Newbie 1433 - Game Over

[Nominull]

VOTE: Core_H86

Where are ya, buddy?

[Nominull]

Yes. Satan is 100% pure scum. There is no denying it. That tell is flawless.

Let me see if I can find his scumbuddy before we end the day.

You ready to go 1-vs-1 against him? The IC shouldn't say stuff like this, the poor newbies will take you seriously.

[Nominull]

Core_H86 has 48 hours to post or will be replaced.

VOTE: Core_H86

Where are ya, buddy?

And the jury finds you guilty on all accounts
And you are to serve the consequences of your evil schemes
Since you went up and decided to vote for someone still unseen

VOTE: Nominull

Serious vote.

Oh god do we have to go through a whole game of this? VOTE: 2Pac serious policy vote.

[Nominull]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

[Nominull]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

[Nominull]

I don't see my vote moving off 2Pac or me contributing much until he cuts out his shtick. I'm here to play mafia, not read bad rap parodies.

The thing is, though it is stupid, do you really think it is scummy? I mean, he clearly thought of this method of posting before, based on his username. I find his posting style annoying, but not necessarily scummy.

Twee posting styles like that are a good cover for scum, it makes you harder to read, which is something scum wants and town doesn't. But honestly I don't really care about that, I'm just not willing to deal with it. We're here to win, but we're also here to have fun, and having doggerel verse shoved down my throat is not my idea of fun.

I agree, there is no way he can it all game. But, I'd prefer to lynch someone scummish to someone annoying.

When do you expect him to stop?

[Nominull]

Votecount 1.2

SatanHellYeah (2): Skelda, Mr_Ree

Nominull (2):

2Pac, archaebob

Ranawey (1):

SatanHellYeah

archaebob (1):

TheFuzzylogic99

Not voting

: Ranawey, Nominull, Core_H86

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-09-25 09:00:00). With 9 players, it's 5 to lynch.

Searching for a replacement for Core_H86

Is there some reason my vote on 2Pac wasn't counted? VOTE: 2Pac

[Nominull]

VOTE: 2Pac

You didn't perceive it as a vote?

[Nominull]

New rule: you can't say why something's scummy unless you can say why it's not townie. Oh oops that's content, I wasn't supposed to be posting any until 2Pac started to play for real. My apologies.

[Nominull]

"Annoyed at 2Pac for his dumbass gimmick" is a pretty easy town motivation for scum to hide in the shadow of. That's why 2Pac shouldn't provide it.

[Nominull]

You can click the "activity overview" link in the bottom right to see when each player's last post was.

[Nominull]

That's adorable, sthar8.

[Nominull]

There's no real skill level qualification for playing as IC. Experience is required, and presumably you get better with experience, but the point of the IC is to provide someone who's familiar with the mechanics and social norms of how the game is played on the site for people to refer to, not necessarily to provide someone who's so amazing at the game they'll automatically win for whatever side they're on. That'd be no fun, after all.

[Nominull]

You're articulate. Interesting. So maybe I get it then. You need to give me

something

though. I'm not looking to waste my time, but I don't have license to simply move on when you're explicitly violating the norms that newbie games are designed to instill. In the world of entry-level mafia play we're supposed to lynch you if you don't post anything.

"We can't just let people casually violate the norms of play" is basically my whole point dude. Look at 2Pac for that, not me. And on a side note if a newbie-game actually manages to lynch someone for lurking I will cry tears of joy and my faith in humanity will be restored.

[Nominull]

Oh, look! Nominull is ignoring my vote and still talking about policies and mechanics!

What is there to say about it? You have to vote according to the dictates of your conscience in combination with your role PM. I'm not going to say "no, I should be able to get away with my stupid nonsense". I shouldn't. But neither should 2Pac.

[Nominull]

I'm trying to think of a suitably annoying way to post reads and satisfy your bloodlust while still maintaining moral integrity. Maybe if I run all my posts through a few Google Translate round trips? Machine translation has been getting steadily better, though, I don't know that that would result in something sufficiently unreadable.

[Nominull]

or should I say "You can think you're just trying to read the post, I, maintaining moral integrity is still discomfort and killing enough properly. Maybe if Google will run through several articles, I translate my way? Steadily, I've been getting better machine translation Not knowing that it was sufficient to something can not read it."

[Nominull]

I am playing to my win condition. 2Pac must be stopped for the good of the town, and I don't actually think you'll lynch me, because you won't lynch him. I may have underestimated how naturally unlikeable I am, though - somehow you can get on my case for not posting content and simultaneously defend him by saying he hasn't been posting anything.

[Nominull]

Sorry, Nominull, if you're really playing to your win condition, you should do something else than tunneling 2Pac. Maybe he has to stop for the good of the town. But YOU should, too. You are not doing that.

And I'll let you tell me no way how I play the victory conditions of scum of the town you. There is no better place my vote to 2 packs of more than now.

[Nominull]

I'm not questioning your vote, I'm questioning you ignoring people's reason to vote you and your possible

incoming

lynch.

I'm not afraid to Lynch "incoming". If you do not manage to you for you to complete the wagon to me, I'm sure juicy information that can be used in a few days we and he is full of it. A little bit, you do not have to deal with two pack or the other and one of the following. It's a win win.

[Nominull]

Friendo, it isn't a win win if both of you are townies.

Oh, I, I'm resigned that it is not based on the arguments of your 2 pack Lynch it. We have a role we PM luck of his city, or in the police. However, people are please refer to the arguments give for me to be interesting Lynch it.

[Nominull]

Also, are you having some trouble to write or I'm that drunk?

If I am going to get the piss when you do not respond to your vote, it would be polite of you to read my article at least.

[Nominull]

Nomninull, stop now. That isn't behaviors at all, and is just making it easier to lynch you. You may think you are helping, but 2Pac isn't even around, and I refuse to lynch him just to shut you up.

I was good poke a deadline of 48 hours instead of 72 this game. You need to in addition to that poke half plus and the corresponding day of the week, to find a replacement but three days ago it is too long to spend long, with no player did not contribute much in the first place really.

[Nominull]

That is mad. I refuse to decipher that.

