Micro 242: Les Miserables Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #89 (isolation #0) » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:01 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Just back from V/LA, today will be busy but consider me an active participant very very soon!
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Post Post #95 (isolation #1) » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:32 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Just got time for a first quick read-through.
Initial discussion about L-1 on page 1 and anything related to it didn't seem very interesting to me.
Mhork's post I disliked, mainly because of the part where he says the odds are that funkybike is probably town but it's definitely worth pushing. I don't see how that works, first of all letting him know you actually think he's town let's him know your push on him is not something you truly believe in and thus should not concern him. Secondly it shows you're following an argument through voting you don't follow through reasoning. Why do such a thing?

Not sure I got time for a full-blown catch-up post, but I'm already quite certain Maemuki is scum. All of her posts are fluff and show tactical detachment from content.

elleheathen knows a lot about Les Miserables. I don't know a thing so most of her initial posts read like mumbojumbo to me. I do get strong townvibes from the rest of her ISO, especially her latest three posts.

I'll have to get into shos-case later, butI don't like this bit in post :

"If i am lynched
before or after I claim
, lynch my voters."

That distinction is not only irrelevant for his intended result ("lynch his voters"), it's also nonsense. It implies that he's got a strong role on the one hand, by implying the claim in itself will be pivotal enough to warrant such a distinction, yet on the other hand implies a weak role since some people could still be moved to vote him and lynch him despite his claim. It doesn't seem to add up.

More later, but sadly not today.
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Post Post #114 (isolation #2) » Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:00 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 100, shos wrote:GG 'loves me' because I 'loved him' in a game we just finished
It's already the second time you refer to a previously finished game we were in together and I just got here. My stance with regards to you in this game has got nothing to do with that game, and I'm not sure I like you trying to make it seem like it is.

In fact, I'm sure I don't like it.

But as Kazekirimaru correctly noted, I need more reads on other people before proceeding.
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Post Post #116 (isolation #3) » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:30 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Aha, I see :p Scratch what I said in that regard now. The ";" in post [post]100^/post] made it seem like you were embarking on a different point when you mentioned our love affair.
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Post Post #122 (isolation #4) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:47 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Got some time to catch up tonight! Get ready :)
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Post Post #125 (isolation #5) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:10 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I am glad to say I am fully caught up. I think I'll do this person per person. If I forgot you, it means you haven't done shit in this game, but I doubt I will have forgotten anyone.

Pretty sure elleheathen is town. During my read-through I took notes on people, and when coming across elleheathen's remarks the resemblance between what she was saying and what I had jotted down was eerily similar. This tells me she's town. I'm one of these people who believes that a train of thought always begins from a certain mindset, and that mindsets are greatly influenced by alignment. When I see someone showing the exact same train of thought as I do, I can't help but assume they have the same mindset as well. Funnily enough, she got some similar vibe when reading my first post. Maybe we're twins seperated at birth, who knows, but she's town in my book. Posts , and all had big overlaps with my line of thinking. I could start pointing them out, but maybe they'll become clear hereunder, though I'll try not to repeat too much what has been said already.

My second biggest townread is Lord Mhork, who shows solid logic, puts pressure on the people and shows sincerity in his arguments when hunting for scum. His reads in post shows a good voerview how and why he reads people, and it's looking very solid indeed. When I came into this game I had problems with his but I need to reassess that. I cans ee where he's coming from now. The difference between then and now is that I have looked at the entire L-1-debate and everything surrounding it more closely, and it looks very pressureworthy indeed. I'm filing Mhork calling funky probtown under "tricks to make scum feel at ease" of some sort.
The only thing that does bother me about Mhork, but only a tiny bit, is the fact he does seem pretty self-conscious and very very wary of people calling him scum, even when they didn't. This happened twice (in addressing funky and in addressing shos), where he's asking if they called him scum. It's the kind of overdefensiveness I generally don't like, but given everything else has been good I'm going to le tit slide and call it a character trait.

More in next post, just wanted to get this out already. Somehow feels less tedious to seperate it into several posts.

