Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[SeraphicMirth]

Hello....it's been a long while since I've played! I am dutifully starting to skim/read through the game and get caught up. I am going on vacation soon but will be able to post fairly regularly, though a few days will be infrequent due to plans. I guess that's it for now.

[SeraphicMirth]

Oh, I also wanted to ask...who are the main people under suspicion right now? As I read through, anyone in particular I should keep an eye out for? Just trying to get a general feel for what people are thinking right now.

[SeraphicMirth]

Er...just read the vote count. Nevermind.

[SeraphicMirth]

Oh, I also wanted to ask...who are the main people under suspicion right now?

- Oh i don't like this part of the post at all...

Hmm, why not?

[SeraphicMirth]

lol please keep in mind I haven't played in 5-ish years? I think it would be near useless to meta me. Also....meta is ridiculous stupid. So bogged down by that skimming through. I really don't care how people "usually" play, etc. Don't even try to convince me of anything with arguments like that. Blech. Still catching up.

I am likely not going to have in-depth thoughts when I come out of this, though I will give good consideration and pay more attention to recent game stuff when I go to vote. Skimming 100 pages is terrible...just terrible. Especially now that I have a life with responsibilities.. I am a little sorry I agreed to do this...:-/ lol Trying to be quick, it seems the hang up is on Enomis/me... I am trying to read backward and forward.

Also, my question about the vibe/who is suspect/etc. was harmless. Just wanted to see how/what people chose to summarize (more than the answer), if at all. Seems the response is: let's jump on this innocuous question quickly, twist it, and get another townie out of the way ASAP and easily. Though if you are all convinced Enomis is/I am scum then that makes sense too.

I am quite curious why my position is pegged as scum and who agrees with that and why, subsequently, I am not in the challenge pool then - but maybe some of that will be answered myself as I catch up. I guess we're already in challenge/vote phase of things right now though, so we can talk about me/Enomis later.

Hope to be able to contribute to current events in a bit!

[SeraphicMirth]

Grim & Elyse - who do you think should I vote for? I see you rest on Qwint at the moment, would this be your suggestion?

(still reading....almost there..)

[SeraphicMirth]

Alright...now that I want to rip my eyeballs out...here are my notes. They are probably very disorganized and might not make sense. I just jotted stuff down as I went along, all my random thoughts that came to mind. Most are from the more recent parts of the game - there was really not much to note from the large first part of the game...lots of bickering. Fun...

What is PoE? I'm not up on all the acronymns as it has been so long since I've played.

Wis- I think maybe just poor judgement town
Venmar Town

GrimGroove Town?? I like Grim's post style..need to be skeptical of myself b/c of that. #1790: changed my mind-->scum?? Elyse and Grim both scum?? Thinks Amrun will be lynched --> says amrun-elyse-qwints/AP combo but says "if" amrun is town (grim-scum = knows this) then it's majiffy-enomis-qwints/AP. This means that likely majiffy-enomis (me, town)-qwints/AP are town or mostly town (grim = setting up thought that they are scum). Seems like a way to protect Elyse since there was no danger of amrun turning up scum (from grim's pov if grim is scum). Grim #1999 covering ass?

Scum: NS*conf-grim-elyse-4th?? AP/Mollie? Wis??

Hmm #1987 Elyse puts Grim on scumteam...#2010-20's ish Elyse suspects Grim so maybe not together on my idea of scumteam. Or maybe yes scumteam, obvious Amrun is going to be lynched..Elyse/Grim= fake fight?
Elyse pushes enomis - easy target, doesn't post much.
Grim proposes elyse-qwints-self challenge pool ...elyse and grim = voting qwints. Seem opposing before, somehow come together on qwints

lots of pointing at qwints by grim and elyse -- qwints replaced = easy target? scum tactic?

Wisdom #2129 - yep...something's weird.

