A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Magua]

Hai guiz.



---

So if someone can tell me why Benmage says he's mod confirmed town, that'd be great.

[Magua]

It occurs to me (not the first time) that you might not understand what the "mod" in "modconfirmed" means.

[Magua]

Did you track Garruk?

Has Garruk claimed?

[Magua]

Magua,

try not to let your personal feelings drag this game down any further.

Given that I'm always the one defending you as town-who-is-actually-

stupid

arrogant-enough-to-try-that-as-town and you're always the one scumreading me and saying "lollynchMagzgameiseasy" despite never having even seen a scumgame of mine, I would say that I'm off to a great start not letting my personal feelings drag this game down.

If you could go and answer the actual game-relevant questions I just asked, though, that'd be great.

------

PEdit: Is your motivator/fruit vendor the same thing (the target knows they're motivated), or are they two different actions and you chose to motivate? Did Tierce confirm the motivation (assuming so)? Who did you kill N3?

[Magua]

Your opinions are bizarrely fully formed considering you just entered?

I am describing every single game I've ever been in in with Benmage to date. I have plenty of time to form this opinion.

By the way, how do you feel about your predecessor's claim of one-shot double watcher, modified tree stump?

My predecessor should consider cutting back on the mushrooms.

[Magua]

So, Benmage, which route are we going to take today?

1) "I'm a ninja tracker, and don't show up on tracker reports!"

-or-

2) "Lol guys Garruk is obv scum I was just trying to generate discussion!"

[Magua]

@Garruk:

Theories as to why that was the only kill N4 then?

@Benmage:

If it's all the same to you, I'd vastly prefer Cephrir confirm this because that's not my reading of 5474. PEdit: Oh, nevermind.

Kind of disappointed that Cephrir didn't claim he tracked Benmage last Night and try to push on him, though.

[Magua]

Kindly explain how "refusal to post song lyrics" => "town"

Unrelatedly, assuming your list there is a scumlist, I note you have neither Benmage nor Garruk on it.

[Magua]

Magua, for personal desire. Can you claim what Faraday shared with you inregards to your predecessor. If it helps, I've been reading your slot town for a while.

See no benefit in doing this at this time.

Also: may vote Garruk. Not voting him now. I want way more people to tell me what I should be doing first.

[Magua]

I'm not actually a watcher/treestump, Benmage.

Also, I'm at work, so whatevs.

Also also also, what ooba safeclaim?

Also also also also also, I don't want this Day to end until I get to talk to Tierce.

[Magua]

You're going to have a bad time.

SafetyDance, if ooba is scum, how come you seem so nonchalant about voting along with him?

[Magua]

Was AGar a claimed PR? ie, for your theory to be valid Mafia would need to know who to kill after rushing the day.

If this was a concern, did it not come up D7?

[Magua]

VLA should end today. I just saw this and wondered why isn't Garruk dead?

If he is a hated at L-2, then he should be dead. Mod did you make a mistake?

I've literally only read the OP and the last three pages, and even I know the answer (you're going to get) to this question.

Shadoweh, if you think both Benmage and Garruk are town, how come you don't seem to care about getting Benmage to untunnel Garruk, or Garruk to untunnel Benmage? Both are screaming bloody 1v1 murder at eachother.

Tierce, who's scum?

[Magua]

What answer should I be getting?

Read the three goddamn pages.

@Tierce:

That sounds suspiciously like work. So you don't believe Benmage. That's fine. Do you think Garruk is town? Why is Cephrir scum?

[Magua]

Don't hammer. There's four days left and I want to

annoy Tierce

mock Benmage

get ducks in a row.

Would especially like

Nacho

Nautilus input, because what I've seen from him is just useless one liners so far.

PSA: Benmage's hammer theory is wrong if Garruk flips scum, or at least we need to add the caveat that the wagon has to not be on scum (otherwise they would self hammer)

Although I think "scum get a reward for hammering" as a theory is mostly la-la land, statements like this make me feel you're not thinking things through before saying them.

[Magua]

So.