You are working my last nerve. Why do you feel the need to punish the whole town for one player's behavior?

Good can only exist if evil is ruthlessly destroyed. I refuse to decipher 2Pac's nonsense, but if you put up with it, you'll be getting a lot more from every wacky gimmick playstyler who thinks it's funny.

[Nominull]

welp

[Nominull]

@ Ranawey -

Yeah, he might be. But you have to admit right now it's null. Look at his posts. He's articulate. He's deliberately trolling. That means his behavior comes from a place of disconnect. This game is some kind of petri dish for him, and he's more interested in putting on a show than in winning. There's nothing we can do about it right now unless you want to sacrifice the entire day to taking him down.

Maybe

if we demonstrate intent to lynch him for it he'd change, but we'd have to mean it. Which means we'd lose the ability to pressure other people. So, I catch your drift, but I think the play is to move on for now.

This town is broken, absolutely broken. If you won't lynch me for this, why would anybody, ever, bother to play if they were scum? If you can't use social enforcement mechanisms you can't win; the whole design of the game is "social enforcement mechanisms vs. bad actors". I want to win as much as the next guy, but I know that with this attitude we won't. So I'm taking heroic measures to try to change your mind.

[Nominull]

I ask everyone not voting for 2Pac (which is, uh, everyone) to try to imagine being at LYLO and having to parse that nonsense or lose the game. 2Pac is a liability and will become more so the longer he lives. Best to get rid of him now, while we still have margin for error. Other people will reveal more of their character over time, 2Pac will just subject us to more cheap poetry.

[Nominull]

Realistically, if you don't accept the possibility of the Day 1 lynch being town, you're just fooling yourself. You don't have any solid evidence to go on, it's very hard to rule out someone's innocence completely. We have to accept the reality of the situation.

And there's no real reason to treat 2Pac as innocent, in particular. He doesn't post all that often and when he does his poetic puffery tends to crowd out the actual content of his posts. I feel like you're treating being annoying as proof of innocence, which is both a bad incentive to provide and also just wrong on the facts.

[Nominull]

Speaking the hard truths is a town thing to do. Hardness harms you no matter your alignment, but the truth serves only the town.

[Nominull]

Realistically, if you don't accept the possibility of the Day 1 lynch being town, you're just fooling yourself. You don't have any solid evidence to go on, it's very hard to rule out someone's innocence completely. We have to accept the reality of the situation.

And there's no real reason to treat 2Pac as innocent, in particular. He doesn't post all that often and when he does his poetic puffery tends to crowd out the actual content of his posts.

I feel like you're treating being annoying as proof of innocence, which is both a bad incentive to provide and also just wrong on the facts.

Note: you're annoying and you don't seem that innocent.

Well, that's a start.

[Nominull]

Also, 2Pac, I honestly didn't even fully read all of your posts. They are a mess, and I can't be bothered with them. As far as I'm concerned, you are dead weight until you drop that ridiculous gangster act, and so me ignoring you is not scummy. You and Nomni are two of the worst players I've ever played with, and expect to get dragged to the end because of that.

How can you say this and not vote him? Do you really think it's safe to have people in the town whose posts you aren't even reading?

[Nominull]

There's no real skill level qualification for playing as IC. Experience is required, and presumably you get better with experience, but the point of the IC is to provide someone who's familiar with the mechanics and social norms of how the game is played on the site for people to refer to, not necessarily to provide someone who's so amazing at the game they'll automatically win for whatever side they're on. That'd be no fun, after all.

Don't like this. don't like this at all..

Of course I'm going to win for town. My town record is like almost perfect. This sounds like a discredit...

To be honest I don't know or care about your record or meta. Reputation ain't shit to me, 'cause what you done in the past don't impress me. I was speaking in general terms.

[Nominull]

I'll note this is the second time at least that 2Pac has been MIA for over 60 hours, pushing near the prod deadline (he would be exceeding it in faster games). You can call it tunneling if you want, but even if you ignore his manner of speaking and mentally replace the things he says with the things you think he was maybe trying to say, he has been lurking pretty hardcore. One nifty thing about his dialectical strategy is how it draws attention away from other aspects of his play, freeing him up to be as scummy as he likes.

[Nominull]

Yeah, what's going on people? It's like you disappeared, heh.

I see what you mean, Fuzzy, but I don't feel like Ree is doing that particularly, at least, not yet.

I'm right here. I think 2Pac would be a nice compromise lynch if we can't come to a conclusion by the end of the day.

[Nominull]

@ Nom-

So you are saying you willing lynch someone who might be town so we could have a lynch by the end of the day? Please tell me why this is not scummy bc I see this as really scummy?

FOS- Nom

Whoever we lynch might be town, Day 1. There's no getting around that, the game is not so easy as all that. But even beyond that, it is better to lynch someone who is

likely

to be town than to no-lynch, generally. No-lynching is really bad for the town except in special circumstances (e.g. if a mislynch would lose the game but a no-lynch would not, or in some situations with powerful power roles the town can use at night that make them want to drag the game on as long as possible). In general, the lynch is a source of information not controlled by the mafia, and lynching someone,

anyone

, at least gives the town that information to work with. In the case of a no-lynch, the town does not have much new information the next day, and so the lynch situation is not likely to look any better. Lynching at least moves the game forward in a way that the scum don't control.

I'm sure our IC will back me up on the value of lynching someone you're not sure on as opposed to no-lynching.

[Nominull]

Nom, no lynching is not even a consideration at this point so that entire angle of conversation is pointless.

I was asked "So you are saying you willing lynch someone who might be town so we could have a lynch by the end of the day? Please tell me why this is not scummy bc I see this as really scummy?" I obligingly told him why it was not scummy.

[Nominull]

Yes and it originated with you stating that we can consider a compromise lynch at the end of the day and we're not exactly there yet so it's not really worth talking about.

There's only a few more days left until deadline, and low activity increases the risk. It's worth thinking about IMO.

Speaking of low activity, can we get a prod on 2Pac?

[Nominull]

Sorry that should have been bold for the mod to read it.

can we get a prod on 2Pac?

[Nominull]

Does anybody who for whatever reason is putting the effort into deciphering 2Pac's posts wanna tell me if he has an explanation for disappearing for three days at a time?

