Mini 1489 - VisCon: Murder at Wingate Mansion [Game Over]

[Desperado]

Vote: Empire

Making excuses already?

[Desperado]

Not really no

[Desperado]

Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

[Desperado]

I didn't play in those games and I'm not "insisting" on trying to meta you. My initial impression of your play here is town, and Nacho and Tammy both saw Genericscum in RW so their answer to that question will help inform my read on you.

Also, scum can make cases that make sense and aren't loaded with misreps.

[Desperado]

Liking tammy though (not in that way, I'm a married man).
Tammy, what are your early thoughts?

Shadoweh and gargantua are leaning town.

Peacebringer might be scum.

I'm looking forward to when empire gets a chance to post so I can solidify my read there, but he might be town.

My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

Is the shadow read meta-based?

Peace's Generic questioning looked really town to me, what's got you leaning scum there?

Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

Agree for the most part, but since I was his partner I didn't really read all his posts. This back and forth feels a little different than the one he got into with metal sonic though.

I think it's probably because he didn't have any history with Metal beforehand.

The third red flag is with your misreps, and how you handle being called out on them. I'm not a nitpicky guy. Hell, some of my cases in games boil down to "lynch him cuz he's scum", I have no problem with changing reads, etc. But there's a certain way that town handles misreps, and there's a certain way scum handles misreps. When I call you out on a misrep, you literally do not address them. It took me forever in order to get you to admit that you fucked up in regards to the Desperado accusation and you didn't even fully admit that when it happened. You misrepped Marangal earlier when she said she hadn't been wrong with a scumread on you in the games she's played with you. You're misrepping me when you say that I'm auto-clearing everyone I call town. You said this was your scum meta, so I'm assuming you would be extra cautious in clearing things up when these things happen, but you aren't and don't address them until I push you hard to. And then you accuse me of side-stepping when I'm clearly trying to get you to answer my question? Hypocrisy at its finest.

Don't you think this makes Generic more likely to be town? This looks like classic town-flail to me, and I think this game would be much, much better off if the three of you could stop being paranoid and work together.

Mara, Nacho, Generic, Peacebringer, Garantula <--That's the town block.

Unvote
Vote: Gaiden

No but calling someone town is. Who are you more inclined to listen to, the guy you argued with who saw you as scummy or the guy telling you how town you are to him?

AtE, creates bias in the reads on cases. It's why there is no point in arguing my lynch right now, people have a perception of either arrogance at my ability, or scummy by reputation. Only when I flip town does all that wash away and my motives become sincere.

Nacho to me (opinion based on previous interactions) has a lot of suspicions when town but here he is focused on the one snd very readily clearing players as town on day 1 without reasons why. And while I keep pointing them out he keeps avoiding answering.

Feel free to vote for me shadoweh. I have warmed to you anyway, When You stopped insulting me and focused on topic you were more sane. I'm happy to admit I hit you wrong early, but early suspicion will still be valid so I will watch the game unfold from the sidelines answer how you go after today.

But put the vote down, mara and nacho are screwed when I flip town, you guys need to just not let them weasel out of it with excuses.

Doesn't this post just say "if you need to suck up to someone, use AtE" then you blatantly used it on shadoweh? or am i misreading it?

At the very least, prove your worth. You say you need "4 more votes" but don't you really only need 3?
Either way, AtE is spewing from your posts, at least in my eyes. And, tbh, i'm not sure why people even use it. i mean, isn't it something people only do when grasping at straws. You make it seem like your lynch is inevitable when it is fact not. We still have nearly 2 weeks to sort this out, yet you have already resigned yourself to this fate. It's sad that a newbie like me has to tell you to stop the damn defeatist attitude. I see you have 2 options here.
1. Vote yourself.
2. Cut the crap and actually start scum hunting.

I'm going to sleep now. I hope to see your decision when I wake up.

I really hated this series of posts and I think Gaiden's reaction to Mara v Generic was the worst by far--there's no attempt to mediate or develop the situation, Gaiden just pops in at the end, yells at Generic for AtEing (why? He's having an emotional response, not alignment indicative either way in this scenario) and then baiting him to self-vote. + we still don't know his read on either of them.

