N's Notably Narcissistic Nonsensical Namesake (game over)

[Mitillos]

Hello, everyone. I'll need some time to go through 27 pages, so please don't expect a post from me until tomorrow.

[Mitillos]

Alright, time to post.

BBMolla: Regular posts, numerous reads, almost none of them substantiated. But I think this is consistent with his general meta.
Read: Null.

Dante: Seems to be making a good effort to scumhunt. Some fluff and useless posts here and there, but otherwise seems alright.
Read: Town.

DeasVail: Makes clear reads and well-reasoned justifications. Is prepared to re-evaluate his reads.
Read: Town.

dopog: Liking his posts reasonably well. Also goes to the townpile.
Read: Town.

Katsuki/Pere: Starts by calling Peace scum and voting SK instead. Lots of useless fluffing for a while. Generally unhelpful and therefore anti-town. Pere is a bit better, trying to engage people, but he does seem to be overly concerned about people tunneling him. Then again, he did replace into a bad situation, with a large wagon on him.
Read: Null-scum.

Luna: Seems fine overall. Nothing stood out as particularly alignment indicative, to me. Not too much to go on, though.
Read: Null-town.

Metal: Reads are given, but without much reasoning. One head's scum and town reads are subsets of one of Luna's heads scum and town reads, respectively. Not liking this.
Read: Null-scum.

mnemonic: No scumhunting, no townhunting, little to no content. This is anti-town behaviour.
Read: Scum.

Nani: Well, bad scumhunting is better than none, I guess. Still, not much of interest here, so I can't make a read.
Read: Null.

ooba: Why the two votes in one post? Anyway, seems fine. Some reasoning seems off, but scumhunting appears to be happening.
Read: Null-town.

Peace: Not sure what to make of him. The towniness of his posts keeps going all the way up and all the way down... Not liking the "you can't convince me you're town" attitude, either.
Read: Null-scum.

Rail: Again with the two votes. What is going on? Are ooba's and your roles somehow connected? Anyway, definitely not an overwhelming beacon of towniness, but I'm not sure if people are correct in reading him as definitely scum. Would have liked more explanations for his reads and votes, on the whole.
Read: Null-town.

Shadowy Poison: Generally liking most of their posts.
Read: Town.

SleepyKrew/Diabolic: Seems alright. A bit too much fluff, but that can't be helped, I guess.
Read: Null-town.

neromollie: Early posts seem scummy. Later ones mitigate this, though.
Read: Null-town.

Vifam/Radiant: Nothing to see here, moving on.
Read: Null.

And with that,

Unvote

Vote: mnemonic

The approaching deadline means I'm likely to move to Pere, but I think that mnemonic is a better lynch, at this time.

p-edit: Hmmm... Need to rethink that last bit, a little.

[Mitillos]

EBWOP: Apologies for the wall. Also, I will never replace into a large game ever again. Or at least, not one that's past the 10th page.

[Mitillos]

@Rail: Yes, seriously. It may not be the most effective scumhunting, but it's an attempt. It could be faked, but so could most things. And fair enough, you don't have to tell me if they're connected. But why the two votes on the same person in the same post?

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Yes, they are lazy. But then, I did need to read through 27 pages and read 16 players, so what did you expect?
Re Dante: Post 55 (eliminate the WIFOM), his discussion with Nani (posts 638-645), some of his questions to Peace and Pere.
Re Deas: Giving well-reasoned justifications for your reads generally means they are coming from a town mindset (i.e. trying to find those who can be shown to be scum and convincing the rest of the town of this). Being prepared to reevaluate one's reads usually means you are open to arguments based on reasoning. This is also pro-town behaviour.
Re dopog: His posts with significant content (115 and 466) seem to me to be coming from a natural town thought process. Those are the ones I meant, when I said I liked his posts.

My town-read on you is equally lazy. Any particular reason you skipped that? What do you think of Pere's claim? You gave some names in what I believe were scumreads, earlier. Were those in order of strength, or just arbitrary?

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: 1) Links to the reasons for all my reads? Sorry, but I'm not doing that, it's too much work, for very little gain. I gave you post numbers for two of the people you asked about. If you have a few specific people where my reads seem strange to you, give me specifics and I will do my best to oblige.
2) Eliminating the WIFOM may not be scumhunting directly, but it helps make scumhunting easier. So, yeah, alright, I take your point about that bit. As for the Nani-dopog thing, illustrating a non-point has little value. Being apologetic is not a scumtell. Harping on a single word being used repeatedly ("sorry"), is not good scumhunting and I think it is good that Dante questioned it.
3) You would expect scum to try appearing pro-town, but they often don't. And given two people of whom one appears pro-town and the other appears anti-town, I will vote the anti-town one, unless I have other evidence to suggest this would be the wrong decision. As it happens, since this is D1, we don't yet have any such evidence, as far as I know. So, I will go with my Deas read as it stands.
4) Fencesitting is a null-tell. Scum does it because of opportunism, town does it when it's not feeling confident. A weak case doesn't make someone scum. A lack of attempt at any case whatsoever would have been far more suspicious to me. You could be right about the soft-bussing thing, but I'm sure it will become obvious at some point, if that is the case.

1) Fair enough.
2) Also fair enough.
3) OK.

@mnemonic: Which one? The reads, or my response to Shadow?

[Mitillos]

@ooba: ...Wouldn't your role PM tell you if you were a double-voter? Why would you need to experiment? Also, shouldn't everyone be buying Pere's claim, at least for now? That is, if his role is confirmable, presumably he will take steps to confirm it by tomorrow. And if he does not, he lied, therefore lynch. At least that's what seems to me to be the best course of action. So, Deas jumping on a secondary suspect with an existing wagon seems fine to me.

@mnemonic: So, are you suggesting that I shouldn't have made any reads? I thought that reads were very much the point of this game. Is it the fact it's a wall? As I replaced in, I couldn't have made my reads earlier, so they have to take quite a bit of space, given the number of players. Your attack on my post seems invalid and I think it betrays the fact that my read on you is correct. But I was wondering, why the sudden jump on dopog? You seemed content to stay on Dante whilst the wagons on Pere and dopog formed, so now that the Pere wagon is likely to start crumbling (due to his claim), you immediately get on the other one?

