Newbie 1433 - Game Over

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Hey guys! I'm reading the thread now and I'll do a big intro post as soon as I've finished. That will likely be very early tomorrow morning, so don't wait up tonight. Just in case I'm voting someone,

Unvote

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A quick note from reading: bob, that Vi article is very good. I was around when the ABR one was written, though, and it was very controversial. IIRC it was almost written to justify ABR's playstyle, which kept getting him lynched.

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Ok guys, let's get started. In order to make this a good learning experience, and to avoid misapplying tells based on experience level (which I hate), I would like all of you to post the following:
1. How much mafia have you played on site? offsite?
2. How much mafia have you played in meatworld?
3. Have you read any onsite games for fun?
4. What is your favorite color?

I'll start:
I've been playing mafia for nearly 15 years, mostly in meatworld and mostly with children. I played some on mafiascum about five years ago and just recently returned. I read games that I am not in frequently and my favorite color is orange.

I am aware that Skelda and Ranawey have answered some of this already. Indulge me, if you don't mind.

On to business:

see reaction test in the glossary

"Reaction test" is not actually in your glossary. Would you care to define the term? For the record, if it is what I believe it to be, I despise them.

Ree and 2pac are definitely in the IGMEOY camp.

I'm comfortable with a
VOTE: archaebob
for playing the IC in lieu of scumhunting. Plus his quick reversal on 2pac and the early push on satan look like scum looking for an easy wagon.

Also I'm not a big fan of outing towntells but pushing nom for his personal issues with 2pac is just silly.

Nom- How about you post something about a player who isn't posting in embarrassing stereotypes.

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1 I've also played a bit in real life.

2. How much mafia have you played in meatworld?
I have never played in meatworld.

If you are unfamiliar with a term, ask and someone will define it for you. This is a learning game, after all.

On Archie- I dont see him acting like an IC as being scummy or townie,

This is very true. The teaching bit is certainly null by itself, and should be expected from those of us who have played a bit. But in my opinion (which could certainly be wrong!) it appears that he is using it as an excuse to post without posting anything that will move the game forward.

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Warning Newbies! The following is a great example of "Do as I say, not as I do." Imitating this play in another game will get you lynched or vigged nearly every time. If I survive the night, I'll explain why. Otherwise, I'm certain Mr. Ree and Nom will be happy to explain why what I'm about to do is intensely stupid as soon as Safety unlocks the thread for tomorrow.

Bob is currently at L-1, meaning one more vote on his wagon will make him swing.

Normally, I'd caution you about ending the day early, and advise you that you should get the town's consent and make sure nobody has anything they want to say before casting the final vote. In this case however:

1. The posting rate seems to be flagging and I think a couple of flips will breathe some life into the game and
2. I'm confident that Bob flips scum here. Maybe that's arrogant, but I'm nothing if not arrogant.

VOTE: Archaebob

That's what we call a hammer. Bob, you're dead.

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@ all- If you have a night action, you'll want to start thinking (but not speculating in thread) about who you're going to target.

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Oh come off it, bob, don't be a tit. I'll explain the whole thing a little later

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Going backwards...

Even if Sthar double vote was an accident , his eagerness to quick lynch Archie seem really bad.

Neither of these is true. Read on!

My vote on Sthar is bc she

I'm a dude. It says so every time I post. You are getting my name right, so kudos for that.

That's adorable, sthar8.

Now how about some reads?

Lol I thought you didn't like reaction tests...

Don't see much of a point to it either. It may have worked better at L-1.

Yeah I was aware that I was going to do this when I posted that. More accurately, I hate reaction tests that don't have an obvious point. Doing something "to see what would happen" is scummy as shit.

And you are correct that this one didn't work out, but it could have. Also it was super low risk and gave the newbies an example of a gambit. I pulled the trigger at L-2 in order to avoid any "I didn't read what a hammer is but I can vote too!" votes, which I have seen before with newbies.

And so, the gambit:

As most of you have already figured out, I was already voting for bob at the time of my "hammer." This means that even if he were at L-1, my vote could not lynch him because I was already on the wagon. I was perfectly aware that everything not game theory in post 166 was untrue. I did this in order to give you all an example of a gambit, to make you all scrutinize my play and possibly generate some discussion along those lines, and potentially to trick bob into claiming scum.

The idea was that since the votes on him had come fairly quickly, with two votes in a page, bob might be feeling some pressure. When confronted with a claim of hammer, I was hoping that he'd look at the most recent votecount and count the three votes for him on the page, coming to the conclusion that he was actually dead. Since the time between the hammer and the thread getting locked is variable this would put him in a rush to get in the last word, something that I think bob would likely want to do. Specifically, I was hoping that he would be annoyed at being caught by what he would perceive to be bad play, and would spend his twilight post yelling fuckwords at me and telling me that I merely got lucky in catching him.

