A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Thor665]

Oh sweet mercy, really?

Really?

13 pages since game start?
13 pages in about 18 hours?
Whilst I am in v/la times?

Yeah...

Claim

: Not reading all of that unless someone tells me something amazing happened during it.

oh, and also;

Claim

: Miller.

Boo-yah, now, thanks to site meta, basically I'm conf. town, in yo' faces, now I can be even *more* snarky than normal and get away with it.

In other news, who is the biggest wagon? I want to vote them.

[Thor665]

Vote: elleheathen

I dun did good.

[Thor665]

And I suppose I should clarify;

I'm only a Miller insomuch as I show up as guilty (or the equivalent used for this game) in regular cop investigations.
That means people who are not "regular cops" could still check me and I'll be town.
So, y'know, I'm an Innocent Child effect basically.

[Thor665]

So the claim is at least optimal play that coincides with what your playstyle is (at least in regards to not wanting to have to play under the radar) so then what's your flavor name?

What does my flavor name have to do with the price of tea in China?

Hey thor, got a question if your still at thread?

I wasn't.
Now I am.
Later I won't be.
I would normally just say 'ask the question and when I get back I'll nswer it' but I'll be honest, if there are another 13+ pages in 18 hours then I probably won't.
I am currently working a 10pm to 10:30am shift and go to sleep around 2-3pm all CST.
Feel free to try and catch me with this question whenever it will work for you since apparently it needs real world response time for maximum scumhuntage.

I don't actually like this very much. The refusal to read not-really-that-much given that you're a pretty analytical/careful player as well as the "lookit me I'm conftown" style of claiming miller.

I don't think you actually know my playstyle at all if you remotely think either behavior is unusual from me.
Hell, I do both when I have no logical reason to back up either decision other than ;aziness and pride respectively - I will certainly do them off v/la and role-verification at the drop of a hat.
Why do you think I wouldn't?

[Thor665]

I'd like to see if it in any way would coincide with what flavor I'd expect a miller to be drawn from as my natural inclination is to suspect claims - especially when they come in with 'Smurf 18 pages, initiate RVS vote because I'm clearly conftown'.

Why, what did I miss in those 18 pages that I should have read?
I'm guessing it was all pretty boring.

what's the harm in asking the flavor name when he's revealed what his role is?

What's the advantage?
I mean, other than to lynchers or something?
Because, at this point, your vague claim is 'I think Thor is too dumb to manage to have a fake name claim to go with his fake Miller claim if he's scum who decided to gambit Miller.
And to that I say - look at my win rate as scum and my join date and then stop trying to explain to your grandmother how to suck eggs.

[Thor665]

1. And yet it was done, and was awesome. Fear me.

2. You could be - let's see if anyone even blinks an eye at me doing so.
But what is your experience with me as a man who reads everything? I know we've played together before, but which games?

[Thor665]

Nope, if you can't describe the advantage than it doesn't matter if I can describe the disadvantage outside of fear of lynchers. Because, hey, fear of lynchers.
Also, seriously, my rolename will help you quantify the validity of the rather normal and pointed claim of 'Miller'?

Uh...no, it doesn't work like that with a Miller claim.

Sure, if I'd claimed ' post restricted 3-shot day vig hormonal sociopath' and then *didn't* nameclaim Caetlyn, okay, sure, maybe you have something going.
But Miller? Meh - there's only about EVERY FREAKIN' CHARACTER who is shades of gray in this series, so...yeah, I don't think it would help you do jack.

My vote on you is serious now.
How's that help your read of my roleclaim?

[Thor665]

You're not supposed to kneel before me because I'm more experienced.
You are supposed to not waste my time with trying to catch me in a scumtell based around me not knowing how to put together a fake claim (especially one as ballsy as Day 1 Miller claim...y'know, a claim I wasn't rushed into in any way at all, nor forced to do, but chose to do as a clear strategy regardless of my alignment meaning I had time to think about it? Yeah, that one, where your plan was to catch me having not formulated a fake name claim that makes 'any sense at all' with my role claim?)

But, gawsh, fine, here's my nameclaim just for you;

Nameclaim: Casso, King of the Seals

[Thor665]

@Ooba - that is a terrible misrep and you should feel terrible.

[Thor665]

Who are the scum pushing her and why would you push a misrep like that on someone you thought was town?

[Thor665]

It's not "I know Thor reads everything so much as "I know Thor tries pretty hard at this game so I would think he'd want all the available information". But if you say you don't always read everything, I believe you. If you want me to refer to past games anyhow- I thought I'd played with you prior to my first departure from the site, but I don't think that's possible due to your join date, so I must just be thinking of Open 326, which I briefly returned for and then re-disappeared.

I feel like you sort of extracted the whole 'Thor would read everything' belief from wholecloth, yes/no?

oh god I think thor is actually scum this game but I made a promise to myself not to go after him right away cos it will only clog the game up with the mollie/thor shitshow

You are so terrible at reading me I am amazed that you continue to act like you have any capability to do so.

You know that there are non-regular cops in the game?

I know what my role PM told me about cops in this game, and now you do too.

I don't see the misrep by ooba that Thor is pushing.

That's odd because;

Thor's accusation of a misrep makes a lot more sense now.

Ooba was able to figure it out.
Why so thick?

Wait, what? Wouldn't your role PM already tell you how you'd show up to cop investigations?

I think it did, and I provided you that information.
Oh, wait, are you accussing me of claiming that the mod didn't reveal the existence or lack thereof of multiball in my Miller PM?
Because that seems pretty normal really.

Thor,
1) Have you read/watched the series?
2) Why did you pick Casso?

1. Read all of it.
Watched Season 1-2, not 3 yet.

2. Why wouldn't I pick Casso, he's one of the kings and will clearly soon sit the Seastone Chair.

Anyway, I don't buy that the mods would have informed the miller about the presence of non-standard cops, so Thor's miller claim looks bogus,
- I'm a miller, but you could still investigate me as town.

What's your read on Benmage?

I don't know if...well I don't put anything past Thor...but I don't know how to really read Thor, or don't think I do

Oh...filed under 'things I should sig'

All the people giving Thor possible responses are irritating me to no end.

Is this another case of 'I could catch scum Thor, if only he were made to answer a really weakball question ver 2.0?
Because it feels like it.
Seriously, how pathetic of a scum player does everyone here think I am? I don't recall too many of you being part of leading brilliant lynches of me last I checked.
Just saying.

compare that to KKB's behavior which demonstrates wagon jumping... now if people tell me that is his normal town play, fine, and when I have time it may be concerning enough to meta check...

Um...how is wagon jumping scummy in any way at all?
Especially in the first few days of Day 1?

I'm down for a D1 policy lynch. I don't get why Thor says site meta he's confirmed town???

I'm saying site meta is to treat me like confirmed town.
Which, you'll already note a decent pile of town, and probably most of the scum are already doing.
Probably one scum is going to be willing to lob his cantaloupes into the ring and push on me a bit - care to explain how I'm scum for claiming a belief about site meta?
I could use a laugh.

Oh, and I picked Casso because I wanted to be a Miller.
Obviously.

I think that Elle thing is town now.
Painfully newb, but at least unlike the other newbs here, managing to seep out some town vibes.
Paranoia is a hell of a drug.

Sort of want to lynch Benny or Zeddy now.
Benny manages to make very slightly less sense than Zeddy - and that takes some doing.

Unvote: Elli-alaphabet
Vote: Benmage

I may be down with the ooba lulz wagon, but I'll admit the copping to the misrep actually feels townish. Ooba is certainly skilled enough that might be a feint to the growing pressure...but my gut kind of says town on that one too, so I think we can do better.
Let's lynch Benny for lulz, I like to lynch him Day 1 anyway.

[Thor665]

Where does site meta say to treat you as confirmed town? For claiming D1??? I just Smurfing showed that is idiotic logic.

Sweet - I never claimed it was logical, all I said was it was site meta to do so.
My evidence is in this thread.
But feel free to go and find me a Day 1 Miller claim where the Miller claimed as part of their first post and was then lynched anytime in the next three days.
I'll wait.

-I'm calling you scum for you're zomgconftown push.
--You are far from conftown, Do I ever care what the peasants think? I'm the Hand for a reason.

So, I'm scum because...I think my role is confirmable and an unlikely scum claim?
Brilliant...?

-You picked Casso because you wanted to be a Miller.
--Refresh my memory, in asoif how is Casso the logical Miller choice? Moreover Faraday made it quite clear characters don't determine alignment, as someone just said, scum miller.

He is the king of all his peoples and the most beloved king of any king in the series.
Yet, people don't give him the respect he deserves.
Sad really.

-Why do you want me lynched/think I'm scum?

I already said why - which part didn't you understand?

[Thor665]

Can you link me to a KKB game where he didn't jump votes?
Because it seems exceedingly in character for him to me.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

But, no, I am a Miller, but, yes, there may have been sarcasm somewhere in my claim.

[Thor665]

I can't even respond to this thread right now without laughing.
Pardon me, I'll be back later. We'll see what questions people wish to stand behind as demanding answers about.

[Thor665]

Advocating lynching Benmage via yolologic(TM) the same way he was advocating lynching you? =/

As long as you ignore my commentary that I think at least one scum would be trying to present my claim as a reason to lynch me, than - yes, my case is equally as unsupported as his.
Oh, wait, that was snark again, wasn't it?
Darn.
I'm bad at this.

In other news, Casso is blatantly my real name claim and needs to be analyzed in regards to my Miller claim from a guy claiming my role and alignment and whatnot aren't even connected.

You're allowed to sheep me and vote Benmage now.

@Amrun - I do think Ceph has a point insomuch as your denunciation of Benamge felt...oddly strident?

[Thor665]

It just kind of made my head explode. Like, omg, vote Thor because he has claimed that a miller works exactly the way a miller works! wut

Yeah...it just felt strident, like maybe you knew I was town and were looking for the bonus points for the easy defense.
You don't think it looked that way?

In related news, I have no idea who Casso is. Someone refresh my memory?

Casso is the King of The Seals and currently resides in Braavos where he serves as an inspiration and friend to everyone's favorite character Arya/Arry/Weasel/et al.
He's sort of a big deal.

Also, I'm not scumreading Thor but am I the only one who doesn't buy the "lol Casso" claim

Seriously?
It's times like this I wonder if I should go back to using [sarcasm][/sarcasm].

thor, here is your cake:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4798828

That's an example of a Cop fakeclaiming Miller and not being lynched Day one...seems in line with what I've said wherein Miller claims are never lynched Day 1, and indeed are highly unlikely lynches ever.

