Mini 1496: The Cash Cabd (Game Over)

[Rail Tracer]

Vote: FuDuzn

[Rail Tracer]

Unvote

Vote: Humble Poirot

[Rail Tracer]

no. they are pointless questions. i don't care how you choose to play in regards to hydras and the answers will become self-evident in my play this game.

[Rail Tracer]

You do realize that it would be just as easy to actually answer what will become self-evident instead of vaguely leaving the answers open for interpretation when it suits you?

yes

Don't you think reasoning for votes will help us move along faster and give us something to talk about other than scumdays and RVS votes?

sometimes

in this case, no

[Rail Tracer]

also, i actually

did

accidentally give you an answer to (1) so consider that a freebie. (and i have absolutely no idea how you inferred it incorrectly)

[Rail Tracer]

4) Why not answer this? Why is it pointless? Can't I be the judge of that?

if you explain to me why you think hydra players

wouldn't

have some method to confer with their other head, why this method matters to you, and what you're hoping to learn from any answer that i give, then i will consider answering the question if i like your reasoning

Also, why not tell me this when voting for me?

~reasons~

---

I believe I am. I'm concerned that a lot of noise about hydrae in the game will distract from focusing on the entire player list, and I see you as the source of a lot of noise about hydrae in the game.

the second sentence is correct.

do you have any scum/town reads so far? weak or strong, i don't care.

is there a reason you're not voting?

[Rail Tracer]

@sos,

yes

but i'm thinking my issues could be more of a playstyle/personality thing than an alignment thing

his reaction to hydras looked over the top and fake. i understand that he linked some game with hydras that he modded and this was apparently bad for whatever reason, but it still looked fake, and i could see him using that as an excuse to berate hydras and pretend he's doing something. i also dislike the questions he asked because they serve no purpose in determining anything, and only add to my suspicion that he's trying to look like he's doing something when he's not actually doing anything

i don't see the issue with brian skies being 'agreeable'.

[Rail Tracer]

omfg

omfg

i am so happy i have a valid reason to policy lynch saki before lylo

[Rail Tracer]

What is this? And why are you claiming?

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=PGO

Well, I'll be reading through that link as soon as it's posted. =(

oh right, he didn't link it, i just looked it up.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17830

i'm guessing it has something to do with coolskins and something that hydra did at some point in the game, but i'm not sure what exactly.

---

Credibility of my claim?

... ... ...

[Rail Tracer]

so fuduzn is probably scum.

[Rail Tracer]

do they need to be? what did you think of #50?

[Rail Tracer]

Right so poking someone a bit about the way a post was worded is obv scum tell now.

it's not so much that you did it, but the way in which you did it.

i don't have any issue with you actually asking questions, but the questions you're asking and the way in which you're asking them don't look town

and this post is no exception

Peirot, Rail Tracer, and Brian all seem rather town from early game.

elaborate on why poirot seems rather town to you.

Also, the game takes place in 2011 if I'm reading timestamps correctly.

hopefully hp will explain why his hatred for hydras from 2 years ago has carried over into this game.

At some point early on in the game, a player mentions there are three scum....

Regarding our set-up:
What assumptions can be safely made?
What assumptions can we not make?

general rule: don't talk about a closed setup d1. it's not useful information unless discussing a claim (and i don't really think it's worthwhile to discuss the pgo claim at this point in time). setup discussion is an easy way for scum to look like they're doing something useful.

[Rail Tracer]

put a vote down rather than complain about the game being slow.

[Rail Tracer]

what is stopping you from actually voting him?

[Rail Tracer]

Rail, explain my anti town intentions in my questioning?

it's not 'antitown', it just doesn't look town. as an example, i generally consider questions that are designed to get an answer that will give you a better read on someone to be town-looking questions, and questions like the ones you and poirot have been asking are not town questions.

but like i said, it's not the stuff you're saying that makes me think you're scum, but the way in which you're saying it. you're not exactly being aggressive or pressuring in your questions, you're not really doing a whole lot to get a better grasp on the game, you were just asking questions of one player and commenting on not much else that has happened. except now, where you're being attacked.

[Rail Tracer]

Those piggybacking off of SOS's weariness of me, scum in there me thinks.

continue on with this line of thinking, because i'm interested in hearing who you think is piggybacking off someone else's suspicion and why you think they're scum.

[Rail Tracer]

i'm pretty sure he was saying that you having a scum read and not voting is scummy. but even that is still weird, since he apparently thinks you're scummy for it.

[Rail Tracer]

so do you actually think fuduzn is scum? is there a reason you're still voting cynical?

[Rail Tracer]

And If I "berate" a hydra it'll have a reason. If you do something scummy, it'll be scummy regardless of any questions I might or might not have asked.

I think Isaac pointed it out earlier, but every single thing you've said about hydras could have been summed up in like a single sentence instead of walling your thoughts on them. I really don't like the fact that you're making such a big deal out of hydras, regardless of how bad this one experience happened to be two years ago.

FuDuzn's reaction (after what could be like mild activity) to the votes on him is odd. A little too concerned. As if a scum player who thought himself acting in the same way as always was getting flak and immediately got annoyed.

Does this mean you're reading FuDuzn as scum?

---

I think that his hate of hydrae from two years ago is genuine or else he wouldn't make a giant ranty post against it, and the way he's acted upon this hate is more indicative of a town mindset than a scum mindset. I don't really see an advantage as scum of "hydras suck!!!" either, so that's an added benefit. Why aren't you townreading him?

I think his hate of hydras may be genuine, but he's making a much bigger deal out of it than he should be considering

a single bad experience with a single hydra

.

How is the way he's acted on it indicative of a town mindset, exactly? What do you think he'd have said differently about it if he were scum trying to convey that he has issues with hydras? The biggest problem I have is

none of the stuff he's said about hydras is alignment-indicative

, which makes all the walling about them moot.

So you ask me why I think this benefits him as scum? In the short run, it makes it seem like he's doing something when he really isn't. Compare the game-relevant content of his posts so far to the amount of times he's mentioned his feelings about his hatred for hydras. It appears he's written a lot, but only a very tiny fraction of what he's written is game-relevant. In the long run, had he not been called out on it, he would have had the option of, at some point down the line, saying, "omg, this is why I hate hydras!!!" if he ever felt like pushing a lynch on one of them. These are just a couple basic reasons I could see it benefitting him as scum.

The better question is, what

town motivation

is there in talking about his hatred of hydras this much?

---

I'm liking HP and rebel w/o a pulse for town.

Why?

---

Stubbs' first post gave off a pretty strong townfeel.

Why?

---

If you want lynch me than get it over with

Give me your current reads.

---

FuDuzn is kinda scum so far, especially in (116) where he just sort of gives up and resigns to his fate after fighting it quite a bit. Could be an appeal to emotion? I definitely think there are some scum on his wagon though.

Huh? What wagon? And who do you think is scum on this "wagon"? And if you think FuDuzn is scum, why not vote him? Why Fegelein, since you didn't even mention him in this post?

[Rail Tracer]

that post is somewhat in line with my own thinking on cynical so far (particularly the ps part). additionally i'm having a hard time believing that cynical had so much trouble figuring out what a hydra is and was playing it up a lot.

[Rail Tracer]

But I find emotions to be irrational things, he's going about this in an irrational way, things match up so far.

so he's being emotional and irrational and this is making you read him as town? or what part of the irrational approach made you think "town mindset"?

---

@artemis,

thoughts on the game so far? reads? anything?

---

@saki,

i doubt i'm going to get much out of you, but same question as above.

---

I try to treat this game like a conversation, and I try to involve the rest of the players as if they were in person with me, where I could ask them questions and so on. I apologize for being misleading.

that doesn't really excuse you from not taking your

own

stances on things. either you think it is ate (and possibly alignment-indicative) or you don't.