I hate Alchemist.

I hate Benmage.

I gather that I'm going to hate ooba.

Sadly, any (or even more sadly, all?) of them could be town, because I quite simply believe that Benmage is this fucking awful, and I am very close to believing it for Alchemist. ooba would be a surprise, but it's near Christmas, so woo-motherfucking-surprises ahoy.

---

SafetyDance is the only one who's posts I'm even coming close to liking.

---

@Alfred:

Kindly explain your thought process for me, as I cannot find it. You're both good players. You know Benmage is a shit player with an inflated superego and a penchant for stupid shit. Even if you weren't aware of it, personally, which I honestly find to be doubtful, it was said by enough people yesterday (myself, Tierce) that I would highly suspect Llamarble, at least, of going, "Hmmmmmmmmmmmm," but nope, what I see is "Hey, guys, I'm going to get Garruk close to being hammered, oh, he's not hated anymore?, I'll continue to get him close to being hammered, mind you, I don't trust Benmage, oh shit, Garruk was town? That wily Benmage led us all astray!"

And I don't believe that, coming from either of your heads.

@ooba:

Kindly explain how Benmage's stupid-ass-holy-shit-I-hope-he's-scum-because-I-don't-want-to-believe-people-are-this-stupid fake guilty has scum motivation on it, whereas your stupid-ass-holy-shit-I-hope-he's-scum-because-I-don't-want-to-believe-people-are-this-stupid does not?

Super serious question, because if your argument is "lol Benmage-scum saw me doing something super shitty and stupid that should've been stamped out in Road to Rome, and get away with it, and then did it himself," then we need to have some words.

@Benmage:

Do you ever plan on not being a complete douchecanoe? Srs question. It's like you're a living trust-tell-in-reverse-who-sabotages-games-as-town-to-get-off-easy-as-scum, and you're proud of it, so kindly explain what the hell your thought process[1] was, kthx.

---

Massclaim is dumb. Near as I gather, all town claims so far have been met with, "Lol stupid fakeclaim die scum oh shit they were town," then repeat, helped by ooba and Benmage. Given the no role flip, limited shot setup, I have zero conviction that we'd be trapping any scum in a lie and so it'd just let them know more of the setup with no gain for us.

[1] Loosely interpreted.

[Magua]

@Benmage:

Going to say this as nicely as I fucking can: stop being a twat with your self vote.

@ooba:

Was serious asking about why we should treat Benmage's fake-guilty different from yours. Want this thought process.

Also, if this is two scumteams, what is your theory as to why there's been no Night with two kills? If you think there's an odd-Night/even-Night split, do you think the two win together or not? If they do win together, how is this theory *any* different from just one scumteam? If not, how exactly do you think that shit is going to be balanced?

[Magua]

Good lord. One team kills on odd nights, one on even nights - some amount of crosskill protection\rbing involved.

1) Have you ever seen a game with this setup where the teams did not win together?

2) How do you imagine this works if one team is eliminated?

3) Answer my question about why Benmage's guilty is different than yours.

[Magua]

Magua, did you get your permablock back?

To be quite honest, I see no reason to answer this question for the same reason that I see no benefit in a mass claim.

[Magua]

Alchemist claimed scum. There's no way we're not lynching him today unless someone else wants to claim scum.

But don't fucking put him at L-1 because I want to read Nautilus' magnum opus because Lord knows I do not feel Alfred can be town *at all*.

[Magua]

Considering I've wanted to be dead since, like, Day 5, how is me wanting to be dead now claiming scum?

Oh, shit, my bad Syryana. I had thought you were a competent player. You don't want to fucking play, get the fuck out, Jesus Christ. If you're town,

man

shut the fuck up with the whining and goddamn play. If you're town, just save us all the

aggravation

noise and be quiet.

"Waaaaaaaaaaaah, people want to lynch me, I'll take my ball and go home" is just bullshit.

---

Anyways.

@ooba:

The problem I have with your read on Benmage is that your only complaint about Benmage's fake guilty is that he did it after you, full stop.

