Micro 242: Les Miserables Mafia (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Right, so I'm going to be townhunting this game since it seems easier.

Elite, you say? Elite, may be. But Thenardier is a scum to me.

VOTE: Mhork

Srs.

One.

vote mhork

So Quick trying to vote with reason, that, sir, is treason!

Two.

For what it's worth; I don't like you. Another thing I don't get is how you don't want to put someone to L-2, but are okay with putting someone at L-1. Noted that you clearly back tracked after someone called you out. This all makes me twitch. I can't wait for others to comment in regards to it. Now Funky, you and I are going to have an interesting conversation in a bit. Everyone should consider voting Funky for his back pedal. <3

Three.

Mhork's post 30 I disliked, mainly because of the part where he says the odds are that funkybike is probably town but it's definitely worth pushing. I don't see how that works, first of all letting him know you actually think he's town let's him know your push on him is not something you truly believe in and thus should not concern him. Secondly it shows you're following an argument through voting you don't follow through reasoning. Why do such a thing?

My best candidate for four, though admittedly not as strong as I would prefer.

Maemuki might be a candidate for five, and if not, for four. This is mainly gut, though.

(I am number six, of course. )

Leaving {Mhork, funky, bv}. Mhork and funky don't look like scumbuddies, but they both look like scum, honestly. bv looks like a potential scumbuddy to either, but has stronger ties to Mhork.

Granted. I've skimmed all the longer posts that have happened since grimgroove began posting a ton, but needless to say, I like my vote where it is.

I'll give the posts a closer look later, but basically...
elle, shos, and Malakittens are strongly town. Grimgroove's fairly decently town, but I need to read his posts in more detail to be sure of it. Maemuki's town mainly by gut, funky looks like scum, Mhork also looks like scum but NOT scum bussing, and bv

also

looks like scum; my funky scumread is stronger, despite bv having more ties to Mhork.

[mastin2]

Can you define why shos is super town? What about Mae? As in reasons other than gut.

shos is town for solid town posting. His thought process looks town. His reads look town. His reasoning looks town. And, in contrast to what others have said, I thought the way he handled his "claim" (whether you consider it to be a claim or not, shos, it's still been taken by others to be one) was also town. Overall, he has the aura of a town poster.

Now, granted. He's not a hippie-flower-sunshine-goodie-townie. I can

see

him as scum, but I can't believe him to be scum. By which, I mean, his posting isn't perfect; there

are

some flaws in it. But the overall general vibe is that of a town poster. Again, I've skimmed, so when I reread in more detail, who knows? But most probably...not moving.

And, no. I can't define Mae as being town beyond gut

because it's gut

.

[mastin2]

Ok but how do you reconcile

gut

with people giving reasons for her being scum.

Arrogance?

I trust my guy more than I trust the reads of other people right now.

To what claim were you referring though? I feel like I missed something.

It's there, a few times. Would have to read in detail to find all of them, but there are a decent number of places it comes up.

[mastin2]

I'm especially interested in why you see bv as scum.

Half-POE, half overall weak posting that looks bad in general. bv's outside my townreads, and bv's posting is also minorly tripping my gut as scum-driven. Plus, his interactions aren't the greatest, either.

[mastin2]

Mastin is town. Now all he has to do is work with me! <3

Technically, you're working with me, since my slot was voting funky before yours was.

Could you give examples of what sparked that gut, at least? You don't have to explain why, but it is helpful to show us what did.

It's not any specific posts, though. I just get an overall vibe that Mae's town. It's like...I dunno. Mae's too casual, too relaxed, to be scum. As if Mae's not really concerned about looking town and knows already that they are town, if that makes sense.

I mean, yeah. There's not much in Mae's posting that looks town. But Mae just

feels

town.

[mastin2]

Lax posting isn't always town though. Scum likes to coast too.

Thing is, you're associating coasting and lax posting as being synonymous; they are not. Mae's posting isn't coasting. Beyond feeling like it, you can tell. Coasting is doing half-assed scumhunting--just enough to be below the radar. Mae's not doing that, as evident by being at L-1. Mae's posting distinctly is that of someone who doesn't give a damn. Now, admittedly, yes. It's possible that Mae's scum not giving a damn. (Possible, not probable.) But Mae sure as hell doesn't read that way to me.

mastin hun, is there a chance this is how you play as town too? perhaps you can link me to town games of yours?

Yes, it is; no, I can't. I've got 120+ games (hell, probably 130+ by now), and they're scattered throughout time and forum. There's a REASON I asked for help updating my wiki; it's because I've played in so many games that I've lost track of them.

Plus, going into MD theory a bit, I adjust my play every single game, to the circumstances. Sometimes, I'll strongly use reasons and intuition. Other times, I'll use mainly gut and instinctive reactions to things. It all depends from game to game, off of the context behind it. And going into MD theory even further, the border between logic and gut is thinner than most people think; I see them as two different aspects of the same entity, rather than two separate entities. I'll see something tripping my gut and try to think of reasonable explanations, and I'll ALSO gather evidence, process it, analyze it (all logic), but ultimately form my conclusion off of what I feel. (Gut.)

But in GENERAL, as scum I use logic a lot more. The reason being that as scum, I know the picture of the game much better overall, and thus, know how to make arguments that are more coherent. As town, my thought process is generally scattered and lacks focus. But as scum, having a much more clearly-defined objective, I can make a much better stance on things. There's a reason I used to half-joke that logic was a scumtell for me. And it's exactly that.

As town, I use gut a lot more. The reason largely being that my logic seems to lead me astray. I don't have that perfect process, so even if my train of thought is correct, I'll often come to the wrong conclusion if I'm working off of logic. Or something like that. I dunno, I guess it's just much easier for me to use gut as town than it is for me to use logic as town.

[mastin2]

These?

Mhork, I think your vote on Shos was very strange - it felt like sheeping while not completely understanding why. At least funky had the decency to quote what he thought was scummy. I said that already, but you conviniently didn't catch that.

You only voted after funky did. Which is the definition of sheeping. Are you following?

Also, I disagree almost 100% with Grimgroove's reads. I think that Ellie and Mhork sound... close, so to speak. I don't know if they've played a lot, or if this is just coincidence, but their interactions sound off.

...was it not obvious when I said he was bullshitting reasoning for thinking that funky was town on that one post?

And you only thought of that after funky posted? I find that unlikely. I'm not sure if you didn't understand my question (fine, I didn't use question marks, but the idea was there) or if you didn't want to understand.

Well, aside from looking incredibly town to me, they also have the potential to be solidly-based. I'm not sold on it (if I was, I'd be voting Mhork rather than funky), but it's definitely something I'm watching.

[mastin2]

You don't find it at all odd Maemuki has only 1 argument against 1 person to show for her entire game?

Nope.

Honestly, I'd probably have more issues with Mae if there

were

. One person reads as "meh" casual. Something like half the town reads as coasting. If that makes sense.

[mastin2]

Mala, I could use your help, here.

See...I don't think funky and Mhork are scum together.
funky's posts have been horrible, especially those on last page.

...But Mhork's posts are equally bad, especially the ones on

this

page.

Which do you think is scum? I really can't tell. One moment, I think it's one of them. The next moment, I think it's the other.

[mastin2]

Why are my posts horrible, mastin?

There's literally nothing town in them?

[mastin2]

Mae is the pinnacle of towniness and good feels, right?

Nah, not pinnacle. But pretty dang close. (Well, for good feels, at least. And "good at displaying town-alignment". Not the most pro-town of play, but still a town play.)

[mastin2]

VOTE: Lord Mhork.

Right, so Mala, I'm really liking what Mae's selling, combined with Mhork's overall bad posting.

Put it another way--funky might feel like scum...but Mhork also not only feels like scum, but LOOKS like scum as well.

Short on time atm, but basically, I really want today to be Mhork vs. Funky (lean towards Mhork), rather than Funky vs. Mae. Funky vs. Mae feels funky. Doesn't seem right, doesn't seem natural. Also, I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right. Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.

[mastin2]

What's townie about Mae's posting? Her post was wrong and based in her making things up that didn't actually happen. Where's the town in her posting? Where's the town motivation in misrepresenting me?

I've been over this; literally everything is screaming town.

[mastin2]

Nothing in her posts scream town. You're bullshitting here. Point out where the town is. How does it scream town? Use facts to support your gut.

Implying my reads are on nothing but gut. Just because I haven't gone through the effort to point the facts out doesn't mean I don't have any. Mae's posting screams town to anyone who's bothering to play beyond just the literal wording, which any half-way competent scumhunter should be doing.

Also, I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right. Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.

Because funky-mhork can't be scum-scum this combination of wagons is better? Lining up lynches much?
What about the town-town combination? You seem to automatically assume just because they can't be scum-scum, they have to be scum-town or town-scum.

