Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[StrangerCoug]

Did you guys have to start while I was asleep?

Reading everything now. If anybody decided to go crazy and challenge somebody before everyone's had a chance to chip in, I'm voting the challenger.

[StrangerCoug]

I need to reprogram my Logitech G510 hotkeys so the Close hotkey isn't so close to the Ctrl key...

#49: Wisdom blows off's Amrun suggestion and attacks her for it.
#56: Continued antagonism from Wisdom against Amrun.
#62: Now Wisdom's devolved into being a jerk.

Pseudo-vote: Wisdom

#75: This is an interesting post by Amrun, but right now I'm reading this as her showing restraint. Pretty townie.
#88: I'm baffled here. Wisdom says he'd do the exact same thing he's doing as

SCUM!?

What exactly is it, then, that doesn't make him scum? And—serious question open to everybody—why would anybody of any alignment say something like this?
#92: Katsuki was town in that game; therefore, using it to argue that Amrun is scum is invalid. At most, it reinforces that you think she's arrogant, which tells me little else.
#96: Context from the OP tells me there are no vengekills. Do you even think your posts through?
#103: Townie post from enomis.
#115: It makes sense that scum would want to start town off on the wrong track. I disagree with you based on Wisdom's reactions to the suggestion, but at this time I don't think you're scum with Wisdom. You're acting more rational than he is.
#136: I do that anytime there's a disproportionately high number of posts before I get a chance to post.
#143: pirate mollie didn't even pass judgment on how experience and skill correlate. The player who signed up for the site first should not be treated as God—I've been here since 2008 and I

STILL

think I could use some work on a few things.
#148: No, she was not. And the post of hers contradicting you doesn't make me the new person to follow. I think

I

have some things that need work.

[StrangerCoug]

#92: Katsuki was town in that game; therefore, using it to argue that Amrun is scum is invalid. At most, it reinforces that you think she's arrogant, which tells me little else.

Tell me I didn't read this
Did you seriously just say that my "omg she will tell us she has a scummy now" was an argument for her being scum?

From what I gather, your posts overall indicate that you think Amrun, as scum, will lead the game to a town loss using her experience to get people to believe that her way is the only correct way. Experienced players will know for a fact that that her way may not necessarily be correct. I believe it serves the purpose it's supposed to, and therefore I believe the plan will work. Other people may have better ideas. If your #92 is not supposed to even

PRETEND

to call Amrun's bluff, then it makes no sense in context.

#96: Context from the OP tells me there are no vengekills. Do you even think your posts through?

Are you even able to read what I'm typing?
I said that the plan about directing the challenges and therefore the lynches is similar to directing vengekills.
Didn't say there are vengekills in this game.

OK then.

#143: pirate mollie didn't even pass judgment on how experience and skill correlate. The player who signed up for the site first should not be treated as God—I've been here since 2008 and I STILL think I could use some work on a few things.

Yeah that wasn't even directed at pirate mollie.
Seriously?

Then whose question/request were you answering? Nobody else said anything where this response would make sense to them.

#148: No, she was not. And the post of hers contradicting you doesn't make me the new person to follow. I think I have some things that need work.

I'm one of the more experienced players in the game.

I am one of the most experienced.
And it is just a basic fact. Sorry if that bothers you.

Yes, she did.

No, she did not. She said she was

ONE OF

the most experienced. She did not claim to be the #1 most experienced, which your dropping "one of" implies. I shouldn't even be arguing semantics with you.

I disagree with you based on Wisdom's reactions to the suggestion

Also this is a very bad thing to do, and please stop doing it if you're town.
You cannot be certain of my alignment, so don't disagree with others based on what you think my alignment is.

And you cannot be certain of Amrun's unless she's scum with you, which is absurd since I don't think scum would want to stage a heated argument with one of their buddies off the bat.

#88: I'm baffled here. Wisdom says he'd do the exact same thing he's doing as SCUM!? What exactly is it, then, that doesn't make him scum?

The fact that I am town, maybe?

And that's supposed to tell me what?

And—serious question open to everybody—why would anybody of any alignment say something like this?

