Newbie 1419 - GAME OVER

[JKMatthews]

VOTE: mail-mi
This is a whole other level of self-voting. Usually as town or scum it's giving up, so that's why it's frowned upon. This is scum struggling to make an RVS vote so overdoing the joke.

[JKMatthews]

Also, if you have any assumptions regarding jailors and roleblockers, mention them now. When I came here, assuming the wrong things greatly derailed my first scum game as jkmatthews can attest.

Titus, yeah that really was your undoing in that game. So... if you're town you'd think it was possible m-m was scum... so why give this friendly bit of advice to help scum not slip?

[JKMatthews]

Fair enough, that's very noble of you! (I'll never forgive you)

Interested to hear why you've given m-m that slight townread. The gambit is only townie if m-m knew it was an extremely scummy move to make, and even then surely that path of WIFOM leads to null at best?

[JKMatthews]

WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM
A seasoned player would know that, and might find a new website a great place to try out a scum strategy like that, knowing it would lead to WIFOM.

[JKMatthews]

Well sure, but this is super blatant WIFOM, bordering on scummy.

If somebody in RVS said "Guys, I promise you I'm scum and m-m is my partner", would you say "ooh what a good conversation piece - town points!"? Where's the line?

[JKMatthews]

Not ever, I think. It felt like a good thing to get the game going, and look it did.

I really dislike this line of reasoning. In general, town being scummy is bad for town. So if you're town, all you've done is helped scum get out of RVS by voting for you like any good townie probably should...
But yeah
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus
because this is more likely.

[JKMatthews]

Rereading makes it seem more likely to me that Titus is buddying than m-m actually being scum...

[JKMatthews]

Elaborate notscience?

[JKMatthews]

Such tasty WIFOM, seriously...

[JKMatthews]

Essentially just prod dodging here. I'll post more on Monday.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Brian

[JKMatthews]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Verbs

Post 111 (the infamous "3 > 2" post) is posted entirely from the assumption that m-m is town, yet tries to paint m-m as scum for it. Also the post analyses whether or not the gambit is good for town, not whether or not it comes from a scummy mindset.
Verbs is scum, let's lynch.

[JKMatthews]

Shiidaji - what "further comments" would you like? Just because I haven't made a post that consolidates all my thoughts, I'd be surprised if you couldn't figure out where I stood with most people.

And you should probably clarify if what you said should be interpreted as intent to hammer or not...

P-Edit:

negatives: pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game

This analysis doesn't make sense if you allow for the possibility that mail is scum. So, if you allow these negatives to 'outweigh' the positive, it means a townie has employed a bad strategy, not that mail is scum due to their being more negatives. You voted for mail based on his ability to pull off a gambit, not because you thought it was a scummy thing to do...

[JKMatthews]

i actually didn't vote on mail so far, i've just been outlining my suspicions because i've been asked about them. the way that i have thought about it is that, with no other knowledge besides ones strategy/posts, if a strategy/post is more scummy than town i tend to look at the person as being more scummy than town.

Sure, but you didn't say the strategy was scummy. You only said "it has these negatives (if he's town), so therefore he's scummy". The bit in brackets is implied by your analysis.

[JKMatthews]

isn't it implied that i thought the strategy was scummy if i have been making a case against him utilizing the strategy as the backbone of my argument?

also i dont understand what difference it makes if hes town or if hes scum? if he does something it has an affect on the game regardless of alignment or original intent.

I'm not sure how to communicate this to you other than how I already have. The premise of your "negatives" argument ("pressure has been almost entirely on mail, allows scum to avoid pressure by taking a safe/easy opinion on the gambit, if scum avoids the first lynch it makes things easier on them in the later game") all implies that mail is town. If he's not town, then him having all the pressure means scum aren't hiding, and that scum aren't avoiding the first lynch (if it leads to lynch).
So, for any of these negatives to

actually be negatives

, m-m would need to be town. But you're calling him scum for it.
I'm at a loss how to explain it in any other way.

Titus, nobody has claimed intent to hammer. Why so keen for a claim?

[JKMatthews]

That implies that you might want people to start claiming at L-2 or earlier. If nobody's stated intent to hammer, we're at no risk of a hammer. Why turn it around ASAP? People have to take stances, which means we get more info.

[JKMatthews]

Ugh, get his replacement to claim then kill it!

[JKMatthews]

Because I was making a statement to the town. You implied you thought Verbs should be claiming, I want somebody out there to state intent to hammer so that Verbs's slot actually should be claiming...

[JKMatthews]

Explain. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well, because I don't see how it's scummy at all...

[JKMatthews]

If you read closely you'll see I actually want him lynched, but you know, procedure and all...

[JKMatthews]

If he's scum, you shouldn't be concerned. Assuming no PR interference, tomorrow would be 6v1 - even if literally no words had been said, it's pretty easy to say that's a game stacked against scum.

If he's town we analyse that, and potential night goings on, like always. Big deal?

Sure, more conversation is good in general, but if we're confident enough to lynch someone now, extra discussion is likely to be large amounts of scum-induced WIFOM.

Also why not give this level of heat to Titus for asking for a claim? That's what his conversation was actually about, after all...