But that's two reads down at least.
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Post Post #126 (isolation #6) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:31 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I can already see right now bv310 is going to be a tough nut to crack if it needs cracking. I don't know if he does, but I find him quite hard to read, due to minimalistic interventions. But despite the minimalism, I do have to say logic shines through the little he says. Now, I try to be careful with calling the use of logic a towntell, just as much I try to avoid considering not being good at logic a scumtell. But if one is confident in displaying logic it does give off the vibe that this person is also confident that logic will get him through this game. I'm not sure if scum is in a position to think this way. They need flaws in their reasoning, evidently helped by unwitting towns helping them pave the way, to get mislynches. If someone consequently uses logic with no discernable gaps I makes me townread them.
Thus I had a townread on bv103 for a while. and showed logic, and I agreed with on shos' being anti-town, though for other reasons than he mentioned (more later in post on shos).
BUT bv103 ruined everything in his post which felt terribly artificial, which got me to rethink the things he said. There was very little about post that was towny, or at least nothing that warranted such an "OH MY GOD I'm SHOCKED AT HOW TOWNY YOU SUDDENLY LOOK"-reaction.
Looking back at his earlier posts, his and are basically him calling the "use of bad logic" = scum. It's an alluring argument and not always made by scum, but people do tend to get illogical sometimes. Scum can make use of that, and somehow I don't feel now that the simple use of bad logic warrants such a strong reaction that bv103 displayed here.
There's been a sudden shift in his narrative that I don't feel explained. This shift is obviously , but also which already feels like a preparation for the unvote of shos. Suddenly shos has become an information lynch and mos tof it have been attitude tells.

I want more from bv103 for sure today. To get things started:

@bv310
: What are your thoughts on Maemuki?
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Post Post #127 (isolation #7) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:33 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 12, Maemuki wrote:VOTE: bv310 because fellow '09.
In post 16, Maemuki wrote:
In post 14, elleheathen wrote::o
They never even 'Oooh'ed or 'Ahhh'ed.
It's not better than an opera (yet), though.
In post 49, Maemuki wrote:My collection of Les Miseràbles cast albums is potencially embarrasing. Seriously, I'm missing very few of them.

Also, shos, it benefits scum in a way (less townies) but it also leaves them at a disadvantage (because every other townie is now suspicious of them). So there's that.
In post 57, Maemuki wrote:So, Mhork, won't you even give us a teeny tiny bit of your reasoning?
In post 59, Maemuki wrote:Your vote, maybe?
In post 61, Maemuki wrote:Yet you only voted after funky did. I don't think that makes much sense, but w/e. (b'-')b
In post 79, Maemuki wrote:
In post 74, Lord Mhork wrote:For what it's worth, I'm null/town on Malakittens for that early funky attack, nullish/sorta town on elle for general feel, but I don't trust that, and null/townish on Kazekirasomethingorother but that's a really weak guttish thing based on his whole 'Morton's Fork' discussion and general attacks on funky. I'm actually feeling null/scum on Maemuki because fluffity fluff fluff and the fact that she didn't attack my following funky onto shos and scum on funky (obviously).

[Totally gonna go off topic and answer bv: 25th Anniversary Les Mis can go die in a hole. 1988 Symphonic Recording is where it's at. Phillip Quast = GREATEST JAVERT EVER. I did enjoy the 25th Anniversary Phantom, though, as much as I can enjoy Phantom of the Opera.]

I really want to lean town on bv but I just can't due to lack of evidence and all that. Please post more so I can think you're town, bv! And of course I'm solid null on Grimgroove and I think he should be prodded with a big heavy stick. Maybe a truncheon.

Malakitty, I'm interested in this back and forth you were talking about in 27 with funky as soon as your V/LA ends.

Elle
I'm sorry I didn't understand the wine reference until just now when it clicked
do you have scum games I can look at? I haven't seen you as scum yet. Also can you do that thing where you're really, really protown? I've seen you do it a lot and it's awesome. Who are your scum reads?

Kazikiramira: Whatcha thinking, pal? You look fairly townie thus far.

Funky,
why are you scum?
if you aren't scum, who is?

Maemuki, you're fluffing really hard. Granted you only have 6 posts, but most of them don't really contribute anything? Why didn't you pursue the following funky thing? What are your thoughts?

BV: Other than the shos WIFOM thing, is there any reason you suspect him? What do you think of funky?
Mhork, I think your vote on Shos was very strange - it felt like sheeping while not completely understanding why. At least funky had the decency to quote what he thought was scummy. I said that already, but you conviniently didn't catch that.
In post 99, Maemuki wrote:
In post 80, Lord Mhork wrote:You mean when you said this? Where did you say it felt like sheeping? The part where you pointed out I voted after funky did? That just looks like a random observation.

And are you saying I didn't point out why I thought shos looked scummy?
You only voted after funky did. Which is the definition of sheeping. Are you following?

Also, yes.
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Post Post #128 (isolation #8) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:41 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Sorry, I meant to add comments to that full ISO of Maemuki. But in a way this is good, because the ISO speaks for itself: Maemuki hasn't really done much in this game.