[Mitillos]

Look at Metal's vote. It appears to be a double vote. We can say that that's his power and is pretty much confirmed.
Consider the fruit vendor power. He sends a fruit to someone every night. The fruit just tells the recipient that he got a fruit from that person. And so, that person has to be a fruit vendor.
There's all sorts of confirmable roles.

[Mitillos]

Well, that promised confirmation from PereV would be nice.
If that happens, I'll be going back to my mnemonic vote. Otherwise, Pere it is.

[Mitillos]

@Molla: You think it's likely that the double-voter will be mafia?

[Mitillos]

@Luna: Well, now, I have no idea. No one seems to have confirmed that they were targeted by Pere... And he hasn't given us the name of his supposed target. I'm inclined to think he may be scum, but I'm willing to wait until everyone has said something.
I'd like to hear more from RC, too. Her claim needs more information. She claims a guilty result on someone, but has not voted. Seems fairly scummy to me, pointing the finger, but not actually placing the vote. If she's being truthful, of course, Peace needs to go first.

So, what happens now is, I wait some more and suggest that we keep an eye on PereV, RC, Peace and of course, my favourite suspect from yesterday, mnemonic.

What are your thoughts on all this?

[Mitillos]

@BB: In addition to the whole "naive always gets innocent, what exactly do you mean?" question, I have another one: How do you know you are naive? I thought that generally speaking, a cop wouldn't know that he's not sane, otherwise, what's the point of having it there?

[Mitillos]

@DV: Do you mean he wouldn't be informed of a change in his role? See post 800, where nero's power was explained. It explicitly states that whoever gets changed gets informed.

[Mitillos]

@BB: So, wait. You're a naive cop, who got a guilty result, is in a neighbourhood and knows that someone specific is a paranoid cop?
Why do I feel that all this makes absolutely no sense and you're just trying to obfuscate matters?
Is the paranoid cop your neighbour? Did they also get told that they were not sane?

Every role we've seen so far was made up of two N-words and had two components to its description. You are claiming three components (Cop, Naive, Neighbour). I'm not sure I believe you.

[Mitillos]

@Deas and Peace: One component is fine. Two is what we've seen so far. Three seems like a stretch. Which was my point.

Plus, we haven't actually seen your roles yet. I was talking about the flips.

[Mitillos]

@RT: You don't find it strange that we'd have a naive cop neighbour, who knows both his sanity status and the identity of a paranoid cop?

[Mitillos]

I think I'm OK with BB and RC being town, if RC will confirm the whole varying sanity cop and QT thing, assuming she *is* the paranoid one. Not sure I want BB or anyone to make a claim about the number of people in their QT, though. That's not good information to give to scum, I think.

Not sure what to make of Pere, with his unconfirmed status...

I'm still thinking mnemonic-scum.

[Mitillos]

@BB: And yet you're voting one of them. Specifically, the one who produced slightly more content, of the two.

Anyway, I have no idea what RC claimed. What is an Annie and what is a Tibbers?

[Mitillos]

@RC: I'd like some more information from you. No references to other games, though. You claimed a guilty result on Peace. What is your role? Do you know how reliable this result is? Why did you not vote Peace, if you have a guilty result on him?

@Pere: Your links seem a bit off. Anyway, maybe Networker is just N's N-word for Encryptor? You know, like Namecaller was the N-word for Framer.

[Mitillos]

@Luna:

Case 1 - BB is telling the truth. Then you're asking the mod to confirm BB's claim, at least for the fact that his role is investigative and got the wrong result last night.

Case 2 - BB is lying. Then you're asking the mod to essentially confirm BB's alignment as scum.

I'd like it if we did get told these things, but I'm not sure this would be in the spirit of the game.

[Mitillos]

Fair enough. I can see that claiming a mod error as a stratagem is a horrible precedent to set, so I take your point.

[Mitillos]

@BB: Is RC your neighbour? Can he confirm this?

@RC: See above.

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Are you even voting me?

Checked. Nope, you're voting Diabolik. And asking him to vote me with you. Is this a hydra dissonance thing, or?

[Mitillos]

@Radiant: I asked you some questions. Answer them, please. Also, why are you convinced Molla is scum?

[Mitillos]

@RC: Do you also confirm that you are a paranoid cop, who knew his sanity from the start? And also that BB is a naive cop? Furthermore, do the two of you have daytalk, currently? And is there anyone else in your QT?

@Pere: Did you ever tell us whom you targeted last night? If not, could you please do so?

[Mitillos]

@RailTracer: If RC says they don't have daytalk, Peacebringer is lying and needs rope. This should be obvious, so I'm not sure why you oppose asking the question.

[Mitillos]

Tell you what. You keep making your assumptions about the other players and I'll keep asking my questions. I've read the thread. I want RC to confirm or deny certain things. You butting in just makes you look that you're trying to either stop RC from potentially slipping up, or alternatively protect people from the consequences of their lies.

[Mitillos]

@RT: I am serious that you should stop opposing questions. I am not serious about the implication that you are protecting people and so on (remember, my read on you is null-town).

@ooba: mnem is still my strongest scum read. But, if I can find some sort of clear indication of lying somewhere, I'd rather vote for the liars, first. and with so many claimed powers, that seems likely. I think that after mnem, I'd be probably be looking more at {pere, peace, nani} first, for additional scum.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: He may have a point, but it's not a point I'm interested in.

@Pere: So, wait, are you voting Peace because you believe he's scum, or to end scum daytalk? It would also end BB and RC's daytalk. Shouldn't we go for other scum, first?

[Mitillos]

Vote: mnemonic

1053 was horrible. He needs rope. That's L-2.

[Mitillos]

EBWOP:

Vote: mnemonic

[Mitillos]

Hey Majiffy. Want to cross-tunnel with me again?