Grim late #2130's.. really turning against Elyse. Not sure about Grim-Elyse now. Hmmf.
#2172 - says Elyse
really subtle partnering? Or maybe I am crazy. Or maybe it's just Elyse and Grim is town? agh.
Comes down hard on qwints RE: "surface" not scumhunting, etc. I think qwints is just replacing in a shitty game like I am.

Mollie - scum?? Only replies when directly provoked, made some comment about losing interest in playing scum lately. Not helping out the town at the least.
Elyse- scum?
majiffy- ?? town? wildcard. I like it.
AP- scum? <--- defends NS, pushes Amrun (town) vote, #965 - NS not strong read, "scummy as balls", then says NS = "apathetic town", but still would vote...seems like covering own ass. Not sure. Other posts seem town-driven.


Grim - Points out two more mislynches left. General pro-town action. Calculated or true??
Back and forth on Elyse - picks at her then says town.
I dunno..gut says Elyse-Grim scum pair..why??
Maybe Elyse is the scum and Grim is just waffling around a bit.
Answer to my question: Elyse says vote for Grim.

#2337 - WOW Elyse has it out for enomis. All I can think is easy target! Hasn't been around much, shitty posts, easy to pick apart. Majorly pushing the Enomis idea more than others - may eventually be fairly easy to get others to vote Enomis (me) when challenged. Posts to me "universally scum" though the only one strongly posulating Enomis slot is scum is her.
If I vote Grim = Grim is town, Elyse will be able to go after me/enomis. hmm. nope.
Wisdom also leans strong Enomis. Is currently on Grim-vote.

Leaning Elyse vote. With a Wisdom misled by Elyse.

Note for later: Majiffy wants eno (now me) to hammer elyse. Evaluate with outcome.
--

That's my notes. In this type of situation, I'm going gut/vibes/instincts. I do not possibly have the energy to logically hash everything out in a game this big.

Also, Qwints, I would like to reply to your points at some point. I see what you're saying for most of it but I also disagree/have different interpretations. Especially about the whole meta thing..other games I replaced into were day 1 or 2 lol So..maybe after the vote phase or whatever I'll post my reply. Prefer to stick to topic at hand unless we think my credibility needs to be hashed out/is warranted.

OK so tl;dr - I'm leaning Elyse vote.

[SeraphicMirth]

Yeah they probably don't. And yes, partially because you think I am scum so hard. I know he/I am town so that makes points against you in my mind. I don't think your arguments against me/him are solid at all and you keep pushing it.
And partially on this Elyse-Grim thing I had seen toward the start. That may be an error and I'm basically going off that, as I look back over my notes. At first I thought you were a scum team but now it just kind of seems more like you're scum and Grim town-waffles.

Um...also I just realized you moved your vote off of Qwints and onto Grim. Somehow I missed that. And the part where Grim changed his vote. >.< I just skipped to the VC on that page I guess.

RE: if you flip town, I'm rope. I know. I am in a difficult position because I just started, I kind of suck at mafia in general much less in the middle of this type of game, and it's very hard to tell who is what and I know if I vote town I'm basically done for. But I have to make a decision at some point. So...yeah. I'll save my vote a little bit, see what others say if they can parse my notes at all. Or if not...just...arguments for/against whoever. I dunno.

[SeraphicMirth]

Ugh. Sorry about my notes all. They are really shitty. :-/ It's just too much info for me to do anything logical with. As I said, just have to go off of gut. Which sucks because I'm telling Elyse that I think her arguments against me aren't solid and I don't have solid things to back up my vote. I dunno what to say. It is just where I'm at right now with it. *shrug*

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok now tht I've had some time to sleep on it.. I had originally put Elyse on my scum list because I was thinking that Grim was scum also and protecting her and then by the end somehow I got to Elyse is scum and Grim is town. I need to ISO them I think and go back again an re read the last several pages. I have to really consider this carefully because I am an easy next lynch and if I/we mislynch this one then we're SOL. Succinct input on why one or the other should go would be helpful.