Uhh...what? I said the opposite, that it's possible they're scum-scum. I was saying before that I didn't think it was possible. So if you want to talk to the past-me about it, I'll point out how, logically, their interactions didn't (and still don't) look like scumbuddies. I'll also talk about how they're both incredibly likely, separate from each other, to be scum, both by POE and my townreads, and by, just...well...their godawful posting. So, yes. I don't think it's town-town, nor did I ever think it was town-town.

[mastin2]

To put it simply--what's Mae's scum motivation in pulling this move? Drawing attention to oneself, and then brushing it off when in danger is...not exactly scum-oriented behavior.

What's Mae's town motivation in pulling this move? Simple, not really caring about things, knowing that Mae doesn't need to play at 100% here. Perhaps out of apathy/boredom, perhaps in order to play casually rather than hardcore, whatever, but it's clear Mae's not giving this game much effort. And, again. I reiterate that this is not a scum behavior.

CAN it come from scum, yes, it can. IS it coming from scum, no, I don't think so.

[mastin2]

can you link/quote stuff that 'scream town' and explain?

Sure!

Now, I can quote the stuff now, but I don't have the time to explain it now. (Bit short on time atm.) I might not have the time to explain today (depends on how busy I am), but I'll definitely elaborate on it within a couple days for certain. For the moment, though... (quotes incoming)

[mastin2]

Spoiler: Mae posts

They never even 'Oooh'ed or 'Ahhh'ed.

It's not better than an opera (yet), though.

(Quick note, this is not alignment-indicative, but it is tone-indicative, and the tone is part of why Mae's town, hence its inclusion. Elaboration later.)

My collection of Les Miseràbles cast albums is potencially embarrasing. Seriously, I'm missing very few of them.

Also, shos, it benefits scum in a way (less townies) but it also leaves them at a disadvantage (because every other townie is now suspicious of them). So there's that.

(Also tone.)

So, Mhork, won't you even give us a teeny tiny bit of your reasoning?

Your vote, maybe?

Yet you only voted after funky did. I don't think that makes much sense, but w/e. (b'-')b

(Why these are town will be explained later, but a note that in addition to the town content, there's also the tone which again is part of the townread.)

Mhork, I think your vote on Shos was very strange - it felt like sheeping while not completely understanding why.

(Only this part of the post.)

You mean when you said this? Where did you say it felt like sheeping? The part where you pointed out I voted after funky did? That just looks like a random observation.

And are you saying I didn't point out why I thought shos looked scummy?

You only voted after funky did. Which is the definition of sheeping. Are you following?

Also, yes.

(This one's fairly weak, admittedly.)

Now, I don't know about you guys, but some people (I'm looking at you, shos, funky, since you're the other people who are under the most suspicion) are keeping me as a second backup lynch while not actually voting me. Also, I disagree almost 100% with Grimgroove's reads. I think that Ellie and Mhork sound... close, so to speak. I don't know if they've played a lot, or if this is just coincidence, but their interactions sound off.

I'm not sure if you didn't understand my question or if you didn't want to understand.

(Only these parts of the post.)

And a fair chunk of 250.

Like I said, don't have the time to explain all of those, but will do so as soon as I can. But aside from the casual tone (I quote the main ones, but not all of them; there are many which could be casual or could be serious, but I decided to only quote the ones that are without a doubt casual), needless to say, there's a lot that makes Mae feel like town.

[mastin2]

More wine!

You know you've been playing mafia for too long when you can't hear this statement without adding "in front of me!".

Right, so Mala, I'm really liking what Mae's selling

Srs? So you like posting of incorrect information presented as facts and blatant misreps - because that's all Mae has posted. And yet somehow that 'screams town' to you - because of

tone

?

Ironically enough, this itself is a 'misrep', because you're saying I think Mae's town for nothing more than tone. There's a whole hell of a lot more than that, but to humor you, even IF there was JUST the tone...yes, that'd be enough.

What do you think about my questions to Mae in 172, since a lot of your reasoning for thinking they are town is answered in that post for why the exact same posts make me think scum.

Quite frankly, I ignored them. Don't even know what you asked; wasn't paying attention to them.

[Deleted a part which effectively said "Grimgroove, what the heck are you smoking", since he apparently came back sober and realized he was on some kind of trip.

Below is relevant to it, though.]

The interactions between funky and Mhork don't look like scum-scum. I said this before. I am still saying it now.

I have scumreads on both of them. My scumreads on both of them come from a combination of bad posting from both of them, and POE townreads on most of the other players. So they're both scumreads, separate from one another.

While them both being town is possible, for both of them to be town requires me to be wrong on AT LEAST one townread, not to mention, a minimum of two of my three scumreads*. And I'd like to think I'm a more competent player than that. So, YES. I don't think it's town-town. Nor have I ever thought it was town-town.

In fact, while the interactions don't look like scum-scum, I still think that, somehow, it's possible for it to be scum-scum. (Put it another way--don't look like scum-scum, but feel like they could be scum-scum.)

*Not to mention, their interactions don't look like townVtown, either. Read their interactions yourself and tell me you think they're both town. Seriously. It's not a town-town interaction.


And since you've asked:
The reason their interaction doesn't look like scum-scum is, basically, the entirety of their interaction. For them to be scum requires them to be cross-bussing at each others' throats and for them to basically be sabotaging their chances of winning. Also, both players look like they're trying to manipulate the town into lynching each other. If they were both scum, you'd expect them to be trying to manipulate the town into thinking they're both town. Instead, it looks like they're dead-set against each other. I'll see if I can get the quotes, but that'll have to wait until after I finish the Mae defense that I started yesterday.

What "move"? There is no "move"...
She didn't draw attention on herself. Other people PUT attention on her, and with her latest godawful post she lazily tried to squirm her way out of that attention field.

This is more than Mae just not participating a lot. She tried to give off the air of participation when pulling the "Mhork is sheeping"-thing, and then giving some half-assed reads on everyone in her last post. Of course it's coming from scum, there's no reason at all not to think so.

Lack of a move is a move itself. The lack of a move drew attention to her. And she's not squirming her way out of the attention field. She's casually brushing it off. And she's not trying to give off the air of participation. She's half-assing participation for sure, but I see no scum objective in doing so.

Of course it's not going to be scum. Yeah, there's reason to think it would be so, but it's never going to happen in practice. Seriously. I've been in 130+ games by now. In all my time...I seriously, legitimately, do not think I've ever seen a single case of a scum player doing what Mae is doing. I HAVE seen BUNDLE-loads of town players doing it. Hell, I've done it myself a whole bunch of times, admittedly. Seriously. This isn't that hard to understand. Mae's mislynch bait, and you've fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

@Mastin: Would do you think of Malakittens' behavior?

Town. I like to think of myself as fairly decent at reading Mala (though my memory's probably biased; she probably knows how accurately/inaccurately I read her better than I do ), and I'm reading her as town, here. My memory is fairly faulty, but I believe that almost every time she's been scum, I've correctly pegged her as such almost immediately, and thus, almost every time she's been town, I've also pegged her correctly. (But again, she probably remembers me reading her better than I do. )

Anyway, will be finishing the Mae case I started yesterday. Not immediately, but in the near-future.

[mastin2]

Oh hey there's still no Mae town case.

Sorry 'bout that. Realized at around 4:30 when I was driving to Tae Kwon Do that I'd forgotten to do it.

Butyeah, am working on it now.

He however has only played with Mala-town, but probably has meta'd Mala-scum. He has correctly read me right when he's town and attempts to throw me for a loop when he's scum.

I've seen your scum game at least twice, if not more, Mala. I distinctly recall, for instance, a game where I was nightkilled N1 by your scumteam, and you fakeclaimed watcher. Butyeah. Point stands, as Mala has confirmed. I'm at least fairly decent at reading her. Perhaps not super-competent at it, but certainly enough to have confidence in my townread.

[mastin2]

Fuck Mastin your ':P' are contagious.

(I get that a lot*. )

*But really, it's not like I have a dominance over the emoticon. Plenty of people use it, some using it a lot. I'm just the guy who uses it enough that it becomes comment-worthy.

[mastin2]

I AM TYPING THE CASE RIGHT NOW, AND IF YOU HAMMER, I WILL TAKE IT AS A SCUMCLAIM.

[mastin2]

As promised...

Spoiler: The town

They never even 'Oooh'ed or 'Ahhh'ed.

It's not better than an opera (yet), though.

My collection of Les Miseràbles cast albums is potencially embarrasing. Seriously, I'm missing very few of them.

Also, shos, it benefits scum in a way (less townies) but it also leaves them at a disadvantage (because every other townie is now suspicious of them). So there's that.

These posts both show the casual, relaxed feeling I expect from a town player, ESPECIALLY in the early-game. Scum in the early-game are typically going to be nervous, typically going to be on edge, because they haven't learned how to blend in. Mae, here, however, is just posting without a care in the world.

