Mini 1496: The Cash Cabd (Game Over)

[Brian Skies]

Woot! RVS stage.

I'm allergic to kittens so...

VOTE: artemiskitty

[Brian Skies]

Anyway. This is my warning to all hydras. I'm treating you like any other player. I won't accept excuses like:

a) the other head read it.
b) I didn't say that.
c) He thinks x but I think y.
d) I don't read the game but he does.

or others in a similar vein. You're warned.

@Hydras:
1) Are you ok with this?
2) Do any of you think they will do this?
3) Do you consider you'll be fully committed to the game despite having a fallback guy who can carry you even if you don't pay attention?
4) Do you have a regular mean to confer with your other head?

@Non-hydras:
What are your opinions about what I just said?

"Even though you have two heads, I will treat you as one entity." I like this.

I agree and will also be treating them as such. Regardless of who performs it, a scum move is a scum move and will affect my read accordingly. If you can't properly coordinate your heads, that's on you, not the town.

[Brian Skies]

it's my scumday today!

Happy scumday! Even though I'm not entirely sure what that means.

[Brian Skies]

also, i actually

did

accidentally give you an answer to (1) so consider that a freebie. (

and i have absolutely no idea how you inferred it incorrectly

)

This.

[Brian Skies]

I believe I am. I'm concerned that a lot of noise about hydrae in the game will distract from focusing on the entire player list, and I see you as the source of a lot of noise about hydrae in the game.

I agree. All that needs to be said is: "Hi, I'm HumblePoirot. To make things easier for me, I am going to treat each hydra as a single entity, regardless of the heads involved." End.

You don't need their approval to read them the way you want to read them. They don't need to tell you how they're going to use the hydra. It is meaningless fluff.

Your questions don't seem to benefit the town in any way and have almost no real usage, if any, in sorting out the hydras.

[Brian Skies]

Brian Skies concerns me a little. He comes off rather agreeable.

This is only my second game, and my first dealing with hydras. I liked HP's logic in dealing with hydras, especially since there are so many of them (almost a quarter of the player base).

But I never said I liked his questions. They're pretty useless in my opinion and I don't see how they can help us scumhunt. After browsing other games, I feel like a lot of useless pages will be produced from arguing about them.

his reaction to hydras looked over the top and fake. i understand that he linked some game with hydras that he modded and this was apparently bad for whatever reason, but it still looked fake, and i could see him using that as an excuse to berate hydras and pretend he's doing something. i also dislike the questions he asked because they serve no purpose in determining anything, and only add to my suspicion that he's trying to look like he's doing something when he's not actually doing anything

I originally thought it was for self-gratification and an attempt at a townread. However, I like the logic in this post. I'll read through that link later.

UNVOTE: artemiskitty
VOTE: Humble Poirot

Also, I may be a new player, but please don't treat me as one. I don't like crutches.

[Brian Skies]

oh and forgot

Claim: PGO

What is this? And why are you claiming?

[Brian Skies]

Well, I'll be reading through that link as soon as it's posted. =(

[Brian Skies]

I played two games of mafia at a house party a few years ago. Although, my success as mafia in the first game got me mislynched early on in the second game. So I don't really count the second game very much (I stopped caring and didn't pay attention).

I watched a few games from Koibu on twitch.tv. Although, they rely a lot on meta, so unfamiliar players like me who aren't familiar with it and don't have the time to figure it out get lost easily. This is what made me want to play Mafia online. But, I don't like to list this as experience, just pure curiosity and entertainment.

The same day I signed up for this site, I signed up for Epic Mafia. I played that for a while before my first game, but haven't played much of it since. I'd consider myself a logical player. But since Epic Mafia players tend to rely on gut checks and bullshit scumtells with an extreme lack of information, I tend to get lynched a lot (as both town and mafia; fuck WIFOM, seriously).

Other than that, this is the second game I started.

Irrelevant: So, how do you all feel knowing you have a great opportunity in shaping (warping) my play style?

[Brian Skies]

Also, I'm digging the Baccano!

I like you already! Had this avatar for weeks, and you're the first one to mention anything.

[Brian Skies]

Don't know who the rail tracer is.

[Brian Skies]

@ SoS: Not what I meant, but thanks anyways.

As per the Humble Poirot link, I'm still reading it. I've read up to page 23. Although, if there's anything I don't like at this point, it's the massive wall-to-wall posting. Not necessarily the hydra itself.

Ugh! More reading to do...

