Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

[BROseidon]

I'm pleasantly surprised that there isn't a wagon on me for last game >.>

I don't think PGO-claim warrants a day 1 lynch. I'm pretty sure that I'd be inclined to day-1 claim PGO if I rolled it.

I want to see Varsoon posting.

pedit: Oh hey Varsoon

[BROseidon]

Wait is pappa a Bert alt?

[BROseidon]

Bro why would you assume that? Each game is randomized and its a very low chance that you are scum in BOTH games? Especially since this time its not multiball as per the OP.

Because RVS is arbitrary, so people could be like, "well, he was scum last game and won, so let's RVS here." It's as good of a reason as any.

[BROseidon]

I think it's relevant to point out that in Xenoblade TD buddied the fuck out of the miller claim, and he was scum then.

[BROseidon]

2) BRO's #79 makes no sense under a microscope. A miller and PGO are somewhat different roles and I don't consider the change-up to be alignment indicative.

Both are anti-town roles that can fuck with town PRs if they go unclaimed because town PRs target them.

Varsoon scum is looking more and more likely.

Agreed. Varsoon is being cogent.

pretty sure you are running away.

now answer the questions asked at you or be lynched. it's simple.

I don't recall you being this assertive anywhere else ever. Gonna note that here...

I'm pretty sure he gets to push whoever he wants. Why are you shutting that down?

Potential Ghost chainsaw for Mac noted.

(OOC: Whoa dude. I found that slightly offensive and I'm prone to call things fucking stupid. Could we not target players with something that's probably offensive to a fair amount of the subsection of this site?)

<3

nhammen your catchup post reminds me of an opening post from another game. Gonna keep an eye on you

notscience has elected to identify as

Midori Uzuki of the Nisan Alliance.

Why does everyone ever who rolls IC play it like an idiot. YES, WE ALL SAW YOUR OBVIOUS CRUMB, WHY DID YOU HAVE TO GO AND CONFIRM IT FOR SCUM.

I'd ask what the motivation for that was, but hell if it even matters.

I call it "dumb motivation." I added it to the list of motivations Nacho gave me after my newbie game.

TownMac, I think.

Nope. Slot is my strongest scumread right now.

Something other than oh he was scum last time please.

You do realize no one said that, right? Or did I miss that?

I'm like 50% convinced that Rach doesn't actually read games in any amount of detail >.>

Cause though I can see how that would look scummy, the fact we have a wagon build up this fast this early before everyone has even posted kinda sets up my scumdar a tad.

This is important. That TD wagon built faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast. That alone makes me think TD is town.

Okay 223 looks pretty town. Gonna need a bit more time to get a good read here, but I should have it eventually.

Nick is probably town.

Okay I'm really not getting why everyone is townreading Mac I he is in the null-scum range for me.

Also AJ's post looks like natural growth from Xenoblade. Going to tentatively townread the slot.

Strongest townreads right now are TD/Nick/AJ. Light scumread on nhammen, slightly stronger scumread on Mac. I do not recall him being this assertive in Xenoblade, or his other games that I've skimmed, and his push on TD went too far. He should have, at the very least, been worried about how quickly the votes came after his.

Also where the fuck is Nacho.

[BROseidon]

153 and the interactions with TD that follow. I remember your style being, "poke into conversations and ask insightful questions that can cause problems for scum."

pedit: I feel like you should know the answer to that question.

[BROseidon]

It's not just appealing to Logos. There are other things that I look for in your posting, and your last few posts seem to be coming from your town-self. I need more time to calibrate the read.

And holy fuck posts.

[BROseidon]

And the votes I'm thinking are the potential scum-votes on the TD wagon are Muffin, Mac, Ghost (++ to chances if Macscum), TF).

Wagons on town build faster than wagons on scum b/c scum are going to more quickly jump on a rolling wagon against a townie than one against scum. Scum tend to push anti-town/erratic behavior from those they know to be town very hard, hoping to get a mislynch there.

pedit: woohoo mollie is here <3

[BROseidon]

How the fuck was I opportunistic, stop discrediting a completely valid wagon

Which of the following do you think could be read as opportunistic:

1) Being the first person on a wagon.

2) Having a wagon reach 8 votes in a span of like 100 posts.

Why are you being defensive?

pedit: HOLY FUCK THAT WAGON TO FOR FUCKING EVER. SHE WAS CAUGHT FOR LIKE 2K POSTS.

[BROseidon]

pedit: HOLY FUCK THAT WAGON TO FOR FUCKING EVER. SHE WAS CAUGHT FOR LIKE 2K POSTS.

It built up quickly though, it took forever to get hammered.

I reread day 1.

So many times.

I was like the 6th person on that wagon after dancing around it for around 1k posts. It did not build anywhere remotely as quickly as TD's wagon here has. It's a degree of magnitude of difference.

[BROseidon]

GiF barely jumped on for horrible reasons and TD never jumped on. Only Orc and I were on it from the other team.

Which left 8 of the 11 necessary votes for town. Town votes take a while to get.

[BROseidon]

Yeah, FTL is scum.

I'm getting the opposite sense, actually.

[BROseidon]

I think the lack of text-walls from BRO is unsettling, but I'm usually used to more activity from him. BRO's contributions so far haven't pinged for me, but I'm skeptical of him.

Been at work, playing League (made Plat last night ), and asleep for the past 24 hours. Also, I'm trying to move away from massive wall-posting because some of my posts in Xenoblade seriously took 4+ hours with 10 pages spawning while I was walling.

pedit: Varsoon's tone. He's being more cogent than I'm used to, but the way in which he is doing it makes me think he's doing it from his town-self.

[BROseidon]

And the votes I'm thinking are the potential scum-votes on the TD wagon are Muffin, Mac, Ghost (++ to chances if Macscum), TF).

Are you done thinking yet?

Getting plat+ARAMs with friends+sleep>ISOing a bunch of people on day 1.

Will hopefully get to ISOing while I'm at work today, although I'm getting a less scummy feeling from muffinz and more from TF as I read through everything the first time.

[BROseidon]

Mac isn't a controversial read. Only you and TD are reading her as scum, and you're both wrong about it. If I need to go over why, I will later. Currently in the process of doing something else at the moment that requires much more of my attention.

As for FTL, the back-and-forth with the MS head is what gave me the town read, and again if I need to go into more detail, later.

...Ignores that I am also scumreading Mac.

The general ease with which people are handing out townreads is making me nervous, given that I abused the fuck out of that last game to coast to the win.

Now that I'm fully caught up, I would be down for wagoning Mac or Rach. I could easily want to wagon Mala depending on what she posts when she comes in.

VOTE: Mac

[BROseidon]

And nobody from the last game is going to be hyper-cognizant of their gameplay from last time and try to emulate it if they were town last time and scum this time.

Wait...

[BROseidon]

I am not seeing players replaying their previous town games so far.

Elaborate on this point.

[BROseidon]

I'm thinking about day 1 and I'm not seeing a lot of parallels in reactions to the negative utility PGO claim vs the first game's miller claim.

MS, Varsoon, Cabd, Ghostlin, Majiffy, and Nacho's 1 substantive post. None of them look like they are trying to reprise how they played early in Xeno 1.

1) You left out AJ and Mac.

2) First line is authentic, but second line is the second time I've caught a liar tell.

VOTE: SoS

[BROseidon]

And nobody from the last game is going to be hyper-cognizant of their gameplay from last time and try to emulate it if they were town last time and scum this time.

Wait...

I am

not seeing players replaying their previous town games so far. And there are quite a few players who weren't in the first Xeno game playing.

I'm not seeing players who were scum being all weird about that in this game. Except you. Maybe winning that game is the reason? I'm reluctant to ascribe your play so far to that, though.

I feel like

you are

kinda hyper-sensitive about Xeno 1 and don't look comfortable in this game at all so far.

MS, Varsoon, Cabd, Ghostlin, Majiffy, and Nacho's 1 substantive post. None of them look like

they are

trying to reprise how they played early in Xeno 1.

Bolded for people who need it.

[BROseidon]

Dude. Leaving out a few is not a liar tell. It's listing the players who have stood out based on my memory of their reactions to the PGO and the miller claims.

...read the next post.

Mala: http://liespotting.com/liespotting-basics/words/

[BROseidon]

Have you said anything interesting this game...?

Early townread on TD and early (and still one of the few) scumreads on Mac. Also seem to be against consensus on townreading FTL and Nick.

[BROseidon]

Also I was early on to the "nhammen is scum" thought.

So yeah, decent amount of interesting stuff in there.

[BROseidon]

Andy I have 0 understanding of your thought process in townreading me because you don't talk about why I'm town. We have a lot of differing reads, so it's certainly not a case of "his reads look good, must be town."

[BROseidon]

NS you forgot me calling you an idiot for playing IC wrong.

[BROseidon]

AtE. "Ugh every IC always does this ;-;" And shouldn't scum be looking for crumbs moreso than town?

I don't think you understand what AtE means...

Broseidon's tripping my gut as scum for some odd reason, but he's solidly town via his words.

Oh I'll be getting to this...

It's on me, because I'm waiting for someone to suggest a PL on me.

Why? You're going to get NK'd unless the scumteams thinks you're a complete moron.

SoS or TD is probably scum. I don't think both are.

TD is obvtown can you stop being obtuse.

Muffin's stance on TD, and the consistency of his Bro scumhunt, are both town motivated. Unlike Venmar's useless TD tunnel, Muffin's intentions are transparent and he lays his thought process out willfully.

Why is consistency town-motivated? Also, in the second quote of his you've posted, what is the town-motivation of stating theory that is wrong (his part about wagon-speed being null is just outright wrong).

I'm thinking at this point that BROseidon might be scum, from his iso. "Why? His words look so town!" Words, yes. A good scum player can create good words. Actions, on the other hand? Actions, I think make him scum. Macscumread, nicktownread, fakeish-looking reaction to IC, SoS scumread, general reads not seeming all too original (this may just be me, though), overall posting not screaming town even though the words themselves look town. Not much, but worrisome. (Basically: any individual sentence may look town, but their sum is less than their parts.)

Here we go!

You IIoA everything I do, except for the part where you talk about general reads not being too original. However, that ONE piece of analysis, the ONE USEFUL THING YOU DO in trying to discern my alignment, you get WRONG. I was first to call nhammen scum (if nhammen flips town whoever sheeped my read early on should be lynched btw, because the way in which that's proliferated makes me super uncomfortable). I was one of the first to call Mac scum. I am in the minority calling Nick town. I was one of the first to call TD town. Unless you define "not too original" as "holding contrarian views the entire game," you're explicitly wrong. This looks like a weak early push you can bring up later to try to force a mislynch on me.

What did you mean "no stahp, it's nhamm?" I rolled scum with him as the IC of my first newbie and his first two posts seemed in line with my experience. I'm disappointed he replaced out because I'm much less confident in my ability to read Mala.

Both of us having experience with scumnhammen and both of us reading his first post the same way assuages my worries about the read, though.

Desperado's

actually quite

worrying me. I'm

kinda

used to Desp being super-active as town and having strong reads on multiple players and a very strong will. Instead, I get a singular post which is spoilered and

rather

weak. It's mostly quotes (info) and barely laden with the analysis I'd expect

(Says the guy who's doing the same thing)[/b]. I'll

obviously

wait for more from him, but right now, he's a nullish-scumread of mine. :/

1) Use fewer words.

2) Stop hedging and emphasizing. Oh wait, scum love to do those things.

Mac iso:
Some specific posts

may be a bit

concerning, but overall, there's strong town posting present and I

really don't

think this is scuMac.

Malakittens iso:
She's not giving me

warm fuzzy

feelings. At all. This doesn't seem like the town-her that I've come to expect, like, at all. So again,

bit

of a scumread.

She replaced nhammen,

who is

next on my iso list. There's not much to really see, there. I

can't really

have anything definitive, other than a

bit of a gut scumread with his overall approach

.

Skull iso is

basically

empty, so nothing there at all. At this point with me

not really having any really strong townreads, might

be a scumread just by virtue of being a null-read.