So wait, you don't call me scum for that, you say that.. I don't have an alignment?

It's nonsensical to me as scum, and it's nonsensical to me as town. It's common knowledge you

DO

have an alignment. If you're smart, you can boil it down to a simpler explanation than even this yourself.

The rest don't need addressing, since if I'm reading right you pseudo-voted me for.. being a jerk?
(@SC)

Among other things.

[StrangerCoug]

I know she's not town for that, but she's also not scum for it, which is what you were pushing for her suggestions at the beginning.

She is scum for her suggestions, because scum seek to make these suggestions. It's not about a "this is townie, she did it, she wants to do something townie, she's scum". It's about doing something that scum would do. There's a difference, find it.

Elaborate on this. This is vague.

Then whose question/request were you answering? Nobody else said anything where this response would make sense to them.

Venmar. I even used the exact words he used. It was the post above mollie's.

My bad, then.

No, she did not. She said she was ONE OF the most experienced. She did not claim to be the #1 most experienced, which your dropping "one of" implies. I shouldn't even be arguing semantics with you.

Does it matter if she said the most or one of the most? That's besides the point I was making.

It matters to the extent that you should be correctly representing what people are saying, but beyond that, no. Neither version of her statement is in and of itself grounds for considering her scummy.

And you cannot be certain of Amrun's unless she's scum with you, which is absurd since I don't think scum would want to stage a heated argument with one of their buddies off the bat.

That's true; do you see me stating that I disagree with people because of Amrun's reactions? Please don't do that.

Amrun is not the person whose reactions I have been talking about.

And that's supposed to tell me what?

I don't know, what was the point of the question?
Amrun tried to say that she towntells me because I wouldn't argue with her as scum.
I told her that this is a bad reason to towntell me because I would do that as scum too.

It makes no sense to me to argue against a towntell because you do it as scum specifically. I admit this may be your wording (saying you'd do something "as any/either alignment" would not have sent me in a tailspin), but I'm trying to get into the mentality you were in when you made that post. This is not to say that all stated townread reasons are valid, though—buddying is a valid scumtell, though not what I'm seeing going on.

And you're asking "why did you say that/what makes you town" or something, so I don't know what answer you really expect.

THAT

part was rhetorical.

[StrangerCoug]

Amrun is not the person whose reactions I have been talking about.

You were talking about my reactions; I used it as a parallel to tell you that despite finding Amrun scum at the time, I don't let it influence my read on others.

This makes better sense.

[StrangerCoug]

Elaborate on this. This is vague.

I have done that already when she first suggested it; I expect such plans to come from scum, because it is a good way to gain early towncred.
For example, in Polygamist mafia, my last scum game, I planned on opposing a pair massclaim because that would appear town-sided and I specifically told my scumbuddies that we should do that because it would earn us towncred.
Maybe I am just judging by what I would do as scum, but at the time I could really see her being scum doing that.
Now I don't so much, because the detailed version of her plan looks much better, and she probably towntelled with the 3scum thing.

I acknowledge that scum want to get towncred early, but that's still an awfully circumstantial reason to be attacking Amrun. If the plan, when executed, sets town on the wrong foot, then it can be understood as scummy.

And if we're going to use what we've done as scum before to argue against stuff being towntells, I've planted fake townslips before. This post comes to mind—from the town's perspective, qwintz's cop result was ambiguously worded as to the target, but as scum, I already knew the answer to my question.

[StrangerCoug]

No.

[StrangerCoug]

No, other than the fact our votes won't be counted; will we do it ourselves?

Yes, which is why I said we should all do it in a particular way that's easy to keep track of. It doesn't have to be the way I suggested. Perhaps someone else has a better/easier idea.

IMO, it should, ideally, distinguish between real votes that do count and fake votes that do not count. That way there's no confusion and when we look at people in ISO we don't have to wonder.

I was planning (at least for myself) to make this clear by using

Pseudo-vote: (insert player here)

for votes that are not supposed to count and VOTE: (insert player here) for votes that do.

No.

Then what was the point of bringing up past fake towntells?

Mainly as a warning. I have to be aware of the very possibility I hinted at, too.