[Brian Skies]

Also, the game takes place in 2011 if I'm reading timestamps correctly. So I don't know if it's outdated or not. At some point early on in the game, a player mentions there are three scum (I haven't actually read far enough to confirm this, but the other players seem to be following the same logic). Is this common for all mini-closed set-ups?

Regarding our set-up:
What assumptions can be safely made?
What assumptions can we not make?

[Brian Skies]

Slow game is slow.

isaac = Brian Skies?

Yes. My avatar is of the Baccano! character Isaac Dian.

[Brian Skies]

And yet, you didn't mention this. You only mention it now.

woah. you're really reading the whole thing? I'm so sorry for you.

I don't mind being called "agreeable" as long as it's referring to the correct things. I'd rather nip a potential problem in the bud than getting misrepresented down the road.

And yes, I actually finished reading that painful wall-to-wall posting you call a game on Tuesday night.

[Brian Skies]

I didn't recall EXACTLY what happened but:
- poor game.
- hydra signs posts (perfect for squizo excuse)
- posted wrong account (harder to iso)
- made it to lylo

After skimming the link I saw that he also:
- screwed lylo
- had no problems about it.

I actually have a different analysis about this game.

You say it was a poor game, but in my opinion, it was pretty good up until around page 23 or so. After that point, I'd like to say the town made a few bad mistakes and the mafia capitalized.

The hydra signed their posts, but they never intended to use it as an excuse or tried to hide behind the other head (the hydra was town by the way). In fact, one of the other town members misrepresented them and said that was what they were doing. This led to confusion and derailed the hydra's credibility. The mafia used this to their advantage.

The hydra did post under the wrong account several times, but seeing as how it was a relatively short game, I don't see this being an issue. A little more work from the teammates should make up for this shortcoming. People are human after all. We all make mistakes. I'm new to this game, but iso seems to be a tool for scumhunting, townreading, and analyzing information in a quick and efficient manner, but not a necessity to properly play the game. Kind of like using a calculator.

I don't see a problem with a hydra making it to lylo. How is this any different from another player/slot making it to lylo?

Yes, the hydra screwed lylo by placing a vote on a town member. But is this a mistake that only hydras make? Or is it common between all players, regardless of player/slot type?

Why should it matter if they had no problems about it? The game was already over at that point. They were convinced they knew who mafia was, and they acted upon that. If you can't make a decision like that without conviction, why make it at all?

[Brian Skies]

Also, if it was a poor game, why use it as a reference? I don't see why you would knowingly use a bad example to prove a point.

[Brian Skies]

/notactuallypgo

so guys, cats or dogs?

Are you or aren't you? If you're not, then why claim? Lying doesn't help town. Slight scumread.

Also, dogs:
1) I have dogs.
2) Even though they're cute, I'm allergic to kittens.
3) Even though I'm not allergic to them, I don't find cats cute when they're all grown up.

[Brian Skies]

Are you really going to discuss hydrae?
Regarding Saki: it's his playstyle. It's cool. Or not. I'm not gonna decide it in your stead.

I read that monstrosity (although I'm sure it's nothing compared to other games). It gave me a headache. I want to discuss it. Also, HP has pretty much confirmed his stance against hydras. I want to know if it is warranted or if he's just directing the attention towards them.

Regarding Saki: So he's one of "those" players...this is gonna be fun.

[Brian Skies]

To answer your question, idk, it seems like you're willing to vote people on the virtue of them being a hydra, discounting dissonance or all those other things you wont tolerate as auto scum actions, thats the vibe i got.

In any case, its probably not alignment indicative that he hates hydras, but those questions seemed like they were there to give excuses to vote for hydras.

This is the original gut feeling I had. I'm a logical player, so I thought I may have read it wrong. HP's later reaction to Rail Tracer refusing to answer his questions brought back this feeling.

28 what? I thought you pretty much agreed with what he said earlier. You literally said that when the opinion was brought upon by someone else (SoS) so Im not convinced thats how you felt at first, its like you thought Poirot will give an opinion that would be favorable, and when it was questioned you back tracked immediately. You are my biggest suspect right now.

Reread post #16. I explicitly (and it should be pretty clear; if not, then that is my fault) stated that I agreed with the way he was going to hold hydras responsible for their actions in the same way he was going to hold regular slots responsible. Nowhere in there does it say I agreed with his stance against hydras or the questions he was asking them.

As for post #28, I didn't like HP's reaction to Rail Tracer refusing to answer his questions. Some of Rail Tracer's following comments (not SoS's mind you), made me go back towards my initial reaction towards HP's stance against hydras.