Everything I've bolded is scummy (hedging, emphasizing, or failure to contract).

Could you elaborate on your nhammen read? Nhammen feels pretty null to me.

Also, you're voting SoS, and all you've said so far about her is a possible liar tell. So either you consider that one tell scummier than anything else so far this game, or there's more to that vote then you've said. Which is it?

His intro post reminded me a lot of his intro post in Inevitable Mafia, where he was scum. Generally taking non-stances and not pushing anything while appearing like he was engaging with the thread.

That vote was for town-multitasking. I think SoS is getting too many unjustified townreads, and that slot needs to be looked at seriously.

VOTE: Mastin

I am not letting this shit off the hook.

[BROseidon]

Haven't you been reading? I am a complete moron.

Please tell me what AtE is.

TD isn't too obvtown.

APPEAL to emotion.

AtE requires an APPEAL. Having an EMOTIONAL OUTBURST does not intrinsically mean APPEALING.

[BROseidon]

Ugh sorry for being busy today. This game got out of control and I'm bad at keeping up once that happens >.>

I have a catchup wall through around post 1000 (fucking MS hates me and stops letting me quote things). Here it is. If you respond to it, I still have like 8 pages or so to catch up on, so I might take a while to respond:


Catchup post time AKA “how long till MS stops keeping me logged in because I’ve quoted to many things:”

I agree with sound's assessment that bro looks uncomfortable but that post where he thinks he caught fery out on a liar tell is so batshit insane that I almost want to put him in the town category.

It’s like everyone forgot Xenoblade or something ☹

Consistency betrays earnestness which I find is difficult for scum to fake. It also makes the progression of his read transparent.

The second question is pretty loaded. What makes wagon speed alignment indicative?

But consistency is easy as fuck for scum to fake if they’re stealing it from other townies. Not sure if that’s what’s happening here, but it’s worth watching out for.

Wagon speed is alignment indicative because scum are more likely to push a wagon on town than on scum relative to the likeliness of town pushing one on scum. Unless you have bus-heavy scum, but then you can look for the busser.

I feel his town play has far, far outweighed his scum play.

What is the town play in so aggressively trying to push through a wagon within the first 200 posts on someone who looked town, exactly? This is the part of the argument I don’t get. Mac’s push on TD was scummy as fuck.

FTL townread is good. Nick one is probably good as well, but I'd love to hear your reasoning for it.

His play reminds me of the newbie we all had together, in terms of how he tunnels aggressively regardless of the relevance of the target, and his general disposition in how he argues. That he’s going after people and willing to be abrasive indicates a town-mindset of pushing things through and finding scum over a scum mindset of blending in and not getting singled out.

Also going to point out that Nacho’s 832 feels like his play as my IC more than his play in Xeno, and he was town in both of those. Slightly townreading that post.

Because generally when I have a scum read, I want them dead. Now, mods for some silly reason don't give me the power to vote all my scum reads at once, most games.

You don’t want to solidify reads? The eff?

Remind me to take you far in games where I’m scum.

Mac’s 855-858 read pretty town (moreso the last few). Gonna table this read for now, I’ll return to it in a bit.

Btw nothing Mala is posting is making me feel good about that slot. She’s posting a lot of null and nhammen posted scummy so…

Ugh I’m thinking Varsoon is scum but he’s not making this read easy. He’s playing in an awkward place where he’s not being nearly as crazy/abrasive as I’ve seen him as town, but he’s not being as cooperative as he was in C&H.

BROseiden- I like his notes regarding ghostlin, a player most people seem to have overlooked

Note his towny notation of the fact that nobody is talking about Ghost.

Re muffins 879: Thing that triggered you as scummy was that you jumped on the TD wagon that was bad. However, of the people who jumped on, you did so a way that was less bad. The Mac scumread came mostly from the tone that he had towards the end of his TD questioning: it sounded less like he was trying to discern TD’s alignment and more like he was trying to bully TD into a position to get lynched. Mac’s recent posts have been more townie, though.

Mastin: My reading of you has nothing to do with preconceived notions of you. I’ve barely interacted with you ever. My read of you comes mostly from what you’ve posted with a little bit from the fact that you’re verbosity drives me insane.

And now we reach the part where MS doesn’t keep me logged in. Joy…

well I was just thinking about bro and was wondering if I should him down to unsure. I was back to wondering if the uncertainty is more of an uncomfortableness since he was scum who won in the last game and he is paranoid people are going to scrutinise everything he does. he hasn't followed up with "I caught sound in a liar tell!" so that is a little worrying.

I haven’t really posted since then, SoS hasn’t really been posting, nothing they’ve posted has stuck out as particularly town or scum (although the fact that ffery is so low volume is strange and I makes me want to revoke the read, since she’s not spamming up the thread and making it hard to read).

SoS points a read list with no explanations for anything. Useful…

Explanation on Nick makes me feel less bad about the slot, since I’d assume ffery is referring to the same game that I am.

So mastin has a “super secret theory.” Woohoo, useful >:C

Don’t like TF saying “I agree with these reads almost perfectly”

[BROseidon]

@mod V/LA through Monday evening. I'm going out of town for the weekend

Will try to catch up tonight before I pack, but I make no promises.

[BROseidon]

Okay, I'm back. Going to try to catch up as quickly as possible, but this'll probably be the last game I catch up on because holy fuck pages.

[BROseidon]

So there were 24 pages from after I went V/LA.

And I was already behind when I went V/LA like 8 pages.

I apologize in advance for not being caught up probably until N1 or D2.

[BROseidon]

who was your strongest townread?

TD.

[BROseidon]

His response to Venmar felt town motivated both without knowledge of his meta as well as in comparison to how he responded to MS in Xenoblade.

[BROseidon]

Could you explain that?

Ugh I don't want to dig through everything in both games...

Basically he didn't just blatantly OMGUS and deathtunnel the person on him. His posting tone was also more aggressive and angry, and his posts were generally shorter and more frequent.

[BROseidon]

funny, venny said that td has a lurkish meta

In Xeno TD was fairly lurky, and in C&H (where he was town) he was more active. That's the extent of my finished games with him.

[BROseidon]

I see. Is there a reason why you need to be fully caught up before you can put your vote somewhere useful?

I don't know what is a useful vote right now.

Mac: His vote on you had solid trajectory, unlike his MS push last time around.

[BROseidon]

His vote on you had solid trajectory,

Hmmm?

I've already stated that I felt Mac's push on TD was scummy as fuck.

[BROseidon]

Starting from post 135:

Mac votes TD after asking TD a few questions about his response to the PGO claim.

TD expresses aggressive AtE-style frustration about getting wagoned, states that he is "tired."

Mac's 150 tries to corral TD back in for more questioning, despite TD having stated that he is tired and frustrated.

Mac continues to press TD very aggressively and hostilely to answer his "question" that is more of a loaded statement than an actual question. This is what TD first hones in on as something off with Mac's attack. TD calls out Mac for being "overeager scum" (same impression I had of Mac at this point).

Mac tries to call out TD for soft-pushing Venmar, which was a blatant misrep. TD calls Mac out on misrep.

Mac gets into tiff with Nick because Nick calls Mac out for 217. Nick's 232 in particular is a very strong post against Mac. In 245 Mac tries to wiggle out by implying that TD wanted Venmar policy lynched DESPITE THE FACT THAT TD NEVER VOTED VENMAR.

And then the interaction is done and Mac and I get into a tiff because I call him out for being scummy in that interaction.

the tl;dr of the trajectory is that TD gets early pressure, and finds Mac trying to push through the lynch too aggressively, and Mac misreps information/makes stuff up in an attempt to get the lynch through. Mac's push in particular, more so than anyone else on that wagon, was overreaching and trying too hard to get the lynch.

[BROseidon]

Ugh, prodded.

Have barely touched this game because fuck reading like 40 pages >:C

[BROseidon]

VOTE: rach

[BROseidon]

So it's scummy to let town stall out to a no-lynch>?

Got it.

[BROseidon]

Err, not let town stall out to a no-lynch.

Typing >.>

[BROseidon]

Catchup post time. You can ignore everything about SOS being scummy >.>

Catchup from where I went V/LA:

1397- Desp misrep of Venmar is awkward as balls. Desp also throws some pressure at Rach, but the pressure looks a bit awkward for some reason.

1398- Wow that post is horrible. I find that Rach tends to have some scumhunting in her flufftastic posts when she has scum to hunt, but when she doesn’t have scum to hunt she can’t fake it very well. Defending Rach on her meta does not look good here.

1400- Very townie post from Thez slot.

1411- I’m super wary of this post now that Rach has flipped scum. This is a super easy place for Rach to have been coached pregame. Given the caliber of players in this game, I would expect something like this to have happened.

1415- Still think Rach could have been coached through it.

1417- Our conftown manages to make a huge part of the town still want to lynch/vig him >:C

1419- Wow, a cogent NS post that makes sense. If Rach wasn’t coached to scumread/nullread her buddies, NS is probably on the right track.

1428- Bad post is bad.

1430- Thez slot is the most town thing in this game holy fuck.

1435- I wish you would push things because the few posts leading up to this put me on the same page. Rach+SOS+Nacho+Mala looking like a pretty good hypothesis at this point.

1436- Syry you are seriously like my favorite player ever. Where do you find all these gifs?

1445- If Nacho flips scum one of bnb/SOS is basically confscum from this post, as far as I’m concerned.

From votecount 1.10:

[6] Andrius (BeautyAndTheBeast, Sound of Silence, notscience, Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie)
[6] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Faster Than Light, thezmon221, TiphaineDeath)

Given that Rach flipped scum and Andy is most likely town as a result, I would guess 1-2 buddies on the Andy wagon with 0-1 on the Rach wagon (Muffin or FTL might be a bus. Andy, TD, Desp, and Thez are all town as fuck).

1458- Ooh an AJ post. This post is insanely town. Like, 150-200% town.

1462- This continues to look more like town Mac.

1465- So incredibly bad that I want to call you scum, but it could just be being horribly wrong.

1467- That post looks like it came from town-Ghost, although my experience is still relatively limited with him.

1481- There are a lot of words I’d use to describe Orc, and “nice” isn’t one of them. <3 him, though.

1485- “If you are town this game I am very impressed.” <–Did this ping like crazy to anyone else, because the awkward as balls question+double failure to contract makes me want to lynch with fire. Also wow this post is literally going after every soft target he can find. Oh yeah, scum Nacho=town Skull.

1495- “We conveniently have hydra dissonance over the scum please let us ‘resolve’ it while we lynch someone who is town.” >:C

1504- Okay this is horrible. Town read revoked. Never let anyone coast on the promise of content later >:C

1509- lol. Venmar looks sort of bad here and for his next several posts, but it doesn’t fit into the theory I’m building. Gonna keep tabs on this one.

1521- Why were people consistently going “Are you scum with Andy” when scum with Rach was an equally strong link? A bunch of people scumreading Andy made that connection, but nobody scumreading Rach seemed to make that push. Makes me think Nacho is maybe town and that I need to step back again.

1529- Okay I’ll drop Nacho scum and push Venmar scum instead. Venmar be lookin’ horribad.

1535- Appeal to authority about something that is wrong? If you are town, I’m just gonna quote this post-game and laugh at how wrong it is.

1538- “I'm still watching. I'm not sure BRO would feel uncomfortable wearing the Xenoblade recent win cloak as scum at all.” Strange thing to post given that your last comment about me was calling my misrep of SoS’s post count “scummy.”

1547- Quote followed the stuff about me back a bit and read a bit into the area that I missed. 1158 is a strange rep of my game. Not gonna talk about it now because lol self-meta, but someone remind me to talk about this post-game.

1587- I’m sorry I ever called you scum. 10/10 would read again. Disagree with the Andy scumread, though, if for no other reasons than wagon (and Nick for that matter fits awkwardly in there. I don’t think it’s mathematically possible for all 3 of the day-ending wagons to be scum unless scum super-bus each other. You get 2/3, maybe, but even that I’m dubious to jump on).