Your argument is essentially, "I did a terribly stupid thing, and then when I didn't get instalynched for it, Benmage did the same terribly stupid thing I did, and that's scummy."

I find several things missing from your thought process here:

1) Any indication that you're aware that Benmage has way more of a history of doing this terribly stupid thing than you do,

2) Any indication yesterday that Benmage might've been lying, given that you lied in the exact same circumstance the Day before, even when it was brought up by other people,

3) Any indication that you're aware that what you did was bad, and any attempt to explain why, really, anyone should listen to you at all.

I read your posts and the feeling I get is duplicitous. They don't feel like they have thought behind them, and they don't feel like someone who is actually trying to think things through. They feel like you're pushing a lynch-all-liars case right after you lied, and that feels off.

---

@Nautilus:

Pardon me for abbreviating your "Alfred is town" case, but it seems to boil down to these two points:
1. "Man, they played a good D1-D3"
2. "Tammy thought they/Empire was town (and then Tammy got shot)"

I don't find this compelling.

For point 1, I just feel it's a weak point. Both Empire and Llamarble are perfectly capable of playing a strong town game as scum (eg, Llamarble+mith in 2012 Team Mafia). For point 2, it just seems to devolve to WIFOM: the obvious counterargument is "Llamarble/Empire-town still alive D9", but that's really just as much bullshit, isn't it? The kills don't make a super amount of sense regardless of how you look at them, so I'm not going too far into the deep end of NK analysis at this point.

What bothers me is (of course) their play after I've entered the game, to whit, not much, and almost zero effort. No comprehension of Benmage lying D8, coupled with "That dastardly Benmage" post starting D9 just reads as so incredibly fake. "TA or MC are not bad lynch choices and one or both of them ought to flip scum" is so wishywashy; it's like not even trying. Raises the hairs on the back of my neck when that gets combined with someone naming as suspects solely weak/consensus players as their scumlist, which is what they're doing.

---

Am I misremembering, or is there some Night action reason to indicate Titus-town? I could've sworn there was something like that but now I see Nautilus floating Titus-scum and so am doubtful.

---

Also also Nautilus, if you could quote stripe less, or spoiler them at the very least, that'd be great, because wheeee, I'm not reading that shit at all.

[Magua]

Show me one good Day 1 scumgame that Empire has played on this site. One.

Fuck it's hard to track Empire's games with all the bloody hydras.

But really, it doesn't even matter, because I'm not giving

any

much weight to D1-D3, and am giving a lot of weight to D8-D9. I did

skim

read the D1-D2 ISO and I just don't find it super-obv-town like you do, and coupled with me finding recent behavior super-obv-scummy, well.

Blah blah meta blah, my takeaway is Empire is capable of playing an /excellent/ scumgame on EM. Saying he's incapable of playing one on forum mafia is...wrong? He had some stumbling blocks transferring here in his early town games, but overcame those.

Blah blah Tammy/Tierce-called-him-town blah:

Who has two thumbs and doesn't care about dead townies? This guy!

Nah, I just don't care. Super srs here.

Blah blah burden of proficiency blah: I will totally fucking call Llamarble out with a BOP argument. I would totally fucking call you out on it, too, but, hooray, you're posting. I would totally fucking call ooba out on it, but lol he's already fucked that up so.

---

Alchemist dies today, flips scum. If you (that is, Nautilus) die tonight and

I'll add you to the list of dead townies whose opinions I will ignore in favor of my own

maybe listen to what you say. If I die all I ask is the same

slavish obedience

weight given to my read as Tierce's and Tammy's.

[Magua]

Magua, while I understand your wanting to stick to your own opinions, the fact Tammy/Tierce died instead of you suggests that your reads were further off. Scum, if all choices are equal, kill the player whose reads are closest to accurate.

Now, not to be

too

egotistical, I would say it might

possibly

be because my input for Day 8 was "Hai guiz, nice game you got here, Benmage is a maroon and no one should listen to him, please don't hammer while I t--" hammer.