[SeraphicMirth]

I have to go through and look at them again. I am focusing on them since they are the options in the pool. Qwints is also an option but he reads as town to me pretty clearly and his predecessor did not contribute much. I feel like energies against Qwints are just because a replacement is an easy lynch, particularly when the one before them was weak in participation. Plus, the votes are split between Elyse and Grim ATM so by default I have to figure out which is scum for the game to go forward. That's why my notes kind of focus on them and points where they may be town or scum. The challenging thing is interesting...what if we just have all town up there? :-/
Anywho...it is what it is. So yeah I will go over them in more detail again today and really answer your question.

[SeraphicMirth]

Qwints is also an option but he reads as town to me pretty clearly and his predecessor did not contribute much

Then why is he an option other than the obvious fact hes up for lynch >.>

He's....not? I made it pretty clear the sentence before "I am focusing on Grim and Elyse because they are options in the pool". Then clarified that I realize that Qwints is also an option (because he, too is in the lynch pool). I only meant that those are the three in the pool, thus who I have to look at. Then I went on to talk about why I am NOT focusing on him because I don't ACTUALLY think he's an option. If I hadn't have said that, someone would have been like "uh bluh why aren't you considering Qwints? Those two aren't the only options, there's a third person in the lynch pool."

How do you know either of them are scum? HOw much have you read at this point?

I don't...I think I was kind of saying that in my post. The whole point of what I was saying is that these two are who the votes are up for at this point in time and as we can only vote for the three in the pool (one of which I already decided I don't really see a reason to vote for), then I will have to figure out which one to vote for. I would hope that I am voting for scum, hence "I have to figure out which is scum" (or, if I need to be this precise, which one is scummier). Of course, I can't be sure - also why very shortly after that I talked about the possibility of all 3 being town..because who knows?? So, yes, I do not know if either of them are scum. I am pretty sure I made that clear. And, really, no one "knows" who is scum except scum so I couldn't answer that. Just have to do the best I can. To answer your other question: I read all of the pages in one day (yesterday) over multiple sittings. TBH, I skimmed heavily. I came in with full expectations of caring and giving this my all and the first 20 or so pages killed my soul.


Re-reading on Grim, some notes. Be aware, I am reading as if he is scum:
Grim -- I find it interesting that he voted on his partner who turned out to be town. I'm sure this was brought up and hashed out somewhere in the middle. The original premise for this vote was that StrangerCoug was "bland". Okay. Then that whole QT thing happened, which Grim said was a mistake but Grim does seem quite clever and in ISO it seems very well set up to make it look like Coug meant one thing and not another. I think Wis had a great line of questioning about that on Grim and Grim still got away with it. Then "oops I look dumb" afterwards. Can't tell if it's all contrived or real. After that error in lynching his own partner (..just had this thought: if Grim is scum and then would know Coug was not, so off Coug early so that there is less QT interaction to give Grim away??), he then originally defends NS, then gives some prompts to his scum buddy (??) like "oh hey, if he shows up and says something good, I'll reconsider him" like "dude, come get yourself off the hook, let me defend you", even says "last words are in order" at L-1. But I can see him not having an issue voting NS who was marginally participatory and would look good to cover up the "oops" vote on Coug. Then Grim ends up saying he has a "firm scumread" on the Amrun vote, lynching town.
In both town lynching scenarios, Grim espouses some sort of statements like "I will be proven right, when they flip scum! If not, go ahead and lynch me!" Well...maybe we shall.
Also, Grim urged Enomis to hammer Amrun after some people had made it clear he was suspect. So, that would make a great set up for an argument against Enomis/me.

Would like some response to this from Grim or anyone else that has thoughts. I can see Grim as scum, but again...read it that way. I kind of hate mafia because everything is usually circumstantial and you can't prove anything...lol so I dunno. Just what I see at this point.

Going to read ISO on Elyse now.

Also - question for all: is there anyone who DOESN'T think enomis is scum (prior to my replacing)? Even just null? Just trying to see if there's a scum pattern/association around that as well. If it is truly "universal" then it doesn't help me see any sort of pattern that way but thought I'd ask.

p.s. I DON'T WANNA BE THE TIE BREAKER!!! This is a bad deal, yo.