Now, there was very little chance of this working. Bob's IC posts, if nothing else, indicate that he likes to play very factually. I would guess that he usually carefully checks everything before discussing it in thread. I was hoping the pressure and the clock would overcome this, obviously that didn't happen. However, the potential ideal reward and even the discussion that would be generated if I failed far outweighed the negligible risk I would be incurring, and even failure wouldn't actually hurt the town. Plus I've been playing somewhat experimentally lately.

Result: Bob did not claim scum, and he was not fooled by the fakehammer. He did get a little panicky, and I'll be analyzing some of his response post a little later. He certainly did not fail, but it's not really a test you can pass.

Questions? Comments? Votes for me?

Thor had a tantrum all over my yard last night, and I've gotta go clean it up. I'll be back later to talk about bobby.

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@sthar
I don't know why your voice in my head sounds like a kid.

Young at heart?

I volunteer with kids often and my work environment is quite informal, so youthful phrasing might be sneaking into my vernacular.

I've been told before that my diction is indicative the other way. And my baby brother (who just started playing mafia) had his 21st birthday a week ago.

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Right, because it would have been super productive to explain exactly how to make a gambit work right before trying one.

Tell you what, fuzzy. Go ahead and explain to us all exactly how my gambit fits a scum win condition.

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EBWOP the above was directed at fuzzy.

Sthar, I really like that. Had you actually lynched him, I would have been outraged, but as it stands I think it reveals a lot about how quick to accuse some people are. At least one of the people who immediately voted for you is probably scum.

Yeah that's the silver lining to failing at this kind of gambit. I find that attacks on me are a lot easier to analyze because there are fewer variables.

For the record, if I had quicklynched bob I

absolutely

should have been lynched the next day. It probably would put the town in LYLO, but having player that stupid survive until then practically loses the game for town anyway.

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Even in your explanation of your gambit you say it was a reaction test so you cant play it off as a pure gambit ( even if it was not). You have lied and contridicted yourself which from I know is scummy.

First sentence: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Can you rephrase?
Second sentence: It is very true that it is generally anti-town to lie, and that catching a liar is often the same as catching scum. There are exceptions to every rule, though, and to find them you need to think about the motivations behind the play. And, much like in any art, you shouldn't break the rules until you are experienced enough to know how to do it correctly and for gain.

#238 makes my teeth hurt. On the one hand, Bob is entirely correct that pursuing associative tells on day 1 is generally a waste of time. On the other, he presented information in his defense, including WIFOM logic, as part of a teaching post, which I find terribly scummy.

@sthar8
Yo hop on my Winnebago son, put those hammer-pants back on and lets get to stomping. We st8 ballin'!!

The killing comes soon enough. All the extra bits will be valuable in the coming days.

Also I'm not a big fan of outing towntells but pushing nom for his personal issues with 2pac is just silly.

Nom- How about you post something about a player who isn't posting in embarrassing stereotypes.

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Why haven't you followed up on this playa?

Which? The idea that voting Nom for not liking you is silly? Because silly ≠ scummy. I don't like defending people whose alignment I don't know, but if we get close to a Nom lynch on that basis I'll make myself heard. Until then, anybody who wants to keep acting the fool is just generating more content for me to analyze.

Or the suggestion that Nom do something not related to you? If that's the one, then because if I'm reading him correctly he'll come around eventually. Whether he's scum or town, he legitimately believes that what he's doing is correct, and I agree with the principle if not the execution. At some point the two of you will reach a compromise or one of you will replace out. Either way, I'm not going to waste much time on an issue that reads null from both sides and has no game relevance. These things tend to work themselves out.

Pac, can you refrain from posting actual verse? The vernacular is clearly not your natural writing style and forcing it into a structure is degrading the impact and meaning. I'd be ok with a rhyme or two as a signature, but please don't put anything game relevant into the structure of a song. 262 hits the mix just about right.

And yet you think I'm scummy for taking things a step further and actually pressuring him to change with my vote.

All else aside, you understand that Nom's moral defender stance makes voting pressure absolutely worthless here, right? If he were to get lynched for refusing to play with pac, it would be a psychological win: he'd be standing up for his beliefs in the face of persecution. He'd be sacrificing the win on the altar of Right.

@Satan and Skelda- Please don't put your responses into the quote. That's a bitch and a half to read. If you really need to go sentence by sentence, number your points.

@ Mr. Ree- excited to hear it, as I'm suffering from a lack of conviction on this one.

My current top 3, in no particular order:

Bob- Still gets a spot. Still looks like he's looking for an easy wagon, and I still don't see much scumhunting, which he should be capable of. His argument on Nominull was massively hypocritical, and he appears to be more concerned with his appearance than anything else.