[StrangerCoug]

I like the "nominate" idea. More elegant than my method.

[StrangerCoug]

also wis ran away after I pointed out how he likes to pick on girls when he is scum so I am thinking it is likely true

If he stopped posting across the site as a whole when you said that, then that's not likely to be a tell. It's much too soon to accuse people of avoiding the thread at this stage anyway—it hasn't been 24 hours yet.

[StrangerCoug]

Coug, I was here answering to your quote walls, remember? What are you talking about?

I was demonstrating the invalidity pirate mollie's argument.

also wis ran away after I pointed out how he likes to pick on girls when he is scum so I am thinking it is likely true

If he stopped posting across the site as a whole when you said that, then that's not likely to be a tell. It's much too soon to accuse people of avoiding the thread at this stage anyway—it hasn't been 24 hours yet.

this is the second time you have ticked my scumdar coug. I am pushing wis so I can get a read off of him all your doing wking him which is interfering with that process.

"wking" him? Could you type in English and not txtspeak please?

[StrangerCoug]

wking means whiteknighting

do I need to explain it further?

No.

[StrangerCoug]

Will need to IC StrangerCough later,

Aww, are the allergies flaring up again?

I'd like to know how my partner is concerned about me when he has the energy to put up a case.

[StrangerCoug]

@Amrun: sorry, I missed the fact you already answered this question on this page.

Will need to IC StrangerCough later,

Aww, are the allergies flaring up again?

I'd like to know how my partner is concerned about me when he has the energy to put up a case.

I meant ISO, sorry.

That, too, but the reference was to you adding an H after my name.

Why do you assume I'll have a case, and that I'm not just talking about gut?

his posts gave me a bad vibe, but something told me it would be time-intensive to point out the why's and whats, so I'll keep that for a bit later when I got more energy for this game again.

If it turns out to be just gut, OK, but the phrasing of your post indicates that it "just being gut" is on the unlikely side.

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, I thought you could challenge teammates? Darn it, AP is my partner.

*sob* *sob*

You can always challenge another person you suspect of being scum...

I bet half this playerlist didnt know you couldn't challenge your partner.

Are you for real now?
Challenge goes from team to team, how the fuck do you challenge your own team?
It takes so much brain to understand that?
You want me to believe that there are people who failed to understand something this simple?

You portray Venmar as being an idiot for this post, yet you don't portray Amrun as (as much of) an idiot for forgetting there are four scum? The only time you address Amrun saying the wrong number, you say it's a possible, though potentially fake, towntell. Why are you harder on Venmar?

I repeated myself only once, when asking about the use of the QT's. I'll use it to my best abilities, or just hope StrangerCoug can use it better and secure a warranted town-read on me.
They seem incessant because I'm making the most of my time online. I don't see the link between "uselessness" and "persistence".
Rest assured I'm trying to determine alignment with these questions. You have your ways and I have mine. Trying to get a feel of the people and the game mechanics, while at the same time establishing my presence here.

I don't like the general ambiance in this topic

. Very long toes and very little goodwill/patience.

newsflash: I don't care

I have very little patience with newbs (although it was oddly recommended that I apply for IC status) unless I am mentoring them which is why I stay out of rome unless asked by a mod and I have zero patience or goodwill for someone who tries to dictate my play. you do not get to control the tone of this convo cos it is a 2 way street and there are 2 different people in it and we all have our ways. mafia is not all fluffy bunnies and roses if you want a site that likes that kind of shit in their mafia games I can recommend one.

I don't see Grimgroove's post as remotely newbish, even though yes, he is new. Where is he trying to control the conversation? Where is he trying to control how you are playing? This is quite a bit of an overreaction to a simple post.

I want you to post which posts you find scummy and explain why. you don't just get to sit back and call all of my posts until p6 scummy unless you can think of a scum motivation for doing so. fluff posts are alignment neutral unless they persist throughout the game.

You don't get to post all fluff for six pages. In most games there is serious discussion by then, and I would expect posts to be made accordingly.

what is weird is that you read on me should have progressed as you got caught up with the game. and it hasn't. you are still scumreading me cos of early posts.

