Newbie 1419 - GAME OVER

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomma8.

who the hell is this

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Verbs

JKM, I cannot see a seasoned player doing that as scum to break out of RVS. The sign would be neon, huge and hard to shake. Look at the results the gambit achieved, the game was moving slowly but now we have active posters and FoSes starting up. Yeah, it's not perfect town read but it's enough to give him a slight town read.

on the other hand, why would a town player do something like that? its directing all of the current suspicion at himself when it doesn't need to be. he knows that he's not scum = waste of time unless scum obviously screws the pooch. what do you think?

I see you trying to erode Titus's townread on m-m without really taking a position on m-m. Which scenario do you think is the most likely? Is he town or scum?

M-M's supposed gambit aside, I do have a small fos on titus. His actions seem too kind and pro-town to me, and too much WIFOM for my taste. While I appreciate him helping the newer players, in a game like Mafia where deceit and distrust is not uncommon, I find it a little off-putting.

Assume she is scum and this is how she plays. How do you figure she would respond to the m-m situation as town?

[Nachomamma8]

i have more of a scum vibe from mail currently; if we assume that he knows what he's doing (as per his comments regarding other games he's played in), and we assume that he is town, his actions just don't make sense to me.

Do they make sense from a scum perspective?

Nacho

Please don't tell me you're scum

I won't!

[Nachomamma8]

And what is it that they gain? Attention?

[Nachomamma8]

But being more of a pro-town move doesn't make it any less scummy.

Sort of does, especially when you can't explain the scum motivation for a move like that.

The only attention I could see the mafia wanting is a pro-town read.

True. Do you think m-m's gambit accomplishes this? I don't.

Like it's been mentioned before, M-M could have been avoiding the random lynch.

How?

Mostly because the way they have been playing seems suspicious or it's rubbing me the wrong way.

What made you lean scum on M-M? You didn't feel that way before.

@ Nacho What do you think of a Verbs-Mail scumteam? Verbs-Titus? Everyone else can answer this too tbh but I want Nacho's opinion foremost.

mail-verbs doesn't make much sense as a scumteam. Titus-Verbs would make a little more sense, but I have a townread on Titus at the moment so I don't favor it much.

And what is it that they gain? Attention?

here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

How is bringing all the pressure on mail a good thing for mafia? How does it allow scum avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit when you can call out people for having safe/easy opinions? The third negative is true but I don't see how M-M's posts accomplish that purpose at all if he is scum.

He clearly isn't responding to the pressure I'm totally placing on him by nakedvoting him because he's totally posted since said vote

Why are you worried about votes on Nacho's slot?

I wasn't planning on responding. Did you expect me to?

Brian, it's practical and almost expected due to site-meta to always have a vote down on one of your scumreads - Perhaps if you vote Mail with me he will be encouraged to actually post content.

More content from M-M and Nacho is what I desire most right now, so I think I will take you up on your offer. I didn't realize having the vote active on someone was so important.

VOTE: M-M

It's good and well that you want everybody to post content, but who do you want to die?

[Nachomamma8]

1) I don't appreciate the self-vote (anti-town move)
2) I want to pressure him in defending himself and creating more content

Your last post of analysis was excellent but this post is lacking a bit. In order to win these games, you need to be able to distinguish between anti-town and scum, and there are other ways to pressure a player and get them to speak (ways that are much more effective!). So, you've made a distinction on mail as town over scum. Now it's time to find a viable scum target and push; if you can't find one, you're probably not looking hard enough. If you want mail to produce content, best way to do that is by asking him questions or requesting a prod (don't abuse the latter). Bouncing reads off a town-read can be good for your reads AND can help you sort that townread from leaning town to probably town to definitely town.

a. there are two mafia in the game right now. assuming that mail is one of them, this means that there is a lot less pressure on his ally due to the fact that mail is so high up on peoples radar.

But that would mean that mail is the leading member of the scumteam. Do you think that's the case?

b. how do you differentiate between a townie with a safe opinion on the gambit and scum with the same?

Same way you differentiate between a townie with a safe opinion on a bandwagon and scum with the same. Does it make sense logically, is the position opportunistic, etc.

c. surviving such a controversial opening has the direct impact of painting mail's future actions in a different light. in life we have opinions on people by taking into account all the information that we know about them and this can influence us, even inadvertently. if mail gets past this with little suspicion, it can make slips that are not as big/obvious seem smaller/less significant in the later game.

If he doesn't get past this, he's a day 1 lynch and his partner is pretty much screwed. Thus, if he IS mafia and pulling a gambit like that, it's likely that he believes he is good enough to dig himself out of the hole he creates. And if he's good enough to do that, why not avoid digging a hole like that in the first place?

No

But I love how it made Shii respond

Me too.

From what?