[Nominull]

If I posted an honest read list you wouldn't believe me, so I may as well stick to what I'm doing.

[Nominull]

2Pac has this game figured out. The winning move is not to play. But I'll stand in defiance of that until the very end, because as long as I don't play you can't lynch me either.

[Nominull]

You have plenty to read me from. I've posted twice as much as 2Pac or Mr. Ree, and nigh on four times as much as sthar8. It's not as though I haven't been expressing opinions relevant to the game, either. I'm being very open about where my "head-space" is: we must lynch 2Pac, and the right time is today. I just don't see how it helps town to deviate from that message.

[Nominull]

If you read my prior games you should know better than to ask me for townreads. Noting that 2Pac disappears for days at a time and posts mostly fluff while he's here is plenty alignment-related.

[Nominull]

Hunting any scum but 2Pac would be to the town's detriment, and I don't believe in hunting town. So I'm sort of stuck.

[Nominull]

It's different from 1-3 because he's done it twice now, making it a pattern. It's different from 4 because Satan contributes much more when he's here. I'm not thrilled about any of those, and I think that lynching the worst offender

pour encourager les autres

would be a wonderful idea.

I wouldn't fabricate reasoning. Rather, my case is becoming more and more reasoned as more reasons to lynch him besides the "policy lynch" reveal themselves.

His rap sections are the fluff to which I'm referring, yes. His posts are rare, and when you cut the verse out of them they are short as well. This is scum.

His actual stances and reads are crap. I go crosseyed trying to read his stuff, but an example from his latest OMGUS on me - he calls me "tunneling scum". It should be obvious what I am, and that's not it.

[Nominull]

I think you put massively too much trust in your townreads. That's why I don't like them, "process of elimination" doesn't really work. You want me to go from my solid scumread on 2Pac to Satan based on stuff like "Mr. Ree wouldn't have boasted about his abilities as scum" and "Satan is obviously scum so that means Skelda can't be scum because he voted for him". I'll make you a counter-offer, let's lynch 2Pac and then we can see about Satan. It would do the wagon good to have somebody "respectable" on it, and the window for the day 1 lynch is closing.

[Nominull]

Here's something for you to ponder, as a show of my good faith: if Mr. Ree is such a good townie, why is he voting for me and not 2Pac?

[Nominull]

About the contradiction you have found: I would really like to hear Satan defend himself before I make my comments. If he hasn't addressed the issue by the end of monday I will join his wagon.

[Nominull]

Ranawey, you never answered Satan as to what about his treatment of the replacement was scummy.

Now that Satan has defended himself, here are my thoughts: I think he's probably innocent. The contradiction in question is perhaps more likely to come from scum than from town, since scum may have a hard time keeping track of what wagons they were pushing, but it is far from unthinkable that it could come from town. It is easy to get "caught up in the moment" when making an argument, and town are less likely to carefully monitor their statements for contradictions. The fact that Satan is blaming his "aggressiveness" for the suspicions on him seems to fit this hypothesis. He could be scum, but he's not even the second most suspicious in my eyes.

Can't we just lynch 2Pac? Please? Just do this one thing for me? If Satan's scum he'll slip again and we'll get more evidence on him as time goes by, but 2Pac gives us very little to work with.

[Nominull]

Skelda, "people seeming confident in X" is a bad metric to go by. Some of those people are scum. Have your own thoughts and your own opinions, trust only trustworthy people (ideally lynched townies).

[Nominull]

You can't explain your illogical behavior logically, but townies often behave illogically.

[Nominull]

But whatever. Hurry up and claim, Satan, so we can move on to 2Pac.

[Nominull]

But whatever. Hurry up and claim, Satan, so we can move on to 2Pac.

Scumpost.

The thing is Regfan, ^ this looks worse than Satan's slip.

Should I take you at your word that you're good at this game? If you are, that's a scumclaim.

[Nominull]

I have a guess as to Satan's alignment. So do you. We're in agreement on that, at least. How about you join me and we can get a counterwagon going on 2Pac?

[Nominull]

I don't see what scum has to gain from drawing out the claim process if they're planning to claim VT anyway. Makes it less likely that there will be time to form another wagon and so they get lynched based on inertia.

[Nominull]

We don't have much time, so please everyone, hurry up and vote for 2Pac.

[Nominull]

I'm defending Satan FWIW. And associational tells from people who haven't flipped are useless. Mr. Ree should know this, since he was talking real big about how good he was at this game.

[Nominull]

Why not go for 2Pac, Mr. Ree? Since you aren't partners or anything. Same goes for you, Satan.

[Nominull]

Why isn't 2Pac going to happen? I don't understand this. If you're casting around for a compromise lynch he's the obvious choice. Even if you don't agree with my case on him, he's obnoxious and we'll all breathe easier once he's dead. If all you want is a lynch, any lynch, why not go with that lynch? If people would stop saying "it's never gonna happen" it would happen in a heartbeat.

[Nominull]

Nomni, if we can get enough people to vote 2Pac, I will. I'd prefer Satan, but if he doesn't have the votes 2Pac is next best for me.

With you me and Regfan that's 3 already. The problem is everybody sees nobody voting for him, says "oh he doesn't have the votes" and then doesn't vote for him, so nobody else sees them voting for him.

[Nominull]

Has anyone actually made a case against 2pac that doesn't involve his gimmick? I think its pretty clear he intended on posting like that regardless of which alignment he drew. In fact, he would have stopped doing it if he was scum so he wouldn't get lynched. Since it would be playing against wincon and all..

More nonsense from Mr. Ree, Townie Extraordinaire. It's never playing to your wincondition to get lynched for your disruptive behavior, scum or town. If he were playing to wincon and the town displayed any willingness to lynch him for his behavior, either wincon would stop. But up until a few hours ago I was a lonely voice crying out in the wilderness for his lynch, and from that perspective, if you can get away with it, a gimmick like that helps you slide under the radar. Because of that gimmick, people like Mr. Ree, The Best Town Player In The World, dismiss the case on him as solely based on his gimmick and don't give any thought to his other scummy behaviors. From that perspective it's perfectly good play for the scum wincon, and the town that doesn't lynch him have only themselves to blame for getting outplayed.