Though he should take later posts into consideration, as well, that does not make the early game irrelevant.

FoS: pirate mollie

[StrangerCoug]

Answers my question.

[StrangerCoug]

okay so what serious discussion do you think was going on that I should have been responding to? tbh when this game started I had just had a margarita and was feeling pretty light hearted. I interacted with ap and he didn't seem nervous nor uncomfortable so I was leaning town on him. I pushed him a bit in order to solidify the read and I think his "why is mollie freaking out on me" post seems genuine. his reads and the logic for them are terribad IMO but terribad reads do not make him scum. he is unsure/ leaning town at the mo but I am expecting him to do some stuff before I call him town.

What did you think of Amrun's plan at the time? That was the big topic of the day.

I agree with you, though, that not everything you did page 6 was inherently useless. For example, some of your posts pre-page 6 talk about your uncertainty about how this setup works, which I'm treating as null—the challenge mechanic, as has been demonstrated, is not something everybody understood at first pass-through. I certainly didn't entirely get it when I first read about it in the queue.

what is weird is that you read on me should have progressed as you got caught up with the game. and it hasn't. you are still scumreading me cos of early posts.

Though he should take later posts into consideration, as well, that does not make the early game irrelevant.

FoS: pirate mollie

I never said it was irrelevant. where did you get that? I said I found it weird that groovey kid's read on me had not progressed. scum don't take in new info and assimilate it and work from there. they instead find flawed reasons for remaining sticky with their reads.

I misunderstood what you were saying in your post—I thought that was what was implied by your post. If you think he's overly focusing on your play in one part of the game, that's a legitimate concern.

[StrangerCoug]

Challenge: Silver Snakes

Both are scum, so keep calm and vote on.

VOTE: Grimgroove

We agreed that we would come to a consensus on challenging and neither of us have been nominated. I'm personally fine with either of you going now, but since you have gone against the agreed upon plan, I think the more useful spot to put my vote is on you.

VOTE: Majiffy

[StrangerCoug]

I'm personally fine with either of you going now,

Could you clarify who you mean by "either of you", and the reasons for why you don't care about who goes?

If we all end up as townreads after all of this, I agree it's Majiffy's head that should be rolling. But I want to hear what he has to say for himself once he sobers up.

The Blue Barracudas. pirate mollie is actually the one I'm more confident in (see #410 for my case), but Amrun explained—

ad nauseam

, it feels like, though it doesn't affect my read on her either way—why what Majiffy's doing is a bad idea for the town and helps scum. Reactions tell me the lack of cohesion has left a lot of people without good places for their votes—what I'm gathering is that it was the Purple Parrots, if anybody yet, that should have been challenged.

[StrangerCoug]

We agreed that we would come to a consensus on challenging and neither of us have been nominated. I'm personally fine with either of you going now, but since you have gone against the agreed upon plan, I think the more useful spot to put my vote is on you.

Could you take any less responsibility for your vote?

I

AM

taking responsibility. I don't have a scum read on my partner, and while I'll happily switch to pirate mollie, there aren't that many people who thinks he's scum right now. Which leaves Majiffy.

[StrangerCoug]

"What I'm gathering" was supposed to indicate that it was a summary of the reactions to the challenge. It was not supposed to reflect my opinion, and you have stopped acting like a fish out of water for awhile now. That I am effectively sheeping Amrun is conceded, however—she came up with the plan Majiffy went against in the first place.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Wisdom is voting me, not Majiffy.

[StrangerCoug]

Wisdom can erase his name from my scumlist.

I would like both Venmar and enomis to explain their votes on me, even if the explanation is just an instruction to me to read particular posts. I don't like fighting in the dark, and I hate the lack of cohesion overall.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm just not comfortable with lynching ANYONE in that fcking lynch pool right now, at least DEFINITELY not today.

My vote is just pure gut SC and PoE. I think Majiffy is town ( but stupid for his challenge ), I think PM is town, and i'm leaning town on Grim, which leaves you odd one out.

Fair enough. Very few people seem to like this lynch pool.