[Desperado]

Who else do you want me to look at though?

I hear you, you're saying he's scum and he's saying you are. At this point, every single post you make to the other is just confirming what you're saying and it's not very productive nor is it helpful in gaining a read on either of you so as to know how to gauge what you're saying. At this point, people are just going to pick sides, and a lot of times that comes down to who they sympathize with more or who annoys them more, and then it's a crapshoot for if we find scum.

I'm not telling you to look at anyone in particular. Though I'd like to know your thoughts on desperado.

My biggest thoughts right now though are that I want you and Mara to take a break from your slap fight. It would be one thing if it were based on in thread posts, but its on how you guys expect for each other to behave. That's fine for a little bit, but it should end now. Neither of you are going to convince anyone based on what you're doing now. It's at the point where it's causing a distraction and making it hard to get a read on either of you. So it would be super awesome if you took a break from one another and looked at other things.

This is not at ALL the right move. When two people are familiar with one another and they are fighting with each other, that is the very first thing you pay attention to and you sort that out before anything else. If you read Tierce as scum, I will focus in on your fight until you have sorted her out to the best of your ability; ignoring what is pretty much a free scum lynch if we play our cards right is the worst move possible.

I don't agree and I never said anything about ignoring it. It's become largely unproductive and a distraction. I think it shouldn't be their sole focus and I think it should be tabled. And I've seen enough people who think they know each other read each other wrong that I'm not going to go blindly on that. There is no new ground being tread, neither is budging nor are they seeing anything the other is saying as productive. It's dissolved into NO U. That's not productive or helpful at all. And I haven't been able to gauge a read on either I feel halfway decent about that would even make the start of the argument meaningful.

Tammy is also town for her reaction to Mara v Generic in reference to macmollie v myself in RW

[Desperado]

Desperado - I was scum in red wedding. However, those were my honest thoughts; I'd have thought that way as town.

I know you were scum, and the two reactions are different enough that I'm reading you as town.

I remember someone saying that the inclusion of flowery language and expansive metaphors whilst dispelling the argument was the scumtell for you--when you're town you cut the shit and try to solve the problem and move on, which is what I see here.

[Desperado]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29483

[Desperado]

@Desperado/Tammy: In what way do you guys feel that Generic is playing differently here than he did in The Red Wedding?

Mainly the way he's approaching the fight with Mara. The emotional responses are genuine and I can see the gears turning in his brain, whereas in RW I felt like his side of the Generic/MS fight was fake and put-on.

[Desperado]

What are you two seeing in Shadow?

[Desperado]

What are you two seeing in Shadow?

Mostly because I feel like she's playing somewhat similarly to this game (bonus: Llamarble, Tammy, and myself were all town here while Nacho was scum).

Can you be more specific? I'm not seeing it.

In particular, Shadow was much, much more proactive with their vote in that game. This quote:

"I expect you to treat a suspect like a suspect. Whether you're rude or polite about it, I should be able to tell you suspect them from reading what you say about them. I'm waiting for your big reads wall at this point to see what you really feel."

Was particularly interesting. Who does Shadow suspect in this game?

[Desperado]

@ Tammy: Which scumflip would be more damaging for the other, Generic or Shadow?

@ Empire: I don't mind.

[Desperado]

On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Generic look if we lynched Shadow and they flipped scum?
On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Shadow look if we lynched Generic and they flipped scum?

[Desperado]

On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Generic look if we lynched Shadow and they flipped scum?
On a scale of 1-10, how scummy would Shadow look if we lynched Generic and they flipped scum?

I haven't drawn a connection between generic and shadoweh and would be surprised if they were scum together based on their interactions right now.

I thought you were town reading generic though?

Wow, I missed that that 2nd paragraph was about peace.

I am reading Generic town but you aren't, I was just trying to gauge the hierarchy of your reads

[Desperado]

Gaiden yelled at him for AtEing because that's not really useful to town in any way whatsoever. He told him to step up his game in town and aimed to antagonize him a bit by telling him to step it up. I actually liked that quite a bit!

I feel like he took the antagonism too far, and I feel like the tone of his post was geared more towards pushing Generic's buttons than getting him to step his game up.

