Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[Aj The Epic]

Holy shit! We AREN'T at 80 pages the first time I post? Finally.

Vote:Notscience

[Aj The Epic]

Huh. Regardless, got the reaction I was looking for from Venmar, so

Unvote

UNVOTE: TD
Got what I needed, thanks!

Are we all pretending we have reaction tests going in this game?

So far, the obvious choices for the early scum list are TFL, Nick, and TD deciding to vote for Venmar because of 'stupidity'. That's a copout reason. But I don't like the wagon, especially recently with weak votes from Nick and FTL. In fact, I really think Nick's true bad vote came on his vote on Mac, not TD. 210 and 218 felt like he was trying to pull some bullshit test off and even when he wants to vote Mac, he doesn't explain his reasoning for shit. He is obligated to explain such reasoning because he's suggesting a slip/misrep and therefore needs to bring it to light instead of saying "That's not what happened" when Mac essentially agreed with his original post.

VOTE: Nick

I actually am going to say TD's reactions feel genuine. He stepped bad and is feeling bogged down, which is something I completely understand.

TFL's attack on Nhaman was bad, which was really the first time I noticed him. I don't like MS on my own policy of him reading too fast to be useful, but the worst post from them was made by Varsoon, which surprised me. Off hand, what was Varsoon's allignment in Xenoblade? I didn't ever bother to check back in on the end result (stopped reading short of d4...)

Mollie/Jiffy and other hydras:

Spoiler:

When I sleep, I don't want nightmares about waking up to 70+ pages. Every game I in this category seems to love large post games. I've played Street Racers, Posh, and Xenoblades with the majority here, I know you're capable of posting that much. So you don't have to prove you are capable of 1,000+ pages d1 to prove you can. Got it?

P-edit: And the shit of this begins. Not even going to bother.

[Aj The Epic]

Alright. So it was just a trolly style. Thanks.

Guessing that's Jiffy in 253 (punctuation). So, I just read the game again (when making my last post) and I can tell you that most of the votes looked like this:

Blah blah blah I'm town

Vote:TD

[Aj The Epic]

You know, we've got it, should use it...

Spoiler:

SoS[1] votes BROseidon
TiphaneD[1] votes FTL
MuffinMan[1] votes NachoPappa

Notscience

[1] votes Trust Fund
AJ[1] votes

Notscience

Notscience

[2] votes

Notscience

TRUSTsasha[1] votes NachoPappa
Venmar[1] votes TiphaneD
MuffinMan[2] votes TiphaneD
NickTheName[1] votes Venmar
FTL[2] votes Venmar
NachoPappa[2] votes NachoMamma
TiphaneD[2] votes FTL
FTL unvotes Venmar
NickTheName[2] votes TiphaneD

TiphaneD[3] votes MuffinMan

B&B[1] votes TiphaneD
Mac[1] votes TiphaneD
Ghostlin[1] votes TiphaneD

FTL[3] votes TiphaneD

TiphaneD[4] votes Mac

TrustSasha[2] votes TiphaneD

NickTheName[3] votes Mac

Nhammen[1] votes FTL
B&B unvotes TiphaneD
AJ[2] votes NickTheName

Green for confirmed town (namely NS)
Red for any votes three and over.

Honestly, the only thing I notice is TD seems to flail a lot under pressure. Most of these first seem more random than anything.

[Aj The Epic]

Town has no reason to avoid flipping out, at least not on a primal/reactionary/emotional level. They won't think to themselves "oh god, I had better not flip out!", they just FLIP OUT.

SCUM, on the other hand, will sit back and try to calm themselves down so they don't react negatively. THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE. Thus a LACK of a reaction is a SCUM reaction. You're not looking for CALM townies. You're looking for CALM SCUM.

Not really. Someone like me doesn't want to be perceived as a person who completely flips shit all the time. I think it would be better if the majority of arguing in mafia was handled at a cold, anti-personal level but that's just me. I doubt this as a powerful scumtell, but I do use the opposite to find town... (Being genuine AtE vs fake)

[Aj The Epic]

I think he has nick for the same reason I did: His first vote was really bad (onto Venmar) and the one onto Mac wasn't explained immediately. Sure, with Venmar, he's simply wrong on how you play PGO (Venmar is right, you claim negative utility roles immediately... barring Miller which is just a weird role). His vote onto TD was "WTF is this shit", not strong reasoning at all... in fact, never any real reason supplied for this vote but to help a wagon that was just about to kind of die out continue on. I don't really mind his case on Mac AFTER he posts it, I simply think it should've been explained with the vote before letting it fall later down. He proceeds to do something I consider anti-town: His case justified his vote, not his vote justifying his case. Meaning he didn't look for a case until AFTER he decided to vote for Mac.

(And that's because someone wanted this earlier when I couldn't be bothered)

P-edit: Newsflash: TD wagon is dead.

[Aj The Epic]

I never quite understood the TD wagon. This isn't TD's scum game that I saw last game (and proceeded to get lynched for my opinion on it). He's playing completely out of sync with it. He was a subtly more opportunistic than he is here. Seeing as most of the players are returning, I don't quite understand why that wagon ever built up. Hence, I do believe B&B were right with the idea to analyze that wagon... I just wish they'd come with a more solid result. Blades was a short time ago, enough that everyone should be able to do their own meta memory check on TD to recognize that this is a completely different play-style for him.

FTL mine as well be scum. I can spoiler this sentence if need be, Muffin... Varsoons post to Nhm was awful and he's the reasonable one of that hydra.

[Aj The Epic]

I love how you dismiss everything I say thez.

[Irrelevant Sentence]

Pedit- Nick, that's because your reaction pegged you as scum so you're mudslinging me now sit down, shut up and prepare to eat rope.

1.

You misspelled "proper town play"

2.

Where's your vote again?

[Aj The Epic]

@Nacho:

I can't seem to catch you, so here are some questions:
Do you think that TiphaneD is frustrated with this game?
What's your read/analysis of Rach's posts?

What is your read/analysis of B&B's posts, especially considering the hydra dichotomy/dissonance that've merited some noise so far?

What has you reading us as town in this game?
What do you think of the people with least posts (SkullDuggery, AJ, Rach, Mastin, Desperado, Andrius, Ghostlin, MuffinMan)?
What do you think of the people with the most posts (B&B, TrustFund, SoS, Venmar, Me, and TiphaneD)?

-V

[/quote]

Alright. This is incredibly bad. The amount of questions asked to nacho is more or less meant to bog him down by asking his reads on half the game. More importantly, however, the bold. If anyone is having dissonance issues, it's this slot. Through and through, this is a scum post. However, I've seen reasons to believe that this isn't on Mala's team should she be scum, and I have reasons to believe Mala as scum...

[Aj The Epic]

Spoiler:

Mala are you scum

No. I'm happy also. I just finished 5 games and four of those were scum in a row.

Sounds fake. I've heard players express a true elation at the fact they've drawn town, whereas this is just boring for someone who seems to not want to play as scum.

Yep, fuck this shit. The next person to call me scum off my ISO receives my damn vote. I'm not fucking done catching up.

Being caught up is not alignment-indicative.

Give me time Jiffy.. Give me time..

Um let me think about that.

No. You're scum-reading us, yeah? Give me reasons. Otherwise, I call bullshit.

Calling me scum off my ISO without me being fully caught up is the most stupidest fucking thing I have seen. It's like not even giving me a freaking chance.

Want to know why? I don't see town-Mollie at all in the

15 pages I read

before replacing in. She's more "out spoken, aggressive and hunting for reads" and so far she isn't. I am scum reading you guys do to that and I already said that when I asked for Fery's explanation, but damn if I knew Mollie was going to rage-replace out due to Fery's answer I would have never asked in the first place.

Keep calling me bullshit when I already made the comment, but I never noted specifics.

This.is.not.town.Mollie.

VOTE: BeautyAndTheBeast

No, that's Jiffy-town. Same as always, almost lovable majiffy. But odd... 15 pages before your replace in, and yet... Apply some pressure and we get to see a bit of a reversal.

For what it's worth

I see town-Mollie on Page 13

.

Wow, okay..

VOTE: Faster than the light

Holy fucking scum-tell Batman.

Someone REALLY cares about how they look right now.

Hm. Someone caring how they look is a scum tell? But more or less, that was explaining where he'd be... So, let's see how you're doing. In any preceding post, a contradiction to this tell will be

bold

.

I have seen town-AJ once and I'm not really seeing it, but I will need to take a closer look. So they were impatient and started w/o me on League. (fuck you andy </3)

The game you played with me was a game where I was radically outspoken and my first town game on site. I had both you scum nailed down by day 2, and unfortunately no one listened, so I spent the rest of the game trying to get the rest of them to see my point.

... Can we not defend me? Let me defend for myself, thank you.

Caring about how you look? Could be coaching, but being to Thezmon, he's way smarter than protect a scumbuddy blatantly. He'd let you drop at this point.

Mollie

can you get jiffy to back off of me please?

Again, now you're trying to deflect votes. So, FTL is scum telling by explaining why he disapperars. And you're just asking Jiffy to back off so he doesn't get you voted? That's a scumtell. Appealing to the other slot in a hydra to stop that hydra's vote is pretty awful.

hi mala

are you the cat who hydra'd with mara in HxH mafia?


i am the sonic who masoned with gif and bork(our mod) over here

nice to meet you

Yes.

You aren't playing the same.

You scum slipped.

You are scum, tyvm.

Nice to meet you though.

This is my thinking. MS is always straightforward. As stupid as some of the stuff he says, he doesn't take any level of deception skills. So when he goes and tries to identify who Mala is, I feel that scum would already know the teammate switching in. I also remember Mala being incredibly hesitant to buzz JasonWazza in the newbie game and actually getting caught for it (unfortunately never lynched) so the whole interaction does not show true for either to be on the same team. Speculation? Yes. But it's enough to deter me.

Spoilered so Venmar can completely ignore a wall.

Vote:Malakittens

I have to say, though, I'm slightly flustered that Mala hasn't even attempted what I took for granted as a town meta replication in the newbie game. No analysis walls put with links that seem completely perfect. A lot of emotional play, but yet inefficient emotion in the expression of elation in her happiness to be town. All of this is off from what I've taken as Mala-town play (and I did a meta dive of her in the newbie game to try and find a flaw to exploit to get her lynched.)

[Aj The Epic]

Good vig shot: notscience (please)

This is bad. Confirmed town is still confirmed town, regardless. Make the scum kill this slot because they can't really let confirmed town stay alive. Less places to pressure, and should they get into lylo, their chances of success are devastatingly lower.

[Aj The Epic]

Oh God... now the issue with Notscience and Rach living together...

[Aj The Epic]

You guys should lynch Ftl he's scum. Ill even sing a song for you to gather votes on him.

Also AJ -

The newbie game play and this play here currently is not even remotely the same. I don't see how you can say it is. I also do not like you pushing that outlet because it reminds me of scum-UN doing the same thing to me at LyLo.

I'm just coming off off a 1:4 town:scum game ratio roll and I can say my town play took a beating in the course of that. Mollie scum read me a whole game when I was town during that.

Ps Mollie you are decent at reading me. You tend to read me well late on rather than early on if that makes any sense. Js

So what you're telling me is when you are all over the place, and when you decide not to include well-founded reason, that's scum. But when you go AtE and start posting like you have (Look at my iso, I have the case there for you), that's town? No. You were REPLICATING your town game in the newbie game. This is downright your scum play. Appealing to Mollie, who misread you in that game, isn't smart since I'm the one who found your slip. You've already proven your own scum tell on FTL to work with you, and you're trying to get Mollie to defend you.

I LIKE the nick wagon, he's all over the place, but I'm 99% sure Mala is scum again.

[Aj The Epic]

If memory serves, bork mentioned five scum being in the game, and I have six (plus super-sekrit mebbe-scumz-reads in a specific scenario).

Mind quoting where he said 'five scum'? I just read the opening post again and could not find any mention.

[Aj The Epic]

Add Mala, drop FTL, add Nick. I haven't seen a case on FTL that makes me think he HAS to be scum. These three (Nick/mala/Mastin) all have good reason to be scum.

[Aj The Epic]

Hey Thezmon (or Nacho, since you're here), please tell me you're seeing Mala as scum. It almost feels like a bus at this point, she's so tunnel-centric on FTL. I'd go so far as call it basic scum tactic 101, man. We see this all the time, so if you want to help me lynch this, that'd be great.

[Aj The Epic]

obviously there are scum pushing this bullshit

who is the scum?

Nick, Skull are scum pushing. The team I have is Nick, skull, Mala, with an end of TF/Rach/Andrius.

You want outside pushing?

I agree with the Mastin scum read.

I'm null on Rach and the rest I'm in disagreement, Even though I'm null-leaning town on SoS. I was townreading TF and this hasn't gone away because there was no reason for scum-TF to say my "reaching out tell in regards to Fery" is a null tell>

computer do not do this right now> let me enter the damn post< ty

Seriously, though: The writing is on the wall that Mala is scum this game.

I didn't realize that I became so damn outspoken when I had caught scum. The FTL thing was not TvT, that's a terrible assumption. Unfortunately, I'm probably going to end up on my second choice (nick) because I have two townreads and a conftown there right now.

[Aj The Epic]

Hey Trust fund. Your reads are bad, and you should feel bad. Wanna know why?

We don't kill confirmed town (NotScience). -100 town points.
We don't kill Probtown (FTL) -10 town points
Malakittens is in no way town. You're lacking any reason. -10 town points
Calling yourself town stinks. -10 town points
Zmuffin is more town than you. -5 town points
Nick, Nacho, and Bro have enough content to decide what to do with them. Especially nick. Stop being so easy on 'controversial' or important reads. Take a -15 town points.
Skull read: She votes mastin, so she's not a good scum read of yours? Only a lean? Come on. Not everyone who votes your target is scum. (you just lost all your town points here, so we're not going to dwell on how many that was)

So, you've just earned yourself a solid scum spot. Hoorah for terrible reads.

[Aj The Epic]

For skull, " Not everyone who votes your target is (town).

[Aj The Epic]

The team I have is Nick, skull, Mala, with an end of TF/Rach/Andrius.

So you think the entire scum team (outside of Rach?) has said they think mastin is scum?

Yes, I believe that it was way too easy a push for a lynch. Think about it, what easier excuse is there to lynch someone other than a 'scumslip'. Notice when I pointed it out, I didn't take any action on it (even though I had checked before posting). In fact, if you wanted to check, these people (the majority) had no suspicion of Mastin previously and now are making a case around the scumslip. This is a reason why they are indeed scum.

In fact, in what world does Mastin even decide to talk about the amount of scum day 1 as scum? How would that possibly benefit him? This question is the easiest way to point out that his comment wasn't a scum slip.

[Aj The Epic]

Aww, you don't like me wanting VI's dead and gone? You poor thing.

Confirmed town is still confirmed town. Don't make the town have to take care of it. That's for the scum to clear up. We hunt scum, not town. We vig unknowns, not verified town. Stop getting all butthurt about his claim. His play hasn't been a complete loss.

Show me a game where Mala used AtE so heavily and often as town. This isn't HER town game.

The point on zmuffin is something called 'confirmation bias'. He's not scum, get over it.

You can't even give a lean on Nick? Come on, he was part of the early controversy with TD, has posted throughout and every post he's made has stuck out to me like a sore thumb. I don't know how you've missed getting some read on him.

And I don't care if skull is on Mastin or not. She's obviously there as a sheep. There are scum on that wagon.

[Aj The Epic]

AJ is misrepping Skull by suggesting she is the "pushing scum" in regards to a question involving scum continuing to push the MastinSlip argument.

For skull, " Not everyone who votes your target is (town).

Corrected that typo pages ago.

[Aj The Epic]

There's some sorting to be done, TD. As I explained, what Mastin said can't be a scumslip so we've got to figure out who was pushing an easy lynch.

[Aj The Epic]

You accuse me of tunneling, but you are doing the exact same thing.

Admittedly, since you've come in, you've been my major focus. But at the same time, I've been developing multiple different reads. Up until you stopped arguing with FTL, he was your soul focus. Not major, soul. There's a difference. I haven't seen posts I expect from you as town. I personally thinking you're faking this.

Even the argument with FTL, none of it made me feel like you should've been particularly angry. Especially the one where you claimed made you want to replace out. For what he said, it was very passive compared to what he could've said for you having a bias on him for being banned. Engaging that topic here was wrong, as I think you pointed out later, and repercussions should've been more than expected. Varsoon's answer was very passive compared to some of the attacks I've heard from players who get angry and I don't quite see you getting that flustered from his post. I read it multiple times trying to find some personal attack that was over the line, but found nothing.

Apparently, however, you have enough support that unless I really wanted to ram this case down everyone's throat, I'm just wasting my time on you. I will be going for something more solid. But Mala, inwardly you have to know this isn't your town game.