The null-leaning-scum on StrangerCoug I can't quite explain, and it seems few people can. It's gut. I sucks, especially for StrangerCoug who can't possibly defend himself against that, but it is what it is. He seems too "bland" somehow, rarely sticking out. Everything seems so correct in his posts, almost too correct. It just doesn't feelv ery natural. Also the lack of any visible emotion when he saw the challenge is weird. He seemed more intent to show he didn't lose his cool over anything else.

I believed keeping my cool the best I can was a good thing to do. That simple.

@SC:
You are scummy because you listed mollie as scum yet proceeded to vote majiffy. You didn't even

ATTEMPT

to convince people why mollie is scummy. What i see are you using grim's point about why mollie is scummy and they aren't even strong. Another reason is poe. Also, i don't like some of your posts. They are scummy. One example is this:

"What I'm gathering" was supposed to indicate that it was a summary of the reactions to the challenge. It was not supposed to reflect my opinion, and you have stopped acting like a fish out of water for awhile now. That I am effectively sheeping Amrun is conceded, however—she came up with the plan Majiffy went against in the first place.

I'm probably not the person you want on your debate team, unfortunately. If I'm not persuasive, then I'm not persuasive, and I have no control over what people ultimately think.

[StrangerCoug]

What happened to make you feel so confident Coug is scum.

Weak wagon hop on a perceived easy mislynch.

You are not an "easy mislynch". I've seen you play very well, and except for what I see as the fatal flaw, you still are now.

StrangerCoug isn't really trying to defend himself. In the QT he practically ackowledged to be giving up. Some last words from his part would be good, but

I'm declaring intent to hammer

.

Not very many people were happy with this lynch pool and there wasn't much legitimate stuff for me to defend. I honestly saw your intent to hammer as a desire to move along when I read it, but now you're seeing my post in the QT as a big deal. I disagree that the request to keep posting in the QT after I die is an appeal to emotion. First of all, why is it illegitimate to want to know what my neighbor thinks of the game? I'm aware of people sharing a QT (often scum, but beside the point) where the QT got new posts despite the poster being the only person in the QuickTopic alive. Second of all, if I'm scum and you're town, then what would I gain from the QT that I couldn't gain from the thread post-mortem? You're reacting to my request suspiciously, Grimgroove.

UNVOTE: Majiffy
VOTE: Grimgroove

[StrangerCoug]

Why would you care what Grimgroove thinks of the game after you die? I don't get it.

I want his reads. It's pretty simple.

I'm aware of people sharing a QT (often scum, but beside the point) where the QT got new posts despite the poster being the only person in the QuickTopic alive.

The only occasion that happens is the last scum alive posting their thoughts in the QT, for people to read afterwards (and even that usually only happens in Newbies, I think)

It's not inconceivable for neighbors, which we all effectively are, or masons to post thoughts after one of them dies, too. And I've seen the last scum remaining posting thoughts in the QT in non-newbies (and I was his scumbuddy in one of them, I believe). What exactly is throwing you for a loop here?

The aim of your request was not that I would keep posting in the QT, this was not your goal. The aim of your request was that I would start reading you as town.
This is a set-up, whichever way you turn it. The way this is being turned against me is probably an unexpected bonus of what you were trying to do, but yes, you're scum. It's obvious to me now.

That really does not answer my question. "The aim of your request was that I would start reading you as town"? I should be convincing everybody I'm town in the first place. Is that not, then, the aim of everything else I've been doing, even though they haven't all been effective?

And to add to that question in bold: What would you gain as any alignment?

I would gain the potential to glean at why you're doing what you're doing. If I flipped scum, you could simply deny me that potential as I had posed a threat—I honestly don't see the QT continuing to be used if at least one of us is scum and dies. (Which I think begs the question to everybody else why the hell we're bothering with our own QT if we're both scum, but we're not.)

[StrangerCoug]

How would my being dead hurt reading my partner's QT to see what he puts there?

[StrangerCoug]

You are not an "easy mislynch". I've seen you play very well, and except for what I see as the fatal flaw, you still are now.