Dessew, SOS and you were suspecting Fu. Dessew strikes me as suspicious, but I'd like to him to clarify on his post first. As for the second part, I posted about it right after the the post you are questioning.

so why not say that you think dessew is suspicious, rather than say you think there's scum in the players attacking fuduzn?
what about dessew strikes you as suspicious?
why is fegelein more worthy of a vote than either fuduzn or dessew?

---

Well done, HC! However, unvote Fege, because it's stupid to vote somebody only because of inactivity.

i don't like this line.

He's hasty, joking a little, concerned about the vote on him (even starting to suspect the one (me) who is voting him.) There's also the "I don't know who to vote, I don't want to harm town by voting to the wrong place." Also, there's the fact that he placed his vote on Fege with a stupid reasonong, and his last post (#133) screws up chronology, Mario had contributed to the game as much as Fege had when HC voted Fege.

does this all mean you're currently reading HC as town or what?

---

To those leading my wagon, answer my damm question please.

maybe you should actually read.

speaking of, give me your current reads.

---

HC, you think FuDuzn is scummy AND you think there's scum on his wagon? Why both of these? And why not vote on of them?

. . . .
this was already addressed by HC in #133

---

His retracting the PGO claim points to town-Saki IMO.

not really, but i don't feel like arguing about this at this point.

[Rail Tracer]

also stubbs' question in 136 is bad given that hc already answered the question 3 posts earlier. . . .

[Rail Tracer]

well at least the first question, second is legit and what i wanna know too

[Rail Tracer]

83 great point, why dont ou just vote him seeing as he is your biggest suspect

i unfortunately do not have multiple votes

But you did say nothing he said was alignment indicative

you don't seem to understand. it's the fact that i'm not reading anything he's said as alignment-indicative that's making me think scum. generally someone who's writing as many words as he is should be doing a little more in the way of scum hunting, and the fact it's mostly iioa is what bothers me. i've sene some semblance of what could be scum hunting in his recent posts but it feels mechanical and i'm not seeing the town you apparently see in him. unlike the emotion apparent in his talking about hydras, i don't sense any such emotion in his 'scum hunting'. *shrug*

Anyone else feeling Brian scum?

no

---

^i keep reading fuzduzn's posts as towntowntown

i haven't been scumreading fuduzn since about p5, but for the purposes of gauging reactions, i've been quiet about my read reversing on him. i am a sucker for ate that looks genuine. i still want his current reads. and i think he needs to tone down on the overreacting because i'm getting sick of it regardless of his alignment.

VOTE: S.O.S

i'm not in agreement with some of sos's reads, and i'm not currently town reading him, but i don't see the scum in his posts.

is this just because of the way he's attacking fuduzn? what do you think of some of the other players who are currently voting fuduzn (particularly dessew and hc)?

---

You still haven't explained why I had to prod you for an explanation after you voted me.

two things. first, i only give reasons early on when i feel they're necessary. i feel i get more telling reactions from someone when they don't know exactly why i'm voting them. second, why does it even matter?

You asked more questions which I replied to (amongst a sizeable amount of non-hydra stuff) and you know KEEP going on about the hydras and pretending that's all I'm talking about.

no. this is just wrong. i wanted the conversation to die immediately and made it pretty clear this is what i wanted. you kept/keep bringing it up. i only mention it later because it's part of what i dislike about your posts so far.

If you ASK me questions relating to hydras I will answers questions relating to hydras.

i haven't asked you

any

questions relating to hydras. quote me.

pay attention to what I write instead of working so hard to convince yourself.

i am paying attention to what you write. that is why i don't think you're town.

[Rail Tracer]

btw

@HP,

what do you think hc would have to gain by lying about something so easily verifiable? isn't the more likely scenario that hc is mistaken?

[Rail Tracer]

As for it being easily verifiable, that assumes no one ever would slip up.

not really. i know people can slip up, but that isn't an example of someone being caught in a lie.

i personally don't even think it was a mistake or a lie, but i think your reason for thinking it's a lie is ridiculous. it's quite obvious what hc was actually saying if you read the first part of the post.

(For example, calling my non-hydra posting mechanical and lacking emotion - why should I display emotion? - but also calling my hydra game emotion-full but fake to appear active, or something of the sort).

the hydra stuff is iioa, the scum hunting you've been doing hasn't look genuine to me. i don't personally care whether you show emotion or not, i just found it strange that you seemed emotional about the hydra stuff (which was rather irrelevant) and this doesn't carry over into other aspects of your game.

part of the self-fulfilling prophecy of pretending I write nothing but hydrae stuff

not really. my issue with your early posts is that there was nothing

but

hydra noise. my issue with your more recent posts is i don't feel your scum hunting is genuine, and the amount of iioa (mostly hydra talk) in comparison to the scum hunting you've done has been underwhelming. quite frankly i don't care how much you talk about hydras as long as it's secondary to scum hunting.

also don't pretend i am the one forcing this. you could have dropped it page one like i wanted. but you didn't. so of course i'm going to comment on how you didn't drop it. *shrug*

only after me saying you're not paying attention, you dared ask me about anything I'd done that wasn't hydra related.

it's not my job to make you post relevant content. i've been reading your posts and it's first thing you've said that was worth questioning.

---

Frankly, I don't see how AtE is a towntell

it's not "ate" that's a town tell. it's the tone of his posts and how genuine this specific instance seems.

who

aren't

you "null" on besides HC (town) and fuduzn (scum)?

[Rail Tracer]

Explain why the scumhunting isn't genuine and offer examples of people with genuine scumhunting (and, if there are, people with fake scumhunting as well).

i don't think it's genuine because i don't see you properly analysing motivation. as a general rule, i consider people who try to read between the lines of posts to be genuinely scum hunting.

examples in this game? nacho-hydra, sos, artemis. to some extent, isaac. i liked mario's post on hc, too. incidentally, outside of sos i think these players are town (sos i'm thinking could be town but i have a gut nagging that's not letting me put him in my town list).

What are your reads on the players of this game?

outside of the ones mentioned above, i'm town reading fuduzn.

i don't feel good about cynical and dessew but i don't think they're scum together so i'm still sorting this out.

others i don't have a read one way or the other.

[Rail Tracer]

@dessew,

if fuduzn is town, who is scum?

[Rail Tracer]

the whole "hydrae are harder to read tidbit" seems like a townslip

no

Rail is null for me.

you haven't formed any read on me whatsoever?

[Rail Tracer]

would it help if i said i'm town? i'm town, btw

[Rail Tracer]

my heads have been revealed.

It's Xegarus and zMuffinMan.

though xegarus is apparently busy and hasn't had time for mafia, so it's me solo so far this game.

[Rail Tracer]

i don't care what his stance on hydras is. i made it pretty clear in my first posts.

the issue i have with him is how much he played up the hydra stuff early.

you seem to think it's a townslip for some reason i'm not quite able to comprehend. i don't see his complaints about hydras as anything other than complaints about hydras, and distractions to the game.

[Rail Tracer]

i ignored it because i don't see it as relevant (i don't care much for meta and i don't have any recent completed games anyway). i publicly revealed my heads in the signup thread for another game (which is why saki knows).

[Rail Tracer]

because i think what he's done in the way of scum hunting so far hasn't looked genuine. i described this in one of my more recent posts. i don't like the way he doesn't seem to be analysing motivation (for example, in his reads on hc and fuduzn, where he thinks one is scum for "LYING" and the other is scummy for the ate)

e.g.

After the FuDuzn AtE I was willing to vote him but then I encountered HC's big fat lie and finally we have saki that warrants a wagon until she demonstrates she can play (if you don't think she can or are willing to excuse her meta I can show you a game where she was she made descriptive posts - check her history).

you didn't comment on any of the game-relevant content he's posted. what's your opinion on it?