@Radiant: BB's lynch is probably not happening today, unless you make an actual serious case. So, how about you either do this, or switch to another wagon? The one on mnemonic is particularly nice, what with it being on prob-scum.
Why do you think BB is scum? Is it something specific he said? Did he scumslip in your QT, in any way?

[Mitillos]

@BB: Except you're voting Metal (I don't seem to remember your case on him; better re-read your ISO), so, why exactly are you asking for votes on Nani?

[Mitillos]

@ooba: I think that your case against BB actually points to BB derping, rather than him being scum. Also, the thing about the normaliser having two shots; I don't think that that has anything to do with the number of cops. dopog could have been normalised to something other than a compulsive framer, for instance. Also, who would expect the normaliser to somehow know exactly whom to target, with his power? I think he was two-shot, just so at least one shot might have a good chance to do something of value.

[Mitillos]

@Pere: Are you suggesting that mnemonic is bussing, by voting Peace? I'm not so sure about Peace being scummy any more, due to his claim, despite the fact that it came at a weird time.

@Majiffy: Kmd *is* Nani. That's whom he replaced.

[Mitillos]

@Pere: I agree that mnemo is scum. I've been saying that for a while. What I'm not completely sure is that he and Peace are scum together. In that post you called Peace scum and voted mnemo, who is in turn voting Peace. See what I'm getting at?

[Mitillos]

A small thought I had, regarding RC and BB:

Maybe they're telling the truth, but only about one thing: having a QT. There is a chance that RC is "pushing" for a BB lynch to distance himself. (He actually isn't pushing this lynch; he's only asking that people vote BB, and isn't making any sort of case whatever. He should be well aware that people won't just accept "gut" and sheep him on BB, so it would appear to me that this is just a ruse.) That way, if one of them dies and flips scum, the other will look better for it. The whole "non-sane cop neighbourhood" thing would also help with that, since it'd seem silly to think that a neighbourhood would contain two scum. My main problem with the neighbourhood claim is that I'd expect perhaps the other two sanities in there as well; otherwise, there's not much point, unless one of them gets normalised, which is a long-shot, to say the least.

For now, I'm happy with my mnem vote, as he's my strongest scumread, but I'll be looking over the ISOs of these two slots again and I suggest that everyone else does the same.

[Mitillos]

@RC: It's also possible you're scum and BB isn't. You could be trying to get him lynched and then you'd go "Whoops, sorry everyone, well I guess that clears me too, since we were neighbours and had similar powers".
If I had to choose between you and BB, I'd probably vote you over him largely because of your lack of a case for BB-scum, or mnem-town.
I wonder how BB feels over this betrayal from his neighbour. Tisk, tisk.

[Mitillos]

@RC: I liked your response at the end of the previous day. But I still don't see a case on BB. What exactly makes you think he's scum? Was it something he said in your QT? Was it some inconsistency? Give us something to work with.

[Mitillos]

@BB: Except the setupwise thing is meaningless. Why would it make more sense for both of you to be town? The setup is closed. And like Luna said, keep going. That's not really enough to justify a townread, so why are you so eager to read RC as town?

@Shadow: You traitor! You were tunneling me all this time and now you move on to Majiffy? Why? WHY?
Joking aside though, why is Majiffy scum? Aside from your previous attack on Diabolik. You called Majiffy scum on D2, but I didn't see your reasons.

@KMD: Why does Rail deserve your vote? Especially if you're not caught up, yet.

[Mitillos]

Can't bus. I'm in the uninformed majority.
In any case, it's already been established that Majiffy buses like a professional buser busing from a bus on the last day of busing of a week-long busing festival in busland. If we really were scumbuddies, don't you think he'd have at least given a read on me, possibly agreeing with your own, rather than blatantly ignore you?

[Mitillos]

@Kmd: So, it's based on a single thing he said? Granted, it wasn't a good thing, I agree. Lining up a lynch like that is not pro-town. But then, if he wanted to make that push, would he have killed Pere overnight?

@Everyone: Speaking of which, why did Pere die? Powerful roles (investigative, protective etc.) aren't confirmable. So, one would expect confirmable roles to not be powerful and therefore not dangerous to the mafia. I even suggested fruit vendor as a confirmable role in post 763, because it's the only obvious nightly confirmable role I can think of. So, this nightkill makes no sense, in terms of his abilities. Any thoughts?

[Mitillos]

@Luna: Not really. The reason being that not everyone's behaviour was as (seemingly) clear-cut as Katsuki's/Pere's. Also, my main two scum-reads were completely wrong and I changed my mind about MUM shortly after that post, because of his power. So, I'll probably have to re-read everything and see if anything new catches my eye.
What exactly was the "Hmmph." about? I said in that same post that I wasn't going to explain all my reads explicitly.

[Mitillos]

Busy with grading and exam preparations, so I have nothing to add at the moment.
Willing to sheep anyone who makes a convincing argument, i.e. not based on gut.
Will be back later tonight, with any luck.

[Mitillos]

@DV: I'm not sure how your role has anything to do with my lynch. Care to elaborate? Also, Luna asking for a public reveal from N is a null-tell.

@ooba: In post 1267, you split your case up into 3 parts. Here are my responses:
Part 1) How do you tell someone who is being active from someone who is trying to look active? This begs the question. As for the answers being "readily available", this is only the case if you were to take BB's word as true, in advance. I do not propose to do this, because such assumptions are unwarranted.
Part 2) Yes, my reads were weak. I suffer from not-knowing-everyone's-alignment-itis, which means I can't make categorical statements. Anyone who asserts such knowledge is either scum or an investigative role with some meaningful result. Or they found a clear contradiction in someone's words, which I have not. As for Pere and Peace not being scum together, a) how can you be so certain and more importantly b) how does this have anything to do with anything? There is the possibility of multiball, there is the possibility of them wanting to appear to not be partners and there's also the amazingly likely possiblity that at least one of my reads was wrong. So, why would I ignore one person, just because I might think that another is scum and they "can't" be scum together?
Part 3) No, I didn't question Majiffy. Others did that before, on D2. He responded to them, so why would I pointlessly ask him the same thing again, just to get the same answer?

