Newbie 1419 - GAME OVER

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VOTE: Titus

Double posting in 2013?

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clearly a subliminal message telling us all how threatening he finds jkmatthews.

you think he's started bussing already?

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@mail, how often do you use that self vote at the start of the game? i'd like to hear some more about why you decided to go with it. considering jkm and titus are discussing it, i'd like to hear more before i make my own decision.

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JKM, I cannot see a seasoned player doing that as scum to break out of RVS. The sign would be neon, huge and hard to shake. Look at the results the gambit achieved, the game was moving slowly but now we have active posters and FoSes starting up. Yeah, it's not perfect town read but it's enough to give him a slight town read.

on the other hand, why would a town player do something like that? its directing all of the current suspicion at himself when it doesn't need to be. he knows that he's not scum = waste of time unless scum obviously screws the pooch. what do you think?

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Generally, it is better if we ate all straight up. Sometimes gambits and withholding information are essential.

@notscience, please put jkm's thought into your own words. I am beginning to get suspicious that your vote was opportunistic and you wanted someone to make your case.

why do you think withholding information is essential?

also could you remind me why you think mail's self vote was pro town? youve mentioned that scum wouldn't have pulled that move whereas i can't think why a townie would either.

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You know, this argument is as follows "Would scum really try to move RVS? Clearly no. Thus anyone who promotes RVS must be town." I really hate circular logic.

What I'm saying is scum would usually just go with the flow and end with RVS when it ends, but not actively enforce it or stop it.

your first post became our only point of contention, sure. however, we have effectively pressured no other player.

"im going to get the game rolling by taking the direct pressure off of everyone else in the hopes that ..." <- fill in the blank for me?

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"too town to be town" is never an argument.

it depends on what you mean by "too town", if you mean ones actions are unceasingly trying to further the towns agenda than this is good for the town no matter the side the player is on. if you mean that a player is trying too hard to

appear

they are doing the former, than trying too hard to be town is for sure scummy.

i'm keeping my vote on titus for now, he seems a bit defensive in his exchanges with notscience and he was justifying mail's self vote in post31 which i didn't like.

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Vote: Verbs

JKM, I cannot see a seasoned player doing that as scum to break out of RVS. The sign would be neon, huge and hard to shake. Look at the results the gambit achieved, the game was moving slowly but now we have active posters and FoSes starting up. Yeah, it's not perfect town read but it's enough to give him a slight town read.

on the other hand, why would a town player do something like that? its directing all of the current suspicion at himself when it doesn't need to be. he knows that he's not scum = waste of time unless scum obviously screws the pooch. what do you think?

I see you trying to erode Titus's townread on m-m without really taking a position on m-m. Which scenario do you think is the most likely? Is he town or scum?

i have more of a scum vibe from mail currently; if we assume that he knows what he's doing (as per his comments regarding other games he's played in), and we assume that he is town, his actions just don't make sense to me.

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i have more of a scum vibe from mail currently; if we assume that he knows what he's doing (as per his comments regarding other games he's played in), and we assume that he is town, his actions just don't make sense to me.

Do they make sense from a scum perspective?

more so than from a town perspective. at least scum would have something to gain from it.

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And what is it that they gain? Attention?

here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

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Are you listing the gambit's effects in regards to the town, to M-M, or to the mafia (taking into consideration whether or not M-M is indeed mafia)? Because I don't think having the pressure being almost entirely on M-M benefits the mafia if he is indeed scum. Also, people taking sides can be both beneficial and dangerous depending on how you look at it.

Sorry for complicating this for you, but I like to look at things in shades of grey rather than black or white.

positive = helps town, negative = helps scum. i was thinking that the pressure being on mail helps mafia because his partner is able to skate by.

In 97 your wording implied that there was

no

town benefit to the gambit - why did this change?

i was thinking about the things that it has actually done to the game so far. i cannot say that it hasn't created discussion looking at the way in which this game has played out so far... our whole thread is pretty much centered around this issue. i was originally thinking it (mail's gambit) doesn't benefit the town because it doesn't have a linear path to follow. what i mean by that is that when you wagon someone, it follows a linear path by putting pressure on that person. so my original assumption was that if mail knows that he is town, wouldn't it be a waste of time to pressure yourself because where would it be going. however, im seeing that just by an issue being a point of contention it has value in this game because we can read into things.