1588- That is actually the best way to scumhunt, imo. Mafia is about trying to construct the narrative of the actions scum take, and that is often easiest to see by looking at the links between players over the individual actions of any singular player. That Mastin can juggle that all during day 1 and piece together a narrative like that is scary impressive.

1592- I think you’re wrong about Andy, still. Well made argument, though.

1598- No, we are not arguing “omg we might lose a strong player if we mislynch.” We can’t afford to make that argument this game, at all. The entire player list is made up of insanely strong players.

1608- That list is horrible. It’s too shitty of a list to come from scum >.>

1613- Then you adjust the narrative, try to use the new information from the later days to reconstruct the flow of the game.

1617- You mean days 2 and 4. Rach was the day 3 lynch. Also that Varsoon lynch was horrible and it was a pleasure to push it as scum with Orc.

1623- 10/10 would read this post again.

1639- Brb lynching Mala and then lynching you if she flips scum. Seriously, the self meta+WIFOM in here is disgusting.

1691- What does Nacho’s response tell you about how he wants to approach this game?

1700- Thank you for the tl;dr. I’m not reading that shit right now. If you are scum, 10/10 you deserve a scummy or something for that amount of effort.

1721- Dance around 1700 much? Holy fuck dude…

1738- You forgot me in your read list ☹

1770- And then you called lurker-bro scum-bro at the end of the day? You only get so much town-equity from the Bank of BROseidon for 10k word posts. You can burn through all of it.

1835- For being the single player with the most experience with me on-site, you are being really soft in how you’re reading me. Soft-Nacho is boring, and probably scum.

1838- Maybe you should notice something from this…

1858- This is how you read someone. Even if it involves being wrong.

1873- There are not enough l’s and o’s to articulate my response to this post.

1898- >:C

1918- I want you to be scum so bad, but then you post shit like this.

Mut and Saki are both probably town that was the dumbest pissing match I’ve ever read.

1971- Eh, at least you’ve explained why you have jack for a read on me.

2025- Still need more l’s and o’s.

2089- Good point, but Rach flipped scum.

2108- The post of mine you linked had plenty of content. Lrn2notdeathtunnel.

2112- Oh look what Rach flipped how sad for my read on you now…

2225- Except I put in that effort in Xenoblade… I STAYED UP UNTIL 4AM WHEN I HAD A 9AM CLASS TYPING CATCHUP POSTS IN THAT GAME A WEEK BEFORE FINALS PERIOD. HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY COMMITMENT TO PLAYING AN AWESOME SCUMGAME.

2248- It concerns me mildly that Andy townread me that strongly, especially when everyone else is either “OMG SCUM MUST LYNCH” or “leaning town but not really sure.”

2291- I feel great for stealing Saki’s hammer ^_^

Oh yeah btw Andy is super town here.

2310- I still need more l’s and o’s.

2322- And yet I’m the one who hammered the scum four hours before deadline ^_^ (we’ll ignore FTL showing up as a 12th vote)

Okay I’m just being a dick about this now. #sorrynotsorry.

Lol @ nick dancing around the wagons. Okay one of BnB or Nick is definitely scum at this point. I don’t see this not being the case.

2454- Still not enough l’s and o’s.

2463- This is what I was referring to in my note earlier on MS’s inconsistency.

[BROseidon]

Btw totes think the lynch should be Mala or Nacho today.

VOTE: Mala

[BROseidon]

1) Did not know post tags were a thing. I always used [url=] to link to posts.

2) First response was not IIOA, it was theory discussion. I do this a lot.
Second response is an early read. Early reads tend not to be very strong, and I'm willing to admit that (unlike most people on this site, I am not confident in my ability to absolutely peg someone after 3 posts)
Third and fourth are building an early hypothesis about Mac-scum paired with Ghostlin. You know, the sort of ground work to the output that Mastin had day 1.
Fifth is an oblique reference to having caught out nhammen's scumgame before, and thinking that he may be scum again.
Sixth is me being angry because I want to roll IC, and it pisses me off that the VI got it this game.
Seventh was a discussion about something. I forget what and don't want to dig right now.
You're repped my 8th quote correctly. Good job
Ninth one is fluffy.
Rest I'll somewhat agree with.

I think what you're cueing in on is the fact that I still don't really know how to scumhunt well; if given the choice I prefer to sit back and churn out reads (ie, do what I did last night and read an entire day phase). I do have a 6-2 town record on site, though, and that's from being pretty good at reading game states.

Read list incoming.

pedit: Andy you need to drop that townread on Nacho and actually look at his play.

[BROseidon]

IC-tier town:

NS

Town:

AJ
Desp
Ghost
Mastin
Muffin
TD
Andrius (weakest one here)

Probs town (not currently in working scum-team theory, but make sense in alternative theories):

Mac
FTL
Mutt
TF

Scum:

Mala
Nacho
BnB/Nick (leaning towards BnB right now for trying to derail Rach lynch)
Venmar (replacing SOS, who would have been here had they not died)

[BROseidon]

Only reason you're weaker is because of how much work the others did earlier in getting Rach lynched.

Except for TD. He's there because I liked the response to his wagon (still don't get how others didn't) and the fact that he is so atrociously off my reads that I don't think could be scum.

pedit: Saki probably got vigged which was dumb because while I get that Saki is a spammy and generally meh poster, thez towned up that slot so incredibly hard that it was pretty obvtown.

[BROseidon]

Mala is alive...

[BROseidon]

^

[BROseidon]

Nick, I don't understand what you're asking.

[BROseidon]

And it didn't strike you as odd that I was voting for the person you thought was dead?

Also holy fuck I'm going to be the AJ of this game. Remember, when I flip town to ACTUALLY LOOK AT MY READS BECAUSE HOLY FUCK AJ'S READS WERE GOOD LAST TIME AND I WAS SO PLEASED WHEN EVERYONE IGNORED THEM.

[BROseidon]

Also, you started the Rach wagon and then tried to derail it when you saw the opportunity. Hard bus+avoid bus when other option opens up, perhaps?

[BROseidon]

2519 is to BnB

[BROseidon]

Mala or Bro should be the lynch today.

I agree with 50% of what you've said.

This is a higher percentage than usual.

[BROseidon]

....Why does no one ever believe me X_X?

Because when I read your read list last night I thought to myself, "that's completely not what I'm seeing."

[BROseidon]

I work with my town reads. sound was town reading rach, I however was not but I was willing to work them on someone we were reading as scum. that is how teamwork works. andy town telled. we went back on rach. that is what happened.

that you are trying to paint this as scummy is laughable and downright ridiculous.

You're missing the part where you tried to completely derail the Rach wagon to flash-wagon Nick. You know, the actual core of my argument. You didn't just jump back.

[BROseidon]

Nacho was being waffle-ey as fuck on me.

How is that not suspicious.

HOW IS THAT NOT SUSPICIOUS. HE HAS THE MOST EXPERIENCE PLAYING WITH ME OF ANYONE ON THIS SITE (Other than PA's off-site meta with me that is largely moot), AND HE COULDN'T FUCKING FORMULATE A DECENT READ ON ME DAY 1 WHEN MOST PEOPLE WERE BEING AT LEAST MODERATELY DECISIVE IN HOW THEY WERE READING ME.

[BROseidon]

AND NACHO WAS FUCKING PROTECTING RACH.

HOLY FUCK MOLLIE I DON'T THINK YOU CAN BE THIS OBTUSE ABOUT IT.

[BROseidon]

here are your interactions with rach + the hammer vote

And there are plenty of other players with whom I've had that level of interaction. I went V/LA and then didn't bother catching up for most of the dayphase. I only hammered because I didn't trust that it'd get done before the deadline, and lynching town is still better than a NL.

pedit: HOLY FUCK I SAID I THINK ONE OF YOU IS SCUM. YOU MADE A GOOD CASE AGAINST HIM, BUT THE CONTEXT OF THAT CASE (BEING COUNTER TO THE RACH WAGON) MAKES ME EYE IT SUSPICIOUSLY. YOU WOULD KNOW HER ALIGNMENT IF YOU'RE HER PARTNER, WHICH IS, Y'KNOW, WHAT I'M SAYING IS PLAUSIBLE. YOU SEEM TO BE FAILING TO UNDERSTAND HOW I AM VIEWING THIS GAME: SCUM KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. SCUM TRY TO CONSTRUCT A NARRATIVE THAT LEADS TO THEIR WIN. TOWN'S JOB IS TO FIGURE OUT THIS NARRATIVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE SCUM ARE. YOU AND NICK BOTH MAKE SENSE BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED, DEPENDING ON WHICH OF TWO VERY LIKELY NARRATIVES WAS IN PLAY.

GET OFF YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUS "I'M RIGHT" HORSE FOR ONCE AND ACTUALLY ENGAGE WITH WHAT I AM SAYING.

[BROseidon]

yes nacho was fully protecting rach by voting her and pushing her wagon it all makes sense now

Nacho was late to the wagon.

[BROseidon]

Rach's earlier posting felt weak to me; it seemed like she was almost excessively lost and playing it up a bit to excuse a lack of any sort of content. But then there was a nice sort of progression of frustration that started out with a couple of apologies here and there but nothing overdone to the more recent post which hit that genuine vibe that I sometimes get from frustration very nicely. So I'm leaning town at the moment; not convinced, especially since my rach reading game has been pretty sub par as of late, but still leaning town.

This paragraph is relevant as fuck here, btw.

[BROseidon]

don't worry baby they're all town (except not completely RACH but shhhh)

Followed by this gem.

[BROseidon]

"I scumread her enough at the start to vote her but now think she might be town but let me distance more."

[BROseidon]

BRO POSTING IN ALL CAPS TO SEEM LIKE AN ENRAGED TOWNIE IS FUNNY AS FUCK

I LIKE WHAT YOU'RE POSTING.

In all seriousness, I can't even rage without it coming across as emotionally disengaged

[BROseidon]

Nacho: Refer to above image. I'm thinking 50-65% chance.

The main issue I'm having is that I read through everything last night, and it felt like you were not pushing for Rach nearly as hard as town-you normally would. The fact that you townread her early stuck with me MORE than the fact that you were on the wagon and supporting it in the end; I attribute the Rach push to Muffin/Thez/Desp. Not to you.

That's not what I'd expect from you.

There's also the whole issue of your interactions with Venmar, who had disgusting interactions with Rach.

Maybe a Venmar lynch first would be good...

Naw still want Mala's head on a platter. Nhammen's first post pinged and Mala's done jack to alleviate that since then.

[BROseidon]

Fuck, I thought I answered that.

I did not receive anything last night. Checked my email notifications of PMs to make sure I didn't accidentally delete the PM, and I got no PMs from Bork between the 24th (my prod) and today (day start PM)

[BROseidon]

it makes sense from your viewpoint cos you are scum. if you had spent the better part of the d1 engaging with people you would actually know what was going on. but you didn't and if you think you can waltz in to this day round after your main antagonist is dead and push really shitty cases you are wrong.

You realize I primarily work through reading other people's interactions/rereading, right?

[BROseidon]

EARLY WAFFLEY PROTECT INTO BUS.

HOW ABOUT THAT.

[BROseidon]

Also Cabd come back here I want to work with someone that will actually listen to me.

I have no idea what you tried to send me last night, but it didn't go through.

[BROseidon]

Considering how little you posted day 1, that one post was fairly substantive.

pedit: Part of me wants to get lynched now just to knock you off your high-horse, but that doesn't help town.

And I'm not sucking up to AJ. I'm just pointing out that last time around, nobody was willing to accept that he might be town with valid opinions, and it ended up helping me win.

Sort of like you're doing now.

[BROseidon]

^mollie, take note. THAT is how you engage with someone. I can understand why ffery hates playing with you; you become incredibly bull-ish and seem completely unwilling to work with anyone outside of a specific set of players. Pretty sure mastin's made a post about this...