Which is, coincidentally enough, the same reason that I'm not voting for Alchemist now, to wit: I want more

scumclaims

content. Especially from Alfred, who thinks I'm town while I think they're scum. We're not up against a deadline, so not seeing the win in hurrying.

I think y'all are being stupid by not looking at the fakeclaimers. Alchemist is probably just playing this game like an idiot.

Entirely possible. But our perspectives seem different. Your perspective seems to be, "No townie would be braindead enough to pull a fake guilty after another fake guilty, therefore Benmage has to be scum," whereas my perspective is "Not again "

We can get into the larger meta discussion about how terrible Benmage is and how terrible what he does to the game is, and I would agree with you, but that doesn't change things for *this game* *right now*. And right here right now, I don't think he's scum. It's not a modconfirmed 100% feeling, but at least a good 75%. So compared to Alchemist, who I *do* think is scum, it's pretty obvious which one I want.

[Magua]

Magua can blow me, inc megapost

You don't have anywhere near enough money.

Think Titus is town.

Bedtime now.

[Magua]

Prod dodge. Posting after Christmas

shopping

procrastination.

[Magua]

Alright.

From strongest townread to strongest scumread:

Think Titus is town. My strongest townread. I don't agree with

anything

most of the things he says, but I read him as incredibly sincere and giving-a-shit and these are important things to me.

Think Benmage is town. Would still vig him if I had the opportunity.

Think ooba is town...ish; this is less sure than the Benmage read. I admit I have my niggling doubts.

Nautilus is...well. I want them to be town. So many posts, and more importantly, so much effort in actually pushing shit and getting shit moving. But, not a surefirething. More of, if they are scum, I still wouldn't want to lynch them today because they're the biggest content providers in this game, more or less. And I'm happy to let that live. A lot of my hesitation in regards to Nautilus comes from his defense of Alfred.

---

Shadoweh has the neighor/vig shot thing going on with Garruk, but otherwise her play for the last two days has been entirely absent/coasting.

Liked SafetyDance's posts at the start of D9, but on reread they're less content-filled than I would like. I enjoy people who, after I have finished reading their posts, do not make me want to slap them, so he's got that going for him, but ehhhh...just seems lacking.

Cephrir is similar, in that he's posted a whole bunch, but nothing stands out in my head about him or what he thinks or why he thinks. All very null.

---

Messiah Complex: Weakest of my scumreads, mostly PoE.

The Alchemist: Meh, if your defense is "Yeah, I suck and lurk a lot," it's not really going to make me think any townier of you. A certain je ne sais quoi about the inevitability of his lynch is nice and registers as town, but not really enough to change my mind about anything. Big ol megapost boils down to "Nautilus says I'm scum, but I'm not scum, I just suck" which is so very meh.

Alfred Borden: Number one scumread, with a bullet. Really the one that I want to lynch today.

VOTE: Alfred Borden

[Magua]

UNVOTE: Alfred Borden

[Magua]

Flash wagon makes me nervous.

[Magua]

@Alchemist:

You've really got zero said about Alfred. None of what you've said so far has been about Alfred; the only people you've given a read on today has been Nautilus.

Kindly enlighten me with your thought process that led from "Thank God I'm going to be lynched" to "1v1 time with Nautilus!" to "Alright, I'll vote Borden"

PEdit: wtf is dragon rider?

[Magua]

Oh, yes, Benmage, because the fucking quicklynches have worked out so fucking wonderfully so far.

[Magua]

@Alfred:

Kindly redo your claim fully at some point. Preferably tonight. I can make assumptions about things like "Ate Amrun's corpse" but I'd vastly prefer if I didn't have to. Your powers, how they work (eg, why do you have another Neighborize shot tonight?), how you used them, etc.

Also, I'm going to assume this is Llamarble doing this, unless told otherwise.

@Benmage:

Town or scum, complaining about "people withholding secret information" while you fake guiltied Garruk means you're a fucking hypocrite. And, truth be told, given the level of reads you've shown so far this game, you pushing a wagon is quickly becoming a good reason to

not

lynch Alfred.