[Aj The Epic]

I admit I had not really read much of the past 20 pages since page 36 I was busy trying to get a preliminary reads list out, got tired of peeps calling me useless

You can fix that by actually reading the posts and creating reads that don't look like you slapped them together in about 2 minutes. There is literally no depth of your reads here, and I see absolutely no effort from you.

for the love of everything.

SHE DOES THIS AS EITHER ALIGNMENT.

Everyone is calling her scum and pushing her for being useless, but her reads really don't develop until later.

Have you done a meta check on her?

>.>

^ Yeah you are just PL'ing her for being useless.

Honestly. He writes up a long case, well longer than needed for Rach's play at this point, and the only thing you get is "Useless"? Tell me about how Rach ISN'T your scumbuddy. Let's see if we got a correlation here. Rach first, you second? "This" is a very general statment. Has shallow reads on either alignment? Last game, I felt she was actively trying to troll the town. So there are obviously differences when I've simply ignored her because she's such a nonfactor.

Vote:Rach

Thezmon is town, by far. You 'grilling' him was so useless, even that was defense of a scumbuddy. So after we flip Rach, her scum flip incriminates you, and your scum flip verifies FTL as town. 2 scum and a second verified town.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm 99% sure you're town but I don't have the confidence in your Mala read. Sell me if you can!

If I haven't sold you yet, I'm probably not going to be able to get you to buy a case on her. I can quote it out of my iso, but the tl;dr version is this:

Mala came in using AtE and gut
When she got pressured, asked Mollie to get Jiffy off of her.
Said FTL was scum for carrying about appearance, yet she is constantly bothered with it, whether by posting where she'll be or trying to get votes moved.
Her reaction to Varsoon when she poked him for being banned was incredibly fake.
In fact, up until the time they stopped arguing, she had almost solely focused on FTL as her only suspect.
Pushed aside Thezmon's case (largely considered a prob-town) as just wanting to PL Rach. (Rach/Mala team going on here)
She has so many associative tells to go back over, it's not funny.

If Mala is scum: FTL is town, Rach is scum. Mastin also gains a great deal of more reason to be town, which links that whole wagon on him.

*I mean, Rach argues she uses meta, and then said I feel like town, not aj scum. Yet she's only ever played in one game with me, and most people can attest to the fact large games aren't generally indicative of my coney island games.

Thezmon, that last line is beautiful.

[Aj The Epic]

Really, out of that list, though, the only person I have any minor issues with is Bro, nick, and Venmar... Bro's a nullscum read, but nick is a scum read after we clear the other obvious scum out. Venmar had some bad posts recently that I'll quote here really quick.

Riiiiiiiiiiight also Mala is town #837

So, remember this post when Mala flips scum.

Dunnnnnn tell me what to do... i'm sleeeephy as fuck atm

My scumreads are mastin and ftl, maybe nick.

Andrius should be lynched sometime not today, maybe tomorrow. I think Mastin should go first.

Verify Mastin town (that associative tell I'm detailing through right now) and Venmar as scum there. I didn't see much in the way of case with Venmar.

We should be lynching Mastin

Same as above, simple reinforcement to my associative.

^ bad vote right now
^ also probably town

vote mastin

( rach i never wanted to lynch you in this game, just didn't think you were all that town until recently )

And the nail in the coffin for Venmar. Calls Rach town, says Andy bad vote 'right now', still wants the mastin case.

So as we go:
Venmar, Mala, Rach scum by association
FTL, Mastin, verified townies.

P-edit: Mollie: Trust us. Thezmon and I being on the same trail is a general definite good sign.

[Aj The Epic]

("That list" being Rach's reads that were put together by thezmon. I went and watched the Brown's replay inbetween starting and finishing).

[Aj The Epic]

Aj, care to join the wagon, and then we can go after Mala tomorrow?

I just switched a page or so ago. Ghostlin and I aren't enough votes to lynch Mala.

P-edit: Could say the same about the amount of information on your Mastin push. Justification that way is probably much worse.

[Aj The Epic]

@Trust Fund - Mastin scumread is mainly gut, but I don't think this is his town meta. He tries really hard as scum to appeal to others, which is basically all of what his 2 posts are, him complaining and trying really hard to look town. Both of his posts have like 0 content in them and don't hold much fruit, they're just him complaining/AtEing and not doing any kind of substantial scumhunting or being productive, which is what he said he would be in his 1st post (#240), but 228 posts later he comes with with his 2nd post (#448) with him just complaining and slapping on random reads.

Not to mention Mastin-town is way more productive and active, and generally is an active scumhunter. As scum he tends to be more appealing and passive, and tends to choose weird and obscure ( or unpopular ) votes in general.

I think i'll have to develop this read a bit further... it's still mostly gut despite of what I just said above. I'll make a vote somewhat shortly.

This is the only semblance of a case on Mastin I found in a quick one-over of your iso. Rach has a case, has tells, associations, and support. Mastin's 'slip' wagon was awful, dispersed as such, and I already expressed why that slip wasn't even nullscum or anything of that sort. So, yes, I do have grounds to say your case is any the bit more pathetic than the Rach case.

[Aj The Epic]

[2] Skullduggery (Ghostlin, Nachomamma8)

He's not even close to a lynch, Muffin...?

[Aj The Epic]

Mastin, who do you suggest we lynch first, then? Mala, since she has the strongest associative tells?

(I also was thinking of some of the nacho-relations that didn't make me feel too good about the slot, but I was thinking I was jumping at shadows to have him tied to Rach. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it).

Out of your reads, I think Andrius is wrong. It's Rach's counterwagon and Rach IS the connection to which everyone else (other than Nick, I really haven't found a place for him yet) fits. I really think today's lynch is rach or mala, then the other the next day.

P-edit: Mala, you tie to Rach, not nacho. If Nacho flipped scum, Rach still has to flip to incriminate you. And vice versa.

Mastin, walk me through Nick's connections and THEN we can talk about taking him first. Rach is my candidate right now, because if you're also seeing Nacho, she sticks at the center of this web.


...............Andrius
..................|
Mala-Rach-Nacho
...|.......|
...|---Venmar

And then Nick's all by himself. That's why I don't get why go to nick first. Sure the wagons help a bit, but I think that's a little more random than actual textual interaction.

[Aj The Epic]

Try again. That was awful

[Aj The Epic]

'If Skull is scum' is crazy weak for the theory we have here.

Thez, I know. I think Rach is the ideal lynch. All the major roots extend from her, and she hasn't proven anything useful. Mala will be incriminated, I get my lynch, and we then proceed to wreck the scum team.

[Aj The Epic]

I need to put this in to prod dodge. I'm incredibly exhausted and will need days to get back on my sleep schedule now. Or a day. I'm reading, just too tired to say something coherent and productive.

[Aj The Epic]

Okay, I'm back. Sleep schedule is now officially adjusted for college.

I know a player who drunk posts a lot on my off site and I've found it to be more scummy the more it's done. Almost an excuse to post often and get words in that you more or less can't take seriously. Because how do you type accurately when you're truly drunk? One, you shouldn't even be playing mafia at that point, but two, truly drunk people are rarely that coherent.

Unfortunately, it seems that my second choice has lost at least half the voice pushing that wagon. Mutt, calling the first 75 pages fluff is rather unintelligible. Realistically, it's anything but fluff. This game is getting out of focus, and we need to start drawing a consensus here now. Cases have become less prevalent, and the last few pages are mostly spam. Just take Mutley's and NS' recent interaction for example. We need to avoid this unintelligible garbage which isn't even close to scum hunting.

B&B, do you still believe Andrius is the right lynch, or are you willing to test the theory mastin and I have on Rach? I still think the Rach lynch gives us the most reward for the lowest risk. Or at least you have to assure me you'll look into Rachscum/Malascum tomorrow for me.

[Aj The Epic]

Venny, that vote really doesn't fly with me. There's way too much to drop a random vote now.

[Aj The Epic]

Any specific reason/post that caught your eye?

[Aj The Epic]

I've never been drunk, or drinking. Therefore, I can only tell you what I see from everyone else who acts like a fool.

I don't mind Nick as a vote, (especially after his last useless post) but if you're planning to pushing that wagon over Andrius, I'm going to assume you now see andrius as town, correct?

[Aj The Epic]

How far are you in reading, Saki? And if you aren't far, why are you spamming now?

[Aj The Epic]

That's not going to help our cause. I personally prefer thoughts over spam. The basis of spam is it is useless to begin with, hindering meaningful conversation.

[Aj The Epic]

Can someone explain what I should be looking for in Muttley and saki? Both come off as spammy non-content posters, so is there any 'correct' way to read this?

[Aj The Epic]

I think we found the two vig targets, at least. But christ, such a downgrade, especially for me with trying to garner some support for any of my scumspecs.

Really, at this point, I am completely prepared to get out of this day. I feel like we're losing focus and content. It would personally be better to get a lynch, get some information and then come back to this.

[Aj The Epic]

I personally have Mala as my first option. Rach was a compromise lynch with thez and Mastin until Mastin wanted nick. My scum reads are as they've been: Mala, Rach, LeanNick, Nacho... since Nacho is playing different from what I remember.

[Aj The Epic]

1) We're huge sucker for AtE
2) fery thinks that andy truly believes that nacho reading him town makes him town, which fery had a suspicion on.

You ought to not be a sucker for AtE then... Really, I have no idea why someone would seriously go "Let's play mafia" while drunk.

Zmuffin: Everything is a tell. Every post is a tell. Out of millions of players, there are only so many playstyles and few differences between that. It is undeniable that tells exist and that's the sole reason meta is so strong. Remember, tells are just advanced specific theories for a certain individual or type of player. Ergo, tells are legitimate.

I'm starting full time college here. I WILL be around, just not so often... never mind, you probably won't notice an activity difference.

[Aj The Epic]

Can we please just end this day? My ability to find something new to post good solid content is completely exhausted right now. I think we're also close to pushing into the deadline (Vote count isn't up yet).

[Aj The Epic]

I really hope someone kills Saki, our resident useless player. The ideology that you 'must be the hammer' is incredibly stupid. It feels like you want your ego stroked a bit by being the hammer and by doing so, you hinder the town's process.

Vote:Andrius

Fuck it. B&B are there, Notscience is there, as well FTL and trust fund. Maybe I'm missing something, but we don't have a lot of choice anymore.

This is, with TD's vote, l-3?

[Aj The Epic]

And there goes half my reason for helping an Andy lynch right over to Rach.

VOTE: Rach

If I may, though, what caused the change of heart?

[Aj The Epic]

I'll take my town leader hat now pls.

Vote: mastin

I'm going to have to remove that hat for a terribad vote. Instead, have this one:

It makes perfect sense. Andi thought Mala was dead. In actuality Sound is dead. The scum team last night considered offing mala, before switching to sound. Andi forgot they had switched their NK. Simple and easy as pie.

No, it doesn't because Mala is scum. Ergo, this in no way makes sense about Andrius.

nah, mala was lynch fodder, scum would not have nked her.

Please, please, please don't chalk her up to lynch fodder. She's scum, totally and completely. I think we've seen that my case is gaining more and more weight with Rach's own flip.

And it didn't strike you as odd that I was voting for the person you thought was dead?

Also holy fuck I'm going to be the AJ of this game. Remember, when I flip town to ACTUALLY LOOK AT MY READS BECAUSE HOLY FUCK AJ'S READS WERE GOOD LAST TIME AND I WAS SO PLEASED WHEN EVERYONE IGNORED THEM.

Most of that was gut because I had become so tired of getting tied to 2 there. TD, I was sure was scum but I'm not even sure I stayed course with that read to the end.

Mala or Bro should be the lynch

today

.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I prefer Mala first. And then we can check Nacho, or anyone I tagged earlier in connection with Rach. And if we're missing really bad (trust me, we won't... I got this) we can lynch Bro as an 'out of options' lynch. But not until then.

Naw still want Mala's head on a platter. Nhammen's first post pinged and Mala's done jack to alleviate that since then.

oh was this why you were sucking up to aj?

Really, there's no convincing needing to be done to get me to want to lynch Mala.

mala plz vote bro

VOTE: bro

Hence, we see beyond any reasonable doubt you are scum. Easy to get you to vote onto a counterwagon, eh?

VOTE: Malakittens

I don't even mind Sakitown gone. I knew Thez's slot was town, it was really obvious. Unfortunately, Saki was completely destroying that slot and was generally unhelpful. Therefore, I think Muttley is right in his shot.

[Aj The Epic]

And so now with the reaction test by TF, what do you think?

[Aj The Epic]

so tf, scum would not have been able to nightkill at all?

It strips my target of any and all powers so long as they're scum. So basically, if bro was scum, he'd lose any night role AND the ability to preform the factional kill.

Okay? So if he was vanilla AND lost the power to kill.. Why would he admit he lost the power to kill? He wouldn't.

Go look at how my lie played out. I worded it to suggest it would confirm him as town that he had something changed to vanilla. In other words, I was softing that the vanilla play would only work on town when it actually only works on scum.

And i highly doubt bro has read paradox prime. (And that fake cop claim won town the game)

I was watching it and I noticed flaws in it that a smart player would catch. Here's the fallacy:

Town will claim nothing happened (this is good)
But you softed HC that SOMETHING should happen. Not WHAT. Or flavor. Therefore, it's SAFER for scum to say nothing happened.
Plus, it's fairly obvious it was a bluff. You're pulling for one answer while the true one is the other way, but you gave him your version of the correct answer on a line to 'help him'.

Most people can see from these pieces how it doesn't work. I'm not saying it was irrelevant here (I think Bro did answer honestly and didn't notice the logic weak point) but it might've been used against you had you based a read on this.

[Aj The Epic]

so i'm not lynching the following today: andrius, bnb, desperado, ftl, ghostlin, mac, mastin, nacho, TD

and i apparently can't lynch the following because they claimed vig or some bullshit actions last night which don't really confirm them but people are giving them a free pass anyway: bro, mutley, trust fund

and so i'm left with: aj, mala, nick, venmar

and anyone else i may have left out

I swapped when Mastin and Thez said they wanted Rach first. If you read through my iso and perhaps did some looking instead of relying on vote counts, you'd notice two things: No one wanted Mala lynched, and I didn't change to Rach until Mastin and Thezmon made a case. When Mala tied herself to Rach by calling Thezmon's case bad, I then voted Rach saying that I could prove Mala was scum if Rach flipped scum. Therefore, by Rach flipping scum, I've only advanced my own case on Mala.

[Aj The Epic]

not what I was looking for, but we can talk when you're not mad.

if you think it is anger I feel then you don't know me as well as I thought you did.

look at what he is doing. he is going after us for derailing the rach lynch. we went after nick cos we were scum reading him and we still are. he is to trying imply that nick must be town for some weird reason when it is not unusual to have 2 competing wagons on scum on d1. <---- that he isn't even entertaining this demonstrates that his premise is agenda driven and not scum hunting.

I am somewhat scum reading mala for a similar reason. I think nick, mala and bro might all be scum.

As I said earlier to Mastin, so far I'm looking for scum who have dropped a great deal of association tells. Unfortunately, I don't believe Nick has really dropped any which makes him different from the rest of everyone else who I'm looking at. I have Nick as a scum lean, someone to invest a lot of time later when I've gotten rid of Mala. But bro, on the other hand, I don't see any reason to lynch him other than he's bothering you for all the wrong reasons.

To be perfectly honest, when Mala flips scum, I think I'd almost prefer to look at Venmar more. I read his iso yesterday and I believe he had some comments about Mala and Rach that made me grind my teeth a bit. If you help me lynch Mala, however, I'll definitely strongly consider going after Nick. Unfortunately, Mala got away from me the last time I knew she was scum and I'm not willing to let her try to change my read on her.


P-edit:

1.Mastin didn't make a case, but we had a talk about association. Yes, he's the one who voiced a thought I had been sitting on (as I showed later) that Nacho had some interesting thoughts about Rach. Thezmon, however, made a solid case that was more important to me in Mala's reaction to it. I never said it was fantastically worded and original, but Mala dismissed it completely saying we were out to policy lynch Rach. This is more than enough to convince me she's protecting her scumbuddy.

2. And you have a problem with this line of logic? I've yet to see anyone dispute it.

[Aj The Epic]

Question: Why do you think mala would be so blatant in protecting deadweight that was bound to be lynched at some point anyway, if not on D1?

Because I think Mala felt that I'd eventually get her lynch and the team might've considered her the deadweight. Therefore, if she could protect a buddy and just stall out to have an andrius lynch go through, she might be able to protect Rach from being pressured on day 2 calling both wagons town. At the time, the Rach wagon was more or less composed of people the hydras (Aka generally town leaders) considered null to lean town while Andrius had most of the standard cast of characters on it. There was a strong chance to save Rach from being lynched and in fact, she almost got it until BnB switched their vote back.