[Rail Tracer]

(Take for example, his persistence accusation of HC lying about mario or Fu's AtE)

yeah, but that's a major issue i'm having with the way he's scumhunting. i called it mechanical because i don't see the analysis.

there was like one read i think i remember him analysing motivation (may have been in regards to brian? i don't remember) but that was it.

the only thing that's giving me second thoughts on hp is that i'm considering the possibility this could just be how he plays.

[Rail Tracer]

Didn't he tell people to start analyzing motivation?

in #167 yeah. im going back over his iso atm and trying to read it from a town perspective. i can see some things that i can maybe see as town, but i really don't like how he has apparently arrived at his scum reads.

Dessew was scum I think and this behaviour is looking similar to it which is what's pinging me so hard

i don't disagree with the dessew read. if i start thinking hp is town, i'll probably move to dessew.

[Rail Tracer]

I disagree with both Dessew and railtracer that it's a mistake

i don't think it's a mistake. i don't think it's anything at all. if you read the first part of the post in which you claim hc is lying, you can see what hc was actually saying (i.e. that there was no real reason to choose fegelein over others). the second sentence is a, "well, now i don't have a reason to attack mario over fegelein" sort of thing.

my point about you calling it a lie and not thinking it could be a mistake is that you are making a bigger deal out of it than it really is, and you're

not

trying to understand the motivation that you claim you are. *shrug*

[Rail Tracer]

Why on earth did he do it and why it makes him town?

also HC isn't a town read of mine. but i'm not scum reading him and your argument for thinking he's scum is not at all convincing.

[Rail Tracer]

so I think he would back down a bit as scum when no one really bought his reasoning.

i'm not reading too deeply into this. under different circumstances i might agree, but after he brought up a game from two years ago as justification for hating hydras and people started commenting on this, i don't think him not backing down means much.

Some players start out with surface attacks and sort of ease their way in. I think HP is one of those players.

indeed, and i already acknowledged that i might be reading too much into his playstyle. it doesn't really change the fact that i don't like how he arrived at his scum reads, though.

btw, what's your read on ns? is there a reason you're still voting him?

[Rail Tracer]

I could only list some of my posts I think are townish and say thing about my playstyle.

two things here. first, if you're town, you should be questioning ns and finding out exactly why he thinks you're scum. second, responding to cases is a

good

thing - it's part of being completely transparent. so what if it's wifom?

the fact that you're not considering the possibility that ns is scum pushing you for poor reasons only adds to my suspicion of you.

[Rail Tracer]

it's not so much that fuduzn's posts are "so goddamn town" (i was looking back over his ISO earlier and didn't feel as strongly about him looking town - i want to see what comes out of the "reread" he promised to do over the weekend) but that the frustration felt sort of genuine.

so you know you only have one scum read. what are you doing to find the rest?

---

in other news, i'm getting paranoid about sos because they seem to have faded away in the last few days.

[Rail Tracer]

Well its ironic that Rail Tracer has been accusing HP of hiding behind the hydra discussion when the attempts at scumhunting are there and the only reason HP keeps talking about hydras is because Rail Tracer keeps bringing them up. Makes sense?

i've mentioned that i don't give two shits about how much he hates hydras. he could sign each post with 1000-word essays essentially saying "FUCK HYDRAS" and i wouldn't care if it came secondary to scum hunting. the issue is that his early posts were all about hydras, and i'm not impressed with the scum hunting he's done so far.

was there any point in you bringing this up? do you think the way i'm attacking hp is scummy or something?

Yeaahh, Im doubting my scum read on Dessew..

so then who are you thinking is scum?

[Rail Tracer]

i don't like how you were active and had a take-charge sort of attitude earlier and now you pop up every now and then and comment on something before disappearing again

who do you currently think is scum, sos?

[Rail Tracer]

I have some concerns about dessew.

are these concerns only recent? because prior to #243 i can't recall you mentioning him.

There are a couple of players I am leaning town on that I would feel much better about if I could see them as strong town.

i'm going to assume you have a reason for not mentioning which players. is more on this coming later, too?

[Rail Tracer]

Does anyone else notice Dessew hasn't commented on anything my slot has done?

he technically did. in 236.

Vote Rebel

the only real problem i have with rwap is i see a lot of talking and not as much questioning and pushing. it feels a bit passive.

[Rail Tracer]

also want to hear the 'more later' stuff from sos.

It implies I'm null yet I've given him plenty to make a read based off of.

*shrug* not justifying it, just saying he has technically mentioned you so it's not like he's avoiding you altogether.

what do you think about rwap's 222 in light of the fact he's still voting you?

[Rail Tracer]

@RWAP

give me a list of your current reads, please.

---

@sos,

is later soon or is later later or is later never? i keep waiting for later and i come back later but apparently not later enough.

[Rail Tracer]

ok.

'coz #245 gave me the impression that you have thoughts on them (or, at the very least, on fuduzn) that you were putting together and you don't really seem to be taking much initiative engaging players.

[Rail Tracer]

well it's hard to engage you when i want to hear your thoughts on different players and you're not giving your thoughts on different players. :/

[Rail Tracer]

why is daniel bryan null-town? is it just for the #152-wall? because his recent posts don't look all that town. they're commentary with no commitment.

are the null reads the ones you said you want more information on before you can call them town? what do you think of nacho's point about artemiskitty's paranoia of you? why are you null on notscience? he looks fairly town so far.

if you still think fuduzn is scum, why the unvote? i don't understand the "but watching" part of the dessew read.

why are you even voting rebel? what are you hoping to achieve with this?

and where is the more later you said you were going to do with fuduzn in #245?

[Rail Tracer]

@sos,

could you tell me what you liked about daniel's wall? i didn't get much from it. there's a lot of effort but it didn't really make me think town.

also don't really think fuduzn was under much pressure when you unvoted him

- saki is lurking and getting excused because of apparently scummy meta.

it's not so much that saki is getting excused. it's more, "well, what are you gonna do about it...?" *shrug*

The problem is that it's an evasive way to not address mario's 126 which is quite accurate.

ok. i don't agree with this. i can see some elements of hc's iso that look kind of scummy, and others that make me think town. i don't think hc is scum with dessew. i think dessew is more likely scum than hc.

your interpretation of the "big fat lie" isn't enough of a reason for me (and apparently others) to want to vote hc. and given that hc is being replaced, what are you going to do about it?

what are your current reads outside of hc?

[Rail Tracer]

hm.

Unvote
Vote: Dessew

[Rail Tracer]

hm.

Unvote
Vote: Daniel Bryan

[Rail Tracer]

This post?

Well its ironic that Rail Tracer has been accusing HP of hiding behind the hydra discussion when the attempts at scumhunting are there and the only reason HP keeps talking about hydras is because Rail Tracer keeps bringing them up. Makes sense? Also, what is iioa?

Ik Brian, whats problematic here is that you initially didnt say anything about his hydra statement until people said they didnt agree with some of it, your post agreeing to a part of it looks like it supports the whole statement.

Idk what it is, but I feel like notscience is too agreeable here, Im getting a light scum read on his slot. I dont like his attack on kitty by saying that they have 14 posts, ergo they must be scum.
I think he may have a point about Dessew but Im having a gut scum read on him.

the thing you missed, or neglected to comment on here, is the first part of the post. the rest of it is meh as well, but the first part is pure commentary that really stood out as pointless commentary.

[Rail Tracer]

Pretty much all the discussion that in any form mentions hydrae makes me want to spin the scroll wheel at this point.

it's not the mention of hydras that's the problem, it's why he brought it up.