39 you liked his stance but you "never said you liked his questions" well why didnt you say that earlier? Your stance looked like you were in complete agreement with him. If you had a real problem with it, then you could have easily said those things on your first comment of his post

You're still misinterpreting me. I didn't think I needed to clarify myself, but after SoS's initial comments, I felt there was a pretty strong possibility someone was going to misinterpret or misrepresent me. You just proved that my suspicions were right.

Like I said before, I never agreed to HP's "stance" against hydras, only the way he was going to treat hydras the same way as any other slot.

143 I actually have no idea why you read that game instead of just commenting here. Or just ASK him to explain what happened. And you saying all this is like you questioning his own stance on his own game. This posts in off itself seems like a bad discredit attempt. Why use a bad game? Because he had a bad game with hydras. Duhh.

I read the game because I don't take arguments at face value. There is always evidence presented in a case, but it doesn't mean the evidence is relevant or accurate. And I'm not discrediting the possibility of him knowingly using bad evidence to support his claim (this is WIFOM and I didn't want to mention it, but it's still a suspicion I had). The important thing for me to read him is to discern how much of it is him just having bad experiences with hydras and how much (if any) of it is him intentionally painting them as suspicious or directing the attention towards them.

[Brian Skies]

My head hurts. I'll have a wall-post and reads posted either tomorrow or Sunday.

[Brian Skies]

@RT: Your quotes are nice and all, but can you put the post numbers somewhere? It makes it easier to find them and follow along. If not, that's cool too. I can deal.

@RT & HP: Stop fighting over who is making who talk about hydrae. If there is any hydra discussion, it's being caused by me. And HP, there are questions in #142 you never answered. I'd still like them answered, but if you don't want to, that's cool too.

Brian is null. He must be very busy with arguing over hydrae and

defending his point about his first three posts

.

It's annoying. I curse the English language for being so difficult to grasp.

Also, the hydra discussion can suck it. I don't care anymore.

My quick reads (a more detailed one will be posted sometime later this weekend):
Top 4 leaning town: RT, SoS, DB, ak
Top 4 leaning scum: Desu, Mario, Saki, HP

[Brian Skies]

OMG! I'm so behind on this thread. I'll post my reads and current thoughts/concerns (if any, there should be some) as soon as I catch up. I've just been avoiding this game because I got a little annoyed repeating myself over and over about what I wrote when people keep misinterpreting/misrepping it.

[Brian Skies]

Here are my game notes from my notepad (sorry for the weird alignment). I still need to sort HP. I've been skipping a lot of his posts because of the giant walls of text. And I want to get this out there before something huge happens and I need to change the details for a bunch of my reads.


*I don't know if the early "hydra treatment" comments from HP and me are preventing the hydras from being
as transparent as we would like them to be. So right now, I'm giving them benefit of the doubt in terms of
lurking and general lack of content. Especially since they seem hesitant to post anything without consulting
their partner.

RT

- Strong townread. A lot of his early content revolved around hydras (but not because he wanted to).
Has been actively generating content and poking around the other players. Has been looking at the big
picture. I don't see any clear scum motivation right now.

SoS

- Leaning town. General lack of scum motivation up to this point, seems malleable, and I'm getting good
vibes from this slot.

ak

- Leaning town. I'm impressed with the iso given the general lack of posts. Has only posted a few reads,
but they don't follow the general concensus, which I think is a good sign. Has mostly been pressuring
SoS, which is good considering SoS was pressuring Fu and a lot of the attention was placed elsewhere.

RWaP

- Leaning town. I've been getting good Nacho vibes for most of the early game. The slot's recent activity
makes me lean town.

NS

- Null. I liked the catch-up post, even if it was done pretty roughly. Is willing to offer
information to help get a better read. I need more content though (previous slot-holder didn't
generate anything worthwhile).

HC

- Null. Newer player. Expresses many of the concerns I had regarding hydras before this
game started. I do think it's suspicious that it was so difficult for him to grasp the benefits of
a hydra without them being told to him, but for the most part, it seems genuine. His vote on an
inactive player seems like something I would do. He seems hesitant to take his own stances without other
people's opinions. But, I'm pretty sure Cabd mentioned something about a replacement.

Fu

- Null. Hasn't done much, if anything, in helping the town develop reads but has been spending
most of his time defending himself. Although I don't like his reaction and AtE, I do find the reaction
to be pretty genuine.