2) Did Thor misuse site meta, and come in way to high and mighty that he's conftown. Yes

I think you are confusing 'site meta' with 'how I think reality should be' and also, seriously, are you saying I'm scum because I'm faking what I believe site meta to be?
Seriously?
What am I, like a...013?

-He himself agrees the logic to write a miller claim off as conftown doesn't add up. I ask him for a meta reference.. he gives me the ropeadope.. and I'm the jackSmurf .

You'll note I also asked you to provide meta, and you gave me an equivalent ropeadope - so that's a pretty weak backhand coming from you.
If we want to do this seriously one of us would need to dig up all the Miller claims for the past year and examine them.
I'm personally never going to do that - but I bet I'm dead right about what went down with the majority of them.
That's what makes it site meta.

How many times must I say... I find him scummy not for his claim, but rather the way he auto-confirmed himself town.

My bad, was I supposed to suggest my role confirmed me as scum or something?
I didn't realize by saying that my slightly oddball role strongly indicated I was town when I invited any non-regular cop to check and confirm me as town.
Blow me down, how scummy of me.

Are we really going to play the join date elitism game in this thread? I'd be willing to bet join date is not statistically significant for anything except possibly being mislynched D1. Most 2013s are probably better scumhunters than me. So kindly take that argument and [redacted for decency].

Oh posh, you're a 006, you're *way* better than Benmage.
Says it on the label.

Yes, it is. That's how I figured out he was lying. He carries the same opinion you have over miller claims, and absolutely was not trying to pull a legitimate miller claim in thread.

I was specifically trying to pull a Miller claim in this thread and indicated again after the fact that it was a legit claim.
I will now do so for a third time - react accordingly.

[Thor665]

Yes, it is. That's how I figured out he was lying. He carries the same opinion you have over miller claims, and absolutely was not trying to pull a legitimate miller claim in thread.

I was specifically trying to pull a Miller claim in this thread and indicated again after the fact that it was a legit claim.
I will now do so for a third time - react accordingly.

[Thor665]

I will say, I feel kinda like you're using the whole miller deal as a way to play purely reactively and I'd like to see you do some legitimate scumhunting rather than continue replying to Benmage.

I still don't think you understand how I play.
Also, hint, I am scumhunting.

Apologies, I admit that I Smurfed up.
The rest of my reaction is somewhere in the realms of ignoring you and continuing to lynch scum if you don't mind.

Weren't you going to vote me for my stance *except* that you knew I was faking?
So...shouldn't you vote me now that you know I wasn't?

I asked you for specifics... not to check every miller claim on site, but just where your version may have stemmed from.

Well, go with any game I've been in with a Miller claim Day 1 Post 1 for starters.
As I said already.

So that has been my point... That being Miller in no way confirms you town.

And...as *I've* said already - I totally agree that this is a sensible mindset.
that said, site meta doesn't follow said mindset, so I don't really see the point.

Are you merely saying now, that claiming miller will just make you a subject of disagreement and therefore be tough to lynch?

I have never said that - though, yes, I suppose it's true.

Cause I agree there, but that's not the first impression I got.

I would hope not, as it's not what I said nor meant.

I didn't realize by saying that my slightly oddball role strongly indicated I was town when I invited any non-regular cop to check and confirm me as town.

How would confirming you "role" confirm your alignment?

I know someone said they had a game with a Miller scum (and speaking of mods that need to be slapped...then again, I've been traitor in a game where that was the VT PM...again, speaking of mods that need to be slapped) .
That said, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that's non-standard. The basic premise of a Miller is that it's a town role. Just like with my traitor town gak - just because it has happened does not mean it's worth touting out as remotely the way things happen 99% of the time.
I also believe my alignment is verifiable if there is a non regular cop that can verify alignment some way.
Also, your case is pretty dumb, there's that too
"Oh, Thor thinks his role makes him town, unlike all other PR role claims in existence, oh, oh, oh! I'm so experienced, but apparently this is a shocking and new thing to me!"

Seriously - what did you hope to accomplish by asking this question? (I don't mind questions in general, but this one irks me.)

Why does it irk you so much, it's a question about your take on my read of you?
This feels defensive and deflectionary.

I hoped to get a read on you - that's sort of the point of most questions, last I checked.
What did you think my purpose was to get defensive about it?


-----------

In other news, I'm okay with the idea of Alfred ending up dead now.

[Thor665]

The question of the premise doesn't even make sense. I have no idea how what I would do would generate towncred in the first place. I did it simply because it was my natural reaction and as an attempt to read Zdenek.

Your natural reaction thus far this game has been defense of not getting too screamy.
Why do you think this moment generated screams if it was not faked? I know it was your "natural reaction" and all...but it doesn't seem to gel with your other "natural reactions" in this thread, yeah?

P-edit: above applies to you too Thor

My vote is pretty awesome right where it is - even if you think Benmage is town what makes that read so awesome as to make my vote suck?
His case on me is pretty nonexistent for the strength of it, easily justifying my reaction to it.
What do you see that I'm missing?

@Thor: I don't get your playstyle, nor do I care for it.

Then you should probably stop commenting on my meta.

We've got three walls about Benmage and now one throwaway comment about Alfred.

That you missed multiple discussions with others as well as multiple other reads within those walls kind of leaves me wondering why I should listen to anything you're saying.
Are you reading the game?
I know I didn't read a lot of it, but at least I read what I comment on...do you?

I don't get why you'd handle two apparent scumreads in polar opposite ways.

Why shouldn't I? I can't vote twice, so why should I case wall twice?

And least of all, I don't get your fascination with trying to deliberately infuriate people while insisting they answer your questions without answering any of theirs.

Did I do that? That would be GAKKED UP!
Quote the question I didn't answer.
I'll immediately answer it and self-vote!

[Thor665]

This page makes me weep so far.

I will say;

@Ceph - your failure to provide the question I didn't answer...I will choose to take that as admitting you were wrong/lying when you made that claim, okay?

[Thor665]

And sweet mercy;

@Entire Thread - I know most of you are on top of this, but allow me this moment.

[sarcasm]Nameclaim: Casso, King of the Seals[/sarcasm]

That is all.

@Elle - that all said, you wanted the name claim to...scumhunt me in some manner...you apparently did nothing with it besides just going 'that's a weird claim...must be legit!'
Did I miss something?

[Thor665]

No, that is not okay. Go away.

So...want to quote the question I didn't answer then?
You called me out over it - why not rub my face in it now?
If you have no interest in rubbing my face in it...why bring it up as a point for anything if you don't want to back it up?

[Thor665]

You ignored questions about your rolename roughly seven thousand times.

No, I answered them all - I didn't always answer them with the answer people wanted, but I did respond to them.

And responding with sarcasm to questions does not count as answering them.

Actually, yes, yes it does.
Just because I'm asked a question does not mean I'm *obligated* to answer it the way they want.

@Ceph - yo, could you quote your role PM in thread so I can see if you'll be modkilled when you post a town one?

See, that's an inane question - therefore you shouldn't do it...but that doesn't mean when you answer 'sod off' that it isn't an answer'

"Thor, please roleclaim"
"No."
"Thor, seriously, roleclaim."
"No."
"Thor...could you roleclaim?"
"Sure, I'm Casso, now go away."
"Why did you pick Casso?"
"Because I wanted to be a Miller"

The above conversation is never avoiding the questions, it is responding to them all.
Now, if you are seriously suggesting that 'not wanting to answer an unsupported request for name claiming = teh scumz or = teh anti-townz...well...okay...but I want you to clarify this is what you believe out loud.
So I can be sarcastic with you.

I think it gels just fine with my other reactions, and even if it doesn't, my job is not to have my reactions "gel." That's something I might be more concerned about as scum, tbf.

I've explained why I don't think it gels, why do you think it does?

Town:
ALFIE

Amrun

Zero Information:
Safetydance

Scum Candidates:
Syryana
Andrius
Shadoweh

More later.

Unvote: Benmage
Vote: Alfred

Thor: you break my heart, seals are awesome. Thankfully, Goat on a Raft repaired it immediately afterward with those avatars. <3

If it is any consolation - if I had thought about him at the time he would have gone on my request list.
I did have some unusual options there.

@Syr - I don't despise the Ceph push, but I don't want to sheep it at this moment either. I actually think he might just be that bad as town presuming I am remembering the game he and I had together correctly. The entire town kept stopping conversations and voting people they thought were rude and congratulating themselves on their brilliance.

[Thor665]

Why vote Alfred?

Because he posted a reads list that contains so few town reads combined with a handful of weak wristed scum reads combined with not including me a player he may or may not have just indicated should die and/or had nonsensical votes. Also, he had just indicated a townread on Benmage but left him off his town list, making either this lista lie, or his advocacy of Benmage=teh townz a lie, so either way I want him dead now.

Sheep me?

[Thor665]

Is your Ceph cased based on anything other than the points I already noted and suggested were meta with him?
Because if not that comment alone probably torpedoed your Ceph push.

[Thor665]

Good job attracting sheep.

...oh, wait, I screwed that up, I meant;

[sarcasm]Good job attracting sheep.[/sarcasm]

[Thor665]

Elle's case on me summed up.

He claimed Miller, thereby not allowing us to use a Cop to discern his alignment.
Therefore, since I find him hard to read because he's sarcastic, he must be scum.
Also, this is probably a gambit to out non-cops.
Y'know, because scum probably have something to help him with that.

I will ignore that he may have claimed Miller to help town by not having cops waste shots on him (something that, in reading so many of his games he always seems to feel happens.) and also that his sarcasm is a brutal and total playstyle tell from him...something I *also* should have been able to figure out if I looked at his other games like I said I did.

@Elle - what games did you look at where you got the vibe that sarcasm is remotely a tell on me in any way at all...and if you don't think it is, why is it part of your case on me? Me being hard to read for you is *NOT* actually a sensible scum case...sure, you can vote me over it, but at least admit how bad the case is when you make it and don't try to dress it up.

Whassup?

Oh, also, and in correcting you if you're wrong - with a Miller claim the following roles can all provide rather serious evidence about my alignment; gunsmith, role cop, faction cop, tracker, follower.
Neither Watcher or Voyuer can but...then again, they can't do so for anyone they target...though I suppose if they watched or Voyeured someone *I* targeted, then, again, they would help identify my alignment (since, y'know, Thor would have lied...y'know).
Flavor cop wouldn't help until and if I was forced to nameclaim...also known as 'the only way a Flavor Cop ever helps in a uPick' so it's meaningless because he's as effective versus me as versus anyone.
Yes, a regular cop could not help alignment identify me...because I am a Miller...which is the entire concept of Miller.
You might as well whine that a Cop doesn't help you find a Godfather

[Thor665]

Hey Thor- bolded are parts of elle's case you have just completely ignored while giving your smarmy-ass 'summary'. You are misrepresenting her pretty hard while also only responding to her weak points. I recognize that not all of these are things you can answer to and you've already addressed some of them, but this post of yours is essentially still lying.