So, Mhork, won't you even give us a teeny tiny bit of your reasoning?

Your vote, maybe?

Yet you only voted after funky did. I don't think that makes much sense, but w/e. (b'-')b

Mae begins the inquiry into Mhork. A scum-Mae has no reason to focus only on Mhork, at least, so casually. A town-Mae who is scumhunting casually has every reason to.

I'll be honest--you'll see this throughout the case, but a lot of the reason Mae's a townread is because Mae's acting as a casual-me acts in a game. But it makes sense. If you're not really sure who the scum are, you have two options. Super-aggressive, and laid back casual scumhunting. You might think they produce different results, but the net effect is actually identical; they both catch people off-guard. Mae's posting may not be entirely intense, but they still hone in on key things which a town player's looking for.

"Why not a scum player?"

If Mae were scum, Mae would push this harder. Instead, we get this casual, relaxed, "whatevs". Mae doesn't vote Mhork. Mae doesn't apply serious pressure to Mhork. As scum, that's what I'd expect someone to do. In order to try and gain some early cheap towncred. But no, instead, Mae decides to continue referencing Mhork and putting attention onto him, while not overly focusing on him.

Mhork, I think your vote on Shos was very strange - it felt like sheeping while not completely understanding why.

This again shows a Mae-town mindset, because Mae's giving good insight, while also not being entirely confident. Mae is displaying all the signs of a player who is trying to figure things out, rather than a scum player trying to minimize condemning information and maximize manipulation.

You mean when you said this? Where did you say it felt like sheeping? The part where you pointed out I voted after funky did? That just looks like a random observation.

And are you saying I didn't point out why I thought shos looked scummy?

You only voted after funky did. Which is the definition of sheeping. Are you following?

Also, yes.

Follows through on the above, trying to work with Mhork, prodding him to see if he's town or scum. Not scum, lazily making others do the work. Mae, here, is trying to see what Mhork's alignment is. If Mae were scum, I'd expect Mae to be pushing him harder. I'd be expecting her to actively be trying to get others to vote Mhork for this. Yet Mae isn't. Instead, Mae's there, talking to him, and I do believe that's trying to figure things out.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but some people (I'm looking at you, shos, funky, since you're the other people who are under the most suspicion) are keeping me as a second backup lynch while not actually voting me. Also, I disagree almost 100% with Grimgroove's reads. I think that Ellie and Mhork sound... close, so to speak. I don't know if they've played a lot, or if this is just coincidence, but their interactions sound off.

I'm not sure if you didn't understand my question or if you didn't want to understand.

Pointing out how you're a secondary lynch candidate is something I would never expect from a scum player. This IS drawing attention to yourself. It's basically saying, bluntly, "Hey guys, you all have different primary scumreads, yet I seem to be a universal secondary scumread!" Seriously, read it and tell me Mae's not essentially saying that. Now tell me that's a scum comment. It's not. Mae's pointing out, completely without worry, that she's a likely compromise lynch. But instead of trying to dissuade people from doing so, she instead--once again--is merely pointing it out. And she's making the most of it, by hinting at what she thinks of the others who are doing it. Plus, the last part shows that scumhunting again, off of gut and interactions, but again...

As scum, why not back up her words? Why not make it something off of reasoning? It's easy to fake logic as scum. So "because there's no actual logic behind it?" doesn't work as an excuse. Instead, it's just there, as a gut feeling, essentially, and that looks town.

And the last bit is also a great line. Trying to figure out a player again, and doing so in a manner which gives good insight. The comment "you didn't want to understand" really resonated with me, in particular, because it's something that I've picked up in my numerous games: scum typically prefer to be stubborn and not see things that a town player would.

First off, I think that one of {Mhork, funky} is scum.

This is a bad argument. You're not actually refuting anything that Mastin is saying, you're just redirecting (or attempting to, anyway) his suspicion. On my own experience, people usually only do that when they don't actually have anything to say.

Call me a sucker for buddying, but Mae's thought process seems to largely be on my same wavelength. You can call the first paragraph sheeping, but the second paragraph is uncannily good if Mae were scum trying to buddy me. Because it's a legitimately solid insight into Mhork, along my own thoughts. But, critically, it's something I hadn't expressed. It's something I've been thinking Mhork's scum for doing, yet not revealing. Yet here Mae is, having said it before I ever got the chance to.

Do you literally have no other reads other than myself? It's awfully easy attacking someone who you can assume that won't answer, especially if you've checked their activity elsewhere. Out of your 20 most recent posts, 14 are about me. There is literally nothing else in them other than 'prove she's town', 'where is she', etc, etc. I think it's more likely for scum to stay hung up on what can be seen as an easy mislynch (because a lurker is an easy lynch, no matter what, especially on this case, since you have literally nothing else to hold against me other than my inactivity).

You can call this hypocritical if you'd like, but I would instead say that it's precisely because of the similarity between Mhork and Mae that makes this post town. Mae is acknowledging the suspicion on her, via addressing the same issue. But, critically, does a damn-good job of pointing out the differences and how Mhork is scummy for the behavior. It shows remarkable insight, it shows a clear town thought process, it shows logically thinking and also a type of reach-out to the other players. It continues into the next paragraph:

Now, you can think 'why Mhork? Why not Grimgroove, or elle?' Because I know their reads other than myself, especially Grimgroove. Mhork has nothing recent.

And then, Mae goes ahead and sets herself apart from Mhork, by

actually breaking the trend

and giving reads on other players. (The way that was done, not inherently town, but also not inherently scum. But having done it at all was town.)

Mastin. Oh, Mastin. I don't know if you're scum buddying or not, but I really hope not, because you're pretty much the strongest town read I have.

This really resonates with me, because again...if Mae were scum, then this would be MY thoughts about MAE's play, it being scum buddying to me. I simply don't see Mae posting this bit as scum. As town, legitimately paranoid about it, though, it makes perfect sense.

Grimgroove, I like your posts. Or better yet, I like how you make your posts, but I'm not so sure of your reads

Alright, this one's gut. I have no logical reason to like this line. But I do. I think it has to do with the interactions, in that Mae's opening up to try and work with Grimgroove, here.

shos is...weird. Very weird. And by weird I mean he seems incredibly wishy-washy. Behold:

well it's a good time to VOTE: Maemuki. This is an L-1 vote, lawl, had to say it

(etc.) ^^^blending in the crowd. has it not been repeated a dozen times now? gg LITERALLY quoted the entire ISO earlier and did it better.

the reason to not hammer is that by your post, you're policy lynching.

(etc.) Having seen these last 8 pages of content, don't you think it is time to let go of this? I mean, what can mhork possibly say that would help you? you're moving astray again, and this will only promote your lynch.

VOTE: funky mae's posting giving me gut feeling that I'm doing something wrong. better safe than sorry.

This whole progression is extremely weird. In the span of one page, you have literally held every single postion on my lynch, from 'lol L-1' to 'nah maybe not'. Would you care to explain?

This insight looks like it's town-oriented.

I'm kind of tired of looking through this game.

You can now continue with your regularly scheduled lynching. (b'-')b

This wasn't applied as an AtE. It's just a casually-thrown out there, "damn, this is harder than I should be". If that same sentence were "fuck this, I'm sick of this game", sure, yeah, scum. But it's not. It's not being applied for strategic value. Mae's not using tiredness as an excuse or a weapon. Mae's just casually referencing tiredness.

Then there's the fact that Mae's perfectly fine

Admittedly? This isn't a rock-solid case. But it's still a damn good case.

[mastin2]

Apparently, forgot to finish the final sentence.

Then there's the fact that Mae's perfectly fine with being lynched. As scum, I don't care what kind of player you are, under pressure, you're going to be freaking out

somehow

, and it'll bleed into your posts eventually. Be it raging, be it desperation, or something more subtle, signs of panic will form. But as town, the opposite is true. And Mae's displaying this. That calm, relaxed, casual "no biggie" deal to being lynched.

(Or something along those lines. You get the point.)

Admittedly, yes. The case makes assumptions about Mae that I cannot know for certain. But they're not unreasonable assumptions to make.

[mastin2]

[quote="In post 337, Lord Mhork"how on earth is Mae fine with being lynched? She stopped showing up![/quote] She's fine with being lynched by the quote I pointed out in which she admitted she was fine with being lynched.

Also, stopped showing up, if alignment-indicative at all, would be town, not scum. (It's probably null, as something outside Mae's control.) Because it shows that apathy. Scum are more likely to feel the pressure. Scum are more inclined to post like mad(wo)men in order to avert their lynch. Scum are more likely to fight their absolute hardest to avoid getting lynched, to survive just one more day to get closer to victory.