Let me ask you: Had Andrius flipped (which is a flip that is almost certain to be town now), would you go back to Rach and immediately try to lynch her?

But show me such a blatant dismissal of a case where someone looks at it and goes "So you're policy lynching Rach?". This is so key in why I see buddying there. "Ignoring" isn't even the right word at that point. People ignore cases by simply not responding or acting on it. This is the simple truth of what happens to people who right of longer posts. But if you think you can show me a dismissal that's anywhere near as bad as the one Mala had, I'd be more than happy to look into that person's iso/interactions thus far.

[Aj The Epic]

But show me such a blatant dismissal of a case where someone looks at it and goes "So you're policy lynching Rach?"

EVERY
FUCKING
PERSON
NOT
ON
THE
RM
WAGON
DID
THIS

Specific instances help a bit.

Obviously I shifted my vote to andrius when there was no help. We had about 15 hours to deadline max and I was going to bed soon. There wasn't much time for me to make a final decision.

As for mala not feeling pressure, she was generally yelling at me for pressuring her. I doubt she figured I alone could do it (I can't, not enough votes), but I will get her lynched. Maybe she figured this. Have you seen Mala play as mafia before to know if she defends her scum buddies or not?

[Aj The Epic]

Mala's responses to the constant pressure she's been under fell town.

the push on her made her look town because of the way some of the people were pushing it, honestly i think it was just luck she flipped scum.

This.

Well it's pretty inevitable that I'm the lynch for today. So might just get it over with now than later

Yeah. Definitely not responding well. She basically just tried to buddy up to Venmar.

[Aj The Epic]

6 of those quotes were notscience. Can't do much there. He's town, regardless of his views.
BnB didn't dismiss the case. They stated Rach to be lynchbait (as they've done with mala, which is completely wrong: She's scum)
FTL has some odd stance. Post one is a dismissal. Post two is his view on Andrius on the wagon (from what I've gathered) and three demonstrates the difference between his and MS' views. However, in that same post, he did run over everyone's content and some of the cases (I specifically remember Thez's) were talked about and made points of.
Venmar, however, in that one post, did completely dismiss it. But in reflection of Mastin's last post... Put simply, I REALLY want Mala first.

BnB (Mollie, actually): Mastin's town this game. You're going to have to do more than slap down a vote to start something on him.

Mala, that post doesn't feel fake or anything. Basically everyone besides TD seems to have BnB as some degree of a town read, so stop trying to buddy up to players. The last two posts have tried exactly that.

[Aj The Epic]

...............Andrius
..................|

Mala

-

Rach

-Nacho
...|.......|
...|---Venmar

And then Nick's all by himself. That's why I don't get why go to nick first. Sure the wagons help a bit, but I think that's a little more random than actual textual interaction.

This is why. Unless I get confirmation that we WILL lynch Mala, short of a verifiable cop claim, I want her lynched before I even think of focusing on Nick.

[Aj The Epic]

zMuffinMan, Desperado, Nachomamma8, Ghostlin, BeautyAndTheBeast, Aj The Epic, Sound of Silence, Andrius, Trust Fund, Saki, BROseidon
possible alternatives are AJ and Ghostlin but those sound like some shit alternatives.

What is this supposed to be again?

Moljiffy, I'd love to help, but I know what happens as soon as I stop posting about Mala. I can't get enough momentum on her wagon to begin with. If you look, she's slowly trying to buddy with players to try and get enough support that she WON'T get lynched. I don't see many others playing the buddy game right now. I can't let caught scum go. It's not happening. At this point, it isn't even about people not seeing a case against her, they're ignoring it. Same as Rach, as Desp has shown, but my case has gone ignored for a full day without more than a few people voicing their opinions on her being scummy or null. You know what she's doing right now: She's setting me up to die, and have enough people buddied to her that there can't be enough support for her lynch in later days. Nick simply ISN'T A THREAT. He's almost less effective than hypothetical Bro-scum would be, so help me take out the largest obvscum threat and I will lynch Nick WITHOUT HESITATION. But not until Mala dies.

[Aj The Epic]

rach wagon.

Then I'll assume you're saying Ghostlin and I are possible bussers. That's fairly lousy given the theories I've put around Rach's lynch solely being to advance my malakitten's case.

@Jiffy: Fine. We go your way today.

VOTE: Nick

But you better be more than ready to help me take Mala out in the upcoming days.

[Aj The Epic]

Remember, a lot of us had Nick as a secondary or tertiary scum read. I think I mentioned yesterday in that post I drew the quick little connection chart up that he was a suspect about four back because I couldn't piece a place for him. He's certainly been scummy at a glance and even at an iso, but nick generally is closer to TD and even Bro through his whole iso, which is a bit off from my Mala:Rach scum duo with possibilities from Nacho. And since I'm reading TD as town and Bro as somewhere at a town lean, the best that could be is buddying. Yet they aren't the smartest to buddy with as TD and Bro have taken a goodly amount of heat throughout the whole day.

[Aj The Epic]

Muffin, 2993 was my explanation to why the nick wagon had died out in favor of Andrius/Rach wagons. As I've said, Nick isn't my first or second choice, but I am pretty certain BnB is town, so I'm fine with helping them if they help me. As I stated, my theory is Rach:Mala, with an outside chance of Nacho. But throughout the last two days, some of the confirmed town have had had issues with Nick (and I had issues at the begining of D1 up until Mala joined). Between Mastin, Thez, BnB and notscience, there are multiple people who I know or trust to be town that were on his case and so I'm willing to have a lynch on Nick. So no, I'm not waffling. I'm here to get nick lynched, even if he isn't my first or second choice, because again, it advances my own goal to have support to get Mala lynched.

Do I think Nick is scum? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. His posting hasn't been fantastic (As I will expand upon seeing as you so kindly asked) but it would be a little bit of a curve ball to my own thinking if he turned up scum. Throughout, as I've stated, his only consistent interactions with town reads are Bro and TD, both of which I have at varying degrees of town.

So after quoting through his iso, I found one post on top of what I saw that I really didn't like before (it's the last one in this, and I believe it's out of order so I can address it a bit more)

Spoiler:

would it help if I told you we have a hydra together that we regularly use? if he starts to look scummy to me you will be the first to know.

Flip town and we'll talk. Until then, I'll trust my own reads over unconfs', no matter how good you think you are at reading him.

First off, on policy I don't like this. He's basically said he won't work well with others no matter what, and won't consider their opinions until they're dead. It may be a way of completely disregarding BnB or it could be to get Mollie so irritated, she's make a mistep and look bad for it. Either or, it's bad and comments like this just shouldn't exist in a game that requires considering other people's opinion.

NickTheName, am I correct that you don't have a completed scum game at MS? Have you played a scum game on another site?

nometa4you

Another post of nick trying to be generally unhelpful, although this one is slightly more telling if he has a noticeable difference in town/scum meta. When Mollie mentions she has meta on Nick, Nick completely blows her off again.

I want to work with you and him. I have Malakittens as scum, and obviously nickthename as scum, both in Majiffy's scum-pile, but I'm going to have difficulty working with you and him if he's calling me scum.

"I'm buddying you really hard, can I be town now?" Also, I don't like the implication that you won't be able to work with them unless they post reading you as town.

[5] Faster Than Light (thezmon221,

Malakittens

, Skullduggery, TiphaineDeath,

nickthename

)

Bad wagon is bad and incredibly scumdriven.

[4] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Faster Than Light)

Replacement wagon is bad and the best names on there are FtL (a minor townread) and MuffinMan (also minor townread), which is

generally a

very bad sign

.

[3] nickthename (Aj The Epic, mastin2, notscience)

Epic wagon is epic. Made up of a player who everyone (be it via play or meta) is calling town and with TWO conftown backing it.
The Malakittens wagon is a decent alternative, though.

You slip in saying that you're conf-town and comment on the mala wagon without looking at the votes on it, which I'd like you to do.

(See. This is me lying. This is me showing a bit more confidence, even though I'm actually having less and less confidence. I told you it'd be closer to the me you're used to, despite it being a lie. )

So you're lying that you're confident while pushing wagons? Dunno how people don't think this is obv scum.
VOTE: Mastin

1st quote section: That's not even close to what Mastin was doing. Nick's basically misrepped Mastin here. The second part of that sentence is ironic giving the fact he flat out refused to be helpful to SoS or BnB.
2nd part is irrelevant besides calling oneself conf-town isn't a slip.
3rd part is what makes this. He constantly bugs Mastin about how mastin is faking confidence and therefore is lying. Ergo, nick suggests, LaL. Confidence is something that can be faked and not be indicative at all to anything. I mean, mastin's already told us that he's having a bit of issues getting into the game here, and personally, his confidence is a lot better than someone just reading 'null this, null that, null all the things'.

Regardless, you can't lynch based on lying about confidence. It's stupid.

@1381
Wow, you managed to make an entire reads list without saying or committing to anything. Scummy, although I don't know the meta, maybe this is par for the course. I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though, but if she keeps sitting on the fence day 2 i'll most certainly want to lynch her then.

We should be lynching Mastin

This.

Alright. This is part of the two-post important special for Nick and the main foundation of anything I have for him. First, we see he DISLIKES Rach's read list (which, fyi, is worse than anything Mastin put up this game), but denies that Rach is a good d1 lynch, saying they should be lynching mastin (off of wagon support formed from that '5 scum' comment mastin had). But,

I don't understand the Andrius case and don't like this idea of lynching Rach today. That said, I'd prefer Rach to nothing, so I guess I'll vote her, unless something convinces me Andrius is scum, which is actually possible, since I perhaps if someone actually explains that case I'll understand it.

I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though

Why not?

Rach hasn't provided much content at all today, her reads sit on the fence so hard it's ver difficult to tell what she thinks of anyone. However, she has promised better reads and commentary day 2.

I agree that her behavior today has been scummy,

but hear me out.

Assume for the sake of argument that she doesn't provide any useful content during the rest of Day 1, which I think is a fairly passable assumption considering her current behavior.
During day 2, if she still fails to provide any useful content, we lynch her.
If she does provide useful content day 2, we should be able to use that content to get a more accurate read on her. If we decide she's town, we avoid a mislynch. If scum, we still lynch her, but now we have her better reads to use against her partners.

---

It's plainly obvious to me that a mac lynch isn't going to happen, so i'm in favor of a mastin lynch.

His reads look very artificial

, mimicking popular town ideas without providing any decent reasons, and his posts are largely useless and fluffy, either in the form of talking about how towny he is, talking about

how he has secret reads he won't tell us

, or talking about how he's lying about how confident he is. This comes accross to me as scum trying to look engaged while lacking any real scumhunting.

As to Andy, I need to Iso him again, if anyone could post a non-meta based case against him, that would be nice.

Bad all around. First, he suggests leaving a 'scummy player' around to get a better read on her. He suggests multiple times he sees her as scummy, but doesn't want her dead day 1. Now with her flip, I can almost tie Nick to Rach just for this. He's protecting a buddy. More than that, he's giving her a chance at a free pass in his mind, in favor of a mastin lynch which is made worse by his three expressed reasons.

1: Artificial reads. This really isn't true. Mastin had been giving and re-explaining reads all day. Plus, as mentioned by me (and Nick!) Rach's reads are awful. Terrible amounts of coaching would've gone on in the scum qt had Rach lived.
2: Lying about confidence. Come on, I explained this: You don't employ LaL for this.
3. Looking engaged, no scum hunting: Mastin was the first to voice that he thought Nacho/Rach could be a thing. He admitted that he was having trouble with this game at the begining and Nick has unfairly tried to pin this as an issue when, guess what, Rach had the same issue without ever trying to fix it. This post willingly admits that Nick has a connection to Rach.

[Aj The Epic]

ok, that's great. but so far no one on the nick wagon has really

presented

a case. and i've been talking about the things i think make him likely town.

so what's your fucking point?

this is the exact same fucking shit that happened d1. i talk about reasons i think x. people say no but don't give good reasons why. then it's apparently my fault for not convincing people when i can't even talk about their reasons.

Oh come the fuck on, man! What was my last post to you? (Apparently no one read it because Nick didn't even bother to acknowledge I made a post about him)

[Aj The Epic]

This was supposed to be posted last night to muffin's posts to me. Unfortunately, internet here blows and gave out.


Yes, but does my personal opinion in invalidate my personal findings? I stated at the end that the Rach thing was weird: His mastin/rach reasons were very similar, but the obvious worse of the two players at that point was Rach so his willingness to keep her around while lynching mastin is very, very wrong to me.

I've got too slow an internet right now to actually quote your wall that I got in a pre-edit (down in Sandusky off a short range hotel serve easily 200 meters away) but I want to address some (if not all at some point) now. So I'm just going to c/p them into quote code. They're all yours below, Muffin.

Spoiler:

The conversation was about whether mac is scum or not. bnb responded to TD saying that she could read mac because they were in a hydra and when she thought mac was scum she'd say so. nick responded back saying that he trusted his own reads (a mac scum read) over the reads of someone who he doesn't know is town.

Alone, I admit that this is weak. Alone. But when he did so again, and it seemed to be targeted specifically at Mollie, I was wondering if it wasn't a subtle attempt at discrediting a hydra early on. From the games I've been in, BNB is a hard hydra to get lynched. (Actually, mollie in hydras in general are tough to lynch)

This is an example of where I think you're completely misreading or ignoring the tone of the posts. The snarky attitude probably has a lot more to do with playstyle and nothing to do with alignment.

I get the idea of personality::meta style, but as I stated, I felt he might've been trying to protect his own meta. Generally, people are fairly free about giving meta. Especially to players like SoS who made it sound like meta was their big play style. Again, though, this post was more important to me in the fact that he was reacting particularly sarcastic towards a player who can be fairly emotional.

Well, he wasn't suggesting LaL. He did have a problem with how mastin was feigning confidence in his reads while admitting he wasn't confident in his read.

He basically saw mastin say "I'm going to lie about my confidence" and attacked Mastin for lying.

I understood his reasoning for this. As he explained in 1504, RM may have been acting scummy but it was a lynch based on little information and even if she flipped scum, there would be very few interaction tells. While I disagree with him, I can see where he's coming from, and I don't think this opinion is alignment indicative.

I can't check, but I'm fairly certain my post about Rach and her connections was before this post. I thought Rach had plenty of connections, fairly obvious ones at that.

... For someone that talks about nick misrepresenting mastin, I find it ironic that you took a post from the end of the day where it was obvious mastin wasn't going to be lynched, and pretended this is some sort of proof that nick contradicted himself or something.

I was referring to the fact that mastin took most of his pressure after making that comment. It's also when his wagon grew the most. But Nick didn't move off to support a wagon that had more chance of going through, even to the end. Even when he gave a heads up that he wasn't going to be on until a few hours before the deadline. So... why is he sticking off a wagon that he claimed he thought the slot was scummy?
(Although, you do kind of address this yourself here:)

I'm also currently thinking this isn't the case because, like venmar, there were more viable counterwagons than mastin and he never really took the opportunity to jump on any of them.

Also, mastin's reads did look artificial, and anyone who thinks this isn't the case has something wrong with them. His reads were all based on interaction, not on the content people were posting.

Isn't 90% of this game interaction? Like, I believe my primary case on mala was her content, but I started nailing her for her interactions to others (mainly rach). I know what you mean, Mastin didn't start particularly strong, but I personally have enjoyed his line of thinking and considered Thezmon and Mastin my biggest help yesterday in formulating an idea of the scum team. (His reads on scum today are also relatively close to my idea)

But, what's your current read on Mastin then? You've obviously expressed difficulties with communicating to him, but I'm not sure I remember any specific read you have for him.

[Aj The Epic]

Oh hell. Bork, can you change that spoiler to the proper type?

[Aj The Epic]

i dunno. i read over mala's iso and saw some things that made me think scum and other things that made me think town. at this point in time with my vote on bro going nowhere, i'm considering voting mala, but i don't really feel all that strongly about her, and would really only be doing it because i don't like the other major wagon today.

I still hold that the reaction didn't even feel right (you can find my post on it) and that she was more or less in the wrong for inciting that in the first place and should've prepared for the repercussions that would most assuredly come for saying what she did to ftl. I would much prefer Mala over nick, but literally no one has done ANYTHING to convince me I'd have any support lynching Mala (besides Bro today and Ghostlin yesterday). And three people can't lynch Mala.

[Aj The Epic]

Funny. That's not what you said about Rach...

+5

[Aj The Epic]

Absolutely bizarre that I would have a different response to a different situation. Strangest damn thing.

Not taking away from the fact that Mala is scum, but... You know, you employed this 'let's wait until day 2' thing and Rach goes and flips scum.

[Aj The Epic]

Basically, I can't score these dunks alone, Mala.
I need help from whoever wants to be on my side.
I'm drafting some plays, scoping out players, figuring out who stands where and playing around it so I can put this ball through the hoop.
But I need help.
I'm just Charles Barkley, and I need all of the Rockets to blast off with me, you dig?