Oh, reeeeeally?

The 'I'm a conftown Miller

and Innocent Child basically.'

If she would like to say that she honestly believes I claimed Innocent Child I will respond to this.
Heck, if you would like to claim that I will also respond to this.
Step right up, I'm game, Thor will be smary to you for demanding he respond to derpy blather additions to a case

The fakenameclaim.

I did respond to this by pointing out it was fake.
I also think that the number of people calling Benmage silly for treating my claim of being Casso as serious shows that it was actually relatively clear it was a joke unless you were being rather odd about how you read my claim there.
Again - if either you or she would like to clarify why this was scummy as opposed to sarcasm that was treated as serious by a tiny minority of the game I will respond to whatever the scum part of the case is.
Man, I totally am dodging *brilliant* stuff here in misrepping her case on me as kinda dumb, aren't I?

The fact that he gets super defensive and derogatory that I would dare to suggest that the almighty Thor is scum when what I am actually doing is asking him for a reason to believe that his miller claim is legit and for a reason to think he's town -

and

I state this prior.

Kindly list for me all the ways I can prove my Miller claim is legit - I will then do them.
Kindly list for me all the ways I'm supposed to reassure someone that siimply because a player makes a Miller claim it doesn't actually make them either more or less inherently scummy (though I would suggest my claim has enough specifics in it and actual *ruling IN* of ways to investigate me that it's a pretty weak scum gambit if such as my intention.
Gosh, lucky I dodged addressing this...?

Ceph's note: You have greatly oversimplified what she's saying here.

That's oddly the common definition of "summary" with the added addition of "over"
We're still trying to figure out the parts I cut out that are worth a darn, but I'll address them anyway to help you feel safe.

I would beg to differ that trackers and followers can say much about your alignment, since you performing a kill would be rather stupid at this juncture. But this point isn't important.

I already explained that (and other errors) to her in my oversimplified response.
But, yes, good job noting that she's not actually thinking through what she's saying...which was my point.

I think a lot of it stems from reading his scum qt's and the fact that this seems exactly the type of gambit he would try to pull off as scum - if just 'for the lols'.

I did address this.
I actually flat out stated to her that it didn't look like she had read my games at all.
You've been in *one* game with me and seem to understand already that I am sarcastic...so why do you think she missed it after looking at game*s*?
And, if all she did was look at scum QTs...then I don't think she then has any right to make a value call on my play except insomuch as awareness that I would be willing to pull a gambit...which is, y'know, something so few scum players are willing to do...being known for not fakeclaiming most of the time...yes.

elle is town.

Probably so.
Doesn't mean I shouldn't point out that she doesn't know which end of a shotgun to hold though, is it?

here are a number of reasons why this claim is wonky - I mean, considering alone how alignments came after roles, this could be a brilliant gambit. For example, it could be a miller/watcher/whatever else scum team and he's using this claim to draw our investigative roles to his scumbud so that they know who all those PR's are.

This too, though it isn't a fantastic point.

Really?
But she's town man, you aren't supposed to point out to her that she's derpy...like Thor did...and you got defensive about...by pointing out other derpy things she said...and having issue with me not addressing their derp that altogether still means nothing...?

Huzzah?

Want to sheep me now?
It will be a better use of your time.

[Thor665]

Unless you think Alfred looks town - if so, let me know.

[Thor665]

Er, WTF? Mollie, this head has played with you once. What were you expecting from us exactly?

Mollie actually doesn't know, but she'll make up some unsupported conclusions in her head and then claim them as meta evidence against you.
Time to move away from the trainwreck that i annoyed I haven't demanded we policy lynch her yet (because that means...something alignment wise for me...?) and just sheep me.
I promise good things with a dead Alfred.

[Thor665]

I should have bolded 'conftown' as well. You dropped the fact that she suspects you for the overconfident attitude entirely from post 764 when it was clearly a significant element.

Because when town Thor is not overconfident, but becomes overconfident when scum?
Seriously? You think I need to respond to that somehow?

I have zero problem with your actual actions with regard to this, but again, it's a point she wanted addressed that you pretended didn't exist.

Pointing out it was fake is useless, she's aware it was fake and doesn't seem to like the way you went about that.

Then she should ask me a specific question about her nonsensical attack if she expects it to be responded to.
And you should be able to describe a question, if you have issue with me "dodging the point"

I'm saying I don't like the technique you used to dismiss it. I don't see the town motivation in ignoring half of it and representing the case as worse than it actually is by dropping parts of it.

Ooooh, right, I need to take every case and treat it with a serious mein.
No - this case does NOT deserve me pretending it needs to be addressed seriously. You can barely even manage to say it should either, you're admitting it has holes the size of Swiss cheese and now your apparent issue is;
1. That I didn't address all of the silliness (and now have...revealing I think what I dodged is even more silly than what I did address)
2. That I didn't treat her case with "Respect" Well...yes, I didn't...is that a scumtell, or is this all meaningless issue with my playstyle for the sake of showing how horribly dissapointed in my playstyle you are?

Because I can think of more useful things to be doing from someone who decided earlier to stop communicating with me when I pointed out flaws in his own case.
What a shock - you've found I react the same to cases I think are derpy - AMAZING!

The thrust of this point has nothing to do with your miller claim, it has to do with your attitude.

Making it even derpier then unless "attitude" can be shown to be that I am playing to my scum meta of attitude which is different than my town attitude.
Do you think she has done this?
Do you think she's even tried?
I am saying 'no' to both questions. Which means her current thrust is rather bad if it's what you say it is. How do you answer those questions?

Whether these points are incredible or not is irrelevant to the fact that 764 has no purpose except to misrep the case and continue trying to make everything about your miller claim.

You have not shown a misrep.
You have shown that I didn't specifically address a handful of points of (to my mind) debatable merit.
You haven't even claimed them to be of merit, just vaguely 'major' within her case...even though she doesn't appear to be doing what you're saying she's doing.
Meh.

Also, the point of whether the points I "dodged" and "misrepped" are credible in any way...IS important.
Because you don't waste time dodging and misrepping meaningless drivel - you dodge stuff that can catch you. You misrep stuff to paint it as worse than it is.
I did neither because there was nothing to dodge or misrep in the first place.

So you're saying you wouldn't? Not that I think this is a gambit even if you're scum.

That I wouldn't what? Fakeclaim Miller - yeah, sure, I'd do that.
I'd also legit claim Miller if I was Miller.
You now have as much evidence on me as saying 'Thor could be scum in this game because scum are randomly determined'
Whoo-hoo?

You're allowed to say a case is bad. You're not allowed to do so via pretending half of it doesn't exist.

Oh, so I pretended "half" didn't exist?
Tell me, do you think that's a misrep from you in the same way I misrepped her?
Because you certainly didn't bold "half" of what she said to me as stuff I didn't address.
Oh, wait, you're just making a point...shocking that...seems normal from a town mindset I'm guessing you'll say now...right? As in, pot and kettle here, yes? Meaning what I did was quite normal and reasonable, or what you just did isn't...?

If I was going to sheep someone, it sure as hell wouldn't be you.

Oh, right, because I have an attitude I have bad reads.
Carry on.

[Thor665]

Misrepresenting people is not gaining you any favors, either, and the sad part is that you do it regardless of alignment.

I have to admit I'm sick and tired of always hearing gak like this even when I'm town and trying 100% not to "misrep" people.
I think either me, or a large number of other players, have no flipping idea what that word even means.
I'm pretty sure "summary someone disagrees with" doesn't qualify.

[Thor665]

Can we please have more votes on KKB... do not like the disappearing act in addition

...he's on v/la?

[Thor665]

I'm going to precursor this with:

I never stated nor pretended that this was some big case on you nor tried to present it as such. I never implied it was some strong case at all - and even went so far as to belittle what information it is that makes me think you're scum by saying that it's mostly just speculation and gut.

"And decided to present it anyway - and am voting you regardless"

Do you see the issue there?

Gunsmith - in this case, likely flavored something like swordsmith - could not confirm you as town. They could confirm that you had a weapon and confirm that you lied about your role should you be found with a sword but not as town.

Which...would do exactly what I said it would.

A role cop - would tell me your

role

, not your

alignment

and your

role

isn't indicative of your

alignment

.

If my "role" is Miller, then at least you need to try to get on the scum Miller bandwagon as a case.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that role has happened...less than five times in the entire history of this site.
So, yes, that would actually be a pretty solid lead on my alignment unless we wish to be pedantic.

A faction cop - is basically just a cop for their respective multiball faction - and I'm unclear whether this would play out the same result as a regular cop for a miller of that faction.

A faction cop identifies faction, last I checked. If you meant simply 'town or scum aligned cop' then I will agree, since that is a regular cop, it would not be of much help.

A tracker and follower - both could confirm that you targetted someone, which could easily be avoided by inviting everyone to target you tonight and

not targetting anyone tonight

.

Which still fails to prevent them from being able to learn about my alignment.

A flavor cop - wouldn't help even if you were forced to claim as it gives us your flavor name, which doesn't prove your

alignment

.

Since I said as much, yes, I agree.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was this sarcasm, too? Well damn, I keep missing it in text. How derp of me.

So, when I said I was a Miller...who could still be investigated by oother means, thus making me like an Innocent Child...you took that as;
Claim: Innocent Child Miller!
And you also didn't request me to use my Innocent Child power?
...
...
...
Whut?
Can you walk me through that again?
This question isn't sarcasm - your point just totally leaves me confused as to what you're saying because you can't be serious and you sound like you're rebutting me, which you painfully aren't.

[Thor665]

That I'm voting with my gut - and plainly saying that I'm voting with my gut and state the reasons why it pinged my gut? Or that I'm going on what makes me

feel

like you are scum as opposed to very obvious scumtells - which you point out won't happen anyway because you're a scum expert - why, just look at your scum win ratio! That issue?

Well, you plainly stated you were voting with gut after I pointed out your case was meaningless dribble.
Why waste our time if this was the case?
Also, nothing you presented makes any sense as support for a gut case because none of it is scummy - so look past my (scummy) sarcasm (because, when town, I become totally non sarcastic, y'see) and look at what I said.
Then evaluate the gut and see if it still holds water.
If it does, get worried, because that is the job of the kidney.