[Rail Tracer]

i have a whole different category for saki outside of town/scum reads. it's called the saki list. i don't know quite how to deal with players on my saki list, except to PL them before LyLo if i can't find a reason to put them into my town list.

[Rail Tracer]

Because i dont feel like he's scum hunting as much as he is trying to discredit HP.

elaborate, and try not to be totally generic in your elaboration. i want to see you bring up quotes and explain your position here.

and while you do this, talk a bit about how you formed your scum reads other than the person you're currently voting.

[Rail Tracer]

tired. more later. but considering there's like 2 weeks to the deadline (3 week d1) i don't think a deadline scramble is much of a worry

[Rail Tracer]

somebody needs to do this.

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

[Rail Tracer]

don't really see an issue with rwap reverse scum hunting. it's how i often do it, and i often end up having a lot of town reads but no (or few) solid scum reads. it's easier to find reasons to think someone is town than it is to find reasons to think someone is scum unless they are just making it obvious. *shrug*

His reads post was kinda bad, but I want to know what you guys are seeing that I'm not.

i'm not sure on this big thing that stubbs has supposedly spotted, but even outside of his more recent posts, i just don't like the overall tone of his iso. for some reason the big wall post seems to have given some people a town impression of him, but like i said earlier, there's a lot of effort that went into the wall but i don't see the town intent. i was really null on it. and when i'm null on a wall, i generally think it's a scum wall.

[Rail Tracer]

long wall about DB

i share most of these thoughts about #152, which is why i keep saying i don't understand how people are reading it as town when i was mostly null on it.

and i agree with the general conclusion here

long post of nothing

do you have no scum reads?

[Rail Tracer]

it was long for a post that didn't give me any useful information. you have like two or three town reads and you're fence sitting on the rest of the game is all i got from it.

[Rail Tracer]

how are you going to figure out 'the tempo' and how is that going to help you get reads if reading the game didn't help?

[Rail Tracer]

although i'm not entirely sure you have read the game because the comment about db makes little sense

[Rail Tracer]

would you be kind enough to point me to a post with the case vs DB or summarize it yourself?

maybe. after you tell me your thoughts on his posts.

Tempo is my version of scumhunting, I guess.

when is this going to happen?

[Rail Tracer]

i don't like that DB comes by, comments on some of the votes on him, then disappears again. i didn't particularly like his response either.

I still haven't read the game but how does his tunnel on you look even remotely townish?

do you think i'm scum?

Did I miss anything, Mr. Tracer?

i've talked about this at various points over the past few days but i was almost completely null on his initial wall (which a majority of the game seems to be calling a town post), and generally when i'm not reading anything in a long wall as alignment-indicative, i consider it a scum post. i'm not reading town intent in any of his posts. whether it be the comments just for the sake of commenting on something, the weird kind of progression in his reads or more recently the drive-by responses to a couple of the votes on him and nothing else.

also, please, Mr. Tracer is my father. you can call me Vino.

His hostility towards answering questions about hydrae drew my attention. That to me screams scum and that he has one of the hydras as his buddy and that his stance will evolve as to how hydras should be treated as the game (and his hydra buddy) progress throughout the game.

the inferences you make amaze me.

[Rail Tracer]

I don't have a clear read on you yet.

would it help if i told you i'm town?

his 126, contrary to what others have said, is filled with scum.

are you aware that simply asserting something is not a good way to convince people you're right? (even if a number of players seem to think it is)

[Rail Tracer]

i almost feel like that vote was a "too scummy to be scum" thing...

hm

[Rail Tracer]

and go into detail on RT

i have popcorn. ready and waiting.

[Rail Tracer]

remind me why you think brian is scum. has this read changed or been reinforced by any of his posts recently?

[Rail Tracer]

Is anyone else bugged by the lack of another wagon?

not particularly. the lack of activity by so many players could have something to do with it.

it bothers me in the sense that it's extremely antitown, but it doesn't bother me in the sense that it's unexpected given the current activity.

i'm not sure that dessew is scum anymore. some of his posts look kinda town. why do you still think he's scum?

but when you read into the implications, it sounds to me like he has something to gain from having DB lynched

not really.

[Rail Tracer]

hm. i feel like he's been going with the flow but i don't think it's scum going with the flow, it looks more like town agreeing with the herd. *shrug* the stuff he's been saying hasn't really gone against the grain, but i don't have any issues with the thought processes he's presented. for example, yeah you could say that he was being agreeable when he attacked HP, but then he also read the game HP referenced about hydras and formed his own opinions in that regard.

[Rail Tracer]

Either db was obvscum and the fellow scum are distancing or not wanting to start trains OR db is having a poor town game.

there are more options than this. for example, scum could be among the less active players (e.g. if mario is scum, it's not like that slot has been active enough to push a counter-wagon) or scum could have already tried and failed to start counterwagons (various other wagons have been popping up - e.g. if dessew is scum, the brian skies wagon could have been an attempted 'counter-wagon').

i don't really have an issue with the lack of counter-wagon.

unless the questions are pointless

. . . . . . . . . . . .

[Rail Tracer]

so many people mentioning the lack of a counter-wagon bugs me more than the lack of counter-wagon

[Rail Tracer]

And according to my earlier posts, I did have reads. Everyone keeps changing though, both through behavior and/or with actual replacements

so talk about these changes and why you're currently unsure on

all of your reads

then.

Somethings off about that slot to me

yeah. well, you know, your read appears to be formulated solely on me refusing to answer pointless questions and not on the actual content of my posts.

i have an idea. why don't you talk about the rest of my posts and why you do or don't like them?

[Rail Tracer]

i think if db is scum, dessew is probably town (or not scum with db). some of his posts look townish, regardless.

and i'm kind of null on mario atm. i don't think it's "apathy" in his posts. he could be town who just has no solid reads (i felt kind of like that a bit earlier in the game). i find the lack of reads more townish than scummy.

[Rail Tracer]

you can have independent thought and agree with a lot of the things people are saying.

[Rail Tracer]

@DB,

what are your current reads? (outside of the scum read on me)

[Rail Tracer]

why don't you start talking about your reads and how they came about.

at what point did you start thinking i'm scum and why?

also natirasha's post was pretty obviously pointing out that if you are town, all you've done is make common sense statements about your wagon with no real analysis.

who are you currently reading as town?

what are your other thoughts on the game?

[Rail Tracer]

i don't really have an issue with that. it's a statement titus would probably make regardless of alignment. wrong-headed as it may be.

[Rail Tracer]

i really hate these drive-by post-and-runs by DB. it's so blatantly scummy that it's making me second guess.

[Rail Tracer]

WE can argue strategy or we can argue who is scum.

when are you going to do the latter?

[Rail Tracer]

fun fact: i've never been wrong, it's just i've sometimes lied about my actual reads.

[Rail Tracer]

You're dead, your vote does not count.

omg... i cannot believe you modkilled him for something like th-

The above post appears to be a joke.

oh, now i see what's going on.

jeez, had me fooled for a moment.

[Rail Tracer]

friendly advice because i'm a friendly guy.

i suggest someone hammers in the next (expired on 2013-09-23 19:00:00) because that sounds like a good idea.

[Rail Tracer]

the amished tell isn't mentioning your predecessor, and it's a shitty fucking tell that was never really a tell anyway

i'm sure it's been used to mislynch more than it has to correctly lynch scum using the "tell"

[Rail Tracer]

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah you're gonna need to do a little more than that if you sincerely want a notscience lynch with 2 days to go to the deadline

[Rail Tracer]

elaborate on why you think "ns needs rope"

[Rail Tracer]

that's your first mention of ns as far as i can tell (outside of responses to him). is that just sheeping ak's vote or do you have your own reasons?