DB

- Null. This read is slightly biased. He was originially higher on this list. I liked the transparency in
his catch-up post. He also seems to be pretty busy. But despite the amount of content available in the
thread, he seems fixated on very specific, surface type issues. As opposed to my point of view, I
believe he has some misconceptions about what has happened in the game (Post #239). And I don't
particularly like Post #240.

Des

- Null-scum. Post #62. What scum content? I do like his reaction to Nacho in post #114. Post #172: You
got nullreads on RT, HP, AND me from all our content? There must be a lean somewhere. Still wrapping my
head around this slot. I'm suspicious of possible piggybacking and buddying throughout this game, but
I don't know how much of that actually points to scum.

Mario

- Null-scum. I'm not liking how he only offers an opinion on HC. It seems very direct. His iso is small and
I'm not liking it as a whole. Discounting the read because he said he doesn't have a lot of time. I need
more information.

Saki

- Leaning scum. I'm not familiar with meta, but I'm not buying "fakeclaim=town." Not liking the
one-liners. Asks for V/LA on #56. Possible lurking afterwards (although I noticed townies tend to lurk
sometimes too). I need more information. More one-liners and sarcasm.

HP

- Unsorted. After re-reading post #107, I noticed that I completely missed the sincerity of his tone.
I swear I read it the whole way through the first time, but I think I tunneled and subconsciously missed
the important parts (probably due to frustration of reading through the linked game). I also like his
reaction to my analysis in #163. He seems to be having some misconceptions and I don't know if they're
intentional or not. Not liking the reasoning for his vote on HC at all. Still needs sorting because he
likes to post giant walls of text that I tend to just skip over. And I'm pretty sure there's still some
stuff in there I need to either analyze or address.

[Brian Skies]

280 Im having problems with the read list because it mostly gives null or leaning reads and no concrete town reads. But I think you're town, i just want to know why.

291 See my problem is the fact that he agreed to something at first without expressing doubt. Then later when other people come in and say something that is along the lines of "All that wasnt necessary" he comes in and agrees. If he really felt that way, he would have said so earlier.

301 Why are you not doing anything?

303 So why not just directly call us scum?

320 Again why mostly "leaning" reads and no hardline "SCUM" read. it feels like you dont want to call anyone scum.

VOTE: Brian Skies

So I have HP, Mario, Rebel and SoS as town
Null on Saki, HC and artemis
Leaning Scum on RT and FuDuzn
Scum in Brian, Dessew

Okay SoS, Im here. You wanted to talk to me?

1) This is how I usually make my reads.
2) Why does it matter so much how we label our reads? Sorting is still being done and we would logically be trying to lynch the people we either felt was most scum or the people that we felt was the least likely to be town. If you can't find a great scum lynch, then you try to make the next best lynch.
3) Scumhunting isn't the only way to be effective in this game. Creating a town block is effective too as long as scum don't find a way in. Create a town block big enough and the scum will have nowhere to hide.

It's been bugging me that even though you seem to be caught up, you seem to be hung up on rather innocuous details. There have surely been larger discussions and you haven't provided much of your own insight in regards to them. Also, the constant circling about what I said or didn't say is becoming irritating. I don't know what you are expecting by continuously pushing it.

Brian, I was a little hesitant, but I want to answer this: why on earth would you skip a post (#320, tha part regarding HP). Honestly, it looks like a discredit-attempt.

I was trying to catch-up. Some of HP's posts aren't the most visually appealing to me and I was having trouble focusing on the information because of it (my mind was wandering too much). Also, I don't think it's fair to either HP or to me to make a read based on outdated information, or lack thereof for that matter (hence, the unsorting).

I went back and I have a slight townread on HP. I've been liking his reactions to the whole hydra thing. His malleability and admitting that he could be wrong makes me think it wasn't scum motivated. There is still some stubbornness, but given that it is one of his most recent games, I can understand that he would refuse to just let it go. I find the dislike for some things ("grudge" seems like too strong of a word in this case) to be rather irrational and people are often just stubborn about it, even if they know they are wrong. It's akin to disliking sports teams even though you can't explain why (kind of like how I refuse to like the Broncos or Cowboys even though I like Peyton Manning and DeMarco Murray).



DB has been falling way too fast on my reads list.

VOTE: Daniel Bryan

[Brian Skies]

when you do,

note how many times he asks random questions of others.. and what they think.

you know my scum game, and i do exactly that. just ask what others think.

This is interesting. I thought this was just how notscience played. I should look for some recent notscience-town games and see.