As to the cops issue:

You basically moan that I agree with you that only one role can find me as scum.
When actually I didn't say this.
You also ignored the plethora of other roles I pointed out could find me as scum, and also how the rolecop one would force you to totally reinvent your case if it came up 'Miller'.
Meanwhile, again ignoring how if I am Scum why I would clarify how many roles my power specifically wouldn't work against...y'know, meaning that those powers are free to check me out at their leisure and I can't use a 'but...Miller!' defense on them. Making it not only a ballsy fakeclaim move if I am scum...but then an intrinsically weak one to attempt.
But, since you're running with the brain in your lower intestinal track...whatevs.
Just don't pretend there is a case or that the reason you aren't addressing my lambast of the case is because it has any merit at all and I'm fine with your stance.

Claim: Innocent Child Miller - Nope. That's me taking that as you trying to convince people that you're somehow conftown, innocent child - when you're not conftown, innocent child and can't be proven conftown innocent child. K.

You are aware that Innocent Child is a PR and that you have agreed that you didn't think I was claiming it...and then whined that I claimed it...right?

If the extent of your issue is that I claimed I was conf. town...that's at least vaguely defensible because people d seem to take issue with that...even though I wasn't aware I had mind control powers based on whatever I wrote, but that has nothing to do with an Innocent Child claim...right?

Can we please have more votes on KKB... do not like the disappearing act in addition

...he's on v/la?

he has been prodded

And was still on v/la...right?
It is weaksauce to have lurk/lack of posts as a prime angle of attack if the target is on v/la, yes?

plz tell us moar about your butthurt thor cos it never ever gets old and I never ever get tired of hearing about it ever.

Quite claiming to have meta awareness of me and I will. :shrug: I mean, can you even link a game that shows you have ever read me correctly or insightfully?

anyways, I was thinking about you today at work and I am thinking that it would be unlike you to claim miller as scum. it is a cheap way to play and I guess I think you would find it unsavory mebbe? not sure if that is right word or not.

I can think of no reason to think I would consider anything beneath me to win as scum.
I've got a link in my sig because I based sig bet around someone flipping scum when I was scum. I wear it with pride.
I'm pretty sure there's even a game that finished in the last few months were I *specifically* said I'd consider a Miller claim out the gate for a lulz win because site meta is to auto-trust the Miller.
But, I'm sure I'm just being "butthurt" and you can read me like a book.

Syry and I talked quite a bit in the neighborhood last night; I feel pretty comfortable calling him town.

Care to share some of the insights that led to that?

If you say that last line while tripping over, it rhymes.

You could have just gone with 'Jolly' I thought the bad rhyme was the joke.

I'm not really sure. I'd love it if someone more familiar could tell me how Thor plays scum.

That would amuse me too.

other people who are pretty much 100% town that not every1 may be ion the same page about: benmage, peacebringer.

I can see an argument for Benmage.
What's the Peacebringer reasoning?

i still feel real bad abt elle but theres some okay stuff in thhere

I think she's kind of bleeding newb town.
Nothing she posts makes sense, but she pretty stridently seems to believe it does, and also isn't scared to fight for those beliefs.
I don't plan to sheep her anytime this century, but think you owe her a stronger town read than you're giving her.
Especially if you think Benny is more town than her.

Thor, do you want to explain to me why you're trying to lynch Alfred?

You found my presented reasoning eventually.
To answer your question - yes, it's basically that his reads and actions don't mesh well.

[Thor665]

I will admit if Safety flips scum, after that last post I'd be game to lynch the Nacho/Elli hydra.

[Thor665]

Do they? I've never seen it discussed, personally.

I don't see why you have issue with me using the slip as a connective tell in regards to the defense from it but aren't saying much to the people voting players based off it.
Or is your theory that I'm Safety's scumbuddy and this is a desperate attempt to get some good from his fast approaching lynch?
Because neither stance seems that well reasoned and I sort of feel like you're being belligerent for the sake of belligerence...what's your angle here?

[Thor665]

There's 2 people voting off it... not very impressed with it either.. but why the Deflection?
-As for theory, I know as scum I love drawing town connections to my scum partners, so yeah if a flip does happen you can paint someone else negatively.
--Especially since its Smurfy reasoning to suspect Safety, but if Safety does flip scum for other reasoning... trying to draw this as a connective tell is simply Smurf.

Well...I did the deflection because I think it is a quite reasonable question. I had committed the least "crime" of your stated issue...yet was the only one attacked. Why not just answer why this was as opposed to deflecting my question by accusing me of deflection

Functionally you just did as much connection between me and him as I did between Nacho and him...so why is what I did an issue?

I agree that I don't like the case...that said, my connective tell was not based on the name thing, rather it was based on their reaction to the name thing. I made that fairly clear I thought. Does your issue with me work with that, or are you taking my stance as totally different?

[Thor665]

@ thor

okay fine I can't meta you blah blah blah are you freaking happy now. I will just make up reasons from now and get creative with them that way they will make sense to you..

That would be vastly preferable to the current method of making up things and then claiming they're my play style.

[Thor665]

Okay, leaning more town on Alfred thanks to this head, that said...

@Alfred - do you seriously expect me to read your heads separate? You are one slot, if one head does scummy things than both heads are scummy.

@Shadoweh as far as your "baa aw" about me debating game theory instead of doing other stuff...please note the cases on me are based on game theory, and people are complaining when I summarize and shorten answers. So...kinda a derp issue to have with me, yeah?

@Elle I listed multiple investigative roles that could get info from me free of Miller effect, thus vastly narrowing my advantage of claiming Miller...you are now claiming I am doing this for some sort of advantage in *fooling* PRs into investigating me when their powers will work normally but won't clear me...how incredibly dense do you believe all of the other players here are? Because that is a scum plan based on people being raging idiots.

[Thor665]

And caught up.

Unvote: Andrew
Vote: Amrun

[Thor665]

So...policy lynch today then, huh?
Because if it isn't I missed the thing he did that as scummy.
I have him as nullish newb read at the moment.

Am I missing something?

[Thor665]

@PB - I was going off what I had seen. Could you maybe quote me a post of him "trying too hard"? Also, did you look at any town games of his to make sure it's a scum tell and not you reading him wrong?

@Goat - you seem to ding him both for not caring about why someone did something and also caring why someone did something. I sort of see some hypocrisy value there...or dissonance, whatever the right buzz word is...but your approach feels strained, like it is battling for things to call him scummy over, just me?

Also, do either of you have a read on Amrun?
I feel like more will be learned there than SM under pressure where...shock, he will continue to flail and not make much sense regardless.

[Thor665]

To clarify the above - the dissonance is a ding on SM.
The strain is on Goat.

[Thor665]

@Goat - your last link is kvetching that he is asking for clarification and thoughts from someone.

@PB - that is awesome he does it as scum...that isn't what I asked though. Does he NOT do it as town? That is what will make it a scum tell.

[Thor665]

Oh, sure, but only because the setup was already conveniently there from Zdenek's language, which is pretty benign. It's a harmless, no-cost question and one that I don't think requires any level of actually caring about the answer to ask (indeed, the fact that we can see him not caring earlier implies that he still doesn't care this time, he just wanted to be seen to ask).

So you think he's scum capable of asking lazy interest questions, but was unable to ask lazy interest questions in his first push...I dunno, that still feels ganky to me.
I agree with you that both individual moments can be looked upon as scummy, but I feel the combination of them weakens the overall scum case.
Basically, he is either a scum who will do lazy questions, or a scum who won't care to ask questions...the combo...feels forced. If he is scum I don't think he's scum for the case you're pushing there and it feels like you're trying to overamp the case because you're scum, or it feels like you're town who has started to tunnel.
Want to try to adjust either of those or explain why I'm wrong here?

Thor- the tone is different then the completed town game

Can you link the completed town game for the lazy amongst us, and maybe explain the tonal difference?
I'm pretty sure I was in a game with him where he was town and I don't feel a difference yet, albeit I haven't seen much from him, but besides him acting polite (like Tierce is noting) I don't see anything really clicking as different to me. Help clue me in here, your case needs sheep, so you need to herd if you believe in it at all.

I do not do all the stuff folks here do.

I guage by reactions, tones and other elements that I will not explain

. Some I really cannot even fully put to words anyway as it is a general sense. Here, he comes off as forced. That is my reaction

We already have Mollie in this game...
Hint: it's not pro-town when she does it either.
Additional Hint: when a scumhunting "style" is described as "unexplainable" I always translate that to "illogical and should be ignored because they're making gak up and lack the grapefruits to just say so either to others, and possibly themselves."

Not

that

new. Newer than most people here, sure, but don't use that as an excuse. With that said, I believe that slot is Town, but the over-politeness is somewhat concerning.

Why call him town and ding him again on the over politeness?
I actually agree that it is weird coming from him, and also agree some of the people handing you pro-town oomph are being odd in general as I haven't seen anything of the sort yet.
I feel like this post is exceedingly fence-sitty and now support the idea of lynching you.
Whassup?

[Thor665]

So I can't be wary and want to be damn sure of who I call Town, especially in a game that is likely multiball and probably has something like 6-8 scum? Good to know. ^__^

If I said that it would be sorta odd, wouldn't it? Good thing I didn't.
Don't you have issue with me "misrepping" all the time? What do you call this? I don't call it a misrep, i call it an extreme take of a conclusion drawn from what I said...but ten I think that's fine to do in a game in order to see reactions from it. What's your call on this strategy, and if it's not what you're doing here...what are you doing here?

The things he is hitting seem Town. The way he's going at it seems too overly cautious/polite.

This worries me

. But I guess you can't see it~

I can understand if it worries you. But why defend him and then condone him?
If you're unsure of him...why defend?
If you want to defend...why condone?
If your read is truly mixed, why jump into the conversation with "as regards this point you raised that no one asked me about...I have no idea at all!"
I hav no idea or opinion about stuff *all the time*. I don't share it with everyone.
What it felt like was a defense post with an excuse to vote later built it - hence fence-sitty.
Do you not see fence-sitting as scummy...or do you not think what you did was fence sitting - clarify either way pl0x!

[Thor665]

Oh, and as for inability to read you...i wasn't aware I ever claimed to be good at it. So...sure?

[Thor665]

You're accusing me of scummy fencesitting for voicing that indecision. So no, I am not misrepresenting your position, because even if you did not word it that way on the first line, the whole post had certainly implied it, as you "now support a lynch" on me for voicing doubts on a Townread.

You might not share things with everyone all the time. Neither do I, but I

do

like to discuss them from time to time--and doesn't it seem like a logical thing to do

when you're not sure

?

WHy not ask a question about your read then, try to start a dialogue about it?
You didn't feel like you were questing for truth - you felt like you were setting yourself up to come down (pardon the extension of the allusion) on either side of the fence as needed.

I was already looking for word from StupendousMan, so that beautifully-styled fence of mine is older than you think and you didn't seem to have a problem with it then.