I haven't finished rereading yet, but Desperado what is your problem with me and what about anything makes it sound like I'm scum with Generic? It's neat that you brought up that quote because I have no idea where your pot shots at me are coming from. I was going to say something already when I noticed you left me out of the mystical 'townblock' (which is a concept that needs to die) but you've upgraded it to 'so why aren't you voting me' territory.

Although speaking of Pillboy, as weird as you're beinbg, I don't want to vote you. I get alot of flack for 'using AtE' too when I'm just saying how I feel. I'm telling you that playing like everyone else is the enemy is going to get you lynched, and from my viewpoint that would be a waste for all of us.

#1 I misread something Tammy said in an earlier post and corrected my mistake in #222. Maybe you should have finished rereading before flipping out.
#2 I wasn't taking any pot shots at you. Tammy and Emp both had you as town and I wanted to know why, and then I read the link Emp provided and commented on it.
#3 We still don't know who you suspect and given the town meta that Emp provided I find that problematic.

[Desperado]

Desperado: That doesn't answer my question at all. Why did YOU think that I was scum with Generic? You don't just leave someone out of your fave town buddies then question the people who are town reading them about what's up with them unless YOU think there's something wrong with them. And none of those reasons you gave answer my question, unless you mean how you misconstrued something Tammy said, which again doesn't answer why you were pairing us to begin with.

I don't think you're scum with Generic. You were null and I wanted to know why Tammy and Emp had you as town. Tammy started talking about you and then switched to Peace in the following paragraph, drawing connections to Generic, who were both townreads for me.

Why are you overreacting to something that I've already admitted was a mistake and wasn't even a serious FOS to begin with?

I feel like he took the antagonism too far,

What would've been a more acceptable level of antagonism?

None. If his goal was to get Generic to shape up and stop AtEing, flatly accusing him of AtEing and inviting him to self-vote was a really odd course of action.

I feel like the tone of his post was geared more towards pushing Generic's buttons than getting him to step his game up.

What's the difference?

One is more likely to produce a positive reaction than the other.

Nacho and Tammy: This doesn't look like scumGeneric from Red Wedding, agree/disagree?

Desperado, your current reasons for Generic being town are this and town-flail. I don't think that not acknowledging misreps that you've made is town-flail; I think that the "vote me and see the truth of this game" is town-flail, but you're picking up on Gen-town too early and not for good reason.

Says you. I saw a difference in Gen's reaction to a 1v1 as early page three. His posture and disposition in the argument with Mara was completely different than in Red Wedding.

Peace's Generic questioning looked really town to me,

Why?

Because his questioning appeared to be geared towards discerning Generic's alignment--in contrast to Gaiden's fan flaming in particular.

I am reading Generic town but you aren't, I was just trying to gauge the hierarchy of your reads

This line of questioning seems useless. What did you expect to gain from your questions about Shadoweh-Generic? Why wasn't "probably on the same team" good enough for you?

To better understand Tammy's mindset and figure out which read I would have to talk her out of first.

[Desperado]

Nacho: Gaiden claims now that he agreed with generic's early play, but there's no indication of that in #188. He had an opportunity to give a read that he says he had at the time, but chose to forego that and chastise Generic for AtEing instead. This isn't town behavior.

Re: Peace, I don't have much more for you. He is doing his own thing and not really giving a shit what anyone thinks of him. He acknowledges that his style often gets him wagoned but doesn't compromise because that's how he finds success.

[Desperado]

Yes but it supports my read over yours. You thought his original comment was genuine and I didn't. We now know that it wasn't.

[Desperado]

He hasn't contradicted himself?

He didn't give a read when he attacked Generic. I said it was scummy at the time. Now he's just confirmed that he did have a read and didn't give it.

[Desperado]

Nacho: Want to pick up where we left off yesterday?

And 508 is a good start in what sense?

[Desperado]

kuribo replaces SXTLHGaiden.

This is good, kuribo's an open book

[Desperado]

Or it's because you're scum.

Unvote
Vote: Purple Shoe

[Desperado]

kuribo is town then?

Thus far this is the town Kuribo I'm familiar with, yeah. As soon as he starts supporting something monumentally stupid, then I'll know for sure he's town. That'll probably happen tomorrow.