Also, I gave ns a free pass on his initial reads list because it looked like a roughly done catch-up post. I'm most interested to see if any of the reads have changed since then and how they have changed.

[Brian Skies]

Brian: I don't get what outdated information you're talking about. What wasn't scummotivated? The hydra-thing?

Yeah. I was up to speed as far as isolation #10 for HP. But there were still a few big posts I wanted to read before I sorted him. I was just tired and didn't feel like reading through them at the time.

And yeah, I don't think the hydra-thing is scum-motivated. Or at least that's what I'm getting from his reactions.

What concerns me about the don't have scumreads attitude is that saying someone is town is easy and risk free. It's diplomatically convinient even and, doesn't necessarily commit you as scum, since "new damning evidence" can always be found (or fabricated).

Even more so, you can't (at least not with many players), push a lynch saying, you're in the pool of "remaining players" so you probably are scum.

Specially when there's lots of players in that pool and, even if there weren't, if you don't provide good cases for the town pool players to actually BE town.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't see a lack of scumreads in any of the reads lists. The only problem I can see is the term usage. SoS didn't have any concrete town reads, but he did have "leaning" town reads. It was obvious that these were the ones he felt most comfortable with because of their placement on the list. RWaP's list was completely different in that it didn't label anyone as scum. But it's pretty obvious who the hydra suspects most.

As for me, this is just how I write my reads list. I use quantifiers because I don't believe in absolutes when dealing with the unknown (ingrained into me from philosophy and English courses). That's just the way I am and it isn't indicative for me. If you are still having a problem with my list, just assume that any read with the word town is someone I believe to be innocent and anyone with the word scum in the read to be someone I believe to be scum. If I'm fencesitting for whatever reason, the read will just read as "null."

Regarding the last part, this isn't what I said and you know it. Creating a townblock is just another strategy that people may use. This creates an inner circle of trust and allows the players in the inner circle to create more pressure for the players outside of the circle. When the town circle is big enough, it makes it much more difficult for scum to avoid the pressure and makes it easier to catch them. Am I saying this is the most effective strategy? No. What I am saying is that this is a strategy that players may decide to use when they have really strong, mutual townreads. But if a scum does find a way in, then the strategy becomes moot.

As for your DB vote, do you realize you seem to have a pattern where you just follow the current trend? Is the DB vote real? Why do you think he is scum ("falling on my reads" is too vague) and how confident are you about it?

What makes you think I'm just following the trend? So far I've had an RVS vote on artemiskitty, one vote on you as I was trying to get a read, and now a vote on Daniel Bryan. My last two votes have been on players I've been suspicious of and people I felt were strong candidates to be scum. I hardly consider two votes to be following the trend.

The DB vote IS real. Like I said before, I read his early catch-up post to be pretty genuine. But he seems to be getting way too hung-up on innocuous details. Either he's not reading thoroughly enough or he's looking for superficial things to comment on to make himself look busy. It just doesn't feel right to me.

[Brian Skies]

Its kinda weird that after you talk about other people, you suddenly vote me

and explain it 27 posts later

, Brian.

Nonetheless, what "superficial" thing have I commented on? Why is that scummy in itself?

I'm sure I was talking about you (if not actually directly to you) in the post I voted you in. Explain to me the significance of the bolded part. I don't think the post difference is significant (there are 13 slots in this game and people have different times of availability) and HP was asking me to explain.

As for "superficial things," I'm referring to term usage (in the reads lists) and the misinterpreted post (it had already been circled around way before you brought it back up). I feel like you are blowing them way out of proportion compared to other discussions and details that have occurred during the game. I believe it is scummy because you are misdirecting attention that could/should be placed elsewhere to make yourself seem busy and actively scumhunting. Furthermore, I'm getting more and more convinced that either you aren't reading properly, or you are intentionally misconstruing things (I'm favoring the latter).

Also, why do you find it weird that I would take other people's ongoing discussions, interactions, and opinions to form my reads?

you tell us to stop fighting when I'm quite sure others like dessew had done so first and, in any case, you were voting me...

RT wasn't pushing the hydra discussion at all. I, on the other hand, did push the discussion and asked you questions regarding it. They weren't answered for me and I was getting frustrated that you were ignoring me.

One of your last two votes was me and it was done very early on and you never seemed to be very sure about that vote, anyway.

Are early votes ever sure things? I wasn't sure about my read on you, so I kept it there as I was trying to get a read (pressuring the person I'm currently looking at).