I'll guess it was because it was made as an accusation or question, as opposed to a defense post with a 'but' attached.
You can quote it if you want to prove me wrong, but I suspect I'm right.

[Thor665]

In what capacity did I not answer your question?

You still haven't explained why I, a person you assumed was attacking over the slip, got attacked whilst two other players who specifically were attacking over the slip were not.

-I wholly disagree with your drastic conclusion that what you said and what I said are anywhere near similar.
As far as I was concerned, you connected a "slip" as a scum read, and wanted to lynch the person the slip is about as the next lynch if the first were to flip scum. I said the first may flip scum, but such a flip would have no reflection upon the second person, whom you wanted to see hung.... Whats the word...

'lining up lynches'

if you will.

Which is nothing like you saying that I'm lining up lynches does with your read of me if he flips scum?
It's the same sort of thing except you're using a different weak connection than the one you feel I'm using.
I don't think either is intrinsically scummy - but the double standard from you is.
What am I missing here?

So since I seem to be confused by which connective tell you were using, please quote for me the Naut post you had issues with, and break down why this gave you a connective scum tell for me... as if I were a 5 year old (I simply hate ambiguity, see above confusion). Thank you.

I didn't connect them to you - what are you talking about?
I did say you connected us to them...is that what you mean? For that - you did it yourself, so I have no idea why you need me to quote it.

As far as the post I had issues with, it was Posts 834-835 on this page; http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=825
The way both of them denied it in weaksauce ways wherein one was like "But Elli hasn't even been in the QT" which is not a defense, and the guy who *did* nameslip about Elli points out he has only ever played with Elli once, which seems to strengthen the value of the slip tell, not weaken it/ Both were too worked up over it, making me feel there is something there.

@Goat - if you want a good wagon, the Amrun one is right here for you. Why avoid it in favor of Safety?

@Chephir - you keep harping on the cherry pick and now bring up that I did the worst ones first...um...was my response to the 2nd set you demanded that hard? Both you (and her) even admitted the points I hadn't addressed were weak and silly, so...where are you coming from suggesting I avoided the tough ones? Can you support that claim?

Desp is winning the debate with Ceph easily.
Frankly he's re convincing me that Ceph needs death.

I like the Zdenek slot more now than I did - move it to nullish.

@Mollie - he did replace out for that, and I actually don't even think it was that rude on my part. Maybe I'm a total jerk and can't tell, but I personally think I hit too close to home and that's why he reacted so strongly. Draw your own conclusions. It's still pretty clear that a scumhunting style that can't be explained lacks logic - that's pretty much the definition of a method that can't be explained.

You're wrong about Alfred also - look at his defense and reasoning to clear Benmage. That's pretty amazing scum play if he's scum. (well, I guess the could be buddies...but then it's really ballsy scumplay, so same reasoning to call him townish)

@Tammy - so...discussing reads makes him town? Isn't that sort of scum 101 in a Neighborhood?

As a general note, I will add that I don't think Former has a clear handle on my meta, nor on how it shifts from a Newbie mini to an experienced Large.
He's still 'right' but for wrong reasons.
I'll actually slide Messiah into my slightly scum pile for it too, simply because I would expect Former to be a bit more inherently paranoid. This level of trust feels off.

[Thor665]

@Chephir - you keep harping on the cherry pick and now bring up that I did the worst ones first...um...was my response to the 2nd set you demanded that hard? Both you (and her) even admitted the points I hadn't addressed were weak and silly, so...where are you coming from suggesting I avoided the tough ones? Can you support that claim?

Yes, after I bothered you about it. I only keep bringing it up because people keep poking me about it.

I don't think that answers the question I asked.
I asked for support that what I "dodged" was the "hard stuff" because my first reply only addressed her "bad points".
I don't think that's a statement that can be remotely backed up considering what both you and her said about the "hard stuff" after I did address it.
Can you support the claim?

[Thor665]

He wants you to explain why you didn't like his attack on me, but were okay with Benmage's attack on me.
As in: why is one objectionable, and the other is not.

[Thor665]

Oh, there's also now a built up wall of 'Kanye don't explain jack!' built in, hence the quote nesting.

[Thor665]

If I wanted to listen to you "catch" him over something I was able to figure out in two seconds by clicking the link in his question to learn, I'd feel bad.

[Thor665]

I mean, even by what he's saying he clearly understands his original point - so at that stage what were you going to catch him on?
Making him explain what selective scumhunting means or something?

Just answer the question that he clearly understands and let's move on.

[Thor665]

That makes even less sense since the only way I'm scum is if I'm scum defending scumbuddy Zdenek, and your concept of Zdenek scum is that he's scum for attacking me for my claim in a scummy way.

[Thor665]

you sure jammed a bunch of assumptions into 1 sentence!

If you don't want assumptions made about your votes then explain them.
Otherwise I'm going to be over here conjecturing

[Thor665]

That makes even less sense since the only way I'm scum is if I'm scum defending scumbuddy Zdenek, and your concept of Zdenek scum is that he's scum for attacking me for my claim in a scummy way.

So the only way for you to be scum is defending Zdenek.... Why couldn't you be scum for just saying something scummy?

Look at his past read of me, then his exchange here, and then his vote, and feel free to tell me the oddly scummy thing I did.
Sure, it might have happened like that - but it doesn't look that way, so I'm going with the more likely explanation until he tells me otherwise.

[Thor665]

I don't think you were a jerk but no one likes to be dismissed but you are scum so mebbe he doesn't understand that is what you are supposed to do. also I cannot logically explain how my microwave works it doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

If you built the microwave this would matter. Let me know if you did.
A microwave can be explained logically.

I don't even understand what you are saying here.

His defense of Benmage looks like town.
Make sense?
I'm not sure what's confusing you.

[Thor665]

@Mollie

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fucking-m ... -they-work

[Thor665]

@Mollie

1. Um...because logic helps try to force the scum to work harder to deceive because they're forced to present a logical model for what they're pretending to do as town? I think that's a big part of it. Also, i wasn't aware that just because someone is lying it precludes the ability for logic to find them out, someone needs to tell Sherlock Holmes this.

2. Yes. All scum and town tells accept certain preconceptions in their application, it's how they work. Do you think he's good enough as scum to work up that clearing case on benmage for town points and *also* succumb to whatever scumtell he committed for you to catch him?

3. Rainbows, how do those work?

[Thor665]

@ thor

1. town is capable of subterfuge too. and often does. is that the axis you are spinning from? that only scum do this? I think not, you are too experienced for that.
2. I have no idea what he is capable of, why the wking?
3. refracted sunlight

1. Nothing I said indicated that.
2. ...um, I am defending him because of the reasons I have already described to you for thinking he is town? If you have no idea what he is capable of why not just accept the defense and move on or do something t educate yourself?

[Thor665]

1. you are right. how am I supposed to lay hyperbolic traps if you keep evading them? it doesn't make you town tho it just makes you nimble.
2. cos I think he is scummy.

1. It didn't require much nimbleness. Next time try asking me if I'm scum, that's an equally brilliant scumhunting question, and just as likely to catch people unaware as making up stuff they said and not expecting them to realize it.

2. And then I'll ask 'why' and then you'll say 'cause it can't be explained' and I'll combine that with your refusal to do any work on your case or to try to understand other people's work and my opinion of your play shall remain the same.

yabbut your premise is based on that alfred is not that good of a scum player or he and benny are scummates?

you never adequately addressed this.

Clarify the question then?
Because I certainly responded to it - if I didn't answer what you wanted me to it's on you to clarify what further info you need - I'm not going to psychically rip the info from your head since I use all of that power to control people's thoughts so they believe whatever I say even if it seems to be a joke.

[Thor665]

This game is still annoying me, I am collecting quite a few town reads from people, but I am having trouble finding scumreads. And all the wordswordswords are boring. I feel like it's 2008 all over again in this game.

I have no idea why so many people are posting this commentary as though it's a bad thing.

[Thor665]

Ugly face?

[Thor665]

In what capacity did I not answer your question?

You still haven't explained why I, a person you assumed was attacking over the slip, got attacked whilst two other players who specifically were attacking over the slip were not.

Incorrect.

I attacked you for trying to tie connections to a "slip".. not for believing the slip itself, or attacking the person for whom made the supposed slip.

Um...that's *exactly* what they're doing, except they're buying into it enough to vote, and I'm only buying into it enough to agree that if he flips scum I'd want to lynch the other one.
So...whut?
Are you faking dense to get a reaction from me or something? Because this is pretty dense. Like, Mollie levels

My desire to see you lynched, does not revolve around the flipping of someone else, or first, or anything of that matter. Whereas you’re assertion required the first person to flip scum, and then desired the second lynched via your connective tell.

So then it had nothing to do with me being scumbuddies with him, it was just 'anyone who draws alignment connections between two players needs to be lynched because that's inherently scummy'?
Which...again begs why I was singled out of the three players doing it (on this tell alone, much less others doing it throughout the game).

-I didn't say you connecting anything to me, what are you talking about?

and break down why this gave you a connective scum tell for me

In retrospect I misread this as 'gave you a connective scumtell for me' to mean not the intended 'explain it to me' but rather 'explain why it connected to me'

-I connected what to you? You said, following the slip that you wanted to lynch Nautilus pending a scum flip. NOONE ELSE MADE THIS CONNECTION.

Then what is the "slip" case the other people are using based on if not Ellibereth being scum?

HENCE I SAID YOU were lining up lynches. While those players may have drawn those conclusions later, who knows... you JUMPED at it to connect Naut. Hence I disliked your connection, because slip or no that person might flip scum. And like I said when I'm scum, drawing connections between town players to my scum partners is a 1-0-1 move.

Okay...town also do this. That's how you connect scumbuddies. You don't hunt each scum individually - you look for connections after scum have flipped.
That's how the game is played.

The circular-ness of this is baffling… I feel like you’re just trying to dance around the issue, and be purposely dense.

I feel the same way, it's why I keep trying to explain stuff as opposed to just calling you derp repeatedly.

You Tried connecting Naut, or lined up lynches, how ever you want to word it to someone who might flip scum for some bullshit “slip”. Period.

Yes - I have never denied this. I just don't grok how it is more scummy than other people, or even how it is scummy in the first place.

You are scum.

For the crime of looking for possible connections pending a flip I don't support making on the evidence of the connection...riiiiight.

[Thor665]

Also, something else just occured to me - you claim there is no connection element to your case...but then claim what I'm doing is scummy because I'm lining up a lynch based on a scum flip that will happen...which REQUIRES me to know that will be a scum flip, hence I need to be scumbuddies with him to be scum perpetrating the plan you claim I'm perpetrating.

Justify this now pl0x.

[Thor665]

also is this the second or third time you have misrepped my play here I cannot remember

I know you and Tierce use different definition than I do.
But I see no misrep from him to you.
You need a different knee jerk defense.