Also, if you have any assumptions regarding jailors and roleblockers, mention them now. When I came here, assuming the wrong things greatly derailed my first scum game as jkmatthews can attest.

Titus, yeah that really was your undoing in that game. So... if you're town you'd think it was possible m-m was scum... so why give this friendly bit of advice to help scum not slip?

This is a newbie game to help people understand the mechanics. It would feel greatly wrong to take advantage of a newbie's deficiencies in a newbie game when that happened to myself and I felt it was a little unfair. So yeah, I have no hard feelings but it doesn't mean I need to recreate the cycle.

I liked Titus's general response to M-M. She avoiding taking the easy route and capitalizing on the surface scummy behavior, which I really do dig. She was also willing to give advice to a newbie on how to play scum which is more likely to be coming from town than scum, believe it or not. There's no real motivation to tell your scumpartner something like that when you could just tell them pre-game, meaning that I can't see a reason for Titus to want to clarify something like that except for the reason she gave. I also really dug the reach out to Brian (we're both logical players meaning if you're town i'll see it eventually) because it has nice trajectory with her thoughts on Brian thus far and is also one of those moves that townies do more than scumbags.

Reading through this again, I dislike how quantified the logic is here. Did you think through these and say to yourself 'Okay, this and this makes it town, but this, this and this makes it scummy, they are all equally valued in terms of scummyness/townyness.'?

Is it weird that the logic is quantified to shit? Yes.
Is it scummy? That's the question I ask myself as I watch the sunset at night.

Verbs/Titus scumteam, wrap it up and ship it to grandma.

I don't ship broken things to my grandma.

I'll this just in case. Don't just vote verbs. Please declare intent and allow him to make a case. Early mislynches will only serve to hurt us in the long run.

Thanks for being useful!

Just because I haven't made a post that consolidates all my thoughts, I'd be surprised if you couldn't figure out where I stood with most people.

I can't.

Even if he IS scum we have NOTHING to go off of yet, and the day just started.

?

I'm willing to wager his buddy already is bussing him, but I can't tell who it is thus far because of how fast everyone jumps down his throat.

!
!!
!!!

[Nachomamma8]

I'm very glad people had the same problems with JKM I did. I'm very confused how I'm the first one on his wagon.

Vote: JKMatthews

[Nachomamma8]

i am not sure what you mean by leading member here

the stronger member of the scumteam, in other words.

that he believed the reward would be worth the initial level of risk.

right. but where the reward is a bit philosophical, intangible, distant, the risk is obvious and very real, meaning it's more likely to be coming from town. do you see where I'm coming from on that?

I'm very glad people had the same problems with JKM I did. I'm very confused how I'm the first one on his wagon.

Vote: JKMatthews

can you identify some of his posts that sparked you the wrong way? i read through your iso and you don't directly mention him much.

#196 was the worst, but all posts after #183 were pretty solidly scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

i agree with everything in italics however i am not sure that the bold section can be stated with confidence.

not with confidence, no.

Ok, so I have something overwhelmingly embarrassing to admit. I thought Verbs was the one replacing out based on a brief look at the avatar rather than the poster name. Verbs posting all these responses confused the hell out of me, and so I've gone back and noticed it was m-m. Those posts were all from the mindset that Verbs was replacing out, and a fear of the replacement getting a clean slate of "oh I can't justify my predecessor's actions" that tends to happen. Don't take this to mean I don't still think Verbs is scum, it's just I don't think the lynch is as big a deal. Also hopefully it explains the "get the replacement to claim" confusion... sorry guys

I gathered that from your initial posting. I don't understand why a replacement gives such a sense of urgency, though; what things has Verbs done that you need to be explained? You don't seem to ask many followup questions now that you know he's here to stay.

Why is it suspicious that I'd be happy to see you lynched while not giving much regard to you maybe flipping town.

Your entire concern was a replacement coming in and not having to explain Verbs's actions. This shouldn't be a problem at all if Verbs is town, right? So it's suspicious you wanted the lynch before we determined if the replacement was town; your fear seemed to be that you would lose the Verbs mislynch and not that the Verbs slot would get away as scum.

I agree it's odd that nobody's voted for me despite all the accusation... do you feel like that makes me more or less likely scum? How about notscience and Titus?

I don't feel the votes on you make you less or more likely to be scum. I don't think NS and Titus not voting you is a big deal, just strange.

You didn't ever say "I think the way JKM is pushing the lynch is suspicious", you said "Hey Nacho, can you explain your reasons for suspecting JKM?", then borrowed them.

What reasoning did I give him to sheep?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't feel town would come up with this method of deciding on who is scummy and who isn't, do you get what I'm saying?

I do. My hesitation lies in the fact that it could be something that could be "objective" and the fact that he isn't using those reasons to vote m-m, only to figure out whether the gambit is scum-oriented or town oriented.