[Magua]

Ill be here saying I told you so.

That's such a helpful and useful post! Gosh, I'm glad you're here to be this constructive! Thank goodness you're not some useless sack of shit who thinks they're better than everyone else, and then when their lie to the town doesn't work out, retreats into five-year-old level retorts!

Because that would be kind of sad!

[Magua]

Also, and while I do very much mean everything I said in 5853 I mean this even more: You said

the exact same fucking things

about Garruk.

Your complete lack of comprehension of the similarities that I see between these two events is staggering.

[Magua]

@Cephrir, SafetyDance, SafetyDance:

If you could give me your current, up to the minute reads, and take on the last three Days, that'd be super swell.

[Magua]

Why do you have SD twice?

Because I misspelled "Shadoweh" the second time.

@Cephrir:

I don't want ISOs. I don't want sixty page dissertations or PbPAs or any of that crap. I want just your first level responses to what's happened since ooba's fakeclaim.

[Magua]

@Alchemist:

You've really got zero said about Alfred. None of what you've said so far has been about Alfred; the only people you've given a read on today has been Nautilus.

Kindly enlighten me with your thought process that led from "Thank God I'm going to be lynched" to "1v1 time with Nautilus!" to "Alright, I'll vote Borden"

[Magua]

That's odd. I foe Bennmage, and I still see his posts. Must be a bug.

@Alchemist:

Really would like you my question answered regarding your movement onto the Alfred wagon.

[Magua]

Magua - you really have to explain your thought process from "Alchemist claimed scum and there's no way we're lynching anybody else" to "Alfred's really the one I want to lynch today"

Two parts:

1) "Alchemist claimed scum, he's going to be lynched" in my 5726 was me trying to a) pressure TA to post and b) get others' reads on TA. I do this. Wanting content and reads and stuff. It's weird, I know.

2) Alfred's been a strong scumread of mine since their reaction to Benmage's fake guilty followed by their reaction to Garruk's flip. It's not like this is out of nowhere. At the risk of having to point out the obvious, the fact that I unvoted at L-1 shows that my Alfred scumread is not 100% secure, so, hooray hyperbole.

What caused the "switch" to me voting Alfred is I wanted to see what would happen (ie who would attack and who would defend).

Since the format of your question is very close to the format of me asking Alchemist about their turnaround, allow me to point out the difference FMPOV is that I've expressed Alfred-scum for awhile, whereas Alchemist didn't mention them at all prior to voting, which is what prompted the question.

Need to wrap presents and clean up, and then I'll give this some thought.

[Magua]

FUCKING UNVOTE ALFRED NOW

JESUS H. CHRIST BENMAGE

WHAT THE FUCK

MESSIAH WAS HAPPY AS HELL FOR AN ALFRED LYNCH YESTERDAY

[Magua]

Shadoweh should also unvote. With three scum alive, we're one mislynch from lylo. With some vote shenanigan power in play, let's hold off on building wagons, shall we?

If you look at Dance with Dragons Mafia, which had a traitor on the Stannis side, you'll note it was an informed traitor (knew all the Stannis members).

If you look at The Wire, also by Faraday, you'll see the traitor there *also* knew the members of the scumteam.

So, I'm pretty damn sure that Messiah knew who the scum here were. They didn't know him, but him jumping onto that Alfred wagon and yelling for thunder is a pretty fair indication to me that Alfred is not, as much as I want him to be, scum.

PEdit: Don't think Benmage is scum, Titus.

[Magua]

Messiah was also jumping onto an Alchemist lynch D7, which makes me re-evaluate that.

[Magua]

Er, yes?

[Magua]

I mean, one of them is now a mod-confirmed idiot. So.

The other one I have seen, as town:
1) Govern scum in order to lynch town,
2) As VT, breadcrumb a guilty and then later counterclaim a cop to get the cop lynched

My opinion of Benmage is not, it should be said, high.

But there was just little reason for him to do that as scum. Town's flapping around like a chicken without a head; why put your neck out there as scum? You don't need to.