[Rail Tracer]

Her last post looked very much like "ugh I really really don't want to lynch him so I'll just sit my vote here"

eh, considering she said she'd hammer DB later, i don't really see this.

that said, i don't really understand the vote, since it's not like people are just gonna go, "oh fuck, yeah, totally see the light, let's disband the DB wagon!"

[Rail Tracer]

i highly doubt dessew was perceived as a threat because of his suspicions. more likely PR hunting or something.

anyway, my pool of suspects today is {mario, mogamma, natirasha}. outside chance at titus and maaaaaaybe ns if someone can convince me, but these three i feel are most likely scum.

general question for anyone to answer: where's the scum on this wagon?

Daniel Bryan (7): Rebel Without a Pulse, Rail Tracer. Brian Skies, Sound of Silence, Natirasha, Dessew, Titus (LYNCH)

[Rail Tracer]

i think nat and mario are town.

why?

can we lynch notscience today?

why?

[Rail Tracer]

@ak,
why is natirasha town? name at least one scum on the DB wagon.

@nat,

i'm not sure he's town or i wouldn't have said i'd wagon him if someone can convince me. i just don't think he's scum.

[Rail Tracer]

... do you really think the wagon was entirely town if sos is town?

that would be an amazing coincidence in a game of this size with 7 to lynch.

[Rail Tracer]

@ak,

i would like you to explain the nat town read because i'm going over his iso now and don't see it. he largely coasted by d1 contributing virtually nothing in the way of content and his position on the db wagon is about where i'd expect scum.

for reference, i'm reading the other three players at the front end of the db wagon as town and i do not believe there was no scum on that wagon.

It is not completely out of the realm of imagination to assume that seven people voted wrong--even assuming the worst numbers of 3 scum+SK, that leaves 9 town to mislynch.

no, it is highly unlikely given how hesitant people were to lynch DB. that suggests there was already scum on the wagon. i may be wrong about one of my town reads in the early part of the wagon, but i'm almost certain there was at least one, maybe two scum on the wagon prior to titus's hammer.

If there must be scum on the wagon, it's probably between Brian, Rail Tracer, and Titus.

if you had to pick one, tell me who you'd pick

[Rail Tracer]

what was town about that post?

[Rail Tracer]

why are YOU not considering NS?

holy shit. this is like the third time in 15 minutes i have to say this.

maaaaaaybe ns if someone can convince me

you're not convincing me.

i could be biased in that he's on the same page as me, in regards to NS.

that sounds like a shit reason. if ns is actually town, then he could be on the same page as you because he's scum who... you know... likes mislynches.

but he's not even on the same page as you, because he's not voting ns.

[Rail Tracer]

how the fuck am i being difficult?

i said if you convince me, i'll consider voting ns.

that's about as not difficult as i can be, so consider yourself lucky.

[Rail Tracer]

first off, because NS seems scum. i think i already spewed forth my opinions with him.

i don't think Titus looks as bad as NS is making him out to be

plus, NS's first post and reads, were bad. can't really get over that

this ... isn't convincing...

[Rail Tracer]

that;s pretty much the only thing that sticks out for me, with Nat. Otherwise, i think he is town.

see, my biggest problem with nat is that i don't see any town in his posts. he has literally coasted through the entire game since he replaced in. some bullshit about needing to find "tempo" but then the rest of d1 was spent riding out the DB lynch and providing zero content. i also felt kinda meh about some of the things he was saying, like when he parroted my thoughts on the lack of counter-wagon and him trying to force a town block.

the other problem i have with the slot is i consider the way saki replaced out a minor scum tell. it was minor enough that i was willing to overlook it, but saki replacing out after HP brought up meta for why saki wasn't playing his town game looked like saki upset that he was caught. but yeah, this is rather minor so whatever.

[Rail Tracer]

@ak,

you say you didn't like ns's initial reads post. what did you think of natirasha's?

I thought Saki replaced out due to issues with Ongoing games?

he voluntarily replaced out when HP brought up an ongoing game to talk about why saki wasn't playing to his town meta.

I pushed my scumreads, defended my townreads, while attempting to setup the groundwork for an ns lynch. If you call that coasting, so be it, we'll have to agree to disagree

i feel you had no presence in the game. you commented on various things, but never really questioned anyone. you never strongly pushed or defended anyone, you just made minor comments here and there.

[Rail Tracer]

here, for him, he''s just a part of the summary - as in, no big deal.

you might have a point that this is unusual, but it doesn't seem to me to be alignment indicative.

if you look at a lot of his posts, it seems a lot like's he's just asking opinions, mostly... rather that stating them.

*shrug* i do this a lot when i'm trying to figure out the game. the exchange i had with him shortly after he entered the game left me feeling he was town, and while i didn't like the insistence on dessew being scum, it's not like he had a lack of opinions. for example, you even criticised his opinion on titus's posts, and i believe he was the first one to bring up the point about the lack of counter-wagon on db.

i thinnk HP looked pretty scummy

hmm. i disagree. i didn't like a lot of his early posts, but i feel his later posts looked town. the thing that got him force-replaced is an example of town-looking content.

[Rail Tracer]

hmm just read ns's iso and don't see the obvscum you apparently do. i'm thinking town. the persistence on dessew is the only thing that worries me but i'm chalking that up to ns being shit.

[Rail Tracer]

give me a break. it totally is .. strange. you have to admit that.

correct. and it's abnormal whether scum or town, which is why i don't consider it alignment indicative.

and maybe you are trying to be non-biased. but, beyond what you have said here... can you take a look at the other side of it?

i do look at both sides. all my reads are based on whether i think the actions of a player are more likely to come from town or scum. the exchange i had left me feeling he was town. i didn't like his unwillingness to reconsider the dessew read, which is the only thing i really saw that made me think more likely scum. the rest of his posts i'm leaning town on.

i can somewhat kinda see what you're saying about him, but i disagree. i don't share your qualms with his initial reads post, and i liked a lot of his earlier posts when he had just replaced in.

how????

minor towntell that he brought up an ongoing game to talk about why he thought saki was acting scummy. i also liked a lot of the questions he was asking and shared some of his opinions on stuff in his later posts.

ok. so you think nat then. who else?

mario, mogamma and maybe titus. i think i said this at the start of today.

[Rail Tracer]

it's also possible i'm reading one of {sos, rwap and brian skies} incorrectly, but i don't know which one.

[Rail Tracer]

hm. i think you're giving saki too much credit for the retracted pgo claim and i dunno why you think natirasha has looked town so far. which is kind of disappointing because other than that, we're mostly on the same page.

[Rail Tracer]

why were you reading him as town in 527?

[Rail Tracer]

i briefly skimmed his iso and see a lot of similar things here and there. less fluff in his initial posts, but same lack of presence and coasting feel.

[Rail Tracer]

@sos,

the way in which he coasted through d1 (even if he claims he didn't). i feel a lot of his posts felt hollow and the lack of presence feels off.

i'm looking back at what he said and did in retrospect, with regards to the DB wagon. from 401 to 423 to 456 to 462, the way his read progressed on db felt unnatural. the minor comments he made in regards to the db wagon (e.g. 493, him parroting me in 522 and his response to db in 555). 555 in particular bugs me. the first response to db doesn't even really make sense given natirasha's supposed reads at the time, the second statement is meh, the third statement just feels like blatant buddying (there was no reason to add the "-town").

speaking of buddying me, his read progression on me also felt rather unnatural given how he was apparently completely null on me (that in itself is rather weird given how much i'd actually posted at the time, but whatever), then after a case i made on DB he suddenly put me in his "town blocK".

i also have issues with his initial reads post (which i kind of went over a bit d1, and he brushed it off as needing to find tempo). this is partially why i didn't want to spoonfeed him a case on db and wanted to hear his opinion of db before i said anything about my own thoughts.