Nacho, Brian, what do you think about Gaiden? notscience?

notscience seems town so far, I generally understand his thought process so far even if we only see flashes of it. I can talk about it if you'd like, but I think that he'll be an easier player to sort out D2 when I'm likely dead and he's forced to take more of a leading role. What I will say is I did like his suspicion of Verbs while attacking the wagon itself, and I did like that he picked up on scummy-JKM before anyone else.

Gaiden is more null, hasn't really engaged the game in any significant way (where I feel that at this point, Verbs actually has). He is a very reactive player and his votes have been opportunistic, so I'd lean scum for now but nothing really magical has stood out to me.

It was simply my way of encouraging those who were suspicious to remain suspicious

So you took the route of "have the replacement claim and then kill the slot" as opposed to pushing the replacement after they come in...? That's a hard pill to swallow, honestly.

VOTE: shii

this vote pretty much just sucks.

[Nachomamma8]

shii is town and you should have figured that out five pages ago.

[Nachomamma8]

then you probably should have brought that up 8 pages ago instead of now.
and you should probably look at the information that Shii's produced since then and analyze it or comments on it because the point you have now is outdated and wasn't that good initially.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I've seen these lynches before.

They tend to hit town.

figuring whether a lynch is going to hit town or scum based on wagon speed is not good either, notscience.

JKM's slot is probs town

still no.

[Nachomamma8]

starting to lose faith in notscience. whereas i was earlier ok with his play because he sometimes does things like this, his current play is characterized as a bunch of weak white knighting and he is a hell of a lot better than this. currently confused why there aren't more votes on JKM, though.

[Nachomamma8]

it's a bit more likely that new guy is JKM's partner, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Me and DP in 1354- Both almost universal scumreads, both flip town

universal scumreads are also sometimes scum.

[Nachomamma8]

and lately i get paranoid of you when you are impossible to tie down. right now you're pushing against the grain when there is no reason to push back and that doesn't reduce chances of us lynching a scummy looking universal scumread, it just increases the chances we're going to make a stupid lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

it means that you're floating around and aren't accomplishing things like you could be doing.

[Nachomamma8]

wagons or sorting people, generally. your vote at the moment doesn't seem to be doing either.

[Nachomamma8]

well put it to something. your early vote on me was good because you were sorting me out.
you know there is at least one scum in the Verbs wagon + Verbs, so sort out people from there until you find scum you're confident in.
or help me sort Bert!

any of these are better than what you're doing now.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi everyone!

It is always darkest before dawn...

Let's find scum!

this doesn't seem like a bert-town entrance, this was subtle and didn't include you stomping over the thread everywhere

[Nachomamma8]

i'm not gonna lynch you right now but i am gonna sit on my ass on wait for you to do your thing

[Nachomamma8]

although throwing my failures in my face is always reassuring <3

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: phokdapolees

[Nachomamma8]

NS, for what it's worth, I'm completely reassured about you.

[Nachomamma8]

wat

why

you were aggressive w/me about me being wrong about you, you showed some good paranoia (not Maki paranoia) about universal townread being town, he actually WAS town, and you backed off at the right time.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: phokdapolees

Why, and why are you now "completely reassured" about notscience?

I think you're scum because your reads list was extremely safe. Reads that are controversial (Titus and Verbs) are put as null and null-scum, you sheeped reasoning on JKM to a T and you had some weak suspicion on NS for "inactivity" which, as he noted, was completely inaccurate. Even your townread on Flammus (town on his play, scummy on the gambit) pretty much reflects public opinion. Generate some original content.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh dear Nacho, you deceptive little rascal, you are here warping people’s minds aren’t you, AREN’T YOU

controlling site meta, one newbie at a time.

[Nachomamma8]

So then why didn't you call me out earlier for it instead of waiting until now, way after that list was made? All I was doing in that post was stating my opinions, maybe some of them were aligned with the majority, but that was all what I thought so far.

I called you out for a past post because I no longer wanted to lynch the JKM slot. Did you expect me not to reanalyze my reads? Did you expect your post to be safe from scrutiny just because it was in the past?

[Nachomamma8]

Who let me nacho and bert be town together again

gotta love it when random number gods fuck scum's shit up before the game is already started

[Nachomamma8]

I bet there is a reason you read JK as scum here but not in 213

yeah.
JKM's play here was different from his play in earlygame 213, but similar to his play in lylo right before he replaced out. so i was left in a bit of a predicament before you came in the thread.

[Nachomamma8]

surviving to Day 3 in a newbie game is generally a pretty reliable tell if i seem to be playing decently.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, and you guys totally missed me freaking out cuz I thot I hammered an L-1.

i'm sort of sad you didn't post this for entertainment value alone

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho Who's the scum team right now for you? In case you fly out into the sunset, we need to win it for you but also be mindful of people sheeping your reads for ill-advised reasons

titus and fuckthepolice

[Nachomamma8]

the person you're declaring intent to hammer on is fuckthepolice (phokdapolees).
on a related note, i'm glad that this playerlist has a healthy amount of disdain for the authorities.