Nacho, here is the issue that I have with the big picture:

1) Early read on Rach.
2) Waffle on Rach
3) Push onto Skull/Mutt, which was initiated in the same post where you threw shade on a few other "soft" targets (myself included). This push looks opportunistic as fuck, because it looks like scum trying to push through an easy early lynch.
4) Jump back to Rach, relatively passive play.
5) Super-protect on Andy.

The waffley-ness on Rach is somewhat troublesome, but so is the push on Skull/Mutt. Skull/Mutt was not a good push. They weren't doing anything; the slot was incredibly null. Why would you go onto that push OVER Rach, who was being incredibly scummy throughout the day?

Also, why are you bringing up the fact that you've had a bad run of reading Rach when discussing your tenativeness to read her as scum early, but you aren't saying the same about me? Last I checked, you've misread me in 3 of our most recent games together (Fire and Ice, Xenoblade, and Jobpick where you thought I was scum even though you were scum yourself).

Also, Nacho, this image indicates that I'm not alone in this sentiment:

...............Andrius
..................|
Mala-Rach-Nacho
...|.......|
...|---Venmar

[BROseidon]

pedit: Cabd maybe you got blocked or redirected? I'll pm Bork asking if I should have received anything...

[BROseidon]

Also, Mollie, you pretty much asked everyone else about RW, but I don't recall those questions being directed at me.

I wasn't looking at the thread except for vote counts/timer, since I was engaging with other games and really didn't want to spend 2.5 hours sludging through everything, only for ffery/gif to use their prestige to push my lynch through anyways.

[BROseidon]

I have asked for feedback on bro about rw

nacho, cabd, mac and yeah metal was in that game too! can you guyz plz answer this?

This is 0% directed at me, btw.

[BROseidon]

I didn't get a pm regarding anything. I pm'd bork asking if this is the case.

If you do have some sort of modding-type thing, pm him asking when the recipient receives it? I might get notified at the start of night 2 or something wonky like that.

[BROseidon]

Err, first line should read "I pm'd him asking if this is correct."

[BROseidon]

That was fast.

Bork stated everything is as it should be.

[BROseidon]

and for the record, what you posted right there just made me sad and will probably break a 3 year friendship that was seriously on a thin rope. whatever your alignment, I hope that what you thought you gained from that comment was worth it.

and for the record, it would not be the first time that scum used fery and I's strife as a way to discredit me. you know what makes me sad about this? she provides them with the ammo. which of course makes sense since she is dead and can't say anything about it.

I do not intend to hurt yours and ffery's friendship in any way, and I apologize if my comment does this in any way. It's just incredibly frustrating that you refuse to engage with your scumreads in any meaningful way because of how convinced you get they are scum. You don't take a nuanced, probabilistic approach to the game. Notice how I've scumread Nacho, but I'm still willing to engage with him to develop the read further. Why? Because I might be wrong. It happens.

[BROseidon]

wrt the bold: that kind of contradicts your declarative statement earlier that nacho can read super duper well, yeah?

My point is that he didn't bring it up with me. He brought it up with Rach. He also gave a more committal read on Rach (which I can write off to her being more present in the thread).

[BROseidon]

Ugh Nacho now I want to start talking about other games but I don't think it's actually a productive conversation to have.

I like your response though. Don't have anything I want to immediately follow it up with, except that I disagree on Skull: Skull has a fairly small opus of games iirc. That means that "meta" is going to be fairly useless with that player. New players tend to have hugely mobile metas. Fuck, I'm pretty sure anyone who wants to do an in-depth meta dive of me is in for a headache trying to figure out a consistent pattern of town play for me.

[BROseidon]

you were never around in the game when you were around

I'm going to assume you just mean "you were never around when I was asking."

Which then leads to: Why did you now say that you were trying to engage with me with that stuff?

pedit: not enough l's and o's

[BROseidon]

2519 is to BnB

I work with my town reads. sound was town reading rach, I however was not but I was willing to work them on someone we were reading as scum. that is how teamwork

works

. andy town telled. we went back on rach. that is what happened.

that you are trying to paint this as scummy is laughable and downright ridiculous.

Discrediting not through counterpoint but through AtE.

the other person whom you think is scum?

are you for realz coming at me with this weak shit?

you can talk about derails until the fucking cows comes but the truth is I had no way of rach's alignment and I had very strong town read and the other head of this hydra saying she was town. I had to compromise somewhere. period. end of story.

No attempt to understand what my argument actually was.

it makes sense from your viewpoint cos you are scum. if you had spent the better part of the d1 engaging with people you would actually know what was going on. but you didn't and if you think you can waltz in to this day round after your main antagonist is dead and push really shitty cases you are wrong.

Aggressive tone.

Nacho: Refer to above image. I'm thinking 50-65% chance.

The main issue I'm having is that I read through everything last night, and it felt like you were not pushing for Rach nearly as hard as town-you normally would. The fact that you townread her early stuck with me MORE than the fact that you were on the wagon and supporting it in the end; I attribute the Rach push to

Muffin/Thez/Desp

. Not to you.

That's not what I'd expect from you.

There's also the whole issue of your interactions with Venmar, who had disgusting interactions with Rach.

Maybe a Venmar lynch first would be good...

lol.

Outright dismissal.

Here’s the problem I’m having right now with how your engaging with me. You’re not just being aggressive, you’re also being a bit mean (and I admit that I’m not being particularly nice back). Being on the receiving end of it feels less like you think I’m scum and want me lynched, and more like you think I’m scum, want me lynched, and want me to feel bad about it.

Also:

I have been engaging you. what you are providing is a shitty case, a bunch of sledge that tbh breaks my fucking heart and as strong of a confbias as you are accusing me of. I am following up on a dead town's read.

You have nowhere articulated any scum-motivation why my case is shitty, though. All you’ve done is said “your case is bad. SCUM!” Town get things wrong. I think TD’s completely off the mark; doesn’t mean I think he’s scum. Everything you’ve said is positional; none of it actually talks about interests.

[BROseidon]

That nick vote into unvote is awkward as fuck, btw.

[BROseidon]

Skull has a fairly small opus of games iirc.

I only need three transparent town games in order to form a good town baseline, sometimes only two. Skull is one of those transparent town people.

I feel like this is dangerous logic, btw.

[BROseidon]

Here’s the problem I’m having right now with how your engaging with me. You’re not just being aggressive, you’re also being a bit mean (and I admit that I’m not being particularly nice back). Being on the receiving end of it feels less like you think I’m scum and want me lynched, and more like you think I’m scum, want me lynched, and want me to feel bad about it.

do you feel bad about it?

You have nowhere articulated any scum-motivation why my case is shitty, though. All you’ve done is said “your case is bad. SCUM!” Town get things wrong. I think TD’s completely off the mark; doesn’t mean I think he’s scum. Everything you’ve said is positional; none of it actually talks about interests.

I did articulate why I thought your case was scum motivated. like several times.

when you say "positional" and "interests", could you elaborate so that I am on the same page with what you are saying?

1) Yes, I feel bad. I shouldn't have made that comment.

2) Re-articulate the scum-motivation, because I am recalling 0 of it beyond "you are pushing for bad lynches" (which is weak considering that town do that by virtue of being wrong).

3) Eh, sorry for using business-ey terms, comes with dating a consultant >.>

Position roughly equates to the what. It's basically the face-value of what people say in thread. Ie BnB thinks Bro is scum is a position. Bro thinks one of BnB/Nick is scum is a position. Interest roughly equates to why. At a high level, town interest breaks down into finding scum and finding other town. Scum interest is gaining a majority. The entire game of mafia is really predicated around using people's positions and phrasings to try to figure out their interests.

[BROseidon]

Cabd let me answer questions directed to me >:C

Also going to look something up quickly brb.

[BROseidon]

Got it:

Nick never calls me scum at all day 1, then this weird thing with TF happens and he's voting on me. That lack of trajectory contributes to the awkwardness (y'know, in addition to what Cabd said)

[BROseidon]

I have to look at Bro's list, but I feel like some of the reads are either OMGUSY-worthy or just blech on Bro's part. Least he can do is explain some of them.

I did. When I was reading yesterday, a Rach/Nacho/SOS/BnBorNick/Mala team made a lot of sense based on interactions within the group. Now that SoS has flipped town, I'm rethinking parts of the theory. Shoving Venmar in still makes some degree of sense, but it's not as cohesive.

Nacho did well discussing why he had the position he did re: Rach– I'm probably not going to pursue Nacho anymore today; he's in the reserve for alternative narratives. Venmar's approach to the Rach wagon was still particularly horrible, and you've been pretty bad all game. Complaining that people wanted to PL Rach to derail her lynch when she's scum is bad both in this game specifically and at a meta level (rewarding Rach's scum game because she doesn't engage as town is not behavior that we should be encouraging). In this game, Rach was distinctly doing things that were scummy AND FIT HER SCUM META. That's key. Other people picked up on the fact that Rach was playing TO HER SCUM META, but you tried to push it as "oh no this is just a PL."

Nick's awkward jump onto and then off of my wagon makes me want to go to a scumgroup of Rach/Ven/Mala/Nick for now, and work out from there to find any other scum. Ugh, wish I had time to quad-ISO (also fuck this site for only being able to run 3 ISOs in a single tab).

[BROseidon]

Mac: the difference is that Cabd considered the same things I did (and that I posted in thread). A number of things could have happened to fuck with the results. Nick ignores that possibility that other PRs fucked with things and tried to set up a lynch off it, despite the fact that we'd talked about it in thread. That's a weak position with a scum interest.

Also, what do you think with my interactions with Mala (and nhammen)?

[BROseidon]

are you asking me to look at your interactions with mala and nhammen? cos I'm not really sure what you mean

Yes.

[BROseidon]

Also, I lied. So there's that~

Can we link Varsoon to this game after it's done to demonstrate how to properly execute a reaction test?

[BROseidon]

are you asking me to look at your interactions with mala and nhammen? cos I'm not really sure what you mean

Yes.

why are you asking me to do that

Because I'm trying to gauge the narrative that you're constructing about who is scum and why.

aka the fact that you are scumreading both Mala and me is strange as balls unless you think we're cross-bussing hard and that I've been bussing since before she was in the game.

pedit: Doh >.>

[BROseidon]

HEY VARSOON LOOK AT CABD'S REACTION TEST.

IT'S A REALLY GOOD REACTION TEST.

YOU SHOULD DO THEM MORE LIKE THAT.

[BROseidon]

And nick is maybe scum going for the double town lynch setup.

What do you think of my Rach/Nick/Mala/Venmar theory?

Also Mac 10/10 would read that post again.

[BROseidon]

And Jiffy manages to piss me off more than mollie was >:C

I'M SORRY THAT YOU FIND ME DUMB FOR CONSIDERING POSSIBILITIES AND PLAYING AROUND WITH THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE SCUM /sarcasm

Varsoon what do you not like about Andy and by how much does it outweigh him being the wagon choice vs. Rach yesterday?

[BROseidon]

If I was trying to derail the Rach lynch I would have unvoted. I wasn't willing to move my vote until support TO LYNCH NICK was UNQUESTIONABLY PRESENT.
Aka I was deliberately trying NOT to derail the Rach wagon until I KNEW Nick's lynch would go through.

You mean this self-meta-ey WIFOM?

You could have been unwilling to unvote in case the lynch went through, and therefore the unvote would have looked bad.

Back to you

[BROseidon]

Hey NS.

Be useful.

[BROseidon]

... There's nothing self-meta-ey about it. I was unwilling to move the vote on Rach unless the lynch on my all-day-long scumread of Nick was unquestionably supported to go through.

You still tried to get Nick lynched over Rach.

That is still an attempted derail.

Just because you didn't go all-out trying to derail doesn't change the fact that SAYING WE SHOULD FLASH-WAGON NICK IS STILL A POSITION THAT DERAILS THE RACH LYNCH.

[BROseidon]

look at what he is doing. he is going after us for derailing the rach lynch. we went after nick cos we were scum reading him and we still are. he is to trying imply that nick must be town for some weird reason when it is not unusual to have 2 competing wagons on scum on d1. <---- that he isn't even entertaining this demonstrates that his premise is agenda driven and not scum hunting.

