Open 521: Jungle Republic (Alright. We'll call it a draw)

[elleheathen]

Haiguis! <3

Gonna do a read through and get up-to-date!

[elleheathen]

You interrupted my Bingo game for

this

?!

Okay, but no, seriously.

I really, really dislike the newbie card - whether it's new here or new altogether - saying that you're new under any circumstance when your join date and lack of meta is blatantly obvious always gives me an immediate scum feel - but at the same time, reading through it all looks like some really opportunistic lynching up in hurr.

However. A few things...

I did find it a little weird that Fuzzy had no problem repeatedly defending his misrep over the newbieisms

but

didn't want to answer Gnomeo's question regarding the amount that he's played. When he finally gets prodded enough to answer it, he doesn't. Instead of an answer, we get a regaling of the glory of RP mafia days when it would have been really simple to just give us a guesstimate on the number of games he's played.

Further, his post in 99 stuck out to me if only because he calls out Ace in it for not answering his questions - when in the same exact post he says he's not going to answer the above question. With that said, there was a lot of focus over him either being or not being a legit newbie (and he certainly doesn't help himself in his explanations) but I get a null read from this because he gave the reasoning that he wanted to end the pointless line of questioning and besides his explanation to the prodding of that question, he actually does stop answering the newb-circle-questions.

Still, I get a pretty decent scum vibe from Fuzzy, though it has more to do with the

way

he says things than the things he actually says. Anytime I see someone preceding half their statements with truth-saying, I expect what comes after it to be false. I noticed it a few times and shrugged it off but after an ISO, I couldn't let the following feel go because:

Sixteen times man!?

(35x2, 56, 66, 93, 129, 172, 185, 192x2, 208x2, 222x2, 224, 233)

How many times do you need to put a precursor of 'Honestly' or 'to be honest' to make what you say seem like anything but a lie?

I'm not lying guys, look, I said honest!

Sixteen times. Yes, yes - I understand this is a common enough saying but that's the feeling

I

personally get from it.

All in all - Fuzzy I have as

leaning

scum - but I think a lot of that may be due to what is starting to look like an 'easy lynch' target - which is probably the only thing keeping me from adding my vote to the above, at least for the time being.

Fuzzy, if you

are

town - do me a favor and either spell check or maybe just reread your posts before posting so that they're clearer - and less likely to be misinterpreted, if possible.

More to come after I get some noms.

[elleheathen]

ferret - Gives me the impression of someone that will be slyly throwing out little tidbits for someone else to pick up on as scummy as opposed to spelling it out himself - as if trying to stay under the radar. While it gives me a bit of a scummy feel, I wouldn't necessarily peg it as definite scum

yet

, either.

I can't really explain why other than a feeling but his posting seems really awkward to me. Like, he gets a naked vote tossed his way, a few follow it and while ferret says to 'pile on the votes' as if he is town and isn't phased by the pressure, the phrasing of his questions regarding the votes seem very... idk, panicy?

When he puts fuzzy at L:1, he follows the post up with a 'oh but don't claim fuzzy!' post as if to get cred - and I wouldn't normally pinpoint that as odd if it wasn't for fuzzy making it damn clear what he would have claimed previous to that - and besides that, at this point, would anyone be likely to claim anything

other

than VT? C'mon now.


So, in fairness, this extends as well to baldeagle, who did the same with the warning of 'ohyeah don't claim unless intent is given'. And the back and forth process for him on fuzzy seems really... forced.

This is what his ISO looks like to me, regarding fuzzy:

Fuzzy is so uptight.
Nowait fuzzy is newbtown.
Oooh naked vote based on misrep!
But let's cover that by saying it's only a temporary vote.
Reaffirm that is was a pressure vote? I think so!
I think fuzzy is scum again but I won't vote him.
Ohwait, I can blame it on the newbcard, I'll vote it!
If I state he's at L:1 an hour after putting him there, this will definitely net me towncred.
You're back to being newbtown and genuine, fuzzmuffin!

Granted, I can't say that my reaction would have been much different (at least in regards to the back and forth of whether he was scummy or not) had I been here through the whole week of it rather than reading it now as a whole - I think it's just the way it's posted that feels very off. I think the weird vibe I get from it is that it looks like bussing with the intent of (and is giving excuses for) removing the vote.

Those are my reads as of now, but then - I may have to go back and ISO some more later.

As it stands, I'll place my vote

VOTE: ferret

Thurr. Something is off - must ferret it out.

[elleheathen]

I'm going back and forth on fuzzy. I just can't get a accurate read on him. I think it's best that we leave him be. Oh, elle, that was a pressure vote the whole time. That's why it was a "temporary" vote to see how fuzzy would respond to it. I can't say it was a pressure vote, then it would ruin the whole point of it.

Except that you voted and only

five minutes later

, you say it's a temporary vote - which is insinuating that it is a pressure vote - the same thing you're saying would 'ruin the whole point of it'.

[elleheathen]

SCUM: ferret, ace

Hmm.

I'm actually thinking ferret/BOOM.
Not only is this:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Yggdra Union

lynch all hydras

random and completely unhelpful considering the two wagons on the table but it looks like it's a scumbusser getting off that wagon and trying to take as many with them as they can.