-V

Seriously, I think you are the only player in this game who could make me feel uncomfortable about my Mala read. (That, and nick is going complete survivalist here...) Literally shit-all but stirring the pot the wrong way. You realize that if nick flips scum, you've just damned yourself, correct? Personally, I was trying to help get some cooperation going between the majority of my town reads by actually compromising on someone (since I think BnB more or less did compromise yesterday to help Mastin/Thez/desp/other theories on Rach. But all I could think when I read your idea was just how incredibly stupid it sounded. I can't very well understand the extent of all the stupid playing a gambit with someone's lynch to prove OTHER PEOPLE just by having them vote. Gambits are supposed to have a chance to succeed, you know.

[Aj The Epic]

Look. Post 3337 had SOME logic, but there are some HUGE deficiencies with it. Let me spoiler and go over. I'll be using

Red bold

for the dissection.

Spoiler:

You know, I'm beating around the bush, let me just get long winded and pull this whole thing out for you:


Rach, at the time of the Lynch, was the following:
zMuffinMan, Desperado, Nachomamma8, Ghostlin, BeautyAndTheBeast, Aj The Epic, Sound of Silence, Andrius, Trust Fund, Saki, BROseidon

The people who gave up wagons to change to the Rach Wagon (TRR=town read rach. SRR=scum read rach) were:
BROseidon (TRR), Saki (TRR), Trust Fund (TRR), Andrius (SRR), AJ the Epic (SRR), BeautyandtheBeast (TRR), Ghostlin (SRR), Sound of Silence (TRR)

Basically, only zMuffinMan, Desperado, and Nachomamma8 were consistently SRR for all of D1.

Now, there's two possible scenarios here.
Either Rach's wagon was entirely town (So far, true, as Saki and Sound of Silence were both town)
OR
Rach had scum bussing her.

Here's my first issue. What you are saying is on a CB^2 (case by case basis). Not ALL scum are on this, not all are off (although both do become possibilities). Therefore, drawing conclusions as you do later that all scum are consistent/inconsistent as a trend for the team is unfortunately flawed from the getgo.

Now, Rach likely did have scum bussing her.
Which is interesting, given that our two confirmed town were reading her as TOWN before putting a vote on her.
So, does that mean everyone reading her as scum (Ghostlin, Andy, B&B) who swapped a vote to her to make the lynch happen are scum? Maybe.

(But probably not...? Just look at who you've named. But as an inconclusive line of evidence, you're almost bringing up Ghostlin's point about questions =/= facts. Same goes for the next line, but I would, off hand, go player by player again. Out of these, each had different patterns through, which may be what you're getting at, but to group zmuffin, desp, and nacho in by scum read and initial push is issumatic due to nacho not even sticking wagon the whole time.)

What significance is there behind zMuffin, Desperado, and Nacho pushing hard for a Rach lynch right away?


Let's move to the Nick wagon and Mala wagon.

Mastin and BnB both made posts about Nick and the people who were voicing support but not backing it. Sound familiar?
Let's dig in. I've changed things to the SRN/TRN to echo my earlier antonyms.

Mastin's List:
Andrius (SRN)
Venmar
nickthename (TRN)
BeautyAndTheBeast (SRN)
Nachomamma8 (SRN)
Desperado
notscience (SRN)
zMuffinMan (SRN)
Faster than Light (SRN)
Mutleyddmc
Aj the Epic (SRN)
TiphaineDeath (TRN)
Trust Fund

Haven't posted since my post about the nick wagon ending the day:
BROseidon (SRN)
Ghostlin
Mac
Malakittens


BnB's List (of people SRN):
BRO, TF, Mastin, Ghostlin, zMuffin, AJ, Andy, Nacho.

Out of these people, the ones who were SRN but didn't budge till later on the Rach wagon are:

(Here, you're saying, have a scum read on nick, but were late(er) to the Rach wagon? Don't let the final vote count fool you. I was on way earlier than my vote's on in the train, in the last few hours, I switched to andrius to help get a lynch. I can't speak for the other two, but unless I'm missing something, this again is cb^2)

Ghostlin, AJ, Andrius.

But that represents logical progression of gameplay, which merits these people town points, because if they're scum for playing the same way, then it's a double bus, which is against scum wincon, really. No, let's look at the people who were DEFIANTLY TRN or SRN on Rach, but are the opposite with this Nick Wagon (flimsy/has a read but isn't defiant about it):

zMuffin, Nacho, BROseidon, Trust Fund

Special note is that Desperado was very SRN on Rach all of D1 and has been very TRN on Nick all of D2, while B&B is the opposite (was defiant TNR on Rach, is defiant SRN on Nick).

zMuffin, Nacho, Trustfund, and BROseidon are people that are really suspicious to me, so this feels like it's inquiry in the right direction.

NOW! Let's look at Nick's list for how people stand on the Mala Wagon~

SRM and DEFIANT:
Ghostlin, NicktheName.

This again is wrong. As of right now, I believe I am the ONLY one who has championed multiple posts to garnering Mala wagon support, having one of 2 or 3 cases against her. I'm not sure your definition of defiant, but Nick has been on Mala for survivalist (And I am interested to see how much of his case mirrors mine). Ghostlin has been very defiant on it, and I might even say Bro has been an advocate. Nothing defiant (started more or less today) but still there. Mastin rings as another person who has been a supporter or Mala scum and consistently reads her as scum/has voted her before today. This 'defiant' list is a bit flawed.

SRM but FLIMSY:
Mac,
Mastin,
B&B,
BRO,
NS,
AJ.

SRM but AWKWARD:
zMuffin,
Mutley,
TF,
Andy.

The overlap between the three lists are:

BRO, TF, zMuffin
Nacho's all over the place.
Desperado is defiantly TRM, too, for the record. B&B had some hiccups in TRM, but that's ultimately where it is.


Basically, what this boils down to is that either there's scum CONSISTENTLY playing the game or there's scum INCONSISTENTLY playing the game.

And here's my issue. The whole argument lies on the above and directly below holding PERFECTLY true. But, cb^2. For example, Venmar and I recently had a scum game together (1442 HoC mafia) where we shared very few reads throughout the whole game. Our progression of reads held so little in common that realistically, there wasn't any associative tells until we had some hiccups in the end two lylos (He was way more secure and consistent in reads while mine generally had a little less consistency (Was all over DDDP, Pasche, Fuzdun and Toog the whole game). The point is: A scum team isn't going to share consistency or inconsistency on reads. Individually? Yes. If you're looking for specific tells, where one scum drops back on a read on a buddy to try and stop a wagon, yes. But TOWN doesn't always have perfect consistency either (hence one of the first ways to set up mislynches as scum is to attack inconsistent play whether in reads or otherwise. Scum tactic 101.

If Nick is Scum, this makes Mala town and means that scum is CONSISTENT in their play.
If Mala is Scum, this makes Nick town and means that scum is INCONSISTENT in their play.
Of course, they could both be scum, which would speak towards CONSISTENCY, which is why I have to play the gambit that I am playing.

It means specific players (Nick, here) is consistent. Not alignment indicative, as stated above, unless he was hard town reading Mala previously.

Once we know this, it'll be easier for us (or, at least, me) to find scum, because I can look for a group of inconsistent/consistent players and really ISOLATE there.
CONSISTENT PLAYERS: Desperado, Ghostlin, Aj, Andrius, B&B, etc
INCONSISTENT PLAYERS: Rach Marie, Nacho, zMuffin, BROseidon, Trust Fund, etc

The great thing is that NICK and MALA represent each camp as well, with Nick being consistent and Mala being inconsistent, imo.

So, yeah, thoughts?
Am I just crazy and seeing things on a totally different level than everyone else?

I would say in math, we'd call this "No correlation"... Where does tunneling fall here? And then are you accurate about every mentioned player? For example, BnB with Andrius/Rach yesterday. And since BnB is basically conftown at this point, we can realistically again apply no correlation to consistency here. (You could also add inconsistency of hydra heads)

When people started posting all those Scum-reading-but-not-voting posts, I did a double take, and reallly mulled over all this stuff, and that's how I came up with my gambit, which'll be a lynch on an inconsistent player that is anti-Nick (Mala, Mac, etc) with PHASE 2 shit that'll give us Nick and Nacho's alignments.

God, I'm so awesome.

-V

[Aj The Epic]

FTL: Your gambit is not going to work better than scum hunting. I think I know what you're doing here, and it's stupid regardless of flip outcomes because the logic is bad. (of course you never responded to me when I spoilered and when through your reasoning post). Secondly, Nick keeps going "I'll get that case up later" constantly. I wrote a mala case in probably 10 minutes yesterday, it was that easy. You can get just about ANY post and go with it. Why is it taking him so damn long?

Mala dies tomorrow. End of story. We've decided to lynch Nick today on BnB's judgment and they've promised to at least look at mala tomorrow (when I'll write up an up-to-date case on her IN A TIMELY FASHION) and then we'll be clear of possibly two scum. Because you know what? Your gambit is already set to clear Nick. You want so badly to clear him that you've chosen the most likely scum candidate and said "Nick's allignment is the opposite BECAUSE one is consistent and one is not and the scum team OBVIOUSLY follows one of these trends".

So look: No one wants to halt the current proceedings of actually scumhunting to go along with your three-piece gambit that involves lynching someone to clear someone else. That's not how gambits are employed, nor do you basically televise the whole gambit before starting it... Nor do you announce that you're pulling a gambit. There is an art to it, and you've yet to master it. Your idea seems so farfetched and complicated (in a bad way, not complex) that it's basically destined to fail by one overlooked issue.

You know the last time I saw a large gambit? Auntie Jemina pulled on in a game early, calling herself the town role blocker when under pressure and getting a mass claim day 1. She had a really large idea about how to overlap roles well and avoid lynching the PRs. Docs stayed unclaimed and such but you know what? Scum just picked off power roles, as planned. Duh. Jemina flipped scum in the endgame and everyone felt stupid for it. There was no way it ever would've worked in town's favor, and I voiced that, but hey. Complicated long term gambits WILL FAIL because eventually scum will know what's going on and pass through with ease. Imagine if Nacho and Nick are opposite alignments: The scum would know which is town and if he was really stuck, he'd just base his reactions off the town player, changing it slightly to be believable.

[Aj The Epic]

Secondly, Nick keeps going "I'll get that case up later" constantly. I wrote a mala case in probably 10 minutes yesterday, it was that easy. You can get just about ANY post and go with it. Why is it taking him so damn long?

Because school just started and i'm fucking busy, what exactly would I get out of delaying it?

This. Feels like AJ's talking out of his ass and trying to accuse you of stalling. However, wouldn't the more effective stalling method be to post a good case against a counterwagon?

A 'good case' would no longer be stalling. How can you possibly even accuse my of not knowing what I'm talking about when as to date, I'm one of only two people who have written up a case again Mala and Nick, and one of only three to produce a case on Mala for scum. I didn't even SAY he was stalling. I was suggesting he was having an incredible amount of difficulty putting together reasons that Mala is scum. He's fitting a case to his read which has been incredibly inconsistent on Mala to begin with. Ergo, HE DOESN'T FEEL MALA IS SCUM.

2- I've reiterated, even in the post you reference as bad logic, that they could both be scum. The point is, my alignment doesn't fucking CLEAR anyone. It gives a truthful alignment tell. I'd rather get information on 3 players instead of haphazardly risk a mislynch on two in a row. Blindly fumble around and lynch Mala regardless of evidence D3? Sounds real fuckin' town, AJ. Even as a contingency plan, that's not going to give us the info we could mine out of this situation.

Blindly fumbling? Come on, dude! I've spent tons of times reiterating WHY mala is scum. I'll do so tomorrow as well, but besides Mastin, I trust the Nick wagon as a whole more than the Mala wagon.

(And your alignment isn't really apart of this gambit in theory. Obviously, scum has ulterior motive, but the alignment of the gambiter shouldn't matter.) I was speaking more towards correlating playstyle to alignment having no real connection. Take, for example, if notscience and SoS were scum (confirmed town this game for better example). Does Notscience's scum play resemble gif's scum play? No, not at all. (In fact, I have a game where both of them were scum to prove this). So, can I make a correlation that if ns flips scum, this means that this playstyle (probs inconsistent, short spam posting) is scum this game and Gif/sos posting (case posting, still fairly often, more consistent) is NOT scum? This is the fundamental issue I have with your case: No, it does not and you'd lose the game assuming that. Equally, does this mean here that Mutley and ns are both scum in that game because their post styles are similar? No, because scum aren't determined by style.

3- If you think, in some bizarre world, that everyone sheeping MY OWN POINTS and B&B's against Nick is actually scum hunting, you need to get your head straight. Rushing the day and pushing out this lynch was something I was dead set on, but I stopped and realized how fucking backwards that is. Sure, Nick is a top scum candidate of mine. But Mala's been sending up flags and I've figured out a way to determine THREE PLAYERS' alignments with only a lynch on one of them. That's eons better than your proposed 'scumhunting'. Also, the amount of shit that I've kicked up by doing this has produced lots of amazing reactions and things to look at when we're finally done with Mala and/or Nick, so, yeah, I think you need to take a step back and realize that Varsoon is doing the most scum-hunting in this entire game.

Wait. Have I not made my own case for Nick and mala, as stated before? Many people have had their individual reasons for Mala/nick and they won't be shoving the blame elsewhere either way. Discovering Nacho's alignment doesn't require a gambit. Hell, no one's alignment requires a gambit and I still think it's shaky at best to work. (plus, I think Nacho has strong association to Rach that can pin him regardless of this).

4-You don't know what I'm doing. Part of this gambit is, in fact, to reveal it in such a way. See point 3, man. My gambit has already produced awesome content. And, again, I reiterate, you have no clue what I'm doing, so stop saying it won't work. Just because I don't play by the same little codes and pathways that most players do doesn't mean that what I'm capable of is less effective. Open your mind.

So you want to say I'm not good enough to figure out this idea? And yes, it's produced content: It's given Nick a way out and he immediately bit even with all the contradictions that holds to his own stance. But do I think it will get anything effective enough to change the town's course of action for one person's idea, no.

[Aj The Epic]

Secondly, Nick keeps going "I'll get that case up later" constantly. I wrote a mala case in probably 10 minutes yesterday, it was that easy. You can get just about ANY post and go with it. Why is it taking him so damn long?

Because school just started and i'm fucking busy, what exactly would I get out of delaying it?

This. Feels like AJ's talking out of his ass and trying to accuse you of stalling. However, wouldn't the more effective stalling method be to post a good case against a counterwagon?

A 'good case' would no longer be stalling. How can you possibly even accuse my of not knowing what I'm talking about when as to date, I'm one of only two people who have written up a case again Mala and Nick, and one of only three to produce a case on Mala for scum. I didn't even SAY he was stalling. I was suggesting he was having an incredible amount of difficulty putting together reasons that Mala is scum. He's fitting a case to his read which has been incredibly inconsistent on Mala to begin with. Ergo, HE DOESN'T FEEL MALA IS SCUM.

2- I've reiterated, even in the post you reference as bad logic, that they could both be scum. The point is, my alignment doesn't fucking CLEAR anyone. It gives a truthful alignment tell. I'd rather get information on 3 players instead of haphazardly risk a mislynch on two in a row. Blindly fumble around and lynch Mala regardless of evidence D3? Sounds real fuckin' town, AJ. Even as a contingency plan, that's not going to give us the info we could mine out of this situation.

Blindly fumbling? Come on, dude! I've spent tons of times reiterating WHY mala is scum. I'll do so tomorrow as well, but besides Mastin, I trust the Nick wagon as a whole more than the Mala wagon.

(And your alignment isn't really apart of this gambit in theory. Obviously, scum has ulterior motive, but the alignment of the gambiter shouldn't matter.) I was speaking more towards correlating playstyle to alignment having no real connection. Take, for example, if notscience and SoS were scum (confirmed town this game for better example). Does Notscience's scum play resemble gif's scum play? No, not at all. (In fact, I have a game where both of them were scum to prove this). So, can I make a correlation that if ns flips scum, this means that this playstyle (probs inconsistent, short spam posting) is scum this game and Gif/sos posting (case posting, still fairly often, more consistent) is NOT scum? This is the fundamental issue I have with your case: No, it does not and you'd lose the game assuming that. Equally, does this mean here that Mutley and ns are both scum in that game because their post styles are similar? No, because scum aren't determined by style.