Haven't read your entire case yet, but with the above I disagree 100%. In my experience town shows a lot more indignation over being lynched, because they know some people are mistaking by voting them. When you're telling the truth and nobody believes you, it's far more frustrating than when lying and nobody believing you.

If you feel like you're being lynched by town players, you can show frustration as town. But if you feel like your mislynch is driven by scum, then no. (Mae felt like her wagon was driven by scum.) You'll accept it, because you know your mislynch can be weaponized to find the scum.

Hi. Those of you who know me are probably pissing and moaning that you had some really bad fucking luck to have me show up.

Quite the opposite, I'm ecstatic. Because you're probably one of the only players here who can prevent your idiotic mislynch.

Just read the towncase, it sucks. Far from what i thought you talked about.

Oh? And what did you think I was talking about, then?

[mastin2]

Not unvoting though.

If anyone hammers before Ghostlin can post, they will be the next lynch.

Does not compute.

[mastin2]

I'd say, "Yo, Ghostlin, join me on Mhork", but your vote's already there, soyeah.

[mastin2]

Did you even read my post, mastin?

Yes, but given as how it was two massive posts saying "Mae's slot is scum", I elected to ignore them.

I still don't get it - I still don't understand it and either he's just

that good

I try to be humble, but bluntly?

Yes. I am that. damn. good. I can smell a mislynch from a mile away, see the scum pushing it from five-hundred feet. I may not have perfect accuracy, especially on my scumreads, but my townreads are much, MUCH more accurate. When I say a player's town, they're going to damn-well be town. (Ghostlin can, to some extent, corroborate this.)

[mastin2]

VOTE: Lord Mhork.

Vote: BV310

It was a safe hammer, he did none of the fucking lifting yesterday; and being a safe hammer, it'd look suspicious if he DIDN'T BUS.

If I'm wrong about Mhork, then yeah, bv would be my best guess at scum.

...Problem is, I don't think I'm wrong about Mhork. He looks like scum. His vote on funky was even safer than bv's hammer, and him actually voting funky was a good way for him to dismiss the theories of a funky-Mhork scumteam for good. (Except I'm not buying into that team being impossible.) Or to put it in your words--it'd be suspicious if he DIDN'T bus funky, as it'd give credence to my theory that they're scumbuddies, distancing but critically, not actually bussing.

Mhork's posting looked scum-oriented yesterday, and it looks even MORE scum-oriented today, with the Malakittens push. It's flat-out him using his hard-bus against funky to coast by on some

ridiculously

scummy pushes.

Lord Mhork has always read town to me. This day is further confirmation in this regard. He seems to vouch for bv310 from what I could gather. Scum would have no interest whatsoever to put bv310 forward as confirmed town. bv310, if indeed town, would have been the ideal mislynch for scum. So Mhork's confirmation makes both Lord Mhork and bv310 also town.

See, you were good until here. Here's where you go wrong, Grimgroove. I really don't think Ghostlin's scum, and I really, REALLY think it's either bv or Mhork. In particular?

Ghostlin, I don't think that bv is that good a person to go after right now. What do you think of mala?

This is him, wanting to mislynch bv tomorrow. He's not saying bv's not a good person to go after at all. He's saying bv's not a good person to go after TODAY. Mhork's plan was to lynch Malakittens, then mislynch bv, and then in lylo, probably mislynch Ghostlin if he hasn't died. (Or, better yet, flip Ghostlin and bv, because Ghostlin would help him lynch Ghostlin, and that'd leave a scummy-as-hell bv in lylo.) Killing between me, you, and shos, leaving whichever he felt is most manipulable between you and shos in the 3p lylo.

Should i even bring up massclaim?

I'd rather we let the mod do the massclaim for us via having a perfect win on D2. But failing that, I was thinking that if we mislynch today, we should massclaim on D3. It's the day before lylo, so no scum shenanigans, but allows the town's PRs an extra night of info without the scum being able to interfere as effectively.

[mastin2]

Compare starting post in each. lots of townreads. lots of gut reads.

I searched for liike 30 minutes in his other games to find something similar, couldn't find.

Well, that's because you have to go further back than half an hour's worth of research to find solo town games of mine that you can legally link to.

Observe. Start from the reroll. (Iso #2; post 113.) I immediately dish out a ton of reads. Almost zero reasoning, mostly gut.

Pinkmin Mafia's true opening post starts much the same way.
Also relevant, with lots of town and an immediate callout of scum.


In contrast?
In this game, I keep my mouth shut as much as possible, intentionally limiting my townreads. If I were town that game, I would have had a lot of townreads, but I didn't have them because I was scum.

Yeah. These are a bit further back. But they're all decently-recent history.

My play in Under the Sea was closer to my town game than to my scum game. Know why?

Because I explicitly knew it to be multiball

, and thus,

could do legitimate scumhunting

.

[mastin2]

Why would mhork-scum suddenly grant a townread on BV310? Mastin, you say Mhork doesn't want to lynch bv today, but tomorrow. Why? Why this timing?

Because bv's the easiest mislynch he can get. Put it this way--we mislynch bv? Mhork gets towncred for saying we shouldn't have.

We don't mislynch bv and mislynch, say, Malakittens who he was pushing? Mhork can go, "welp, guess we lynch bv now". Explanations aren't required, and even if they are, it can be something incredibly vague, like, "if we're wrong, a bv mislynch would give us little info on who the last scum is" or something like that.

[mastin2]

[quote="In post 489, Grimgroove"If we run-up bv310 for a lynch and Mhork remains silent, us questioning what Mhork was on about in the beginning of this day is unavoidable and explanations would definitely be required. [/quote] Not if he was counting on the towncred from the funky bus. Remember. I'm the only guy here who seems to hold that belief. Thus, if I'm dead, he gets to cruise by on towncred and not come under as much scrutiny.

A more sensible plan for scum-Mhork would be to go ahead and mislynch bv310 along with the rest of town.

Doing so would only make him fall under

incredible

scrutiny. Sort-of a balancing factor, you could say. Mhork on a scum lynch = towncred, Mhork on the following town mislynch = blow to towncred, whereas Mhork on a scum lynch and avoiding being on a town mislynch = more towncred.

[mastin2]

Hey by the way mastin

VOTE: Lord Mhork.

Right, so Mala, I'm really liking what Mae's selling, combined with Mhork's overall bad posting.

Put it another way--funky might feel like scum...but Mhork also not only feels like scum, but LOOKS like scum as well.

Short on time atm, but basically, I really want today to be Mhork vs. Funky (lean towards Mhork), rather than Funky vs. Mae. Funky vs. Mae feels funky. Doesn't seem right, doesn't seem natural. Also, I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right. Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.

What happened to this?

A post where I say that I want it to be between one scum and you? A post where I say that I think funky(scum)-Mhork is scum-scum? What the hell do you mean, "what happened to this"? I'm following through on it right now.

The thing is that he didn't go after funky right from the get go. He went after me and kept this odd semi scum read on funky which was only really supported by 'his posts are especially bad' and 'he looks scummy.' Also he never followed up. He just sorta kept it there as a backup, which scum mastin could totally do after reading funky as an especially weak scum player. Actually I'm interested now. How did mastin bus funky?

I SCUMHUNTED funky immediately.

Right, so I'm going to be townhunting this game since it seems easier.
[TOWNREADS]
Leaving {Mhork,

funky

, bv}. Mhork and funky don't look like scumbuddies, but they both look like scum, honestly. bv looks like a potential scumbuddy to either, but has stronger ties to Mhork.

funky looks like scum

, Mhork also looks like scum but NOT scum bussing, and bv

also

looks like scum;

my funky scumread is stronger

, despite bv having more ties to Mhork.

I'm especially interested in why you see bv as scum.

Half-POE, half overall weak posting that looks bad in general. bv's outside my townreads, and bv's posting is also minorly tripping my gut as scum-driven. Plus, his interactions aren't the greatest, either.

(Okay, so this one's mainly on bv. But I was also making a mental note of "they could be scumbuddies" from that.

Technically, you're working with me, since

my slot was voting funky

before yours was.

Mala, I could use your help, here.
See...I don't think funky and Mhork are scum together.

funky's posts have been horrible

, especially those on last page.

...But Mhork's posts are equally bad, especially the ones on

this

page.

Which do you think is scum? I really can't tell.

One moment, I think it's one of them

. The next moment, I think it's the other.

Put it another way--

funky might feel like scum

...but Mhork also not only feels like scum, but LOOKS like scum as well.

Short on time atm, but basically,

I really want today to be Mhork vs. Funky

(lean towards Mhork), rather than Funky vs. Mae. Funky vs. Mae feels funky. Doesn't seem right, doesn't seem natural. Also,

I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but

I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right

. Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.

Uhh...what? I said the opposite, that it's possible

[funky-Mhork is] scum-scum

.

I'll also talk about how they're both incredibly likely, separate from each other, to be scum

, both by POE and my townreads, and by, just...well...their godawful posting.