I'll catch up and post thoughts later.

When you do, what's your read on ferret?

[elleheathen]

/can't deny

[elleheathen]

Hmm. Wouldn't have expected a fuzzy NK.
Might have to look into this - though I think it'll just have me wifom'ing all over the place.

[elleheathen]

Also:

@mod: v/la until the 10th

- really just a heads up that I have limited access as I'm visiting fam in canadialand until then - though ill still be posting daily, just from my phone

[elleheathen]

I don't have too much time to go back through the game for now because of my mid terms

but

I would probably say

scum is within

people who said that he's newb town or something.

-Aegina

So, I was kind of stumped after that NK - and this looked interesting. What was more interesting was that the people who call fuzzy town the most is between baldeagle and that other head of yours.

Althooooough, baldeagle was the only one to actually refer to fuzzy as 'newb town' (32, 94, 269) whereas Luciana only refers to him as town (36, 132, 288) as opposed to 'newb town', if that was the distinction you were trying to make?

[elleheathen]

I had you down for a two count for calling him town when I did a read-through. (246, 284)

[elleheathen]

You had to know I was going to ask:

What's the reasoning?

[elleheathen]

Aaaaand? He says ferret's

vibe

is 'a tiny bit scummy' and goes on to state why that isn't even worth a fos or vote - as it could just be misinterpretation.

[elleheathen]

Have to agree with the baldeagle issue - though, while I believe that he's an easy target, I also think that's something he's done himself as opposed to people using any of his noobisms against him. (Going to have to add all my made-up words to my wiki someday, lol). But yeah, he's flip flopping a lot between town and scum for me so idk atm.

Then again, this seems to be going a bit slow with little content so it's rough getting a good read on anyone. I'll go with this one, though. It's just a vibe but:

VOTE: Gnomeo

[elleheathen]

Oh, you mean the

point

where you try to misrep ace?

[elleheathen]

Reads and responses, incoming. This is just a prod dodge until morning when I can get to this without brain lag. <3

[elleheathen]

I love how people keep bringing up lurking in this game as some kind of justification for their votes - when almost everyone is contributing to this. I don't know if it's lurking so much as it's just having difficulty getting into this one, or more this:

I haven't really felt where I fit into any conversations, and nothing's really sticking out to me currently.

but we're only helping their wincon by contributing to it, not ours. And yes, I'm guilty of it, too.

So, first:

Okay, elle, you're one of my strongest townreads in this game. Work with me here.
Why did your gut ping on Gnomeo? Do you still think BOOM is scum? Can I have your two strongest scumreads and townreads please?

I'll start with Gnomeo.

Given my above position on lurking, if there was someone that was lurking that I wanted to see more from, it's him. So, part of it is pressure but it goes along with just this really weird vibe I get from what he

has

actually posted.

Maybe it's that his posting seems very... singular? (D1; Fuzzy, D2; Ace) I'd like it a lot more if there was actual content to go along with it but as it is, it seems - idk, I want to say 'forced' but that's not it - almost as if he doesn't want to call attention to himself by calling too many people out?

He actively ignores commenting on votes on him to continue this singular line -but again, weird vibe - Because I really like how he questions ace's reads list, here:

Would you say a random reads list without any reasoning is a scumtell? Because that's what you posted.
What's the point of your list if you don't give any reasons for your reads? You only talk about lurkers, baldeagles case and the people attacking it.

but dislike how it's followed up by:

I fail to see why town would present a reads list like yours.

when it's coming from someone who hasn't posted a reads list at all.

@Gnomeo: Considering you're focusing on ace now, do you think he's scum? Do you have a reads list to contribute to show what you think a towns reads list

should

look like?

In regards to BOOM, the main reason I thought they were scummy was because of what looked like a last-ditch-effort new wagon generator. So with ferret's flip, I'd normally have put him back to null - and if it were just DP, I probably would have - but the other half is Saki. And I'll never think of Saki as anything but scum. Saki plays a scum game no matter what alignment he rolls (quick-lynching, self-voting, lurksacking), and imo, plays against his wincon as town as if to strengthen his scum game. And I don't think the quick-hammer without a chance to claim should be disregarded solely on the 'that's his meta' factor - ever. Given that, I will never have a problem lynching him.

That said, the only other thing that makes me think of him as scummy now is the other heads response to this. DP knew going into this how Saki plays so him saying that he 'tried to restrain Saki' from doing what Saki normally does regardless of alignment, comes off as scummy to me if only because I feel like the only reason to

restrain

him, would be if they were scum trying not to appear scum. The only thing that makes me question it is that DP states that he hoped because they were hydraing together that Saki wouldn't do that - but then, I'd think that might be something you'd work out beforehand.

@ those reading BOOM as town: Why?

I found that really surprising, especially from Yggdra Union. I was reading that hydra as mostly town up until that. Coming from TIP, it was less surprising because I could definitely see Klick (now TIP) as scum if just for the self-vote at L:2. I think I'd have been more inclined to let that go if it wasn't for the fact that Klick made it look like he was self-voting and giving up but then came back later saying he was doing it to provoke a reaction.