[Magua]

Taking a page from Regfan:

Town (Strong to weak): Alfred, Titus, Benmage, and Alchemist

Scum (Strong to weak): Nautilus, Cephrir, SafetyDance, Shadoweh

PEdit:

Benmage opens the next day with a claimed guilty on Garruk. It serves to totally bury TA as a scum suspect. It works pretty damn well too. He has OMG! I'm an idiot to support his position. Frankly, I don't suffer idiots gladly.

...

Since we have ooba-town, counterpoint: Why would Benmage-scum not simply push for ooba-town to be lynched under lynch all liars?

Yeah, I get that you don't suffer idiots. If I'd known what a clusterfuck this was going to be, I wouldn't've joined, to be quite honest, but I'm here. And guess what? IDIOT DOES NOT MEAN SCUM.

I mean, I've got fucking history here with Benmage that just shows he's a colossal prick with complete disregard for how to play the game. BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKING HIM FUCKING SCUM NO MATTER HOW MUCH I WANT HIM TO BE.

[Magua]

Fuck, you've got ooba's flip staring you right in the face.

[Magua]

lolokay vote me then suckah. Man your scumlist is bad. The kind of bad that scum have to push because they have no options.

With the mod vote on Alfred, you're laying down a vote that, were you town, allows for a three-man scumteam to hammer.

In response to, from what I gather, is an action that failed last Night.

Before the person in question can even answer.

And you're calling me bad?

---

PEdit:

Naut is my biggest townread Magua....

Ok. Why?

[Magua]

Ah, with Benmage being

a turd

a more polite way to say a turd, Shadoweh has Alfred at L-2 on the fifth post of the Day with three scum alive.

[Magua]

WHAT THE FUCK SHADOWEH

VOTE SHENANIGANS ARE PRESENT TODAY AND SO COULD BE FUCKING PRESENT TOMORROW

WHICH MEANS TODAY COULD BE LYLO

AND INSTEAD

YOU'RE ALL

"WELL FUCK LET'S PUT 'IM AT L-2 BECAUSE ITS NOT LIKE WE HAVE DIPSHITS IN THIS GAME WHO'LL QUICKHAMMER REGARDLESS OF ALIGNMENT OR ANYTHING"

[Magua]

Shadoweh, other scum besides Alfred.

PEdit: Titus.

I think massclaiming, especially in this setup, doesn't help town and only helps scum, and that tends to be the case in all Faraday setups.

It's easy to say and it doesn't cement you to any reads. Similarly, "Slow the fuck down guys," is a useful but contentless sentiment (and I say this with the full knowledge I say this all the time myself).

The best indication of Nautilus-town to me at this time would be his defense of Alfred Borden-town. The rest of what I've seen from him has been meh. Do not know the D1 thing you are referring to.

---

There are three scum alive, so normally 4:3 (7p) would be lylo. But if the scum can generate a vote, then today would be lylo if they are capable of generating the vote tomorrow as well.

And since there's no way to know whether the second part about being able to generate the vote tomorrow is true or not, better to play it safe.

PEdit:

because of scum vote manip that somehow Faraday wouldn't announce

Yeah. Like a vote from the mod in the vote count or anything unannounced like that.

[Magua]

I think the vote manip is MC being a restless spirit. It's the only role I've heard of that wasn't players voting.

To that end, I'm near certain we shouldn't lynch AB.

It's a common way of denoting that someone is publicly hated. I did the same thing in Paranoia Mafia.

[Magua]

So, Cephrir.

You think Alfred is town. Great, I agree!

But you think I could be scum. So walk me through this thought process vis-a-vis taking him off of L-1

[Magua]

Reviewing the mod ISO, I do see that Messiah was happy on the SpyreX lynch, but not the Quadz one, so he was willing to bus at least once, which reduces Alchemist-town read.

I am unaware of any relationship between you and Messiah the whole game. Scanning the mod ISO, I see you vote him early on D1 and that's it, and he never votes you at all. The first isn't really relevant because loltraitor; where do you see any pressure from Messiah on yourself?