Nick's awkward jump onto and then off of my wagon makes me want to go to a scumgroup of Rach/Ven/Mala/Nick for now, and work out from there to find any other scum. Ugh, wish I had time to quad-ISO (also fuck this site for only being able to run 3 ISOs in a single tab).

My entire tiff with Jiffy didn't change this. I'm still leaning towards Nickscum.

Now can you stop attacking me ad hominem because I got frustrated with you and made a snide remark? I crossed a line that I shouldn't have, and I've apologized multiple times. I'm not sure what more you want from me.

[BROseidon]

* d1 thread avoidance when pressure was applied
* dead player who was wanting his blood and he was obviously afraid of
* terrible terrible read up of the thread
* shitty case on us
* fery's read

Guess I'll have to talk to Jiffy about this, or whomever else wants to engage me on it:

1) SoS being dead does not make them right. Also, why would I be afraid of ffery day one but suddenly NOT be afraid of you/Nacho day 2? From that perspective, it makes far more sense that my avoidance of the thread had to do less with fear and more with laziness/time.
2) High level statements like this are impossible to refute effectively. Me saying "my readup was fine" gets us nowhere.
3) And the scum motivation is? Town make bad cases all the time.
4) ffery is not omniscient, last I checked.

[BROseidon]

the push on her made her look town because of the way some of the people were pushing it, honestly i think it was just luck she flipped scum.

What specifically about the way in which people pushed Rach made you think she was town?

[BROseidon]

Nacho whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

I wanted to see if he'd dig a bigger hole

[BROseidon]

lalala, against the mala lynch lalala.

Can you present an argument as to why Mala is town despite the corpus of evidence against her?

[BROseidon]

Mala's responses to the constant pressure she's been under fell town.

Can we stop using high-level statements that aren't going to convince anyone of anything?

[BROseidon]

Desp you missed the part where Mala dismissed Thez's epic case with "lol PL."

Can we lynch Mala now?

[BROseidon]

Nacho what do you think of a scumteam of Rach/Venmar/Nick/Mala/FTL?

pedit: Ah, okay.

[BROseidon]

^ If you have placed Nick anywhere in a scum pile and you do not respond to the above in your next post, you instantly go to the scumpile.

Because I'm also scumreading Mala and have my vote there right now.

pedit: I could also get behind a Venmar lynch.

[BROseidon]

Also Nacho why are you townreading Mala? What has she done that has demonstrated a town interested to you?

[BROseidon]

VOTE: nick

[BROseidon]

-Which means that they want the day over. Now. Rather than later.

Do you think that scum have daytalk, because this sentence implies that you think they do.

[BROseidon]

atm i would want
venny, nicky, mala, probably bro still

So you think I've been hard bussing the mala-slot this whole game (I was literally the first or second person to suspect that slot), as well as bussing both scum-mates today?

wat.

[BROseidon]

his case being shitty on me is a bit of an understatement

Really, because I have you as scum because of your interactions with the Rach wagon yesterday.

Here, let me pull up a few...

I catch Rach scum in Xenoblade and now when I think she's town in this game you guys think my skills on reading her are shit? LOL YOU GUYS FUNNY.

The amount of expectation you guys have for Rach in this game is retarded, HOW are you guys using this to justify your scumreads, its pathetic.

Thezmons #1430 is probably a nice example of why we should not be lynching Rachmaria

Just as bad as Mala's "lol PL" response to that post, which was an incredibly solid case against Rach.

- I caught Rach as scum in Xenoblade MAINLY with meta tells. I THINK I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

- I caught Rach as scum in Xenoblade MAINLY with meta tells. I THINK I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

Rach was acting more towny in Xenoblade if anything because she could scumhunt for the actual scumteam, and from what I've gathered it's a lack of real scumhunting that indicates scum-Rach normally.

In other words, this interaction reeks on multiple levels (because of the context of where you caught her last time, the fact that Rach flipped scum, and the fact that you, throughout all of these posts, never actually give any detail as to why Rach is town. You never articulate how any of her positions or posting quality indicated town interest to her. You instead tried to coast by on "I can read Rach well she's town trust me guys."

pedit: if you could pull up in-thread communications that would indicate that, I would much appreciate it. I would feel like that would have to be contingent on BnB scum, which disagrees with the fact that I find nick scummier right now and I think they're mutually-exclusive as scum.

[BROseidon]

Because I have this weird feeling that I'm completely on the wrong track in this game, and that at least two of my town reads are scum, but I don't know which ones.

So which of your scumreads are you rethinking, given that it's implicit that if you have a few town as scum you must have a few town as scum.

[BROseidon]

what i'm still trying to figure out is why the nick wagon stalled d1 when it was competing with the rm wagon (i have a couple theories regarding this, but they require me being wrong about a couple of my town reads) and whether the interactions with rm makes sense as scum-scum interactions (i'm currently thinking no)

Have you looked at Rach's interactions towards nick, or just nick's towards Rach?

[BROseidon]

If you consider the possibility that you're wrong and help me figure out what nick being town means for the rest of the game, then I will consider the possibility I'm currently over-thinking things.

I like the way you think. Can you stop scumreading me so we can work together on this now?

[BROseidon]

Venmar lynch is a shitty lynch for today. It's high risk and low reward and Venmar's actually been playing the game today, so I'd rather not risk a mislynch on him, esp. if he is PGO. In fact, I think calling out the validity of his claim is just going back to the start of D1, and I'd like to think we made some fucking progress from there when, y'know, we caught scum.

How the fuck is it high-risk? PGO is not strong.

[BROseidon]

I've been quiet mostly because it's pretty clear no one is planning on listening to what I have to say. I can't really find any real substantiated reasons for voting me, so there's not a hell a lot of debate to be done. Most of the people that were scumreading me were initially doing so pretty lightly (from what I could tell), and they're now voting for me because it's easier than explaining why they aren't, when faced with someone loud and town like B&B. Not a hell of a lot for me to do, really. If I scumread people that are popular scum reads it will be called sheeping or just trying to create a counter wagon, and if I scumread people that aren't popular lynch targets they'll just be ignored, so there's no real reason to bother scumhunting if all my hard work is going to go for nothing. Maybe i'm just tired and I'll have more to say in the morning, I don't know.

Compare this with what I've been posting today.

[BROseidon]

WOah woah woah woah hold the fuck up.

I read my role card wrong.

I thought it said including factional ability

It says EXCLUDING factional ability.

Fuck. Sorry guys.

...and does this change your read on me at all?

pedit: Could you indicate why, because his interactions with the Rach wagon suck and saying on a high level "it's bad and scummy" does jack shit towards actually convincing me.

[BROseidon]

Like I literally just quoted 4 things that were horrible defenses of Rach that look like scum trying to discredit a wagon on a buddy.

[BROseidon]

@Muffin:

So you've only dug through nick's stuff? I'll dig through the Rach ISO to see if I find anything that reminds me of how she interacted with me in Xenoblade.

The reason why I think one of nick/BnB is scum is because of the case bnb have been bringing against nick combined with the timing of the case. The case is solid; a lot of people nominally scumreading someone but not really doing anything about it is suspicious as fuck, but they brought it up counter to the Rach wagon. It's either BnB have a really solid case, or BnB are scum who've created a really solid case, which they tried to use to derail a lynch on a buddy and are now trying to use to push through a mislynch (I'm leaning towards the former right now). I doubt it's s/s because why throw one buddy under the bus so aggressively to save another, and then continue this aggressively when there are other targets in play. I doubt it's t/t because the timing of it was too perfect (so if nick is town I would want bnb's head)

pedit: your point about not jumping on the Andy wagon is the only point there that I buy. I should go look back at some timing stuff to see if it makes sense.

[BROseidon]

like he actually thought he was right and that the people pushing rm were idiots tunneling

So then why not try to build a case?

[BROseidon]

ha. cases are fucking useless in this game. i learnt that all too well d1. priority no.1 is stopping a lynch on someone i think could be town.

Here's the problem I have with that mentality.

I think nick is scum, you think he's town.

We can sit in thread spamming at each other for 10 pages "HE'S TOWN" "NO HE'S SCUM" "NO HE'S TOWN" "NO HE'S SCUM" in various permutations.

Or we can try to convince each other using evidence. You know, going through ISOs and shit and pulling out positions, prose, etc that indicates town interests or scum interests, and then using those to actually be productive.

[BROseidon]

What do you think of nick's jump onto and off of my wagon today?

[BROseidon]

I might change my mind after a few flips, I might not. Who do you think is the scumteam?

Theory I'm working with right now is Rach/Mala/Nick/Venmar/FTL scumteam, ordered from strongest to weakest read. The FTL read is fairly weak.

[BROseidon]

A few things they've said today and yesterday have rubbed me the wrong way, let me dig them up.

[BROseidon]

@bnb

will need more posts from bro to confirm reads on him

bro does lurker-style d1 as town though so yep

VOTE: rach

If this doesn't get flashlynched tomorrow I will be greatly disappointed.
Also this head is in limited access until Wednesday.

yes pls


lurkerbro is a scumbro

This inconsistency from day 1 feels like scum-MS trying to capitalize on SoS and BnB hating my hammer. Notice how the slot has also largely stayed away from pushing my wagon today.

hi this is MS sorry I havent been posting very busy these days

I don't agree with mala wagon because mala is cute <3

btw vars, andy lynch is bad i think he is town because rach flipped scum

nick is a great lynch though!


Happy birthday bork!


I also think that TF's gambit is bullshit/bad

mutley <3 ns <3 i love tip and orc too sorry saki I've never played played with you before!

ok thats about all i read up till here

Really don't like the way FTL responds to the Mala wagon.

These are the main things that come to mind right now. Hence why it's not a strong read that I'm pursuing right now.

[BROseidon]

1) SoS was the only one who gave any serious push against me day 1, but after that hammer a bunch of people came in with OMG HAMMER SO TERRIBLE. Pushing a mislynch on me day 2 became much easier after that.

2) I don't have experience with scum-MS, so I don't have a meta baseline. The position (defending my strongest scumread) and the style of the defense (the same high-level bullshit a bunch of people are going with) make me a bit uncomfortable, though, just in terms of what interests they imply (hint: it's scum interests)

[BROseidon]

You instead tried to coast by on "I can read Rach well she's town trust me guys."

- Ok I can tell right here that you have either never played with me before or have no idea who you're talking to.

--

Also HOW THE FUCK is this thing not dead yet?

Vote: Mac

To this?

You aren't going to give me anything to work with. If you're not going to try to convince me to change my mind, why is my mind going to change?

And no, saying "because I play this way" is not a valid answer.

[BROseidon]

Congratulations, you will never convince me of anything ever.

[BROseidon]

i don't think anyone cared about the hammer itself, more about the fact you were clearly still following the thread but not posting content... which i mentioned... and you never really addressed.

I followed vote-counts near deadline. I hammered b/c I didn't think anyone else would and I was going to sleep.

[BROseidon]

i don't think anyone cared about the hammer itself, more about the fact you were

clearly still following the thread but not posting content

... which i mentioned... and you never really addressed.

I followed vote-counts near deadline. I hammered b/c I didn't think anyone else would and I was going to sleep.

you never addressed his point here.

you were following and posting on

other parts of the site but showed up for a lynch.

and did not show up for the intermediate terms.

there is a whole space missing.

I've bolded his point and what you're claiming his point is. They're different. I've already addressed why I posted elsewhere but not here (came back from V/LA to find myself ~50 pages behind, decided to catch up in my other games first and stay on top of them).

[BROseidon]

I'm a Night 2 Suicidal Townie with the ability to give out the post restriction of using metaphors from Greek mythology when I die.

No give it to me I'm a Classics major ^_^

Also Desp why are you scumreading me right now?

[BROseidon]

[BROseidon]

What about their reasons do you find compelling, specifically?

Can anyone in this game post things that are not uber-high level and unable to engage with?

[BROseidon]

So you're not going to rearticulate the arguments or add anything. Got it.

pedit: Pretty much. That re-entry is wretched.

