Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[thezmon221]

Alright. So I am here.

If someone wouldn't mind pointing out the things I need to know (as I have not read this game too much), then I would be happy. I'll do a read through right now, but some important notes to keep in mind are good.

Someone's a PGO, correct?

[thezmon221]

notscience is Innocent Child
Venmar is PGO

I see there's a wagon on TP. Someone give me a case while I read through?

I played a game with mastin (town), and I don't remember him being passive. But then again, my meta on him is unreliable since it was only one game. And I think he died early anyways.

[thezmon221]

Done reading.

Notes:

That TD wagon was a shitstorm. It blew up so quickly on something that looks legit town-AtE. If you've got a vote on him, I suggest you take it off and put it in a better place.

Here's my reads for now. All scum reads are weak. Most of the town reads are weak, but there's a few (like BatB and Aj) which are stronger.

Spoiler:

TOWN

Venmar
Notscience
BatB
Trust Fund
Sound of Silence
Mac
Aj The Epic
TiphaineDeath
zMuffinMan

NULL

Nachomamma8
Andrius
BROseidon
Desperado
Skullduggery
mastin2
Ghostlin

SCUM

FTL
Nhammen
RachMarie
nickthename

Yes, I expected TD to be rational and calm. See AJ's day two last game, etc. Admittedly, I'll need to go grab some towngames of his to get a baseline, before actually calling for L-1/hammer/etc.

I have a good grasp on his meta. We’re from the same offsite.

Anyways... for my vote, I will be picking:

VOTE: Faster than Light
Post 53 is massively useless speculation. All it comprises of are comments that really are either:
A) Common Sense
B) Just plain redundant/retarded.

Posts 54 and 99 comprise the massively cliché approach of “reaction test.” Like seriously, once realized that Venmar wasn’t getting lynched, FTL jumped off and… wait for it… onto the TD wagon. Which is also on the rise.

Posts 243/255 sound a lot to me like someone desperate for towncred.

The speed with which the TD wagon built up is

not

a sign that he's town, or even likely town. It's null at best, and I'm sure as fuck not going to discount his play just because his wagon built up quickly. Off the top of my head, Ghostlin should remember the shit position town got put in when the whole town thought this exact same thing on D1 of Cyclic x02 - it made for a very easy scum win. The point being; judge his play, and the play of the people voting him, not the fucking speed of the wagon.

The speed is not my concern. The reasoning is. His AtE isn't exactly something to go ahead and quicklynch over. Sure, he might be scum, but not with the case that's been given.

I like this overall post, though. You can be town.

[thezmon221]

I was under the impression he had a bad fit of crumbling under pressure in such instances. Especially in a quick-lynch scenario such as this.

Like I said, my scum reads are pretty weak. As such, here’s short reasoning for each of the players.

Nickthename:

His is more of a conflict-of-interest type read. I view Mac as pretty town-like, and I’m not a big fan of his case on Mac in post 272. Plus, he was delayed in his reasoning for Mac. It seems a bit like a fit-the-evidence-for-the-read shnindig.

Not to mention, he voted for Venmar for his PGO claim, then quickly changed his vote to TD, in a similar kind of feel to FTL’s hop from one to the other… The reasoning for TD was poor, at best (Post 102).

I do like some of his posts, but those two pointers outweighed what I viewed as town.

Nhammen:

That was a mistake. Not sure why I had him on my scum list. I think I viewed your vote on TD, and somehow put his name on. He should be under “null.”

RachMarie:

To me, it looks like all of her posts are manufactured. ESPECIALLY Post 211. ESPECIALLY this quote right here:

Besides his reaction to Venmar's claim is there even a case on TD? Something other than oh he was scum last time please.

Post 409 does not set too well with me either.

PEDIT: MuffinMan you break my heart. Get off of TD and pursue a real scum read, please. TD's a bad wagon.

[thezmon221]

This is wrong in several ways. First off, my first write up of my reason for voting mac came

14 minutes after my initial vote.

Perhaps this isn't immediate enough for you, but it took me a little while to double check what I was talking about and find the quotes I wanted.

I can create a case of that stature in 14 minutes. Not to mention, half of the case holds barely no water anyways.

\because if my partner thinks he is scum there must be a reason and so i am going to ask him

If you think he's town and Varsoon thinks he's scum, you don't think you could find a read you guys, y'know, don't contrast on?

who cares about where the vote goes anyway what matters is a wagon push, not really pushing whatever atm lets see what varsoon has to say

What.

Mac isn't a controversial read.

I'm contradicting you on it. It's controversial. Now explain it when you can.

Bro. One or two people thinking Mac is scum for weak reasoning whereas everyone else has him as town is not controversial. That's you not reading him right.

BRO, your liar tell is a reach at best. There’s no way you’re serious right about now.

{FTL,

Malakittens

, nickthename}
{Ghost, Mac, NS, Silence, Tiphane, Trust, Venmar, Thezmon, Nacho, Muffin}
{AJ, Andi, BRO, Desp, Mastin, Rach, Skull}

Pretty much ok with speedlynching any of the scum reads at this point, they're all pretty strong. I'd say FTL is the weakest, which should be an indicator.

Why is Mala there? nhammen did jack little shit, and she hasn't done much since replacement.

Replacements, please post. Nacho's catchup is a good model for this. I will hold you accountable for catching up. Nothing annoys me more than parroty-shitty-town that hasn't caught up. It annoyed me in 512 when I was scum, and it annoys me here, too.

It's like you've yet to read my posts at all. Last I checked, I read the wole thread, posted my reads, and then went ahead and created my case for my strongest scum read, and then some.

So go read those posts before you challenge me to bullshit.

[thezmon221]

z dude you do realize that the top three on their list were their scummiest reads right?

Are you talking to me?

\Are you seriously accusing me of voting someone for no reason, then immediately deciding I needed to manufacture a case? And this seems more logical to you then that I just voted immediately then went about writing up the reason that I already had for why I was voting?

Also, do you care to rebut the case, or just say you don't think it makes sense?

It seems pretty logical to me that your case overall feels fabricated.

First off, TD, me, and BRO, that's 3 people. I would call three people disagreeing with your read reason enough to explain your reasoning, no? What do you have against him explaining his read?

See, what happens when you go ahead and interject like that is that you don't understand. I didn't say it was bad to question the reasoning. I said it's not controversial. Something controversial would be me saying notscience is scum, even though he's an Innocent Child, and then providing a more than adequate case which would display how he has been playing in a scummy matter.

Nonetheless, continue.

Spoiler:

Case on Mac.

you know there is nothing wrong with what venmar did? and in fact, your alternative solutions would have had more of a negative effect than the way venmar has played it?

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

i don't like the way you are playing so far.

His initial reason for getting on the wagon is pretty insubstantial

Why him specifically? Most of the people on the wagon initially jumped on because of this very same thing.

we are most certainly not done with it.

stop running away.

pretty sure you are running away.
now answer the questions asked at you or be lynched. it's simple.

And yet he follows up pushing the wagon without really posting his own reason.
I'm not posting the whole iso, but suffice to say up till 208 he doesn't give a reason for being on the wagon, despite pushing it heavily.

Post 138 disagrees.

It's not a mother fucking policy lynch, I didn't push a lynch on venmar, I never voted venmar, and I hate policy lynches. Remove-head-from-rectum-conf-town.

and yet you said you were "heavily tempted" to vote Venmar earlier

But TD explained in his very next post that he only said that out of frustration, and never intended to actually vote him. Mac seems to have ignored that post entirely.

So what you're telling me... is that he's wrong for not reading a backtrack? I'd understand if this was like, y'know, something less scummy. But TD backtracked the hell out of that post. He went all guns blazing at Venmar, only to later say, "Oh, I never REALLY wanted to vote him!"

...Remind me why it's scummy to assume such behavior?

I. Don't. Even. All you stupid fuckers need to stop PGO claiming, either it's a bad gambit, or you are one in which case you should be playing in such a way that scum will target you and not town to get free kills instead of dumbassing. Heavily tempted to vote venmar here....

You didn't vote him, but you made this little half-step push thing, which is worse in my book.

bingo. it looks alot like you were flirting with the idea but waiting for someone else to take the initiative, TD.

As I said early, this is simply incompatible with what Ven and TD actually said there. This is either joining and staying on a big wagon without even reading the reason cited for being on it, or blatent misrepping.

Eh, I'll give you this point.

ok. i was wrong. remind me why that makes me scum? I've justified my place on this wagon already.

also voting venmar for stupidity = policy lynch. despite td apparently hating them.