---

PEdit: Titus. Er. I don't recall any gambit. Will look.

[Magua]

Oh, the "all townies got this PM, did you get it?" bit?

Yeah, I fucking ignored that.

But you bringing it up is one of the many reasons I'm sure you're town.

[Magua]

Ctrl-F Ceph in their iso or Messiah in mine, it's not hard

So when you say "Messiah powerbussed me," what you mean by "powerbussed" is "never voted for ever"?

[Magua]

Why did you pick someone who was likely to got dead overnight?

@Alfred:

The above.

@Titus:

I've given my list.

@Benmage:

Stop being a douchecanoe.

@Cephrir:

Much like Benmage and "modconfirmed", I'm not sure you understand what powerbussing is. Distancing, on the other hand, seems a lot closer to what you've described.

(And no, I haven't ctrl-F'ed through either of your ISOs.)

[Magua]

@Nautilus:

Tell me which of my townreads you disagree with.

As for pushing reads, since you mentioned HunterxHunter: Show me who I pushed in HunterxHunter before Syryana on Day 5 or something (and was the only town lynch in that entire game). For Scummies Invitational, my big push the entire game was Tierce, who I never actually tried to get a wagon on.

I get it, you're annoyed I'm calling you scum. Fucking boo hoo.

@Cephrir:

I'm reading the thread just fine. Just not anything before I replaced in. Did the exact same thing in LoL Mafia, so am urgently awaiting you explaining why you're thinking this is scummy.

[Magua]

Oh and now that Marketplace is over, please read Empires posts in the hydra we had together

I read them the first time.

If you want to point something out specifically to me regarding Empire and you that you think would change my opinion on you, feel free.

If you're talking about Empire because of Alfred, I'll point out my previous posts where I already think Alfred is town.

If you've got some other reason, I will already admit that it's totally lost on me.

In the meantime, you could stop sadfacing to my post and actually say which of my townreads you disagree with.

---

Yes, but now you've been informed there are specific things you need to look at that would inform your reads, and you still refuse. That's the difference. To anyone who's read the thread your positions are just clearly untenable, and I am not the only one telling you this.

Nah, see, this is my view on this:

You say: Holy shit Messiah was totally powerbussing me!
I say: He never voted for you. Once. Ever.
You say: But he said bad things about me, go read the ISO.

Now, you can say what you want about my belief that reading what's happened after replacing in is useless and doesn't help. I would think you're wrong, since, hey, it's my belief, but whatever's fair.
Thank god I replace into a bunch of games and so have a nice, solid meta for this. Hooray, meta!

But lets get to the interesting bits!

You say you're not the only one telling me this. But you seem to be the only one telling me this. More to the point, you're not saying a goddamn thing other than "You think I'm scum? You must be scum." Oh, no, you're also saying, "You do this thing I've seen you do in that other game I played where you were town, and indeed this thing you do in every game? You must be scum." But that's sort of belaboring the point.

I point out the L-1 wagon stall. You ignore. Not even a thought in response to -- you just repeat the previous two points.

[Magua]

Also probably just gonna vote Magua for being super high school level obvscum. I will find you though Alfred. I am going to follow everywhere you could be and prove that you are scum, mark my words.

So.

I want to make sure I understand your Alfred case here.

You: "Alfred is scum, he didn't neighborize me, here let me put him at L-2"
Naut: "Alfred neighborized me."
You: "Oh, my bad."

Do I have that more or less correct?

[Magua]

What the *fuck* is it with

fucking Benmage

you people.

"Day before lylo with weird mod voting restriction over the holiday week between Christmas and New Year's? Fuck it, hammer!"

Fucking Benmage

Alfred town.
Benmage

is a fuckwit

is terrible

is probably town.
Titus is town.
Nautilus scum.
Cephrir pretty likely scum.
SafetyDance pretty likely scum.

[Magua]

No words.

[Magua]

Magua what do you think of Alfreds scumteam?