And consistently. It continues here, and here:

Not unvoting though.

If anyone hammers before Ghostlin can post, they will be the next lynch.

Does not compute.

If you have issues with me jumping off of funky, I guess I can understand that, but I stick by it being the right decision. Not only at the time, but still now, I think that funky-Mhork competing wagons on D1 is about the best situation we could have hoped for. I still think that Mhork can be scum. So if I jumped off of one scum to another, then yes, I will defend my play as being justified. But I won't tolerate people thinking that I wasn't suspicious of funky, that I wasn't pressuring him, and that I wasn't ready to vote him. I was waiting on feedback from Ghostlin and Malakittens. I was heavily considering moving my vote, too, but I was afraid that if I did, funky would be lynched before I got said feedback. Justifiably so, as it turns out. Funky was at L-1 at the time of my last post. (I couldn't vote him without hammering, and if I had voted earlier, he would have been hammered.) He was hammered before I had gotten the feedback I wanted from Malakittens and Ghostlin. Seriously, I can quote dozens of posts in which I ask for that feedback. I ask for them to give thoughts on Mhork-funky. I was waiting on them. And I'm going to stick by that decision. There's a REASON bv's hammer looked scummy-as-hell; it cut off discussion.

This post is also bad from mastin. He's saying we probably aren't scum-scum, but also leaves the window open for it to be scum-scum after all. This wavering isn't town at all. He's trying to cover all his bases while maintaining a bad attack on me.

Quite the opposite. I'm explaining exactly WHY I THINK YOU'RE

BOTH

SCUM. Read that post again. I make it as explicit as I possibly can. "I realize that you guys think Mhork-funky can't be scum-scum". I say. "But I really,

really

think they both are." I explain. There is no contradiction. There is no window. This is simply be addressing the concerns around my theory, and explaining it.

I'm going to make a nigh suicidal suggestion, but if you believe in the PoE here, you work on us from most to least suspicious. In this case, it would be me, then Mastin, then GG.

Thing is, you're not scum and I'm not scum. If it really were just between the three of us, GG should go first, and me second. Why? Well...

A partial claim. Firstly gg and mastin. Then i will claim almost fully to explain malatown, and mhork the same for bv. If needed bv will claim too.

Objections?

I was hoping to have this wait until tomorrow, buuuuut...

Short of there being three scum, a mafia roleblocker, or a strongman-kill, Ghostlin is confirmed town.
/softclaim.

[mastin2]

EDBWOP:

"If it really were just between the three of us, GG should go first, and me second."
Was supposed to have followthrough after the softclaim which I forgot to add in.

"...Buuuuuut, I really, REALLY don't think it's a good idea to limit it to the three of us. I'm town, you're town, and the only possible scum name there is GG. But I don't think it's him. I still think it's Mhork."

[mastin2]

The thing I started considering: this is a role madness, so we can count on the remaining scum to have tricks up his sleeve, possibly countering some of our powers.

Not only potentially countering some of our own powers, but also potentially offering an explanation of scum play. Know what the best lie as scum is? The truth. For instance, a scum-Mhork having a role which, correctly, can identify bv as being town. It might identify bv as being town, but it doesn't identify him as not being scum. (Admittedly, the same is true of me, and Ghostlin. My role doesn't identify me as town, but it gives a STRONG inclination for Ghostlin to be town. Because those three scenarios I listed are the only ways I can possibly see Ghostlin being scum.)

[mastin2]

If you can vouch for ghost, that's perfect.

I can't do so 100%, because it's theoretically possible, in select circumstances, for him to be scum, as mentioned above. But aside from those? (And, hell, even if the scum HAVE a roleblocker and/or a strongman and/or a third member, there's no guarantee it's Ghostlin anyway. ) Yes, I can, with 99.97% confidence (the .03% being the three possible scenarios), vouch for Ghostlin being town, enough where I am willing to die before him.

The issue is, I don't think GG is scum. I think Mhork is. I guess I can understand not lynching Mhork today. But I think doing so is merely prolonging the game unnecessarily, and that GG will flip town.

[mastin2]

If we are mass claiming, mastin first.

Already softclaimed. I'll hardclaim first if asked to by a townread.

[mastin2]

GG, mastin, mhork. whoever gets this first, claim.

Alright.

Claim: Jailkeeper

. I jailed Ghostlin last night. Thus, why short of a third scum (his scumbuddy doing the killing), him being a roleblocker (and also requiring roleblocker resolving before jailkeep, even though that's fairly standard) AND blocking me, or him being a strongman, he's confirmed town.

I'm sure there's at least one way that you'll be going, "...huh?" to my claim, so let's see if I can hit the common points.

-

"Doesn't your role conflict with Ghostlin's?"

Theoretically, yes, in that they're both protective roles. But I don't think so. They actually work awesomely together, and you know why? Both have a negative aspect to them. The bodyguard's protection is a self-sacrifice. The jailkeeper's protection prevents the target from actioning. Maybe, maaaaaaaybe in a normal micro game, they'd conflict, but this game is explicitly role madness, and I can easily see two different protective roles in the game. Plus, there's the fact that they can't create a self-feeding loop. Doctor-BG, yes. JK-bg, not so much. The jailkeeper blocks the bodyguard.

-

"Weren't you at all suspicious of him, though? Even a little bit?"

Okay. So I admit it. If that same claim had come from, say, Mhork, I would have lynched his ass. Know why? Because I typically take the stance as a player to trust my reads over roleclaims. I do make exceptions to the rule, and it's more like a general guideline, but it's generally how I treat the game. I can see Ghostlin's role as being a scum fakeclaim...but I can't see Ghostlin being scum fakeclaiming. In addition to having Mae as a townread, in addition to having Ghostlin as a townread, there's also the way he claimed and how he's handled himself the whole game. That all says town, and thus, I trusted him to actually be town.

-

"Okay. But why protect a role whose explicit purpose is to die?"

Well, I figured the scum were either going to kill him or Malakittens. Both were my strongest townreads, both are incredibly-strong players, Ghostlin's role would be a pain in the ass to scum, and Malakittens was a decent townread of people. But, knowing it was role madness, I figured that Malakittens very well could be an investigative role, and I didn't want to roleblock her. Whereas with Ghostlin, I knew his claim. I knew what his role did. It was a self-sacrificing protection. And thus, not an investigative role. And thus, not something my own role could interfere with.

Plus, it had an added bonus. If a kill went through (like it did), then aside from very select circumstances (which I don't believe to be true*), it'd confirm Ghostlin as being town with only one scum alive, and put aside people's doubt on him once and for all.

*Okay. So I actually think there may be a mafia interference role. Maybe a commuter (if bv were a commuter, then it'd explain Grimgroove's no-result), maybe a roleblocker, but I don't think GHOSTLIN is that player.

[mastin2]

Mastin

Name claim too please love <3

Whoops. Knew I forgot something.

Marius.

Ehm, I kinda believe that we have two enemies left. probably some kind of odd-night SK or something and one supermob.

With the amount of power town has, I think it is not so unsafe to assume one kill got blocked..

So basically, you think that Ghostlin was either killed by scum or is scum?

Which do you find more likely? (I find the former more probable.)

Plus there's way too much preemptive defense in there for me to feel comfortable. It was very forced and polished, like he'd been thinking really hard about how he'd put it.

Actually, I was. I'm not going to go into the details, but the last time I made a roleclaim, I winged it. I

didn't

have the preemptive defense. I

didn't

have a polished claim. I HADN'T thought it through. And guess what? I got mislynched. So this game, I made damn sure that I was addressing all the concerns other town players would have with my claim. Because I knew that there would be some, given my night action choice and overall handling of my role is a bit...unusual.

But it's the town unusual, not a scum unusual. Be honest. If I claimed just "jailkeeper, targeted Ghostlin N1", how many of the questions in my post would you have asked? (Or similar.) One? Two? All? You know damn well and good it wasn't going to be none of them, and that you'd accept the claim at face value. So did I. (Granted. I knew that this was coming, and originally had a section called,

"Why this long explanation, Mastin?"

, but I forgot to actually type it in the post. ) If I thought that my claim was going to be believed just because I'm town and it's true, that'd be pure sheer idiotic ignorance. It's backfired on me before (always as town, mind you), it'd backfire on me this game. And I really want this to be a perfect win. I really want this to be a solid town game. I really want us to lynch scum today. And even if my death got us closer, it'd taint that record.

Also, Mhork, I can't help but notice you've yet to roleclaim, despite being next on the list.

It's too intricate. If mastin were truly a jailkeeper I don't see why he'd have thought about how much sense his role makes. He'd know the role was there, he wouldn't have to wonder WHY it's there and how much sense it makes.

Uh, I'm not?