[Nominull]

Tomorrow has come and gone: where is sthar8?

[Nominull]

Don't feed me that AtE. My win ratio is that high because I won't compromise on my reads, I defend my townreads and I keep an open mind. Nobody has truely given me any reason to suspect 2pac. What you are saying about him now contradicts what you said earlier.

What would you like me to do? Abandon my reads and tell people to follow you? I said at the beginning that i was goin to show people how the game is meant to be played. Abandoning my reads for the sake of a wagon I don't believe in is not how one plays town. If you joined to see if you can win against me, I've beaten better. If you joined to see how awesome I am at catching scum, listen up. This isn't something to get mad about. If you truely are town, treat me as an obstacle or change my mind. It's not just me you have to convince, you need 2 more to get your 2pac lynch. If it turns out you are wrong, you can swallow your pride and try again. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'll do the same.

Do you not see the benefit of a counterwagon? Do you not see the benefit of forcing people to take hard stances on their reads?

Overcome my questions with answers. Counter my points with facts. Guide me with the truth.

If I just lay down and die, I cannot show you what you wanted to see in me. You wanted to learn but you cannot learn from one who teaches nothing.

That's an inspiring speech, but the problem is that you're not demonstrating how awesome you are at catching scum at all. I'm town, and that ought to be obvious if you know what you're doing. Sticking to your reads even in the face of evidence to the contrary is not how one plays town. Refusing to say anything that might contradict what you said earlier is not how one plays town; it is in fact how one plays scum. It has been said, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

[Nominull]

Also I didn't join to "learn" shit from you. I joined because I thought if there's a competent player in the room I might have someone listening to me for once. But nope. Isn't happening, instead you're being stubborn and refusing to converse and instead want to just sit around with a no lynch likely happening (And oh watch, it will or we'll have some blitz lynch in the last minutes potentially hitting a PR).

I hope you don't regret replacing in, I have great respect for your play in this game, scum or town.

(I wanted to say this, I felt like I should say this, as one human being to another. Mafia is an adversarial game and sometimes it is easier to put someone down than to give them credit for what they do. I would like to oppose this state of affairs, please take this in the spirit that it is given so that we can all work toward a more friendly environment to play in.)

[Nominull]

(Guess who keeps the same first vote as their scum read for the whole day; scum).

Not, uh, always.

[Nominull]

At this point we don't have time for anyone but me or 2Pac. We don't have time anymore for a new wagon. So

either vote for me, or vote for 2Pac. There are no longer any other options.

If we no-lynch today we will lose. Lynching 2Pac would be extremely great, but lynching me would at least shed light on 2Pac and History's Greatest Townie Mr. Ree.

[Nominull]

remind me of your reason for your townread on 2Pac, Satan?

[Nominull]

Unofficial votecount with 11 hours remaining until deadline:

Nominull (2): 2Pac, TheFuzzylogic99
2Pac (4): Nominull, Regfan, Ranawey, Skelda
skelda (3): sthar8, SatanHellYeah, Mr_Ree

I will be around a few hours longer, but then I will be unavailable until deadline. Someone please make sure to lynch 2Pac before time runs out.

[Nominull]

Well, I was gonna open by voting sthar8, but looks like he was town. Here's my thoughts on yesterday's debacle:

*We got screwed because the cop role got given to someone who wasn't taking the game seriously. Scum can't even take credit for that, it was just their dumb luck.
*One thing scum could take credit for, though, is how down-to-the-wire it came on the lynch. If there had been more time, maybe we could have gotten a claim out of 2Pac. In particular, sthar8 trying to start a Skelda wagon when there was a day and change left was a predictably bad idea. I warned everyone that it had to come down between me and 2Pac, and you didn't listen, and we paid the price.
*Mr. Ree, notable excellent player, should have admonished sthar8, but instead he joined right in.
*Mr. Ree was right about 2Pac being town, but this is worrisome, since there was no good reason for his belief, and Mr. Ree has not otherwise demonstrated supernatural powers of perception (c.f. doggedly pursuing me despite how clearly town I am). Scum know who town are.
*Mr. Ree is now pushing association tells from people who have not yet flipped, and tells based on the WIFOM-laden nightkill ("just saying" to avoid having to deal with the extent to which his argument is actually nonsense)
*Somewhere along the line this turned into less a "thoughts on yesterday's debacle" and more a case to
VOTE: Mr_Ree
, didn't it.
*But yeah, some other thoughts about other people. I have them.
*Don't like how reluctant fuzzy was to cast the lynching vote - the paranoia about getting held accountable for the lynch seems much more from a newb-scum than a newb-town perspective.
*Regfan made legitimately thoughtful cases. That's harder to do as scum than as town, even if the cases turn out to be wrong. Feeling good about him.
*Ranawey hasn't contributed much with real meat. One to keep an eye on. I'd like him to form a case for real.
*Satan I kinda like for town, his response to Reg's calling him out on a "contradiction" felt genuine.
*Skelda I never really understood the case on. He was 2Pac's #2 scumread though, and it's always good to keep in mind the opinions of lynched townies.

[Nominull]

Hammering because of the deadline was the right thing to do. I wouldn't find it suspicious at all except for the extent of the aversion you showed to the lynch before it even came up town. You were worried about how you were going to look when 2Pac came up town and you had hammered him, which seems like a scum worry to me. You seem sort of like scum who was happy that it looked like town was going to run up a townie of their own accord and didn't want to spoil it by getting on the wagon yourself.

[Nominull]

Well, we'll see what Reg has to say when he shows up. I don't know why you'd think he'd try to blame you for a lynch he was on and he was pushing and he out-and-out told you to drop the hammer on, though. Like I say, it seems like you're paranoid about accountability, which is the thing scum fear most.

[Nominull]

A scumread that was nonsense then too. A cop who didn't have any results. He should have played better. I was trying to help. He should have played better. You're one to talk. I was "discrediting" you before you started to speak against me. Not my fault if scum votes for me. I'm sorry you can't see it, you must be pretty bad, or scum. Once it was down to me vs. 2Pac scum couldn't lose. Your gut is wrong. You're wrong here.

