Newbie 1436 ~ Game Over

[Wisdom]

Hello.

I had read until around page 15 and I was certain the scumteam is Gravija and Sakura, but apparently Gravija was town. My only other scumread so far is Cabd, everyone else looks town.

Reading the rest soon.

[Wisdom]

k, caught up.

First of all, everyone should move off my wagon because you do not want to lynch me.

agi is conftown since there's no counterclaim, which makes Sakura conftown too. The latter is a huge relief because I was completely certain she's scum until I saw the claim.
This leaves {Cabd, ffery, ns, Bert}.

ns is my strongest townread. This is without a doubt his towngame - he tunnels, he gets aggressive and loud, he insists when he thinks he has found scum even if everyone else does not agree. He is not able to emulate these things at this level as scum yet, in fact the only time he did so was in a game that he had forgotten he's scum.

ffery gives me the impression she's town, though I'm wary because I have not played with scum-ffery. There are some things I don't like, such as how certain she was that notscience was wrong about Sakura/Cabd - given the earlier paranoia discussion, you'd think she would think twice. Though maybe she didn't anticipate Sakura gambitting, which admittedly surprised me too. Also, I don't like her intent to hammer my slot when there has been no claim. I want her to explain why she wanted to hammer over waiting for a replacement.

Bert

looks

town. I'd normally instantly call him obvtown, however he managed to fool me lately so I don't want to do so. He's apparently very good at emulating his "gut gut sheep cuteness hahahaha" playstyle as scum, so I'm paranoid about him. Some of his exchanges with Cabd remind me of exchanges he had with serra in Mala's Castle game. Could easily be scum, though I can't find something really damning about him.

Cabd is scum. I got that feeling from the first moment he replaced in, and despite shaking it off thinking that it might just be that I am annoyed by his arrogance, it kept coming back. During the gambit session with Sakura I was thinking they're both scum and they set up the gambits during the night, which would be the only thing that could explain how Sakura decided to gambit like that. Apparently not, but Cabd was still scum-gambitting there and I know exactly what he was doing. He has also pushed for the lynch of my slot, even encouraging people to lynch it without waiting for a replacement - you'd think that someone who has mentioned the possibility of a doctor like three times and even asked for the doctor to claim would wait for someone in this slot to claim before lynching it. Nope.

VOTE: Cabd

Get off my wagon and lynch the scumfuck. This game is pretty much won.

[Wisdom]

Unless you manage to change it every game, I doubt that will happen.

[Wisdom]

Sakura, one of Bert/ffery is his buddy. Bert seems more likely.

[Wisdom]

What do you think him trying to assert himself into the conftown block when he isn't

I think he has boasted a couple of times about winning as scum by "conftowning" himself.

[Wisdom]

But the gambit thing making him "conftown" is what pings

It doesn't make him conftown at all. Think a little, there was a way to actually

know

that Sakura was not telling the truth about being a cop.

[Wisdom]

What's better Sakura, push someone who might not get lynched because of PR actions, or get "conftown" and figure out the PRs?

[Wisdom]

Stop playing dumb, you know exactly how.

[Wisdom]

Cabd, explain the "save her the replacement"-esque push on a possible doctor slot?

[Wisdom]

Not only Cabd knows better than the lot of you, but he had also posted a few times about how the doctor should/shouldn't claim. It makes absolutely no sense he'd want to lynch a possible doc slot like that.

[Wisdom]

Mario is doing the "newbie who got a scum pm and got the fuck pegged out of them" dance, can we PLEASE lynch it now?

I mean, seriously? Don't tell me he has not seen newbtown replacing out before - yet he acts as if it's somehow an extra scumtell that he can use to push a quicklynch before a real replacement comes. There is a reason he does that.

[Wisdom]

What is that supposed to mean? I don't remember you expressing a scumread on Kaze?

[Wisdom]

Yet you're not voting Cabd, because..?

[Wisdom]

Oh sorry, I missed your vote somehow.

[Wisdom]

@ffery
That doesn't sound like a scumread that would "outweigh setup spec", does it?

[Wisdom]

So you're telling me that a newbie replacing out because the game is 54 pages is alignment indicative? So alignment indicative that you don't care you might be lynching a PR?

[Wisdom]

@ffery
Does that mean you thought someone is a doctor?

[Wisdom]

And despite thinking we're in that setup you did not understand what Cabd was doing?

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I do have a reason in mind. You're his buddy.

[Wisdom]

What is the obvious then?

[Wisdom]

I got that; I don't buy it.

[Wisdom]

I didn't notice any such tells, mind quoting?

[Wisdom]

Yeah ns was being sarcastic because sakura is being stupid.

[Wisdom]

Sakura did you still not figure out how cabd knew?

[Wisdom]

And what? You thought ffery is claiming doc? Are you even reading?

[Wisdom]

@agi
You are a cop. There are two possible setups with a cop. Look at them, and think how Cabd could have known for a fact that Sakura was lying about being a cop and therefore exploit that to the pseudo-conftown status he has gotten.

I'd appreciate if you guys don't make me spell it out more than I have already.

[Wisdom]

Not exactly. But you have the right idea.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, sure you don't get it.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure your buddy knows everything already, so if Sakura and agi still somehow don't get it, I'll spell it out.

Also, you didn't answer to 1374.

[Wisdom]

Oh, and you're sure enough that I'm scum that you'll have no objections to town powerfucking you into the ground tomorrow if you're wrong, right?

Tomorrow we will most likely have a guilty on your buddy, so yeah.