What you were wrong about

was

your justification for being on the wagon, did you even read what I said?
Also, TD never voted venmar for stupidity, which is consistent with his dislike of PLs. That's not a reason to vote TD.

As far as why it makes you scum, well, obviously you aren't confirmed scum for it, but hopping on, staying on, and pushing a large wagon without bothering to read the posts of or try to understand the intent of the person you are wagoning doesn't seem at all town to me.

His position looked justified to me by other posts that TD had made with his flailing. Unless, of course, Mac voted him solely based on post 217. However, I don't believe that to be the case.

Will someone please give me the Malakittens/nhammen scum case please? kkthxbai.

[thezmon221]

Vote: nickthename

The only player I don't know here.

Holy shit that was a long post. But I did laugh a bit at it.

But in seriousness - You know me? Because I don't know you...

[thezmon221]

THEZMON - uh I don't know you?

Was curious, because you voted for nick and said he's the only player you didn't know.

@Trust Fund - Mastin scumread is mainly gut, but I don't think this is his town meta. He tries really hard as scum to appeal to others, which is basically all of what his 2 posts are, him complaining and trying really hard to look town. Both of his posts have like 0 content in them and don't hold much fruit, they're just him complaining/AtEing and not doing any kind of substantial scumhunting or being productive, which is what he said he would be in his 1st post (#240), but 228 posts later he comes with with his 2nd post (#448) with him just complaining and slapping on random reads.

VOTE: Mastin2

Do you actually have your own reasoning, or are you merely trusting someone else's gut (not even your own)?

Andy, you can join my town list, btw.

Take a chill pill, it's not like there were reactions to the claim or anything.

I mean... it was probably the worst move you could make apart from letting yourself be lynched without showing everyone you're town.

[thezmon221]

Yeah, you doing what you want hasn't worked out so far.

[thezmon221]

Then explain what reactions you have benefited from, and what they've given you, please and thank you.

Do you actually have your own reasoning, or are you merely trusting someone else's gut (not even your own)?

Venmar's reasoning is spectacularly good. Once I read mastin's pitiful AtE laden posts and confirmed Venmar wasn't a dipshit or a liar, I was perfectly happy to place my vote on mastin.

So, you and your leading questions can very kindly choke on it.

Such hostility. I didn't say it was terrible. In fact, I agree with you that Venmar probably has something going there. It's influenced mastin into a more null-scum. I was just curious if you had other basis for your vote.

No need to make me cry, TF.

[thezmon221]

For future reference, that was Cabd or Syr?

[thezmon221]

As of right now, my three reads are FTL, nickthename, and RachMarie. I have given reasons for them before, so please ISO me if you want them, because I am feeling lazy about restating them.

[thezmon221]

Congratulations! You found out that everyone indirectly called you an idiot for playing the IC-role poorly.

Now, what have these

amazing

reactions told you thus far, NS? Other than the fact that you are playing IC badly right now?

PEDIT:

As of right now, my three reads are FTL, nickthename, and RachMarie. I have given reasons for them before, so please ISO me if you want them, because I am feeling lazy about restating them.

I will do more investigation on nick. I like your other two.

Do you have any scum reads apart from the three aforementioned?

[thezmon221]

NS... I don't think you understand what's going on here.

You claimed IC at one of the most inopportune times.

I have just said your play is bad, and you disagree.

I asked for your reactions, and what you gathered from them. You gave me the reactions but not the latter.

So please cooperate and tell me what you have gathered from this reaction fish. This is your burden of stupidity, not mine.

PEDIT: Ohai Mastin.

nick wagon is looking to be gaining traction, so I'm starting to get the urge to follow...

[thezmon221]

It's on me, because I'm waiting for someone to suggest a PL on me.

TF is probably town for that reaction.

Nick is probably scum (based upon what PM said about scum acting more calm when there's a reaction test)

SoS or TD is probably scum. I don't think both are.

What's not to comprehend?

Your fucking thought process.



Please, please, please, if you're a vig kill this kid so I don't have to read his posts anymore.

I already said I was bored and decided to use it.

I was bored

I was bored

I was bored

I was bored

I was bored

I was bored

I was bored

no but seriously you're a garbage player who is not playing to win and playing because you're fucking bored?

Oh, and this is for you, NS. Thanks Andy.

AJ Iso:

His posts look town, so he's probably scum. But seriously. Content looks town. Can't tell if he is town, but his content's enough where I'm calling him town.

He's town. You can just let me tango with him.

@Despo: Nice to see you today. Thought I'd miss out on playing with you. I like your reads for 4/5 of those people. You can be town for now.

PEDIT: DAMNIT Andy! You can't keep mind sniping me.

[thezmon221]

I think nick's post is way too calm given what I did, seeing as everyone else is still making a big fucking deal about it and yet he's just like meh.

SoS's reprimand sounded fake, as did TD's. "I wonder what his motivation was but it doesn't really matter" doesn't that sound off to anyone? And TD's post was weird too.

TF gave REASONS with his reprimand and actually explained where he was coming from. I don't see scum doing that.

DING DING DING

Here's what I've been looking for.

However, your massive backtrack is very strange. At first, and very consistently, you said you were bored. All of a sudden it was a reaction fish. Care to explain? Or is there no explanation?

As for your reactions... I agree on the nick, SoS, and TF evaluations, but not on TD. In my eyes, TD was already crumbling under pressure, so this added to the fire. However, SoS's reaction was strange in that they were rather nonchalant on the even. Also, nick looked like he was posturing under this situation.

So, NS, would you like to move your vote to a scum read, instead of on a massively useless vote? Because with that vote you sound very Jester-like, even though you're not a Jester.

I can advise for ya to move AJ into town (albeit admittedly fairly weakly so; I don't know AJ as well as some of these others do) and similarly for Rach (my personal read is fairly-decently-town, but again, haven't really played with her much to know for sure).

At this point in time I'm fairly confident, and I've played with him for the better part of 2 years.

[thezmon221]

Why don't you think TD's reaction at the time looked fake? I understand how it added fuel to the fire, but looking at just that it seems kinda forced to me.

Considering the fact that Venmar PGO claimed, and then he got a lot of scrutiny for his reaction, I'd expect a scum-TD to look more like nick's reaction because he wants pressure off of him. He reacted very similarly to the Venmar claim as he did to yours, which is what leads me to believe it is more natural. He seems like a more abrasive person to me.

thez, if you've ever seen me play you know I love doing random shit for reactions or simply because I'm bored. I'm an impulsive person who does shit like that all the time.

But come on, you couldn't have shown restraint in this instance?

[thezmon221]

Case on Mac.

you know there is nothing wrong with what venmar did? and in fact, your alternative solutions would have had more of a negative effect than the way venmar has played it?

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

i don't like the way you are playing so far.

His initial reason for getting on the wagon is pretty insubstantial

Why him specifically? Most of the people on the wagon initially jumped on because of this very same thing.

This is correct, and I consider it natural to look for scum on the TD wagon, especially considering how fast it grew. This quote here is significant, because later he claims to have already posted his reason for being on the wagon. This is that reason.

I see it, at that point in time, to be at least somewhat legitimate. I can see where one would think TD is scum for such harsh reactions to Venmar PGO-claim. Add to that, his consistency with the NS claim, and you get a guy flailing like crazy and acting rather anti-town.

we are most certainly not done with it.

stop running away.

pretty sure you are running away.
now answer the questions asked at you or be lynched. it's simple.

And yet he follows up pushing the wagon without really posting his own reason.
I'm not posting the whole iso, but suffice to say up till 208 he doesn't give a reason for being on the wagon, despite pushing it heavily.

Post 138 disagrees.

I meant that between the previous post I commented on (138) and 208 he doesn't give a reason. I was agnowledging that he had aditional posts between 138 and 208, but none giving any other reason for being on the wagon.

I see. So you're looking for elaboration on his part?

It's not a mother fucking policy lynch, I didn't push a lynch on venmar, I never voted venmar, and I hate policy lynches. Remove-head-from-rectum-conf-town.

and yet you said you were "heavily tempted" to vote Venmar earlier

But TD explained in his very next post that he only said that out of frustration, and never intended to actually vote him. Mac seems to have ignored that post entirely.

So what you're telling me... is that he's wrong for not reading a backtrack? I'd understand if this was like, y'know, something less scummy. But TD backtracked the hell out of that post. He went all guns blazing at Venmar, only to later say, "Oh, I never REALLY wanted to vote him!"

...Remind me why it's scummy to assume such behavior?