Fuzzy- Mixed reads. As Mr. Ree said "not sure if new or scum." Particularly, seems to be playing a surface game of rules without any motive analysis. This often indicates lazy scum, as they are already aware of everyone's motives. Also seems a little sheepy, which could also go either way.

Skelda- This one's pure 100% Colombian VCA. Skelda's vote appears to be made of rubber, and it's bouncing in a pattern. Second on the wagon twice and third once earns a reread and an FOS.

I'm not ready to lynch anybody yet, but my vote stays where it is.

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Apologies, guys. This weekend is the prerelease for the new Magic set, which means I'm working 34 hours in three days. Usually these things are slow enough that I can still post, but it's been uncharacteristically rough this weekend. I'll catch up tomorrow.

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Tomorrow has come and gone: where is sthar8?

Catching up. You guys generated like nine pages of stuff while I was gone. While thats really great in terms on info gained, sifting it is not a zero time activity.

Reg- Login info is almost never going to be relevant. Equally, win percentages are influenced by so many variables that trying to draw conclusions from them about playstyle or skill is nigh impossible.

Ree- I think you're mistaking anti-town for scummy in Nom's case.

Pac- Argument from repetition is scummy as shit, plus it's annoying. When someone asks why you hold an opinion, repeating that you hold that opinion does not qualify as an answer.

Reg vs Ree and Nom vs Pac are reading like townfights to me. They're generating a lot of noise in the thread for very little gain. Who benefits from that? Skeldascum certainly does, Fuzzyscum might. I don't think Satan is scum, and I've got a hard townread on ran.

Looks like Skelda is the overlap between my townreads so:

VOTE: Skelda

My read on you isn't very strong, but you're getting POE'd a little bit. Plus your voting record is scummy as hell and your defense to that was not up to snuff. If you're scum you're doing a decent job, if you're town then you need to be less sheepy.

I'd be willing to move my vote at deadline to avoid no lynch, but I want it on record that lynching either nom or pac today would essentially be policy lynches and I believe them to be suboptimal.

p-edit Calm your shit, ree.

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EBWOP: Also, yes, claims are in order.

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You.

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Serious answer: I won't be answering that question barring a convincing claim or impending deadline. If there's scum in the two, I want them sweating as long as possible.

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^ Out of character. (p-edit: directed at satan)

Also I'm here for a bit if anyone wants to discuss a lynch or claims. Deadline is at 6:00 am my time, so we need to have everything sorted in 12 hours or so if we're relying on me for a tiebreaker. Alternatively, you could all lynch skelda, in which case I don't care what time you do it. Just be aware that if my vote needs to move, 3:00 am my time is about the latest that will be happening.

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From what?

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Reg vs Ree and Nom vs Pac are reading like townfights to me. They're generating a lot of noise in the thread for very little gain. Who benefits from that? Skeldascum certainly does, Fuzzyscum might. I don't think Satan is scum, and I've got a hard townread on ran.

Actually no, 2Pac hasn't made a "lot of noise" so this entire thing is logically unsound. Please read my case against him, please ISO him.

Please quit acting like a spoiled child. I've read your case, and while it is possible that 2pac is scum, it is also possible that you are reading too far into things that have a very simple explanation. If you try a little reading comprehension, what I said was that the

argument

was generating a lot of noise in thread. Given the number of posts regarding the topic so far, I don't think that's a contestable issue.

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Sthar, the simple explanation is that he's scum that was actively lurking. It's the most probable scenario by a long way, lets assess either;

1) He read from page 19 to page 22 including my detailed case on him, drafted and posted his response within 17 minutes after randomly logging on at the exact same time that I had logged on to post my case on him or:

2) That he has been monitoring the thread, saw a case on him and instantly jumped in to defend himself.

It's 2) by a long way.

And in what way is "There being a lot of conversation and noise about him" a town-tell for him? It's not, especially if you think Nom and I are town.

You're reading cause and effect where none exists. I said A. "I'm reading these arguments as town v town fights" and B. "They are generating a lot of noise." I never suggested that B implies A. And two players arguing certainly does not imply that one of them is scum.

Further, Pac's timing on that post is consistent with his usual posting. It is possible that he was already close to caught up reading, and his post is in reply to only things on that page, so its possible he hadn't read anything else at all.

All that said, my read on him is close to null.

I will be around for 10 more minutes, at which time I will hammer to avoid a no-lynch.

(p-edit: Nevermind, going to bed now.)

I toyed with the idea of withholding the hammer unless you apologized for your behavior, but I won't punish the whole town for your poor manners. You should seriously consider apologizing, though.