If you're going to skim my games, you might see a model of my town day one play in Castle Mafia.

no, i don't really care about meta. i was asking sos the question because i wanted to hear the specific reasons he thought you were town in that game - mostly because i was interested in what he thinks is different about this game.

[Rail Tracer]

So you want people to answer this without answering it yourself.

what are you smoking? it should be pretty fucking obvious who i think is scum on the wagon. (hint: you're wrong about my top three suspects not being on the wagon, you derptard)

Then you drill our slot to answer it after others ignored it.

because natirasha answered it and sos made it clear who they suspect? duh?

I don't really believe you believe this, just saying.

i have no retort for this. you win this battle!

[Rail Tracer]

who are you thinking about voting nacho?

[Rail Tracer]

your scum suspects are mario, nati and anyone else?

[Rail Tracer]

mala, i'm treating you like a person, just not one worth giving a serious response to.

when you start realising how blatantly obvious it is that i'm town and how off your reads are, we'll talk.

besides, there's nothing in your posts worth commenting on, really. this part i'm not saying in jest. i just couldn't find anything that was really worth discussing in anything you said.

[Rail Tracer]

@ns,

thoughts on natirasha?

[Rail Tracer]

what are your other reads, titus?

[Rail Tracer]

no it's hp

[Rail Tracer]

thoughts on 715?

[Rail Tracer]

are you going to give intermediate updates on your thoughts or just do it all in one post at the end? i would prefer the former.

[Rail Tracer]

no, ceph is hp, not hc. for the second time now.

[Rail Tracer]

I'm leaning Nati-town

why?

also pretty sure you're l-3 not l-2 but whatever

[Rail Tracer]

Scumreading ns? Really? v.v

going to take a stab in the dark and say ceph has not read anything today

[Rail Tracer]

i am pretty sure ak is town, just very, very misguided.

[Rail Tracer]

This is a really strange reaction to "I'm going to post a case on Daniel Bryan". Why would you not wait to actually see it...?

because it wasn't a reaction to that. i didn't care what rwap's case was. it had nothing to do with the reasons i thought db was scummy.

[Rail Tracer]

thoughts on 715, nati? it kind of irks me that you ignored it.

[Rail Tracer]

@nat,

nah i was more referring to the points about your DB vote and comments in regard to DB. 555 in particular, which stands out as a really bad post.

[Rail Tracer]

@ceph,

why titus? i see no mention of titus outside that one thing you said about the natirasha comment, and i was fairly meh about that one.

[Rail Tracer]

mm. i thought fuduzn's ate looked sorta genuine, but i didn't like the fact that

all he did

was ate and whine (to the point that the whining was nonsensical) and promise to catch up and post thoughts but never did.

i'm not sure on titus. i didn't like the sudden switch to ns and that still hasn't been explained (despite a few requests to elaborate on why she's reading ns as scum). and her play has been underwhelming.

what are your thoughs on nati? why is he ??? ?

[Rail Tracer]

this game could be as simple as something like nati-titus-mario

which would kind of make sense given the first two's complete lack of stances on the third.

[Rail Tracer]

Were the two things I provided inaccurate explanations for why a supposed-scum DB wouldn't have a counter wagon on him?

who did you think (consider) was scum bussing him and how did this match up with your reads at the time?

[Rail Tracer]

the more i think about it, the less you addressed db in 555 makes sense.

i'm thinking about why you phrased the first part of the first response as a question, and it makes little sense to me from the perspective you're town speaking to someone you think is scum. it makes less sense given your reads at the time. and yes, i'm aware that you were reiterating the fact you thought i was town. that just makes it even more odd.

[Rail Tracer]

it's like, why bother reiterating that? outside of maaaaaaaaaaybe titus who had seemed to drop her suspicion of me at that time, nobody was really calling me scum then, so i can't see it as anything but an attempt at buddying me for no good reason, other than perhaps to get me on your good side (which, ironically, has somewhat backfired).

[Rail Tracer]

There is a lot more detail that I need to articulate on these two

indeed, and when you do, be sure to articulate on the details of your other reads.

I think that will always be the case.

how do you decide when to lynch him?

[Rail Tracer]

Why reiterate your town? To make sure it was established that I disagreed with the notion that thought you were scum? I think your reading too much into that statement. Is reiteration necessarily a bad thing?

it's not so much the reiteration of the read, but the way you did it. attaching "-town" to the end is odd. i don't think i am reading too much into this. it looked like you were trying to set up a situation where db looked bad for not explaining his vote on a town player.

[Rail Tracer]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

so basically we're fucked if you're town and you and him are alive at lylo.

[Rail Tracer]

@nati,

why is ak not scum for doing the exact same thing multiple times?

also my point was that you were trying to discredit him specifically for attacking a town player and making him look worse.

[Rail Tracer]

I'm saying its objectively bad to attack a player who for the most part town read with no justification

i disagree with this on so many levels, and it's one of the reasons i was wavering on my read on DB towards the end of the day. i think i specifically pointed this out as a reason DB might not be scum.

it might be objectively bad in the sense that it's bad play, but it's not objectively bad in the sense that it's scummy.

but anyway, i digress.

nothing you have said, and i expect nothing you will say, will make me think differently about my perception of what you said yesterday unless you start doing stuff that looks really town today (and so far i'm not seeing it).

why don't you expand on some of your reads? talk a little more about why ns is scum, and who your other scum reads are, and maybe some of your other general thoughts on the game.

[Rail Tracer]

^ thoughts on natirasha, mario, titus and the HC slot

[Rail Tracer]

Mario is for the lack of, well, anything this game--if we don't deal with him, at the current rate he will get a free trip to LyLo. Don't like that one bit.

that sounds like a policy lynch, not a scum read, just saying.

Moreover, I don't think he has taken a strong stance on fucking anybody all game

what counts as a strong stance? if you mean firmly calling people town or scum, then he took a fair few strong stances (including the main one you left out - the dessew read). if you mean something else by strong stance, i'll need you to elaborate here.

[Rail Tracer]

like it wasn't just pushing dessew for a minor ding, part of the fucking case on ns is that he took too strong a stance on dessew.

[Rail Tracer]

also why are you townreading ceph?

[Rail Tracer]

i think brian skies is town. remind me to talk about why #811 was almost certainly a town post at some point later on today.

[Rail Tracer]

@brian skies, what are your current scum reads?

[Rail Tracer]

RT I still have as town. I feel like our impressions of the game state are diverging, though, and I'm trying to find the root causes of that divergence.

[Rail Tracer]

other than perhaps the nati read, what impressions do you think we're diverging on?

[Rail Tracer]

^ @sos obv

@brian

who are you thinking about voting?

[Rail Tracer]

if you really believe mario should be PLed, the earlier the better. why not get rid of him today? the longer you delay it, the closer it gets to lylo where it actually matters. but that was beside my point. you're calling him a scum read for lack of contribution, but that sounds entirely like you want to PL him because he

could

be scum who isn't contributing, not because you think he

is

scum.

in regards to HP, what was with the following...?

So, plan tomorrow: get the thinktank going and lynch notscience. Hope you're with us nacho!

{SoS, Rail Tracer} not lynching
{Rebel, Dessew, Titus, Brian Skies, Artemis Kitty} need a really strong case
{Mario, Mogamma, HP-slot} come chat some time
{Notscience} kill it

why was HP not in your "not lynching" block given how strongly you seemed to think he was town?

like, yeah, ok, he was being replaced. so what?

If Humble Poirot is scum, it's completely possible he couldn't actually change his vote at all.

this was when you were talking about how there may not have been scum on the DB lynch. it doesn't really sound like something you say about someone you thought was really town looking.