12 and 16 are fluffy, even for RVS-standards.
Post is telling in how it prioritizes fluff about Les Miserables over clarifying some game theory mechanic, which in itself is also quite fluffy considering it doesn't come with any kind of stance in the debate.
asks for reasoning from Mhork, but if you actually read the flow of the thread and are truly with your head in the game, that question is entirely useless. Mhork's reasons for voting are entirely obvious at that point, even though he did not explicitly add them. Feels like Maemuki is trying to get some scumhunting-cred by giving flak to the "argumentless vote", which is always quite popular among players of any alignment. But in this case it backfired, because Mhork's vote was not arumentless. This makes the rest of Maemuki's posts, which are all about this so-called sheeping, moot and unhelpful in the scumhunt. ignored the fact shos made matters worse for himself inbetween Mhork's initial comments on him and his vote. Post , here the usage of the word "conveniently" shows overdefensiveness.

Nope, not liking this person.
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Post Post #131 (isolation #9) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:14 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Haven't got much notes about Malakittens. Her post seemed fair enough at the time, which I feel started off the game and got people out of RVS, though one could as well give credit to funky himself for that. It feels sincere, but it's also an argument that scum could make, so mostly null. The only other thing I have about MAlakittens is , where she (rightfully) finds it odd that funky had a townread on her after that. The mere statement "just wanted to see a reaction" sounds like her weasling her way out of the engagement to investigate funky more in depth, but I feel that's more due to laziness or due to time constraints than due to alignment. It's a pity she doesn't go deeper into it all, but I guess we'll have to blame that on the V/LA business. Would like to see more of her. Townreading her for now.

Kazekirimaru (if I got this name right off the top of my head I deserve a lollipop), not so sure. His showed good logic and good reasoning about something that should have been obvious even without that explanation: "mentioning that your vote is L-1" is a nulltell. This is in a reaction to shos calling it a towntell. Kazekirimaru doesn't couple a vote to this, yet funky does (and Mhork in a way, as well). What should be noted here is that Kaze (fuck it, calling you Kaze from now on) doesn't react to these votes in any way, until . There something funny happened. Somehow the argument that "mentioning your vote is L-1" is suddenly an argument in favor of shos. That doesn't add up. Kaze suddenly changed his narrative here (always strange when that happens) and changed the Morton fork into this: "calling someone's mentioning of their vote being L-1 town is null". This was not the argument he made originally. Why now?
I also didn't like Kaze's . Even though I got comments now, I don't think he's shown the kind of activity that warrants him into expecting someone like me who just came in to have a read on him. Somehow felt like him calling me out. Confident scum? Perhaps, but I'm starting to feel I've got too many scumreads.
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Post Post #134 (isolation #10) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:17 am

Post by Grimgroove »

My laptop battery is showing I've only got 40 minutes left. Forgot my power cable at work, blergh. Hope to get my notes on funky and shos through before this thing dies on me.
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Post Post #137 (isolation #11) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:23 am

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I would have preferred for Kaze to respond to it first, but no matter, because I don't feel your reply covers it anyway :p

What made you decide to explain Kaze's behavior? What's in it for town?
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Post Post #139 (isolation #12) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:28 am

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The funny thing about both funky and shos is that they seem to excell in one thing: point at each other. The thing they fail to do is stand up for themselves. Maybe it's them being the two competing wagons for now, but it doesn't make it easier. One thing I feel confident in saying: they're not scum together. I deeply believe that, regardless of how scum they may be in their own right.

funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from : it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.

Him using Kaze's logic to vote shos, while Kaze himself sees it as a reason not to vote shos, is something I'd like to see comments on by both parties involved.
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Post Post #140 (isolation #13) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:30 am

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In post 138, shos wrote:pedit: he's answered the question already iirc
Nope, he didn't.
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Post Post #141 (isolation #14) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:31 am

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I'll have to comment on BV's latest post later, hopefully tomorrow, but in first instance I'd like to hear from him what it was about that was so towny. I don't see it.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #15) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:35 am

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In post 139, Grimgroove wrote:The funny thing about both funky and shos is that they seem to excell in one thing: point at each other. The thing they fail to do is stand up for themselves. Maybe it's them being the two competing wagons for now, but it doesn't make it easier. One thing I feel confident in saying: they're not scum together. I deeply believe that, regardless of how scum they may be in their own right.

funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from : it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.

Him using Kaze's logic to vote shos, while Kaze himself sees it as a reason not to vote shos, is something I'd like to see comments on by both parties involved.
What I forgot to add here is the rest of , where he townreads Malakittens because of a reaction that is null (something shos will be called out for later as well for another action). It feels contrived; he puts Mhork at L-1 to get reactions, gets 1 reaction from Mala, reads her as town, and considers the reaction test a success. Feels rushed. This is where I got the vibe of funky being very very nervous about something.

So many people to keep an eye on in this game. :igmeou:
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Post Post #143 (isolation #16) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:45 am

Post by Grimgroove »

LAst one for today: notes on shos.