I agree with TD's backtracking was fairly scummy, but in Mac's mind, TD can't both be scummy for, as Mac said, soft-FOSing Ven and waiting for more traction, and ALSO scummy for quickly backing off when someone else voted Ven. From reading Mac's posts, it seems the former, that Mac didn't read post 49 and thought that TD was soft pushing Ven waiting for more votes to jump on. However, when I corrected this to him, he stated:

ok. i was wrong. remind me why that makes me scum?

I've justified my place on this wagon already.

As I stated earlier, his only posted justification was in 138 (cited above) where he says only that he doesn't like the way TD has been playing so far (meaning posts before 138).

So, at 245, he's on a large wagon, which grew extremely quickly, and has just had one of his primary reasons for being on the wagon reveled to be incorrect. His reaction is to stay on the wagon, and not bother to examine the people on it at all? This isn't town motivated at all.

I'll give you this. This is actually pretty decent reasoning for Macscum.

[thezmon221]

The contrast between this Mala and the scum-replace-in mala from my Newbie is pretty strong, and even absent from her meta she's been reasonably towny. Townread on that slot.

Mala feels rather town to me as well. Majiffy is just being a jackass at this point in time. Plain and simple.

Wait a fucking minute.

Being caught up is not alignment-indicative.

You say this...

But I went and reviewed your nhammen read...

In my post above I posted:
"BeautyAndTheBeast, notscience, Venmar, take this Breaking Bad discussion ELSEWHERE. We"
when I meant to post:
"BeautyAndTheBeast, notscience, Venmar, take this Breaking Bad discussion ELSEWHERE. We are averaging more than 1 page per hour. I will not be able to keep up at this rate."
The reason only part of this got posted is because I realized that if I took the time to preview my post, then I would have to add more to it, and then preview and then add more, etc.

Oh, I also forgot to
VOTE: FTL
Multiple wagons helps find out who is scum later on, and I feel both TD and FTL need pressure. And FTL is slightly scummier than TD.

-Snipping all this crap-

Except that's not what happened.

VOTE: Mac

Wait what? I'm confused. What is the reason for this vote?

second post of your and so far I hate everything about both of them

Firstly, this is the closest I could find to a reason why you think he’s scum. And this is mollie, not Majiffy.

Secondly, he’s being hammered by y’all because of aggravation at you… wait for it… because you’re spamming about Breaking Bad and the fact that you guys are posting a lot.

Is that truly scummy? In the words of Majiffy, it's not alignment-indicative. So by your

own

submission, he should be null. All three of his posts were related to how he couldn't keep up with the game, hence why he replaced out.

Long story short: You have absolutely zero town motivation with the last page or so. You are pissing Mala off for a VERY trivial agenda. Give her some fucking time to catch up before you hammer away about her cases and reads. She’ll post them when she has the full story.

I mean shit, she’s still reading where I haven’t replaced yet. I’d argue my play versus pappa’s has been rather different. (as of Post 751)

So stop being such a douche, Majiffy.

[thezmon221]

Wait. Is mollie still playing? Or is Majiffy the lone head? (I ask this because Majiffy said "we" in 755)

[thezmon221]

Tell me, as a professional glue-huffing connoisseur, do you prefer polyurethanes or polyvinyl acetates?

Polyvinyl acetate.

You admit that it's Mollie's post, then proclaim

my

submission. Last I checked, we

are

two different people.

And I'm pretty sure I've touched on nhammen scum so you can go back to digging in that ISO.

Oh, my bad.

You mean this?

Current scum candidates: FTL, TD (for reasons described by 81 and 91)

Where are these reasons? I didn't see them. You also did not quote any posts numbered 81 or 91 in this post. Please elaborate immediately.

This is literally the only feasible post of your reasoning for nhammen being scum. So uhh... Reasons or I call bullshit.

Why are you voting nick, he's town

Mmm... no.

^^^

Speaking of that, let it be heard that I'm completely okay with lynching either RachMarie or nickthename if either wagon progresses a decent amount.

[thezmon221]

Nickthename:

His is more of a conflict-of-interest type read. I view Mac as pretty town-like, and I’m not a big fan of his case on Mac in post 272. Plus, he was delayed in his reasoning for Mac. It seems a bit like a fit-the-evidence-for-the-read shnindig.

Not to mention, he voted for Venmar for his PGO claim, then quickly changed his vote to TD, in a similar kind of feel to FTL’s hop from one to the other… The reasoning for TD was poor, at best (Post 102).

I do like some of his posts, but those two pointers outweighed what I viewed as town.

+

I'll give you this. This is actually pretty decent reasoning for Macscum.

=

Speaking of that, let it be heard that I'm completely okay with lynching either RachMarie or nickthename if either wagon progresses a decent amount.

What am I missing here? Also, do you still think mac is town?

I still think that you have rather underwhelming evidence to prove Mac scum overall. I feel his town play has far, far outweighed his scum play. Thus, the discussion on the cases still left me in a relatively similar position, albeit the reads are not as strong as they once were.

There's still the fiasco with the Venmar and TD hop in the first quoted post which doesn't help you too much.

Oh, and I still think Mac is town, as was probably evident from my first paragraph.

Ooh, I like Themonz's 506. I'm not seeing AJ town though. Anyone want to clue me in on why AJ is town?

His posts have been concise, and are consistently filled with information. There's little fluff involved. Also, he's playing like the town meta I know of him, and I know him the best of anyone here. (Not unlike fery + mollie from my understanding)

[thezmon221]

I have seen town-AJ once and I'm not really seeing it, but I will need to take a closer look. So they were impatient and started w/o me on League. (fuck you andy </3)

This post should be pretty justifiable. Instead of jumping on the shit wagon that was TD, he decides to pursue his own reads. But if you have me as town (which I am going to assume you do), then you should let me deal with Aj. Right now, he's looking pretty town.

Of course, sometimes that read changes after flips have happened, but for the most part I have been accurate on D1 reads of him.

[thezmon221]

You mean this?

Current scum candidates: FTL, TD (for reasons described by 81 and 91)

Where are these reasons? I didn't see them. You also did not quote any posts numbered 81 or 91 in this post. Please elaborate immediately.

This is literally the only feasible post of your reasoning for nhammen being scum. So uhh... Reasons or I call bullshit.

Let me ask you something; did he elaborate? No. Mmkay then.

Looked to me like he was more concerned with the fact that there were a hell of a lot of posts that he had to read, such as the beginning of mollie's quoted (about Breaking Bad).

But humor me, then. How strong was your read on nhammen, and how much has Mala's entry skewed that?

Thez have you played with AJ scum before?

Have I played with AJ-scum before, hah. I taught him how to play scum. Or, well, I was one of his mentors when he first played scum.

Let me reiterate to you - we're from the same offsite. He's played about 2 years, and I've played about 3, approaching 4. Almost every game he's played on that site has been with me, or with me modding it. Granted, he's evolved over the years (as have I, and just about everyone else), but I still read him fairly well.

[thezmon221]

Looked to me like he was more concerned with the fact that there were a hell of a lot of posts that he had to read, such as the beginning of mollie's quoted (about Breaking Bad).

But humor me, then. How strong was your read on nhammen, and how much has Mala's entry skewed that?

Nhammen showed no signs of original thought, and spent a good deal of his posts making himself to

look

pro-town instead of

being

pro-town. He was my strongest scum read up to his replacing out.

I see a lack of really any thought at all in his posts. More complaining about the fact that the game was going at a high speed.

Mala's entry was piss-poor,

particularly reading Mollie wrong

and completely ignoring my contributions (and probably a good majority of the ISO, I'd say) to the slot. Looked very fabricated. Hence why I started pushing her to answer about her scumread, and why I'm perturbed that her response is "jeez let me finish catching up!" as if that has any relevancy to the question.

She was evading. She continues to keep the slot scum.

Okay, town read on Mollie from page 16+.

This brings us to two concerns of mine.

1. Majiffy, I know you're an experienced player. Do you seriously think Mala is wrong because she's reading your hydra wrong? That's ridiculous.
2. Notice the quote that follows. Mala changed her opinion after she got to read more. Guess what - she's not evading, she's reading. Let her finish, and then ask her what she thinks of a case. Shit changes (such as the pappa-to-me read) and you just need to be patient.

[thezmon221]

More complaining about the fact that the game was going at a high speed.

- Yeah but those read as GENUINE, and ESPECIALLY because he followed through by replacing out.

Why do you think I don't have him as scum? Because that's what I think too.