Vote Mario

Explain please. I don't see how you got here from the recent discussion with HP.

Vote Mario

That is somewhat unexpected.

Vote: Daniel Bryan

Again, how did you arrive here?

[Brian Skies]

I'm voting Mario because he's not playing the game, and because his 126, contrary to what others have said, is filled with scum.

What do you think is scummy about it?

[Brian Skies]

I am at a loss for words right now.

[Brian Skies]

GiF and I think his posts show signs of scum apathy.

How is this different from regular apathy?

[Brian Skies]

What if he's just a busy person?

[Brian Skies]

and i'm kind of null on mario atm. i don't think it's "apathy" in his posts. he could be town who just has no solid reads (i felt kind of like that a bit earlier in the game). i find the lack of reads more townish than scummy.

I would too if he didn't push that

"lurking isn't scummy because I'm an alt and didn't need to lurk"

crap earlier. If he was good enough not to lurk as scum, he would be good enough as town to not feed us that sort of thing.

That isn't what he said. He was saying that being inactive isn't the same as actively lurking. And inactive players aren't necessarily scummy. There is nothing in the logic he provided that leads to what you put in quotes, Rebel.

About Brian: tbh, I don't see why him reading a completely irrelevant game is town. It's not alignment indicative, imo. Also, my problem isn't that he's going with the flow,

the problem is that he didn't say he was going with it

,

actually, he brought up other reasons

. He seems to try to look independent, and I cannot explain it with his personality.

Seriously, Dessew? I thought you were better than that.
And I brought up other reasons because I had other reasons.

Or, better idea. You'll realize that Im not scum and lynch Rail Tracer

A naked vote on RT and no case. And what happened to your push on me?

[Brian Skies]

@Brian, were you saying Rebel misrepped DB?

Or misinterpreted.

@Mod: Can we have the nine hours the site was down added back onto the deadline?

No. Deadline was three weeks, 9 hours is negligible.

@Mod: If the 9 hours are negligible, what's the harm in letting us have it?

[Brian Skies]

Brian: Your vote came off to me as if you wanted make it look like it had nothing to do with Rebel's case.

That's fine.

I still like this wagon and I'm not moving my vote.

[Brian Skies]

Soooooo, I apologize for my late entrance. I've been busy the last few days with school (especially yesterday) and all the other games I joined (it's a balancing act). Now that the weekend is right around the corner for me, I should be able to post more (weekends are my lifeline for this game).

I'm going to try to do a thorough read and catch-up. Now that Day 2 is here, I feel like I can try to make sense of some things. I'll try to get something super substantial for you guys later.

[Brian Skies]

Oh look! Another replacement. I'm reading the thread now. You guys can have my thoughts in about 6+ hours, since that's how long it's going to take me to read this game.

[Brian Skies]

I'm pretty much caught up to the top of this page. But I'm in a bunch of games and I'm balancing deadlines and making sure I don't get lynched in those games. This day just started and we already have two new replacements, not to mention all the ones from the end of Day 1. Yes, I've read this game. No, my attention isn't being focused here right now. I don't consider myself a strong Day 1 player and so far, Day 2 feels like Day 1 again.

If you have any questions and what-not, you're better off just listing them as they come up. It makes it easier for me that way.

[Brian Skies]

Natirasha replaced Saki, who was absent most of Day 1 before replacing out. All I remember from Saki is that bad PGO claim which I'm still scumreading. As for Nati, I didn't like his first set of reads. But for reasons I cannot explain yet (site rules and stuff), I currently have an aversion from reading too much into catch-up reads lists from replacement players. From what I'm gathering from you guys, Nati is a very difficult person to read. I still have the slot in my scum pile.

I didn't like how Titus tried to start a new bandwagon on notscience at the end of Day 1. The timing of it just didn't sit right with me considering she didn't put up much of an argument supporting it. I can't go too much into detail, but even if she is town, I'm extremely skeptical of her scumreads unless my townreads can convince me otherwise.

Mario's Day 1 activity is scummy, but I still think it's just regular apathy. End of Day 1 just looks like lost town, and I would know (speaking from experience).

I don't remember much about the HC slot to be honest. It kind of just disappears for me as I read through the game. But ProHawk should be able to give me a lean one way or the other on Day 2.

I'm sorry for having to keep saying I can't elaborate on certain things. But I'm in like 9 games or so right now and I only have one completed game on site, which makes me somewhat skeptical of my Ffery townread.