3- If you think, in some bizarre world, that everyone sheeping MY OWN POINTS and B&B's against Nick is actually scum hunting, you need to get your head straight. Rushing the day and pushing out this lynch was something I was dead set on, but I stopped and realized how fucking backwards that is. Sure, Nick is a top scum candidate of mine. But Mala's been sending up flags and I've figured out a way to determine THREE PLAYERS' alignments with only a lynch on one of them. That's eons better than your proposed 'scumhunting'. Also, the amount of shit that I've kicked up by doing this has produced lots of amazing reactions and things to look at when we're finally done with Mala and/or Nick, so, yeah, I think you need to take a step back and realize that Varsoon is doing the most scum-hunting in this entire game.

Wait. Have I not made my own case for Nick and mala, as stated before? Many people have had their individual reasons for Mala/nick and they won't be shoving the blame elsewhere either way. Discovering Nacho's alignment doesn't require a gambit. Hell, no one's alignment requires a gambit and I still think it's shaky at best to work. (plus, I think Nacho has strong association to Rach that can pin him regardless of this).

4-You don't know what I'm doing. Part of this gambit is, in fact, to reveal it in such a way. See point 3, man. My gambit has already produced awesome content. And, again, I reiterate, you have no clue what I'm doing, so stop saying it won't work. Just because I don't play by the same little codes and pathways that most players do doesn't mean that what I'm capable of is less effective. Open your mind.

So you want to say I'm not good enough to figure out this idea? And yes, it's produced content: It's given Nick a way out and he immediately bit even with all the contradictions that holds to his own stance. But do I think it will get anything effective enough to change the town's course of action for one person's idea, no.

[Aj The Epic]

We'll use the spoiler for this one. Nacho, these are yours. Second quote is a response to FTL, however.

P-edit: Lol Nacho, it isn't.

Spoiler:

Didn't you already compromise once? What makes you think that things will swing back over to Mala with a nick lynch?

Kinda. I wanted Mala, but Mastin and Thez drew the idea that I agree with: There's a connection between them. They wanted Rach more, 2:1 I'm outnumbered. But if you noticed the amount of support Mala had and the fact that Thez's slot isn't in this game anymore, I had no support for a Mala wagon AGAIN today. So I asked BnB if they would help with Mala tomorrow IF I helped with Nick today. The fact that a Mala wagon is there is irrelevant because I really don't like this gambit as of so far and 4/5 isn't enough. I'm comfortable sitting on the case because it will come. I have done everything to garner support to get a wagon on her eventually, even if this isn't traditional methods for it.

AJ seems to be on the ground that Nick and Mala are a cross-bus.

No... I really think Mala is scum and am fine with lynching a scum read of mine I've had vocally since the beginning of d1. The two wagons are both good, but I've stated multiple times, i really don't see a correlation between nick and Mala like I saw between Rach and Mala and maybe even a hint of Nick/Rach.

If you could remind me what Mala's scum play looks like and what games you're pulling that from, that would be great.

JFY, Nacho...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=24201

It's mala's replication of a thoughtful townie. Yes, differences in scum play between games, but i already said I had looked at other meta by Mala to try and get her lynched in the above posted game.

Plenty of other people had reads that disagreed with yours; why did you pick up on TF and no one else?

I spoke in that specific post about all the things I disagreed with. You just re-read it, was any other player combining the same amount of badness together? It was also specifically because they were pushing mastin, a strong town read of mine.

Can you show me the scumgame where Mala AtEd so heavily and often?

This one.

But besides that, no.

I don't like that your initial vote on Rach sets up for another lynch.

You don't have to. I already explained this multiple times, but I saw connections between Mala and Rach and it would help me get Mala lynched if Rach flipped scum (which she did).

Calling drunkposting a scumtell is weird but probably a personality thing so noting but not considering as anything significant.

My initial reason for this was to point out that Andy drunk posting wasn't a town tell. My explanation was purely my reasoning. I never intended to call drunk posting a scum tell, just prove that it wasn't a town tell.

This vote is weird.

Agreed. It was me trying to get a lynch before I wasn't going to be available. I didn't have a lot of time, so I posted to help swing the weight to a wagon and get a secured lynch. Generally, I wouldn't do that but time constrains made it justifiable in my mind.

Yeah and I don't really like that.

Again, you don't have to. Mala's wagon just never picked up any traction and so I went about different ways to try and incriminate her. This also prevented me from just tunneling her and not paying attention to anyone else until she died. Getting Mala lynched is my priority, but I was not afforded the ability to be straightforward to garner support for her wagon.

[Aj The Epic]

He's fitting a case to his read which has been incredibly inconsistent on Mala to begin with. Ergo, HE DOESN'T FEEL MALA IS SCUM.

Are you saying that Nick and Mala can't be scum together with this sentence? Because I don't necessarily feel that way with your logic at all.

It could, but it could also mean scum have leashed him in favor of keeping Mala alive. His case is delayed even with school (spoiler: 50% of this game is probably in school or college right about now) and I have a feeling it's going to come over really weak or mirroring one of the cases that has already been said. Though, you know as well as I do it isn't a hard task to find scummy posts in Mala's iso.

Essentially correct, yes. BRO fell off again. BRO's a null--I can't say with certainty he's scum, but I can't cite any kind of behavior or post that's makes me fucking secure about BRO, and he's neither pissed me off or reached out to me. This in and of itself bothers me, kind of like AJ.

I personally like what you've been doing. You're one of the few who has Mala as a scum read for two days now and you've pursued it. And you've got similar enough reads that I don't feel the need to compare and synchronize perfectly by going "Here's my reads, this is what we need to argue". Why argue them? There really isn't much to bother with to begin with, anyways. I just don't think today is the day for Mala's lynch. Tomorrow, I plan on having you, bro, and I getting Mala lynched. I rarely reach out to begin with and when I do, it's fairly brief before I go back to my own reads and theories.

[Aj The Epic]

I'll do so tomorrow as well, but besides Mastin, I trust the Nick wagon as a whole more than the Mala wagon.

Who are you talking about specifically here, and why does this matter when you think mala is scum much more strongly than you think nick is (to the point that you've admitted you have doubts about nick because of your other scum reads)

Also, how the fuck is sheeping your town reads even a legitimate excuse. This is fucking lazy, and just serves as an excuse. If nick flips town, you have th convenient, "oh, I thought my town reads were right!" excuse.

It worries me that you've seemingly become more and more confident with this nick lynch without much reason.

So I asked BnB if they would help with Mala tomorrow IF I helped with Nick today.

I hate this reasoning so much, and this is the reason I will never be part of a town bloc. Trying to set up lynches like this is fucking dumb.

But hey, since we're in the habit of setting up lynches, if nick

and

mala are consecutively lynched today and tomorrow and both flip town, I want AJ dead the following day, no questions asked.

1. I assume you're asking who I'm trusting on Nick? BROseidon, Trust Fund, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Mutleyddmc are all town reads of mine or essential confirmed town. What does it matter here? The ONLY REASON Mala picks any support here today is because of some 'gambit' that I really, really, really don't like testing. Nick changes his whole damn read just to vote mala and hasn't presented a case ('tonight' was days ago) that FTL seems to be waiting for. I don't like today's components of the Mala wagon besides ghostlin/mastin. Even if I'm reading FTL as town, I don't trust him with this gambit and it was evident at the begining of the day that we weren't going to lynch Mala by traditional methods at the start of the day.

I've invested my time into putting a case forth for why Nick could easily be scum. Lest you forget I had the first vote on Nick in the game and had him as a scum read the whole time. If you remember, my issue was that I couldn't find where he fit. So no, Nick isn't a town read by any stretch of the mind, I'm just not nearly as confident as I am with Mala.

2. I'm not a fan of them either, but I CAN'T get enough mala support as is. Even if I'm on that wagon right now, we have five votes to her, two of which really suck (FTL, Nick). Five votes is not a lynch. There are diehard advocates of Malascum, but as of now, there are four (Ghostlin, Mastin, myself, Bro). Mala is not town, but I hate this gambit enough to go after possible buddies until Varsoon decides that this gambit isn't the way to go.

Lynch me if they both flip town? Well, I'll probably kill myself if Mala flips town at this point, so don't bother.

[Aj The Epic]

So FTL, now that Nick is 'playing against his wincon', what is your read on him? I figured as much for him not having anything for Malascum... but here's what's odd: He still holds that Mala is his strongest scum read. Even though he's too lazy/can't be bothered for a case like he promised for basically the last five days and stalled this day to hell and back. I think this is basically the nail confirming nick as scum.

[Aj The Epic]

After all the fuss you made about how he HAD to make a case and it was for his wincon to go along with you, you're willing to call that null.

[Aj The Epic]

Everyone else:

(From least to most scummy)

Venmar-I'm not seeing enough involved content here, which is concerning. I'm worried he might be just sitting on his claim and just making short posts to avoid getting a second glance. That said, I don't think he's a very good early game lynch.
Ghostlin- He doesn't push Rach much but jumps on her wagon at the very end, which is alarming. His day 2 stuff his been a bit better.

Mac

-He just goes with the flow a little too hard. Also, the fact that no pressure seems to be on him at all is a bit worrying, I think he may just be hiding in the BnB townread.

Nachomamm8

- I'm not going to retread over all of what mastin said in 2815, but Rach's treatment of Nacho was very bad. Also, he votes Rach in 995 but then unvotes in 1432, and I can't find any explanation for either. I don't like his treatment of her, and I don't like her treatment of him. No one seems to hold him accountable for anything he does, which is very very bad.

Malakittens

-The push on FTL was really bad, and I didn't like how it seemed people were ignoring what I said about her. She's also extremely inactive, which is very annoying, she seems to be hiding behind my lynch.

No matter what you say, she's still your strongest, even if it is simply because you hold Nacho and Mac there, neither of which I've seen any reasoning for outside of your third or fourth day 1 post which wasn't all that convincing.

AS for your "Apparently I'm the only one who likes more discussion" Woe is me part, FTL even was counting on your case for discussion, as was many people (signaled by all those bork prodded: Mala, Mut, ns). How do you call that more discussion when people go to lurk waiting for you to do something?

[Aj The Epic]

Your blame is misplaced, too. I'm the one who pulled the brakes on this wagon so that we could get more out of D2. Obviously, folks like you and B&B can't respect that. That's okay.

I respect that your gambit is stupid. We;ll lynch Mala because she's scum, not because you can't see proper logic and proceed to believe you can somehow get a certain guaranteed confirm on certain players for reasons you won't reveal. The reasoning you've had, I've dismantled piece by piece and you didn't respond. We have nothing to discuss on this ground.

[Aj The Epic]

Spoiler: Andy

TOWN

AJ The Epic

Desperado
Ghostlin
Nachomamma8

Saki

mutleyddmc
FasterThanLight

LEANINGTOWN
borkjerfkin

LEANING SCUM
TrustFund
TiphanieDeath
mac
BROseidon
zMuffinMan

SCUM
mastin

RachMarie

nickthename

Venmar

NACHO, I LEAVE IT ALL TO YOU

BeautyandtheBeast

Malakittens

SoundofSilence

TOWN
Desperado
Ghostlin

Saki

mutleyddmc
mastin2
Venmar

Nachomamma8
FasterThanLight

LEANING SCUM
TiphanieDeath
BROseidon
zMuffinMan

AJ The Epic

SCUM

RachMarie

nickthename

mac
Trust Fund

NACHO, I LEAVE IT ALL TO YOU

BeautyandtheBeast

Malakittens

SoundofSilence

IF I CLOSE MY EYES FOREVER

I haven't even posted and you're all over the place on me.

Haven't had a chance to do any rereading to recalibrate reads, so stuff is really wonky right now. Scumlist right now looks like:

Scum:

Mala
Venmar

These are more

based on the Rach flip than anything else

, so the Nick flip didn't weaken these too much. The Mala read is stronger than the Venmar one, though.

Possibly Scum:

AJ
Andy
Desp
Mac
Nacho
TD
TF

Town:

FTL
Ghost
Mastin
Mutt
Muffin

I'm hoping that I'll either get a chance to do rereads soon, or that today will shed light on that middle group. Hoping to pull two solid scumreads from that middle group, and I have a few ideas on where to look to start. Nacho scum exonerates Venmar, btw. I don't think they can be together on a scumteam.

As far as what happened day 1 goes, it's either that scum found the Andy counterwagon more juicy (which would be strange, given the vote counts you just posted), or there was a last-ditch effort to give a weak Andy slot towncred once scum saw that Rach was going down. Given the way that Andy coasted through yesterday, I think that would be a good place to apply pressure today.

Other than Mala, of course. I still want her head.

VOTE: EVIL KITTENS

Bro, this makes little sense. Your differing conviction from beginning to end makes very little sense especially when I know you want to hard scum read mala. Why does it come off as if you have no strong opinion on scum?

i don't think mala is scum, and i will probably replace out if a repeat of d2 happens today with mala instead of nick. i'm not interested in arguing why mala is a bad lynch, and i don't expect to hear any good responses to the objections i have against it. venmar is also a horrible candidate at this point.

i will say this, though. in light of the nick flip, mala's d2 posts look townish, and the fact that she never showed any interest in jumping on the nick wagon is a good sign.

my guess is that even lynching randomly from those on the nick wagon would more likely hit scum than a mala lynch.

which reminds me. i want to hear why people think the nick wagon stalled so hard d2. i recall hearing a lot about how it was so obviously a town-driven wagon.

1. I'm constantly disappointed by how hard you are to communicate to, as you've got this "Fuck you all" persona going for anyone who disagrees with you. I prefer not to deal with that, I tried once, disliked it and quit.

2. Can you give me a specific post? Mala more or less was rather inactive towards the end of day 2, having made a prod dodge at the very end of the day. If anything, I'd say today she's posted town to what I know accurately, but this didn't exist day 1.



I'll post more once I'm on a more reliable internet.

[Aj The Epic]

Why are we having this discussion about Mastin?

[Aj The Epic]

i'm curious as to why AJ isn't jumping for joy that mala is a viable lynch.

Actually, I was going to before reading through the full day, but her approach seemed greatly altered. I was going to sit on it a while. The exchange between her and bro was interesting in the fact that it made bro look awful and mala look townie when put in a vacuum. I've been re-reading her and sitting for today just to make sure I'm not going confirmation bias on her with Rach.

[Aj The Epic]

This needed a spoiler. Mainly for bro.

Spoiler:

Bro, you've had a surprisingly awful start today. Here's the posts:
3700: Your post about scum reading venmar and mala, mainly off the rach wagon (100+ pages back?) and sound completely uncommitted to both until the bottom where you start your rage.
I thought 3723's last sentence felt of hypocrisy (asking muffin to stop going after you) when technically, you are tunneling mala and should be prepared to receive what you deal.
Mala refuted pretty well 3734, and although I still don't like that "Lol Policy lynch" post and that is a legitimate reason to scum read, you came up with some pretty awful short posts after (the drunk post... even though andrius did the same thing and was called town for it, comes to mind)

1) Whining about nobody listening to her.
2) "Oh my wagon might be town driven." Watch me sit on this fence and not actually try to analyze anything.
3) "Let me sit on the fence about Nick more"
4) "Let me make an unsubstantiated claim about BRO because the NK points to him being scum, despite the fact that the NK makes sense for a fuckton of other people as scum as well given that SoS was a huge threat to any scumteam."
5) "Let me both fencesit and have a weak read on Ghost"
6) "Let me just discredit what Mac is saying"
7) "Let me fencesit some more"

This was particularly bad attempt to paraphrase or misrep as it bears very little to the actual content to said quoted mala post.

Counter on FTL with

thez,

Mala,

Skull,

TD,

Nick

. Thez and Nick have both flipped town, and Mutt is a strong townread. Mala is currently my main scumread, and I've grown wary of TD, so that makes me feel pretty good here, so Mala>TD in terms of likeliness of scum pushing counterwagon.

Counter on

mastin

of Venmar, TF, myself,

nick

, TD. Venmar is currently a scumread and I'm wary of both TD and TF. Venmar>TF>TD

Counter on Andy then forms.

BnB, SoS, NS

are the first three on it, and they're all town. Mala and TF could be scum trying to push a town counter-wagon further, which would fit with the FTL and

mastin

wagons.

How does this make sense in the context of the point your making? It makes it look like mastin's wagon was scum driven with you on it, and FTL's was town driven, lacking you. This almost works for Trust fund better because the delivery looks like you're mashing issues together and trying to force an answer that does not exist to this equation.

BnB re-pushes nick wagon. Looks town driven. Mastin>FTL for scum there

This is incredibly bad. Period. There is nothing here that looks good.

D2BRO: i think mala is scum for x, y, z, BUT i think one of nick and bnb is scum, and bnb is pushing a nick lynch, so i will join bnb and vote nick, even though nobody agrees that my reasoning for thinking one of bnb/nick is scum is sound.

if you think this isn't an accurate representation, tell me why.

You're missing the parts where I townread bnb, and the momentum swung to the nick wagon.

I'm sorry that I compromised on a lynch to read a scumread over a scumread. Wait...

Also, I would have pushed bnb at today's start had they not been NK'd. Scum made my life easier there.