And what is it that they gain? Attention?

here's my thought process, which is what you are really interested in i'm guessing.

the gambit's positives: generates discussion, makes people takes sides.
negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game.

3 > 2, so that is why i've been saying that the gambit is more scummy than town.

A.

How is bringing all the pressure on mail a good thing for mafia?

B.

How does it allow scum avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit when you can call out people for having safe/easy opinions?

C.

The third negative is true but I don't see how M-M's posts accomplish that purpose at all if he is scum.

a. there are two mafia in the game right now. assuming that mail is one of them, this means that there is a lot less pressure on his ally due to the fact that mail is so high up on peoples radar.
b. how do you differentiate between a townie with a safe opinion on the gambit and scum with the same?
c. surviving such a controversial opening has the direct impact of painting mail's future actions in a different light. in life we have opinions on people by taking into account all the information that we know about them and this can influence us, even inadvertently. if mail gets past this with little suspicion, it can make slips that are not as big/obvious seem smaller/less significant in the later game.

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UNVOTE:
VOTE: Verbs

Post 111 (the infamous "3 > 2" post) is posted entirely from the assumption that m-m is town, yet tries to paint m-m as scum for it. Also the post analyses whether or not the gambit is good for town, not whether or not it comes from a scummy mindset.
Verbs is scum, let's lynch.

i don't agree that post111 is assuming that mail is town, i wrote it to list the positives and the negatives that the gambit has on the game. im using positives here to distinguish things that help the town, whereas negatives are things that help the mafia team. why do you think that i am scum? is it because of the first sentence of the above quoted section? because if so i don't understand where you found an assumption within that post that you mention and without that assumption i don't see how you reach the conclusion that i am scum.

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Verbs has also shrouded mm's gambit in wifom. That isn't good. Almost anything can be argued as protown or scummy using wifom. I don't like that.

can you pinpoint specific moments where you felt i "shrouded mm's gambit in wifom"? especially moments in which i used wifom to argue for something as being a specific alignment within the game.

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[quote="In post 158
P-Edit:

negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game

This analysis doesn't make sense if you allow for the possibility that mail is scum. So, if you allow these negatives to 'outweigh' the positive, it means a townie has employed a bad strategy, not that mail is scum due to their being more negatives. You voted for mail based on his ability to pull off a gambit, not because you thought it was a scummy thing to do...[/quote]

i actually didn't vote on mail so far, i've just been outlining my suspicions because i've been asked about them. the way that i have thought about it is that, with no other knowledge besides ones strategy/posts, if a strategy/post is more scummy than town i tend to look at the person as being more scummy than town.

also in regards to shii's concerns that i didn't vote for mail, i was waiting for him to answer some of my questions directed at him... of which are still unanswered.

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i actually didn't vote on mail so far, i've just been outlining my suspicions because i've been asked about them. the way that i have thought about it is that, with no other knowledge besides ones strategy/posts, if a strategy/post is more scummy than town i tend to look at the person as being more scummy than town.

Sure, but you didn't say the strategy was scummy. You only said "it has these negatives (if he's town), so therefore he's scummy". The bit in brackets is implied by your analysis.

isn't it implied that i thought the strategy was scummy if i have been making a case against him utilizing the strategy as the backbone of my argument?

also i dont understand what difference it makes if hes town or if hes scum? if he does something it has an affect on the game regardless of alignment or original intent.

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This post is the best example. Basically, the implication is that m-m is just trying to look town.

actually you are wrong here, i was just chiming in when people were talking about peoples actions being "too town" or "too scummy". i was not trying to imply anything in this post other what i am stating within the post: pro-town actions are pro-town regardless of the authors original intention, however i was outlining a distinction between actions being genuine or not and this has to do with a level of effort that the author of a post puts in.

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i understand what you are saying brian, however i was just curious about the emphasis that jkm placed on my post (that i am implying something about mail's alignment). i am definitely not trying to say "lets lynch town". what i am saying is that lets lynch everyone that is acting most scum.