[thezmon221]

2. Notice the quote that follows. Mala changed her opinion after she got to read more. Guess what - she's not evading, she's reading. Let her finish, and then ask her what she thinks of a case. Shit changes (such as the pappa-to-me read) and you just need to be patient.

You're ignoring the meat of the argument. If she had a scum read - what is so hard to explain why? Instead of explaining, she evaded.
And why did she

ignore my half

of the hydra entirely? I was doing a majority of the posting.

I'd assume because she reads mollie better than you. But the point is - what does it matter what her read is on page 10 when there are 30+ pages and her read is bound to change?

However, I'll let her explain the negligence of your posts. Especially since she's now telling me to back off.

PEDIT: Hi Skull. I'd love to converse with you since it was interrupted before.

[thezmon221]

yes Z dude is the zmon one I call the other one muffin to keep them straight. Also call notscience Notty so it does not get confused with NS who is my fiance.

1. Of course I know that the top row was scum. That's why I questioned Mala/nhamm's placement in there. Nobody had really given me a reason to believe they are scum at that point in time.
2. I'm going to call notscience NS. Deal with it.


Furthermore, I am starting to warm up to notscience some more. He's actually being useful.

To add to that, I'm going to totally sheep Molliffy here, since it gives me the perfect reason to hop ships to a different wagon. Plus, I do still have reasons which have been expressed in the past.

VOTE: nickthename

Oh, and I like most of the names on the wagon, so that's a plus. Mastin's looking really scummy about this time, though...

[thezmon221]

Mastin's looking really scummy about this time, though...

Drop it, thez. You're one of the townreads I'm faking confidence in. I am town. I'm about as town as I can possibly be in a game. Not at my strongest scumhunting-wise (working on it), sure, yes, but town all the same. If you're town like I'm thinking, then you can trust me to be town this game.

I'm not convinced. I'm convinced of quite the opposite. Instead of claiming to be obvtown, how about you start showing me you're town? If you do that, I'll be willing to work with you. Either way, I have bigger fish to fry anyways. I'm going to hope you sort yourself out this game sooner than later.

By the way, I'm not inclined to trust any of your reads when you're scum. Especially your Rach read, which is just wrong.

Bert/thezmon

You can stop associating him with me pleasssse. I know we're the same slot, but my play is miles away from his.

[thezmon221]

You can stop associating him with me pleasssse. I know we're the same slot, but my play is miles away from his.

...
Two RVS posts and a fluff post?

Why is this a problem?

Not really a problem. But his play wasn't exactly good. I honestly won't make a fit at all about it; that was probably more of a spur-of-the-moment thing.

FTL looks like town to me, and I've pretty much liked most of their posts. There may be a few which're concerning, but I really, REALLY don't see why people are wagoning them. I've had no issues with the content the slot has provided, and yes, they ARE providing plenty of it if you care to read.

I'd like to think that one of my opening posts (I think my 3rd post if you ISO) does a pretty good job in the form of justification. Just about all of it, if not all of it, still applies.

thezmon221 is a player I need to refresh my memory of his scumgame on. His posts have seemed town enough, and I had no problem with Nachopappa (as little as he gave), but I still need to be careful. I have my eye on thez, but am considering thez town for now.

We were in Street Racers together, brah. And you're modding a game where I flipped scum, brah.

RachMarie is a decent townread of mine, and actually deserves to be higher up on the list. However, a specific scenario I am thinking about is keeping her from being town, and bumps her below the zany demon.

NONONONONONONONONONONONO

Rach is scum.

By the way. 5 scum slipping. Mastin, are you sure you didn't receive a scum role PM?

[thezmon221]

And you're modding a game where I flipped scum, brah.

First and last time I am warning about this. This ruins games. Stop.

Got it.

Hole number two: FTL is almost certainly town.

Do tell.

That said, even if there isn't an announcement, that's the number we have. 21 players is too small for 6 scum and too large for 4 scum.

I'd think 6 isn't a terrible number. Even if it was an SK or something.

[thezmon221]

We need to lynch Rach today. Not only will the entire TD wagon be cleared, but we'll also know that FTL is definitely scum. The nick and mastin wagons need to go away.

I'd be okay with that lynch too. But nick is a bigger wagon and more support has been garnered for it.

Lolmmkay, {mastin, rach} is great too. Anyone who is townreading nacho, why? He hasn't done much yet, he's squarely null for me.

That's honestly why I'm scumreading him (albeit null). From my experience, he's more often scum when he lurks. Don't think I've seen a lurky nacho town yet.

[thezmon221]

If the nick wagon shows stalling, then I'll consider the switch. But for now, my vote will remain on nick.

However, if there is a display of interest in a Rach lynch by many people not on the wagon, I suppose that'll convince me to move as well.

[thezmon221]

Hey Thezmon (or Nacho, since you're here), please tell me you're seeing Mala as scum. It almost feels like a bus at this point, she's so tunnel-centric on FTL. I'd go so far as call it basic scum tactic 101, man. We see this all the time, so if you want to help me lynch this, that'd be great.

It's progressing. But my read on her is one of my most unstable. I have very, very little to go on in the form of the read, and after my wk'ing spout I gotta take a step back and reevaluate.

I like some of her reads, though.

How much do you want notscience dead this very minute?

I'm pretty content with him being in the game. He's not detailed, but he's conftown and DOES do stuff for the town and is definitely trying to help. It took a bit of effort to get him there, but I noticed it when I was talking with him about his reaction fish.

VOTE: RACHMARIE

redemption. sweet, sweet redemption.

you are scum aren't you

Wouldn't doubt it. But.. Rach is scum, so it's win:win in this case.

[thezmon221]

Sorry I wasn't on earlier. Got to read, but not quite to post.

By the way. 5 scum slipping. Mastin, are you sure you didn't receive a scum role PM?

Stuff like this is bad. mastin isn't

this

dumb. It's extremely likely he legitimately thought the host said there were 5 scum in this game - whether that actually happened is another case altogether, and I seriously doubt it has anything to do with his alignment, regardless of whether he's actually town or scum here.

I’m not voting him. I figured it was more of a slip up in his mind of, “I thought it said something here, but I guess I misread.” Hence why you don’t see a vote from me.

I didn't say he was probably town, but yeah generally I read someone who is thinking along the same lines as me as town. town moves in herds.

I get that you don't like the aTe thing but tbh that is a null tell for him I think. I think you ought to give him a day.

I have been scum with mastin before and he is usually a bit more careful, right now he seems very involved (someone said he felt disconnected and I whole-heartedly disagree) and trying to feel his way around a bunch of players who know each other. the reason I have him sus is cos he was nice to me, which in and of itself is not a good reason to lynch him on d1 over my top scumspect.

Okay. This is reasonable.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Andrius

Whaaaaat?

You go from championing a wagon... to immediately jumping ship the first logical sign of reasoning for mastin being town shows up? Anybody else get some whiplash here?

On a related note, mastin is definitely town in my book. But it bugs me that he considers himself conftown. But yeah, I'll work with him for now. I'm also going to take a look at some of that Andy meta when I get the chance, and then I will decide whether I will vote for him or RachMarie, since apparently nick is rather town for a lot of people. Maybe a reevaluation of him by me is also needed. So many things to do... So little time. I'll post my reads list when this is all said and done.

[thezmon221]

Why would he bother reading conftown, NS? Seems counter-productive.

[thezmon221]

If the vig

does

shoot NS.. I think I will personally hunt you down and kill you.

You're talking to Muffin, not me, right? Just making sure, because I might be a little heartbroken if you were talking to me.

Went ahead and read the Andy meta as town, and then his posting here. I DO notice a contrast in the posting. He seems more... well, some others put it as hyper-aggressive so that's the term we're going to use. Changes reads substantially.

HOWEVER, I'd still rather a Rach lynch because she is indefinitely useless in this game. I would not be heartbroken if we decided to lynch Andy, though.

VOTE: RachMarie

Going to do a readthrough of nick soon and decide on him.

@NS: Your humor lacks.

[thezmon221]

My humor is amazingly shit

FTFY

[thezmon221]

Do you want to lynch someone because they are useless or because they are scummy. Personally, I rather do the latter then the former.

Allow me to elaborate. She's scummy, and I think Andy's scummy. Rach gets the edge

because

she's useless. This isn't my PL vote, this is a serious scumhunt vote. I think she's scum, and she's obviously useless.

[thezmon221]

Why would he bother reading the N1 vig target? Seems like a waste of time.

Why would he bother reading conftown, NS? Seems counter-productive.

ewww.....

no really EWWWWWWW.....