Speaking of which, I did ISO kmd as he suggested in response to my question. His case on Rail is based on a single post. Generally speaking, a single post is not enough to make a case. Which is also my problem with Majiffy's push on kmd. Yeah, Nani's 658 was a crap case but how is it scummy, rather than derpy? And Rail suggesting that Pere be lynched if he got blocked again is understandable, even if it turns out it would have been wrong. Which is also another reason I think Rail is town. If he was considering pushing the Pere lynch, why would Pere be killed overnight?

[Mitillos]

@ooba: Suppose BB (actually, I was asking RC, but whatever) said that they didn't have daytalk. What would you have done? If you are saying that my question was unnecessary, then you were accepting Peace's claim, without checking it. This is either foolish or scummy.

[Mitillos]

@DV: From your words, it seems like you investigated me on N1 and Molla on N2. Can you explain why you picked us to investigate?

[Mitillos]

Qualifying exam in just over an hour.
Reread and hopefully reads some time after that. (Assuming I don't fail and am too depressed to give a shit.)

p-edit: @ooba: Would they have? Especially RC, who didn't talk much and presumably wasn't paying much attention. In any case, gut is meaningless to me. Your digestive organs don't do much thinking, except as regards the processing of food. Contradictions have nothing to do with "tells". If two people have contradictory stories, someone is lying. Town is expected to not lie, so someone is scum.

[Mitillos]

Vote: BB

In post 384, he says to SK that "their roles work together, so they should work together". SK had only claimed "negative utility". BB eventually claimed naive cop, neighbour with RC. This makes absolutely no sense. His jump on Luna, which simply came about (apparently) from the fact that DV said they'd be a better lynch doesn't sit well with me, either.

Now for my other reads:
Dante: Same as before. I was asked to elaborate on him before and I did. Since then, it's been more of the same. He's town.

DV: If he turns out to be an investigative role but on a faction that doesn't exist, then I hate N for reminding me of Discworld mafia and the whole seer modjoke fiasco in that game. I still don't like his push on Luna, but I definitely think he's town.

Kid A: Double-voter. I doubt he would be scum. I'd like him to finish reading and give some reads of his own, as well as proper justification for his vote. This was also something that bothered me with MUM; too many votes without explanations. Probably town.

kmd: Voted me on D2, sat on that vote, without explanation and then on D3 asked people what the case on me was. The weak scumhunting now just seems faked. This one is also scum. Willing to vote him, as well.

Luna: There's some Luna hate around, mainly because of the request for a public reveal of the possibility of a mod error. I do not see this as scummy. Consequently, my read hasn't changed. Town.

Majiffy: His predecessors were town. He is also town. So, town.

ooba: Playstyle differences aside, I'd say he's been one of the most sincere scumhunters this game. Still town.

Peace, Rail, RC and Shadow in a later post, as I'm feeling somewhat tired, at the moment.

[Mitillos]

Your naive result would somehow be fixed by a Miller? Not seeing this. Can you explain? What exactly would you do, what would SK do (if he were a Miller) and how would this make your investigations go from naive to sane?

[Mitillos]

Hmph. Naive means you don't see the scumminess in anyone. There's no reason to think that your role would work that way with a miller. But, alright, if that is what you say you thought, I will think about it some more.

Unvote

Vote:kmd

Also scum. Needs rope.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: I like conciseness. Also, if I'm town-reading someone, I don't have too much interest in explaining. And for my scum reads, I gave specific reasons. Contradictory behaviour.

[Mitillos]

@DV: Isn't Nacho the one who never uses capitalisation? I was thinking that it was, in fact, Andrius that was asking for the mod to publicly say if there was a mod error or not.
That aside, I can't see that whole thing as anything other than a null-tell. Do you have anything other than the modpush? Because "not looking town" isn't really an explanation of why you are scumreading him.

[Mitillos]

@Majiffy: What do you think of Molla's response to my accusation? (Posts 1362-1367).

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Check my games, especially the later ones. I don't bother with quoting too often, irrespective of alignment. Your case on me is crap, and here is why:

You claim that I am scum, because Dia/Maj haven't been responding to your questions about me: These are not my actions; I can also accuse you of being scum because kmd has hardly said anything to you at all. But I trust you can see how stupid such a claim is.
You reposted ooba's case against me, the one broken down to three parts: That's the one I responded to, earlier. Bringing up the same case again is pointless.
You say that my responses do not feel natural: Of course they are not. I sit down and type them out, read them back, proofread a little and so on. Again, as either alignment. I was accused of pretty much the same thing in Micro 66, by TraceyLyn. (Something about my posts feeling robotic, or calculated.)

To summarise: My posting style, previous points that have been refuted and other peoples' actions do not constitute a good case.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: So, you're saying that you don't look town (since your true towniness is not shining through at this time), but in fact you are town, whilst at the same time voting me for not looking town? You see the problem with this is that you are not really justifying your read. You're just saying "you're scum, because I made an ad hoc decision that it is so and I want to stick with it". Which is also what Shadowy is doing. This is nothing more than tunneling, disguised as legitimate hunting. It hurts the town, so you need to stop doing it. Ooba tried to at least put some justification to his vote on me, although it turned out that his justification was incorrect, as I pointed out. RC's justification is just as weak (he hasn't "felt any strong pushes from [me]"); if this is scummy, half the players in this game should be scum, then. And BB is just being opportunistic, not even bothering to say anything about his votes.

[Mitillos]

Well, the writing is on the wall. I'm a Nymphomaniac Nurse. I can send in a target each night and if there is no Doctor, it becomes a protection from NKs. However, I compulsively get redirected to anything that attracts me. I suspect this means that if someone has "naked" or something similar in their role, I automatically target them. Maybe even "naughty", which means my role is also one which would have benefited from neromollie's power.

On the first night, I targeted Luna. On the second, I just sent in my own name, since I figured it probably made no real difference what I did. The mod didn't tell me this was not an unacceptable action, so make of that what you will.