Now, I think we all thought that fuzzy's NK was weird but combined with the above and the fact that fuzzy's main case was against klick, all I can surmise from it is that either:

This kill was because of that main case on Klick and didn't want to see it repeated on D2 or that the kill was just because they were going for who was most likely to be considered town, if only 'newbtown'. I'm leaning the former.

The more I think about it, the more sketchy I think this might be - and that one of the above, if not all, are badnewsbears.

As for my top top for town: I have...
no
freaking
clue.

[elleheathen]

I think boom is town solely because of meta
Elle, you can be town too; help me out here?

What meta of his is it that makes you think town? The meta that I know of, which I address above, would lead to null because he does it as both town and scum. So what has he done here that he has a meta for being solely town instead of null?

I'm not sure what you're asking me to 'help you out' with when I've already given my read of BOOM - unless you're actually asking me to convince you that I'm town? In which case my response is: and lol.

[elleheathen]

That would probably mean a lot more... if I didn't have both of you as possible scum.

Why I would 'trust you on' anything when I have you as a scum read, against one of my other scum reads ... idek. Especially when you can't actually answer what specific meta it is that you're referring to that makes you think he's town.

I give four possibilities as to who I think could be scum, and you want to move on to my nulls? Interesting.

VOTE: TIP

[elleheathen]

444

[elleheathen]

Uh no - let's not speak for elle. The above was a reference to my post in 444, where it explains my thinking on why I might find TIP scummy, here:

@ those reading BOOM as town: Why?

I found that really surprising, especially from Yggdra Union. I was reading that hydra as mostly town up until that. Coming from TIP, it was less surprising because I could definitely see Klick (now TIP) as scum if just for the self-vote at L:2. I think I'd have been more inclined to let that go if it wasn't for the fact that Klick made it look like he was self-voting and giving up but then came back later saying he was doing it to provoke a reaction.

Now, I think we all thought that fuzzy's NK was weird but combined with the above and the fact that fuzzy's main case was against klick, all I can surmise from it is that either:

This kill was because of that main case on Klick and didn't want to see it repeated on D2 or that the kill was just because they were going for who was most likely to be considered town, if only 'newbtown'. I'm leaning the former.

The post is pretty self-explanatory. I can't fathom why anyone is reading BOOM as town so I ask the people reading BOOM as town, why they're reading BOOM as town. As it is, without explanation, I find these reads scummy, as they seem out of nowhere. I find it surprising from Yggdra, who I was reading as town, but not so much from TIP/klick slot, who had been flipflopping for me, and state the reasons why I could actually see this as a scum move from TIP.

@TIP, I understand the WIFOM. If you'd actually read the post, you'd see my own version of the WIFOM for that and what I thought that night kill could mean.

Your response in 447 made me think you'd actually

read

the whole post - and was disregarding what I'd said about you/klick slot, as opposed to scanning the read on BOOM. So when you came back with 'trust what your scumread says', it pinged really weird - but if you didn't read why I think you were possibly scummy, it'd at least explain that part of the response. I'm not sure yet if I should believe that or not. But I suppose that might explain the other ping on why you would want to redirect to my null reads when given four scum reads, if you hadn't read any of them besides the one you addressed with BOOM.

Ffffff.

Hrm.

IF

that were true, that would make me think of you as helpful town trying to get discussion going. So. Before going to my nulls reads, what do you think of my two other reads in that post?

[elleheathen]

Okay.

That being said, my vote stays.

[elleheathen]

Unless you're going to specify what meta he has that clearly differentiates this as town play as opposed to scum, saying that is pointless.
My read on BOOM is in 444.

[elleheathen]

UNVOTE: .

[elleheathen]

Help me out here. Why do you have BOOM as town?

[elleheathen]

Idk about the supposed 'scumslips' yet - I need to go reread all that through again - but what I didn't like was that they felt the need to point out their own supposed 'townslip', regardless if it came from a different head of the hydra. That, and the fact they've ignored my question on BOOM twice now. (Unless I missed it - because refreshing with 2 bars sucks - so I'll revisit this again later today when I'm back at my desktop)

[elleheathen]

Ugh - I don't think I really like either of these lynches - not enough to put my vote on them anyway.
Speaking of:

@mod: Possible to get a vote count soon?

Pretty pretty please. Sorry to be a bother! D:

In regards to baldeagle, I can't tell if he's scum and bad or town and bad. Normally with a slot like this, I would lynch it regardless because it's so unhelpful and distracting to town, even if it is town but after losing two towns already... idk. I'm not great at number crunching odds. The sketchiest thing to date is the vote movement to Yggdra in the space of one post between. (And that's only the sketchiest because I can't tell if his other shit is actually genuinely not understanding wtf he's doing or the things he's saying or if it's purposefully done and playing dumb on after.)

One thing I'd love a response to though is:

If I was scum, I would probably want to be buddies with people that I'm familiar with. People like TiP, BOOM (I know one of the heads) and elle.

You're familiar with me? One, from? And two, then what's your read on me and why?

Yggdra, on the other hand, I'm not sure of either. Not only do I not like their pointing out of their own 'townslips' as I stated before but I don't like their whole trying to confirm themselves as town based on the supposed (and faulty)logic, either. That, and the fact that they keep going on about how people would have to disprove their logic on how these slips could be irrelevant in order to lynch them, when really, all I have to do is code a vote on them to decide whether or not to lynch them.