[Nachomamma8]

I am thinking this guy is an epicly bad newbie but it seems like it's him or no lynch. This doesn't read newbie scum though. I will hammer when I leave to go to bed. I won't be back before then and we need a day 1 lynch.

Bert isn't scum. Give me a scumteam that you can believe in with that knowledge in mind.

[Nachomamma8]

hell yeah i'm pretty fucking down with this lynch don't you ruin it for me

[Nachomamma8]

don't you dare bert

[Nachomamma8]

I'm fine with Phok. Titus is the bigger threat, that's why I was making sure.

phok is scum, titus dies.
phok is town, reanalyze.

[Nachomamma8]

I know you don't like Bert as scum but he hasn't done anything that would distinguish himself from JKM other than repeatedly say he's town.

bert isn't scum, try again.
if you need me to say this is a "hypothetical" then consider it said.

[Nachomamma8]

Hypothetically, Verbs and Brian Skies.

just because they are your two remaining suspects, or is there a logic to that?

[Nachomamma8]

I am thinking this guy is an epicly bad newbie but it seems like it's him or no lynch. This doesn't read newbie scum though. I will hammer when I leave to go to bed. I won't be back before then and we need a day 1 lynch.

Nacho, this post by Titus sorta hints to me that Titus knows Phok will flip town. That's why I got second thoughts for a minute there

i picked up on that too and it made me a bit afraid.

[Nachomamma8]

but then titus posted something that just seemed town and i breathed a little more evenly.

[Nachomamma8]

I guess if there's any chance of saving an innocent townie (aka me) I'll vote for Titus. UNVOTE: Verbs VOTE: Titus Anyway, I'm headed to bed now. Hopefully you guys make the right choice and don't lynch me.

bert i probably would have cried if anything else but this was lynched today

[Nachomamma8]

we're in a pretty good position after a day 1 scumlynch so i wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Nachomamma8]

if phok flips scum, titus or verbs should be targetted by the jailkeeper (or whoever you think is scum, really).

[Nachomamma8]

it's OK if i die and you guys get some good information out of it!

[Nachomamma8]

WHO THE FUCK KILLED BERT

[Nachomamma8]

jailkeeper/tracker/cop should have results today, please announce! i hope you targetted one of titus/verbs so we know who to lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

so i'm guessing you're not the PR.
which one of Titus/Verbs do you suspect more?
and did YOU kill the love of my life last night?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Titus

[Nachomamma8]

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[Nachomamma8]

you seem to be clear.

[Nachomamma8]

well then i'm feeling pretty damn good about this titus lynch once our PR claims and gives us the go ahead that he is safe to murdify

[Nachomamma8]

because if notscience killed bert i will never forgive him

[Nachomamma8]

BRIAN

[Nachomamma8]

why do you think that ns is scum shii? i kind of agree that verbs is town.

[Nachomamma8]

oh god is titus the investigative role?

[Nachomamma8]

also i would not recommend reading up overnight. i always seem to be the nightkill when i do that >.>

[Nachomamma8]

WHO THE FUCK IS THE INVESTIGATIVE PR

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho I'm a super saiyan

does that count

if you have the ability to investigate one player at night, then yes.

[Nachomamma8]

WHO THE FUCK IS THE INVESTIGATIVE PR

Calm down Nacho. The day just started. Let's not do anything brash. Maybe the investigative PR hasn't realized day 2 started.

don't worry i'm calm and not planning on doing anything brash (although i'm fairly confident there's not much i can do that's too brash)

[Nachomamma8]

Titus. But if no one here is an investigative role then Titus is probably town which is and cause to panic. But I will be patient, wait for her to show up, and if she claims something that isn't Jailkeeper/Cop/Tracker (or a doctor/bulletproof claim saved by a tracker claim w/no counterclaim) then i'm gonna lynch her because she is probably a scumbag.

[Nachomamma8]

flammus is someone who is coasting on my townread of m-m and is a very real possibility for scum and works decently well as scum. he's probably my second at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

sounds to me like we got a lynch on our hands!

[Nachomamma8]

Nah, it's not time to lynch yet. I want Titus to come in and have their say and I want Flammus to talk a bit more.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't wanna mislynch someone and disappoint Bert.

[Nachomamma8]

It's a mighty barricade against town loss. I would love for NS and Shii to sort out their issues and join the block hand in hand, though. You 4 are my golden hopes and I would love for you to get along nicely.

[Nachomamma8]

Shii doesn't realize how I play

I'm waiting for shii to realize that I'm town

The first step is realizing that not everyone can trust you based on another's words.
The second step is lynching the last scum so no one needs to be paranoid.