[Wisdom]

AtE isn't going to help you.

[Wisdom]

Don't you think you used Sakura enough? But then again you have no other way out right now.

[Wisdom]

So he couldn't have known Sak wasn't a cop. ???

Sigh.
It's called "roleblocking".

[Wisdom]

Hm?

[Wisdom]

Good, now hammer him

[Wisdom]

Can you share these thoughts with us?

[Wisdom]

I cannot believe the stupidity of this town.

I'm the fucking doctor, do you still not get it? I

know

they have a roleblocker.

Fucking lynch Cabd before he manages to convince the town, he is capable of it.

[Wisdom]

If he had been Scum who knew I wasn't the cop, he would have proceeded and pushed me for having a different read on him than usual,

No, Sakura, stop being stupid for a second. Think from Cabd's PoV. It is much better for him to gain a "conf-town" status than try to push a lynch that he isn't even sure will make happen.

[Wisdom]

Nah, you just don't like me pegging you. Too fucking bad.

[Wisdom]

I thought you were calling me scum? Now I'm confbiased?

[Wisdom]

Oh, and sakura, your gambit was good, it got correct results, and don't fault yourself that these idiots don't take it for what it was. You can't cure this brand of stubborn no matter how hard you try.

Sakura, if you don't see this is desperate manipulation because he knows that he still has you with this, I don't know what can save you.

[Wisdom]

Bullshit. You're still AtEing by posting "I will self-hammer" in every post. I'm not about to let you succeed.

[Wisdom]

I don't see why not, Sakura keeps believing your lies and even agi said that he wants to meta me. You've fooled ffery numerous times, so yeah. You can still crawl out of it.

On another note, you keep slipping and showing that you know I'm town. Why'd you sigbet me if you thought I'm scum?

[Wisdom]

ns is not claiming doctor, unless he wants to confirm himself as cabd's buddy.

[Wisdom]

What's the purpose of repeating that in every post if not to AtE the fuck out of everyone, Cabd?

[Wisdom]

Seeing as you're doing these things so they actually don't lynch you, yeah.

[Wisdom]

Nice try but those threats don't work on me. You're caught scum and you're flailing.

pedit: So that we think she isn't? WIFOM? Tons of reasons.

[Wisdom]

Although tbh I think she would have hammered you earlier for cred. Stalling so much is a bit troubling.

But those are worries for tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

Your confirmation bias, alongside notsci's shittunnels and bert's fucking waffles, are going to lose us the game.

If all those are town, who is scum?
More slipping.

[Wisdom]

She's not stalling, she's waiting. That's what happens when there's a claim that hasn't had a chance to be counterclaimed. Mafia 101. No lynch until all CC potentials are done.

I'm talking about before I claimed. She was stalling so she can "re-ISO and let some thoughts percolate". I'm feeling that as your buddy she would have hammered you there.

[Wisdom]

Your confirmation bias, alongside notsci's shittunnels and bert's fucking waffles, are going to lose us the game.

If all those are town, who is scum?
More slipping.

My flip is going to feel so good and I am going to rub it in your arrogant fucking face.

No, answer me. I'm confbiased, ns is tunneling and Bert is waffling. That means you are calling everyone town. Who is scum then?

[Wisdom]

You said that Bert's waffling (along with my confbias and ns's tunneling) will cost the game. That means you're calling them town, so what does it matter if scum waffles?

[Wisdom]

Cabd is scum, sakura.

[Wisdom]

How do you not see it? They roleblocked you and he knew you're bluffing. It's exactly the kind of chance a scum player like cabd needed.

[Wisdom]

If they blocked you he knew you had nothing on him.

[Wisdom]

Oh nvm I got what you're saying. Still, how do you find it more likely that he would push you over doing a gambit that not only would give him strong towncred, but also help him figure out the actual PRs?

[Wisdom]

It looked like he was just faking it to me. He dropped the gambit after everyone except agi had posted without counterclaiming.

[Wisdom]

But sakura, apart from that. Cabd is not an emotional player, the only reason he keeps ate'ing this hard is to appeal to you. He knows very well that it's something you do as town and that it will make you keep believing he's town. You can't possibly tell me that you don't see this.

[Wisdom]

Because you're his only chance to survive. Bert already stated he might sheep you and agi might also do.

[Wisdom]

You're still not seeing this from scum PoV. It's far more important to Cabd to get the town cred that he got from that gambit (especially if he is the roleblocker) AND learn who the actual PRs are (if someone counterclaimed him, he could just argue he was gambitting, like he did when he dropped the gambit) than it is to simply push a lynch on you which wasn't even guaranteed to succeed. Even more so if the person he uses the gambit on is someone he can manipulate.

[Wisdom]

Bert what's with the fencesitting? On one line you state you don't like Sakura's Cabd townread and in the other you say you don't like my claim. Clarify your stance.

pedit: I answered that already. Cabd is not an emotional player, the sole purpose is to appeal to Sakura who is an emotional player and flails similarly. Possibly to agi too, yes.

[Wisdom]

ffery, you know him more than we do. Is it logical for him to flail like that?

[Wisdom]

Also, Wisdom, I'm just 1 person, he doesn't need to appeal to me, im not even voting him and already stated that I will never vote him.

There was nothing else he could do though, and he had to try something as a last resort. He knows he can't deal with me (last time I pegged him he went all apathetic about the game) so he tried to appeal to you to convince the others.