If you have any other concerns, keep 'em coming. Although, I won't be able to address them until Saturday night or Sunday at the earliest. Lots of reading and stuff to do.

[Brian Skies]

Maybe. I had you as a townread, but then your over-eagerness to get cleared pinged me. I forgot to mention that part in that thread. But you should have been lynched. I was just trying to prove it with logic. Apparently, logic only takes you so far sometimes. Plus, I wasn't expecting Guyett to vote Saki in my absence.

[Brian Skies]

@RT: My townbloc currently includes RT, ak, and SoS (to a lesser extent). Ceph is leaning town, I'm liking his intermediate reads so far. Although, I feel like there is a lot of information he should be commenting on. I'm still waiting on ProHawk. Everyone else is a scumread to varying degrees.

Irrelevant: My dog is bothering me and I can't figure out what it is.

[Brian Skies]

@RT: Titus

[Brian Skies]

@brian

is there a reason you're not voting titus?

Not really. I tend to not vote or move my vote when I should. I can vote her anytime, but it's not like there is a lack of discussion going on.

Also, Mantis claims she is sure titus is town and I have limited experience playing with titus.

How confident are you on your Nati-wagon? I haven't liked that slot all game. I feel like there should be some glimpse of town-Saki in his actions, but I'm not seeing anything like that this game.

[Brian Skies]

Mario's Day 1 activity is scummy, but I still think it's just regular apathy. End of Day 1 just looks like lost town, and I would know (speaking from experience).

it was mario's first post that i liked. it read like he was just speaking whatever came to his mind (he apologized at one point in it, for being disjointed) -- which, i would imagine to come from more of a town perspective. and i kinda liked what seemed to be certainty on his part, with his HC vote.

What did you think of his later posts?

i dunno, it was fuz's appeal to emotion. it just read as very town. i've played one game with fuz when he was town. so i'll skim that old game again, to see or confirm.

Do you think it could be frustrated scum?

[Brian Skies]

@ProHawk: Let me ask you a question. If you think someone is misrepping you and refuses to even acknowledge they could be misinterpreting you, and then pushes for a lynch against you with that misrep when other events are happening during the game, do you think it is scum-motivated or town-motivated?

Also, I don't see anything wrong with my vote. I thought votes could also be used to pressure.

[Brian Skies]

Anyway. This is my warning to all hydras. I'm treating you like any other player. I won't accept excuses like:

a) the other head read it.
b) I didn't say that.
c) He thinks x but I think y.
d) I don't read the game but he does.

or others in a similar vein. You're warned.

@Hydras:
1) Are you ok with this?
2) Do any of you think they will do this?
3) Do you consider you'll be fully committed to the game despite having a fallback guy who can carry you even if you don't pay attention?
4) Do you have a regular mean to confer with your other head?

@Non-hydras:
What are your opinions about what I just said?

"Even though you have two heads, I will treat you as one entity." I like this.

I agree and will also be treating them as such. Regardless of who performs it, a scum move is a scum move and will affect my read accordingly. If you can't properly coordinate your heads, that's on you, not the town.

Okay. I get it. I made a mistake in my post when I omitted the top part of the quote but not the questions at the bottom. I explicitly said I liked HP's approach towards hydras. But I never even mention the questions. And yet, I still find myself defending this.

I agree. All that needs to be said is: "Hi, I'm HumblePoirot. To make things easier for me, I am going to treat each hydra as a single entity, regardless of the heads involved." End.

You don't need their approval to read them the way you want to read them. They don't need to tell you how they're going to use the hydra. It is meaningless fluff.

Your questions don't seem to benefit the town in any way and have almost no real usage, if any, in sorting out the hydras.

I didn't like HP's reactions towards RT's refusal to answer his questions. And everything in this post is what I thought at that time.

Brian Skies concerns me a little. He comes off rather agreeable.

This is only my second game, and my first dealing with hydras. I liked HP's logic in dealing with hydras, especially since there are so many of them (almost a quarter of the player base).

But I never said I liked his questions. They're pretty useless in my opinion and I don't see how they can help us scumhunt. After browsing other games, I feel like a lot of useless pages will be produced from arguing about them.

his reaction to hydras looked over the top and fake. i understand that he linked some game with hydras that he modded and this was apparently bad for whatever reason, but it still looked fake, and i could see him using that as an excuse to berate hydras and pretend he's doing something. i also dislike the questions he asked because they serve no purpose in determining anything, and only add to my suspicion that he's trying to look like he's doing something when he's not actually doing anything

I originally thought it was for self-gratification and an attempt at a townread. However, I like the logic in this post. I'll read through that link later.