I don't have to do anything more than feel like they're lying about whether or not they thought the game was 13 players or not to decide for myself whether or not I think that's a scumslip or just a mistake.

The problem being is that I just don't have a good enough feel on whether or not that was an actual scumslip or not to vote it.

That, and the fact they've ignored my question on BOOM twice now.

I believe that I told you two days ago that I would be answering that today.

I ISO'ed twice and still don't see this - but it's a moot point because I'm not trying to make a case on it, I just wanted an answer. Ty for the answer. :p

Right now, I'm just trying to figure our between the two if either flip would give me more information than the other - and if it would be worth risking it.

[elleheathen]

<333

[elleheathen]

Elle, didn't you replace in one of my games before? I swear, I remember you joining one of my games hence why I was familiar.

I don't believe I've played a game with you, no, hence my asking. So, more false statements?

Yggdra, on the other hand, I'm not sure of either. Not only do I not like their pointing out of their own 'townslips' as I stated before

The sad thing is though, I don't see the "townslip" myself, because he never told me.

I believe it was in reference to your mafia daytalk confusion. I don't know what to think of the 'townslip' itself but it just the fact that I get a weird feeling from a hydra pointing out their other heads supposed townieness from a slip that could have just as easily been planned to be exactly that or could be just a genuine response. But I'm not sure either way, so 'weird feeling'.

but I don't like their whole trying to confirm themselves as town based on the supposed (and faulty)logic, either.

Exactly which part of our logic is faulty?
Why can't town try to confirm himself as town? Do you think try to confirm self as town is pure scum move?
Mafia is not a game you play by textbook.
Sure, there are some guidelines to pick out general stuff, but the "abnormalities" are bound to happen.
I.E. The textbook teaches that scums are usually self-concious. Well, guess what? Town can be self-concious too. The textbook teaches that scums are survivalistic. Well, guess what? Town can be survivalistic too.

I'm only going to address the first two parts here, because I agree with the rest. In regards to town confirming, I think it's obviously something you should do if you can. However, that's where I find yours lacking.

I get the point you're trying to make, yes. But the faulty part is this:

Also I'll be confirming myself as town now.

622 implies that I wolf-slipped.
635 implies that I mafia-slipped.

Regardless of which alignment indicative slip it may be, if I were to think your first 'scumslip' was an actual slip and that you used your 13 player reasoning as an excuse to cover it up then the first would make you scum and the second could just be the other alignment trying to find other things to push your lynch.
There's a lot of WIFOM to be had in all of it - and a lot of possibilities in between but none of them are town confirming. All it does confirm is that the likelihood of BOTH of them being 'scumslips' is no likelihood at all.

That, and the fact that they keep going on about how people would have to disprove their logic on how these slips could be irrelevant in order to lynch them,

It is absolutely necessary that people needing to disprove my logic, because I want to know what their thought process are.
When people have an opinion, they need a train of thoughts to reach it. By asking people to challenge my logic, I can see what's going on ppl's head, and can see if their opinions are well-organized, or just simple came out of the blue for opportunistic jump. Follow me here?

Wanting to know what their thought processes and/or reasonings are for voting you is different from having to disprove your logic, as I explained what I'd have easily done had I been more convinced that either one of those slips was

actually

a slip. Either way, reworded like that it doesn't sound as odd as it had before.

I ISO'ed twice and still don't see this - but it's a moot point because I'm not trying to make a case on it, I just wanted an answer. Ty for the answer. :p

How did you miss it

Anyway, now that I gave you the answer, what's your opinion on it?

-L

I didn't miss the answer, hence me thanking you for it. What I was referencing, and quoted to in my post, was this:

That, and the fact they've ignored my question on BOOM twice now.

I believe that I told you two days ago that I would be answering that today.

I didn't see you saying that the read would be provided at any time, even after ISO'ing twice.
And as for my opinion on it, I don't agree, especially with the last part (as I've already given my read on BOOM) but it makes me feel a lot less sketchy than your original naked read of BOOM did.

[elleheathen]

Slips are the total opposite of WIFOM because WIFOM is done on purpose of creating confusion, while slips are unconscious act that are not done on purpose.
Therefore, there can be no WIFOM in slips, because by their natures they can't coexist.

Errr...

I'm not relating the slip and the WIFOM. I was stating that there was a lot of WIFOM to be had in whether or not it was a slip and what it would mean in either case.

Also I've done more than 13p thing to disprove that first one.

Check the link on Act 3 Scene 1.
The first "slip" is for one-antitown faction setup only.
In multiball, it's completely null.

That doesn't

disprove

that it's a slip or not. The only thing that can prove whether it's a slip or not is your flip. Your word is not proof.

Multiball doesn't change the possible slip, five scum is five scum. Your reasoning on the 13 player confusion is sound (and makes sense for why you were still looking for another townie), but that's up to us on whether we believe that reasoning or not.

1) Either we believe your reasoning that you thought there was 13 players and that's why you were still looking for one more town to be able to PoE
-or-
2) We don't believe that reasoning and think it's a scumslip that you're trying to cover up by saying that you thought it was a 13 player game.