I'm thinking about how much sense

Ghostlin's

role makes with my own. I know my own role is here, and don't have to wonder WHY it's here, but I DON'T know for sure why GHOSTLIN'S role is here, and DID wonder why it was here, and thought about why it makes sense as being present with my own.

[mastin2]

I am actually Eponine, the town mailman. Each night I'm allowed to write a note each night of no more than 50 words which the mod will send to a player of my choice. As I was afraid that I would get killed dead, and since elle was my strongest town read, I sent her my reads on all living players in case I died. Unfortunately she died, so that was a waste. I actually wrote it in a rhyming scheme and everything.

Yeeeeeah, this is scum.

Also mastin, Marius makes absolutely 0 sense as a Jailkeeper.

Take it up with the mod, then. That's my role. I know it's my role. Arguing it doesn't fit doesn't matter, because it's my damn role. It's what I have. Period. Nothing you can say nor do will change the fact that I am Marius, Town Jailkeeper. There's basically zero flavor explanation in the role PM for it, either. (A vaguely flavor-related quote that I'm guessing serves as the justification, a description of who Marius is which I think was also served to further the justification, and then the basic town alignment description. That's it. Then a description of my powers. Voice, vote, and a description of the jailkeeper power. With the official town wincon at the end. Seriously. That's a concise summary of the entirety of my PM. No elaborate descriptions. Nothing. Just that.) But it's my role, all the same.

I don't know the flavor behind the role. I don't know anything about it. So I can't even guess why the mod made that decision. Doesn't matter. It's my role. Period. Hell. Even if you think that I was scum, I'd still have it as my fakeclaim, no? And if the mod didn't design fakeclaims to work as well as realclaims, then the game would be broken. So your point holds no water.

[mastin2]

Also, you role is very similar to elleheathen's role. It basically boils down to delivering something. Whether it's a letter, a fruit or a drink, I don't see how that makes much difference. I don't understand the added value of a letter, what's to stop you from writing down those reads before the night ends, in the topic?

It's probably a fakeclaim. It doesn't make sense with the setup, as it IS redundant. It serves the same exact function as the fruit vendor, only being more powerful. Trackers and followers/reporters serve different functions, with one seeing the visiting target and the other seeing the type of action. Bodyguards and Jailkeepers serve different functions, with one self-sacrificing and the other hindering. Fruit vendor and mailman? Absolutely redundant.

That said...if your theory of there being two scum left (albeit two different types of scum) is correct, it's not impossible (albeit highly improbable) for it to be a scum power. Hell, that's a scum-oriented power; just look at mykonian's title for a demonstration of why.

It does explain why you townread BV310 now though, also if you're scum. You had no choice because BV310 would bring up the neighborizing argument himself in case he would get a wagon on him (if he'd get active in this game at least).

Precisely.

[mastin2]

mastin link me to the place where your claim got you mislynched like that

I said I didn't want to talk about it, and I mean it. I have no reason to lie about a story like that. Much a writer as I am, I'm not going to BS a story about a game which is easily confirmable by searching through my game history.

[mastin2]

Mailman is a weaker verison of a neighborizer

Basically, this. Except also applying to the fruit vendor, only moreso.

A fruit vendor serves a purpose of saying "I visited you!", and in this variant, is apparently used during the day. It's practically a Friendly Neighbor, in that its usage is to make you look town.

A neighborizer serves the purpose of talking to another player.

A mailman serves a purpose of saying, "Look at me, I'm town!" While also delivering a message (one-way talking) to a player.

It's redundant to both.

Thus, it's either fake, or scum real, but not town.

[mastin2]

Lord Mhork is obvtown. His behavior towards bv310 is perfectly explained, and his claim checks out. I don’t think that at this point in time, he could make up a poem like that in such short notice, added to the fact that the content of that poem needed to be consistent with his reads at the end of Day 1. As far as I can see, this is the case. It would take a HUGE effort for Mhork to come up with a poem like that at this point in time. Only sidenote: Lettersending could be a scum-ability. In theory. But mhork’s behavior in the topic is extremely town. Combined with the block on me that would make Mhork a Roleblocking Lettersending Goon. Sounds like too much. Mhork is town.

Except his behavior towards bv is alignment-null. IF he's town (BIG IF!), then he's going to defend bv. If he's scum, then he's forced to do the same or get called out as being scum by bv.

Making a poem is totally alignment-null.
If you've got any skill as a writer,
Just throw up some bull.

If memory serves me, Mhork actually

does

have some skill as a writer. And if you've got the skills to be a writer, and have been exposed to poetry, you can put them together and easily, EASILY fake a poem. And of course he can fake consistency in his reads. Scum are always self-conscious of who they're townreading and scumreading, AND scum tend not to shift their reads between days unless necessary. Combined together, he wouldn't even need to iso himself to get things consistent; he'd basically already know it.

But his push on D2 on Mhork is even more farfetched than his towncase on Maemuki, and his claim of a JK sounds off, for many reasons.

As I said. I'm that damn good. I read Maemuki like a book, and even demonstrated exactly why. I'm not lying about my claim at all. And my case against Mhork makes damn-good sense. It made sense on D1 (HENCE WHY I WAS PUSHING HIM), and it makes sense even more so now.

[mastin2]

By the way, the same can be said about the jailkeeper and bodyguard.

Again, different roles, different functions. Trackers see WHO a person targets. Followers see WHAT they did. Followers can actually be much stronger than trackers, with their power vastly underestimated. (For instance, a tracker tracking a player to a corpse has a good idea of what happened, but not absolute confirmation. A follower getting a kill result......)

Bodyguard sacrifices itself in order to protect a target. Jailkeeper serves to hinder any action the target takes as a cost of the protection. They work surprisingly well together, having no built-in redundancies, no self-feeding loops, nothing like that. They work and they work well.

Day-Fruit-Vendor is effectively a Friendly Neighbor, confirming their alignment to a player.
Neighborizer allows for talk between two players. No redundancy here.

Mailmen is basically used to try and confirm the alignment of the player sending the message, while also allowing for talk, albeit one-sided.
DOUBLE redundancy.

One of these things is not like the others.

[mastin2]

I'm not sure if this is town vomiting shit rage, or scum caught for the wrong reasons.

It's scum caught for the wrong reasons. (Rather, caught for reasons he perceives to be wrong. )

[mastin2]

1) He flattered me from the word go. I'm kind of a fucking prickly player on purpose and one part of that is to repel flattery; also I think he way over estimates me.

I had your slot as a townread. Of course I'm going to flatter you. You were an awesome buddy to me before, and I think that you underestimate yourself, rather than me overestimating you.

2) There's two holes in his claim. First, If he believed I was scum, then why block me?

Uh...I thought you were town? And I explained why I protected you. Yes, it was a block. But it was also a protection, and quite bluntly, I thought you were playing well enough to get nightkilled. Beyond your claim itself (which could have drawn a scum nightkill), you were playing solidly as well.

And, yes. I've never bothered reading your scumgame. But your game here is similar to what I know to be your towngame. And, again. You need to stop assuming my read's just from you; it also came from your predecessor.

Second, his entire push this day against Mhork...most of it is setup speculation. TRUE setup speculation, but setup speculation nonetheless.

That's because I made the case against Mhork yesterday. I thought he was scum then. I still think he's scum now.

Also, he ignores a fucking important detail DURING the setup speculation to solely push a case on Mhork, which is dishonesty by omission.

What detail is that? I legitimately have no clue what you're talking about.

I think he's picking for endgame already, and I think he wants Mhork gone before then, and it'd be better in an either/or mislynch (which is also a point against Mhork as well).

What's a scum-Mastin's endgame, Ghostlin? I can't think of any. (Granted, might be because I'm not thinking like scum at all, right now. ) I don't see a possible path for a scum-me to be going down. Get Mhork mislynched, then what? What would I do after that? I don't know. And yes, a scum-me IS a planner, so it wouldn't be winging it; I wouldn't not have a plan and be improvising. But I honestly don't see what a scum-me has to gain from claiming what I have. What's the plan? What's the move to work towards endgame?

[mastin2]

With only one claim for RB, it's shit impossible for me AND Grim to be roleblocked.

Assuming all claims are taken at face value? Yes.

shos could be lying about being a tracker. (I don't think he is.)
Grimgroove could be lying about being a follower that was roleblocked. (I don't think he is.)
Mhork can be lying about his role. (I think he is.)

You, Malakittens, and BV are all conftown, yes. Your claims cannot come from a scum roleblocker. But Mhork's can. shos's could. (But almost certainly doesn't.) And obviously, if Grimgroove were lying about his role, then there's no need for there to even be a scum roleblocker. (Though that very well could be his role anyway. But I don't think Grimgroove is scum.)

[mastin2]

So basically, Ghostlin,
-Setup spec at this point IS pro-town, because we have a chance at a perfect win.
-The setup spec I did doesn't confirm Mhork as scum, but points in his direction.
-Mhork is scum for reasons beyond setup spec, which I've been saying for a while.