I was reading bnb as town because I was reading nick as scum. Once nick flipped town, I felt I needed to slow down. I wanted to push bnb today so that I'd see whether I was wrong, but scum answered that question for me.

And why do scum like calling something TvS when they know it's TvT? Why wouldn't they call it TvT to build towncred?

Also, I need to step back and find time to get a reread in. I'm starting to doubt a few of my reads at both ends...

Well talk about flipping back and forth.

BnB goes town to being pressured today to town if nick is scum. But, you have BnB being scum because nick town, saying you would 'have to back off' yet this didn't happen. So what you've done is lied twice in two different ways, one about your bnb read and two about how you were playing this day. You certainly didn't back off to re-access your reads today, just pushed forward. That's the mistake I'm worried of right now. Especially seeing what you've done not making any adjustments.

[Aj The Epic]

what are your current reads, AJ?

i thought the only reason you were fine with lynching nick is because you wanted to lynch mala today.

why are you not voting anyone?

Town (In no order other than how I list them)
Mastin
Muffin
Trust Fund
Ghostlin
FTL
Andrius
Notscience
Mutley


Null
Venmar (Solely here because of Mastin town reading him)
TD
Mac

LeanScum
Nacho
Desp

Scum
Bro
Mala

Also, can I ask what made YOU change your mind on Mala? You were deadset against mala's lynch.

i'm curious as to why AJ isn't jumping for joy that mala is a viable lynch.

Actually, I was going to before reading through the full day, but her approach seemed greatly altered. I was going to sit on it a while. The exchange between her and bro was interesting in the fact that it made bro look awful and mala look townie when put in a vacuum. I've been re-reading her and sitting for today just to make sure I'm not going confirmation bias on her with Rach.

Uh-huh.




Muffin, you're right. It's not {Nacho, Desp, BRO}.
It's {Nacho, Desp, Aj}.

Oh bugger off. I don't have a bad attitude, either, I think you're using that word wrong. I've got issues with Bro here, and the fact that he hasn't even stopped to consider makes me worried that, like yesterday, he's trying to pull me into a lynch I had already championed to get an easy mislynch and have me share blame with him so he could push me forward first. BnB had to tell him to back off before he actually stopped early D2 (I hadn't even signed in for D2 and he was acting as if I was going to support him all the way through and buddying up to me. I don't like that).

If by attitude, you mean approach, perhaps I am wrong. That's an option. I haven't stopped scum reading Mala, I'm just unwilling to continue this without checking Bro. He worries me, his attitude personally pisses me off to no end, and it's almost unbearable to read how emotionally caught up he tries to appear to be. The same could be said for a lot of players, so attitude wise I prefer to think I've taken the right approach in not using so much AtE you could serve it by the pound at a steak shop.

If I do nothing I'm lynched and if I do something I'm lynched.

well you wouldn't be lynched if you did something and it actually looked town.

i'm personally not convinced you're scum, but i wouldn't feel particularly bad if you're lynched because you're being antitown.

if you're town, why don't you help us find scum.

i'm not convinced ftl is scum, change my mind.

while you're at it, talk about who else you think is scum, and who you think is town.

You don't get it do you?

I tried to do something during Day 1. I was getting scum read for catching up and interacting with players and posting my thoughts and chasing after my highest scum read.

These same said people who were voting me for being scum D1 are still alive and voting for me D2.

Although some of the people on my wagon currently I feel are town. So there's a chance this may be a town driven wagon (AJ, Mastin)

Nick did a crazy flip flop on me from Day 1 and it looks survivalist at this point. Which in both ways can be a town tell or a scum tell, but I might be leaning on a scum tell at this point with one scum dead.

BRO is probably scum due to the NK.

Ghostlin is fuck tunneling so I'm not sure, but due to him misrepping me I'm leaning scum.

Mac is just a confused townie.

I'm "eh" on FTL at this point. Something in Day 2 that was posted is making me think town. No I won't point it out. so I'm having mixed feels right now.

Let's look at the above Mala post, btw. What we have is:

1) Whining about nobody listening to her.
2) "Oh my wagon might be town driven." Watch me sit on this fence and not actually try to analyze anything.
3) "Let me sit on the fence about Nick more"
4) "Let me make an unsubstantiated claim about BRO because the NK points to him being scum, despite the fact that the NK makes sense for a fuckton of other people as scum as well given that SoS was a huge threat to any scumteam."
5) "Let me both fencesit and have a weak read on Ghost"
6) "Let me just discredit what Mac is saying"
7) "Let me fencesit some more"

There's no conviction behind any of that. It's a lot of confused, jarbled, and hedged reads, which look a lot like scum trying not to really ruffle any more feathers.

And there was a pretty fucking strong push to get people off of Rach's wagon. Andy and Nick BOTH got counterwagoned.

Alright bro, since you brought up the post I have issues with, let's talk about it.
1. You've bitched about it too. So has Desp, so has muffin. I've mentioned it. So if you want to use this, you're out of your mind.
2. She calls two people town on her wagon, and tou take that to "Fence sitting". She had a definite opinion there, so calling it fence sitting is a lie.
3. I won't argue this.
4. Aren't you trying to make a claim that mala is scum and failing logic 101 but for one point that I brought up on d1? I'd call that fairly unsubstantiated.
5. Do you have a good idea of what fence sit means? She called Ghostlin a scum lean. Jesus, fence this, fence that and you wonder why I'm saying this is bad. Your whole vocabulary for this post was 'fence sit'.
6. Like you're discrediting her. If you look into it, she townreads mac, but disagrees. Now, she could state what she does, but she gives a clear opinion on it.
7. "Fence sitting" Please use this word in a sentence not including The Eagles hit "Desperado". I disagree with your usage in all but one place.

[Aj The Epic]

He worries me, his attitude personally pisses me off to no end, and it's almost unbearable to read how emotionally caught up he tries to appear to be. The same could be said for a lot of players, so attitude wise I prefer to think I've taken the right approach in not using so much AtE you could serve it by the pound at a steak shop.

...Those emotions aren't fake.

If you flip scum I'm actually fucking blacklisting you for trying to use my emotions to make a case against me. That's how offensive this is to me. If you're just town and being wrong, then you're just a fucking idiot, but not a huge dick.

And it's fucking sad that, despite the fact that you claim I've served "so much AtE you could serve it by the pound at a steak shop," I still have gone into far more detail about my thought processes than the vast majority of this game.

I'm not making a case against you using emotions. As I said, I could do this with the majority of the game. Just lay off the caps lock key a bit, I can't read it without imagining the poster mashing keys all over the place and throwing things against the wall.

Alright bro, since you brought up the post I have issues with, let's talk about it.
1. You've bitched about it too. So has Desp, so has muffin. I've mentioned it. So if you want to use this, you're out of your mind.
2. She calls two people town on her wagon, and tou take that to "Fence sitting". She had a definite opinion there, so calling it fence sitting is a lie.
3. I won't argue this.
4. Aren't you trying to make a claim that mala is scum and failing logic 101 but for one point that I brought up on d1? I'd call that fairly unsubstantiated.
5. Do you have a good idea of what fence sit means? She called Ghostlin a scum lean. Jesus, fence this, fence that and you wonder why I'm saying this is bad. Your whole vocabulary for this post was 'fence sit'.
6. Like you're discrediting her. If you look into it, she townreads mac, but disagrees. Now, she could state what she does, but she gives a clear opinion on it.
7. "Fence sitting" Please use this word in a sentence not including The Eagles hit "Desperado". I disagree with your usage in all but one place.

Let's go through these one by one, shall we?

I tried to do something during Day 1. I was getting scum read for catching up and interacting with players and posting my thoughts and chasing after my highest scum read.

These same said people who were voting me for being scum D1 are still alive and voting for me D2.

Although some of the people on my wagon currently I feel are town. So there's a chance this may be a town driven wagon (AJ, Mastin)

Mala concedes here "I don't like that people scumread me for doing something, so I'm just not going to do anything." That is clearly a very towny reaction to have, instead of scum trying to lurk away pressure and not leave anything behind. Clearly. It's especially awkward because she says that SHE THINKS PEOPLE ON HER WAGON ARE TOWN. IF SHE THINKS THAT, WHY DOESN'T SHE TRY TO DO ANYTHING WITH THEM AT ALL.

Nick did a crazy flip flop on me from Day 1 and it looks survivalist at this point. Which in both ways can be a town tell or a scum tell, but I might be leaning on a scum tell at this point with one scum dead.

You already agree with me here. Moving on.

BRO is probably scum due to the NK.

What I'm bringing up is the fact that Mala uses the NK to try to throw shade on me, despite the fact that SoS is a huge threat to anybody as scum. I was a viable wagon at that point; a lot of people were (and still are) scumreading me, including powerful players back then (bnb, Nacho, etc). It's a lazy way to try to appear like she's thinking, but her logic doesn't hold because it's not a point about why I am scum over

the fast majority of players that would want ffery and GiF out early

. I also don't actually get what you're contesting me about here because your semantics are vague as fuck. If you'd clarify what "but for one point that I brought up on d1? I'd call that fairly unsubstantiated." is supposed to mean?

Ghostlin is fuck tunneling so I'm not sure, but due to him misrepping me I'm leaning scum.

I use "fence-sit" here because her language is slightly hedged in the first half. She's saying that he's a slight scum read, but the level of uncertainty and weakness she applies to the read in the first half of the sentence is worrysome.

Mac is just a confused townie.

There's a difference between discrediting and trying to argue against. I've been arguing against people all game. I've gone through points and tried to articulate, in great detail, why I feel the way I do. That's engagement. What Mala does here is discredit; she says "Oh Mac is town but he's just being wrong" with the implication that ignoring him for a while is fine. That is not a town way to approach things because it lessens the flow of information and invalidates opinions without trying to better understand where those opinions come from.

I'm "eh" on FTL at this point. Something in Day 2 that was posted is making me think town. No I won't point it out. so I'm having mixed feels right now.

The problem I have is that she's not decisive in how she says she's unsure in her read. If she'd said "I'm unsure of FTL," that would have sufficed. Why did she include the additional qualifiers?

I prefer this so much more than the first one, I'm not even going to argue it. Admittedly for number 1, Mastin and I hard scumread Mala so badly she couldn't talk to one of us without us picking it apart word for word. I didn't quite like my own arguments there as I was grasping at straws to pick away at the case, but I really needed some reason to trust you.

Just lynch me. I'm a liability in LyLo anyways (if I were to make it that far) since I'm mislynch bait for scum.

Mala, I give you an inch and you hang yourself with it. Quite literally. You could've gone and tried to continue what you had started at the beginning of D3.

vote:Mala

i reconsidered when i looked at the game from a different angle. i do not think the entire scum team was on the nick lynch, and all of the people who were off the nick wagon are among my strongest town reads except for mala. i can justify why everyone off the nick wagon (except mala) is town, but i'm not going to do it today, so don't bother asking.

Can I ask what then made Mala town previously, or are you still holding that we just couldn't make a case worth lynching her on?

[Aj The Epic]

AJ ~
Just two questions.

What's your definition of "to incriminate"?

Why were you bulletproof N2?

I personally prefer lexical definitions, and as such: To make one appear guilty of a specific crime.

Considering that there's about no chance of you being scum, I mine as well just claim. I'm a one shot bullet proof townie, who actively tried to get shot night 1 to remove that benefit. I wanted to remove any ambiguity because I had/have strong reasons to believe a traitor exists in this game and my role's job was to add a counterbalance to it. Not only do I have a strong reason to suspect much, but this is generally the key reason a bullet proof townie is added in (I can point a few games I was in recently with the same role).

Unfortunately, I received no notification to recognize anyone having removed this from me. I can, however, show a trail of crumbs I left to try to get this removed and how it has affected my logical progression through the game.

[Aj The Epic]

Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.

Seriously, though: The writing is on the wall that Mala is scum this game.

I didn't realize that I became so damn outspoken when I had caught scum. The FTL thing was not TvT, that's a terrible assumption. Unfortunately, I'm probably going to end up on my second choice (nick) because I have two townreads and a conftown there right now.

(I thought this would be slightly more obvious than it was in hindsight, though I didn't really want to go blatant hint cop, draw a real claim and get the town in a whole shitton of trouble. I used an old religious reference of death after a truthful telling to reference where I'd go [hand of god, stated that he was displeased with Belshazzar, killed the King for his sins being to stating displeasure and going to get a guilty read] My major attempt was to make a soft hint at a possible action going to mala here. Leads to a stronger hint:)

Apparently, however, you have enough support that unless I really wanted to ram this case down everyone's throat, I'm just wasting my time on you.

I will be going for something more solid

. But Mala, inwardly you have to know this isn't your town game.

Mastin, who do you suggest we lynch first, then? Mala, since she has the strongest associative tells?

(I also was thinking of some of the nacho-relations that didn't make me feel too good about the slot, but I was thinking I was jumping at shadows to have him tied to Rach. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it).

Out of your reads, I think Andrius is wrong. It's Rach's counterwagon and Rach IS the connection to which everyone else (other than Nick, I really haven't found a place for him yet) fits. I really think today's lynch is rach or mala, then the other the next day.

P-edit: Mala, you tie to Rach, not nacho. If Nacho flipped scum, Rach still has to flip to incriminate you. And vice versa.

Mastin, walk me through Nick's connections and THEN we can talk about taking him first. Rach is my candidate right now, because if you're also seeing Nacho, she sticks at the center of this web.


...............Andrius
..................|
Mala-Rach-Nacho
...|.......|
...|---Venmar

And then Nick's all by himself. That's why I don't get why go to nick first. Sure the wagons help a bit, but I think that's a little more random than actual textual interaction.

This was me trying to see if Nick was our traitor. I couldn't find any real connection between him and the rest, and so I wanted to see if Mastin had an idea. Also, on the day 2 when he didn't go after mala with a case, I couldn't word that he might've been the mafia traitor without having to explain my own role in relation. It made sense to me, though, as the day went on. I had scum read him for a long time, he didn't seen to have any connections to mala yet flipped on her and the refused a case. So in my head, I had the traitor who felt he was owned and didn't want to drag a partner he may have known about down. Even without possibly knowing his partner, Mala was as good a guess as any for scum at that point and it was best for him not to tear at his own team.

Do I think Nick is scum? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. His posting hasn't been fantastic (As I will expand upon seeing as you so kindly asked) but it would be a little bit of a curve ball to my own thinking if he turned up scum. Throughout, as I've stated, his only consistent interactions with town reads are Bro and TD, both of which I have at varying degrees of town.

So after quoting through his iso, I found one post on top of what I saw that I really didn't like before (it's the last one in this, and I believe it's out of order so I can address it a bit more)

Spoiler:

@1381
Wow, you managed to make an entire reads list without saying or committing to anything. Scummy, although I don't know the meta, maybe this is par for the course.

I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though, but if she keeps sitting on the fence day 2 i'll most certainly want to lynch her then.

We should be lynching Mastin

This.

Alright. This is part of the two-post important special for Nick and the main foundation of anything I have for him. First, we see he DISLIKES Rach's read list (which, fyi, is worse than anything Mastin put up this game), but denies that Rach is a good d1 lynch, saying they should be lynching mastin (off of wagon support formed from that '5 scum' comment mastin had). But,

I don't understand the Andrius case and don't like this idea of lynching Rach today. That said, I'd prefer Rach to nothing, so I guess I'll vote her, unless something convinces me Andrius is scum, which is actually possible, since I perhaps if someone actually explains that case I'll understand it.

I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though

Why not?

Rach hasn't provided much content at all today, her reads sit on the fence so hard it's ver difficult to tell what she thinks of anyone. However, she has promised better reads and commentary day 2.

I agree that her behavior today has been scummy,

but hear me out.

Assume for the sake of argument that she doesn't provide any useful content during the rest of Day 1, which I think is a fairly passable assumption considering her current behavior.
During day 2, if she still fails to provide any useful content, we lynch her.
If she does provide useful content day 2, we should be able to use that content to get a more accurate read on her. If we decide she's town, we avoid a mislynch. If scum, we still lynch her, but now we have her better reads to use against her partners.

---

It's plainly obvious to me that a mac lynch isn't going to happen, so i'm in favor of a mastin lynch.

His reads look very artificial

, mimicking popular town ideas without providing any decent reasons, and his posts are largely useless and fluffy, either in the form of talking about how towny he is, talking about

how he has secret reads he won't tell us

, or talking about how he's lying about how confident he is. This comes accross to me as scum trying to look engaged while lacking any real scumhunting.

As to Andy, I need to Iso him again, if anyone could post a non-meta based case against him, that would be nice.

Bad all around. First, he suggests leaving a 'scummy player' around to get a better read on her. He suggests multiple times he sees her as scummy, but doesn't want her dead day 1. Now with her flip, I can almost tie Nick to Rach just for this. He's protecting a buddy. More than that, he's giving her a chance at a free pass in his mind, in favor of a mastin lynch which is made worse by his three expressed reasons.