The only thing that has been disproven is that some people are trying to push BOTH of these supposed scumslips - and BOTH of them do not work together. So while one of these slips

could

be a real slip, both of them are not. The good thing about this though, is that the people pushing both of them are wrong, and probably scum trying to (as you say) use terribad points to accuse you. But that still doesn't prove

your

alignment, only that you're likely not aligned with

them

.

Was it only baldeagle doing that?

Also you might have missed the promise thing because I didn't directly talk to you at that post, but I promised a town case in a post where I mention "little game."

Ahh, okay. Gotcha.

[elleheathen]

But that still doesn't prove your alignment, only that you're likely not aligned with them.

I want you to think carefully here.
In my case, "them" applies to both mafia and werewolf since I've been accused as slipping as both.
And since it proves that I'm not aligned with them,
If I'm not aligned with mafia and I'm not aligned with werewolf, then I'm aligned with ________ .
Also as I said, whether someone pushes whatever doesn't matter. The only thing that's important is that the accusations happened.

-L

The 'them' that I refer to there is in reference to your accusers in regards to the second slip.
It is outlining a suspicion that if, say, baldeagle (one of the accusers) is for example, mafia - that you were not mafia, but it doesn't rule out the possibility of you being a werewolf.

The factor of multiball

does matter.

Think of this logical process of how the slip happens.

1. A is scum.
2. A knows that there are 5 scums in their team.
3. A knows that town would be looking for 5 scums.
4. Since A knows that he's scum, it is likely for him to subconsciously think that he needs one less scum to find.

It looks fine so far, but here's where it becomes a problem.
This is multiball.
That means that A's team have

less than 5 members

.
In this game, there are either scumteam of two, or scumteam of three.
In order to call something like this a slip, there must be more than 1 "extra town to find" involved!

So what I'm trying to say is that it's possible to see it as a slip in town PoV, but if you look at the scum PoV, it is

not possible

for them to slip like that, because from town PoV there are 5 scum to hunt, but from scum PoV that's not the case, for they legitimately have to hunt for the other scumteam too.

This would all be relevant - IF it was about the number of scum.
It's not about the number of SCUM. The supposed slip was about the number of TOWN.
It wasn't about how many scums you were looking for, the slip was about how many town you thought there were.

Either way, you're frustrated on explaining this - as am I.
While I don't see what you're trying to get at (and maybe I'm just completely missing it), I think you're genuinely convinced that this is true just as much as I am on it not confirming you as town. Despite that, I don't think this is going to go anywhere productive because while in my mind, those points don't confirm you as town, I'm willing to concede enough as the argument itself makes me think of you as leaning more town than scum.

Yay?

I'm going to do another read-through and see if I can't get some better feels.

[elleheathen]

Then one claims and we're fucked

If scum claims Seer, the real Seer is forced to claim, and then it's just mountainous

So. What happened to this?

Mafia claims VT
Werewolf claims VT
VT claims VT
Seer claims VT
Soooo

Soooo if one claims seer, we lynch it anyway.
At least in baldeagle's case, if he's seer... as you say, 'we're fucked' anyway.

@elle: I remember you saying that you don't see baldeagle scum. Why?
To be honest, at first I thought of him as a lynchbait, but then I realized that fmpov about 56% of the playerlist excluding me are scum, and with some townreads I have, he might as well be scum.

-L

Originally:

In regards to baldeagle, I can't tell if he's scum and bad or town and bad. Normally with a slot like this, I would lynch it regardless because it's so unhelpful and distracting to town, even if it is town but after losing two towns already... idk. I'm not great at number crunching odds. The sketchiest thing to date is the vote movement to Yggdra in the space of one post between. (And that's only the sketchiest because I can't tell if his other shit is actually genuinely not understanding wtf he's doing or the things he's saying or if it's purposefully done and playing dumb on after.)

One thing I'd love a response to though is:

If I was scum, I would probably want to be buddies with people that I'm familiar with. People like TiP, BOOM (I know one of the heads) and elle.

You're familiar with me? One, from? And two, then what's your read on me and why?

When he came back and said he'd thought I joined one of his games (I haven't), it struck me as odd not because it was a lie but because to him, familiar = someone joined one of his games instead of knowing something about them or their meta?
Part of me still thinks that he's just clueless and using terms he doesn't understand, misreping without intent and an easy lynch target - but he could just as easily be scum doing it.

To answer the question in short, it's not that I don't see him as scum - more that I like to be more sure than 'he might as well be' to vote him.
However, it's a flip I wouldn't mind seeing because if he does flip scum, it'd give me a good enough gut read on TIP as his partner (a slot I'm super-conflicted on, atm), given the weird meta exchange/distancing/bussing that was going on between the two. (And yes, I know you have him as a town read.) But the reverse is true too and if he were to flip town, it'd clear up a lot of my gutpings on TIP, too.

We'll see...

VOTE: baldeagle

[elleheathen]

Still want to hear more from: Boom, Trumpet King, elle, Krazy, TIP, Om.

Hear more of?

[elleheathen]

What she asked is what do you want to hear about from those you mentioned.

-L

Scumreads.

My post is pretty self-explanatory.