[SeraphicMirth]

In both town lynching scenarios, Grim espouses some sort of statements like "I will be proven right, when they flip scum! If not, go ahead and lynch me!" Well...maybe we shall.

Strike that. I wrote that and had the intention to double check. So I just did. In the first one, he was actually saying it about something very specific -> if Coug had said he didn't say the thing in the QT. So...nevermind that whole point.

[SeraphicMirth]

Ya I havent read that recent wall, but the "I have to decide correctly or else" mentality is not reassuring me of that slots off-chance-of-not-being-scum...ness

Except that it's pretty much true and the reality I am facing so...I dunno what else to say than that. I come into this situation as an easy lynch and there are only two mislynches left. So if I mess up, it's going to come down on me and then that's the game. I am nervous about that responsibility, clearly.

No, there is no assumption that they are scum..that is what I am saying. No one KNOWS who is scum or town except scum. So, no, I don't know. Just trying to decide as best I can...which I guess is what everyone does. As I said, there is the possibility they are all town..how likely? I don't know.
Maybe I am just making obvious statements and that is confusing. Sorry. I'm just talking myself through the facts of the situation I guess. I probably should post less and write out more for myself in my own notes. But I think you are looking way too much into some things I am saying and pulling weird conclusions out. Or maybe I don't get what you're saying either.


Thoughts on Elyse ISO (read as scum):
-1 page thank you mother of God
- Answers questions with question sometimes, or retorts, rather than answering.

Erm... well, actually...Elyse seems legit. Pretty consistent. Also, I agree with her early assessments of Grim that she had. She did not make big irrational/complex pushes against anyone with erroneous arguments...except Enomis/me. But I guess everyone thinks that this slot is scum so that's kind of null then. Doesn't postulate odd reasons why people are scum and is good at poking holes in those who do. Though I suppose that could be a scum tactic as well...except that her explanations/pointing-outs are so damn reasonable. Except for on me but I guess we can talk about that later.

[SeraphicMirth]

Are you guys just done discussing? It kind of seems like the few pages before I replaced in, that is the case and I probably didn't bring up anything that hasn't already been brought up either. So..guess that doesn't help. Maybe it's just vote time.

I'm away for most of the day today due to travel. Might be able to check in tonight.

[SeraphicMirth]

Why? I saw your argument which was a list of her posts that seem pretty solid to me. I don't think she was particularly "trying" to align herself with town. Just seemed like normal town play to me. It really seems that scummy to you?

[SeraphicMirth]

If anyone takes Seraphic off the hook by hammering before she states an opinion, I'm challenging you tomorrow.

My opinion has been stated as of now after ISO I think Grim is scum.

vote: grimgroove

and also yeah idk this game really is a cluster so whatever. That's what I'm going with.

[SeraphicMirth]

I'm kinda tempted to hammer Elyse just because I'm feeling scum are just waiting for Seraphic to hammer Grim.

You might be right. I dunno how to even sort through all this. But I think the arguments against Elyse are weak and she looks pretty solid and consistent in ISO.

[SeraphicMirth]

I am not. I still think Grim comes off not great. Majiffy...hmm..would like to see what he has to say now that she flipped town. Was a weak argument to be pushing in the first place and when asked, he stood by it.

I'll need to read back through some things now that we know Elyse's alignment for sure.

[SeraphicMirth]

I, for one, am satisfied with the Elyse lynch. Didn't hit scum, but whatevz.

Why it is "whatevz"?? There are a lot of scum left and that resulted in a third town lynch. Do you just not care if the town wins or are you scum?

[SeraphicMirth]

Also, Majiffy, your track record of not being on the town lynch vote is extremely poor. What say you?

[SeraphicMirth]

Poorly worded I guess? What I am saying is that every time there's a townie lynched, you have been on the vote. Meaning that you are either terrible at reading who is scum or you are scum.

[SeraphicMirth]

Sorry instead of town lynch vote I should have said "townie".