[Wisdom]

Because i'm the shoe in lynch at LYLO. And that will lose the game. It's better to lynch me now (hurry the fuck up notscience) and go from there tomorrow.

So instead of trying to lynch scum, which would put us at NOT-LYLO tomorrow, you prefer to suicide? How will that help town?

[Wisdom]

The odds of mislynching today and then lynching me tomorrow are non-zero and I don't like those odds.

The odds of mislynching tomorrow are not zero either. If you are actually town, this is really stupid and I don't think you are stupid.

[Wisdom]

ns who is Cabd's buddy?

[Wisdom]

Bert or Ffery?

[Wisdom]

Why is Bert scummy?

[Wisdom]

agi

[Wisdom]

ffery-notscience
ffery-bert

Which do you find more likely from these two?

[Wisdom]

But ffery cannot be scum otherwise she'd have already hammered Cabd which means...

Not necessarily. In fact I think she would have hammered Cabd more easily if she was scum with Cabd.

[Wisdom]

Why? She could be scum with Bert/ns and still delay the hammer. Bringing it down and stopping discussion would gain her negative points.

[Wisdom]

I'm not saying it isn't possible. Everything is WIFOM - ffery maybe didn't hammer because she thought we would expect her to hammer if she's scum.

[Wisdom]

Anyway, this is all useless right now. We lynch Cabd, hopefully he is the roleblocker and we get another investigation. If not, we/you will find Cabd's buddy tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

She did want to lynch my slot earlier though - she didn't do that for Cabd.

If Cabd flips town, we'll reevaluate. I don't see that happening at all though.

[Wisdom]

I had mostly used Andrius' reads to find associations. I think Cabd's reads had also helped.

[Wisdom]

Cabd's probably trolling, relax.

[Wisdom]

If I'm not around tomorrow and Cabd is actually not trolling, Bert/ffery is my top guess. ns really does not look like scum.

[Wisdom]

I gave reasoning in my first reads. His play today didn't change anything.

[Wisdom]

I don't see why not.

[Wisdom]

Why would they change anything?

I still expect Cabd to flip scum, we're doomed if he's actually town.

[Wisdom]

No because he was scummy as fuck and the actual scum have hidden very well.

[Wisdom]

There are people who enjoy trolling post-hammer. I do it too as scum.

[Wisdom]

It's enough WIFOM as it is, why would you need to do that?

[Wisdom]

Well Wisdom since you're so certain, unless he flips scum you'll get flashlynched tomorrow and you flip town then it's game over... all because of your silly death tunnel on town.

I lynch who is most likely to be scum. It's not my fault if town play like this.

[Wisdom]

@Sakura
Amished tell works only on newbies that don't know what it is.

[Wisdom]

Yeah sure, now it's my fault. Enjoy your flashwagon tomorrow, wisdom.

Ofc it's your fault. Town look for scum instead of AtE'ing and self-lynching like you do.

[Wisdom]

You didn't try to convince me otherwise, did you?

[Wisdom]

And I don't get the Castle reference - I had two out of three scum pegged there.

[Wisdom]

You didn't try to convince me otherwise, did you?

I did actually, but you were so sure i was scum. You came in, saw notsci derptunneling, and joined him.

Enjoy lylo!

No, you didn't, you kept saying that I am scum and then went all defeatist and "lynch me" instead of trying to figure who is scum and who isn't.

[Wisdom]

Sakura it's not like I lynched him on my own. If I was so wrong, why nobody corrected me? Probably that means that I wasn't wrong at all, Cabd was actually scummy.

[Wisdom]

You weren't convincing enough, I was feeling you were just being manipulated by him.

[Wisdom]

Because it would take great skill for him to emulate his town play so well. I don't think he has reached such levels yet. I could be wrong.

[Wisdom]

About ns. What makes no sense?

[Wisdom]

Did he stubbornly 1v1 someone, forcing him to answer questions and stuff? Like he did to you here?

[Wisdom]

Look at his ISO involving titus on day one

Eh I don't think his accusations have the intensity they do when he's town. He calls bullshit on what he thinks comes from scum and is loud about it, it seemed like he mostly wanted to make others vote Titus there.
Anyway I can't judge from games I have not been in.

[Wisdom]

You could have tried to convince me you're town without suiciding. But instead you gave up the moment I voted you and limited your posting to calling me scum and posting nonsense.

[Wisdom]

My head? I'll go read the game, but I think it's notscience and Wisdom, from notscience's really tunnely play D1 where he juts avoided interactino other than CABD IS SCUM, HERE'S A CASE, TSO IS SCUM, HERE"S A CASE.

This is bullshit, notscience does this tunnely play as town and you know it.

Head: Wisdom's claim was fake and last-minute he claimed while not even being at lynch -1, because he wants us to join the Cabd wagon and end the day ASAP. He literally went "IM THE DOC, GO LYNCH CABD NOW OR YOURE STUPID" It was lacking that passion that I usually see in him, that's an intuitive thing

wtf is this? I softclaimed from my first posts and I expected everyone to figure it out but Sakura and agi (and even you, who talked about Trackers) kept not understanding it and wanted me to spell it out. What choice did I have?

[Wisdom]

This looks like Bert/ffery. Sakura stated she thinks it's notscience and me so Bert also tries to suspect notscience and me. Unless it's actually Bert/ns and Bert hopes I'll be the mislynch over ns.

[Wisdom]

@ns
Who is scum now?

[Wisdom]

Actually everyone should do a list with who they think scum is like this:

notscience > Wisdom > Bert

> ffery

and then explain why.