[Thor665]

@Garruk - If Amrun is your only scum read...why no vote on her? I'm here and alone.

I'm neutral on the Ooba push.
I'd support a Ceph push if people want to go back to that, the Amrun push is getting no love.
The Shadoweh push is bad.

[Thor665]

Do you think Ceph is town?
WOuld you support a push on him? Why/why not?

[Thor665]

So you're fence sitting.

Not that I'm aware of, I cited a specific instance and what I would do because of it, and noted my supporting evidence. If you can describe the opinion I'm fence-sitting that might help me respond to the accusation - but I'm pretty sure you're flat out wrong and just slinging mud in an exasperated whine now.

You still really havn't addressed how the two players who are making the same connection I am making, yet moreso, didn't get attacked.
Unless the reason is now that I was being 'fencey' and thus am more scummy for that...?

But you Publicly stated If X (safetydance) flips scum Lynch Y(naut)... For what appeared to be just some Smurf "slip"... not what you now claim to be their responses.

No?
Because in the very post I said that I specifically included the commentary about their responses.
Quote it and try to bold that - if you can't find it I'll do so for you.
But this is really bad and weaksauce.
What the heck?
At least I have faith you didn't go back and look at the quote, because claiming this is provably wrong, so you honestly believed this gak was right...meh, not even alignment helpful though.

(which is still meh reasoning. You didn't like their explanations.. He mad a human error... but you jump to the scum, verse being a

humen

...because such misnomers don't occur in every game )

I specifically explained when you asked why I saw the slip as less likely to be accidental since he admited only ever playing one game with Elli, thus making it seem to me a less likely slip to make due to human error - but it is apparent that I considered that aspect.

I don't have an issue with drawing scum connections, albeit its not the smartest thing to do D1.

But yes, I think it possible you're scum looking to tie Naut to a scum buddy of yours, whenever he may flip you can on some future day go

yayayaya the slip too! zomg he is scum zomg lynch lynch

.

Which is, again, a scum connection, and continually begs the question why we're having this debate.
it's either you being pissy or you being scum...or possibly both.
none of it is very helpful - are you getting somewhere with all of this?
Because I feel like someone is throwing feather pillows at me screaming 'Burn you Fool!' and acting like it's relevant.

[Thor665]

I'm also resisting the urge to answer what kanye is doing for mollie so that kanye can show the amazing scumhunting about to be unleashed.

But it just looks like people wasting time because they aren't clarifying what they're doing and want to make it slow and painful.

[Thor665]

do you actually think i didnt know exactly what zed meant when i asked that question? do you think that poorly of me tbird?

You, apparently, think that poorly of Zdenek...

[Thor665]

I have said I'm not impressed with either of their votes... whats there to s.p.e.l.l. out?

Why you attacked me over it and didn't mention them till i specifically asked you about them.
Which, incidentally, is what I keep asking you about and you keep not answering.

-Fence-sitting insofar as you believe the "slip" presumably existed, that connected these two players together, then continued the connection via their responses... then allocated that if the first flips scum, you're down to lynch second... concluding that there must be overwhelming connective evidence, eliminating the possibility of chance that the first person was simply just scum. YET you didn't vote. I.E. Fence-sitting.

No...
That is 'if he's scum i don't think he's scum for those reasons he is being voted. that said, I think there is connective evidence so if he does flip scum i would be interested in lynching the other half of the connection.'
I agreed the connection was there.
I didn't agree it was a scum case.

Ya, put it down chronologically for me.

He committed the slip.
People voted him for it.
He and Nacho defended from the slip.
I said 'if he does flip scum, I would support lynching Nacho/Elli due to how bad those reactions were'
You attacked me.
I asked you about them.
You claimed I had made up the 'response' reasoning after the fact - even though it was in the very post you attacked me over'
I called you silly.
You demanded a timeline.

Present day.

What's your timeline?
Quoting the post where I initially attacked him without mentioning the response posts would probably be a super strong way to prove you're right.
I await my humbling...

[Thor665]

@Garruk - so...basically one head has him as strong town and the other as some degree of scum?

Also, in case you missed it, I've been over the Benmage thing for some time - but unlike some players I don't think the way to deal with disagreement is to refuse to interact. Besides, since I'm sure I'm right I can slowly grind him into dust and sneer at him later. I don't think you actually are reading the exchange, and your take on it feels incredibly superficial and lacking any actual reasoning behind it - feels faked...why is that?

[Thor665]

I'm neutral on the wagon.
I'd compromise for him - but I think there are better lynches available.
I've said this already.

[Thor665]

Also, Thor should answer M&M's question.

And as I just told her - I'd already, and without prompting, offered my views on the wagon *today* (or late last night, I'm working splits so I'll admit my internal clock is off) But...seriously, what the hell people?
Read.
Moar.

[Thor665]

Stop separating them.

[Thor665]

I mean, if I thought he was town I'd call the wagon bad.
If I thought he was scummy I'd be pleased by the wagon and would be voting it already.
If I thought a specific poster or two or three had bad votes I'd call them out specifically.

[Thor665]

@ thor

if you are unsure about him then just say you are unsure

...I called him neutral.
Then i called him neutral again.
Then i clarified that he was neutral.
Now you are chiding me for not stating that my read on him wasn't a town or scum vibe...whut?

it would be refreshing to witness a humble thor say he did not know everything instead of feeding this fencesitting jargon that you would never accept from another player if you were town

Whut?

wat. is. your. read. on. ooba.

N.E.U.T.R.A.L.
Which part of the word do you fail to grok?

[Thor665]

Null.
Midland.
Indifferent.
So-so.
Middle of the road.

[Thor665]

Lacking a strong read upon.
Willing to compromise on.
In stronger favor of others I have named.
Prefer to lynch other targets.
Not opposing his lynch because I do not see him as town.
Not supporting it because I do not see him as scum.

[Thor665]

Neutral?

[Thor665]

I'm neutral on the wagon.
I'd compromise for him - but I think there are better lynches available.
I've said this already.

[Thor665]

I may be down with the ooba lulz wagon, but I'll admit the copping to the misrep actually feels townish. Ooba is certainly skilled enough that might be a feint to the growing pressure...but my gut kind of says town on that one too, so I think we can do better.

[Thor665]

I'm neutral on the Ooba push.

[Thor665]

What the SMURF is my read on Ooba!?!?!

[Thor665]

@Thor

who are your current top 3 scum reads/top 3 town reads... maybe a bullet why to please.

@Garruk - If Amrun is your only scum read...why no vote on her? I'm here and alone.

I'm neutral on the Ooba push.
I'd support a Ceph push if people want to go back to that, the Amrun push is getting no love.
The Shadoweh push is bad.

Hey, look, top two - Ceph and Amrun.
I also call Shadoweh town here and I've called Elle town - so let's call them my top two.
I also called Alfred town.

[Thor665]

And the quoted post was made in the ancient days of *this morning*
When Thor wasn't addressing his reads.
Good catch, Benny.

[Thor665]

@Mollie - a "meltdown" isn't a scum tell when I am trying to explain reality to someone too dense to notice it who is also saying that "neutral" is not a read...somehow... I wonder if Syr will get you to notice reality? I wonder if I will be called on misrepping you. Oh gads, seriously, whut?

@AGar - a Day 1 lynchbait? Are you serious? Look at the player list, we don't need to be limiting ourself to culling at this stage and it seems silly to choose to do so. Neither of them are being pro town, which is the basic impetus of your Ooba push, but add in Amrun's awkward defense of me or Ceph's aggressive refusal to actually look at motivation and I think they both look worse objectively.

[Thor665]

I am neutral on Mollie's ability to read time/date stamps.

This is not actually an opinion about her.
Apparently...

[Thor665]

I apparently don't.
Also, I don't feel you're doing what you want me to believe you are doing.

[Thor665]

I just want to get something straight tho, you are going to insist that I can't read you and then....get upset when I can't read you?

Um...there's a bit of a difference between read me "discern my alignment and grok my meta" and read me "understand the written word"
I don't think you can do the former...I, up until recently, thought you could do the latter.

what you said was that you were neutral on ooba's wagon when I asked you about ooba the player

ooba /= ooba's wagon

Tierce is now a scumread of mine.
Kanye is now a town read.

If they had wagons on them then I would be passing no judgement on people voting my townread or not voting my scum read by saying this.
Go figure.

[Thor665]

I am pretty sure you never thought the former was true since I think you have accused me of it in nearly every game we have played together whenever I have disagreed with you.

Good job proving my point about the latter.

having said that, I nearly want to weep with relief that you think tierce might be scum cos I have been having the same thoughts for a good bit and if tierce is scum then most likely so is nacho plz don't argue just entertain the idea for a minute.

I took it to a ballpark.
What's the connection between them?

I am moving you back to the town pile don't freaking argue just accept it even if it is cos there was a face in my cheerios that might have looked like the mona lisa the read is still valid if it is right.

A conclusion being right does not prove the methodology used to reach it being valid.

[Thor665]

I see that as valid logic why Tierce looks scummy.
It is based on a lot of assumptions to drag Nacho into the mix though.

[Thor665]

I random news - I nominate displaced for inclusion in the Vig/SK who wants to pretend to be Vig pool.

[Thor665]

I reeeeeeeally don't like Ceph's last post. "sorry I didn't agree with you guyyyys" doesn't seem terribly townish to me.

Vote him then, I'll sheep you.

[Thor665]

Kanye these last three pages is pretty crazy town. Sorry I couldn't see that before.

You also were clearly not directing that at Kanye either.
So...

[Thor665]

Yes, it is not possible I was addressing those sentences to two different targets.

R U srs?

[Thor665]

If we just insert the comma his comment makes sense.
...except that he then indicated it was directed at multiple people...?

I mean; Kanye, these last three pages is pretty crazy town. Sorry I couldn't see that before.

That works and makes sense if it's all directed at Kanye and all it says is he dun lrn commas gud. Big whoop.
But when he claims the sentence was directed to two different people...who the heck was the second one?

@Ceph - who was the second person?
Because even if I buy the first sentence was to Kanye, then, if the second sentence wasn't...then it looks like a toss out to everyone and then Quadz's point holds water and why did you growl at him for saying it?
And if the second sentence was directed at Kanye as well, and you deserved to growl at Quadz, then why did you lie to me and claim it was directed to someone else?

[Thor665]

Nah, it's not a comma issue. The second sentence is directed to Kanye. The first is not.