1: Artificial reads. This really isn't true. Mastin had been giving and re-explaining reads all day. Plus, as mentioned by me (and Nick!) Rach's reads are awful. Terrible amounts of coaching would've gone on in the scum qt had Rach lived.
2: Lying about confidence. Come on, I explained this: You don't employ LaL for this.
3. Looking engaged, no scum hunting: Mastin was the first to voice that he thought Nacho/Rach could be a thing. He admitted that he was having trouble with this game at the begining and Nick has unfairly tried to pin this as an issue when, guess what, Rach had the same issue without ever trying to fix it. This post willingly admits that Nick has a connection to Rach.

Most importantly here, I was trying to find a way to bend Nick:Rach without saying "I think Nick is a traitor who possibly knows his partners and they don't know him" because that sounds stupid. He asserted Mala to be town with low interaction between them day 1. It turns out it was just an honest read, but I had that tagged as him supporting mala when her wagon had the least support. Rach was more obvious tying, as he took a weird "I can agree with lynching rach later" stance that I associated with "I can steer a lynch off today". And it, to me, made perfect sense why no one seemed to reciprocate anything to nick. (Oh, anything in green was me pointing out more to this post specifically)

It could, but it could also mean scum have leashed him in favor of keeping Mala alive. His case is delayed even with school (spoiler: 50% of this game is probably in school or college right about now) and I have a feeling it's going to come over really weak or mirroring one of the cases that has already been said. Though, you know as well as I do it isn't a hard task to find scummy posts in Mala's iso.

So FTL, now that Nick is 'playing against his wincon', what is your read on him? I figured as much for him not having anything for Malascum... but here's what's odd: He still holds that Mala is his strongest scum read. Even though he's too lazy/can't be bothered for a case like he promised for basically the last five days and stalled this day to hell and back. I think this is basically the nail confirming nick as scum.

Again, I was trying to suggest there was a connection without ever suggesting mala had reason to defend nick. To me, it made more sense if Nick WAS a traitor that he'd decide to stall out and hope for the best when he might've been infringing on his own team's plan. Everything he did was so non-committed with Mala, I felt as if he didn't no where to go that wouldn't hurt the team more. Theoretically, as traitor, Nick's hands would've been tied and he wouldn't have been able to make a move without seriously endangering his team, hence the 'leash' comment. Plus, Nick town reading mala and suddenly flipping when his wagon started seemed like more of an attempt to save mala than his own life.


Bro, it was a tad obvious Mutt was lying... Just the fact of a one shot vig in a large game with only one fraction would make this game take forever even with lynches and night kills consistent. Plus, I've never seen a one shot vig in a game this large. I suspect that he stayed alive more because scum didn't categorize him as a threat when he was away and inactive the majority of D2's latter half.

[Aj The Epic]

This requires another spoiler. Inside, I have responses to FTL, Muffin, and kinda Mac...

Spoiler:

@AJ

: I really like this post. It makes sense if I'm reading it correctly. However, I'm confused about a few things;

What the fuck does a traitor do? (Wiki says they can't do any QT chat/make kills, but is there something I'm missing?)
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor? The way you're writing about it makes it seem like they don't, but the wiki says sometimes the scum-team does.
What's your basis for saying there must be a traitor? Is it solely based in the fact you've never seen these PRs without a traitor to counterbalance them? How the fuck does a traitor even counterbalance them?
So... Nick's not a traitor, so what does that mean for us now?

The only reason I'd see for scum to keep Muttley alive is that his first shot hit town. It's clear that he wasn't a good judge of who to shoot, from an alignment standpoint. Getting two kills in one night? Seems pretty damn appealing, despite the risks.

Where I'm at right now, I'm really damn hesitant to believe you, AJ. How do I know you're not a 1-shot bulletproof Traitor, and all the crumbs you've had are false-crumbs so you could claim BP at this moment? This whole traitor thing out of nowhere feels out of left-field, because I'm not seeing much reason for you to figure that there's a traitor in the game

unless you absolutely knew it

--what's here doesn't seem like speculation, either. The easiest way I see to know it is if you are actually the traitor. Then again, I don't really know how the fuck that role works, or what a one-shot BP // Multi-shot Vig would entail that'd make you so sure there'd be a traitor in this game.

Does that make sense?

-V

From a recent thread I remember in the Mafia discussion, I think they said there were three major changable parts for a traitor:
Traitor knows scum team (or part)

Y

/N
Traitor killed by scum team rejoins

Y

/N
Scum team knows to look for traitor Y/

N

Mafiascum generally follows by the bold. Yeah, they don’t make kills (which is seen by the fact that all kills are accounted for scum/vig so far) and they can’t communicate with their team
My role inherently wouldn't mean a traitor exists. However, given that there is one, it would suggest the second part of the above being yes. I am not running simply on theory here. Let's just say the bold portion is most likely true.
1-shot BP traitor is incredibly rare as is to the point I've never even heard of one. If I really was a bullet proof traitor (or, infinity more likely, Godfather), I guarantee my claim would've been something like "I am not bullet proof and can't help you there".

That second question goes both ways, actually--
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor?
and
Does the traitor know who the scum team is?

EBWOP: you make it seem like the scum team knows they do*, but the traitor and the scum team don't know who each other are, if that makes sense.


-V

I think the more likely conclusion is they guessed at it. It is completely possible they knew a traitor exists (no question now). My theory was the scum team had no idea who the traitor was. When I was looking at Nick, I first assumed that he didn’t know the scum team (correct assumption) but later assumed he knew a member or two, or even had found slips by himself to give him an idea on the team. The scum team might not have known of a traitor at all (which is why I kept quiet) and finding a traitor might lead them to make a fake claim to explain the lack of kill and try to gain town points. I could, of course, challenge this if I felt the people involved had any reason to be scummy. So the logic went.

Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.

no, not really. i don't remember you doing much with RM or the RM wagon, and i barely remember anything you were saying about mala D1, so while you may have had suspicions of mala D1, you certainly weren't taking an active role in pushing that.

i also have issues with these "crumbs"

the reasoning for your obscure 'cop crumbs' makes little sense. firstly, no cop claims because they see someone crumbing cop. secondly, if your crumbs were so obscure that a real cop wouldn't pick up on them, then they're essentially fucking useless because how would scum pick up on them, especially if a real cop crumbed in a more obvious way.............................................

i don't see how you came to the conclusion that nick was a traitor in the first place. him not making sense as scum with some of your other reads doesn't automatically suggest "oh, he's a traitor!" you could have been wrong about nick (hint: you were), you could have been wrong in your scum reads, etc etc

also, i can't think of any town reason you'd 'crumb' that you thought nick was a traitor. traitor is scum like any other scum, so why would town-AJ need to crumb this? it only benefits scum, and i can think of reasons you'd do this as scum (say, letting your partners know that you think nick is the traitor)... but i can't think of any reason you'd do it as town.

also, i can't think of a town reason for why you'd automatically assume a traitor knows who their scum partners are. they don't always know.

not to mention, you thinking nick was a traitor doesn't even make any sense with the way you were talking about nick yesterday.

for example, you were constantly talking about how you trusted the people on the nick wagon more than those on the mala wagon. if you genuinely thought nick was a traitor that scum weren't aware of and mala was actual scum, then surely you should have thought that the nick wagon was more likely to be scum-infested than the mala wagon.....................................

then there's also the following quote, which makes no sense if you genuinely believe nick is a traitor that scum aren't aware of:

Imagine if Nacho and Nick are opposite alignments: The scum would know which is town

First: Yes, cops might counterclaim. In mafia theory, a VIG claim is safe because the vig can kill the liar at night. Especially if there has been a second kill. Therefore, trust vig claims. A cop, on the other hand, will counterclaim because they lack a way to handle guilties without lynching. The other issue with claiming cop is NO ONE DOES IT. Therefore, I crumbed an investigation attempt in hope that they’d pick it up. I’ve learned scum are pretty good at picking up crumbs as I got blasted by hiraki in another game when I accidentally dropped a crumb day 1. He found it and shot me that night to take out the town seer. So I was simply replicating my own cop play by crumbing once or twice day 1. As I’ve learned, it is actually improper to crumb cop unless you’re in danger of getting lynched d1, so I wasn’t worried about someone crumbing it over me.

You’re beating a dead horse there, muffin. I KNOW I was wrong now, but it’s slightly too late to change that (all mislynches represent a logical error somewhere). To me, he was an obvious candidate for a traitor in that situation since I figured a core of Rach/mala/nacho/venmar day 1 and Nick was a scum read from the beginning of D1. Having nothing in the way of connections, I figured he’d be a good candidate for traitor. I can explain the connections I saw now (and I’ve tried), unfortunately I don’t have nearly the same conviction because I know they’re wrong and invalid.

I didn’t crumb that nick was a traitor. I crumbed a cop claim, and then proceeded to recently show you how believing Nick was a traitor affected my playing. I agree, crumbing nick as a traitor is stupid and nowhere did I do that. But as scum, the easier way for me would’ve been just wait until the QT was up and explain that. Nick wasn't getting lynched that day, and wouldn’t the correct move for me as scum to lynch off a potential traitor I had scum read and keep the core team together? Wouldn’t a nick lynch benefit me in every way more than a Rach lynch?

Explained that to FTL. They generally know at least one in MS.net games. There’s a mafia discussion on the topic that I read through after Posh mafia and IaI turning traitor.

But my own reads take precedence here. I had many people on the Nick wagon as town, as I’ve explained. How do we know scum just didn’t plan on bussing mala day 2? I had given enough reason that, for me, rach as scum gave reason to Mala scum. Inherently, I didn’t truly mind the majority of the mala wagon, I just really dislike the idea of gambits. They fail far too often for me to be an active part of them. It still was a numbers game yesterday, as well. You certainly weren’t keen on lynching mala. At one time, I had run through and figured at most, there could be 6 votes that day on mala.

That quote isn’t really relevant for the simple reason that I’m trying to argue logical issues with FTL in his gambit. The statement basically was “Theoretically, Nick and Nacho are opposite alignments”, not “Theoretically, Nick and nacho could be the same alignment and Nick know they were but Nacho not know this”. It just doesn’t make sense to argue a gambit with someone using information he doesn’t have access to. Remember, the whole point for me was to sit on this knowledge until finding a good time to use it and arguing FTL’s gambit wasn’t that time. Also, as I said, I wasn’t crumbing the fact I knew there was a traitor, so why would I crumb it in a logical instance that had very little to do with the game other than if FTL’s gambit would work.

am I missing something here?

Aj claims 1 shot BP townie and says he tried his hardest to get shot on night one by being townie as fuck, right? meaning he used up his BP expecting to get shot.

...so how the fuck didnt he die n2?

Passive role. Bullet proof is used when shot, not employed to guard against potential shots. If I had to actively start this role, do you know how hard it would be to make this role useful?

[Aj The Epic]

* The mod neglected to inform Aj that his vest was used. (Aj, I expect you to ask the mod about this if you haven't already.)

I won't be informed of being hit or not.

Waynegg,

'If Skull is scum' is crazy weak for the theory we have here.

Thez, I know. I think Rach is the ideal lynch. All the major roots extend from her, and she hasn't proven anything useful. Mala will be incriminated, I get my lynch, and we then proceed to wreck the scum team.

AJ ~
Just two questions.

What's your definition of "to incriminate"?

Why were you bulletproof N2?

I personally prefer lexical definitions, and as such: To make one appear guilty of a specific crime.

Then, can you explain this?

I believed that a Rach scum flip made Mala almost confirmed scum. Am I missing something? In all simpler wording, it could alternately state "Mala is almost certainly guilty if Rach flips scum"

[Aj The Epic]

First of all, you're not using the language right. You want to argue semantics, go ahead. Here's how you use incriminate in a sentence according to the 2011 New Oxford American Dictionary
"he refused to answer questions in order not to incriminate himself"

Now, I really am starting to get lost about what you are saying here, but incriminate is to make some look guilty because of evidence. It's not a form of framing, it is literally evidence that points to another being guilty of a crime. Incriminate is not a euphemism, it is one step away from saying "This evidence makes you guilty beyond any reasonable doubt" in court. Had I said "Mala would look a lot more likely to be scum if Rach flips scum", that could be considered soft. Saying evidence incriminates someone is not, by any means, soft.

If you're scum, I hope you don't feel like scum caught for the wrong reasons...

For comparison, that's a euphemism.

[Aj The Epic]

@AJ

One more question, please. It may seem silly, but I really need to know why you chose the Rubix Cube as your long term Avi?

Spoiler:

If you want the honest answer, it was a long experiment side by side with my off site account to check lynch rates via avatar. I actually shifted my avatar offsite and noticed a change in how willing people would be to lynch me (at least, inexperienced ones), so I wanted to check what it was. This was months ago when I started. Basically, the reasoning was as follows:

Austin Powers
Michael Corleone
Wolfdog (from that old spice commercial)
Rubix Cube (Complete)

Each one represented a different lynch rate with the same style. In fact, the Corleone was such a high attempted lynch rate that I stopped using it. I found that people would even read my posts differently when I used different avatars. I started playing mafia with Austin powers and generally people took my posts as jokes. By the time I used the wolfdog one, most people knew my playstyle that they had already associated me with a certain style of play and a dreadful seriousness, but it did lower the attempted lynch rate.

On MS, I decided for that very reason to use a vague avatar in the fact that it's only representational of a solved rubix cube. It has worked beautifully in the fact that it's unmemorable, unimportant and not a representation of me at all. I've never noticed a certain type of read because of my avatar and hence I've kept it. (I have noticed avatar bias with others, however... so it isn't just the site.)

[Aj The Epic]

Due to a spoiler in a quote, I'm fairly certain I can't spoiler around it without breaking the spoilers.

Noooooooo! Multi format fail! Noooooooo!Third time the charm?

I'm a one shot bullet proof townie, who actively tried to get shot night 1 to remove that benefit.

Say we take that for your honest intentions. Why do you have less posts than bork (92 to his 94 now and 47 compared with his 54 D1 isolated)? If you were really trying to draw that kind of attention, it seems you would have been more engaged than that and done more than just

'Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!'

'Mala, Mala, Mala!'

.

And what others have said...

I wanted to remove any ambiguity because I had/have strong reasons to believe a traitor exists in this game...

...this makes no sense at all.


Now to tie it all in with why I was asking about ole Rubix. You're playing with a mathematical certainty. D1 had no pressure for you and you posted 1.9%, yesterday and today you're facing some questioning and posting 2.6%. Both of those numbers reflect posting just enough to seem active but stay mostly invisible. Also, you are playing very guarded. Pushing Mala is a low risk play to make because so many are doubting her, you blend right in even while pushing. The whole sum of your play lends itself to a scum optimal coefficient, whether by default or design.

Because my time is not infinite, neither can my posting amount be comparable. I also know power roles to stay a little bit quiet, but this is just the trend of a tutorial of "How to play your power role". Ergo, I'd figure that my activity, which wasn't all that bad day 1 before college started, would be sufficient for that.

As for removing ambiguity, sure it makes sense. If I hint cop and there comes Mutley's claimed "I killed Saki" post, I can immediately assume with decent certainty the other kill was aimed at me. That way, a future no-kill would represent block or traitor. And until reason to suspect doc/rb, expect traitor. My role was another obstacle to seeing the night when the traitor was recruited. As such, even if I revealed later, someone could look for dramatic read changes from day to day on a single person and would help us have a better understanding of who it was.

@AJ

Spoiler:

First: Yes, cops might counterclaim.

yeah, this is a load of bullshit. find me one game where a cop has claimed because they think they spotted someone crumbing cop.

I’ve learned scum are pretty good at picking up crumbs as I got blasted by hiraki in another game when I accidentally dropped a crumb day 1.

it is actually improper to crumb cop unless you’re in danger of getting lynched d1, so I wasn’t worried about someone crumbing it over me

these two quotes are contradictory. you know that people can crumb their role because you've done it before. derp.

To me, he was an obvious candidate for a traitor in that situation since I figured a core of Rach/mala/nacho/venmar day 1 and Nick was a scum read from the beginning of D1. Having nothing in the way of connections, I figured he’d be a good candidate for traitor.

i don't believe this. the logical conclusion when you can't see 'connections' isn't to assume someone is a traitor...

I agree, crumbing nick as a traitor is stupid and nowhere did I do that.

you

quoted yourself suggesting you thought nick was a traitor

. you even provided those quotes as 'evidence' that you thought nick was a traitor. you fucking said, "

This was me trying to see if Nick was our traitor

." If that isn't you crumbing that you thought Nick was a traitor, then what was it?