[Mitillos]

@BB: "Non-com"? How does that mean cop?

@RC: Are you also a non-com? How about the rest of your role name?

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Not sure I follow. How exactly does your role make mine not exist? Also, your N2 thing confuses me. You said you were blocked, but if you were nice you wouldn't be? So, are you claiming naughty?

My N3 target was myself, again. I'll keep targeting myself until I am no longer allowed to do so, since that will tell me that things have changed in some way.

Deas died. Someone was worried that they'd get investigated. There has been only one kill each night. I assume there is only one scum faction. Any such faction cannot contain me or Molla; we were both already investigated by Deas and found to not be X, so if we were scum, the others would know that they were in no danger from his investigation.

[Mitillos]

@RC: We didn't know what Deas investigated for, though. We learned it after his flip. Which is why

@SP: Yes, it may have been a red herring. But, why bother with it, when there's other roles to take care of, first? And yeah, I did misunderstand your claim about the message you got. Do you know who sent it? (As in, did it have their name?). Also, I mentioned the Discworld game hater, in relation to Deas being a seer without werewolves. N, Nacho and Molla were also in that game, so they will recall it. There were 3 seers, without werewolves. I was one of them. We spent most of the game tunneling each other. I don't think that my being a named townie is much of a stretch, although I am a little annoyed that I'm not as useful as I thought I was. Which wasn't much, but still...
Why did you not protect anyone on N3? Did you forget, were you unable to, or did you just decide not to?

@ooba: Did you claim, yet?

Luna, Varsoon and Rail also need to make their claims.

[Mitillos]

@ooba: I only asked because in your list of claims that needed to happen you left yourself out. Can you tell us what the phrase is, without bolding it?

[Mitillos]

O_o

OK, so who's left? Luna and Rail?

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: So you were told who was attempting to block you, or are you saying it was Luna, due to PoE?

[Mitillos]

In other words, a redirected backup doctor. Yeah, guess I'm just a named townie, like Majiffy said. As for being too vague, I can see the reasoning behind it. Suppose it hadn't been and it said "you'll automatically go to naughty people". Then, I'd tell the thread. If there was a tracker and another doctor, the doctor could protect me and the tracker could track me. Until the mafia could figure out either the tracker or the doctor, they'd be stuck getting found out.

And I'm guessing that Luna's is a disabled vig. That normaliser would work well there, too. Also, we know that being visited doesn't make their sleep go away.

@ooba: How is it bad design? There would be no way for the normaliser to know who would be a good target. Unless that person came out and said "my role is shitty but only one step away from being good". And even then it wouldn't be enough. Because we wouldn't know if that person was telling the truth or not. I think the normaliser had two shots, just so at least one would have a good chance of having a positive effect for the town.

[Mitillos]

@Rail: I hadn't specified being a backup doctor, at the time. I thought it was implied, since I was a nurse. As for not knowing if my role works. I thought that maybe if there wasn't a doctor to begin with, maybe I'd automatically be one. If I have the capability to send in an action, I might as well, on the off-chance it does something. I don't know, this setup is too weird.

Edit: Is mafiascum intermittently not loading for anyone else?

[Mitillos]

Like I said, I thought it was implied. Evidently, I was wrong.
I was thinking maybe a Neurosurgeon... Or something.

[Mitillos]

I'm also redirectable. That's the part that I'd expect to be normalised. That I wouldn't compulsively target someone else.

[Mitillos]

I'm not sure why people are getting stressed about Varsoon. There are 11 of us. With his power, this means 12 votes. A lynch requires 7 votes. Instead he needs 6. Now, suppose he wasn't a hated double voter. 11 total votes, everyone would need 6 to be voted. His effect is a positive one. It makes everyone else harder to get voted out, making it less likely that mafia can band enough of the town together for a mislynch, since they need one more town for that, than normal.
The only case in which Varsoon becomes a bit of a liability is when there is an even number of us left. If there are 10 of us, everyone will need 6 votes to get lynched, except Varsoon will need 5. Which still doesn't allow mafia to just outright win by piling on him. It takes 50% of the players to lynch him, in that situation, but mafia can't be 50% of us, or they will have already won, anyway.

[Mitillos]

Varsoon's alignment is irrelevant. My post was the way it was because I think someone suggested that being hated would mean he'd be an easy scum-lynch during LyLo, causing us to lose. I wanted to show you why this is not the case. But even if he is scum himself, that shouldn't be enough to cause worry. Because the same issues come up:

If there's an odd number of players left (n), without a double-voter it takes (n + 1)/2 people to lynch someone. With a double-voter, since there are n + 1 total votes instead, it takes (n + 3)/2 votes to lynch, instead. Even if Varsoon is on the lynch wagon, it still takes a total of (n + 1)/2 people to lynch. Additionally, it takes (n + 1)/2 people to lynch Varsoon, unless he self-votes and it takes (n + 3)/2 people to lynch anyone else, if Varsoon doesn't vote that person. There is nothing in his power that makes it easier than normal to lynch anyone, when n is odd.

He only becomes a possible liability if the number of players left is even and he's scum. In that case, he takes the number of people needed for a wagon that he is participating in from (n + 2)/2 to n/2 (and the same is true of the number of people needed to lynch him). But even then, that's not enough to give mafia an easy victory. Because, if the mafia made up half the people in the game, they would have already won.

Furthermore, I don't think he is scum, unless the mafia team is particularly small, since town seems to have only crappy roles. But, if you think he is, just make sure we keep the number of players odd for the dayphases and then his power works for us, irrespective of his alignment. And even in the case where the number of players is even, just don't rush into a vote and mafia can't pile on someone and get a victory.

tl;dr Again, the analysis for Varsoon's power works the same way as in my previous post, even if he is scum. Odd number of players = good, even number of players = potentially bad, but probably not really.