[BROseidon]

Ghostlin is awesome.
Desp not so much.

Yo, Ghostlin. Can I have a reads list from ya, again? I think we can synch them together at this point. 'Specially given that you're apparently calling out Desp and I'm doing much the same.

It makes me sad that you don't want to work with me, because I want to work with you

[BROseidon]

He has a similar approach that I do, so there's value in working together to calibrate an overarching theory of the game.

[BROseidon]

Not much. Should be doing some interview-prep work because on-campus recruiting starts basically when I start school, but really don't want to >.>

Your PR only applies to day 2?

[BROseidon]

lollllllllll.

That gives me an interesting idea for a setup concept. brb writing it down in my game design notebook.

[BROseidon]

I still like the nick wagon. The amount of pushing BnB had to do to get the wagon off the ground, despite plenty of people nominally calling nick scum, is suspect. His jump onto my wagon in response to TF's reaction-test stunk. His read list is meh; it's a lot of regurgitating what other people have said, and it's incredibly hedged (a lot of "seem" and "feel" type language).

Best alternative is Mala wagon. I think they're hard-bussing at this point because their both caught, because holy fuck Mala has not done a single town-thing this game. The way she tried to derail the Rach wagon yesterday was beyond horrific. Venmar is also a good alternative because he did much of the same bullshit with the Rach wagon.

[BROseidon]

Her vote on me was at first a blatant sheep, and then she proceeded to call the wagon that formed on her "counter" to mine despite the fact that everyone on it had scumread her for a while.

So here's roughly what I think about it:

[BROseidon]

Malakittens- Lots of people calling her scum, but no wagon ever appeared. Suspicious. Her thing about why she hasn't she been lynched yet? Suspicious. The push on FTL is really bad, reminds me of the push on me here, where she was scum. Promised comment in 3088, but it just didn't happen, and it feels like her last few posts are just to say that she's posting. Also, I don't understand 3118 at all. Does she think i'm town? If that's the case, why didn't she say anything? What's the point there?

And yet you put that point first. Also, what about her push on FTL reminds you of her push on you in the other game?

[BROseidon]

Promise it won't get us both Modkilled. I swear.
Also, it doesn't involve any PRs, just person-to-person honesty and goodness. :3

-V

Why don't I believe this

[BROseidon]

Your gambits should be more like this:

[BROseidon]

I still like the nick wagon. The amount of pushing BnB had to do to get the wagon off the ground, despite plenty of people nominally calling nick scum, is suspect.

No fucking shit.

His read list is meh; it's a lot of regurgitating what other people have said, and it's incredibly hedged (a lot of "seem" and "feel" type language).

No fucking shit.

Best alternative is Mala wagon. I think they're hard-bussing at this point because their both caught, because holy fuck Mala has not done a single town-thing this game. The way she tried to derail the Rach wagon yesterday was beyond horrific. Venmar is also a good alternative because he did much of the same bullshit with the Rach wagon.

No fucking shit (cont.)

Here "mutant" is a codeword for "dick."

Seriously Varsoon just asked for my opinions, so I gave them. You even "no fucking shit" me on something that nobody else points out (the hedged language).

[BROseidon]

Buuuuuuuuut, I'm no scumhunting god, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. What in my approach do you see as similar to yours? Why do you think having a similar approach to you makes me someone to work with? Do you think our reads are compatible?

You try to look for what group of people make sense as a scumteam together more than most other players, which is what I also like to do. I think that this is compatible in terms of working together because we can discuss the nature of people's interactions to try to discern what scumteam makes the most sense. If you remove me from your scumreads, I think they are compatible in that we could start talking about things, since we are both thinking a Rach/Mala/Nick/X/X group, and we'd just have to align the X's.

[BROseidon]

Do you still believe the PGO claim?

Scum PGO, maybe. If those are a thing.

What's your opinion on his recent posts?

I like Varsoon's recent posts for his town-self. That he's trying to push through this gambit, and the way in which he's pushing it, reminds of of the "eff you guys I'm doing what I want" that he has when he's town. There're still the few MS posts I don't like, so the slot's sitting towards the bottom of my townreads.

Nick wagon was built sloooooooooooooooooooow. What does that mean for his alignment?

More likely to be scum. BnB has been pushing this argument, and I've stated agreement multiple times.

Look back on that TD wagon and tell me your opinion now!

Ugh, I didn't do this when I was building my theory. Venmar is the only name on it I don't like. I think this indicates I should rethink FTL, TF, and Mac a bit.

I'm confused how you compare my play with two towngames and get a townread from it. Aren't you supposed to do something like compare my townIC game with a scumIC game?

I was saying, "there's precedent for town-Nacho to play this way, even if this isn't the same way he plays in a lot of his town games." What I should have done more was to check if there's precedent for you also playing that way in scumgames, and what the difference is between the town and scum versions of that style >.>

You're still reading things from the nhammen slot? What did he do, exactly?

I had a fairly recent scumgame with him, and his posting here felt similar to his posting there. He posted a lot of walls with a lot of surface-level stuff that indicate that he's following the game, but he didn't try to move the game forward. His posting here was the same: he has a giant catchup-wall that's mostly IIoA/complaining about fluff, only asks a few easy questions, and... that's it. No insight, no indication that he's actually thinking about the game.

Have you looked at his other scum meta? Generally a deathtunneling scum meta doesn't work at all unless you also have a deathtunneling town meta.

I haven't. I probably should.

[BROseidon]

Ugh, I didn't do this when I was building my theory. Venmar is the only name on it I don't like. I think this indicates I should rethink FTL, TF, and Mac a bit.

I looked at the wrong vote count >.>

Looking at the one Mastin posted, Venmar, Nick, and Mala I don't like, which makes me much more comfortable.

[BROseidon]

@muffin, just gonna answer your questions to me and let you have your convo about me with Nacho:

Why is scum-PGO not possible? I'm saying I think he's scum, so I think either his claim is fake or he's a scum PGO.

The two I linked to earlier where on day 1 where he says "lurkerbro is townbro" and then "lurkerbro is scumbro" later.

I'm scumreading Venmar largely for how he interacted with the Rach wagon yesterday. He pushed to discredit it, but he never actually gave reasons as to why Rach was town. Instead, he used vague appeals to meta, like "I scumread Rach last game and this is not scum Rach" despite the fact, as I've pointed out, that Rach last game played more like her town self than this game because she could use the multiball to cover the big weakness in her scumgame (that she can't fabricate scumhunting). It was a slightly less obvious way of doing what Mala was doing.

I also failed to look at the right vote count until Mastin posted it. Nick was on the wagon and nhammen/Mala stated support but never jumped on, so those names I also like.

[BROseidon]

1) Your logic about what I would think as town is weak 1) Because your pushing weak semantics, and 2) Scum PGO may be fine. I only know what my role is, what NS's is, what the flips are, and what claims are in play. I don't have enough information to gauge whether a scum-PGO makes sense or not.

2) MS plays a janky game that I'm not particularly strong at reading. Notice how I've put the slot towards the bottom of my townreads.

3) The people who did it most prominently and in the laziest way were Venmar and Mala. Guess who got scumreads out of it.

[BROseidon]

Bro's case on me is BS and fabricated in every way possible. He's probably being obtuse on purpose since anyone with a brain could read my interaction with RM as town.

Except I'm not the only one reading it that way.

[BROseidon]

BRO is uber scum for those posts...

Mac or BRO... WHICH SHOULD I TAKE?!?! *cue rebecca black*

But not Nacho for thinking the same way I am?

Wat?

[BROseidon]

Or Ghost.

[BROseidon]

Oh, I'm agreeing that the whole 'my meta with RM means I'm town' is a bridge too far. I do think you're a bit cracked for justifying scum PGO over him being a shitty liar.

I meant "Or Ghost" with respect to what I'd said about Nacho >.>

And scum-PGO may be crazy, but theoretically possible. Not that it actually matters, Venmar has long since overdrawn scumminess from what little town equity the claim gave him.

God that metaphor works much better in my head >.>

[BROseidon]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL YOU THINK YOU'RE CLEVER DON'T YOU?

STOP FUCKING PRETENDING LIKE YOU ARE READING THIS FUCKING GAME BECAUSE NACHO IS ONE OF MY FUCKING LARGE SCUMREADS DIPSHIT

NOT TO MENTION YOU'RE JUST SHOVING SHIT IN MY MOUTH

And Ghost? And EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO IS SCUMREADING YOU FOR THE SAME REASON?

You get 2/X, grats.

[BROseidon]

Why are we even treating the whole Venmar thing as a thing? At worst I have a light scum read on him, and it's because he's being a trolly cocky asshole who's play I can't place as generally. Either way, he's not the fucking play today, so why are we even discussing him like he is and that there's a big 'Venmar is scum' conspiracy with zero support and zero votes.

Because producing content is valuable.

[BROseidon]

@BRO - Cause putting me in a corner saying "you're scum whether you're town or not" and dealing with me in an absolute IS SO FUCKING TOWN AM I RIGHT?!?!

If you said yes, please proceed to off yourself.

Either take up a position that doesn't indicate a scum interest or do things in a way that doesn't indicate scum interests.

You've failed at both of these things for reasons that I've already stated, and you've done nothing to change this.

pedit brb quoting posts I've already posted.

[BROseidon]

his case being shitty on me is a bit of an understatement

Really, because I have you as scum because of your interactions with the Rach wagon yesterday.

Here, let me pull up a few...

I catch Rach scum in Xenoblade and now when I think she's town in this game you guys think my skills on reading her are shit? LOL YOU GUYS FUNNY.

The amount of expectation you guys have for Rach in this game is retarded, HOW are you guys using this to justify your scumreads, its pathetic.

Thezmons #1430 is probably a nice example of why we should not be lynching Rachmaria

Just as bad as Mala's "lol PL" response to that post, which was an incredibly solid case against Rach.

- I caught Rach as scum in Xenoblade MAINLY with meta tells. I THINK I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

- I caught Rach as scum in Xenoblade MAINLY with meta tells. I THINK I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.

Rach was acting more towny in Xenoblade if anything because she could scumhunt for the actual scumteam, and from what I've gathered it's a lack of real scumhunting that indicates scum-Rach normally.

In other words, this interaction reeks on multiple levels (because of the context of where you caught her last time, the fact that Rach flipped scum, and the fact that you, throughout all of these posts, never actually give any detail as to why Rach is town. You never articulate how any of her positions or posting quality indicated town interest to her. You instead tried to coast by on "I can read Rach well she's town trust me guys."

pedit: if you could pull up in-thread communications that would indicate that, I would much appreciate it. I would feel like that would have to be contingent on BnB scum, which disagrees with the fact that I find nick scummier right now and I think they're mutually-exclusive as scum.

[BROseidon]

You instead tried to coast by on "I can read Rach well she's town trust me guys."

- Ok I can tell right here that you have either never played with me before or have no idea who you're talking to.

--

Also HOW THE FUCK is this thing not dead yet?

Vote: Mac

To this?

You aren't going to give me anything to work with. If you're not going to try to convince me to change my mind, why is my mind going to change?

And no, saying "because I play this way" is not a valid answer.

This also.

[BROseidon]

btw did you ever do that?

Ugh I forgot.

I'll do that now.

[BROseidon]

his opening is obviously different from Xenoblade and MyLo.
i'm not even more than normally confident Andy is town (haven't put my time in yet), but the cases I've skimmed so

far aren't looking for the right things.

The insult thing is a great aspect of his meta but you might be misinterpreting some of his insults.

Are you scum with Andy or something

Pushed Andy/Nacho scumteam. Something I pointed out in my big catchup post that everyone discredited is that a lot of people were pushing the Andy/Nacho theory from the get-go, which from the Rach flip looks bad for the people who were pushing it.

pedit: Okay maybe my ideas of reasonable setup design are crazy >.>

pedit2: Or I'm town trying to ask you to convince me that you're town because I'm scumreading you.