[Nachomamma8]

2) Who would that scum be then

I might actually agree with Brian re: Flammus.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and Shii are my strongest town reads so far, both are actively scumhunting and analyzing information accurately. I'm also getting the feeling that Brian is town, he has a lot of reasoning behind his actions, and his analyses have been better than I would expect for a newbie. I get the vibe that Flammus is town too based off of his posts alone, but that gambit in the beginning by Mail still makes me a little suspicious. I'm not sure exactly what to think of Titus, some actions seem pro-town, some seem anti-town, null on this one. Verbs, null-scum in my opinion, seems suspicious because of the supposed reasoning behind Mail's gambit, but that's not enough to make me too suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of JKMatthews and notscience the most, JKM because of the situation with Mail's replacement and asking for a lynch, and notscience because of low levels of activity and not much reasoning behind the vote for Shii.

Strong town read @ Shii: Fucking odd place to put a partner; usually newbies aren't confident enough to call their partner one of their strongest townreads and present it in such a matter-of-fact way.
P strong townread @ Brian: Also odd, less odd because Brian was in a pretty good position at that point.
Town w/reservations @ Flammus: Prime buddy position because it means that it doesn't look weird if he doesn't vote him but it also doesn't look weird if he jumps on later. If you're looking to frame someone as your partner while you're going down, optimal position.
Null @ Titus: Prime buddy real estate, obviously.
Null leaning scum @ Verbs: Decent buddy real estate but kind of makes him vote him if a wagon forms. Verbs voting him already sort of mitigates the buddy convenience a bit though.
Scum @ notscience: Also a really fucking strange position to put a buddy when you have a pretty strong wagon on a townie and your buddy is in a good position.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho and Shii are my strongest town reads so far, both are actively scumhunting and analyzing information accurately. I'm also getting the feeling that Brian is town, he has a lot of reasoning behind his actions, and his analyses have been better than I would expect for a newbie. I get the vibe that Flammus is town too based off of his posts alone, but that gambit in the beginning by Mail still makes me a little suspicious. I'm not sure exactly what to think of Titus, some actions seem pro-town, some seem anti-town, null on this one. Verbs, null-scum in my opinion, seems suspicious because of the supposed reasoning behind Mail's gambit, but that's not enough to make me too suspicious of him. I'm suspicious of JKMatthews and notscience the most, JKM because of the situation with Mail's replacement and asking for a lynch, and notscience because of low levels of activity and not much reasoning behind the vote for Shii.

Strong town read @ Shii: Fucking odd place to put a partner; usually newbies aren't confident enough to call their partner one of their strongest townreads and present it in such a matter-of-fact way.
P strong townread @ Brian: Also odd, less odd because Brian was in a pretty good position at that point.
Town w/reservations @ Flammus: Prime buddy position because it means that it doesn't look weird if he doesn't vote him but it also doesn't look weird if he jumps on later. If you're looking to frame someone as your partner while you're going down, optimal position.
Null @ Titus: Prime buddy real estate, obviously.
Null leaning scum @ Verbs: Decent buddy real estate but kind of makes him vote him if a wagon forms. Verbs voting him already sort of mitigates the buddy convenience a bit though.
Scum @ notscience: Also a really fucking strange position to put a buddy when you have a pretty strong wagon on a townie and your buddy is in a good position.

[Nachomamma8]

I guess if there's any chance of saving an innocent townie (aka me) I'll vote for Titus. UNVOTE: Verbs VOTE: Titus

Anyway, I'm headed to bed now. Hopefully you guys make the right choice and don't lynch me.

this seems like an appeal to be saved. i seriously doubt that he would vote his buddy as a last-minute distance effort.
meaning i've come full circle and don't wanna lynch titus anymore.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Flammus

here you go brian!

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho newbscum are newbscum

I could see it

exactly. and it takes a little foresight to see that you're going down completely and distancing might be a good move. i don't think he possessed that foresight.

[Nachomamma8]

Well yeah

For me, I love to use meta and gut when reading people which is why it doesn't bug me too much

I can't do that. My gut is an idiot.

Gut becomes more effective the longer you play; it's important to differentiate when your gut is your subconscious pegging town/scum and when your gut is actually just paranoid turnings of your subconscious. I use it more than I announce, but learning to trust and fine-tune your gut is actually a decent skill in mafia AND real life.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks, but I'd be happier if you believe it's the best lynch.

I still want people to talk more. I do think he is the best lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

there was already scum on it and hammering townies isn't always the best move as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

If you did it and claimed newbiness I would lynch the everloving fuck out of you the next day. It also wouldn't surprise me if he was waiting for someone else to do his dirty work for him.