UNVOTE: artemiskitty
VOTE: Humble Poirot

Also, I may be a new player, but please don't treat me as one. I don't like crutches.

This is pretty self-explanatory. I'm a relatively new player to this site, and my only experience up to this point is my first game which still hasn't completed yet. So I'm still learning and researching everything I can.

Also, I don't mind being called agreeable. I'm an agreeable person. I can be skeptical too, though. But one thing I don't like is being misrepped. I realized my mistake in my earlier post and tried to clear it up. I spend a great deal of time having to do this.

Well, I'll be reading through that link as soon as it's posted. =(

When someone presents a case and evidence supporting that case, do you just take the evidence at face value? I sure as hell don't. I at least want to make sure evidence supporting a case checks out. Otherwise you're just giving people free reign to post anything they want.

Recently, however, I have developed an aversion to self-metas. I don't like the idea of trying to gauge someones play-style by reading a game I wasn't a part of.

And yet, you didn't mention this. You only mention it now.

woah. you're really reading the whole thing? I'm so sorry for you.

I don't mind being called "agreeable" as long as it's referring to the correct things.

I'd rather nip a potential problem in the bud than getting misrepresented down the road.

Oh gee. The irony.

[Brian Skies]

@ProHawk: I'm sick of defending that post. It was on page 1, and even 38 pages into the game, I find myself having to deal with it again. DB was misrepresenting me with it. I thought he could have been scum for it. I was wrong. I can't be wrong?

[Brian Skies]

What is town-Saki? i.e., what is missing in Saki's posts?

I just feel that there should be some town-motivation in Saki's posts. I should be able to look at something he did, and be like, "OH HE WAS THINKING THIS!" This is one of the reasons why I was so hesitant to lynch Saki in mismatched.

I mean, I could totally be wrong and looking too much into this. Saki could have just been hardlurking or not following along that well.

I just finished a game with town-Brian. In that game he came under fire on day 1, and his reaction to pressure was quite town.

I'm not happy about my reaction in that game. It wasn't classy at all and it's something I'd like to avoid in the future.

[Brian Skies]

@ProHawk: I'm sick of defending that post. It was on page 1, and even 38 pages into the game, I find myself having to deal with it again. DB was misrepresenting me with it. I thought he could have been scum for it. I was wrong. I can't be wrong?

So here is the thing Brian... your trajectory doesn't fit your story. If you honestly thought he was scum for "mis-repping you", why didn't you vote him when he first did it in... 152 to which you commented in 156? In fact after you commented on the mis-representation you still put him in your top 4 town pile in post 214...

I guess I can understand that he didn't vote you until #328, which could have been the straw that broke the camels back, however, again you waited to vote him until #390. Yes, that was your next post in the thread, but a quick search tells me that you were on-site and making a substantial number of posts in the time between post #328 and #390. My hypothesis being that you waited for more support for the wagon before wanting to push it which fits the bill of cautious scum quite nicely.

P-EDIT: NS, let me actually read your case to which I have admittedly skipped due to me writing you both off a town.

I was mostly observing to see how his perception of the game would change. I had already tried to clear up the misinterpretation earlier with HP, so I didn't understand why he was bringing it up again. As for 328, yes, that was what led me to vote for him.

I can't explain the post differential. It could have been anything ranging from real life responsibilities to me just not paying attention to the game. Sometimes, I like to peruse the general discussion forum, I've joined multiple games, and I sometimes avoid games that give me unneeded frustration or stress (I've been lost and confused at times during this game and this is why I think Mario could be town).

[Brian Skies]

Sure, but it'd be anti-town if I told you why. Are you okay with that?

[Brian Skies]

Reasons.

VOTE: Nati

I don't know where this wagon is sitting.

[Brian Skies]

Also, something has been bothering me about Titus. Do you think scum-Titus would try to make a counter-wagon at that point in the game?

[Brian Skies]

I already said I don't want to mention my reasons. At least not today.

Does it bother you?

[Brian Skies]

^
If PH isn't town, then I don't know what is.

[Brian Skies]

Does it bother you?

nah, i'm curious, though. i can't really think of an anti-town reason you'd have for not wanting to vote nati except if you think he's town or something :/

Why would I vote for Nati if I think he's town?

^
If PH isn't town, then I don't know what is.

This doesn't make me want to lynch you any less...

It makes me want to not lynch you at all.