[Nominull]

I have the feeling that he will almost parrot what you are saying.

I dont understand why I would fear accountability since if I was scum I could just hammer him without any repercussion. He had a strong wagon and nobody would of blamed me for lynching him I could easily gone along with the town and got the lynch/ Why would I want to hesitate and draw attention on myself when lynching him without questions would be the easiest thing to do if I was scum . Sorry but like I said your logic makes no sense in my opinion.

You said, and I quote, "I feel like I am being set up to take the fall if 2Pac flips town. I have the feeling that I will be the day 2 target, that if I dont get NKed first.". I don't know why you would say that if you didn't feel like you might be blamed for lynching him. Yes, it would be a foolish thing to think, but sometimes newbies think foolish things, especially newbies that haven't yet had a night to confer with their IC partners.

[Nominull]

If he's running and hiding because of the shame of getting his read wrong, that's dishonorable of him.

[Nominull]

@Nom- exactly. The way Regs has been acting I was pretty sure that when 2pac flipped townie ( which was more likely than not .That is why I said if he flipped bc I was not 100 percent sure) Regs would try to goat me ( not sure if thats the right word )for hammering 2Pac. You can believe me or not that is up to you but its the truth. Maybe I was being paranoid but I dont trust Regs and do not like the position he put me in. Also what about the others who did not vote 2pac they could just as easily be laying off the 2pac vote to look like they are good old townies. This is exactly what Regs wanted ...to push the 2pac vote and than for someone else to take the heat for it. If you are town than you have done exactly what Regfan wanted.

Any comment on the lie you told when you said "I dont understand why I would fear accountability since if I was scum I could just hammer him without any repercussion."?

Mr. Ree, any comment on the lie you told when you said "He wasn't worried about how he would look, he was worried about what the flip would be. That much should be clear."?

[Nominull]

@Nom- Honestly I dont know what to tell you without repeating myself another hundred times. Anyways I have no idea how you think the statement you posted is a lie.The fact is I would get more heat by hesitating to vote 2pac than to put a quick lynch on 2pac . A fact that I believed that Regs used to his advantage. At the end of day 1 almost everyone either thought 2pac was scum or a bad player. Why would anyone blame me for hammering him. Since I hesitated bc of the mistrust of Regs and me believing it being a bad lynch I ended up taking heat I would otherwise would not get.

If you didn't think anyone would blame you for hammering 2Pac why did you say you thought Regfan would blame you for hammering 2Pac? Was that a lie, or is this?

[Nominull]

Satan, can you explain to me why you think you can trust Mr. Ree?

[Nominull]

@Nom I think I can trust Ree, at least for now, because in the first place he didn't lynch the cop. I know, I know, I don't mean everyone that lynched the cop is scum, but I can definetely say that if Ree was scum, he could have pushed for an easy lynch. He is playing openly, giving reads, defending his thoughts with arguments and refusing to give away his gut. He clearly said that he would vote with his scumreads against his townreads, and so he did. He hasn't done anything specially scummy. At first I wasn't confident about him, but this was because as a newbie I wasn't used to reaction tests, but then I understood the whole thing, and now I can read him as pure town.

I know he is almost tunneling you right now. But you really have acted in a scummy way. Facts are facts, man.

I believe this will fullfill your request.

It's not that hard for scum not to be on a day 1 town lynch, you know. Especially one that goes right down to the deadline. The only difference between Mr. Ree and Fuzzy is that Fuzzy was around at deadline to drop the hammer and Mr. Ree wasn't. Fuzzy looks better than Mr. Ree there.

We know 2Pac was town. I know I'm town. It's not at all inconceivable that Skelda is town. Can you see how, if all three of us are town, the fact that Mr. Ree didn't vote for the one who actually got lynched doesn't mean you can read him as "pure town"?

[Nominull]

A no-lynch would have been better for scum than lynching 2Pac, given that they didn't know he was the cop. He didn't have to be sure about the intentions of Fuzzy.

[Nominull]

Of course committing to forcing a no-lynch rather than lynch one of your townreads is anti-town anyhow.

[Nominull]

I think I might have got it, but...

You mean that if Fuzzy hadn't hammered him, it would've been better for scum because they would know who the cop was.
But the thing is 2pac claimed when he was sentenced. I don't think he would have claimed.

But f Ree was scum, what kind of benefit is to have a living townie over having him killed? How could he possibly risk such a good myslynch, putting all the responsibility in Fuzzy's hands?

I keep thinking that Ree being scum would imply Fuzz being scum. And right now I can't accept such theory.

If the town no-lynches, the scum get a free kill and the town has to go to the next day without any real new information. The lynch of a townie, on the other hand, provides lots of information. Mr. Ree will back me up on this, it's better for the town to lynch a townie Day 1 than to no-lynch.

The fact that 2Pac was the cop would change the math on this except that nobody knew he was the cop. Scum wouldn't have known exactly how good a mislynch they would be risking.

[Nominull]

Mr. Ree is trying to assume a consensus that doesn't exist, and he hasn't addressed my concerns even to the level that Fuzzy has.

[Nominull]

Requesting a prod on Regfan

. Coward.

[Nominull]

I'll give you a hint. Based on evidence, Satan and I are the two worst possible votes for refusing and arguing Against the 2package wagon.

That metric is too easy for scum to manipulate. By that metric Fuzzy is less suspicious than either of you, since he was arguing against it too, but he was around to drop the hammer rather than let us no-lynch.

[Nominull]

The fact that you three weren't on the 2Pac wagon is evidence in your favor, but it's weak evidence. We were headed for a lynch on 2Pac or a no-lynch, and either one would have served scum purposes. I don't know Skelda's alignment, but I know mine, and you get exactly zero credit in my eyes for voting me over 2Pac, Mr. Ree.

[Nominull]

The fact that you three weren't on the 2Pac wagon is evidence in your favor, but it's weak evidence. We were headed for a lynch on 2Pac or a no-lynch, and either one would have served scum purposes. I don't know Skelda's alignment, but I know mine, and you get exactly zero credit in my eyes for voting me over 2Pac, Mr. Ree.