[mastin2]

I'm not excluding Malakittens as a ninja, I'm sorry but I can't.

...

VOTE: Grimgroove.

[mastin2]

Basically, I think that Grimgroove just scumslipped hard.

Malakittens could be a ninja, sure.
She can't be a roleblocking-ninja, though.
For her to be a ninja requires her to be scum.
For her to be scum requires me not to be scum.
For me not to be scum requires a scum to have blocked Grimgroove if he's town.
For him to think Malakittens is a ninja, he has to think that she's scum and not a roleblocker.

It shows cognitive dissonance.

[mastin2]

Have you seen it?

Skimmed it, looked like it didn't work.

[mastin2]

Your certainty concerning MHork-scum subsided awfully quick, considering how thin your argument against me really is.
If anyone scumslipped, it's you. No way would town-mastin forget about all convictions surrounding MHork. No way would town-mastin, so proud on the strength of his townreading-skills, cast aside a townread of his over something like this.

I can be wrong. I'm not a scumhunting god. My townread was never strong on you. It was there, yes. But it was never strong. My scumread could be wrong, as much as I had thought it right.

If you're town, why are you so concerned about my switch to you?

[mastin2]

You downplay your former townread on me now, but the cases you've made for me town, setup specs included, were far more convincing and logical than anything you've presented on Maemuki or Malakittens.

My townread on you, aside from setup spec, was basically nothing. I can't even remember the reasons I had it, anymore.

Know what that is?

BIG FREAKIN

RED FLAG

.

If I can't remember why I was townreading a slot, there's generally a DAMN good reason to NOT have a townread, there. I had no reason for you to be town. I don't know why I didn't see it before. I don't know why I wrote you off as town. (Okay. So I probably do--confirmation bias on Mhork. ) But that was a mistake. You're scum.

And know what the thing about setup spec is? It's speculation. It's impossible to know what the mind of the mod works like. And actually, I'm finding it slightly difficult to believe that you are a follower. Shos, a tracker, has an extreme limitation on his role, weakening it even further. You, a claimed follower, have no weakness in your ability, despite it being just as strong if not STRONGER than shos's ability.

I don't trust him to follow any set guidelines and role blocking can fuck everything up hard.

If the plan's not stupid? If the plan will work, taking all the variables into account? Of course I'm going to follow it; it'd be against my wincon to NOT follow it. But if the plan's stupid and/or looks smart but has a fatal flaw? Damn right I'm not going to follow the guidelines.

Grim's plan falls into the latter category, and I think it's scum-motivated to try and get him closer to endgame.

What if mastin just doesn't care? So far I've seen little that indicates he's willing to step off his pedestal and work with people that aren't him.

What am I, a reckless vig that shoots regardless of town's input? >_<

I'm willing to work with people who I think to be town. For instance? I think you might actually be town, Mhork. It's certainly possible. So I'm willing to listen to your ideas. I'll ultimately be the judge of whether those ideas are actually valid, of course, but I'm willing to try. And I'm also listening to Malakittens, shos, and Ghostlin.

I really don't know if its Mastin. Going by posts and everything I don't think he's scum, but his claim really felt similar to the claim back in a micro when he replaced a scum slot. /:

Presumably, she's talking about Vs. Mafia, run by Voidedmafia. (I'm too lazy to track down the link.) My claim there was Doctor, and I made it fit with the scum's accidental no-kill one night, along with my predecessor's reads. (I agonized over that for a good five, ten minutes. It's one of the main factors which delayed my roleclaim, in fact: checking for consistency. I needed to make sure whoever I claimed to be a protection was someone my predecessor townread D1, and continued to townread all through their part of D2.) I wanted to confirm mollie, but I couldn't because she screwed her claim up and was confscum as a result, so I...improvised.

That's the thing about my scum claims. Think of it as the quote about Jack Sparrow--"Do you think he plans it all out, or just makes it up as he goes along?", AKA, Xanatos Speed Chess. My scum fakeclaims are always improvised on the spot. But they're always well-thought-out fakeclaims that I make sure don't have a fatal flaw. There's another trend that my fakeclaims have: they're incredibly traditional. JOAT with three abilities. Doctor. Cop. With logical targets that make sense, and don't need elaborate explanations to justify. They're self-evident, self-contained. As scum, I can make my fakeclaim be less than a single paragraph, and nobody will ask any further questions, because it fits, they see it fits, they recognize it fits, understand it, and think that it is a good, solid claim. It's there in Vs. Mafia, it's also there in Oversoul's mini normal. (Again, you'd have to track down the link.) And probably others as well.

If you think that my play here is similar to that description, you're going to need one hell of an explanation as to why. I am not fakeclaiming. This is not my style of fakeclaiming at all. It's elaborate. It's convoluted. It is something people can easily think via occam's razor to be a lie. Which is precisely why it's true.

Anyone considered 3rd party existence?

Someone did.

[mastin2]

Guys, it's very likely Grimgroove/Mastin.

It's not me, and I really think at this point it's Grimgroove.

The 180 in 751 on both me and Mhork confirm mastin as scum really.

You began to scumread me this heavily after I reversed my opinion on you and called you scum. While you had voted me before then, you were not pushing me as hard as you are now. You're displaying OMGUS survivalistic tendencies, painting me as confirmed scum because you know that you need me mislynched in order to stand a chance at victory. This makes no sense from a town-GG perspective, anyway. Shos was supporting an Mhork lynch. Why would a scum-Mastin abandon a wagon that's

just beginning to gain traction

in favor of switching to a wagon on someone that could very well condemn him the next day?

I wouldn't. If I were scum, I'd still be on Mhork. I could continue to tunnel him all day, and be townread for having done so. But no. I'm not scum, wanting to survive. I'm not scum, trying to look good. I'm not scum, trying to mislynch. I'm town, trying to get scum lynched, and I think the scum is

YOU

.

It's the weekend, so I don't have much time to explain, but I'll run through Grimgroove's plan, assuming he's a mafia roleblocker, and show why it's beneficial to a scum wincon come Monday.

[mastin2]

I'm getting the feeling mastin is going for a badge of honour here, trying to get a mislynch before he goes down.

Hell no. As scum, I go for a win. Not to get some petty mislynch to stain a town's record.

No, I'm town,

aiming for that perfect record

.

The argument is that I am scum for contemplating the idea of a Ninja Roleblocker. That is it.

It might have started as that, yes. But saying that's all there is against you is a massive strawman. Your comment set off a red flag. Your reaction to it set off another. And your continued stances on things, and me stepping back from things to re-evaluate them, made me realize I had missed another. (That I had no actual reason to be townreading you aside from some half-assed setup spec.)

He has taken note of Malakittens' paranoia when it comes to me, stemming from a previous game and thought he could use it to his advantage.

Serious question:

what

paranoia? I haven't seen any from Malakittens. Or if I did, I certainly didn't remember it.

and as evident from his last explanation, he also seems to think that this switch will make him look like paranoid-town (like the rest of us), earning him townpoints.

Except I explicitly said that I wasn't. I'm not aiming for towncred. I'm

aiming for lynching scum

. I thought it was Mhork before. But now I'm growing increasingly convinced that it's YOU. I pointed out why a town-you was nearly-impossible for the scummy-as-hell immediate assumption that I'm scum, when a far more reasonable town reaction is to think that I am that paranoid town. That's not me expecting to get towncred and be seen as paranoid town. That's me pointing out that if you were town, you'd be THINKING it was paranoid town.

He cannot explain such a 180-turn. He can't. He was CONVINCED Mhork was scum. Now he's CONVINCED I am scum, and wants to work together with Mhork, who he suddenly wants to consider possible town.

I've pulled 180s, 360s, 720s, 90s, and just about every possible degree of rotation of reads over my career. Mostly as town, very rarely ever as scum. As scum, my play IS to be consistent. It's to tunnel. It's to be unmoving as I possibly can, to stubbornly hold onto reads that have long-since passed their expiration date.

I do this as scum because it works wonders for getting me towncred, and is something that I unfortunately also do as town. Your comment triggered something in me. It literally was like a switch. As if something had just clicked into place. Like things were wrong before, but now suddenly felt oh SO right. Because it was exactly that--I had been tunneling. And when I realized that, I did a quick mental reassessment of things.

Yes. It started with the single argument about thinking a ninja roleblocker could be possible. But sometimes, that's all it takes. Sometimes, it's a single comment by scum, seemingly-harmless, that can alert me to their presence, to their plan. And that, my friend, is exactly what just happened.

The fact he abandons his Mhork-scum arguments so easily means he never really felt so strongly about them in the first place. Yet he certainly gave off the impression that he did. Why? Scum going for a mislynch.