Mine:

Bert > ffery > notscience

Bert looks like he opportunistically wants to push myself and notscience, even to the point of changing the context of my claim and misrepping notscience's meta. All this after Sakura claims that she thinks it's me and notscience. He focuses too much on apologising about lynching Cabd instead of moving on - that's because of the guilty conscience. Town doesn't have to apologise, Cabd was just scummy and was literally asking to be lynched.

Between ffery and ns, I think it's ffery. I still have not forgotten about her intent to hammer on my slot before anyone could claim, and I don't buy her excuses about thinking someone else is a doc. She kept the day going instead of hammering Cabd for too long yesterday, probably because she was too afraid to hammer town and deal with the consequences - that didn't stop her from subtly encouraging Cabd's lynch with posts like "Cabd probably did this to appeal to me too" and "I don't know what he's doing with the self-votes" and stuff.

notscience has just seemed town but I don't know at this point. I could be wrong. I want to see what he's going to do now.

[Wisdom]

This is bullshit, notscience does this tunnely play as town and you know it.

Notsci did his usual town play in my mini normal. He was scum. Giving him a free meta pass is bad.

I already answered that when Cabd posted it. His play in his mini normal did not look like his play here.

[Wisdom]

You kept saying "possible Doctor slot"

I said that you do not want to lynch me and you should get the fuck off my wagon. (Because I'm the doc, duh)
I said that I know how Cabd could have known Sakura was lying (hint that I knew there's a Roleblocker)
I told agi to go look at the possible setups with a Cop and think what I could be meaning.

Despite all this, they were still not getting it and Sakura kept saying that I am scum instead. I had no choice but to claim properly.

[Wisdom]

but it's funny that I just "started" suspecting ns and you.

Where did I say that you "started"?
Keep misrepping.

[Wisdom]

And now a vote. Thanks for scumclaiming.

VOTE: Bert

[Wisdom]

Eh I don't think his accusations have the intensity they do when he's town. He calls bullshit on what he thinks comes from scum and is loud about it, it seemed like he mostly wanted to make others vote Titus there.

Anyway I can't judge from games I have not been in.

Eh I don't think his accusations have the intensity they do when he's town. He calls bullshit on what he thinks comes from scum and is loud about it, it seemed like he mostly wanted to make others vote Titus there.

Anyway I can't judge from games I have not been in.

Way to completely disregard the rest of this quote.

[Wisdom]

I am not misrepping ns's meta. ns himself has said that he is changing his meta and meta-dodging.

Someone saying they will change their meta does not mean that they will be able to accurately emulate their townplay as scum to the point ns has done.

[Wisdom]

Do what I said in 1801 please

[Wisdom]

notscience's scum game has improved. Not to the point of emulating his town game, these 1v1 and this frustration when he feels people don't understand his scum reads. These are some things that just cannot be faked by scum that easily.

You are scum, Bert. Your reasons for "suspecting" me are bullshit like "Sakura fakeclaimed doc in some random game, therefore you claiming doc means you're scum" and you have been setting up this since yesterday with your "i dont like cabd but i dont like wisdom's claim either" fencesitting.

The only way you're not scum is ffery/ns and I just don't see that as possible.

[Wisdom]

If you had to decide between me and ffery, who would it be?

[Wisdom]

Read 1801, Bert.

[Wisdom]

ns, if you're not Bert's buddy, then one of us has to be. You don't seem to care about it.

[Wisdom]

Bert, I find it very unlikely that he has managed to emulate his towngame so good. That doesn't mean that it's impossible and that I can't have been fooled.

[Wisdom]

Using RL as an excuse is commonly done by scum and is in no way dirty play.

[Wisdom]

Say that Bert is lynched and Sakura dies, who will you vote in 3p lylo?

[Wisdom]

Then do.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I think ffery/ns can be ruled out now. Although since both me and Bert were present there's a tiny chance they didn't risk a quickhammer attempt in case there was a quick unvote.

[Wisdom]

SERIOUSLY making the first move in LYLO Nacho always taught me as scum is VERY VERY BAD AND LIKELY TO MAKE PEOPLE PARANOID

This reads like you did it on purpose exactly because you knew scum wouldn't do it.

And you're frustrated because it didn't work.

[Wisdom]

I offer you every single quick answer you can get, hours of time to talk, I have nothing eles to offer other than that. Anything you want, you want showdowns, you ask me to pick posts apart, I will do everything and show you what cannot be faked.

Like I HAVE to step it up, LYLO is the time to do that, there's no sitting back, hoping I'm doing well enough to help everyone.

I KNOW Wisdom is scum now since there's no hammer and ns and both you are here.

So wisdom is scum. I can talk to him like a TRUE 100% scum person he is.

That's exactly how I played in one of my first scum games. I begged the town to give me the chance to prove to them that I am town and kept saying that the person that was 1v1ing with him is confscum to me.

Check it out:

We're all here, and no quickhammers. This means either me or Gorckat is scum. And I am not. So, I am glad I took the right decision.

If I can prove to you guys I am town somehow, tell me. I think it should be pretty apparent.

[Wisdom]

You're pretty skilled at scum, Bert, I'll give you that. But you won't convince anyone here.

[Wisdom]

if not for that replacement Kaze would not be here now

I know right? If I had not come in you would have gotten the mislynch easily and would have pushed Cabd today. Too bad I ruined your plans.

[Wisdom]

after the way he has tunneled me

Way to misrep me. I simply stated you are my top scumread over the other two. I didn't even vote you. That's hardly a tunnel.