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But that would mean that mail is the leading member of the scumteam. Do you think that's the case?

i am not sure what you mean by leading member here

If he doesn't get past this, he's a day 1 lynch and his partner is pretty much screwed. Thus, if he IS mafia and pulling a gambit like that, it's likely that he believes he is good enough to dig himself out of the hole he creates. And if he's good enough to do that, why not avoid digging a hole like that in the first place?

im interpreting this question as essentially boiling down to "why would he attempt a gambit in the first place", the answer to which there is only one logical solution: that he believed the reward would be worth the initial level of risk.

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I'm very glad people had the same problems with JKM I did. I'm very confused how I'm the first one on his wagon.

Vote: JKMatthews

can you identify some of his posts that sparked you the wrong way? i read through your iso and you don't directly mention him much.

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the stronger member of the scumteam, in other words.

unfortunately i am unable to say. since his initial burst of posts we've gotten nothing from mail. all of the questions i've asked him have gone unanswered so i haven't been able to probe his mindset very much.

right. but where

the reward is a bit philosophical, intangible, distant, the risk is obvious and very real

,

meaning it's more likely to be coming from town

. do you see where I'm coming from on that?

i agree with everything in italics however i am not sure that the bold section can be stated with confidence.

#196 was the worst, but all posts after #183 were pretty solidly scummy.

i agree that the eagerness that he has displayed to get me lynched is suspicious especially how little regard that he is giving to the possibility of me flipping as town.

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It's interesting that you ask Nacho to explain the read, then you say "yeah I agree", rather than voicing your suspicions yourself.

heres exactly what nacho said:

#196 was the worst, but all posts after #183 were pretty solidly scummy.

so i'm not quite sure why you are getting defensive. he pointed to some posts without really articulating his exact thoughts and i added in my own opinion about the post he was suspicious of. would you like it better if i didn't do that?

Why is it suspicious that I'd be happy to see you lynched while not giving much regard to you maybe flipping town. Surely if I thought you'd flip town it would be

more

suspicious if I were still happy to see you lynched...?

i am not sure if i understand this statement. are you trying to say you haven't thought much about me being town so that justifies you pushing a quick lynch on me?

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prod dodge.

any thoughts on the way the game is playing out? you've been very quiet.

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VOTE: gaiden

pretty reactive player in terms of producing content.

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Not posting content=/=Scum

explain

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Yeah... i'm confused too.

23 posts and only a couple of them have much thought put into them. way too much lurking.

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Why is that a problem, then?

because im obviously town

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I agree with NS on Verbs lynch and that's why it worries me.

so how do you suppose we can alleviate that problem?

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Rereading the last few pages I'm feeling better about Titus, some of my problems with him earlier could have been attributed to playstyle in retrospect and I'm picking up on some townvibes now, plus Verbs/JKM atp both being on him gives me willies.

explain why

Verbs's Gaiden vote is ok? It makes sense, but the tiny case could've been produced by either alignment without much effort, in general feels very lazy.

i wasn't even making a case at that point, i wanted him to post more

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This is like the Replacement Game or something. Hard to read people when everyone keeps getting replaced.

i agree......

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sorry for the inactivity guys, 40hour work week + 15 credits got me all fucked up for the time but I will be around and active for the rest of the thread.

i was town tracker, targeted titus and got a negative result (he did not visit anyone last night). lets make this a long day because i am probably the next to go at night

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Ok. I mean I'm in a really bad position because of MM. But if lynching me would give you guys a flip and help town win, then I'm not against it. I understand the suspicion that's on me and its justified.

the suspicion is on your slot in the game, lets call this a bias if you will. if you act in a manner that confirms this bias, it only gives us more of a reason to want to lynch you. if you are legitimately town, your game plan right now should be to avoid confirming this bias. i will tell you how to do this: we need to hear more from you. i had a problem with mail because of the fact that he attempted that gambit and did not use it to create content.

if you do the exact same thing,

like in this post of yours that i am quoting right now

, by blaming your position on him and not creating content then i will push to get your ass lynched as well.