So going against an agreed-upon plan by the majority of players in the game, in favor of forcing unwanted 2v2 amongst players not in the scumpools of most players, and eliciting an emotional backlash against such play isn't going to set up a favorable environment for a mislynch?[/quote]
The impression I got from your post is that you think I think you're a village idiot, which you and I know you're not.

I'm sure you can explain my wagon actually competing with yours, then, as no one had really stated a scum read on me and there had been talks of you being read as scummy by a few players.

Basically a lot of Amrun-sheeping going on.

My show's coming on; I'll elaborate later.

[StrangerCoug]

Basically a lot of Amrun-sheeping going on.

Yes blindly sheep the person who is thinking emotionally. I can't wait for you to explain this clearly logical move from a town POV.

You asked me to explain why the wagon on you was competing against the wagon on me. You did not ask for my reason in particular, and you did not ask me why I expected yours to compete against mine.

Sc, eh. I thought he was scum in Switchboard and I was wrong and hes doing similar things here.

I was killed in Switchboard Mafia for claiming to think it was role madness. I would think that would stand out in the memories of the people who played it, but you weren't scum in that game either and it's been almost a year.

[StrangerCoug]

Yes, I asked you to explain that. And you answered with "lol sheeping Amrun", which implies that

your

vote was sheeping Amrun. So now I am asking you to justify sheeping an emotionally charged, irrational vote blindly.

We had a lot of similar thinking about your challenge. I saw no reason to reject her thinking, especially not her emotions, which I think her legitimate. Agreeing with people is not scummy; it's what gives us progress in this game.

It's also funny that you're yelling at me for sheeping Amrun when you tried to get her to sheep you when you voted me.

[StrangerCoug]

Which thinking would that be, that led her to voting me, and why are they legitimate? Please offer quotes from Amrun's posts to support your argument.

Now the whole town is forced to vote out of a pool we would not have chosen organically.

This was the tipping point for me.

There were actions he could have taken that weren't the plan that I didn't find scummy. This wasn't one of them. It strong arms the town into doing something they don't want to do and presenting them with only one likely option who is a newbie and likely to crack under pressure no matter the alignment.

Posted after my vote, but fits the "we were thinking the same thing" defense.

It's also funny that you're yelling at me for sheeping Amrun when you tried to get her to sheep you when you voted me.

Considering I have reasons for voting you, and Amrun was voting me out of emotionally blinded spite, you're making a shit comparison.

Do you think Amrun is scummy? Would it matter in terms of your reads which one she was voting? Her reactions are understandable and your trying to use Amrun's emotions to illegitimize her vote is noted. The two posts of hers that I quoted above are almost ten hours apart, which would be a lot of time for "heat of the moment" emotions to go away. So I don't buy emotional blindness.

[StrangerCoug]

Which thinking would that be, that led her to voting me, and why are they legitimate? Please offer quotes from Amrun's posts to support your argument.

Now the whole town is forced to vote out of a pool we would not have chosen organically.

This was the tipping point for me.

So spite. What a phenomenal argument.

There were actions he could have taken that weren't the plan that I didn't find scummy. This wasn't one of them. It strong arms the town into doing something they don't want to do and presenting them with only one likely option who is a newbie and likely to crack under pressure no matter the alignment.

Posted after my vote, but fits the "we were thinking the same thing" defense.

This is a false statement. There are 4 options, 3 of whom are

not

newbies. Furthermore, it pushes scum into the same kind of situation, except they have to now

anticipate

where town is going to go, and hope it's the right choice. Ergo my plan trumps Amrun's plan, and she's going to be butthurt all game over that.

Neither of us claimed all four of us in the lynch pool were newbies. She claimed that you were picking on the one of the four who was because he was the most likely to crack. Trying to portray Amrun as making a broad generalization all three of us know for a fact is not true and was not what she said is ridiculous.

UNVOTE: Grimgroove
VOTE: Majiffy
Show me the Majiffy I know and not some farce that twists the words of somebody mad at him.

[StrangerCoug]

I think the town caused its own destruction here, though to be fair to the Mafia, I think I had only pirate_mollie caught.