---

I have the impression you thought that could be a vig kill.

um... i explicitly said i thought it was likely a kill based on trying to snipe a PR. mostly because i can't think of any other reason he'd have been killed by anyone over other candidates.

[Rail Tracer]

can you read HC and mogamma's posts (there aren't really that many so it shouldn't take you that much time) and tell me what you think of them?

[Rail Tracer]

O
M
G

it just hit me.

Ugh...phone ate my post. Shit sucks.

YOU CHEATING FUCK

But wait. It seems that the cameraman spied a flash of backlit cell phones. Everybody knows cheating is wrong! You can't just google the answers! The cameraman makes you a deal. Turn in the cheaters, and the game can continue. Otherwise, you all are going to be hoofing it from the middle of nowhere, which is exactly where this cab is headed.

CONFIRMED SCUM

[Rail Tracer]

Ffery, thoughts on Ceph, RT, ns and I.

why did you choose these 4 players to ask about, btw?


@brian

is there a reason you're not voting titus?

[Rail Tracer]

Not sure what you're wanting me to glean from this.

nothing in particular. i was just wondering whether you had any thoughts on the slot. you pretty much deferred your read there, whereas everyone else you have a read on to some degree.

one other question: what specifically did you not like about ns's first post today? or why did it make you want to vote him?

Lol. Thanks for the laugh. Seriously, it was getting pretty serious in here.

#835 is the only serious post i've made today.

[Rail Tracer]

I read this and no less than three people have my slot as PoE scum. It is too damn early for PoE scum as we don't even have a flip. Is that the best people do? Use your brains.

this whole line bugs me. even apart from the fact that titus must know poe is a tool some people use to find scum (even early in the game), the tone of it just feels off.

Rail Tracer, why are you pressing so much on read fishing. I don't like that.

i don't really understand what you're asking here. are you saying you don't like me asking for reads? because that seems like a rather dumb thing to dislike.

I can see NS as scum with RT.

do you think i'm scum?

what's your read on natirasha and mario?

[Rail Tracer]

this game could be as simple as something like nati-titus-mario

which would kind of make sense given the first two's complete lack of stances on the third.

yeah, reading over titus's latest post, i'm thinking the guy who made the above post is an insanely good player and a genius.

[Rail Tracer]

to be fair, it's not actually a blatant lie since the last thing you said about fuduzn is that he could be town.

[Rail Tracer]

764 the last thing you say about fuduzn is that he could be town, and after that you didn't really mention any of fuduzn's quotes. you did, however, suggest that rwap could be performing an excellent white-knight on fuduzn when you commented on one of rwap's quotes in 773.

*shrug* just saying, it's not exactly a lie.

[Rail Tracer]

@sos,

if i were to start a wagon on nati, would you help me lynch him?

[Rail Tracer]

I generally don't like to make a comprehensive read-post, mostly to keep some cards close to my chest.

don't do that, please. i can honestly not think of a good reason not to give your entire thoughts on the game.

i'm not asking you to go into great detail on your town reads or anything if you don't want to, but at the very least go into some detail on all your scum reads, and state your other reads.

How confident are you on your Nati-wagon?

very. i'm thinking {cephrir, ak, sos, rwap, brian} town (sort of in --> order of confidence, but these are mostly interchangeable - i don't really have a "strongest" town read at the moment). of the rest of the playerlist, i'm thinking ns is the least likely to be scum but i'm not willing to put him in my town list. that leaves me with {prohawk, titus, mario, natirasha} (also sort of in order, with natirasha as the most likely scum).

At the risk of sounding like Scumrir, why isn't Mario dead yet?

Seriously, can anyone honestly answer that question?

ah, the benefits of being a lurky fuck. you largely get ignored over active players who are "suspicious".

mario isn't a bad lynch, i'd prefer nati today, though.

Vote: Natirasha

[Rail Tracer]

i think brian skies is town. remind me to talk about why #811 was almost certainly a town post at some point later on today.

maybe tomorrow, if i'm still alive. it's not important to day if he's not being run up.

[Rail Tracer]

it might help change minds of those who think he is scummy.

ok. and if he gets run up, then i will. otherwise, i don't really care who finds him "scummy" today.

[Rail Tracer]

yeah, and in that sense it's better that i

don't

talk about why i think he's town and let them continue attacking him. do you think i'm unable to monitor that?

[Rail Tracer]

my thoughts aren't that important that it matters if they go unsaid. i think he's town, if i'm dead tomorrow and others disagree, or don't understand why i thought he's town, then so be it. i'm obviously not infallible so i could even be wrong in my reasoning, anyway.

[Rail Tracer]

NS, Cephir and Prohawk

You should probably lay off the drugs.

Unfortunately they might be town drugs.

you are correct on both points, most likely.

[Rail Tracer]

cephy, can i call you cephy? (i don't care, i'm calling you that anyway)

care to lynch natirasha?

[Rail Tracer]

because i very much think NS is scum. if i'm wrong on that... i will have to re-adjust.

is anything going to change your mind today, or are you confbiasing until ns flips and then reassessing?

[Rail Tracer]

you know... if you're

completely wrong in your reads

, what ceph said is not that bad at all.

[Rail Tracer]

(also i am fairly sure that cephy isn't voting mario because of "lurking" - it just so happens that mario is a lurker)

[Rail Tracer]

@sos,

how's the meta stuff going and what needs to happen to get you to see what i'm seeing?

[Rail Tracer]

it isn't, for two reasons. the first being that i specifically clarified that i don't care if he explains his town reads as long as he states them, and the second being no.

[Rail Tracer]

i forget who you think is scum.

titus and... mario?

[Rail Tracer]

if it weren't for the nati read, we'd still be mostly on the same page. :/

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i don't know if he still does, but he did at the start of today (although he said his preferred vote was mario)

will see what nacho says when he eventually catches up, though

[Rail Tracer]

How are you feeling about Ceph?

most likely town

@RT,

(1)

I'm saying it is possible you are scum with NS. Not certain.

(2)

If you were scum with NS, your defense of me doesn't make much sense. However, you might be aware of the fact I'm suspecting you together and want to defend me a bit.

(3)

Comments like ns is the least likely to be scum but being unwilling to have him in your town list create this impression (post 971 for reference). Mario, there isn't enough to read on his slot.

(4)

I like Natirasha as town and see no reason to push him ATM.

(1) this is kind of a useless statement, then, since from your POV it should be possible that i'm scum with everyone.
(2) i wasn't defending you. i actually think you're very likely to be scum. i did, however, point out some inconsistencies with what cephy was saying - that's not because i think you're town, but because i'm objectively judging the merit of each case.
(3) i'm not confident that ns is town, but out of the players that i'm not reading as town, he looks more town than the rest. *shrug* you can take this to mean whatever you want it to mean.
(4) why is natirasha town?

Titus' scum reads are so laughable I have trouble seeing them as something a scum player would actually put forth.

i'm not actually sure what to make of it. i

could

see this titus doing something so outrageously odd that people will think she's less likely scum (she has probably seen my thought processes enough to know this is how i think about things sometimes). or it's just genuine town-crazy. it makes me feel uneasy in the same way DB's play at the end of D1 made me feel uneasy about my scum read on him.

Why do you think [brian is] town?

mostly for the tone of his posts, the arguments he's been making, and specific interactions with players i think are very likely to be scum.

would you help me lynch nati today?

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prohawk makes a good point at the bottom of #988 about AK. i think AK is town, but i am ignoring most of AK's arguments because they're nonsensical.

[Rail Tracer]

why do you think nati is town, ns?

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assume no one agrees with your brian case for a moment, prohawk (i know, i know, it's hard to imagine, but we'll talk about it theoretically for now)

who would you be willing to vote and why?