[Wisdom]

I voted you because your vote was not warranted and proved you're scum. Prior to your vote I had just expressed my scumread on you, but it was simply in comparison to my reads on the other two. I did not tunnel in any way.


Btw I guess you're claiming that ns is your buddy since you're buddying ffery so much, which is also unwarranted.

[Wisdom]

Why wouldn't he?

[Wisdom]

Hmm. Now he continues appealing to ffery after I pointed it out. Maybe it's on purpose after all.

[Wisdom]

Cabd knew you are scum in that game when he made those QT posts

[Wisdom]

Hmm. Now he continues appealing to ffery after I pointed it out. Maybe it's on purpose after all.

If you were town, you'd know this was on purpose. Yet you say "maybe"

lol....but you're scum, so....

and yet you say "maybe" and say you're town??

Ha, nice one

I don't know if you're doing it on purpose to hide your buddy or if ffery is town and you're appealing to her, nope.

[Wisdom]

Sakura ffs. Don't you fucking throw the game, Bert is obviously scum here.

[Wisdom]

Sakura seriously, I do not want to lose to Bert again. Don't be stupid now.

[Wisdom]

How was he obvtown? He was literally asking to be lynched. The difference is that both me and ns went after him because we genuinely thought he's scum, but look at how Bert pushed his lynch after he saw there was support.

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile ffery is lurking around waiting for you to vote me

[Wisdom]

Sakura, you're a person who tries to AtE with self-votes and whatnot. Cabd isn't, and it was not normal for him to such stuff. What to think if not that she tries to manipulate you?
Try to see this from my PoV. I know there's a roleblocker and I read the gambit he did to you. It instantly clicked that he had a way to know you're not the cop and I figured it's because of the blocker.
How was I supposed to see any of this as town? He didn't even try to convince me otherwise, he just called me scum.

[Wisdom]

she tries

he*

[Wisdom]

he's most likely trying to make you slip up.

I'm not even answering to his posts other than to point out his misreps and lies, how am I trying to make him slip?
Stop confbiasing and look at things as they are.

[Wisdom]

My gambit wasnt even supposed to pretend to be a cop with an inno on him, considering that wasnt even my intention at the start I HIGHLY doubt he even thought i was pulling a fake cop claim gambit.

I don't know what he did or why, I am telling you how I saw it when I had just learned that we're in the cop/doc/rb setup. It all clicked together.

[Wisdom]

He isn't misrepping you, but how cute, i love how you're misrepping him by saying that.

So saying that I tunneled on him is not a misrep?

[Wisdom]

however you and NS kept attacking him like wtf

Because he was obvscum to me. I was certain I had figured out what exactly he had been doing and I was not about to let him escape. It's not my fault sometimes town do such anti-town things.

[Wisdom]

I suppose so, but I don't have a scum role PM.

[Wisdom]

Oh so now it's wisdom, ffery? Do explain.

[Wisdom]

I don't stay in BLs for long

[Wisdom]

There's no flexibility at all in your stance, and that bothers me. You're not taking in the stuff that Bert posts. You're just reflecting it right back at him with "you're scum" stamped on it. notsci and I could be the scum team and you're not even entertaining that as a possibility, you're totally focused on Bert plus one of us, probably me.

The chance you're scum with ns is tiny as you've had chances to quickhammer and didn't do it. Bert is confscum to me, his vote on me is based on a misrep and after that he has just AtE'd all over the place knowing that he has the upper hand because of my derp yesterday.

[Wisdom]

all wisdom's done is not town-motivated at all, he's trying to be manipulative, he needs rope.

Goddamnit Sakura stop being stupid. I don't try to manipulate anyone, I say things as I see them. Cabd was scummy, you might disagree but the majority of the town thought he is scummy so you have to understand that it is not something only I saw. I have been trying to lynch obvscum the whole time, I was wrong, but it fucking happens and you know it. Don't throw the game over a mistake I made and don't fucking let Bert have this win. He's fucking awesome at playing scum, it was proven in Castle. All his AtE and his buddying is what is manipulating, not me.

[Wisdom]

I'm not even scum, so

[Wisdom]

Ffery is most likely town

Explain this, ns. The last time I checked you said you had to reread and you didn't know who is scum and who isn't. What's up now?

[Wisdom]

She actually is lurking. If she is Bert's buddy, she's waiting for Sakura to vote me so they can win. She first questioned Bert, then changed her mind to "It's probably Wisdom".

Your transition does not make any sense either. You've gone from "Bert is obvscum, buddy is one of the other two" to "Wisdom is scum and he's bussing". Almost like you don't want to push Bert after all.

[Wisdom]

She is not taking stances and she is practically waiting for things to happen. Yesterday she let the day going on despite hinting that she agrees with the Cabd lynch, effectively encouraging it but she wasn't hammering. Today she is simply waiting for the quickhammer.

You're not my pick for scum #2. ffery is.

[Wisdom]

Most likely. She used the paranoia from other games as an excuse.

[Wisdom]

Btw barring trolling or something, you/ffery is completely ruled out now since Bert is not online to unvote and you could have hammered me now.
Which leaves no doubt as to Bert's being scum.

[Wisdom]

Funny, Cabd never mentions paranoia in his reasons he townread her. In fact, his last use of the word paranoia was before D2- When he really was townreading her.

I was mostly referring to their exchange at the end of D2, where ffery kept insisting that it's warranted for her to be paranoid over him. I don't recall why Cabd was townreading her prior to that.