Go ahead and whine all you want, mollie. Just take from these quotes that MuffinMan called him a Vig target.

so

I just want to get this straight. you would rather lynch useless scum than useful scum cos of....why?

Rach is a more solid scum read of mine. Andy's read is much more a meta read, and I don't like basing votes off of meta if I am not 100% confident I am right in that instance. I think Rach is more likely to flip scum than Andy, plain and simple.

[thezmon221]

11. thezmon221 Nachopappa--- Dude is probably town though not sure why the hostility? I really am a sweet chick However his tunneling looks more town tunneling than scum tunneling.

Do you... know what tunneling is? And what hostility is? I am expressing the fact that I think you're scum, I don't think I've actually been hostile to you. I also haven't even remotely tunneled you. The fact that my read hasn't changed isn't me tunneling. That's you not posting.

What about Thez is pinging your scumdar? How he shifted from "vigpls" to "he isn't THAT bad" towards me?

I honestly don't remember that switch if so, thez gets triple points.

the timing. and his reluctance to vote andy but he was gung ho about sheeping us onto a nicky lynch.

Mollie, I made that switch a while ago. Post 712 is when I had a change of heart and didn’t want him vigged (though did not announce it). Post 939 is when I publicly displayed that I am alright with him being alive.

Furthermore, you are misrepping me hard. I changed my vote to nick because you guys did too, but that was after a realization that a FTL wagon was stalling, and FTL was starting, a bit, to show that he might be town to (FTR, I think he’s probs town). I did not, in any way, sheep your read, only the vote because it was a smoother transition. I had my own read on him, and felt he was scum all throughout the process. I put my vote on him due to the stall, and that is why I have changed it again. Notice this:

Speaking of that, let it be heard that I'm completely okay with lynching either RachMarie or nickthename if either wagon progresses a decent amount.

I changed my vote for exactly as I publicly stated in this quote – because the nick wagon was progressing.

[thezmon221]

And your

[Rach]

reads post is just awful. Not only do you STILL not have any legitimate reads, your first legitimate vote is blatantly passing the buck off on mollie and Jiffy. You don't even think Andy is scum, but because mollie/Jiffy are often right when they are town, you are going to sheep them?

I counted 6 reads that were unspecified as town/scum, or were null, and almost every read, except I think BatB and NS was a "lean" or "weak" read of a type. NS doesn't count either since he's an Innocent Child and mod confirmed.

But yeah, I'm totally okay with lynching her after that reads post. That coupled with every other post she's made is awful.

[thezmon221]

Look again I have Andy as leaning scum

And 6 reads that are displaying no alignment or are null. And every player except for BatB as some weak ass read.

I admitted my reads suck, but it is early. A lot of the pages here really are more noise than signal which means it takes a while to sort out the wheat from the chaff duh.

I rely a lot on Meta especially if I have not played a bunch of games with someone, which is why I was asking for links so I can skim through and see if I can get a better handle on some of the other players.

...

...

...

So... You have gathered nothing, because there's apparently very little in the form of information involved in the past 1400 posts. Yeah... no. We've all been able to make cases, why aren't you able to?

Furthermore, if you rely so much on meta that you can't make a read without some meta, then you really need to learn how to scumhunt. Newsflash: I haven't played with probably at least half of the player's list, and I haven't used meta for any of those players except for Andy.

PEDIT: And 1402 too.

[thezmon221]

Because I had some confusion on the hydrae? Hello do you know how many games I have played in with varying heads of the hydrae in different combinations?

GIF has a few
Cabd has a few
fery has a few
Syr has a few
So yeah had some confusion....

Didn't you address the heads of the hydrae inside the game, too?

That does not make me scum. oh and BTW there Z dude.... scum is far more likely to read things carefully over scum. Feel free to check out the first Xeno game where I was scum. here a link for you http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=28572

False. I read things more carefully as town than scum. As scum I generally look for crumbing, or merely make my reads based off of posts that I do not go quite as in-depth with. As town, I am playing as I am, which is looking at the posts, and picking apart posts that unsettle me (and some that I do find good). That is a player tell at best.

[thezmon221]

There is 1405 posts you expected me to read each one carefully?

I expect you to actually read the game and discern what is important in certain posts there. Of course there's a decent amount of fluff. But you are making it sound like there is a lot more than there really is. There is a ton of information to be had, and you must not be having it.

I rely on Meta and my understanding of players I have played with before, town hunt as well as scum hunt, use PoE, look for logic and patterns, and am a big picture sort of person.

1400 posts in 1 day phase is a pretty big picture.

So far I have not yet found enough to have super solid reads on any player but the most well known one who I happen to have a lot of meta on,

because I am genuinely not sure. I had Andy as leaning scum, partly because his play here is different in some ways from his play in the first Xeno game. I was not setting B n B up for blame, I was adding their read on Andy into my read and it was enough to tip the scales to make a vote.

FTFY. Take a stance, and read the posts. Formulate cases based on what's in the game.

Pedit Well then you are somewhat different then, many people are more careful with their play as scum than as town.

I know a few. Took a skim through your meta, by the by, and noticed that apart from being more active, there isn't much of a difference.

This push on Rach is bad and should feel bad

Remind me of the push you're making. Oh, you're not making one?

[thezmon221]

I'm trying to get Andy lynched

He has not posted in like a day

There's a difference between putting your vote in someone and being proactive with that lynch. As far as I can tell, you're the former.

You are pushing a wagon on someone that is A) null and b) Will not gai nany information whatsoever.

She's scum as far as I, and 5 other people, are concerned.

[thezmon221]

that's not enough to vote nor will you get enough

What isn't enough to vote?

[thezmon221]

I admit I had not really read much of the past 20 pages since page 36 I was busy trying to get a preliminary reads list out, got tired of peeps calling me useless

You can fix that by actually reading the posts and creating reads that don't look like you slapped them together in about 2 minutes. There is literally no depth of your reads here, and I see absolutely no effort from you.

[thezmon221]

I admit I had not really read much of the past 20 pages since page 36 I was busy trying to get a preliminary reads list out, got tired of peeps calling me useless

You can fix that by actually reading the posts and creating reads that don't look like you slapped them together in about 2 minutes. There is literally no depth of your reads here, and I see absolutely no effort from you.

for the love of everything.

SHE DOES THIS AS EITHER ALIGNMENT.

Everyone is calling her scum and pushing her for being useless, but her reads really don't develop until later.

Have you done a meta check on her?

>.>

Yes, I read a bit of her meta. Like I said, all I noticed was some more activity as scum than here. The problem is her apparent disconnect from the game. She hasn't done ANYTHING to help the game, and has only either done IIoA, made redundant comments, or made something parallel to this reads list. She's on a fence and refuses to get down from it. She makes disconnected questions, she is rather inactive in this game, and her overall tone is useless. Seriously, go look through her ISO and tell me she is helping the town. She has zero town motivation at this point in the game, which leads me to believe she is lurking scum. All she does is make side comments and asks questions that are usually obvious answers and then disappears.

For fuck’s sake, “Who are the hydrae?” LOOK ON THE GOD DAMN FIRST POST. Seriously, that’s a useless question. I don’t care how many hydrae Cabd has with so and so, she can look on the front page and determine this herself. But nooope, she’s gotta go ahead and post it because it looks like she’s engaging when she’s NOT ENGAGING in discussion.

Spoiler: An entire commentary post-by-post of Rach's ISO up to her reads list:

Simple
call NachoP Bert cause it is Bert, and Nacho is Nacho

No fair you guys n gals I did not get to RVS


Want to take a look at the interplay tween B n B and SoS

I do realize of course that the Mollie head and the fery head are long time friends from another site, but want to be sure it is not being used as a cover for buddying.

Nacho needs to get in here and POST

peeps with votes on Venmar need to like remove them for a bit, the claim will sort itself out soon enough, and speaking of claiming...

Var head of FTL no do not claim that is what got you in trouble before. Don't make me spank you, young man.

more later and hey Nick cool to get to finally play with you in a forum game instead of a skype game.

Pedit ya all slow down long enough for me to post grrrr....

Yes Papa is Bert

Bro why would you assume that? Each game is randomized and its a very low chance that you are scum in BOTH games? Especially since this time its not multiball as per the OP.

I may use meta to figure out people's alignments, but I never assume that because someone is scum in Game A they must be scum in Game B. In fact usually it is not the case that someone is scum in back to back games.