If that is what you believe, then why did it sound like He was your second choice?

Who is the "He" in this post? The Lord God is always my first choice.

[Nominull]

While I appreciate you calling me God, Ree works just fine too.

I was referring to Fuzzy. Was he not your secondary scum read?

Yeah, but I don't see what about what I said contradicts that so I figured maybe you meant somebody else and were confused.

[Nominull]

also Fuzzy had not been directly mentioned in the conversation for quite some time, so I don't think you were licensed to use a pronoun to refer to him.

[Nominull]

Does this not contradict your secondary scum read on Fuzzy? It really sounds like a townpoint in his favor...

I said as much, didn't I? It's evidence, but weak evidence. Not enough to override the other concerns.

[Nominull]

Regfan seems too embarrassed to post after being wrong. He could always redeem himself by Sheeping me but If it actually goes to replacement, He doesn't deserve those scummies awards.

Yeah, I'm hugely disappointed in him. (Well, I'd hope he'd play as an independent voice of reason rather than sheeping deceiver scum, but you know.)

[Nominull]

What exactly are these concerns you speak of?

*Don't like how reluctant fuzzy was to cast the lynching vote - the paranoia about getting held accountable for the lynch seems much more from a newb-scum than a newb-town perspective.

He's been ginger about taking positions and paranoid about being suspected all game, and that's a scumtell, especially in new players who haven't yet learned that the scumminess of their actions is not nearly as apparent to people who aren't them.

[Nominull]

And could you address the lie you told about his paranoia leading up to the hammer, Mr. Ree? I've asked you a couple times, and you just keep ignoring me.

[Nominull]

I guess it takes time to come up with a good fake claim...

You're not very good at this game.

[Nominull]

My win ratio begs to differ. It's one of the highest on site.

How much of that comes from scum games where you browbeat people into going along with your nonsense?

[Nominull]

For goodness sake guys let's not drop a lynch before Regfan's replacement even shows up.

[Nominull]

VOTE: Ranawey

Once we get to LYLO it will be too late to pressure this lurker into contributing.

[Nominull]

I feel like Reg's disappearance is on purpose. Why'd he say anything if we all are here bashing at each others and expecting him to come? It's easier just to lurk, and we are clearly implying that we won't do nothing definitive until he appears. We are wasting time because of him, and he knows it.

Meanwhile he promised us reads half a week ago and they haven't come forth. His reasoning for getting on the 2Pac wagon was a little tortured too...

Mr. Ree, Ranawey, Skelda, Satan, Fuzzy, Regfan's Replacement. Two of these six are scum. And there's a bad tendency to ignore the quiet ones, because they're less salient. I don't know why Mr. Ree gives Ranawey a townread. Does he see some content I'm missing? The most contentful post of Ranawey's AFAICT was his justification for getting on the 2Pac wagon, which doesn't really look townie.

[Nominull]

Lylo???

LYLO is a term for the position where there is only one more town than scum and so an incorrect lynch or a failure to lynch will lose the game. If we lynch Skelda and he comes up town we will be in LYLO tomorrow.

[Nominull]

Nom suppose I go along with you and wait for Regfan replacement ...... how long do you think I should wait before you think a Skelda lynch is acceptable? Also you think Skelda is town can you explain why .

It doesn't usually take too long to fill a replacement slot. We've got almost ten days still, we can afford to wait.

I think Skelda's town because 4 out of the 6 of you are town so that's the way to bet in the absence of anything compelling. He's sort of in the middle of my reads list. Also, I'm not on the wagon, and any successful wagon needs one of my vote, a scum vote, or every other townie's vote. Easier to get one of the latter two if the target is town.

Let me ask the question in reverse: why do

you

think he's scum? You go from saying "besides Skelda being stubborn and not admitting killing 2pac was a mistake what else make you think he is lynch worthy? Honestly I dont see much besides that issue" to saying "I really wanted a Reg lynch. He seems the most scummy. I think that Skelda is a good second choice." Do you mind explaining the basis for this shift in attitude?

[Nominull]

Nom is just fear mongering. Trying to scare you so you second guess yourself.

I agree that waiting for a replacement is in our best interest though.

I'm considering the worst case scenario. If we lynch Skelda he could very well flip town, and then we'd be going into LYLO with very little information about Ranawey. I'd like him to post more meaty content or die, so that that doesn't happen.

[Nominull]

After thinking about it a little more, if Skelda's scum, that means either Regfan is his partner (seems unlikely), or his partner is bussing him (doesn't seem necessary at this point). I'd rather go for the Mr. Ree-Fuzzy-Ranawey triad.

[Nominull]

There is no shift in opinion.....

I have believed with all my guts that Reg is scum . While it turned out that he did not attack me on day 2 as I thought he would , he did act scummy. He blatantly called me out as scum than backed off the comment when realize that calling me scum risked me not hammering 2Pac. He did the same thing with Satan. He basically contradicted himself to ensure a lynch. I find that scummy. Not only that but he whined ,complain and threw fits about those who didnt agree with him in order to pressure them into voting his way. I find that really scummy.

I also found Skelda scummy as well. Since I could not get my main scum choice I thought the best option was to go with my second and hope to get Reg on Day 3...... What you call it a compromise lynch I believe.

I admit that pretty much my case against Skelda.

Why did you find Skelda scummy, though? That's not an explanation. The shift in opinion is plain as day - in 733 you are defending him, in 773 you have him as your second-highest scumread. There's nothing wrong with changing your mind,

contra

Mr. Ree, but you should ideally have some reason, or at least not deny that it happened.

A compromise lynch is not something you do when it's only been a few days since the day began, anyway.

[Nominull]

One nice thing about a 48-hour prod deadline for newbie games is you can start replacing newbies sooner when they inevitably flake.

[Nominull]

I'm interested to hear what Ranawey or his replacement has to say before choosing between him and Fuzzy and Mr. Ree.