[Wisdom]

She is not taking stances and she is practically waiting for things to happen. Yesterday she let the day going on despite hinting that she agrees with the Cabd lynch, effectively encouraging it but she wasn't hammering. Today she is simply waiting for the quickhammer.

You're not my pick for scum #2. ffery is.

Hinting? Seriously?

Are you saying it's not true? You kept leaving posts such as agreements to Cabd AtE'ing to appeal to people and even said that he does it to appeal to you.

[Wisdom]

But you said she used that as a way to make herself seem town, when that wasn't the reasoning behind Cabd's townread of her.

Again, I was talking about how she used Cabd and her paranoia to look like she is town that was confused by Cabd's play. I was not talking about how she appealed to Cabd.

[Wisdom]

Maybe "hint" is not the proper word, my point is that you encouraged his lynch without actually lynching him, which would earn you negative points.

[Wisdom]

Nope, that was showing how you're lurking, both today and yesterday.

Even right now, you're trying to make people think I am scum but you're not actually voting me. And your excuses are the same as yesterday - "omg Im not sure". Yesterday it was about you wanting to think again and again about whether Cabd is scum (yet you never gave us any conclusion), and today you're all "i hate lylo" and "i cant decide" while at the same time showing clearly that its me you want lynched.

Your motive in both cases is to get the votes on the person you want lynched.

[Wisdom]

I've had the hammer stolen from me.

Nobody stole anything from you. You refused to hammer in 1450 after being asked to by both myself and agi.

[Wisdom]

And after you finished your "thought perlocation", you came up with this

My browser crashed and I lost a huge fucking post.

I'll reconstruct/finish it in a while but suffice it to say that with a couple of notable exceptions

Cabd has dumped a load of discredits onto most of the players in this game.

which is accusing Cabd and encouraging his lynch. You still don't hammer though.

[Wisdom]

Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

Oh really? And which posts are those exactly? What are my motivations?

[Wisdom]

That happened AFTER I claimed.

Your refusal in 1450 and the posts after was BEFORE I had claimed anything.

[Wisdom]

Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

Oh really? And which posts are those exactly? What are my motivations?

To spread wifom and try to give your partner (probably notsci, but there's a chance Bert's pulling one over on me) another viable mislynch target for tomorrow.

No, show me exactly which posts of mine have that intention and how you recognised that specific motivation over me trying to figure out who is scum.

[Wisdom]

That happened AFTER I claimed.

Your refusal in 1450 and the posts after was BEFORE I had claimed anything.

I am totally not seeing your point here.

Your waiting and not hammering had nothing to do with waiting for ns to claim at the time of your posting your refusal in 1450, since I had not claimed yet.

[Wisdom]

Your posts reveal your motivations pretty clearly.

Oh really? And which posts are those exactly? What are my motivations?

To spread wifom and try to give your partner (probably notsci, but there's a chance Bert's pulling one over on me) another viable mislynch target for tomorrow.

No, show me exactly which posts of mine have that intention and how you recognised that specific motivation over me trying to figure out who is scum.

Starting with 1968, pretty much every post you've made. I essentially affirmed in 1932 that I'll vote you today. That's the motivation for your attack. I doubt you think you'll actually get a wagon going on me today, but it's all good wifom for day 4.

I feel relieved and a lot more confident there will be a tomorrow thanks to your attack, though!

Bullshit, you're unable to explain your switch. You just randomly point at me with generic reasons such as "omg your scum motivation is so obvious but i cant explain why" and bet on the fact Sakura doesn't like me. Those reasons you're making up would only make sense if you knew I am scum. They don't make sense for town who try to understand who is town and who is scum.

Why would I get a wagon on you when your buddy has obvscummed? You're so caught that you don't even think before you post.

[Wisdom]

It's funny how you imply I will attack your posts when I've hardly done so. Good act there.

[Wisdom]

Before Cabd's flip, I went through Kaze's ISO basically looking for reasons to think you weren't lying for doc, when I should have been doing the exact opposite. On reread, there's really nothing in Kaze's posts that point to being a PR much less being doc, and his posts were more than hedgy enough for concern. I should have fucking hammered when I meant to.

More of your "I was reading/thinking (lurking)" that I don't care about. Next.

Then there's your attack on Cabd. You make noises about how most of town thought he was scum, but you very opportunistically turned 2nd tier suspicions on him into a bandwagon, and then basically nailed the coffin shut with your claim. Sakura is absolutely right that scum would know if there's a doc in this setup once agi claimed doc.

Again, you can only assume this from a PoV knowing that I am scum. There's no way town trying to figure scum out think that this is what I did over what I actually did. Which means you are scum trying to tie scum motivation to my actions. And yeah, Sakura is completely right but this is irrelevant to this game as I am actually the doctor.

And now, when you know that your lynch is all but sealed with my intent, you switch tactics from ending the game today to positioning your team for tomorrow. Your play has been way too tactical for it to be coming from a town-trying-to-figure-things-out perspective.

This doesn't make any sense since there have been no switches in my play today. I voted Bert after he obvscummed and then I tried to figure out who between you and ns is the buddy. Once again you're trying to make me look bad with things you know Sakura will agree with.

[Wisdom]

Not to mention, it makes literally no sense that I would wait till I was out of danger to claim doctor as opposed to doing it right away to escape the lynch. But no, somehow I did that to "nail the coffin shut". Bullshit, you both are trying desperately to tie some sort of scum motivation to my actions.