I'm you're looking for a definitive answer to peg me in, it's : I can't tell one way or the other - 'bad town or bad scum'. Bad is bad. The only thing that changed from 654 where i state that I would normally lynch a slot like this

but

... is time and the preference of a flip over a no lynch.

[elleheathen]

WIFOM overload. Brain exploded. Re-reading, or I would be if it wasn't taking 234239 minutes to reload a page.

[elleheathen]

Hmm.

@Yggdra: Besides ace, who do you think is scum?

[elleheathen]

i'm good with this.

VOTE: krazey

i didn't catch the vote because I could see that coming from scum too but i figured 888 was the soft with the assurity there.

[elleheathen]

why is BOOM conftown again?

i think it may be a case of me just not wanting to relinquish what feels like my only sure read all game - so halp!

[elleheathen]

Gotcha.

Idk, I def agree on Alduskkel but TK?

I agree that the 'thrown in there' part of balds read looks like he's implicating TK - but the fact that it's Aldus who calls it out makes me iffy - could be bussing or could be trying to use that

to

implicate.

But then TK

is

on the town lynch and

not

on the mafia lynch, too.

If I amount the BOOM hammer on the town lynch to just Saki being Saki, I could get behind it a lot more as BOOM was the unwavering driver of the bald lynch. So yeah, there's that.

Hell, idk. This game has totalled my brain beneath the wifom.

I think I'd just agree more if it was Alduskkel before TK on the pref lynch order. But moot for the moment since we're going Krazy.

[elleheathen]

Nah, not what I meant.

It's

is

all pretty null, though - just me wifoming possibilites that end in agreeing that TK is probably > BOOM for scumspects but I'd rather see Alduskkel before TK.
And why I say moot - because we're going after Krazy and not much use atm since we don't know who will get NK'ed.

[elleheathen]

You so krazyyyyyyyy.

My money says Elle is easy-wagoning.

However, this part is probably true. I plan to sheep my town-read to easy-wagoning victory!

[elleheathen]

Isn't it obvious?
There's mafia in Aero/Om/Boom. (Probobly Aero)
-L

How so? You think Krazy was lying about his wolfreads?
His werewolf reads are between Me/Ald/Aero
His NO READS (mafia) are between Om/Boom/Union

[elleheathen]

@mod: Sorry Mhork! Shoulda pm'ed you the v/la - my bad! D:

Catching up.

[elleheathen]

Hasn't changed. It's still Ald over Aero.

In Krazy's first set of final reads he has me as a definite wolf and ald/aero as his potential wolves.
In Krazy's second set of reads, he narrows that down to say that he thinks someone on his wagon was wolf and puts it between ald/me.
I agree with this.

Unless one of them is bussing right now, I think it's Ald/Om for wolves.

But you have your 4 to lynch.

[elleheathen]

Wow, really? It takes this long to catch up on like 16 shortline posts?

Think you guys might be right.

[elleheathen]

944, 947 - Empty promises. Says night will give him time to ISO/provide stuff to 'convince us otherwise' but we see nothing of it come day.

991 - Votes BOOM as a wolf, who has already been cleared as wolf

This is either a really awful wolf move to try and end the game or a really awful town move from someone that hasn't actually read the game. Given the empty promises, I'm leaning the latter.

1014 - Boggles me.

VT is what I thought he was but I find it weird that it took that long for him to say that.

after reading, theres not much I can say to defend myself based on the way my predecessor played

What? The only reason I have been doubting that you're scum of either kind is precisely

because

of how your predecessor played and the fact that I've had TK as town. So, what do you mean by this?

and the ratio of scum and wolves to townspeople.

Is equal atm. What does this have to do with anything?

I guess you could say that if I had a power role or a teammate, I probably would have spent more time focusing on this game, but I don't.

... No matter what alignment you are, you

have

a teammate. A VT has a team, town - just because you don't know who they are doesn't mean you don't have a responsibility to that team. Which brings me to:

By voting me, you're screwing the town, pretty much, although I suppose anyone could say that.

No,

you're

screwing the town

if you're town

by flaking out and not helping us. If you're town, you didn't even read up enough to know that BOOM has been cleared by the seer, making your vote ridiculous if you're town because the only thing that BOOM can be atm is mafia, and if mafia dies right now, it's a werewolf win. Given that, the only way that it would be 'screwing the town' to vote you is if you were mafia.

But then, it's also this fact and the rest that make me think you might actually

be

town - because if you actually were a wolf, I feel like you'd have had these questions answered overnight by your wolf partner or that you'd have at least read up.
Also, another reason:

As for who I think is scum or wolves, just look at the wagon on me.

Is because he'd be implicating one of his wolfbuds here if he was wolf - it's not unheard of but I feel like he'd have provided reasons or ...idk, three reads if he were? Mostly a gut feel on this.

@Aero

- You said only two reads as to who could be scum or wolves. Why?

Idk - I see him as being either VT as he claims, or as mafia. Not werewolf.

The only way to play to his wincon as a sole surviving mafia is to claim VT and hope.
If he claims mafia, he would survive the lynch but it would give up any chance he has of winning.

So yeah, VT or mafia - neither of which I will be voting for.

[elleheathen]

Think Aero's at L-2, actually, since elle never voted him.