[Nominull]

Skelda- I find it funny that you are totally denying( and totally dismissing ) that it is possible to guess 2Pac was the cop. Yes its usually not a likely event but it still possible especially if the players acts in a certain manners. Also in smaller games where there are less choices.

if Reg is town please explain why
1) contradicting himself at the end of day 1 in order to get a lynch is townie move
2) why a townie would through fits., insult people and try to manipulate people in order to vote his way is townie.
3) Why he disappeared after 2pac flipped cop.
4) He came in at the last moment , broke two wagon and forced a force lynch on 2Pac at the very end of day 1

Do you really believe a townie would do these things.

A townie is more likely to disappear after pushing a lynch on the cop than scum is. If he were scum, he would have known he was pushing a townie, at least, he would have been prepared to defend himself today. On the other hand, a townie would be faced with the painful revelation that he had substantially trashed our chances.

[Nominull]

Mr. Ree, what do you think about Fuzzy's recent posts?

[Nominull]

hit me with a "why do you think that" first, you've been pretty coy with the reasoning for your townreads all game

[Nominull]

hit me with a "why do you think that" first, you've been pretty coy with the reasoning for your townreads all game

I hate to pull the I asked you first card but I don't want your reasoning affected by my answers.

I feel as though I asked you first. I asked what you thought about Fuzzy's recent posts, and "Town" is not really a sufficient answer.

You claim you're bad at scum because you can't fake reads, but if all your reads are one word it's hard to see how this can be true.

[Nominull]

What I think is you and skelda are voting him for hammering the Lynch you both were pushing for. That makes it look like you are trying to shirk your own blame for being the ones to push the vote in the first place which again, looks bad on you two.

Why do you think his recent posting looks scummy?

I didn't ask about me, or even Skelda. Why are you deflecting away from talking about Fuzzy so hard?

Note that I am not, in fact, voting for him. There was a very recent votecount that should have made that clear to you. This is the quality of play you think is worth bragging about?

[Nominull]

I'm sorry, were you not saying you found him scummy? That's what I based that on. If you in fact find him town, why don't you go ahead and explain why so we can bring Skelda into the light. You seem to be avoiding that question altogether, just like the question of why I should read you as obv town.

Why don't you just answer the question? Are you having a hard time faking a read you don't believe in?

[Nominull]

VOTE: Mr_Ree

[Nominull]

You wanna go 1v1, Mr. Ree? I'm tired of you avoiding my questions. I'll self-hammer so long as you guys promise to lynch him tomorrow, and I'll recommend you take a close look at Fuzzy on day 4.

[Nominull]

I don't know what to think anymore. I really had a townread on Regfan.

[Nominull]

I will be greatly shocked if Skelda turns out to be scum given that manner of hammering. For goodness's sake we still haven't replaced Ranawey! I can't see it as anything other than an attempt to throw us into LYLO with as little information as possible.

[Nominull]

Nice of the mafia to give us a sporting chance, I guess?

[Nominull]

We're in LYLO now, so don't vote until we're ready to lynch. Use FOS instead, like so:

FOS: Fuzzy

The nice thing about FOS is that since it's unofficial it doesn't have to be on its own line.

[Nominull]

Here is what I'm thinking - mafia could have won the game by shooting literally any other townie and then letting us lynch Peabody. So either they're toying with us, or they didn't realize that. If they're toying with us, okay, whatever, we lose, but we would have lost anyway. If they didn't realize it, that indicts Fuzzy and Satan.

[Nominull]

I think we should all reread the game while we wait for Klick to finish his reread. From here on out we can't get any wrong answers.

[Nominull]

Kinda of quiet in here.....

maybe the scum are hiding out hoping to get a no lynch since they can not get a quick lynch. I might be wrong but a no lynch would also give them the win so maybe thats their back up plan.

@Ree- If you look at me you can see that I am as townie as one can be. I have done everything a good townie I could . But I welcome you to investigate me. Go through my ISO as much as you want..I believe once you do that you will see Im on the town side.

Personally, I'm being quiet because I'm reviewing the game, which takes time. How is your review going? I can see why you might not bother, since you already know who the scum are.

Klick ought to let us know what he thinks of the game.

[Nominull]

Klick, you still there? It's been three days, buddy.

[Nominull]

I'm trying to do a thorough reread, because I'm not sure. Fuzzy, Satan, and Ranawey have all been suspiciously cautious in their behavior, while you've been aggressive, but all three people you were aggressively pushing were town, which is suspiciously worse than simply random, especially for someone who claims to be good at the game. Logically if someone who knew what they were doing was scum they shouldn't have killed Peabody, but your reaction at the start of day (being shocked you were alive, not shocked Peabody was dead) suggests maybe you don't know what you're doing.

I really wish Peabody hadn't quickhammered and we had more info from Klick's slot.

[Nominull]

The thing is, if I were scum I wouldn't have needed to frame anybody with the Peabody kill. I could have killed somebody else, and then me and my scumbuddy could have pushed hard that Peabody deserved to be lynched for what he'd done, because in fact he did. We'd only have to persuade one of the townies, and we'd have the truth on our side - Peabody's quicklynch was, in fact, scummy as hell. That strategy would have been more or less a sure thing, no need to frame anybody.

When I was thinking about the game overnight, I figured that if Peabody was town we'd already lost, so I mostly tried to figure out who his scumbuddy would be. I never dreamed the mafia would rescue us from his misplay by killing him themselves.

[Nominull]

@ nom so how does that make me scum.....You seem to be pushing very hard for me being scum with the PB NK. This feel like bad rationale or maybe even scummy.

It makes you and Satan scum because you have less experience with the game than Ree and Klick, and so you would be less likely to come up with the sure thing strategy that would require you not to kill Peabody.

I don't feel that I'm "pushing very hard" on this, or at least I wasn't. I mentioned it once, and then explained my position further when you pressed me. Your paranoid overreaction sort of makes me think I've hit the target.

[Nominull]

Yes I overacted....but it was out of frustration. You tend to tunnel. Alos I was worried that Ree. Satan , or klick would blindly follow your logic without followit totally through. I dont want to be mislynched like 2Pac was.

this is where Noms logic has holes.