[Wisdom]

Hey ffery, tell me this;

You're claiming you're completely sure I'm scum and that you're not voting me because you want to talk with Sakura first.

Given Sakura will have to hammer me anyway for the lynch to go through, which means that you will get to talk with her anyway, why are you hesitating to vote me now?


Could it possibly be because notscience not hammering me will further confirm you are Bert's buddy?

[Wisdom]

Not to mention, it makes literally no sense that I would wait till I was out of danger to claim doctor as opposed to doing it right away to escape the lynch. But no, somehow I did that to "nail the coffin shut". Bullshit, you both are trying desperately to tie some sort of scum motivation to my actions.

Why claim if you can sway the lynch off you without claiming? You didn't have to claim in order to dismantle you wagon. You had to claim in order to rush Cabd's lynch through.

What reason did I have to rush it? I was already out of danger and the Cabd lynch would go through anyway. I didn't have any reason to claim. The only explanation is that I actually am the doctor, and had enough of agi's and Sakura's stupidity not figuring it out on their own.

[Wisdom]

If I could collapse my wagon without a claim, surely I could get Cabd lynched without one too. There's no reason I would unneccesarily claim and put more attention on me, unless I actually were what I am claiming.

Thanks for making it so easy though, your sudden switch and your unwarranted certainty have proved you're Bert's buddy. You thought that you have Sakura's support and the confidence made you slip and make this mistake.

[Wisdom]

Because she was accused of lurking so she had to feign something that resembles scumhunting.

[Wisdom]

Unbelievable how you guys let Bert manipulate you like that. Just lynch me already so this game can end

[Wisdom]

Yeah, it would. You would just lynch cabd in lylo instead.

[Wisdom]

@sakura re: my omgus
You're wrong. When my top scumread votes me in lylo with such contrived reasons like the ones Bert gave, I have no reason not to vote back. Even if I was wrong, I was around and ready to unvote if I sensed quickhammering coming. I'll link you to games I've done the same thing when I'm at a computer.

[Wisdom]

What changed my mind on that game was not your walls, it ess nacho's unbelievably accurate depiction of my mind. He completely nailed it when he described how I was unable to stop my tunneling despite being unsure.

[Wisdom]

Here, Sakura. The links point to the beginning of lylo for each game.

In this game I began lylo by declaring my scumread on one of the players, making it clear that he is the one I intend to vote, without voting him though. He proceeded to vote me, so I instantly voted him back, without any thoughts that he might be town.

In this lylo I wasn't quite sure who the scum is, but regardless I was voted by one of my suspects and I instantly OMGUS'd him instead of asking him to unvote or anything, because I was fairly certain that his sudden vote on me was unwarranted and confirmed he is scum.

In =12809#p4821896]this one, a townie voted me right when lylo began. He was my top suspect, so I instantly voted him back when I came to the thread. In this one I admittedly did make a comment about the fact that if he is town, we've lost the game.


Now compare those to this one, where after I had tunneled on Miss Destroyer for the whole game, I had a change of heart in lylo and supported they are town. When they came to the thread, they voted me. I was shouting at them to unvote for the remainder of the lylo, until I was hammered by the scum. What's the difference here? The difference here is that I had convinced myself that I was wrong about Miss Destroyer and I was feeling someone who is town is voting me and scum are going to hammer soon.


In the case of this game, Bert was my top scumread, I expressed that fact in my first posts of this day, and Bert placed an unwarranted vote on me, saying that "I was tunneling on him", which was a lie, since if that was the case I would have voted him. This made me even more confident that I was right about Bert so I voted him back. If he was town and I was wrong, we would lose anyway since scum would hammer me. If it was you, or notscience, or maybe even ffery, who had voted me, then I would probably would have reacted in the way you're describing. It was my top suspect who did so, not someone who had the potential to be town, so I didn't. And I was right.

[Wisdom]

In =12809#p4821896]this one,

fixed link

[Wisdom]

Unbelievable how you guys let Bert manipulate you like that. Just lynch me already so this game can end

Hm?

I'm fairly sure my VCA is pointing to a possible ns/Bert scumteam. But this post is giving me bad vibes.

I have not read your VCA, I posted that after skimming and seeing that everyone is pointing their finger at me as if I have been confscum'd by a cop.

[Wisdom]

Ok, I saw your VCA but I don't see how it points at Bert/ns. There are a few occasions where they both vote the same person, one next to another. This usually does not happen with scumbuddies.

Or look at this:

Vote: TSO -> This is for you, notscience.

when notscience was the only person on the TSO wagon and had been voting him since early. Doesn't feel scumbuddyish.


On the other hand, ffery did join the counterwagon Bert created (goodmorning), but hesitated and didn't do it instantly (see 419). Now this is a subtle way to join a wagon without the fear of getting linked to the one who started it, yet still participating in pushing it.

[Wisdom]

I couldn't care less about your excuses. The point is the VCA points to you being his buddy more than ns.

[Wisdom]

Nope

[Wisdom]

Yeah, no. My focus since Bert confscum'd has been to prove I am town because if I don't this game is over. At the same time, I've tried to figure out who is Bert's buddy.

[Wisdom]

3. His focus over the last 24 hours or so has been all about tomorrow when if he's town his priority HAS TO BE TODAY because if he's lynched there IS no tomorrow.

When the hell did I even talk about tomorrow? If you're gonna lie, at least make it less obvious.

[Wisdom]

I've tried to figure out who is Bert's buddy.