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Actually, if it's 7-4 right now and we mislynch and someone is killed, then it will be 5-4. Assume Varsoon is still around. 9 people, 10 votes. 6 votes to lynch someone. That means Varsoon plus 4 more people, at least. 5 in total. More than the mafia number. So, tomorrow scum will not have won. If Varsoon is town, the town can still vote scum and not lose. If Varsoon is scum, the town can still vote Varsoon and go back to the regular LyLo we all know and love.

[Mitillos]

EBWOP: Sorry, forgot your second scenario, where we get to 4-2. Then there are 7 votes, it takes 4 to lynch someone. Town can still lynch scum. Even if Varsoon is scum, they can only muster 3 votes. Not enough for a scum victory.

edit: @Rail: Why would he have come up with a fakeclaim like that? And isn't the last part true always? When we lynch someone, we hope he's scum and if we don't, we hope he's town. Or, you know, we figured out the entire scumteam and are getting them one at a time.
I haven't seen any scummy behaviour from Varsoon. I was annoyed by MUM's and Kid A's insistence on voting without explanations, but that's about it. So, since I'm basically townreading him, I'm not too worried. Also, a scum double-voter in 13 vs 4, with town almost entirely made up of roles of negative, minimal or zero utility? Not really sure about that.

[Mitillos]

I looked at Rail's VCs.

@Peace: When you moved off me on D3, why did you switch to Luna? The deadline wasn't far off and there wasn't really anyone much interested in voting Luna. So, what exactly was the purpose of your vote?

[Mitillos]

I am a banana. That is a lie. Am I scum for saying it? No.
The thing about scum lying is that they do it when there is a tangible benefit to them. They don't just go "MUST LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING!".
What benefit would Varsoon gain from claiming hated? People would be a bit more careful about voting him? Sure, but that's not really much of a benefit. People wouldn't vote him because of it? I don't think so. If he's being scumread, people will vote him.
The thing is, people have been attacking him for his role, instead of his alignment. That's the part I don't like and why I'm arguing all this. If you have any reason to believe that he is scum, point out his scummy behaviour. Make an argument about that.
The same is true about Peace. If you think he's scum, show us how this is the case and vote for him. Don't do it just because of the daytalk thing.

[Mitillos]

@Rail: OK, I see your point. But then, our Necromancer didn't have negative utility (I doubt there are werewolves, making him zero utility at worst). Neromollie was very much positive utility, too. So, I'm not even sure that scum would actually need to claim negative utility. But, that's beside the point. The nullness of the slot is much more important.
As for who is scum... I don't know. I guess the scummiest are:
1) At least one of BB/RC. RC's unjustified push on BB pretty much since he replaced in is very anti-town. On the other hand, BB's interactions with some players (e.g. SK) have been rather iffy. I don't think both of them are scum, though.
2) I'm starting to come around on PeaceBringer. I didn't like his response in the post above. In general, his voting behaviour seems like he's playing it safe the whole time.
@Peace: The Luna wagon was very much not viable given the deadline. It looks like you knew that, since people would get off me, because of my claim, they'd be likely to go for the second largest wagon and wanted to keep away from it.
3 & 4) I have no idea. Most of my reads have all been moving increasingly towards the null area. Towny people have been acting slightly scummy and vice-versa. I need to ISO the Varsoon and Luna slots again, for now.

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: Umm... I'm reading that game and RC is nothing like that in this game. He's giving reads and reasoning. Here, he just went "BB is scum, vote him or me, I won't make any deals." and didn't bother explaining this stance, at any point.

[Mitillos]

@RC: Your behaviour in a single newbie game doesn't absolutely mean you're scum in this. I'd rather get some actual scum, before considering you and BB, since I'm fairly certain at least one of you is town.

@Shadow: I don't have three names. If there had been a scum flip, I might.
Also, I was wondering, why were you not certain if the N2 thing was town or not? I believe you said that its wording was along the lines of "if you are naughty we can't be friends but if you are nice you get to potentially block the kill". But that seems pretty clearly town to me. It reads like a roleblock that only works on scum, but allows town to go through just fine. Also, you never answered my question: Do you know who did this to you?

[Mitillos]

@Rail: Because I don't know for certain there's scum in that pair. Strictly speaking, I don't know there is town is there, either. It's possible both are scum. It's possible both are town. I suspect that one of them is scum, but this is partly because of the fact we have yet to find anyone. Also, the reasons I laid out when I said I consider them somewhat scummy.

@Shadow: No one claimed it, but your own claim came somewhat early, so it was still possible someone would.

Having reread a bit, I think... that I partially agree with Shadow's choices for scum. Specifically, Peace and Dante. I'm starting to think Luna may be third. Finally, one of RC/BB, not yet sure which.

I don't think Majiffy's claim is a lie. It would be too risky. What if, say, Luna claimed cop who investigated Majiffy at some point? Then, they'd know that, since their result didn't come a day later, Majiffy is lying.

I doubt there are 5 scum, so that may well be the entire team. I need to read some more. Tentatively, think of my vote as being on Peace. It probably will be there, at some point tomorrow. (Watch him turn out to be the origin of the block/message.)

[Mitillos]

Promiscuous?

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: Somewhat difficult to hammer him, since he only has three votes on him right now.

@Shadow: I wasn't going after him, until Rail asked us to look at the VCs. So, I started asking about stuff that I found suspicious, after looking at them. Isn't that what you do, as well?

@Peace: You hoped people would follow on the Luna wagon, but made no actual effort to convince them to do so? Because, what I see in your ISO is two consecutive posts with just a vote in them each. First on me and then on Luna. Nothing about why he's scum, just votes. Even on the first few posts of the following day. Eventually you say that it's because Nacho as town isn't like this. So, incomplete meta. (You never discussed if he does this as scum. I think he's equally active as scum and as town, but not active in this game, which means your reasoning is wrong, at the very least). Town doesn't do this. If you are so certain he's scum, you should be 1) trying to find more and better evidence to support this and 2) attempting to convince town, instead of just letting the deadline come.

Vote: Peace

[Mitillos]

@Dante: Process of elimination.

@Shadow: This is a 17 player game. There are 11 people alive. If it was 12 vs 5, it's now 6 vs 5.