1) Nom joined a few months before me, if we follow his logic than it posible that he could of made the same mistake.
2) he assumes that bc someone is new they are not smart enough to see such an obvious possibilities as a Pb lynch. Just bc someone is new does not mean they dont understand pyscology or stratergy.
3)his theory only takes in tha account tnat noobs would make a mistake and that more expierence players are not orones to mistake
4) assumes that I am a comp, ete noob and I have no expierence at all
5) assumes that the scum killed Pb bc of poor straterby as opposed ti having otber motivations
6)assumes that the PB kill was the only posibly bad night kill
7) forgets the fact since we are at Lylo that if Pb was alive he would not be the only lynching canidates


for now I am going to drop the matter. I think I will investigate the possibility that Klick went Mia on purpose

You're frustrated because you don't want to recognize that you had the game in the palm of your hand and let it slip away.

1)I've been on the site four times as long as you. And it's plainly obvious that I realize letting Peabody live would have meant a scumwin, since I'm the one who brought it up.
2)It's not necessarily a matter of intelligence but rather a matter of playskill, which is a combination of intelligence and familiarity with the mechanics and familiarity with how scum and town react in various situations. Newbies are less familiar with the latter two. That's not a knock on them, everybody's new at some point, and the whole point of the newbie-game is to get them familiar with the game.
3)In fact I was starting to wonder if Mr. Ree's demonstrated low playskill might make it point to him, but with the way you're freaking out I'm thinking not.
4)I just figure that you and Satan are less experienced than me, Mr. Ree, and Klick. Which is why you're playing as newbies, right?
5)If you have a chance to win the game for sure, and you pass it up for "other motivations", that's poor strategy.
6)Any other nightkill would have won the game.
7)This just isn't true. Even Peabody expected to be lynched if Skelda came up town.

[Nominull]

It is 4x the time, actually. You joined in August, 2 months ago, I joined in January, 9 months ago. 2 x 4 = 8. I gave you the extra month because I was feeling generous.

[Nominull]

At LYLO I'm not sure freaking out under pressure is even a scumtell, since even a townie will lose if he is lynched. What does Satan think?

I really wish people wouldn't replace into games and then immediately disappear. It's really disruptive. By the time we get another replacement half the deadline will be used up already.

[Nominull]

Lurking so hard you get replaced isn't a winning strategy, because once you're replaced you can't win. Either he'll come back and we can talk to him, or he'll get replaced and we can talk to his replacement.

[Nominull]

I don't think you understand, Satan. If you agree that Peabody was a sure thing, it makes no sense to forgo that to frame somebody. You don't need to frame anybody! You can just let the lynch on Peabody happen and then you've won the game. "Intent to frame" here

would be

a mistake.

Your question was, what, why am I alive? As I've explained, it's simple error. Killing me would have won the game, there are no good reasons for passing that up.

[Nominull]

you're killin' me here, Klick.

[Nominull]

... can we get a prod on Klick? sigh

it'd be nice if we could get a deadline extension, it's terrible when a replacement dicks around and then replaces out, and the long prod deadline just makes it worse.

[Nominull]

I think the problem is that we haven't heard anything from Ranawey's slot since the middle of day 2, which is making it very hard to assess his alignment at LYLO. And if he's town and we want to lynch scum, we need his vote. So there's sort of not a whole lot of playing the game we can do here.

[Nominull]

Well, I'm ready to sit down and try to hash out a lynch, but we really need all the slots filled to do that. So... waiting.

[Nominull]

OK, let's do this. VOTE: Fuzzy

[Nominull]

Crap... I think fuzzy may be town...

Damnit.. give me a bit. Will drop a vote ASAP.

Are you saying Klick and I are the scum? If either one of us was town and so was Fuzzy, whichever scum wasn't voting for Fuzzy could have dropped the hammer and won the game by now. How is this not apparent to you?

[Nominull]

I guess there's no evidence that Satan has been around since Klick placed that vote, so he and Klick could be scum together.

[Nominull]

I guess there's no evidence that Satan has been around since Klick placed that vote, so he and Klick could be scum together.

If you came to this conclusion, why not unvote?

I'm trying to look at it from your point of view, as to why you think Fuzzy might be town, despite the fact that we haven't lost yet. I'm voting for the person I think is most likely to be scum, and the fact that he's not lynched yet and I'm town makes it seem even more likely. We don't have a ton of time to dick around here, so if you've got a case make it. And I guess you'd want to do it quick before Satan shows up in your hypothetical?

[Nominull]

Vanilla Town here too. Do you really think scum-Satan steps away from the thread for so long as to miss this opportunity to speed-lynch town-Fuzzy? Either scum-Satan is avoiding posting in the hopes that the lynch on scum-Fuzzy won't be able to get all three town, or town-Satan figures "what's the hurry?" and scum-Ree is using that as an excuse to waffle on scum-Fuzzy in the hopes that the lynch won't be able to get all three town. Either way, whichever of you is town needs to prove whichever of you is scum wrong.

[Nominull]

There isn't much to think about Klick. Some of that's not his fault, some of it is. But what can you do?

When you say "the lack of quick hammer suggests that both scum are already voting and town is unsure OR that Fuzzy is scum", there are three people voting, and one of them is Fuzzy. If both scum are already voting and Fuzzy isn't scum, that means I'm scum, and, well, I'm not. So Fuzzy is pretty well convicted in my eyes.

[Nominull]

Fuzzy being scum doesn't

necessarily

prove Klick is town. Bussing at LYLO is a courageous move, but not impossible. It looks good for him, though.

[Nominull]

THERE HAVE ONLY BEEN TWO NIGHTS.

lynch this scum

[Nominull]

VOTE: Fuzzy
VOTE: Fuzzy
VOTE: Fuzzy
VOTE: Fuzzy
VOTE: Fuzzy
VOTE: Fuzzy

Klick get back here and put your vote back on the lying scum.

[Nominull]

I swear Klick if it's Ree and Fuzzy and you just lost us the game by uncritically believing a PR claim made at LYLO I am gonna flip my lid

[Nominull]

we can't lose here. not after everything. not just because people aren't paying enough attention to play the game. that would be too sad, too sad.

[Nominull]

Yeah, the lesson here I think is when someone claims in LYLO you need to spend 30 seconds evaluating their claim rather than just believing them and dropping off the internet.

For what it's worth I would have lynched Satan though.