[Desperado]

What's giving you town vibes?

[Desperado]

I don't think Kuribo did anything wrong in outing an Alt that mutley admits had been alt-slipped all over the site and who had the same personal information as his main. He wasn't making an attempt to hide, so the self-righteous indignation is way over the top.

Mutley is still scum.

[Desperado]

Nacho: are you seriously townreading mutley after WWE? I trusted you there and I can see now what you were saying, and I also followed a newbie where he trolled hard and Thor got him mislynched D1, and I'm just not seeing any of that here.

[Desperado]

Nacho: are you seriously townreading mutley after WWE? I trusted you there and I can see now what you were saying, and I also followed a newbie where he trolled hard and Thor got him mislynched D1, and I'm just not seeing any of that here.

i haven't townread him this game, no.

Oh, I think I misinterpeted #825

[Desperado]

I didnt say you should be town reading you just wondering why you thought I was scum!

Oh and desp trying to meta me based on level of trolling is bad. That comes from my mood

Also what is beetle juicing?

I'm not meta'ing you based on level of trolling. I'm meta'ing you based on the level of content spread amongst the trolling.

[Desperado]

The level of trolling has remained consistent. In WWE and that Newbie you messed around and provided some content whilst trolling, and here you have not.

And if you were town I don't think you'd have any problem replacing out "for the sake of your replacee"--it's just one mislynch, right? You're scum.

[Desperado]

Marble: Can you put some effort into your case on me and highlight which posts beyond 222 look like scum posts and what my scum approach is? I've been ignoring your FOS because it never progressed beyond a flat "he's scum," but it's difficult to defend myself against vague/generic accusations. Re: 222, why is it somewhat scummy" to have asked Tammy about her reads?

Nacho: Whenever you decide you want to get scum today I'm keeping your seat on the Shoe wagon warm. He's still scum and I can't believe we're letting him get away with it. I'm not surprised that mutley disappeared again as soon as the pressure was off his slot.

[Desperado]

Nacho I'm pretty sure I'm getting FOSed for trying to work with my townblock. The only post marble could point out amongst all of my scum posts was me asking Tammy to explain her reads more clearly.

[Desperado]

My reason for Generic town was that his disposition in a 1v1 was noticeably different from what he did in RW with Metal Sonic.

Yeah, I never engaged Gaiden...because he fucking disappeared, then prod dodged, then self-voted, then replaced out.

When my scumread replaced out and became kuribo I unvoted because I'm confident in my ability to read kuribo.

I didn't reach out to Mala to stop scumreading generic because that would have been interfering with their process. Don't you think it's better if they sort each other organically?

Why are you reading mutley as town now?

[Desperado]

Yes I did, then a bunch of other stuff happened and Generic was still town.

Neither of them is in danger of being lynched right now so why should I be wasting time convincing Mala of something that isn't going to be relevant today in any case?

And I'd rather not guess, so how about you just tell me. Or quote the post where you already explained it.

[Desperado]

Deadline is in less than a day, you don't start a new wagon if you don't have the momentum for it. Sometimes you have to compromise, go with what the best lynch you can get is, trust your town reads and hope for the best.

There's still time/support for a Shoe lynch.

[Desperado]

Nacho you don't think that desperados reaching out to me about his reads seemed townish? I just liked the "I'm trying to figure out which read to talk Tammy out of thing" :/

that was really cool until he never tried to talk you out of them.

I didn't need to because she hasn't made a push on Generic or Peace since then.

And I'm not claiming until someone not on the wagon asks for it.

[Desperado]

I didn't need to because she hasn't made a push on Generic or Peace since then.

You don't just interact with your townblocks when they are doing things you don't like.

Do I need to quote myself interacting with tammy and empire on things other than generic and peace? Where are you going with this?

Tammy and Marble are both voting me despite diametrically opposed viewpoints on my interaction with Tammy, Bert is sheeping...the wagon is a disgrace and we should be lynching shoe.

[Desperado]

April Wingate, Town Self-Watcher

I see who visits me every night.

[Desperado]

This is the part where you all unvote and vote Shoe