@RC: So, are you saying that Luna and Shadow are scum?

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Incidentally, I'm sure you figured this out already, but you must not protect anyone tonight. Otherwise, mafia can shoot you tonight, gettng two people in one go. And I doubt they'll pass up an opportunity like that.

[Mitillos]

@BB: You said before that you believed that SK was soft-claiming miller. When did you decide that he wasn't?

[Mitillos]

It's actually not. And I only need a rough ballpark response.

[Mitillos]

SK himself? I can't see that anywhere in his ISO. Was it one of his subsequent slot-holders? Was it on the first or second day?

[Mitillos]

@Titus: Also, note that you are voting yourself, so you may want to unvote. Unless you're scum. Then feel free to stick with it.

[Mitillos]

@BB: OK, so, why did you investigate RC on N1, instead of SK, if you thought that your role worked in the way you stated and since you believed he was likely to be miller?

[Mitillos]

Except that Dia had not read his own role PM yet, as he says in this post (check N's posts, he says something along those lines some time later, too). But, I can accept that you had changed your mind about him with that.
Anyway, you can't begrudge me asking you; it looked suspicious. I wanted to make sure there wasn't a contradiction, somewhere.
So, out of curiosity, why did you pick RC to investigate? (This one actually is filler, but then, we're waiting for at least one player to finish catching up.)

[Mitillos]

@Titus: I ask things once I think of them. The fact that you're catching up just means I'm alright with asking pointless questions, too. Incidentally, can you tell us anything interesting/important that was said in your QT? RC wasn't very responsive to questions.

@BB: Eh, as good a target as any, I suppose. Given your knowledge of your lack of sanity.

[Mitillos]

@Titus: Question in post 1836.

[Mitillos]

You're not changing that by saying that, though.
(I know, glass houses and so on.)

So, what do you think makes you wake up at night? Is there any indication of that in your role PM?

[Mitillos]

@Luna: Would Varsoon and Dante be cross-voting like that as scum, at this point?
Also, you said that Varsoon seems sort of okay, right before saying he's in your scumpile. Any reason for that apparent contradiction?
You only really commented heavily on Dante, from that list. Are ooba and I in there because of PoE? If yes, where are your RC/Titus, Majiffy and Shadow reads?

[Mitillos]

Being dismissive won't make them go away.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: No, you did not. Answer my questions.

@Majiffy: Yes, you are. Which means that you're really good at being a computer, since you figured it out. As for cases, I made mine on Peace, when I voted him and in the posts before that. Ultimately, he is scum, because his behaviour is not that of someone who is trying to get scum lynched, but rather of one trying to avoid as much negative attention as possible. Also, as Rail pointed out, his voting patterns have been suspicious.
As for Dante, basically look at Luna's 1881. The argument is that he's done jack shit.

[Mitillos]

Actually, that's pretty fucking brilliant. If Shadow is right about Majiffy and Majiffy is lying, mafia can't kill Shadow, because then they'll also kill their own guy. And if Majiffy is telling the truth, they still can't use Shadow's ability against the town, by killing two people in one go, since Majiffy's role will mean that Shadow's role will get delayed.

[Mitillos]

By the way, I think Shadow's vote was actually L-1. Peacebringer voted Dante as well, so that's 6 votes on him, so far.

[Mitillos]

@Molla: Does the wagon blow because it's on one of your townreads, or because of the people on it? And if it blew, why did you get on it, especially without any sort of reasoning or justification? Or did it perhaps blow because Varsoon left it, taking it from L-1 to L-3? Also, why do you need to sheep others? I thought you had some scumreads of your own. What happened to them?

[Mitillos]

@Rail: I think I might show up on that wagon, for a light refreshment at the very least. Unless, you know, Luna showed up and answered some questions and explained the scumreads, instead of just ignoring and lurking. That could also work.

[Mitillos]

I didn't mean they'd be afraid to bus. I meant that, if they were scum together, being so close to victory (assuming a team of 4), at least one of them may concentrate on someone else, instead. For instance, the way Varsoon moved to ooba, for somewhat crappy reasons. Fair enough on other people looking townier; I can wait for the remaining catch-up posts, assuming they come fairly soon.

[Mitillos]

@Dante: You keep saying that Varsoon is scum, but you never really explained why. From your ISO, all I can see is "Tunneling with two votes." and "Double-voter as negative to the town. Fits.". The only other mention you made of him was how you didn't like one of his comments and one of mine, before voting me.
No mention of the previous holders of that slot, as far as I can see.
Do you have any reason as to why Varsoon is scum, which isn't null? Tunneling and his role are both null.

@Titus: So, did you finish catching up? Any reads, thus far? Any explanations as to why your predecessor was so convinced that Molla was scum, without giving any reasoning?

@Majiffy: There's a truckload of non-presences in this game. Got any other reasons for ooba-scum? Because I think he's town.

[Mitillos]

@ooba: I already said why I think Majiffy is town.

@Majiffy: OMGUS is a bit of a null-tell. And he did explain his vote, after the fact.

@Titus: If it irks you, why did you join the Dante wagon? I mean, it formed quite quickly, twice.

[Mitillos]

@Majiffy: Ah, crap, I didn't hold on to my trousers and now I'm half-naked. Also, I checked again. His explanation wasn't after the fact, but never mind. And yeah, it was a bad vote with a bad reason, but town does those. You know, like you did, when you voted ooba.
Also, see Luna's post 1952.

p-edit: @ooba: I think so, yeah. Luna seems scummier than both Dante and Majiffy, at the very least.