Incorrect, you're assuming Bert's buddy is ffery, you've ignored notscience all day.

Because it is ffery. notscience is still town.

[Wisdom]

Then fucking lynch me now. You're confbiased and we deserve to lose.

[Wisdom]

3. His focus over the last 24 hours or so has been all about tomorrow when if he's town his priority HAS TO BE TODAY because if he's lynched there IS no tomorrow.

When the hell did I even talk about tomorrow? If you're gonna lie, at least make it less obvious.

Focusing exclusively on partner-hunting when you are likelier to get lynched than the guy you have your vote on IS focusing on tomorrow.

I don't fucking care if I'm likelier to get lynched. I have found one scum and I want to confirm I have found the second.

[Wisdom]

I'm trying to work with you, I asked you how the VCA points to ns/bert and you're ignoring me and calling me scum. Maybe you see something I don't, because the only thing I see is ffery pushing me heavily out of nowhere, waiting until you vote me. But of course you don't see that and you're not willing to work with me, so why don't you just vote me off and end this game?

[Wisdom]

She's been pushing your slot since yesterday until you claimed Doc.

The almost non-existant pushing that she did yesterday cannot compare to the hard-tunneling she's doing now. She's searching for scum motivations to apply to my every action.

I didn't claim because I was confident everyone would understand it from my softclaims and get off the wagon. That way there was a chance, however tiny, that scum wouldn't realize I am the doc (I was feeling Cabd had figured it out and that's why he was pushing the lynch so hard before the slot could claim, but maybe his buddy had not figured out), and therefore I could save agi without being killed/blocked. Therefore agi would be able to get one more innocent/guilty, and that's how the game would be won. If people did not understand it and still wanted to lynch me, I'd claim properly. Which I did when you weren't getting my point against Cabd.

[Wisdom]

And again, if I was scum and wanted to fakeclaim doc, why the fuck not do it instantly and wait until I am out of danger? It doesn't make any sense.

[Wisdom]

you all can talk me through everything today

You have said this like 6 times now. We got it, you're super town.

[Wisdom]

Which interaction exactly?

[Wisdom]

That was @sakura. Learn to read.

[Wisdom]

Mario comes in, does nothing and replaces out, almost every time i replace a newbie in a newbie game I get a scum role PM, additionally Mario never mentioned being a Doc, if Mario was a real Doc he would've fought hard against his lynch instead of replacing out.

That's a stretch and you know it. Newbies don't know how to play PRs in their first time, much less at L-1 and after 60 pages.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom: Starts to soft claim, a real doc would have claimed at L-1 with intent not way later.

I wonder why do you even do VCA when you just keep seeing whatever you want. Real docs claim when they must claim, not when you'd like them to. I explained why I didn't claim right away in full, yet you're ignoring me.

[Wisdom]

And once again I fail to see how the VCA points to Bert/Wisdom. So what I've concluded is that you don't know to do VCA and you just conclude whatever you want and think that it somehow came from the VCA.

At least you've figured out Bert is scum.

[Wisdom]

Bert jumps on Kaze (Wisdom) when he asks to replace out. It's interesting, because he also doesn't show signs of worrying about a possible Doctor yet Wisdom's calling that out on ffery, selective scumhunting much?

I called out ffery AND Cabd because their pushes stood out. ffery wanted to hammer the slot and literally was stopped by my replacement and Cabd was pushing it and kept encouraging lynching before a replacement was found. Bert had been voting the slot too but it wasn't so blatant, plus I'm used to him sheeping people and not thinking very much so I didn't think that he had ill intent behind pushing the Kaze lynch at the time.

[Wisdom]

Sudden vote to ns? Seems like opportunistically jumping on scumbud because he's not in any immediate danger right after ffery's thoughts. Regardless of ns' alignment tho, it felt bad.

My understanding is that he wrongly thought ffery had a case on him (see 943), so he voted him in a "I liked the case and I'm sheeping" fashion. Not what I'd expect if notscience was the buddy, especially given ffery had zero points on notscience, and notscience's immediate response in 942 and 944 makes it even less likely.

[Wisdom]

So yeah, I'm still seeing Bert/ffery in this VCA. Bert hoped around between Kaze and notscience seeing if he can push either of them, stuck to Kaze when there was support, then followed me on Cabd after he saw I would be derailing my wagon. ffery did not vote anyone, kept fencesitting, intented to hammer my slot without a claim, then also followed me on Cabd in the sense of encouraging the lynch, but never voted him.


Sakura, however hard is it for you to realize it, I am still not scum. Try and see the VCA or even read the game again if you want, having in mind that the scumteam is Bert/ffery and see if it makes sense to you. Because that's the scumteam and you keep not seeing it because you're deadset that I have to be scum.

[Wisdom]

It's like everyone dissapeared.

Seeing as the game is stalling, I don't know what you expected. Either lynch me so it ends or lynch Bert so we can win.

[Wisdom]

Sure you can, vote me. ffery will be around to hammer me.

[Wisdom]

Just please don't ever claim that you can read me, because I'll be instantly linking this game.

[Wisdom]

ffery is not going to vote me, that will confirm she's Bert's buddy when notscience doesn't hammer me. She's waiting for you to vote.

pedit: yeah

[Wisdom]

If you don't undestand the facts and call them manipulation, it's your own problem.

[Wisdom]

Nope, that's just what will happen. Because you don't fucking listen. I asked you to do something and you ignored me again.

[Wisdom]

What you don't get is I'm not the one manipulating you here.