[SeraphicMirth]

Sorry on my limited posts, I am on vacation and was out most of the day and, unfortunately, most of the day tomorrow. I will have the whole day Tuesday and Wednescay.


I still think Grim is shady as i wrote in my ISO review post and I am also very concerned about Majiffy for being on townie lynchings and offering weak arguments against each of these townies (yes, I see that you were on NS as well, could have been just to point at it later).

[SeraphicMirth]

Majiffy, really..this whole game you are just vague, give statements and then just expect people to believe them for no reason and get pissy when they ask for further clarification/more detailed description/reasoning. I don't get your ambiguity play and I think it is harmful for town.

I'm leaning for a Majiffy vote but I don't want to L-1 right now. I'd like to hear from Grim though as well.

[SeraphicMirth]

Hey sorry again..still on vacation so I've been in and out ..I have had less free time than I anticipated. Anyway I've got an 8 hour drive ahead of me today and a day trip the next day, so I will try to respond sometime Sunday!!

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok my opinion has not changed and I'll just grow some balls lol

vote: majiffy

.
Same reasons as I stated before.

Someone asked me a question but I can't find it. If its important please re quote and I'll remember to check to this page when I get back tonight.

[SeraphicMirth]

I don't feel like we're making any progress right now, and Majiffy's posting has really rubbed me the wrong way today:

Intent to hammer Majiffy

Do you feel that he will give you any information that will change your mind? Because, really, he hasn't done any actual defending nor produced any actual accusations that stand any ground or that are any good. Not that mine are great, but he has been on the wagon to lynch three townies and had just ridiculously weak-sauce argument for Elyse (and probably the others..I ISOed once and already forgot, just overall doesn't actually delve into much detail). He deflects with snarky comments instead of presenting actual arguments. So, just vote it if you feel it, I say. *shrug*

Keeping an eye on Serra, though, as Grim was still sketchy to me due to the whole QT fiasco...but harder to tell when someone replaces in, unfortunately.

[SeraphicMirth]

Do you feel that he will give you any information that will change your mind? Because, really, he hasn't done any actual defending nor produced any actual accusations that stand any ground or that are any good. Not that mine are great, but he has been on the wagon to lynch three townies and had just ridiculously weak-sauce argument for Elyse (and probably the others..I ISOed once and already forgot, just overall doesn't actually delve into much detail).

Protip: Wrong is not a scumtell. Hope this helps.

Yeah, I get that and all....I guess my next thought is: why are you still, then, acting so confident as though we should just go along with who you want to lynch just because you said so/with weak arguments? You have a bad track record this game and I think your play style continues to be harmful to the town in this way - I think that it is scummy to act overconfident about who you think is scum to lynch and provide little explanation with the way you have voted and been wrong thus far. I think if you were really out for town interest, you would make more of an arguments/interpretations to present for consideration. But, like you keep trying to make me aware of...maybe you just always play this way. As I stated earlier on, I don't really care for meta-play arguments so guess that's that.

And before anyone says it, I am aware that Enomis has basically no track record and neither do I really. That part sucks and lowers my credibility for this type of argument but it is really how I see it.

[SeraphicMirth]

Have you read any game with Majiffy? He's actually like this...

Besides Majiffy and me, is there anyone you'd consider for scum?

No, I haven't read any of his games. Maybe I'm wrong then..idk. Still going to stick with my vote.

TBH, a lot of people in this game are all over the place and therefore difficult to read - wis, AP, & mollie in particular I still don't really know how I feel about. So, those are possibilities but I haven't looked at any of them in depth/ISO at this point. Well, I tried to do Mollie but the posts were kind of difficult to read...overall vibe was not enough solid contribution to the game one way or the other...so still didn't have a conclusive feel/read about her.