And any century now you'll do what I am am clearly driving for, and tell me who it was directed to.
I'll wait, this might take some time because people here like to answer half questions, then get more specific questions, then question them, then get more specific questions, all because they're scared of something.
I don't know what - I suppose it's fear of looking scummy.
But seriously people - stop wasting my time and pretending it's because you're clever.
Also, stop being scared, it twings my scumdar in addition to annoying me.

[Thor665]

I dunno - how was I supposed to phrase that question for you to not only clarify that the second sentece was to Kanye, not the first, but to then also make the brilliant and helpful leap of providing info to just ruddy answer who both sentences were directed at since that was *blatantly* what I was asking?

hell, it's what Quadz asked and you decided to dance and play games with him too - creating a ruddy new page on this when it should have alreayd moved into the debate of if it *MEANT* anything rather than a prolonged effort just to ruddy gather the base facts!

[Thor665]

It doesn't look like an apology.

Ceph has called it an apology.
Elsewhere in reality...

[Thor665]

It was an agreement with a sentiment that had just been expressed by several others, including you, mollie and Garruk.

If this is all true, you are horrible at grammar.
I don't find it an increase in your scumminess though.
I do find your dodginess to bug me, but that's hardly new this game so you can join Kanye and Mollie in the great pool of 'let's be obtuse and call it strategy'
Still want to lynch you.

[Thor665]

Also, Thor... I asked a preeeeetty specific question in #1252. And you didn't answer it. You give me a sad. (Yes, I re-read Ceph, no I don't like it for lynching. No, I haven't re-read Amrun just yet, yes that's next on the list.)

Yes, you asked me a question, I responded here;

@AGar - a Day 1 lynchbait? Are you serious? Look at the player list, we don't need to be limiting ourself to culling at this stage and it seems silly to choose to do so. Neither of them are being pro town, which is the basic impetus of your Ooba push, but add in Amrun's awkward defense of me or Ceph's aggressive refusal to actually look at motivation and I think they both look worse objectively.

The other part of your question was "I refuse to lynch either of your scumreads (because I don't consider them lynchbait worthy on Day 1...which is a meaningless answer to their scumminess) - who else should we lynch?" Which...is not really a question I can answer functionally.
Hey, AGar, I refuse to lynch anyone you think is scum - who should we lynch? All that is going to get is you randomly picking some meh null read and...what, trying to act excited about that as a compromise lynch wagon of 2?
No.
Also, functionally, I had asked you to defend your position that I disagreed with, and you didn't - making *you* the one breaking the conversation chain (and, indeed, trying to go backwards in it) So...whut?

thor since when have you ever thought any of my logic was valid? name 1 other time in a game that you ever thought that something I said was valid or had anything to do with logic much less have any merit to it?

In my very next sentence after the one you are freaking out about, I said you had no logic with what you were saying.
So I said you had a good setup, and then were trying to sell me on something with no logic.
And now I'm scum because I don't think you lack logic...even if that WAS a tell on me, I plainly didn't do it, so...?

oh

oh my god

you

literally

just said "you don't think I'm a complete moron, therefore you are scum."

That is par for the course with her for cases - it's actually not really any worse than the logic she used to call Nacho scum "he's able to read Tierce, and Tierce is acting scummy towards him, ergo they are scum buddies...I will ignore that maybe he's acting neutral towards her because he doesn't think she is acting scummy...oh, look, he even clarified why he thinks I'm reading her play wrong...watch how I ignore that conversation as well...yay!"

[Thor665]

Benmage actually seems to be playing worse than Mollie in this game.
That is sad.

[Thor665]

Brilliant rebuttal of my position.

[Thor665]

thor since when have you ever thought any of my logic was valid? name 1 other time in a game that you ever thought that something I said was valid or had anything to do with logic much less have any merit to it? in fact that is the whole reason as to why you always want to pl me and why we fight it is cos you say you can never understand a single thing I say. you're scum aren't you? oh god that is why you have been so civil isn't it?

I already responded to this.
If you're derp enough to still think it is a scumtell than parade on, I don't care enough to bother looking through games for points I did or didn't mock your logic.

[Thor665]

Thor: "putting it succinctly" requires something to be "put". His actual vote, sure, it's short. His explanations are in big piles of Thorness, most of which are over this head's personal can-I-be-arsed-to-read-it post length.

Welcome to my life.
I do love how apparently in the online forum environment 'reading' is considered a hassle though.

Benmage actually seems to be playing worse than Mollie in this game.
That is sad.

Why are you voting Amrun?

Overreactive defensiveness of me to Benmage considering an otherwise sedate playstyle (that she was called on and defended as what she was doing in this game).
Pair that up with getting really annoyed when I asked her about it.

Why *aren't* you voting Amrun?

Gah, I never condensed my fucking posts.

I loathe when that happens.

Ok I'm gonna break this one down because somewhere we've had a communication breakdown. (Paraphrasing)

Post #1252 I say "Thor, you don't like Ooba-lynch. I don't like Amrun/Ceph for D1 lynchbait (because that's what I feel they are, just lynchbait and bad wagons) so what else ya got."
Post #1261/1262 (double post whee!) I lay out my case against Ooba for someone else.
Post #1269 you question "lynchbait" and then say you find Amrun/Ceph objectively worse than Ooba.
Post #1321 I say I got townleanings on both of them, but that was during a 24h 46 page reading binge so I'd re-read them (I didn't get to Amrun last night, instead had personal affairs to tend to).
Post #1355 I ask you answer my question of other options in #1252
Post #1378 is quoted above.

(1.)

- You never actually gave me anything else to work with. Clearly we're not going to agree on D1 wagons here, which happens, but to say you answered my question when you functionally didn't and then go on the offensive is really just off kilter here.

(2.)

- You also never actually asked me to defend my position, although had you, you should have realized I had already entrenched my Ooba read several posts beforehand to gather some steam on that wagon.

I agree with your timeline.

1. Pot meet kettle? Yeah, i never gave an alternate and I *told you* why I didn't. You know who else didn't offer a compromise? You didn't offer one for me...but you *did* say you'd re-look at my primes, so me then waiting to see where you fell on them is pretty ruddy normal I'm pretty sure. Heck, you still haven't done my primary yet. I also ent on the offensive because you did ask me for something that I had *literally responded to*. Now, go read me in iso with Mollie, and watch that mess, and then be aware of why I'm annoyed that apparently no one reads what I write and then wants to know why I haven't answered things I have answered. I'll admit maybe you got worse than you deserved because at least there is vague justification for your point - but I did answer your question, just not the way you wanted me too.

2. I'm not actually sure what point you are making here. I'll agree that I didn't ask you for your case on Ooba...? I'm not sure the relevance of this point and do not believe I've been talking about it, so if you have then clearly this is part of our disconnect.

His votes suck, the ooba wagon is horrible.

I agree that the Ooba wagon is horrible.
So...which counterwagon should I be supporting then? The one on me? The one I openly disagree with on Stupendous? The kinda mushy Messiah one? Or should I start a wagon I like?
Oh, and look, you dislike me for doing that too.
Meh.
Derp tell is derpy.

[Thor665]

I agree that the Ooba wagon is horrible.
So...which counterwagon should I be supporting then? The one on me? The one I openly disagree with on Stupendous? The kinda mushy Messiah one? Or should I start a wagon I like?

What do you mean 'Messiah' one - there isnt a vote on him? What about Garruk?

There was one, and the Garruk one didn't appear until after the timeframe he's taking exception with.

Ok this is the main communication breakdown. I didn't take your post as asking me for an alternate, instead rather asking me to consider Amrun/Ceph (I got to the Amrun read... I'm eh about her. The V/LA makes it hard because there isn't much to work with. And Ceph has given me a big ol' "eh" feeling too with his recent posts. I could go either way on them right now). But uh, my first real post of the game said I'd also be happy lynching macmollie.

Well, you asked me to name a lynch option other than the two I was pressing or the one you were based on the logic that it 'wasn't lynchbait worthy' to lynch the two I wante to lynch, which is a pretty weak reason for me to come up with a third scumread for you in a game where people have been openly discussing issues in getting scumreads.
Also, I never asked you specifically, but if you wanted a compromise, why not offer one when I said I didn't have any?
I don't want to lynch Mollie today.
I wouldn't mind her being shot to death overnight, but I don't want to lynch her.
I'd rather Displaced were shot though - especially for him having issue with me saying he should be. Like, seriously, he thinks his contributions in thread are up to snuff at this stage? He needs death badly.

Said the guy who wouldn't read the thread.

I'm very honest about what I do or don't read, and I announce it so people are aware, i don't wait 40 pages and then indicate I haven't read Post 1 from a given player.
I'll note no one has suggested I missed anything yet, so I still think my value call there was worthwhile.

This argument is fairly town.

Says the guy not voting Amrun.

You don't seem like the type to be this passive. You don't like the ooba wagon and the current counterwagon is you, so you deduce that there's nothing you can do?

Wasn't aware I claimed that.
I did claim I wouldn't vote the Ooba wagon though...so...?

Try to start a counterwagon.

Yeah, crazy thought that.
Vote Amrun?

It's clear there isn't a ton of interest in your top choices, so pick someone else.

I pick people that are scummy, not people that are easy to run wagons on.

I'm assuming blded refers to your attempt to start a wagon on Amrun. I haven't been paying a ton of attention to your posts but I don't see what's not to like about that.

Nor do I, but people refuse to vote it.

First thing firsts looking at recent VC and 3 days to go ~ I am happy to join the Thor wagon, I agree with Benmage's 518 and D1 is the only optimal time to do so.

I'll be willing to Mjolnir you if it comes to that.

There's way more to Thor, than Policy Lynching him for Miller.

A)Miller claim
B) His auto-town assertion in his claim
C) His bullSmurfing well into the game about his claim verse being open and truth full.. we're the uniformed, we cant be playing games.
D) His repetitive deflection
E) Fence-sitting/lining up lynches.

Its a great D1 lynch if you ask me. Wayyy to many question marks surrounding that slot.

There's way more to Thor than policy lunching hm for Miller claim;

A) There's Policy Lynching him for Miller claim.
B) There's that he thought his claim was obviously pro-town and said so - the scummy bastich!
C) There's the Casso, King of the Seals nameclaim which me and one other person bought, and other people immediately told us was fake, but Thor didn't until later, and that is anti-town to make me look silly, and obviouslly served a scum agenda of distracting people...namely just me and, like, Ceph(?) I dunno, whoever else bought it.
D) His deflection...of...stuff...I'm guessing the nameclaim? I dunno.
E) Him pseudo bussing his buddy, but I won't vote the buddy, even though that's the only way this is scumplay.

Yep.
Amazing case.

[Thor665]

Let me know when you can see anything whatsoever. Your ego seems to be taking up your entire field of vision.

Still not an Amrun vote.