[Nachomamma8]

Howdy. I'm Flammus.
Sad to see I already got two votes on me. Anyhow, I'll be reading over these pages and get back to you.

interesting.

[Nachomamma8]

Prod modge

also completely disappeared when we were lynching his townread...

I wish I was a Pr.
Actually I don't. To much responsibility.
And I'm 50% sure that I didn't kill Bert.

you cheeky scumfuck ;[

[Nachomamma8]

Howdy. I'm Flammus.
Sad to see I already got two votes on me. Anyhow, I'll be reading over these pages and get back to you.

interesting.

Thinking Amished? The post gives me mild townvibes personally.

Sleeping on this, good night.

Actually, I find it interesting because he wasn't the leading wagon at that point in time. It makes since for town replacements to worry about votes on them when they are the leading wagon because there's always a lot of extra pressure, but two votes shouldn't be that big of a deal unless you're thinking of it as two people you have to get off you to win.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Verbs vote is straightforward. He doesn't like Gaidens post count/effort ratio. I'll do already on depth analysis later.

also pretty weird that he doesn't care about verbs's vote on said townread.

[Nachomamma8]

This is probably the biggest issue I have with him. Seems like he's trying to hard to clear his (unconfirmed) partner.

only two reads he explained were confirmed scum and titus town which is another WEIRD MOMENT

[Nachomamma8]

i can also easily see this as something that scum would just love to get away with

i have more of a scum vibe from mail currently; if we assume that he knows what he's doing (as per his comments regarding other games he's played in), and we assume that he is town, his actions just don't make sense to me.

Do they make sense from a scum perspective?

Answer this please, verbs.

he was also happy as hell to let me do all the defending for him.
hmmmmmmmm.

[Nachomamma8]

i can also easily see this as something that scum would just love to get away with

scum claim was supposed to be quoted here but somehow i messed up
i'm putting myself to bed now but it doesn't look so good for flammus.

[Nachomamma8]

Howdy. I'm still alive.
Here's the deal, M'Ms slot is extremely bad for town. It is distracting from real scum hunting. So lynching me would knock out one of your scumreads. Replacing out wouldn't do anything because the sub is in my same position. Again, I can't speak for MM. But since my win condition is to eliminate all scum, then lynching me will help you guys narrow it down, and give PRs more time.

Do you have any suspects or a response to the case against you?

Howdy. I'm Flammus.
Sad to see I already got two votes on me. Anyhow, I'll be reading over these pages and get back to you.

interesting.

Thinking

Amished

? The post gives me mild townvibes personally.

Sleeping on this, good night.

What does amished mean?

Amished tell is when someone replaces in and says negative things about their predecessor; in its purest form, it has a pretty high percent accuracy but that's if people don't know about it and if it's applied under the right circumstances, so it's not the best tell to use as of late.

[Nachomamma8]

lets make this a long day because i am probably the next to go at night

actually, I have a good feeling there is a doctor and as long as the doctor protects you, everything should be good. i'm pretty fucking confident the game will end with a flammus lynch, though.

[Nachomamma8]

you're confirmed town titus.
we wanna lynch flammus.

[Nachomamma8]

OK but do you have any suspects of your own or...?

[Nachomamma8]

it's too big to fail

[Nachomamma8]

verbs, if you track someone to yourself and there IS a kill, claim they went nowhere. if you track someone to yourself and there is no kill, claim it normally.

[Nachomamma8]

but mostly i can't see scum outside flammus, so.

[Nachomamma8]

#YOLO, thank you Bert for this fine scum lynch, etc.

[Nachomamma8]

Woot. Figured out how to multi-quote more easily. Anyhow, I completely agree with this now that Verbs and Titus are confirmed town.

I prefer selecting the text I want to respond to, pressing quote and then using copy+paste magic for big mighty walls. It seems to be the fastest.

[Nachomamma8]

hammer flammus at will! if he wanted to contribute, he should have given us something to sink our teeth into right now.
worried he'll flip town?

[Nachomamma8]

yeah the don't you worry child video was telling people to stop worrying

[Nachomamma8]

I am disappointed with a lack of hammer.

[Nachomamma8]

Is there a reason we're dragging out discussion? No one's getting anything out of it.

[Nachomamma8]

A mislynch at this point is delaying the inevitable and giving scum a chance for no good reason. Why don't you want to find scum?

[Nachomamma8]

A mislynch at this point is delaying the inevitable and giving scum a chance for no good reason. Why don't you want to find scum?

[Nachomamma8]

A mislynch at this point is delaying the inevitable and giving scum a chance for no good reason. Why don't you want to find scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Is it possible that those who are considered part of the town bloc are actually scum?

If you were to be town, then the people outside of the townblock would be confirmed town meaning yes, there would be scum in the town block. Is there a reason you needed me to tell you this?