I agree on SafetyDance through PoE. I disagree on Titus. I want you, specifically, to be scum so badly it hurts, but that's just wishful thinking. So, in short, 1/3.

@Alfred:

You're the only one who I think is town who thinks Titus is scum. I'm pretty certain Titus is town from play/posts. Enlighten me on why you think he's scum.

So... how strong is that Alfred townread?

Since I believe that Messiah knew the scumteam, had plenty of town people he could've gone after (Ooba, Alchemist), but instead chose to jump on an Alfred flashwagon...it's actually pretty strong.

I mean, I still have a large BoP on Alfred that they're straight up not living up to, and I don't see thoughts behind their posts, but Messiah's play outweighs all of that handily in my mind.

[Magua]

See.

You have the answer right here. He could have gone for town OOba. Or town Alchemist.

BUT CHOSE TO BUS HIS PARTNER. TO MAKE HIS PARTNER LOOK TOWN.

HELLOO COFFEE WAKE THE FUCK UP.

Possible. But unlikely. Messiah was already voting Alchemist, who was L-2. He leaves that to join an Alfred flash wagon? Why? If he was going to bus Alfred to get Alfred some towncred, I'd expect either more distancing-over-time or more single-minded tunneling. "Oh, someone's voting scum, let's jump on that" doesn't fit in my mind as a bussing strategy. Too seat of the pants.

[Magua]

Not saying Messiah wouldn't bus (he bussed Quadz). Saying that if he bussed it would be more deliberate and planned.

(As for HunterxHunter: Them bussing every single Day cost them the game, handily. Which is why I tend to presume scum don't play that shittily.)

[Magua]

I mean maybe he just bussed because it felt good.
I sure as hell didn't have a deliberate and planned bussing in mind when I bussed doctor pepper.

1) Messiah was a traitor, not a scummember, and
2) Huge difference between casting off dead weight like DrPepper vs Alfred Borden

@SafetyDance:

You should've had scumreads yesterday. You then had 48 hours to update them for TheAlchemist's flip. So don't pull this "have reads already? That's bullshit" dance. You had me as scum yesterday; if that didn't change because of events, you should still quickly have me as scum today. If it did change, you should already know that it's changed. Etc.

@Benmage:

If it comes down to you-or-Alfred because no quickhammer, you should know I'm going to vote you. Just a heads up.

[Magua]

From my personal thoughts QT:

So first things first, is that I really never want to play in a game with Benmage again. I think he's town, but even if he's scum just taking abuse of his town proclivity to do stupid shit, the point remains the same -- he'll happily do stupid shit that'll ruin a game and then completely abdicate responsibility for it and do it again.

It's like a running thing with Faraday's games, but Benmage has a goddamn history of doing this; it's not a one-shot deal like it was with Ludi. Nah.

I don't need that shit.

I had a big ol' response typed up when I saw there was a quickhammer on Alfred a few hours after the Day opened in lylo, and I was all set up to lambast people about the stupidity of instant voting in lylo.

Then Alfred flipped scum and in my QT I'm all, "Welp, now I get to be the mislynch that ends the game." So the game being ended before that happens is actually preferable.

Honestly equally surprised with Nautilus being town and Titus being scum. I don't think I ever would've switched positions on either of those. So better to be short and sweet and wrong than long and drawn out and wrong.

[Magua]

Annoying to have been reading Alfred as scum, then change that based on a supposition about how traitor works normally, only to find out I was right originally and wrong on how the traitor worked in this game. S'my fault for letting mechanics take precedence over my reads.

Totally 10,000% read Titus as town, though.

@Tierce:

I was happy when you died because every single game I've ever been in with you I've thought you were scum. =P

[Magua]

Your posts felt very genuine to me. Even the posts where you're obviously wrong I read as motivated by genuine emotion (eg, Benmage being scum, even when presented with much evidence that Benmage does this shit as town -- reads like inexperienced town being mad than planning scum).

I read you as the sort of inexperienced town that scum keep around solely for voting wrong in lylo.

[Magua]

I'm painfully aware of this. You'll eventually realize I never roll scum~