What's the rush?
Also, you're not waiting for me. Your fourth was BOOM.

[elleheathen]

^

Regardless of the claim, I think Aero is either town or mafia. We need to lynch

werewolf

.

So if he's mafia, his lynch right now = werewolf win right now

Or

If he's town and we lynch:
2 wolves / 2 town / 1 mafia

Means they win no matter what they kill in the night. They hit mafia and win or they hit town and win because they make up half the living players, with a town still alive:

2 wolves / 2 town
-or-
2 wolves / 1 town / 1 mafia

So no, you're not getting my vote - because I do not think he is a werewolf - and to have any hope of winning,

we need to lynch werewolf

.

The only ones I'm willing to vote for are my werewolf reads - Om or Ald.

Otherwise, you're waiting for BOOM.

[elleheathen]

Probably because

I don't think he is a wolf player.

[elleheathen]

VOTE: Om of the Nom

[elleheathen]

Also elle should be voting aero, because that way there's no chance of wolfhammer.

I won't put him in a position for

any

hammer.

[elleheathen]

It's pretty simple really.
I know that I'm town so wolves

have

to be between Aero/Om/Ald.
I have Aero as either town or mafia.
The two wolf reads I have are Om/Ald, who are both voting Aero.
I find it hard to believe that they'd be bussing the other at this stage.
It only reinforces my wolf reads on them.
So unless you're willing to compromise your vote on your second wolf read to Om, there's not much to talk about. I will not vote Aero today.
Not for a threat. Not for pressure to provide a claim he's already given. Not for fun. Not for a lynch.

[elleheathen]

You do realize that he's posting everywhere else, right?
The only way to check if he's mafia or not is to put him in freaking L-1 and ask for claim once again.
-L

I don't

care

if he's mafia or not - I don't want to lynch mafia right now and I don't think it's beneficial for wolves to know exactly who the mafia IS.
I want to lynch

werewolf.

[elleheathen]

There is.

If we lynch a townie right now and wolves hit the mafia at night, we lose.

[elleheathen]

2. I don't think elle is Aeronaut's partner, I think it's Om.

Not going to vote Om though since if it's elle/Aeronaut (seems plausible at this point given elle's defense) then they'll quickhammer him.

In the space of 35 posts, you've completely reversed your read. You say it's because of 'my defense' yet this not wanting to lynch Aero today was already well established when you gave your first read of scum Om.

So what changed?

[elleheathen]

What changed was that as of 1027 I wasn't aware of how uncompromising you were going to be about it; that became much more clear in the space between 1027 and 1062. Let me refer you to 1038, 1043, and 1046 (in response to 1044).

I mean, you're not even willing to cooperate with

Yggdra Union

, who we know to be a non-Werewolf, and likely non-Mafia too.

And yet, I state very clearly the only ones I'm willing to vote for in 1023 - and you even state in 1045 that you don't think I'll ever vote Aero, and it isn't a problem then.

But now suddenly because the tides have turned to Om, it's a problem. Why? Because you've stated Om as your second wolf-read and have to flail your way to find an excuse to change that read because you don't want to be held to it and be forced to bus your scumbuddy into the dirt.

And really, 'not willing to cooperate with Yggdra'? You do realize that's who I've been working with/sheeping for the later half of this game? But no, in this instance I'm not

cooperating

because I'm very convinced that it's Om. Just because Yggdra is town doesn't mean they're always right.

[elleheathen]

I need a case?

[elleheathen]

Whoops! Didn't think it'd been that long.

[elleheathen]

Aegina wants Om dead first, while I want Aero dead first.

How sure are you both on your Om vs Aero reads?

[elleheathen]

Actually, what bugs me is that I saw Aero post elsewhere, so he could be avoiding the game..

Damn it

Yeah, it's kind of killing me thinking of him as possible town but it still leaves the mafia possibility open.
His 1014 reads to me like a mafia that's giving up - but warning town that it's game over if we kill him.

[elleheathen]

Om I still prefer over elle for the 2nd wolf given that neither Om nor Aeronaut seemed clear on the Seer results (meaning that neither one could fill the other in), although elle's defense of Aeronaut gives me pause.

Okay. But how does being on 3 town wagons differentiate between wolf and mafia?

Especially considering that he's not on

either

of the mafia lynches?

Your second point though is interesting. Hrm.

Also, my POE has been stated - along with exactly why I'm against Aeronaut lynch.

[elleheathen]

What?

You say TK/Aero is wolf because he was on three town wagons.
I ask how being on three town wagons differentiates between wolf and mafia, if it were even proof at all that he was scum of some kind.
Especially because he wasn't on either of the mafia wagons, which would make me think

mafia

more than wolf.

Then I say that your second point is interesting - where you bring up a point about the seer results and them not filling each other in (ie. aero voted boom and Om accused Yggdra.)

How is that in any way me saying that I'm wolf with Om exactly?

[elleheathen]

Suggesting to me that Aeronaut is not a Wolf is equivalent to suggesting that you and Om are the Wolves.

I've been suggesting long before this that Aero is not a wolf - and that I had the wolves as you and Om.

This is because I know YU, Boom, and myself are not Wolves; if you further assume that Aeronaut is not a Wolf, that leaves

only

you and Om.