[BROseidon]

When you try to make every single little thing about a person scummy, then you're just trying to fit the person to the read

Not enough l's and o's right now.

[BROseidon]

. . . that was a push?

in your opinion, why did venmar never vote andrius during this... push?

Because he was tunneling mastin all of day 1. He generally doesn't talk about Andy.

[BROseidon]

Isoing now, did control+f for "Andy" and got back surprisingly little. Skimming everything now to make sure there isn't some in-context stuff I missed.

[BROseidon]

Oh, Venmar refers to Andy as "Andrius" sometimes.

And his townread of Andy is meh. Could probably construe it as towny, but it's null.

[BROseidon]

there was a point near the end of the d1 where he mentioned voting andrius over rm, but that's it. 2086 for reference, and i don't think this is scummy.

I don't think it's town either.

I saw that, and I think that it's null. What's more relevant is how he tried to derail the Rach wagon.

[BROseidon]

he could have tried to discredit the cases with more than "rm is town coz meta".

This is how town would try to discredit a case. That's the point I'm making.

[BROseidon]

no. that is an issue of playstyle. and you're being selective here, because nobody who was against the RM wagon d1 did anything more than venmar did in response to the cases against RM.

NS is IC and SoS flipped town. Are you trying to tell me that nobody discrediting the wagon was scum?

Also I hate how TD is playing today, but his day 1 play at least demonstrated some level of towniness. Venmar doesn't have that.

[BROseidon]

(For that matter, if a town BROseidon wanted to work with me, I think he would, too. )

Let's flesh out the Venmar read, then. Why are you reading him as town.

[BROseidon]

Can I participate in this discussion, BRO?
I've got mixed feelings 'bout Venny.

-V

Sure. Where do your mixed feelings stem from?

[BROseidon]

Why are you reading him as town.

Because I am.

Near the end of D1, Venmar had a reach-out to me, and me to him. We came to an understanding of one another, and realized we were both town. And you can trust me on that.

Because this is going to convince me. Wait...

[BROseidon]

So, why hasn't Nick been lynched yet exactly?

Why aren't you using your IC-powers to find scum?

[BROseidon]

I'm town. Way to go. I gave you every fucking opportunity to stop and realize lynching me didn't make sense, but seems like everyone just sheeped people who didn't listen.

My reads are pretty much the same as what I posted last, except FTL is town, and Mala is only about as scummy as nacho and mac, I exaggerated that read, and nacho is actually probably a better lynch, although Varsoon's thing might still give something on that, idk. All three of them seem pretty scum.

@Majiffy You better get some damn good reads off this.

@Varsoon You tried your hardest to keep me alive and lynch scum instead, and I just couldn't hold up my end of the bargin, sorry bro. If you can still get something or other out of your gambit that would be sweet, too bad no one listened.

@Mala Talk more pls.

@Venmar When you say something, try to talk on something that might help town in there. It pays off in the end.

@Desperado Your questions and analysis seem pretty poignant, and your treatment of my wagon was intelligent, I just wish you talked more.

@Notscience You are absolutely worthless and degrade the quality of this game. Seriously. This is a game where the players have to make the game fun for eachother, and you utterly failed. Please don't play like this again, and please don't play with me again.

@SoS sorry u ded

@Metal sonic Honestly, I could never figure out what you were saying, so dunno.

@Mastin You're probably town. You're also way too full of yourself. Your reads are also pretty good.

@BnB and Aj http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

@zMuffin You seem like you're a pretty good player, but you need to like, be more involved, man. Push things, yell at people! I recommend it, it's invigorating.

@Muttley Don't be such a sheep. That said, nice vig kill.

@Saki Read my @notscience, but fit it to yourself a little bit more.

@Mollie I won't be mad at you for this is if you win this for town, deal?

@Andrius You seem like a pretty cool guy, on the whole.

inb4 this is all fluff

inb4 I'm obv caught scum flailing

Reads: (inb4 manufactured as fuck) Some are new, some are from my last reads post.

Town

:

Mutleyddmc

-I like his vig kill and it seemed genuine

BeautyAndTheBeast

- They need to get their shit together, but they seem pretty townie in their involvement.

notscience

- duh

nickthename

- duh

mastin2

- All in all, i'm liking him. He's probably going to get night-killed, but i'm liking him.

Trust Fund

- The claim and gambit thing seemed town, and the rest of their play has seemed fairly townie.

zMuffinMan

-His treatment of my wagon could conceivably be scum distancing themself from a mislynch, that said, it reminds me of my own play around wagons I don't understand. I think he's town, mainly because his emotions feel very real, and not something scum would fake.

Faster Than Light

-He seems very town now, and I really like his play. No one seems to listen to him, which is annoying, but whatever.

Null-Town

:

Aj The Epic

- I really didn't like his push on me, it felt kinda manufactured, although the split push on me and Mala seems kinda town, so dunno.

Desperado

- The lack of real recent activity is worrying, he needs to get his head in the game, or maybe he's just scum lurking. Give him a little pressure and maybe this will clear up.

BROseidon

- I'm liking his more recent content, although he feels a little....restrained, maybe? I dunno, kinda seems like i'm not seeing all he's thinking.

Null

:

TiphaineDeath

- He's just not saying anything in a way that's putting me a bit on edge. That said, he feels like very easy lynchbait for scum to push, so i'd watch out when wagons appear on him.

Andrius

- Soft claimed a PR and didn't get night-killed, which is a little iffy, and his treatment of Rach felt a tad bit bussy to me. His play-style is hard for me to read, but it seems kinda towny? I don't really know. He's not at all transparent, maybe mollie will be able to weedle something out of him.

Everyone else:

(From least to most scummy)

Venmar

-I'm not seeing enough involved content here, which is concerning. I'm worried he might be just sitting on his claim and just making short posts to avoid getting a second glance. That said, I don't think he's a very good early game lynch.

Ghostlin

- He doesn't push Rach much but jumps on her wagon at the very end, which is alarming. His day 2 stuff his been a bit better.

Mac

-He just goes with the flow a little

too

hard. Also, the fact that no pressure seems to be on him at all is a bit worrying, I think he may just be hiding in the BnB townread.

Nachomamm8

- I'm not going to retread over all of what mastin said in 2815, but Rach's treatment of Nacho was very bad. Also, he votes Rach in 995 but then unvotes in 1432, and I can't find any explanation for either. I don't like his treatment of her, and I don't like her treatment of him. No one seems to hold him accountable for anything he does, which is very very bad.

Malakittens

-The push on FTL was really bad, and I didn't like how it seemed people were ignoring what I said about her. She's also extremely inactive, which is very annoying, she seems to be hiding behind my lynch.

D2 twin wagons on Mala and Nacho would be sweet, although maybe Varsoon will be able to confirm their alignments, which would be even better.

I honestly don't understand at all why people accused my lack of posting recently as scummy, it just doesn't make sense. What the hell would I get out of doing that, especially when Rach just got lynched for that, and it's clearly leading to people thinking i'm scum? That really makes no sense at all, and I wish you people would think a little before you push. The ignorance of the far better option of lynching Mala first is dumb, but I think the fact that the townleader BnB just utterly dismissed it, out of what comes across to me as pride in his own reading ability, but idk, contributed to that a lot.

I leave at 6:30 and get home and 5, so maybe you guys can understand how I might be too tired to write up a long case? I guess not.

Why is there nothing to me in this giant wall

Also, same for Andy. You literally quoted 0 of the things I've posted.

[BROseidon]

[BROseidon]

Oh look I got prodded.

And then the hammer happened.

Hopefully I'll be around tomorrow to talk shit through with y'all. Ran out of things to say today >.>

[BROseidon]

Haven't had a chance to do any rereading to recalibrate reads, so stuff is really wonky right now. Scumlist right now looks like:

Scum:

Mala
Venmar

These are more based on the Rach flip than anything else, so the Nick flip didn't weaken these too much. The Mala read is stronger than the Venmar one, though.

Possibly Scum:

AJ
Andy
Desp
Mac
Nacho
TD
TF

Town:

FTL
Ghost
Mastin
Mutt
Muffin

I'm hoping that I'll either get a chance to do rereads soon, or that today will shed light on that middle group. Hoping to pull two solid scumreads from that middle group, and I have a few ideas on where to look to start. Nacho scum exonerates Venmar, btw. I don't think they can be together on a scumteam.

As far as what happened day 1 goes, it's either that scum found the Andy counterwagon more juicy (which would be strange, given the vote counts you just posted), or there was a last-ditch effort to give a weak Andy slot towncred once scum saw that Rach was going down. Given the way that Andy coasted through yesterday, I think that would be a good place to apply pressure today.

Other than Mala, of course. I still want her head.

VOTE: EVIL KITTENS

[BROseidon]

if you actually have reasons that you think are decent for voting mala, then i don't care if you vote mala. although i will look at those reasons and assess what i think of them and talk about any i disagree with. if the mala wagon is just "mala is scum" as seems to be the case with bro's vote, then yeah, i'm going to be pretty pissed off if the same shit that happened d2 happens today.

1) I've already stated why nhammen's postings before replacing out were scummy.

2) The way in which Mala tried to discredit the Rach wagon, especially her response to Thez's case, was scummy.

3) The way that Mala has coasted throughout this entire game, especially during day 2, has been scummy.

No, the case is not fucking "lol Mala is scum." If you're going to call me a fucking moron instead of engaging with the arguments that I've repeated MULTIPLE FUCKING TIMES AT THIS POINT, then go ahead you fuckwad. I'm seriously getting pissed off at your "holier than though" attitude and your fucking refusal to engage with what I've posted.

So yeah, replace out if all you're going to do is be a fucking asshat about everything.

[BROseidon]

talk about the "way" mala has coasted and why it's "scummy"

i'm aware you've called things scummy, i've yet to see you explain why they are.

nhammen's entry post was incredibly reminiscent of his entry-post and overall posting style as scum in a game I recently completed with him. He posted a lot of IIoA and fence-sitting stuff without engaging with what was actually going on around him. This demonstrates a scum interest because it makes him appear like he's engaging with the thread while he's not actually pushing the game forward.

Mala comes in, doesn't post anything of substance, and instead spends most of day 1 trying to push people off the Rach wagon without actually giving any reasons as to why Rach is town. Her response to Thez's case, "so lol PL," was particularly horrible, but everything she posted was along the lines of "this is just Rach posting the way Rach does" despite the fact that Rach was strongly playing to her scum meta of only posting fluff without actually scumhunting at all. This demonstrates scum interest because it's her trying to derail a wagon on scum for reasons that were not just bad, but horrible (note, this is the same thing I was saying about Venmar yesterday).

And she (like many players that I want to look at) coasted through yesterday. Instead of engaging with the thread and trying to prove why she's town, she was content to lurk out the day, not contribute anything, and let the nick lynch go through without voicing an actual opinion. This demonstrates scum interest because it got pressure off her in the short-term while not giving any content for the rest of us to work with should we decide to ultimately lynch her.

Now are you going to respond to my case, or are you going to continue to deathtunnel me and treat me like shit?

[BROseidon]

I don't remember the last time BRO did anything so let's just start here.

...Um, what?

I was literally the driving force behind the first 1/2 or so of the previous day phase...

[BROseidon]

I noticed

Also, I didn't pick up your crumbs, and I don't really care what you've crumbed because your crumbing is null, unless something was misrepped during Xenoblade.

[BROseidon]

Herro scum cw. Rach is town and Andy is scum, tyvm.

You nullread Rach for most of the day, then this happened.

Were you lying about your read?

[BROseidon]

"I was drunk so it doesn't count?" Really?

Because people aren't more honest when they're drunk. Wait...

[BROseidon]

TF are you actually going to play the game or are you going to keep cruising?

[BROseidon]

do you have a problem with the actual content she was posting? because hey, for someone that has a scum read on her, you strangely neglected to comment on anything she was actually saying D2. i don't recall you even acknowledging, say, 3306 and 3308. if you are (were) so strongly reading mala as scum, why did you avoid interacting with her for most of D2? Why did you coast on your nick vote for reasons that were plain horrible? (iirc it was... one of nick/bnb is scum because ~reasons~. and nick could be scum because it's hard to get him lynched.)