Pedit # 2

Notty its no longer RVS duh Time for content please

IIoA. All of it is except the bolded. By the way, that bolded is gambler's fallacy that apparently a large percentage of the mafia-playing population doesn't understand. Each game is independent of another, which means one does not impact the other. He has a 1/21 chance of getting every role crafted. And last game he had a 1/25 (?) chance of getting whatever role he had. Nothing else to it. Shallow question, waste of a post.

NS was like a kid in a candy shop last night because he had been waiting so long for the new season Jiffy.

It was kinda cute seeing him all excited like that over a TV show lol.


pedit


j

Spam post.

Could everyone please tone it down a bit it is a game not a war jeez.

1. I gather from that that Notty is basically an Innocent Child mod verified?

2. Whats with all the claiming anyways I think like half the people in the game practically have not even posted or not posted much...

3. Besides his reaction to Venmar's claim is there even a case on TD? Something other than oh he was scum last time please.

Obvious answer to the bolded #1. You could take a quick look at bork's ISO, or check a few posts ago and tell that it is.
#2 bolded: PGO claim is understandable, as it should be. IC claim is a derp move, but still a confirming move. Useless question and gather nothing from it.
#3 bolded: Seriously, this is the most shallow question ever. Firstly, LOOK AT THE THREAD ONCE IN A WHILE. Secondly, the sentence is completely disassociated. That was never an accusation.

I presume this is the cabd head of trust fund?

Could you explain your case on him, besides the whole thing with Venmar?

Cause though I can see how that would look scummy, the fact we have a wagon build up this fast this early before everyone has even posted kinda sets up my scumdar a tad.

Probably the only post that actually displays content and not shallow questioning. However, it was never followed up on. You know who is more likely to make questions and not follow up on them? Scum.

well this game will be.... interesting (in the sense of the old Chinese curse May your life be interesting that is).....

Whether TD is scum or town I am not sure on, but I am leaning town cause that wagon hell Nacho has not even posted yet..... And a few others as well. 8 of 11 votes? Cmon guys n gals we need to examine those on his wagon duh.

No need to get worried Mollie just I am not 100% sold that both your slot and hers are town. Given time will be better at sorting it out. And part of that would be finding out if its just hey we know each other or that you are playing buddy buddy knowing peeps would think it too blatant to be buddying. As Jiffy and Syr post that will help too.

Pedit the PGO kills the doc and so does the scum who tries to kill I believe but not positive on that.

Waffle on TD, and then goes right to stating the obvious. IIoA all up in this joint.

yeah I know Jiffy has been posting more. and yeah I am getting more of a towny feel now for B n B.

Still would like to hear more from Syr as well as fery though.


Someone said that a lurky Nacho is always a scum Nacho and I disagree I have seem him be a lurky loo when he was town as well as when he was scum, and I have seen him as both town and scum being fairly active. With him just depends on whats going on. So yeah you need a bit more than oh hes lurking he must be scum Nacho. Especially since when you look at his posting history he has not been posting much of anywhere. I know he had to borrow his GFs computer a while back, so maybe he still is having to borrow it not sure on that.

What is with this lovecrush on Nacho? It had only been a few hours, and she is automatically jumping to conclusions that he's a lurk.

Second paragraph is ironic, because Rach never talks anyway, and talks about very little.

I can see how that would sound ambiguous lol trying again

I meant more from Syr and not just fery that make more sense?

ye gods

Sorry about that Mollie its more confusion than anything else. This game totally exploded faster than I thought it would. Going to look at some ISOs

FTR anyone who has ever played with me knows I get suspicious of fast wagons and quick lynches.

About time you got here Nacho

Wait Andy is playing too? where is he?

grumble grumble I will take some time to get a handle on this game

Could someone let me know who the heads of the hydrae are?

Other than B n B I know that one is Mollie and Jiffy.

The hydra issue. Firstly, the whole post is IIoA. Secondly, 140 posts past, and only 16 hours pass. You forget that quickly of the SoS hydra? Mentions their hydra in 432 too. Oh yeah, and it’s in OP.

572 and 634 are 2 and 4 word posts.

z dude you do realize that the top three on their list were their scummiest reads right?

Question with an obvious answer.

By the way, this is in conjunction with me asking, “Why do you think Mala?” which may be ambiguous, but either way, I obviously know there’s a read there, and I’ve played with BatB a few times, so I know the process of how they post their reads.

how can you be so sure. every game I have been in with innocent child the scum make an effort to kill the innocent child (or in the case of Less Pressure--Innocent children).

I have not given a large list of reads yet because oh duh 36 friggen pages with some peeps not yet talking or not talking much....

On top of that had some modly things to do.

And yeah my knee still hurts.

BTW I will get on this game a lot more after I rest my knee and we take Lucky to the vet today. He has been throwing up a lot and I am worried about him.

yes Z dude is the zmon one I call the other one muffin to keep them straight. Also call notscience Notty so it does not get confused with NS who is my fiance.

Var you and MS really need to get it together more its making extremely difficult to figure out your slot.

more later dudes and dudettes

Re:bolded: I seemed to be able to post a reads list with I think 3 or 4 reads also elaborated upon. Yet more real world discussion.

1. Aj The Epic Probly town it feels like aj town rather than aj scum. but this one is a weaker town read.

2. Andrius Ehh the buddying with Nacho is normal for him, The reliance on Nacho vetting for him being town also normal, but his play just does not feel right here leaning scum, Andy can you provide me with some links to scum games you have completed thanks.

3. BeautyAndTheBeast (pirate mollie + Majiffy) I am definitely getting a towny read here.... Given more time will have a more solid read on them since I usually can catch Jiffy scum eventually, but in the town pile for now and mollie feels more like her towny self so yeah town.

4. BROseidon ehhh weak town read here mainly based on the stats, but he feels like hes genuinely scum hunting...

5. Desperado Confirmation Bias much there Des? Seriously dude have you even read any of my town games, weak scum read here. Seriously dude do your homework instead of just focusing on the low hanging fruit.

6. Faster Than Light (Varsoon + Metal Sonic) OMG head exploding here.... these two really need to get their hydra act together, nullish due to I see scummy MS and towny Var, need more congency from the slot tween these two to sort it out better.

7. Ghostlin Ehh feeling more like the town Ghosty here, but have not played as many games, could you provide me links of town and scum Ghosty? Thanks A couple of each is good enough.

8. Mac is Mac..... meh read atm but leaning to town... As he posts more will be able to solidify this.

9. mastin2 uhh WTF???? Brain is suffering from reading his ISO umm?? Need to reread it through.

10. Nachomamma8 What on earth Nacho What do you mean by revenge? ehh that being said its a tad early to rule him out as town I think.... Leaning Town... B n B could you further elaborate why you see him as scum at this point besides the connection with Andy?

11. thezmon221 Nachopappa--- Dude is probably town though not sure why the hostility? I really am a sweet chick However his tunneling looks more town tunneling than scum tunneling.

12. Malakittens nhammen--- Need more time to sort Mala out, she is very good at hiding herself when she is scum Mala... Still sorting....

13. nickthename--- Not much experience with this dude, though he did very well as scum in a skype mafia game and I did not realize he was scum even in LYLO so watching this dude carefully.... Leaning town but watching....

14. notscience umm duh... Do I really need to say on this one

15. RachMarie Sweet as sugar and doing her best to keep up with ya all as you add another 20 pages uggh...

16. Skullduggery Um Skull needs to post a LOT MORE... Nullish, might be scum by PoE but its too soon to figure that out until we get some flips PoE does not do a lot.

17. Sound of Silence (fferyllt + GuyInFreezer) Prolific posters but most likely town.

18. TiphaineDeath Dude you tunnel way too much... Which is making me wonder since you were scum last time and doing this mega tunneling.... Could you provide me with links to a cple town and a cple scum games?

19. Trust Fund (Cabd + Syryana) hmmm mostly cabd here need more syr. Not seeing the usual trolling and goofy much from Syr... So yeah very weak town read here need more from Syr...

20. Venmar Dude what you smokin? Not sure what I have done to you Do you have anything actual to your case besides the fact that I had not yet done reads? Leaning town however...

21. zMuffinMan Need to read some other games not played with this dude in completed games yet. Could you provide me with a cple town and a cple scum games thanks.

I know my reads suck there is obviously more scum out there than what I have, But at this point I have not yet been able to peg them yet. Part of this is due to the number of players I have here that I usually figure out they are scum after a few flips and them not being NKed at night (cough cough jiffy, nacho cough cough)...

I generally suck on D 1 and do better later in the game after I can put more of the pieces of the puzzle together.

I do trust Mollie and Jiffy though when they are town they are often right...