Unvote

Vote: Luna

@Majiffy, Dante: You should probably join us. Unless you are convinced Luna is town and ooba is not. In which case, why? Also, Dante, still waiting your answer to my previous question.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: Because you ignored questions and gave little to no explanation for many of your reads and votes. And this is not new, it's been going on since day 1. The catch-up posts were something, but definitely nowhere near enough. In addition to this, you were quiet far too often and for far too long. Even though your other head had to leave, it still doesn't justify the long and repeated periods of inactivity. And I know you claimed laziness in this game, but I don't see that. When you actually are here, you make catch-up posts and engage one or two people in extended conversation.
As you said to me before, you just don't look town.
Plus, if we look at the role claims, that's at least 6 people who would have had significant benefit from being normalised by neromollie. With only 2 shots, that seems like too many, so someone must have been lying. Your role is the one that, to me, seems the most questionable.
On that note, I'm fairly certain that not all scum would claim some kind of PR. Of our two claimed VT's, I think Rail is the townier. Along with this, we have all the scummy stuff Dante did, that others have pointed out. I'm not saying Dante is town. He is probably also scum, just not quite as scummy-looking as you, at the moment.
A couple of others stated intent to hammer Dante (a little prematurely, since he was at L-2 at that time), but if they don't, I will. I'd like him to answer my question first, though. Or rather, Shadow's question that I repeated.

[Mitillos]

@Molla: Why the question? We already knew Varsoon is a double voter. 9 people means 10 votes, majority is more than 5, so at least 6.

Continuing from yesterday:

Vote: Luna

[Mitillos]

... We went through all this on D4. He adds an extra vote. Instead of 9 votes, there are 10. A majority on 10 votes is 6 or more. The number of people is irrelevant to calculating a majority. This is how most voting systems work, when someone has more votes than someone else (e.g the EU council, before the Treaty of Nice in 2003).
Also, it doesn't make the double voter pointless. It means that any wagon that he's not related with, requires one more person on it, than normal. Whereas the wagons he is on or that are on him need the same number of people as they otherwise would.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: Why should I have changed my mind about you? Do you never bus? Anyway, I said that I thought Dante was scum, but you looked scummier. The only part of his flip that surprised me was that he was the nagger/roleblocker. I kind of expected that to be your role.
My mind isn't changed at all: I think the scumteam is Luna/Peace/{probably one of BB/Titus}

[Mitillos]

Note how and when Molla and Peace jumped on me. Peace's post in particular reeks of scumminess. Also note how BB is laying the groundwork for the next (and probably final) mislynch after mine, by asking why Shadow is still alive. Scumteam finally found; help me lynch them, or remember this after I'm gone and do it yourselves.

Also, before I forget to mention this, yet again: it turned out my role really is useless. My target last night was RT.
I'd like to hear other people's actions too,

starting with Luna

.

[Mitillos]

What was your question in aid of, then? People change their reads, as things happen. Your question seems like something you'd also repeat tomorrow, to try and push for a lynch (claimed protective role, still alive, starting to have my doubts about alignment, and so on). And since it might look suspicious if you kept calling them town and then switched to calling them scum, you're saying it today as well, almost in passing, so you can point to it tomorrow and say "well, I had my suspicions since yesterday".

[Mitillos]

"Clearly" how?
As for the second line, a protective role expecting to be killed after claiming is perfectly valid. Someone else, asking why that protective role isn't dead yet, particularly in the way you did, is not.
You already spoke earlier today, when you were repeating the question about the vote count, that had been asked on D1 (so you were paying attention to the mod's post), but failed to say anything about Shadow being alive, until he had pointed it out himself.

[Mitillos]

@Shadow: Or because mafia was worried that you might be lying about protecting Majiffy, making it possible that they might accidentally kill one of their own. Or even, because they believed both you and Majiffy and decided that it might be best to leave you alive as mislynch fodder, since they wouldn't get an extra kill from your power.
What I don't get is why Luna wasn't killed, if he's so town. He's supposed to be a vig, with a nebulous activation trigger, that he doesn't know. Supposing the trigger is a visit from someone else, then it's a big risk for the mafia to leave him alive, when we have two otherwise useless investigative roles.
The difference here is that a babysitter can at most protect against one of their kills, as long as mafia doesn't kill him. Whereas a vig can kill their own members and really screw them over, by heavily reducing the advantage they've gained with all these mislynches.

[Mitillos]

@Luna: You weren't a compromise against Dante. If you look carefully, ooba wanted me to vote Majiffy, then you. I agreed to voting you, because I think Majiffy is town and I think you are not. I also said Dante was scum; how can your wagon be a compromise to another one, if I consider both of them valid? Anyway, I already said why you're scum. Lurking is only a small part of it.
Also, why would ooba being scum mean Shadow would be still alive?
Your target doesn't really matter, as such. But, I didn't want others to go before you and say that they targeted you, before you had made your claim. This ties to your last response; actually it's not confirmed that it isn't the case. The only one who claimed to have targeted you at night, so far, was me for N1. But given my role, I doubt I ever actually visited you. So, as far as I can tell, no one visited you on any night up to the last. If you are telling the truth, I would expect that the trigger for your role would be a visit from someone else.

[Mitillos]

What changed was that most of my previous scumreads had been shown to be wrong (e.g. mnem), so I did a re-read. And, obviously, there were other cases against Dante, which also helped convinced me.
But I think the biggest thing was the whole "vote Varsoon" without explanation thing, which Shadow asked about, something like a half-dozen times and never got a response. That was pretty anti-town.

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: The hell kind of tell is that? Didn't we already have someone go with word usage as a scumtell and be wrong? I agree with you on Peacebeinger, though. He's clearly scum. Get off Shadow, he's obv-town.

Unvote

Vote: Peace

And yes, Shadow. I did sheep you. I already said, "there were other cases against Dante, which also helped convinced me." But that wasn't the only reason I thought Dante was scum, as I said above.

[Mitillos]

I am. I want you lynched, because I think you are scum. I am also pragmatic; there's obviously not enough support for your lynch, so, I'm moving to my next biggest scumread. I intended to include something along those lines in the post you quoted, but, unaccountably, I forgot.

[Mitillos]

@ooba: Because then I'd also be claiming compulsive framer.

@Luna: I was so sad at not being recruited.

[Mitillos]

Incidentally, these were my traitor crumb posts: 718, 1217, 1256, 1261.

[Mitillos]

Oh man, good thing no-one ISO'd ooba. In posts 1648-1649 his unvote makes it clear he was very aware of the "new line" rule.