Actually, I always make my arguments look more confident than they really are. Know why? Because the real Mastin is a wreck. Plagued by self-doubt, by an utter lack of confidence, always waffling, always letting his overreactive (not overactive; overREactive!) imagination take him to the never-ending cycle of self-inflicted WIFOM. It's alignment-null, because I do it as both town and scum, buuuuuuuut, that doesn't mean every single push I do is off of a lie. Quite the opposite, I typically don't push something unless I feel really strongly about it. To put it another way--I may say something is 95%, but behind the mask of confidence, that's probably closer to 75 or maybe 85%. So if I said Mhork was 95% scum, it's actually more like one of those numbers. In that it IS something I feel strongly about. It's NOT a weak push. But it's also not as strong as I pretend it to be. So in a sense, you can say that I don't lie, but I DO exaggerate. (After all, I'm a writer, and writers' job isn't to create fiction--it's to exaggerate the truth. )

Buuuuuut, that's a side-note about general Mastin meta, irrelevant to the game. The simple fact is that I

was

confident Mhork was scum. I'm

not

convinced he is town now. You're conveniently ignoring how I said "willing to work with" and am "assuming" he's town and the like, in that I'm NOT sure he's town, but with thinking you're scum, I'm automatically thinking that he could be town.

If I get mislynched you simply cannot let mastin get away with it. CANNOT.

Oh, agreed. So let's make it official.

We lynch Grimgroove. If the game isn't over, mislynch me, and then Mhork.

But that won't happen, because the game should end with Grimgroove's scum flip.

Bullshit, and some circumstancial arguments as a sider. Absolutely nothing tangible.

Circumstancial arguments are my forte. They're seriously how I get the majority of my scumhunting done. See, I'm overall not a very refined scumhunter. Typically, my job in a town is to stir up things, off of circumstancial pieces of evidence, and let other town players I trust analyze them to see if I've got something that could be valid.

By the way, it wasn't gaining traction. It did at some point, but it lost it again before you started calling me out.

No, it was gaining traction before my callout of you, with people like shos expressing interest, you expressing interest, and probably at least one other player that I can't remember doing the same, if not more.

Nobody has to agree with the plan.

If nobody agrees with the plan, there's typically a damn-good reason--it being a scum-oriented one.

[mastin2]

Shos, the problem is, if there's a mafia roleblocker, that whole plan falls apart.

[mastin2]

No.

[mastin2]

I pray this game is over.

It's not, and you damn-well know it.

[mastin2]

But what really undid Mastin was his 'one white lie.'

Actually, I attribute that one white lie to being what allowed me to make it as far as I did. Let's assume you bought a totally-BSed reason for a town-me to jailkeep Grimgroove. (Any reason I'd have to jailkeep GG would be BS, because my jailkeep of him was entirely scum-oriented.)

The day would have been much shorter. Because people would have taken all claims at face value, and lynched mine. The paranoia about there being someone lying about their role, the ability to not take claims at face value, was my only realistic shot at winning the game. Be honest, Ghostlin. Would you have lynched Grimgroove if I claimed to have jailkept him? Shos if I jailkept GG? Mhork? Malakittens?

Okay. So maybe Mhork. Maaaaaaaaaybe bv. But by then, night action dictation would have outted me anyway.

This is why I don't like role madness games. I'm sure scum wins happen in them, but every role madness game I've been in has been a town win. They're simply too swingy, and too setup-reliant. I wasn't lynched for being a scummy-as-hell player. (Though, honestly, I felt like I WAS a scummy-as-hell player. ) I was lynched as part of a plan that involved setup spec and town coordination of roles. Of having broken the setup.

The game was basically a foregone conclusion once funky flipped. I had no viable fakeclaim other than my truthful one, no viable character (I realized when reading PA's fakeclaims that they wouldn't hold up), and no viable angle other than the one I took. It got me to have a plan. One that probably wouldn't have worked--but to have one all the same. I couldn't see a path to victory without the little lie.

That said, while I felt that I played strongly, and overall stronger than Mhork and Grimgroove, gotta give credit where credit's due; I got lynched and they didn't.

Also, fun fact. Mhork (among others) said that no-lynching today would be horrible for the town. In actuality, a no-lynch for the town on D2 was the second-worst thing that could have happened to me. (Lynching me, of course, being the worst. ) Grimgroove and Mhork, both being my only viable mislynch options, had night actions easily confirmable. I couldn't realistically get a mislynch on anyone else (save for maybe-shos), and only being able to block one of them, the other would be confirmed town come D3, sealing a town win.

[mastin2]

mastin, you were good in appearing town (very good), but you were bad at convincing others to mislynch anyone. Both when you pushed Mhork and me, you never managed to convince anyone we were scum.

That's because I don't believe in relying on strongarm tactics. Ultimately, I could theoretically strongman my way through a lynch on one or MAYBE two of you, but then I'd reach a dead-end. Getting people to mislynch is part of scum play, yes, but not the focus of scum play; the focus of scum play is to set up that endgame and make sure you have a realistic chance of WINNING said endgame.

In this case, had I forced the lynches through, then that would have been detrimental to the endgame I had in mind. By focusing so much on the short-term, I'd sacrifice the long-term goal I was focusing on achieving. See, a town-Mastin is typically quite short-sighted. I'm an idiot. I'll have plans, but they're not exactly well-thought-out ones. A scum-Mastin is always aiming for the long-term. In this case, by sacrificing the short-term gain of pushing through the Mhork/GG mislynches, I was hoping to get a long-term gain of potentially still being seen as town in 3p lylo.

Would it have worked? Probably not. But would it have worked better than purely strongarming my way through? I still think the answer's yes.

town beat you fair and square.

Undoubtedly. But the method they won is what I'm disappointed by. I realize that roles and their usage are

part

of the play, but as scum, if I lose, I prefer it to be because of play, and not because of roles (which're a part of play), if that makes sense. Basically, while I did lose fair and square, it was mainly because of the setup spec, roleclaims, and coming up with a gamebreaking strategy that led to that lynch--while all of those are aspects of play, they're not the core heart of play, which I see as scumhunting for town and manipulation for scum. Using them is part of scumhunting/manipulation, yes. But shouldn't be the entirety of them, which they almost were.

Mhork might have been town on other aspects, but the main draw to him being town was his roleclaim.
You being town might have been on other aspects, but the main draw was your roleclaim.
BV was a mislynch candidate, only saved by his roleclaim and the circumstances behind night-play.
shos was town through play and role, but not infallibly so for play (there were similarities to his game here to the micro where he was scum, similarities a town-me would have been pushing but a scum-me couldn't afford to risk ), and mainly got considered clear through his role.
Malakittens might have been a personal townread of mine, but was a scumread of nearly the entirety of the actual town--again only saved through her (lack of) role, via shos's track.
Ghostlin was a townread of mine, but was a scumread of nearly the entirety of the actual town--had he not had his bodyguard claim to save him, he would have been lynched D1.

Imagine instead of role madness, then, that this game were a typical micro with only ~2 power roles rather than all power roles. How many of those cease to be true? Simply put, role madness closes the door on scum's available options to push mislynches, WAY more than in a normal game, as it becomes more a game of numbers and math than it does of scumhunting and manipulation, if that makes sense. Yeah, scumhunting may influence the math (and the math contributes to scumhunting), and yeah, manipulation may change the math (and math definitely contributes to strategically manipulating), but they're simply not meant to be the central focus of a well-designed game, if that makes sense.

Basically, my main gripe isn't that you won. It's that you didn't win by looking at my play and thinking I was scum with funky. (Hell, you even said that neither my predecessor nor myself had interactions with funky that looked like scum-scum.) That's a good game for me. Getting outplayed by solid scumhunting techniques, and I have nothing to complain about other than that I wish I could have played better. Getting outplayed by running math...

...I think you get the idea. It doesn't feel like a loss, in essence. Yeah, I did lose. But it's kinda like an inversion of my town perspective. In that if I were town in this game, I wouldn't feel like I had earned my victory. But as scum, saying "town didn't earn the victory" isn't right, since they did. It's more like I didn't earn my loss, so to speak. (I'm not sure that makes sense. But I think you can follow the general principle.)

[mastin2]

Bahaha, called it.

Why do you think I killed you?

[mastin2]

And by the way...

...Now that both games are over, I'd like to point something out.

Antihero asked me to replace into Mini 241. On day one. I said, "sure, okay!". And did so. The role I landed?
...Mafia Jailkeeper. And scum (my slot) were in trouble.

PA asked me to replace into 242. On day one. I said, "sure, okay!". And did so. The role I landed?
...Mafia Jailkeeper. And scum (funky) were in trouble.

In other words, I was asked to replace in, in a similar manner, into a similar situation, landing identical roles.
Brings a whole new depth to my ranting "NOT AGAIN", because in LITERALLY BACK-TO-BACK GAMES, I got the

exact

same role.