[JKMatthews]

*this conversation

[JKMatthews]

Ok, so I have something overwhelmingly embarrassing to admit. I thought Verbs was the one replacing out based on a brief look at the avatar rather than the poster name. Verbs posting all these responses confused the hell out of me, and so I've gone back and noticed it was m-m. Those posts were all from the mindset that Verbs was replacing out, and a fear of the replacement getting a clean slate of "oh I can't justify my predecessor's actions" that tends to happen. Don't take this to mean I don't still think Verbs is scum, it's just I don't think the lynch is as big a deal. Also hopefully it explains the "get the replacement to claim" confusion... sorry guys

i agree that the eagerness that he has displayed to get me lynched is suspicious especially how little regard that he is giving to the possibility of me flipping as town.

It's interesting that you ask Nacho to explain the read, then you say "yeah I agree", rather than voicing your suspicions yourself.

i agree that the eagerness that he has displayed to get me lynched is suspicious especially how little regard that he is giving to the possibility of me flipping as town.

Why is it suspicious that I'd be happy to see you lynched while not giving much regard to you maybe flipping town. Surely if I thought you'd flip town it would be

more

suspicious if I were still happy to see you lynched...?

Nacho - I agree it's odd that nobody's voted for me despite all the accusation... do you feel like that makes me more or less likely scum? How about notscience and Titus?

[JKMatthews]

Hardly defensive, I'm very much on the attack. You didn't ever say "I think the way JKM is pushing the lynch is suspicious", you said "Hey Nacho, can you explain your reasons for suspecting JKM?", then borrowed them. If you had to ask Nacho why he found me suspicious, it really seems like you're not scumhunting.

Not really sure how to make it any clearer. You're implying that by having confidence you'll flip scum, I'm scummy for pushing your lynch...

[JKMatthews]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

Commit to something. We both seem scummy but you're not voting for either of us? Terrible.

Also your post reads like you're saying Verbs being afraid to OMGUS is a point

against

his scumminess... explain?

[JKMatthews]

And in the meantime you get to not take a solid stance on anything until everyone else has. Awfully convenient, that.

Glad you clarified, the "yet" threw me...

My votes are perhaps reckless, but they're not random.

[JKMatthews]

JKM

- Slight scumread. At first, he had pretty consistent reasoning for his voting process. Then he avoids a prod dodge with a pretty worthless vote on me (no reasoning, concerns, etc.). When he comes back, he claims Verbs is scum and asks for a lynch. Then when M-M gets replaced, he conveniently uses the excuse that he thought Verbs was getting replaced (not going to argue whether or not this is true).[/b]

A few things. A "prod dodge" is exactly that. A post to say "I'm aware I'm still in the game and it's going on, but I don't have time to post any real content". Calling me scum for not posting content in a post that by its very nature is saying "I know there's not content here" is sketchy at best.
No denying that I was keen for some Verbs pressure.
Then, in response to the replacement request:

Ugh, get his replacement to claim then kill it!

I'm clearly asking for a single slot to be forced to claim and then lynched. I can't be talking about the Verbs slot, because it was never being replaced. I can't be talking about the m-m slot, because I never wanted it to be lynched. So clearly I made a mistake. The statement is complete nonsense otherwise.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons to suspect me that I'm happy to address, but your post really reads like you're just trying to make up reasons to join the popular wagon.
All your reads seem to be taking the safe option of what the majority thinks.

As for the general question of "If it was Verbs being replaced, why was I so eager for a lynch?", it's because I've seen replacements being given essentially a clean slate too many times. They come in, say "I dunno what that guy was doing!", give a bunch of reads, and people lose interest. It was simply my way of encouraging those who were suspicious to remain suspicious (and trying to encourage people to still be ok to lynch if they were thinking about it).

[JKMatthews]

@JKM, That was a pretty big overreaction to me giving a slight town read to M-M's slot if you never had any intention of getting M-M lynched.

What are you talking about here? What was an overreaction?

[JKMatthews]

Why does early suspicion have to lead to a lynch? Also, I think you're confusing the issue - that line of enquiry was because I was more suspicious of

you

for giving the townread.

[JKMatthews]

I was suspicious of you because giving the townread didn't make sense. I couldn't see town motivation behind it, there's was a possibility you were trying to make an early friend, so I followed that line of enquiry...
And I would react that way because following leads and applying pressure with aggression is an effective way of scumhunting and generating discussion that early in the game. It sickens me to basically have to say "because I'm doing townie things" - why do I have to spell that out for you?

[JKMatthews]

@JKM, Really, you cannot see town motivation behind analyzing players early? If you didn't want MM lynched, like you claimed, then you just immediately turned your attention to the first player to post content and attacked. That doesn't make much sense either.

This is a ridiculous generalisation. I turned my attention to you because of your

specific

analysis that I thought was terrible and looked like friend-making rather than actual analysis...

[JKMatthews]

@JKM, you never highlighted anything terrible about the analysis. That's because the analysis wasn't terrible. You're stretching.

You high? I questioned it a whole bunch...

[JKMatthews]

Got my prod, but

I need to be replace

. Bit off a bit more than I can chew with how many games I signed up for, sorry all.

Good luck and have fun!