[SeraphicMirth]

Yeah, I get that and all....I guess my next thought is: why are you still, then, acting so confident as though we should just go along with who you want to lynch just because you said so/with weak arguments? You have a bad track record this game and I think your play style continues to be harmful to the town in this way - I think that it is scummy to act overconfident about who you think is scum to lynch and provide little explanation with the way you have voted and been wrong thus far. I think if you were really out for town interest, you would make more of an arguments/interpretations to present for consideration. But, like you keep trying to make me aware of...maybe you just always play this way. As I stated earlier on, I don't really care for meta-play arguments so guess that's that.

I find it ironic that you're calling me out for weak arguments yet you're trying to lynch me for playstyle reasons while overtly stating that "well maybe you just play this way but I don't care I'm going to vote you for it anyway"... Which is a weak argument and detrimental to the town.

Hmm... sound familiar?

Yeah, I had that realization as I was saying it but I just have a feeling with how it all reads. Maybe you play that way too but your hunches have been off. No one has presented any solid arguments for anyone and this game is hard to play, much less replace into. So...yep. I dunno what else to say. I do think your play style is fishy - whether you play all the time like that or not and in combination with bad reads...while it doesn't necessarily equate to scum, it doesn't mean it's not either. That's all I've got right now. This game is balls so I dunno.

[SeraphicMirth]

Argh. Majiffy's last post was quite the logical, townish post.

unvote

.

I need to ISO the candidates again and see what I'm voting. I'll have to take a closer look at Mollie.

[SeraphicMirth]

Ok I'm back to

vote: majiffy

The one post changed my mind a little because it was the first logical, clearly laid out thing he has written. However, calling mollies statement a lie is exaggerating a bit much! This is another example of what keeps irking me and seems off all the time. So I dunno, I gotta go with my gut.

I did re-look at all 3 up for lynch but I can read scum or town into anyone I feel so I'm kind of at a loss.

[SeraphicMirth]

1) I replaced here as a favor after not playing any form of mafia in years so I don't need your insults and calm the fuck down, kthnx.
2) I interpreted that as she didn't see it when she first read and then re read and realized it? So that is why I think calling it a lie is a bit much. Just because someone interpreted something a different way than you meant it doesn't make it a lie. Why would she point out her own mistake/"lie" if it was intentional?
What I do think is scummy is taking something minor and blowing it out of proportion.

[SeraphicMirth]

know what she said immediately after she said she couldn't find any trace of me looking for her reaction? "jesus christ its right there in the thread".

Wis- this is what I am referring to. Majiffy calls this lying but I don't get why mollie would point out that its "right there" and contradicting her original statement immediately after making it if she was actually lying.

[SeraphicMirth]

Fml.

Also can we please pause and not challenge right away and have some actual discussion and some sort of consensus about it before challenging??

[SeraphicMirth]

I'm curious about qwints and venmar but need to read.

[SeraphicMirth]

No, she should be questioned as well but I'm still confused about that whole exchange so I need to read that again too. I just thinking we wait and question/discuss before challenging that is better because then we are not limited to those in the pool. Though I see what you mean for the potential to get all town in.. Idk. Need to think since obvi I'm not doing so well with my thoughts :-/

[SeraphicMirth]

I just thinking we wait and question/discuss before challenging that is better because then we are not limited to those in the pool.

Wow..sorry on my iPhone. Should read: I was just thinking we should wait and question/discuss before challenging, and that might be better ...(same rest of sentence)

[SeraphicMirth]

Damn. In my initial read through I thought "how is AP getting through everyone's radar?" But since most had him as town I thought I must be wrong. So I left it. Qwints also started to make me suspicious toward the end but I was like "nah" ..lol ohh well. Glad this game is done, it was a real bitch to replace into and I am really very rusty...I was never that great at this to begin with. My apologies for being a "pile of fucking bricks", Majiffy.

Scum were excellent at playing up/into town just running around like chickens with their heads cut off!

Huzzah to all of you who made it through the game start to finish.

[SeraphicMirth]

Meeehhh..we'll see. I'm starting my two first grown-up-professional-career jobs within the next two weeks so life is going to be crazy..i couldn't even give this game the time it needed as is. But thanks