Again, no - it leaves you and Om.
Your second point about neither of them having any sync with the seer issue had me entertaining the idea that it might be Om/Aero - because I can't decide from your recent posting whether it's a hesitancy to bus your scum buddy (Om) or town indecision.

But the definite there is still Om.

And the fact that you're trying to make it out as though I haven't been saying it's you and Om all along - lol, really?

Let me refer you to 917, 999, 1018, 1023, 1043.

[elleheathen]

And suddenly, elle being afraid to call Aldus wolf when she eliminated Aero makes this completely suspicious.

How am I being afraid to call Ald wolf when I've been

calling him wolf all along.

[elleheathen]

Hi. this is more viable. I know I voted for EVERYONE today, but its unbearable to see someone actually argue for someone as wolf without calling the ONLY OTHER OPTION a wolf as well.

Where am I arguing that Aero is not a wolf.
Again:

You say TK/Aero is wolf because he was on three town wagons.
I ask how being on three town wagons differentiates between wolf and mafia, if it were even proof at all that he was scum of some kind.
Especially because he wasn't on either of the mafia wagons, which would make me think

mafia

more than wolf.

That's me saying that he's MAFIA.

And asking why Ald thinks that Aero being on three town wagons distinguishes that as wolf instead of mafia, when Aero didn't lynch any of the mafia.

Which would make me think MAFIA, not wolf.

Meaning again, that Aero is mafia.

And Om and Ald are wolves.

Read the thread.

[elleheathen]

^That's unusual.

@elle: Okay, you obviously have no clue what I'm talking about. You told me to consider that Aeronaut might not be a wolf. If that's true, that means you and Om have to be wolves, which I don't think is the case.

No, I asked you why that made you think wolf when it made me think mafia.

[elleheathen]

And Om and Ald are wolves.

Read the thread.

Let us lynch om

for great justice

-Aegina

Yesplz.

[elleheathen]

@mod - Gone for the weekend, V/LA until Sunday night

[elleheathen]

Same. Now vote.

[elleheathen]

Wtf does it matter if BOOM counters it or not - even if they did, it's a counter between two people who cannot be wolves! And the only people to care about who is

actually

mafia right now is wolves. But then, it's a good excuse to keep up your stalling, I suppose.

[elleheathen]

What do I gain from stalling?

You mean besides what I already mentioned here, 5 days and like 6 pages of stalling ago:

2. I don't think elle is Aeronaut's partner, I think it's Om.

Not going to vote Om though since if it's elle/Aeronaut (seems plausible at this point given elle's defense) then they'll quickhammer him.

In the space of 35 posts, you've completely reversed your read. You say it's because of 'my defense' yet this not wanting to lynch Aero today was already well established when you gave your first read of scum Om.

So what changed?

What changed was that as of 1027 I wasn't aware of how uncompromising you were going to be about it; that became much more clear in the space between 1027 and 1062. Let me refer you to 1038, 1043, and 1046 (in response to 1044).

And yet, I state very clearly the only ones I'm willing to vote for in 1023 - and you even state in 1045 that you don't think I'll ever vote Aero, and it isn't a problem then.

But now suddenly because the tides have turned to Om, it's a problem. Why?

Because you've stated Om as your second wolf-read and have to flail your way to find an excuse to change that read because you don't want to be held to it and be forced to bus your scumbuddy into the dirt.

Well, besides that: Your best chance at winning as a wolf is to stall the game here in the hopes of a no lynch.

[elleheathen]

Seriously?
Why is SV not dead yet?

lol, because we're waiting on

BOOM

[elleheathen]

[elleheathen]

If I'm wrong - I'm wrong.
But I'd rather be wrong then kick myself in the ass for voting against what I've thought all damn game.

VOTE: Ald

[elleheathen]

UNVOTE:

[elleheathen]

Geeeez.

[elleheathen]

I should have known with Llama's 1201 but

VOTE: LlamaFluff

[elleheathen]

Oh joy.

[elleheathen]

Yeah - that'd be great.
Except that voting No Lynch is offering Llama a free chance for 3p lylo.

It's essentially what it's going to come down to anyway, unless Llama wants to out themselves with their draw vote, because it's that or they get the same option when the timer runs out.

And voting to no lynch while knowing who the wolf is

is

playing against my wincon - and while it would save time because it's inevitably going to come down to waiting out the timer otherwise (because Ald can't vote as it's against

his

wincon), I'm a stubborn ass that would rather wait out the timer than put us in a position to actively help Llama win, even if it's a long shot. But the fact that they're still maintaining that I'm not town makes that long shot a possibility they're hoping to benefit from.

The only way a draw would work for all parties is if it were a unanimous draw request, with all four of us agreeing to a draw and ending the game

in this phase.

[elleheathen]

If you were a wolf, would you nightkill me?

Hell yes I would!

And bah, my curiosity is beating out my stubbornness.

Here,

VOTE: Draw

[elleheathen]

AHA! lol

That was rough at the end there. First time as town that I had to be really careful not to be tripped up - because I felt like everyone was leading me. Ahaha. Glad I stuck with my gut, though.

Good game guys - and thanks Mhork.

<3