[Rail Tracer]

Lets start hearing counter-arguments to what I have presented.

er...

i disagree with the 'hypothesis' in #993 (or rather, i think the evidence is unconvincing).

and he's already explained the HP stuff.

so i'm not sure exactly what you want to hear counter-arguments to.

[Rail Tracer]

like, i mean, you went on to refute some of your own points in #993, but ended up hypothesising that he was avoiding the thread here and waiting for others to find DB suspicious. and this is the crux of your hypothesis about him being cautious scum. *shrug* he could be scum, you could be right, but i see no reason to think so atm, and i'd rather not lynch him because you

could

be right.

[Rail Tracer]

oooooooooooh.

1480 was the game HP referenced that got him force-replaced.

yeah, that just makes me even more sure about the point i made about saki's replacement.

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@titus,

when you say you see no evidence of nati scum do you mean the arguments have been unconvincing or do you literally mean you can't think of a reason why nati is scum? because i can give you like 10 reasons off the top of my head, from my analysis of the d1 wagon to way saki replaced to nati's actual play so far.

why does reading and contributing make someone town?

[Rail Tracer]

like i mean i'm reading and contributing (i think), sos is reading and contributing (i think), but you have us as scum reads apparently, so...................

[Rail Tracer]

Why do you keep dismissing players you disagree with as nonsensical? You did it first with me nd now AK.

i don't really know what you're talking here. i remember calling fuduzn's posts nonsensical (because they were - he was making a bigger deal out of the "wagon" on him than he should have been, and pretending he was being attacked by many players when it was more like 3-4 max, and the stuff he was saying about scum attacking him and whatnot was just plain dumb) but i don't remember talking about you, except that i didn't like your sudden shift to NS at the end of yesterday and you've been underwhelming so far.

as for AK, his arguments

are

nonsensical. prohawk did a good job of pointing out why, and that's a large part of why i'm ignoring him suggesting that someone attacking a town read of his is likely scum

while simultaneously suggesting there may have been no scum on the DB wagon

. because that appears to be the crux of the reasons they think certain players are scum. i also think his reads are so far off it's not funny.

illogical statements, hostility to questions, etc. Those suggest scum

no, not really, but outside of the rqs hydra bullshit, what are you referring to here? what illogical statements and any other hostility?

[Rail Tracer]

(I'm liking this for his towngame)

:<

2- I don't see the possibility for a Titus-Nati scumteam.

y

---

@sos,

when do you synch? need more nati votes.

[Rail Tracer]

:< reading your posts makes me sad. would your opinion of ns change if nati is scum?

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i'm currently thinkinggggggggg nati+titus+mario still makes the most sense as a scum team at this point.

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Titus is where you lose me. I think Prohawk or Brian both make more sense for the middleman.

*shrug* i'm not attacking titus today, mainly because i think titus's play always looks somewhat scummy. nati today, mario slot tomorrow? figured out the last one after that, i guess.

[Rail Tracer]

hm. brian could be scum, actually. but deal with that later.

@brian,

vote nati?

[Rail Tracer]

I don't really see how that works, but sure. Why anti town?

[Rail Tracer]

Yeah. Why not? It was a wagon on town, so it's not like she would have been worried about anything. It's possible Titus-scum was just spreading suspicion. She could also be town who was genuinely suspicious, though, so I'm not reading too much into it.

What are the "anti town" reasons?

[Rail Tracer]

don't facepalm me. that's mean.

[Rail Tracer]

Does it bother you?

nah, i'm curious, though. i can't really think of an anti-town reason you'd have for not wanting to vote nati except if you think he's town or something :/

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i don't believe that claim at all.

1. I wasn't sure if I'd crumbed enough to make it obvious I would die to ns if he was scum.

... no

where did you crumb that you'd be hiding behind titus? or that you were considering it, even?

2. I wanted to see if who ns was targeting was really town(I don't think ns would bus).

this is such a bad reason that i can't actually believe you'd actually think this as a town hider.

also, none of the following quotes make sense from the perspective you

know

titus is town. you haven't been hard-defending her all day, she isn't even among your strongest town reads.

I think we need to take another look at Titus, although I am still leaning town.

If there

must

be scum on the wagon, it's probably between Brian, Rail Tracer,

and Titus

.

but I like SoS, you, kitty, nacho, Cephrir. That leaves Titus and Pro hawk as other choices

[Rail Tracer]

.........................

ANSWER THIS QUESTION: where did you crumb that you'd be hiding behind titus?

because you're an experienced enough player to know that if you were really a hider and you had died because you targeted titus last night, we'd most likely be lynching notscience today because you failed to crumb properly. and you apparently didn't even think it's likely that they're scum together, so this would be a fucking godawful play if you're actually a hider. i'm now virtually sure you're scum because you're not this bad a player from what i've seen.

and no, i don't buy that you were "throwing me off" when you mentioned that titus wasn't even among your strongest town reads. if you'd somehow died tonight and didn't crumb it properly (again) how the fuck would we have figured out your n1 target?

[Rail Tracer]

I didn't decide who I was targetting until the night phase

this is why you're scum. you're not a hider.

also you were having second thoughts on ns at the start of today, so your reasoning is bullshit for this reason as well.

[Rail Tracer]

look, i'll explain it slowly because you apparently haven't thought this through very much.

you claim that you targeted titus because

you weren't sure if you'd crumbed targeting ns enough

<- this alone is bullshit because you didn't crumb titus

at all

and NS was the person on the very bottom of your reads list so is the first person we'd have suspected if you died hiding behind titus. this would have been even worse if titus is scum and ns is town, because you'd be responsible for a lynch on town and we'd have no idea that you actually hid behind titus.

but at the start of D2 you were having second thoughts about ns, which suggests he would have been the better option to hide behind N1 anyway, to confirm him one way or the other.

and all this aside, you didn't crumb your N1 target, and you haven't crumbed the hide behind titus, so i ask again, how the fuck were we meant to figure out that you had hid behind titus n1 if you died, and how the fuck would we have known titus was your n1 target if you died n2? speaking of which, how the fuck would we have known your n2 target, since you apparently don't crumb at all as a hider?

this is a bullshit claim that needs to be lynched.

[Rail Tracer]

also, your claim aside,

For the VCA, I discounted Rebel because he did the legwork on the DB case

you discounted him because he did legwork on a mislynch? yeah, no, this needs to die.

Rebel has been equally a non-entity in this game, but a weird looming presence. I'm having extraordinary trouble sorting him out due to this presence-but-no-presence thing.

but he's not even among your first three choices for scum on the DB wagon. behind a person YOU KNOW IS TOWN APPARENTLY, and someone who you're apparently strongly reading as town.

[Rail Tracer]

beast is probably the last scum. doubting three scum on the DB wagon and the rest of it looks town.

off the wagon, probably not AK despite being so massively wrong in all their reads it's not funny (lol if AK actually put both their partners in their sure-as-fuck-town list). probably not NS either - don't really see the nati stuff as bussing. and probably not prohawk either unless he's the super-confident bus the fuck out of both my partners scum type but i don't think that's all that likely atm.

therefore beast.

[Rail Tracer]

no, i commented on it. just not overtly. it's pretty clear from what i said about AK and what i said about the DB wagon that i think brian is scum.

you're PoE scum, but i also think your slot is scum anyway. and no, this has nothing to do with what natirasha said in his final post.

[Rail Tracer]

Stuff to talk about before we close up shop on day 3?

hm. i had something to say, but i think it's better i talk about it tomorrow, assuming i'm still alive.

and all the other stuff that's currently being talked about can be talked about among the living players tomorrow.

so may as well make this a quick day.

Vote: Brian

[Rail Tracer]

ok. mass claim is fine with me.

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why didn't you claim miller, btw?

[Rail Tracer]

if we're doing a mass claim, i'll talk about it after that.