VOTE: Andy

Major League Fence sitter. The bolded is ambiguous or null. Her "reasons" for her reads are also awful. (For an example: Post 1429)

There is absolutely NO REASON for a town-Rach to play like this. She has no effort showing, she asks useless questions, and she fluffs her post to hell. She tries to show that she is engaging or whatnot, but a closer look at her posts shows that she is not. If this isn't scummy, then I don't know what is.

Now, I need to go to sleep.

[thezmon221]

^ Yeah you are just PL'ing her for being useless.

You obviously only read like a sentence of that entire post and assumed that was the case. I'll sum it up for you. Rach is scum because...

1. She asks the most redundant and retarded questions in an effort to look like she's contributing.
2. She whores over IIoA
3. She has done absolutely no scumhunting.
4. When she does post, there is no content involved, just real life junk, IIoA, or empty questions.
5. Out of all those posts that I quoted, only one of them even had a glimmer of content.
6. A glimpse at her meta (and I don't use meta as a large factor of cases) shows almost the exact same play as Xenoblade, except that she is slightly more active.
7. She fence-sits the fuck out of this game. Only one read which isn't weak/ambiguous - Mollify (Because NS doesn't count).

But seriously, those seven pointers show

no

town motivation, nor any engagement into the game. It looks like she's just skating by, when I KNOW she is most definitely more active than she is presenting herself to be. Whether she is capable of having a fast start to games or not, this is scum right here.

So when she flips scum, you're next Mala for your awful WK'ing/buddying attempt which resulted in a terrible misrep of my case.

[thezmon221]

Btw, if rach does end up being scum, her buddies are all listed in her town reads section. Just saying. 3/3 on that being the case.

Just remembered this post as I made that other tldr post – TF, how many buddies are we talking here? 1 or 2, or all of them? Generally speaking, of course.

1.

Aj The Epic

Probly town it feels like aj town rather than aj scum. but this one is a weaker town read.
3.

BeautyAndTheBeast

(pirate mollie + Majiffy) I am definitely getting a towny read here.... Given more time will have a more solid read on them since I usually can catch Jiffy scum eventually, but in the town pile for now and mollie feels more like her towny self so yeah town.
4.

BROseidon

ehhh weak town read here mainly based on the stats, but he feels like hes genuinely scum hunting...
8.

Mac

is Mac..... meh read atm but leaning to town... As he posts more will be able to solidify this.
10.

Nachomamma8

What on earth Nacho What do you mean by revenge? ehh that being said its a tad early to rule him out as town I think.... Leaning Town... B n B could you further elaborate why you see him as scum at this point besides the connection with Andy?
11.

thezmon221

Nachopappa--- Dude is probably town though not sure why the hostility? I really am a sweet chick However his tunneling looks more town tunneling than scum tunneling.
13.

nickthename

--- Not much experience with this dude, though he did very well as scum in a skype mafia game and I did not realize he was scum even in LYLO so watching this dude carefully.... Leaning town but watching....
17.

Sound of Silence

(fferyllt + GuyInFreezer) Prolific posters but most likely town.
19.

Trust Fund

(Cabd + Syryana) hmmm mostly cabd here need more syr. Not seeing the usual trolling and goofy much from Syr... So yeah very weak town read here need more from Syr...
20.

Venmar

Dude what you smokin? Not sure what I have done to you Do you have anything actual to your case besides the fact that I had not yet done reads? Leaning town however...

For future reference - when Rach flips scum, assuming TF's meta on her holds true (quoted at the top), this is who she has as town.

[thezmon221]

You realise the game that you're quoting that from, she has her scum partner in the leaning scum pile, essentially ruining your theory, right?

Yeah, I was wondering that too. In the Newbie, maverick is her buddy and is leaning scum.

However, in Xenoblade she had both Bro AND orcinus as town. So that's a bit of a conflict.

Rach is scum because...

Plzplzplz back off Rach for now and help us lynch Andy. Mollie and I will sort out Rach as soon as possible; I think we have conflicting feelings on the slot, which always leads to SuperHappyFunTimes

^TM

during the night phase back-and-forth.

I might, if it wasn't a largely meta case. Can you sell a case to me that isn't based around meta? Because I feel really good about Rach right about now.

[thezmon221]

Says they're ALL misinterpreting his meta? Why not ask others who used meta for that too, such as Mala?

Hey, you know that push you said you were making on Andy yesterday?

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. Maybe it'd be a good time to make that push since we're at a bit of a standstill currently.

[thezmon221]

P-edit: Mollie: Trust us. Thezmon and I being on the same trail is a general definite good sign.

^ I am thezmon221, and I approve this message.

I'm not too set on Venmar, but when Rach flips scum I'll look at his posts more and determine to myself if his PGO really is just a gambit. His continual mastin push is weird, though. We're going to have to dig a bit more through some of her scum meta of reads lists to really determine if Cabd is right in the meta (because right now she's 1-1), but with no multiball, there's probably at least 2 scum in her list of people. I'm convinced at this point Mastin is town. What I do know is, I want Rach lynched. Aj, care to join the wagon, and then we can go after Mala tomorrow?

[thezmon221]

@nick: Read my post 1490 (and preferably 1430, since that's the in-depth version) please and thank you.

I also think you're wrong on mastin, with all due respect. I think he truly is struggling to get a game going, and is having a short stride right now. I have a good amount of confidence that he will pick it up, though, after we get flips. A mastin lynch isn't in our best interest today.

The other thing to think about, is that with a Rach lynch, we DO get a decent amount of information. When she's scum, Aj, TF and I are already working on associations and such, and actually have some pretty good leads, but need a tad bit of meta of her to double check our answers. In the offshoot she's town, though, then we can take a look at the people on both the Andy and the Rach wagons, and determine whether the Andy wagon was legitimate and the Rach wagon was a counter (which it's probably not, since I'm town and a ton of people I see on the wagon are probs town). So, we get to do wagon analysis on both wagons and have a ton of information from there.

That's to add in with the fact that we have 1500 posts of content anyways.

[thezmon221]

Thezmons #1430 is probably a nice example of why we should not be lynching Rachmaria

Hey. You're probably one of those players who resists just for pride reasons, aren't you? 1490sums up the whole argument if you're gonna be like Mala and said, "buh buh but you're voting her cuz she's useless." Fact of the matter is, it's far, far deeper than that, and the uselessness is centered on total scum motivation. Go ahead and read some more after 1490 of Aj's posts on association and such, and then read a few of Muffin. All signs point to Rach scum.

[thezmon221]

Thezmons #1430 is probably a nice example of why we should not be lynching Rachmaria

Hey. You're probably one of those players who resists just for pride reasons, aren't you? 1490sums up the whole argument if you're gonna be like Mala and said, "buh buh but you're voting her cuz she's useless." Fact of the matter is, it's far, far deeper than that, and the uselessness is centered on total scum motivation. Go ahead and read some more after 1490 of Aj's posts on association and such, and then read a few of Muffin. All signs point to Rach scum.

I'll get to this in my ISO.
MS and I have different opinions on Rach and we're reading the Rach wagon in a way that should be looked at.
Nice of you to notice that disparity, though.

-V

I haven't noticed much that you've done, to be honest, so I don't really know what you're talking about.

[thezmon221]

Thus, nick gives us info (high reward) while also not having much risk. Rach gives us not much info (low reward) even if the risk is also low. Andrius gives us info (medium reward) but has a higher risk (medium), and similarly escalated for Nacho/Malakittens/Venmar, who're all high risk/reward.

That is where I believe you are wrong. Rach is an extremely low risk (look at her activity and the posts), with a much underestimated high reward. Aj and I have talked a lot about it, Aj moreso about the association tells. She gives a ton of information, even if not necessarily from her mouth. Also, Cabd has the meta that can help lower the lynchpool tomorrow to what are her town reads, as she's bound to have at least 1, and probably closer to 2-3, scum in there. I believe nick, Venmar, and Nacho are all in there. Mala is an ambiguous read of hers. Andy is leaning scum.

Furthermore, your nick read seems weak comparatively. Outside of VCA (which isn't as accurate until you get flips), there isn't too much in the form of your association principle.

@Aj: We aren't lynching Mala today. kkthxbai

[thezmon221]

Mastin/skull/trust/Rach?????

Trust is town, Mastin is town, and Skull is scum lynchbait.

[thezmon221]

Mac-Trust-Muffinz-Skull-Mastin fuck rach, that's 5, and they all connect.

That's just awful. Mastin is town and Trust is town. Mac is more likely town than not, Mufffin is probably town, and once again, Skull is lynch bait. You're not very good at this, are you? Try reading some of these posts from time to time.