You mean how through day two she posted shit like 3306 and 3308 that's "let me talk about how frustrated I am because people think I'm scum and aren't listening to me. Oh and I'll post reads with minor explanations?" What am I supposed to do with that, exactly?

And it wasn't ~reasons~, it was stuff that I clearly articulated in my first post coming into day 2. Turns out I had a wrong read on the gamestate. Hey, it happens, but I did post that I thought one of them was scum and posted the reasoning behind why I thought that. Multiple times, in fact, because mollie attacked me hard for it. Why do you keep insisting that I have not been posting reasons when, of everyone in the game, I have consistently stated what my logic has been behind everything at a deeper level than anyone else. Seriously, compare:

If I do nothing I'm lynched and if I do something I'm lynched.

well you wouldn't be lynched if you did something and it actually looked town.

i'm personally not convinced you're scum, but i wouldn't feel particularly bad if you're lynched because you're being antitown.

if you're town, why don't you help us find scum.

i'm not convinced ftl is scum, change my mind.

while you're at it, talk about who else you think is scum, and who you think is town.

You don't get it do you?

I tried to do something during Day 1. I was getting scum read for catching up and interacting with players and posting my thoughts and chasing after my highest scum read.

These same said people who were voting me for being scum D1 are still alive and voting for me D2.

Although some of the people on my wagon currently I feel are town. So there's a chance this may be a town driven wagon (AJ, Mastin)

Nick did a crazy flip flop on me from Day 1 and it looks survivalist at this point. Which in both ways can be a town tell or a scum tell, but I might be leaning on a scum tell at this point with one scum dead.

BRO is probably scum due to the NK.

Ghostlin is fuck tunneling so I'm not sure, but due to him misrepping me I'm leaning scum.

Mac is just a confused townie.

I'm "eh" on FTL at this point. Something in Day 2 that was posted is making me think town. No I won't point it out. so I'm having mixed feels right now.

to

HOLY FUCK I SAID I THINK ONE OF YOU IS SCUM. YOU MADE A GOOD CASE AGAINST HIM, BUT THE CONTEXT OF THAT CASE (BEING COUNTER TO THE RACH WAGON) MAKES ME EYE IT SUSPICIOUSLY. YOU WOULD KNOW HER ALIGNMENT IF YOU'RE HER PARTNER, WHICH IS, Y'KNOW, WHAT I'M SAYING IS PLAUSIBLE. YOU SEEM TO BE FAILING TO UNDERSTAND HOW I AM VIEWING THIS GAME: SCUM KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. SCUM TRY TO CONSTRUCT A NARRATIVE THAT LEADS TO THEIR WIN. TOWN'S JOB IS TO FIGURE OUT THIS NARRATIVE TO FIGURE OUT WHO THE SCUM ARE. YOU AND NICK BOTH MAKE SENSE BASED ON WHAT HAPPENED, DEPENDING ON WHICH OF TWO VERY LIKELY NARRATIVES WAS IN PLAY.

Notice how I articulate a theory about why I hold my opinions. Notice that this is what I've been doing consistently.

And Nacho is right we should stop talking about nhammen. What I object to about Mala is that her entire point about Rach was "she does this as either alignment" WAS NOT WHAT SHE DOES AS EITHER ALIGNMENT. SHE DOES ALWAYS HAVE A DECENT AMOUNT OF FLUFF, BUT SHE DOESN'T ALWAYS COMPLETELY LACK CONTENT. THERE'S A KEY DIFFERENCE THERE; RACH HAS SCUMHUNTING WHEN SHE'S TOWN. HERE THERE WAS A CLEAR LACK OF SCUMHUNTING.

Let's look at the above Mala post, btw. What we have is:

1) Whining about nobody listening to her.
2) "Oh my wagon might be town driven." Watch me sit on this fence and not actually try to analyze anything.
3) "Let me sit on the fence about Nick more"
4) "Let me make an unsubstantiated claim about BRO because the NK points to him being scum, despite the fact that the NK makes sense for a fuckton of other people as scum as well given that SoS was a huge threat to any scumteam."
5) "Let me both fencesit and have a weak read on Ghost"
6) "Let me just discredit what Mac is saying"
7) "Let me fencesit some more"

There's no conviction behind any of that. It's a lot of confused, jarbled, and hedged reads, which look a lot like scum trying not to really ruffle any more feathers.

And there was a pretty fucking strong push to get people off of Rach's wagon. Andy and Nick BOTH got counterwagoned.

[BROseidon]

i'm saying the reason you thought that was shit. which makes your vote on nick shit. the thing is, you seemed to have so much more conviction that mala is scum, but you were perfectly fine with sitting on a nick vote because you thought one of bnb/nick could be scum. . . . . . . and if you were so convinced that mala is scum, why did you not take every opportunity to show why you thought this when mala was actually posting. why not talk about the posts from her that you thought were bad? why were you ignoring posts like 3306/3308 if they were so bad?

1) Why was the reason shit?

2) Because plenty of other people are also scumreading Mala.

[BROseidon]

i suppose you could argue that she didn't need to strongly counter-push because others were doing it, but then your case would boil down to "mala was wrong, so i think she's scum"

She hasn't strongly tried to do anything. Does that not ring as suspect to you at all?

[BROseidon]

And there was a pretty fucking strong push to get people off of Rach's wagon. Andy and Nick BOTH got counterwagoned.

So who were the scum pushing those counterwagons?

Let me go look at the wagons:

Wagon on Rach starts with Muffin/Desp/Andy. I want to reread this part of the game to look for any potential bus that I missed before.

Counter on FTL with thez, Mala, Skull, TD, Nick. Thez and Nick have both flipped town, and Mutt is a strong townread. Mala is currently my main scumread, and I've grown wary of TD, so that makes me feel pretty good here, so Mala>TD in terms of likeliness of scum pushing counterwagon.

Counter on mastin of Venmar, TF, myself, nick, TD. Venmar is currently a scumread and I'm wary of both TD and TF. Venmar>TF>TD

Mastin wagon adds Skull, don't care about that because I'm pretty sure Mutt is town.

Nick always had a bit of suspicion on him, but now is where his wagon starts to pick up a bit. Looking at it, I think it's town-driven. Votecount 1.7 has mastin as the only potential scum pushing that wagon.

Counter on Andy then forms. BnB, SoS, NS are the first three on it, and they're all town. Mala and TF could be scum trying to push a town counter-wagon further, which would fit with the FTL and mastin wagons.

Andy wagon gains Rach, so there's scum for sure >.>

Mac joins Andy wagon, which is another person I'm wary of. He's more likely town than Mala or TF, though.

BnB re-pushes nick wagon. Looks town driven. Mastin>FTL for scum there

TF was early on the Andy wagon and then late to the Rach wagon. Let me go find that image of a bus again...

Looking back at the vote counts, TF seemed to be on nearly all the non-Rach wagons of the day, not joining the Rach wagon until the very end. That looks really bad because it suggests scum trying to push every available option before bussing a partner. TD also looks bad for similar reasons (minus the jumping on at the end part), and Mala and Venmar both pushed counterwagons a bit (Venmar ended with his vote in a shit place despite the lynch occurring near deadline), although not quite as hard, it seems.

[BROseidon]

Oh, you have the entire D1 nick wagon listed in your town reads. How was that a counterwagon?

I'd forgotten who was actually on the wagon. I'm sorry for not remember everybody's votes from day 1. Oh wait, no I'm not.

[BROseidon]

D2BRO: i think mala is scum for x, y, z, BUT i think one of nick and bnb is scum, and bnb is pushing a nick lynch, so i will join bnb and vote nick, even though nobody agrees that my reasoning for thinking one of bnb/nick is scum is sound.

if you think this isn't an accurate representation, tell me why.

You're missing the parts where I townread bnb, and the momentum swung to the nick wagon.

I'm sorry that I compromised on a lynch to read a scumread over a scumread. Wait...

[BROseidon]

because your reason boiled down to nothing more than that you thought nick vs bnb was TvS. this is not a good reason to vote nick. if you think it is, then i have nothing more to say to you about this. you can claim "gamestate" and other bullshit reasons for thinking this could be true, but the fact that no one agreed with you about this should have clued you in that you were wrong. ALSO the reason is shit because you seem to have had far more reason for thinking mala is scum, yet you never tried to push her seriously after the first few posts of d1.

I guess you have nothing else to say, then.

And no, the fact that nobody else agreed with me should not clue me in to it being wrong, considering that entire towns have been duped a multitude of times. In the last Xeno game, only Venmar thought Rach was scum, and had to use his PR to catch her. NOBODY thought Orc was scum. AJ and Jiffy were the only people to scumread me. Nobody scumread GIF, and I had to shoot him to get him killed.

Everybody else disagreeing in a game built around hidden information, where a group of people are intentionally trying to mislead everyone else, is not a cause for concern. I'd be more concerned if there weren't dissent.

[BROseidon]

YOU DON'T SAY YOU THINK SOMEONE IS SCUMMIER THAN SOMEONE YOU'RE READING AS TOWN, YOU SAY YOU THINK BNB IS TOWN.

I think one of X or Y is scum.

I think X is scum.

Therefore I think Y is...

Please tell me you have basic critical reading skills.

[BROseidon]

the biggest problem i have here is that you're just positing a possibility with no actual reasoning to think that one of them had to be scum. BnB's case on nick wasn't even good (i pretty much dismantled every argument they put forth against nick D1 and was met with majiffy going "nahuh ur dum")

And I thought it was solid, because it made sense. Scum not jumping on the nick wagon now that we know nick is town is surprising.

[BROseidon]

Also, I would have pushed bnb at today's start had they not been NK'd. Scum made my life easier there.

[BROseidon]

And leaving options open is bad because...

pedit: HOLY FUCK NACHO I'VE BEEN BUSTING MY ASS THE PAST TWO DAYS.

EVERYONE ON THE MALA WAGON AGREED TO LYNCH NICK IN EXCHANGE FOR BNB'S COOPERATION ON MALA. I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO WANTED MALA OVER NICK.

[BROseidon]

Actually Nacho where the fuck have you been. You've had little impact this game.

[BROseidon]

So you're where I was at the end of day 1.

What's throwing you for a loop?

[BROseidon]

I was reading bnb as town because I was reading nick as scum. Once nick flipped town, I felt I needed to slow down. I wanted to push bnb today so that I'd see whether I was wrong, but scum answered that question for me.

And why do scum like calling something TvS when they know it's TvT? Why wouldn't they call it TvT to build towncred?

Also, I need to step back and find time to get a reread in. I'm starting to doubt a few of my reads at both ends...

[BROseidon]

1)...which is why I was going to push bnb today.

2) Because the odds of me getting a mislynch on bnb before I myself got lynched would have been...

3) Pretty much everything that isn't Mutt and Mala needs a reset at this point. Even the Mala read might need a reset once I go through things from a different lens. Don't think the Mutt one will.

[BROseidon]

...which is why I was going to push bnb today

which just proves you weren't reading bnb as town... so uh, yeah.

Because the odds of me getting a mislynch on bnb before I myself got lynched would have been...

if you legitimately think this, then HOW THE FUCK DOES (1) MAKE SENSE?

If they were scum, and my attacking them could get enough information to get them lynched later; I'd take the trade. If they were town, hopefully I'd be able to figure it out and move elsewhere. Seems like a win-win from my end.

pedit: Varsoon, it's not just that. Even if bnb weren't the NK (and town still), my pushing them would not have gone over well. At the same time, I'm so far in the pit I might as well keep playing aggressive.

[BROseidon]

I still like the Mala lynch, but there's some other stuff that I need to reconsider. The combinations of today's postings and going through the day 1 votecounts in ISO is making me think that I read day 1 completely wrong.

I'm mostly thinking that I didn't look hard enough for Rach busses.

[BROseidon]

I'm going to sleep now and won't be available much if at all until tomorrow evening. Hopefully the time will help me mull things over a bit.