[Nachomamma8]

hallelujah

[Nachomamma8]

notPR

[Nachomamma8]

But I trust nacho to be town

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

So Nacho, it's Day 3 now. Why are you still alive?

Scum has power roles and confirmed town and burn through and couldn't actually win if they killed me. They probably were afraid of me being protected the first night.

Nacho there was literally no reason for you to kill Bert D1 after his statements then.

???
I don't like this reasoning.

[Nachomamma8]

That's nice

Better to lynch me now then leave me for lylo

You could respond to things, you know.

[Nachomamma8]

Only reason you find me town is because of Bert kill? Because if that's the case, then I'm probably gonna park my vote on you for the rest of the day.

[Nachomamma8]

Brian, why do you think ns is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why did you ask this.

Because I haven't decided myself.

[Nachomamma8]

DAMN

[Nachomamma8]

V/LA until Tuesday

Hopefully gonna be back monday but you never know.

[Nachomamma8]

god that is some quality reading
congratulations, this is officially the only game i am gonna do any work whatsoever in!

[Nachomamma8]

post tags are p much god tier for the record and make your posts look really really pretty

389

don't know what post that was but doesn't matter, so easy

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: notscience

[Nachomamma8]

</3 Nacho

"for whatever reason"

I was hoping you would freak out, go paranoid on me, you know, normal reactions. I don't like how the only reason you hold me as town is because bert read me as town and died, which makes no sense.

Not to mention, Nacho let me tunnel on Flammus without taking Shii's argument into account on Day 2. I understand I baited Nacho into that tunnel, but still. Nacho is usually more aware than that.

He was still a damn good lynch, was he not?

@Nacho: How confident are you with your vote?

As of this moment? Decently confident.

Day 3 started - what was your read on me? Has it changed at all and why?

You still feel pretty damn town.

I felt it was either BPNacho trying to draw a nk or docnacho basically sealing the game;

Yes.

Better for me to draw an NK as VT then either of those things, no? It's also directing the doc in a not-so-subtle but still somehow subtle way.

Because after Shii is ML'd in that situation, ns-scum would be stuck vs. Nacho, the player he'd been arguing as town for D3, in MYLO/LYLO D4.

Doesn't seem too hard for him to flip and go "I underestimated town Nacho", especially when he's staring a confirmed town in the face. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagine to say "Nacho fooled me, he's a good player. Vote: Nacho".

He's pushing you (notscience) as scum today without taking a stance on me. That totally makes sense from a scum perspective - Scum!Nacho would know that ns would be a mislynch and that he'd be facing off against me in MYLO/LYLO tomorrow.

I haven't actually posted much today, but pushing notscience as scum sort of suggests I find you town, no?

And the thing about Shii is that I've been heavily townreading him all game.

Me too!

There's a serious lack of reasoning and she hasn't even given ns a chance to defend himself.

Lack of reasoning = lack of time, still in the process of sorting.
I don't really know where you expected me to give ns a chance to defend himself, though.

[Nachomamma8]

What does any of that have to do with me being scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I am attempting to reason why Bert was killed over you, who gains and who loses.

Fear of protection, probably. Bert was screaming that I should be protected during the night, and it was highly likely I would be protected if there was a protective role.

[Nachomamma8]

And it's funny that you suspect me for being "too sure", Brian. It's one of the main reasons I'm so uneasy with ns. He's writing me off as town with no real process in doing so; yesterday, he was paranoid of me because I'm tricky. Today, he's absolutely sure that I'm town because of the N1 nightkill? That doesn't make sense, considering the N1 nightkill happened before he got paranoid, but instead he pretends like that never happened. It makes more sense for scum NS to go after me tomorrow as opposed to today; if I can get mislynched without my blood on his hands, he has a chance of making it through tomorrow against Shii. If he tries to mislynch me today and we get involved in a 1v1, he won't escape. Shii won't trap him in the same way.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, it is just as likely you fooled Bert. Bert viewed at least part of this game with historically colored glasses. He thought I was scum based on 513.

And if the two situations are equally likely, it's not evidence of me being scum.

[Nachomamma8]

For once, I actually upon review would prefer NS. Since we both feel that Shii is town, can we lynch Nacho today and then do NS tomorrow?

Why does the order matter?

[Nachomamma8]

Why does standing a chance matter if you've already made up your mind?

No one's made up their mind, but my mind is on the fast track towards being made when all you can defend yourself with is this.

Nacho on the other hand has practically told us that we should take the slot's living as suspicious. Nacho's interactions with Bert look off and Nacho's generally been the fuel behind most of the mislynches.

Lynches*
I was also pretty much the fuel behind the phok lynch. Yes, I am the optimal kill (unless there are outted power roles), so I probably should have been shot night 1. The fact I was not means that scum was likely afraid of protection.

[Nachomamma8]

At this point? Not really, no.