[thezmon221]

Mac-Trust-Muffinz-Skull-Mastin fuck rach, that's 5, and they all connect.

UNVOTE:

What happens to all of these attempts to nail the whole scumteam D1 when you and Mastin and AJ all realize that scum don't have to have connections to one another?

You know that Rach connects herself to other scum obviously, right? Because... Cabd just gave 2 links of doing so, and apparently has more. Besides, there's always some connection, but the point is, Rach is scum.

I fucking hate elaborate association analysis sans flips.

I can't think how many times the majority of the so called associations have turned out to be among town players.

There aren't many slouches in this player list. Scum associations will probably be pretty subtle.

And I want to point out that false associations buldermar and I laid down on day 1 of Xeno 1 helped cement two town mislynches on day 2 and 3 of that game.

Which is why I wouldn't jump the gun when Rach flips scum. It allows for more scrutiny of said players, and more things will come out as players flip.

[thezmon221]

You know that Rach connects herself to other scum obviously, right? Because... Cabd just gave 2 links of doing so, and apparently has more. Besides, there's always some connection, but the point is, Rach is scum.

Unless I read something wrong there are also examples that don't follow the trend you describe, which means that it's not even a trend.

And it's not limited to just Rach. Mastin's post reads like a deleted scene from A Beautiful Mind and I don't understand how that brand of scumhunting is useful D1.

I've been waiting on the aspect because of that wrong meta, Despo. I need Cabd to give me more games where the other is the case. If it's like a 4-1 in favor of Cabd's meta, then I'd be on board with it.

Not to mention she has been playing, like I said, very similarly to her Xenoblade scum game AFAIK. She was just more active in that game.

[thezmon221]

Thezmons #1430 is probably a nice example of why we should not be lynching Rachmaria

Hey. You're probably one of those players who resists just for pride reasons, aren't you? 1490sums up the whole argument if you're gonna be like Mala and said, "buh buh but you're voting her cuz she's useless." Fact of the matter is, it's far, far deeper than that, and the uselessness is centered on total scum motivation. Go ahead and read some more after 1490 of Aj's posts on association and such, and then read a few of Muffin. All signs point to Rach scum.

I hated your Rach reasons cause you tried to make every one of her posts looks scummy no matter what. When you try to make every single little thing about a person scummy, then you're just trying to fit the person to the read ( lol hey majiffy you taught me this one right? ). You're trying too hard, you're also probably barking up the wrong tree mister.

No, SHE made them scummy. You CANNOT argue with me that she has provided meaningful discussion, has not done a ton of IIoA, and is an overall town player. I refuse to believe that. Go ahead and show it to me that she is. I already had all the case together when I had the read. Notice that I had consistently given reasons for those scummy players since my first post. I don't do the trivial fit-the-evidence-to-the-read shit.

[thezmon221]

You can go ahead and tell me what IIoA stands for/is, but i'm not going to argue with you on this.

Information Instead of Analysis.

[thezmon221]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=28846 here you go another game that just ended where I was definitely town, and dealing with the stuffs I have been dealing with in RL. Originally was going be replaced, but the mod asked me as a favor when I realized I had not yet been replaced and the day deadline was getting close, to stay in the game which I did.

Sigh it is not one of my best performances

I'll take a closer look, but from a glimpse it is not dissimilar from here.

Spoiler: For FTL

506 : A bit late to be exploiting my posts for a mislynch, isn't it? No info is given in response to my posts, but just broad, victimizing speculation.

I posted what I felt about those posts. I didn’t post more of your posts because those were the ones that provided the most noise IMHO. However, I provided what I felt to be legitimate analysis of the posts, and it allowed me to take a starting stance.

510 : Doesn't seem to have experience with the Rach. Caught between a Rach and a hard place? Whatever gets his Rachs off. This post certainly can't stop the Rach. Okay, okay, I'm done. Really, though, I hate his buddy/corral of Muffin Man here and in the previous post. It's ugly.

1. I didn’t corral him. 2) The post 510 is NOT a buddying attempt. Try harder to paint me in a bad light. I merely told him to get off of the lynch, and that he “broke my heart,” which is actually a more common phrase of mine than you think for people that I believe to be town currently. For instance, your reads of a few people break my heart a bit.

629 : Gets so defensive with me, which is kinda cute, but not endearing in the least. Honestly, he assaults my character (you didn't read my posts approach), and somehow thinks his reads-list doesn't just parrot town sensibilities? Okay, sure. He even provided the qualifier of feeling weaker about scum, as if those reads could shift drastically given new evidence. Sounds real confident, individually progressive, and town. Wait, no, it's actually the opposite of that.

I’m not defensive. I’m pointing out posts that you obviously missed in an effort to actually be able to have a legitimate discussion and not a shitstorm involving you calling me some shallow and empty read. I rarely ever get defensive.

647 : I hate all the distance this slot keeps making with "You don't know/understand".

I made that comment a single time to someone who clearly did not have a grasp on the conversation and decided to interject at an inopportune time for them.

939 : Slips off my wagon when it's going nowhere to pursue an even easier one to push through to a mislynch? Oh, but I bet the reasons for it are soundly town and not something like, "I'm going to totally sheep Molliffy here, since it gives me the perfect reason to hop ships to a different wagon." Because, you know, that would only be like open admission to swapping to a wagon that you got consensus on before joining in scum-reading and then hopping when you saw an opportunity to do so! TheZMon would never implement such level-1 scum play! (Yeah bitches, the levels are back.)

Reach hard and misrep harder. I’ve always had a philosophy of wanting to lynch my best scumread whenever possible. If I have two very similar reads, then I’d be okay with leaving one for another if I’m not much more confident in the first. Of course, that’s not the case with Andy and Rach, because I DO feel I have something going here.

957 : It's a cool thing that you try to distance yourself from the scummy play of your slot earlier by being an insufferable elitist about it. Give me your number later cool guy, I want to go on a date and throw my drink at you and skip out on the bill. You'll probably call me scum for that, too, but won't hop on my wagon until a recognized townie does so. It's okay if you ironically refer to your play as scummy.

It’s pretty damn obvious that Bert’s play was seen as scummy by a number of people. However, when I came into the game, I played a much townier game, which is my reference. I am not saying he’s a bad player or whatever, but for the game I’ve played a better game for the town alignment.

1015 : You're okay with any mislynch, that's good. Oh, hey, hold on, what was that? "But nick is a bigger wagon and more support has been garnered for it." Where... is the town motivation for sheeping the Nick wagon again? I know you parroted reasons why -other- townies want Nick hung, but why do you get a pass when you're clearly playing Level 1 Scum? Well, at the very least, you're trying to consistently stay on a wagon that you support, rather than throwing your vote onto whatever wagon has mass-appeal, right?

See 939's point.

1354 : Well, at least, at the very least, TheZmon doesn't see it scummy when other people do the same thing as--"You go from championing a wagon... to immediately jumping ship the first logical sign of reasoning for mastin being town shows up? Anybody else get some whiplash here?" Okay, fuck it, I'm done. I give up. You're clearly yanking my chain or something. I bet you later go on to vote Rach, call more players useless, suffocate the IC, and tell people they are awful, don't understand, and CANNOT argue against you, for reasons that are poorly founded and contradict your play up to those points.
MS edit: Vig thezmon pls

Firstly, no. Just no. I didn’t champion a wagon until I decided I very, very much so wanted Rach lynched. Trust Fund was clearly the most vocal on the mastin wagon, and support was still garnered. Then, she switches when the first sign of something against the wagon that makes sense comes up. That is what I’m pointing to.
Secondly, go fucking misrep me harder.

[thezmon221]

@TheZmon : Devil's in the details. Of course you won't agree with my points. I've only ever had scum do that once when I snagged him.

Off-topic: You actually got scum to agree with your points against them?

[thezmon221]

That's strange. Huh.

[thezmon221]

Woo Town!

Guys, I'm really, really, really,

Spoiler:

really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,really, really, really, really, really, really

sorry that I fucked up and got myself replaced.

[thezmon221]

Varsoon, you were easily the 3rd best performing for scum, right behind NS and TD.

TD's play wasn't that bad. Especially not his early play (and I'm just going to assume you are not counting that, because that was pretty transparent town play IMHO). As for ns, cut him some slack. I was pissed at one point too, but you live and learn. His first time playing IC. Could he have played it better? Sure. But evenstill, he was someone you could trust to be 100% legit in his reads since he was proven town. That's one less person to worry about.