People usually have stronger reactions to Benmage than they should, getting annoyed seems like an emotion unless you want to pull some caught for the wrong reasons bullshit. Weak case.

Yeah, except Benmage wasn't even interacting with her.
The normal response would be 'that case is pretty derp'
Instead it was all 'I'MMA RAGE BENMAGE!' out of nowhere.
Feels like too much belief in my claim and also faked, ergo - scummy.

Why do you think it is so real?

SafetyDance seems like a pretty decent counterwagon; why aren't you on it?

I indicated willingness to hammer him.
Still more interested in seeing who goes where at this stage without me, I don't always get a large Thor wagon to analyze Day 1, it's kind of nice.

I'd rather Displaced were shot though - especially for him having issue with me saying he should be.

rich given you self admittedly need death at some point but what should i be like "yes kill me quick pplease thanks"

1. I never said I needed death.

2. I never said you should...but I do find it bewildering that you should be shocked someone else did. What was your contribution that made it odd for me to say you should be vigged?

I would love if you started a wagon you like, but you haven't done much starting, it seems. I mean, unless the case you've provided on her is a time bomb that everyone hates at first but suddenly there's gonna be this magical explosion of OH MY GOD IT'S BRILLIANT AND NOT JUST A WEAK AND LAZY CASE ON SOMEONE WHO ISN'T HERE, but I'm not optimistic about the chances of that happening.

It almost has already with Ceph and Kanye.
I grow on people, like a fungus.

I'd like to go for Macmollie instead.

I don't think you could find a worse wagon.

[/quote]
Disturbed comes to mind.
Of course he shopped that one too.

contrast that to both thor and goat people who have said "oh this game is hard to obtain reads" but aren't exhibiting the same paranoia and that is why they are both in the unsure mebbe scum pile. but thor is at least giving reads.

I never said it was hard to get reads.
I did say I didn't have a lot of scumreads - big difference.
Also, I usually save paranoia for closer to lylo, when I get paranoid and lynch my town reads.
I don't think I have ever looked paranoid Day 1-2.

Because that nets us what, exactly?

A scum lynch?

F)The continual downplaying of the Smurf he did to not make it look as scummy as it is.

F) Disagreeing that null tells are scum tells. Also, doesn't think he is scum and opposes wagon on himself, UNLIKE TOWN DO!

[Thor665]

Why is he scum?

[Thor665]

I still have never figured out the point of those sorts of posts.

[Thor665]

@ thor

ooba said the same thing about not being paranoid early on. so...noted.

And I don't find him particularly scummy right now either - so it all seems to magically gel together.

Liking Ceph is messed up.
I'm confused that you don't have a take on Shadoweh.
I think AGar looks conditionally town, though he feels soft spoken...that said it's been probably over a year since we played last so I really am qualifying that 'soft' call with flashing neon letters, that said, when he does post it looks like hunting and purpose to me, so I'm not sure why he's a nullish take for you since you wouldn't have my opinion that he should be more aggressive - what's up there?

[Thor665]

they're mostly just there to make you sad, thor

It works.

Also, @AGar
I did that thing we hate ;(

[Thor665]

Why do you think it is so real?

Before we go further, we are talking about this post, right? That was right after the point when Benmage calls you out for picking Casso with intent to receive miller, and yes, that was pretty ridiculous so I didn't have a problem with a strong reaction to it and I have no idea why you would.

I did have a strong reaction to it, so I don't have an issue with that insomuch as it was an issue between him and I.

I was just surprised at the sudden knight in white armor galloping down from the pavilion of placidness sounding the horns of war.
Literally everyone else in the game either ignored the brawl or (sadly) sheeped Benmage.
One person leapt to my support vociferously.

You don't think that deserves attention?

[Thor665]

@Bennage - a question for curiosity, you call out SD and his cheeky indifference as a town tell.
You have as a solid point in your case on me how I cheekily false claimed and was indifferent that you took it serious.
Clarify?

The wagon on me remains incredible bad, unsupported, and is being steeped by people who have no idea why they are even voting me.

Messiah looks painfully obv. Town after the last few pages.

unvote: Amrun
Vote: Ooba

I still do no think he looks like scum, but I know I am not, and the wagon on me is even worse.

[Thor665]

I

finally

managed to go through them. Thanks anyway, Tammy.


Yeah, Faraday doesn't use millers in the MS meta. Why? Because normal cops are boring stuff.

So basically either your research is bad, or you are a liar, because Tammy has claimed to be in a faraday uPick with a scumMiller.
And said so in this game.

Okay, so now you are clarifying the stance to he doesn't have "normal" Millers.
...um, that's a pretty bad reason to vote me then.
Like, seriously.

[Thor665]

elleheathen, kanyeknowsbest, Benmage, SafetyDance, Zdenek, Alfred Borden, macmollie, Garruk Relentless, Tierce, Shadoweh

So there are probably about 3 scum in this mix.
I will rule out the ones I personally think are town.

kanyeknowsbest, Benmage, Zdenek, Garruk Relentless, Tierce

Once I flip, if Vigs and whatnot could kind of focus on this group.
I give *slight* clearing to Benny because I've actually got some belief that he would be this terrible as town with a weird tunnel and, in his defense, as terrible as it is he's literally the only person voting me who has bothered to really try to make a case of it - well, Elle vaguely tried, so one of two I suppose, if you squint.

Kanye is a pain to read for me, but he has flopped around on his attitude towards me repeatedly today, and the current push came from nowhere.
Zdenek is a forerunner in the lynch for being a Miller crowd, and has done nothing to expand on that, and also could be the early scum push and make a lot of sense.
Garruk feels very taped on, I dunno, I couldn't really describe his read on much of anything and he seems to be voting repeatedly with 'need a lynch' as the only reasoning, and even seemed to semi-distance from voting me even as he got on.
Tierce tried to justify her entrance (And was called on it by Shadoweh...which was nice except that he then sheeped...I dunno, Shadoweh felt town up to this point, I'm leaving him in my townish pile) But Tierce was like 'They don't do Millers! Lynch Thor!...oh, well, okay, they do Millers, but not *normal* Millers...lynch Thor!"
Newsflash - probably no one is a clear "normal" in such an obviously theme heavy game, and that she has trampled on reality twice to justify the vote makes her look really bad.

I'd like to see Tierce or Zdenek flipped sooner rather than later pl0x.
For the record, Vig, Displaced is still an *immensely* good shot.
Just saying.

[Thor665]

Also, this is my first time as a Miller ever - and I hate you all.
You've actually taught me that it would have been more pro-town to *not* claim Miller Day 1.

[Thor665]

Because, if anyone thinks I would have been lynched sans Milelr claim (besides Benmage) they are as derpy as Benmage.

[Thor665]

That said, this game will be *awesome* for me if I ever do try a scum miller gambit, even if I don't claim Day 1, trololololol.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Ooba
Vote: Garruk

I like this better than Ooba simply due to his vote on me.

[Thor665]

@Kanye - so why were you voting me? You've done that thing again where it's like you re-wrote your reads in the space of a few hours.

[Thor665]

@Tammy - the continued grinding on the SD nugget at this stage isn't helping things. Yes, I think we all agree on a conceptual level that people who aren't playing the game kind of need to replace out or get killed.
That said, repeating it ad nauseum and getting into fights with the dude as he defends his poor play is hardly that much higher on the amazing pro-town scale, amirite?

Demand him to be vigged and move on, or wait until he does something that can be called scummy and try to get a dog pile going. Everything else just won't be helpful right now.
I (sadly) kinda buy his play as coming from a town (if not pro-town) mindset, but that still means we shouldn't lynch him and also that you have to not debate that what he's done is bad, but show how it is actually scummy to advance anything here.
And it's not going to happen even then for the rest of Day 1, pretty much assured.

@Alfred - moreso than anyone else, I'd like to get your take on what Tierce did as regards pushing my lynch last page and how she did it via the logic she presented.

[Thor665]

Thor should be advocating his own lynch at this point if he were town... Millers cant live to endgame period. But alas hes scum.

I've also heard town don't fight their lynches ever, and embrace them with calm acceptance, unlike scum, who disagree that they look scummy.
Crazy meta theories abound.

[Thor665]

Also, really curious on how Thor thinks the fact that I was talking about (normal) millers v. flavor millers is relevant since he claimed regular miller.

I claimed the type of Miller I claimed, I'll leave it to Benmage and Amrun to debate what type of Miller that is as they disagree.
I do think the logic of 'Thor is a character, who got assigned scum, so was retroactively made a Miller just for a laugh' to be little better as a case from your side of things.
I don't think you actually have a handle on Faraday's mod logic at the very least, since I am what I say I am - so either you're scum or you're advancing sketchy logic.

What is this Maloney?

Proof that I should have been sheeped days ago.
Yes, I recognize she and I are on the same wagon.
Don't care.
I am pretty sure we're lynching town today regardless and that's why we haven't managed a majority because scum aren't sweating gak.
Or maybe they're really splintered...but...meh.

Wth. Why is there a wagon on us? Why has only Thor provided a reason for his vote on the wagon?

Because I'm town.
Unlike you and your lack of a reason to be voting me...pot, meet the kettle collection.

We have no idea how to read Thor.
[snip]
VOTE: Thor

Whut?

Thor is the best lynch.

I think he's scum but at this point, even if he's not at least we have

1)His claim
2)His final reads
3)And the best vca analysis we're going to get

The worst case scenario is we lose a miller that would have to be lynched at some point anyway.

1. Yes, because that's impossible to get.
2. ...oookay, how thoughtful of me to provide reads, if I'd known providing jack-all would make me less lynchable I would have done that. Oh gawds, the newb is so strong here.
3. ...and, hey, look, off my VCA is scummy Garruk...who is a wagon option, so...y'know...

Worst case scenario is...? Whut? Oh gawds, another Benmage.
That's not what you actually do with Millers - you're just supposed to scumhunt them normally, not policy lynch them because you're unable to find scum without a cop holding your hand (or are Benmage - who may have that problem, what do I know?)

[Thor665]

You don't think that deserves attention?

Maybe an offhanded comment, but it's not the type of thing that's worth a wagon and a possible lynch.

"I will agree it's scummy enough to mention but to not take any action over"
Meh.

I'm not sure where I want to go right now.

Go there anyway.
Now.

[Thor665]

I'm also gone at this point.
Garruk is tied with two other wagons for 2nd place.
i am in first place.
This town is full of raging lackwits.
My vote isn't moving.
Catch you tomorrow or from the Dead QT raging.

[Thor665]

WHY MILLER!@!!!!!

Why not Miller? Miller is a perfectly fine role for what it is and is extremely less bastardly than, say, a Godfather. Admitadly it's supposed to force people to just scumhunt a slot normally, but I see that as a good thing.