[Nachomamma8]

Of course there's always a lot of doubt in players that I'm not that familiar with, but I had a strong townread on him early on and I have a good townread on him now. I looked through his posts a while ago, and I didn't really find anything I could feasibly attack.

[Nachomamma8]

Because that's how I reassess townreads.

[Nachomamma8]

(I thought Nacho was the PR ftr, especially towards the end of Day 2.)

Nacho, why did you ask this.

I liked this in #695 because he picked up my PR crumb and wasn't afraid to talk about it at all.
The second question was him asking why I was questioning you on ns, with the implication that I was using you to stockpile fuel for my attack on ns.

I don't like that he never followed up on #696, but it makes sense if he didn't have any time to.

I can see the thought process at the end of #729 even if I don't agree with it. It's also an awkward angle to push as scum to call someone town for having a townread when you have another day to go, I think. He also makes the effort to follow up with his suspicions on me and his townread on ns, which I like a lot.

[Nachomamma8]

I never noticed either of your breadcrumbs. Then again, I don't do that. Also, why would we gain anything from Nacho crumbing PR supposing that is true. Nacho's play and comments usually make her an nightkill even as a VT. So why would town nacho crumb PR?

While crumbing a PR, I'm also giving the new doctor advice on where the protect needs to be going. I'm also WIFOMing the scum so that they will shoot me over the optimal play (the tracker). There is absolutely no reason I should be shot for being me when there is a power role that can determine alignment with 100% accuracy in play.

Here, Nacho did that in a much different manner by claiming that the scums would kill her. Then why the crumbing? It would only serve to confuse town.

I say that scum will kill me because scum usually kill me, which is a pretty well-known fact by now.

Nacho's play changed dramatically when Bert entered the game.

Bert tends to center his games around me (Day 1, figuring me out, figuring out if he wants to follow my reads or not), meaning that it works better for our dynamic if I am loud, active, and have my hand in all things. This is not my only playstyle.

[Nachomamma8]

and notscience's!

[Nachomamma8]

I never noticed either of your breadcrumbs. Then again, I don't do that. Also, why would we gain anything from Nacho crumbing PR supposing that is true. Nacho's play and comments usually make her an nightkill even as a VT. So why would town nacho crumb PR?

While crumbing a PR, I'm also giving the new doctor advice on where the protect needs to be going. I'm also WIFOMing the scum so that they will shoot me over the optimal play (the tracker). There is absolutely no reason I should be shot for being me when there is a power role that can determine alignment with 100% accuracy in play.

Here, Nacho did that in a much different manner by claiming that the scums would kill her. Then why the crumbing? It would only serve to confuse town.

I say that scum will kill me because scum usually kill me, which is a pretty well-known fact by now.

Nacho's play changed dramatically when Bert entered the game.

Bert tends to center his games around me (Day 1, figuring me out, figuring out if he wants to follow my reads or not), meaning that it works better for our dynamic if I am loud, active, and have my hand in all things. This is not my only playstyle.

We're both here. Respond to my defense instead of ignoring it.

[Nachomamma8]

You have. But there isn't anything else you'd like to say, just... that?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll lynch NS with you/for you tomorrow.

And it's thoughts like this that lose games.

No, it's more thoughts like this:

What else is there to say?

Brian and Titus are conftown.

I think Shii is scum, and i've seen reasoning to lynch me- not because I'm scum, because I couldn't hold my own.

I'm obviously not lynching you because you can't "hold your own".

[Nachomamma8]

Your defense is a lot of wifom.

Explaining my actions and giving my insight into why I've done what I've done this game isn't actually WIFOM.

Also, I think your rapid shift was an attempt to get Bert to label you as town, rather than actually being town. Bert should have been able to read you without a massive shift in gameplay.

It's a natural reaction to Bert coming in the game. In Mini Normal 1460, something similar happened. Bert (under alt Nachopappa) replaced in, and I stepped up my play considerably. He asked me about the change in style, and I answered:

I only stepped up my play in this game for you. I would've been fine being an enigma for a couple of days; I don't need to put in the time to get scum lynched, and original plan was to break out the insanity on day 2 or day 3, assuming I lived that long. Don't leave me out in the cold when I'm doing everything I do for you.

[Nachomamma8]

HEY HEY
guess who won't flip scum?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<thjis guy

[Nachomamma8]

Gurrss wo WILL FLIP SCUM
fucking notscience

[Nachomamma8]

i am not a deth tunneler
i have a tendency to tunnel on people i feel strongly about
and guess what? they usually flip scum!

[Nachomamma8]

If Nacho flips town, you are probably getting shot as ns has a better chance of convincing me he is not scum.

if you don't lynch ns tomorrow, we will lose the game.

[Nachomamma8]

I have no idea how I can put it in clearer terms.