But as scum, the easier way for me would’ve been just wait until the QT was up and explain that. Nick wasn't getting lynched that day, and wouldn’t the correct move for me as scum to lynch off a potential traitor I had scum read and keep the core team together? Wouldn’t a nick lynch benefit me in every way more than a Rach lynch?

i'm not going to get into the wifom game, but i can think of a number of possible explanations.

They generally know at least one in MS.net games.

even if they

generally

know, that doesn't mean they

always

know, and there's no reason to assume they do know.

I had many people on the Nick wagon as town, as I’ve explained. How do we know scum just didn’t plan on bussing mala day 2?

yeah, this is also a load of bullshit. it's why i asked you to talk about who your scum reads on the mala wagon were, such that you felt better about the nick wagon. also, you should have known that if nick was actually a traitor the scum team was unaware of, and mala was part of the main team, the likelihood that the nick wagon was scum-infested was far fucking higher.

none of what you say really matches with what i would expect from you thinking logically as town. i'm not particularly interested in dealing with you til after a mala flip, though.

Muffin, I'd first have to find you a game of a cop crumbing. As the only one I know of is mine, I'd also like to point out I already stated it was a mistake. I SHOULDN'T have crumbed that. It doesn't benefit me. Sure, people do day cop tests for reaction, but I don't know of a cop claim day one. This also explains the second. Just because I've done so doesn't make it the right play.

Well, obviously we have strongly different thought processes. Unfortunately, arguing my own thought process to you is stupid because I can't convince you it is the correct way, just as you can't convince me yours is correct. You can only say that you would do so differently while I say that's how I did. I assumed traitor because I knew there was a traitor and I thought he was scummy.

We need to get a definition of crumbing here. Crumbing is where people can look at your posts without your guidance and draw conclusions. If I died and wasn't here, would you have ever pulled that I thought Nick was a traitor or that one even existed in this game? No. Ergo, to me, it isn't a crumb. Whereas with the cop one, I did essentially what Venmar did to Rachmarie last game. That was the basis of the idea in the first place and I knew enough of the players here had played Xenoblades to recognize it and an attempt to crumb. What I did was checking for myself. It affected my logical progression, not me hinting there was a traitor. If, however, you include crumbing to be something to verify you are a certain role for later review, I guess you could try and incorporate that. However, I did not concoiously go "I'm going to hint an Nick being a traitor here by taking this thought process" or even "This line of thought hints there might be a traitor".

Do you have a better way to assume than to follow the general trend? I don't. I used my role in conjunction with my knowledge to draw a conclusion about what traitor we were dealing with. If you have a way to tell me which roles we're dealing with every time, please tell me. Otherwise, stop nitpicking, that was the best I had to go on.

Again, Muffin. Are you saying you can tell me scum was on either wagon at the end of the day, both wagons or a single one? Yes, there is a higher chance and certainly some people on the Nick wagon are more than likely scum, but this is true with every wagon. I wouldn't be surprised if there was scum on the Rach wagon, nor should I be. That's why you can't just base it. The wagon started from the idea of a towny, and was formed by people I felt as town and hence I was comfortable with it. You're inferring that I take for granted the fact that scum do not know what bussing is, want to deal with the repercussion of a town flip and would rather not simply WK a townie? Sure, any AND all of these are possible.

But doesn't this go back to your last part and thus put you in contradiction? Part of the traitor's possibility is to have the scum team know a traitor is in the game. How do YOU know, then, that the scum team wasn't OFF the wagon assuming nick as the traitor? Can you really play that game of variables with me now, after the flip? No, not really. It isn't fair to me because OBVIOUSLY something somewhere was wrong with my logic, and inherently me defending it now does nothing but force me into areas where inevitably you can just say "Well, your logic was wrong here, here, here" or just plainly say it's wrong. Yes, it was. Is that indicative of anything? If it is, then what about every other mislynch that ever happens? In this game, at least one townie has to be wrong for a mislynch to occur and it leaves me in a particularly difficult position to argue back when the end answer is 'wrong'.

[Aj The Epic]

as a Bengals fan, I call dibs on biggest emotional roller coaster in football today

At least you get the highs of a football season. 4-12 Browns fan... (1/4 of the way there?)

But inquisitor isn't cop. It's a factional kill and alignment changer. Mason also doesn't make them both town.

Flavor isn't really indicative of roles... Look at Andrius' flip (I'm not quite sure what her role was, but it wasn't standard).

claim pgo
best cover for an investigative role

That is rather genius.

get this
my name is HAMMER
and im a supersaint

come at me

But again, supersaint is an incredible lylo role. Why would you want out now?

Hey muffin, while it isn't indicative of much: Remember when I said scum were really good at picking up breadcrumbs, and now with Mala as a scum role blocker, having role blocked me night 1? Yeah, I'm pretty certain they picked up on the claim.

[Aj The Epic]

@AJ: Waynegg's tenfold points against you (not just today, but D3 as well), why are you so sure there's a traitor in this game? Why do you keep insisting on it despite points that've been brought up that show there's no proof for it? Wouldn't 1-shot BP be the perfect claim for a traitor who converts to the scum-team when shot? You outright went for Mala and Rach's throats on D1, which would give them good incentive to want to NK you, too. I remember you trying to incite scum to target you on N1, but I don't recall any real crumbs towards BP. Can you show me them? Are you the traitor? What's your role? Full-claim.

Forgive me if I seem to have missed any and all of waynegg's 'points' against me. I really labeled him as a VI once he went off about the 'incriminate being too soft a word' bullshit. As for how I know, I've tried to be a blunt as possible, but apparently you've missed it. I was told that there was a traitor in this game. From who? Who knows. Figure that out yourself.

Why in the hell would I crumb BP? I crumbed cop, BP would be counterproductive. Mala already hinted that she 'jailkept' (Aka blocked) me night 1. I doubt this is a lie because she had a role and she tried to use it. It's easier to tell a half truth about where you went than an outright lie, so I stand by that she DID block me N1 and there was no reason for an absorbed bullet (all kills accounted for). Waynegg claims muttley took the shot n2. Why? Who the fuck knows. I can't imagine what was running through his head other than an affinity for shooting town.

My full claim still stands as it did yesterday: 1 shot bullet proof. The speculation was never speculation, it was fact. I tried to spell this out, you missed it. But I don't understand any of the votes, really. I understand the suspicion, but everyone seems to have lost their ability to put something coherent together against me. Muffin has been arguing logic with me for the past day and I've done my best to show what i saw. That's not a case and I don't expect anyone to skate by on that. At least put some conviction behind your cases.

Wayneg, you replaced into a town slot but damn, you've got some flaws in your work here. You're pushing around all these spontaneous reads with no reason for a change. Someone asks you why two people aren't suspicious to you anymore, you say "Because they aren't suspicious". That gives us a lot of ideas of what you're thinking. More importantly, the 'lynch Aj' campaign you're putting on has about as much thought as a third grade brainstorm tutor session. Your "Bro, andy, aj" read? Awful. Seriously, where does any of that make sense?

[Aj The Epic]

I dislike "full claims" because of the possibility of infringing on mod ruling. That said, I am Fei Fong Wong, bullet proof townie AKA Reincarnated Contact. My role gives good reason for me to believe that a traitor exists in this game.

3- My conviction is that I find your traitor reveal to be incredibly suspicious. Your activity has been pretty lurky, but it's clear that you understand a lot about this game. You've pushed two confirmed scum right out of the gate, too, which I've explained makes sense if you're a traitor that gets recruited on NK. I've also exposed that your BP claim (BP who doesn't know when his vest is used) also speaks towards the possibility of being a traitor recruited on NK. You could easily explain away a nokill at night. Your 'cop crumb' also speaks towards being a traitor, because it would give scum incentive to kill you WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY giving other cops reason to counter-claim and get exposed via that process. As I see it, your play fits the perfect traitor MO, which is why I'm not going to vote for anyone else until I get answers.

Lurking is a product of time here. When I'm on, I post. I pushed two scum out of the gate because I knew mala was scum. I started that wagon, and joined Rach when Thez and Mastin suggested to go for her first. Is it smart for me as a traitor to kill off what presumably is about half the scum team? Not really. Is there a no kill to be explained away that scum doesn't account for? No. Waynegg punched a hole in my bullet proof ability and he's all but confirmed town. Therefore, the bp claim which came after he said he shot me makes no sense as a 'cover up scum no night kill" thing as the claim was reaction to wayneg's statement. Did I realize there were two cops? No. I also left the crumbs subtle enough I thought anyone not looking for a night kill would glaze over it. Even then, nothing I said indicatively said "I'm cop", moreso than "I have an investigative role", giving less chance of a counter claim there. The claim was quoted yesterday, but I'll find it again here:

Apparently, however, you have enough support that unless I really wanted to ram this case down everyone's throat, I'm just wasting my time on you. I will be going for something more solid. But Mala, inwardly you have to know this isn't your town game.

(This was one of two, the other was a reference that apparently no one got... admittedly, it was deeper than is generally run in a crumb)

Lol FTL, had I crumbed traitor, I would've been lynched right then. Good job me.

[Aj The Epic]

the funny thing about the nacho wagon is it has none of {desp, aj, bro} on it, and of those three, only bro has expressed interest in it. the other two have been largely non-factors today.

Thanks for understanding that all the time I've had to dedicate to this game today has been trying to reveal I'm telling the truth about my claim. I'm on a very short schedule and I believe a vote without reason on the most major wagon is a cardinal sin.

[Aj The Epic]

Desp, I've always been trying to hint that I knew, but I was worried about infringing on any claiming rules and so I merely alluded to it as a possibility. I don't claim often (actually, almost never) so I'm out of touch with what's acceptable.

[Aj The Epic]

@AJ,

you have time to make relatively large posts, including posts where you give reads and spend time combing back over your iso to quote yourself, surely you have time to do other stuff.

besides i wasn't asking you to vote nacho, i was pointing out that you've completely avoided commenting on him or the wagon on him.

who are you thinking about voting today?

As you've alluded to, it's me or nacho today. So the question isn't so much who I plan to vote for, it's whether I believe nacho is scum. Really, my issue is I have too few targets now that Mala, Rach and Nick are gone. Nacho obviously isn't the last scum if he is scum, so where's the last one? Sunday is my first free day, so I plan on reading back through Mala's lynch to see any defenders and see if they had any ties in the Rach lynch. Until then, I'm rather scattered for time (my workload in college is unbelievable).

aj, i noticed you claimed bulletproof as arsonist and also claimed that you were trying to draw a kill through investigative claim
in slenderman where you were ACTUALLY bulletproof you did absolutely nothing of the sort
where were you trying to draw the kill there?

Slenderman was fucked up. Levi was a traitor who's role pm had a town wincon and we never believed him. Yates put through a fake claim early and somehow got away with it the whole game and we started the game with three VI's. The idea that I'd pull something there is weird. In the SK game, the cop claim as BP was meant to take down someone who was guilty reading me and could've easily been fake claiming.

I tried to draw a kill day 1, or did you just ignore that part of the discussion?

[Aj The Epic]

I think muffin was using interfere and affect interchangeably.

Desp, I've always been trying to hint that I knew, but I was worried about infringing on any claiming rules and so I merely alluded to it as a possibility. I don't claim often (actually, almost never) so I'm out of touch with what's acceptable.

If Wayne hadn't claimed his shot on you, how had you planned on approaching your role?

I'd sit on it quietly until there was an unexplained no-kill, wait for the first NKA and then claim.

Unvote
Vote: AJ

Not lynching Nacho and don't understand AJ's thought process re: BP = traitor.

How many times do I have to explain it? I was told, explicitly, with no room for error, that there was, beyond any reasonable doubt, a traitor in this very specific game.

[6] Andrius (Trust Fund,

Malakittens, RachMarie,

Faster Than Light

,

notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast

)
[6]

RachMarie

(

zMuffinMan

, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath,

Ghostlin

)
[2] BROseidon (

Sound of Silence

, Mac)
[2]

mastin2

(BROseidon,

nickthename

)

This has probably been the most important vote count all day. Let's spell it out:
Some quick facts: Notscience and Beauty will both end on Andrius. Mastin/Nick wagons rather irrelevant because most everyone important on them is already dead and/or confirmed town. The wagon momentum switched mainly due to Mollie finishing the imbalance.

Now, let's make some quick assumptions.
Let's assume Muffin town, FTL town, and Ghostlin town. Assume no scum because we're using this to help find. I'll mark assumptions blue. On a counterwagon drawn by scum, I would generally guess one more scum leaving TF. The last two are bussing. You've got to have insurance. Using confirmation bias, I'd say a good guess is two of Desp, Nacho, TD, TF are scum. I don't even know what TF has done recently, and nick was diehard on TD being town. Nacho was mastin's pick for an outside scum pick, and I completely agreed d1. I've never seen Nacho like this, but then again, I really don't play against him as much as I first assumed I did.

[Aj The Epic]

I'm game if we decide we like nick over rach.

Ill be here for the next few hours.

But I'd rather flash bro. He's lurking away the pressure.

So the first part of the 'avoid Rach' lynch going on here. Or maybe just a 'vote nick' campaign. Either or, there is general avoidance of RM.

Mmkay. VOTE: nick

And an easy, unexplained vote onto Nick. I checked and nothing around this post explains TF's thoughts on Nick. I think this was just when BnB were pushing "Everyone vote for Nick" and TF slipped right in.

To be noted, no vote made for mala day three, either. So 0-3 lynches for TF.

In no particular order within categories.

Town:

8. Mac (Neighborhood interactions)
9. mastin2 (Actions, townposting)
6. Faster Than Light (As nacho said last game, you can't fake this level of crazy bad gambiting)
14. notscience, Midori Uzuki (innocent child, duh)
19. Trust Fund (Because it's me)
21. zMuffinMan (Day one interactions with Rach, etc)
16. Mutleyddmc (Un CC'd vig in a confirmed single scum faction game)

Town reads find them town:

20. Venmar (per mastin)

Lean null-town:

2. Andrius (If he's softing what I think he's softing, needs to be confirmed before lylo)

Null:

4. BROseidon (Reaction to my little test was good, but ffery's reads are a thing I trust)
10. Nachomamma8 (Not nearly enough action, but I'm guilty of that too, and ffery townread 'em)

To Sort:

1. Aj The Epic (Need to ISO)
5. Desperado (Factor in new castle meta data of scumgame)
7. Ghostlin (I really should have a read here)
12. Malakittens (was leaning town, sunk)
18. TiphaineDeath (need to re-evaluate)

Look at how many feathers TF rustles here. None. There isn't even a scum list! "To Sort" really gives us insight. Especially when at least 3/4 of their town reads might as well have been confirmed.

Mod-confirmed to be town:

14. notscience, Midori Uzuki

8. Mac

18. TiphaineDeath

20. antihero

Town:
16. waynegg (vig in an assured single scumteam game)
19. Trust Fund (my role PM)
21. zMuffinMan (pushes over the past three days but mostly D1)
6. Faster Than Light (Varsoon has a hard time forcing this type of crazy as scum IMO)

Leftovers (3 scum be here)
1. Aj The Epic
2. Andrius
4. BROseidon
5. Desperado
7. Ghostlin
10. Nachomamma8

And here we go again. 4 confirmed, and then out of the 4 (3) remaining, two should be auto confirmed and one is TF. The only one remotely on a limb there is FTL, which really isn't that big a stretch. And the three scum in remaining? Hell, that isn't obvious... TF is scum.

[Aj The Epic]

why would a bulletproof be informed of a traitor role?
what is your flavor name and your real name, AJ?

I already fullclaimed today, Nacho. Are you even trying any more?

How many times do I have to explain it? I was told, explicitly, with no room for error, that there was, beyond any reasonable doubt, a traitor in this very specific game.

So the Traitor has already gone over then?

VOTE: AJ

Walk me through what here says "I know the traitor is on the scum side"

Varsoon, this is a trend and I'm not overly worried. People ALWAYS think this in large games and I have yet to shake it. I'm either ineffective or scummy, or sometimes both, to the rest of the game. I thought I had that beat day 1, but it's slowly crept back on me. This game is different in the fact that you're all questioning my claim. Read people's feelings before and after, their reads on me are ALL on this claim (with the exception of Muffin). I've been honest and that's all I can do about it.

[Aj The Epic]

why, when you full-claimed, did you not mention you were actually told explicitly with no room for error?

Because I'm not comfortable with claims. I read the rules before doing so and didn't see anything specific on what was considered infringing.

It's the only thing that makes sense where a supposed BP is told, in no unequivocal terms, that a Traitor exists in this game. I wast told there was a Traitor in this game. Was anybody else told there was a Traitor in this game? Stinks of something the informed minority might know, but other than that...

Let's try something...

@bork: would you be so kind as to spoiler a role or two in this game to me as well, other than mafia/scum, VT, and what's already flipped? Pretty please

I'm still not following. It's not like I asked for the information. If you're saying you're questioning why I got extra info, I'm the wrong guy to ask.