With shos, it's not really the big picture or a general vibe I get from him, but an accumulation of little things that get me to scumread him.

It all begins with his townread on funky's L-1, which he needs to explain. His explanation is very bad logically speaking: he calls it towny because funky stated the vote was an L-1. This is normally a nullread. However, at this point I didn't think he was scummy for it. Like I said, bad logic is used all the time.
But in he's playing stupid, like elleheathen also pointed out. He's equating "not mentioning a vote is L-1 is scummy" (which is a reasonable line of thinking) to "mentioning a vote is L-1 is towny", ino rder to somehow defend his flawed logic. It doesn't feel right.
is very scummy. I never like the "if I were scum, I wouldn't have drawn attention to myself"-argument. It's not because you got the attention on you, that you willingly drew it onto you. Trying to make it sound that way comes extremely close to plain lying.
is also bad. After basically everyone has been calling the pointing out of a vote being L-1 is null, here he asks the silly question of why people consider it scummy. NOBODY DOES! Shos is playing stupid here again and I don't like it.
is anachronic and feels like an opportunistic vote on the counter wagon.
sounds like a question that he cameup with even before this game started and is null in my eyes. Could be an awkward way to get himself out of a pickle.
I don't like the "I don't understand"-part, where he's playing stupid yet again. I explained it perfectly well I think. His explanation afterwards, while I don't feel it's convincing, clearly shows he DOES understand what I mean. He's trying to play innocent through seeming unknowing.

My notes tell me I should quote post 90 for some reason. Don't remember why ut I'll do that before battery is dead.
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Post Post #144 (isolation #17) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:48 am

Post by Grimgroove »

A yes, aside from this, which I already mentioned:
If i am lynched before or after I claim, lynch my voters.
there's also this:
In post 90, shos wrote:Do you understand that me calling someone Town now leads to my lynch?
which is an oversimplification of the strong case that currently is being put against him.

Out now. Want to see people's reaction to what I said before I put down a vote. Right now I still feel more like an observer than an active participant.
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Post Post #146 (isolation #18) » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:51 am

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Yes, I grant you've tried to stand up for yourself, I just don't think you've been very good at it so far. No offence intended but yeah, that's what I meant :p
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Post Post #162 (isolation #19) » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:23 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Responses to my catch-up were underwhelming so far.

VOTE: Maemuki

Please reply in more detail.
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Post Post #195 (isolation #20) » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:49 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 188, Malakittens wrote:
In post 162, Grimgroove wrote:Responses to my catch-up were underwhelming so far.

VOTE: Maemuki

Please reply in more detail.
DANCE WITH ME. DANCE WITH ME.

WHY DIDN'T YOU VOTE EARLIER.

;-;
After my long and intensive catch-up it just didn't seem my head was in the right place of it. I had a lots of impressions on a lot of different people, making deciding on priorities difficult.
I actually explained in post . Felt more of an observer, so wanted to await personal interactions with people, in essence: reactions to my catch-up. In my view, Maemuki's was the worst.
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Post Post #196 (isolation #21) » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:14 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 187, Malakittens wrote:He doesn't have a read on me either.

I do. You probably missed it while ignoring my catch-up walls.
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Post Post #197 (isolation #22) » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:21 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 175, mastin2 wrote:And, no. I can't define Mae as being town beyond gut because it's gut.

Could you give examples of what sparked that gut, at least? You don't have to explain why, but it is helpful to show us what did.

I for one think free townreads based on gut are fishy. It's not a way to run to the defense of someone you honestly think you're town, but it can be a great way to get towncred if the lynch, against all odds, would be wrong after all. I've seen scum do it before, using the advantage of knowing what's what. It's a way of saying "I didn't want him lynched" afterwards, without actively stopping the lynch while it's happening.

In fact, I've seen you do this before as scum.

I do agree with you on elleheathen (town) and bv (probscum).

shos I'm working it out, I don't feel like going into a wall-war with him right now but his reaction to my notes on him is sub-perfect.
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Post Post #198 (isolation #23) » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:00 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 177, mastin2 wrote:I trust my guy more than I trust the reads of other people right now.
Please keep your guy out of this. Who knows where it's been...
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Post Post #207 (isolation #24) » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:34 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Don't remind me of that game...
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Post Post #209 (isolation #25) » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:39 am

Post by Grimgroove »

What do you think of Mae's arguments against Mhork?
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Post Post #212 (isolation #26) » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:57 am

Post by Grimgroove »

You don't find it at all odd Maemuki has only 1 argument against 1 person to show for her entire game?

On top of that, I disagree with the argument. It overemphasizes the importance of a vote, and undervalues the inclination Mhork had sown beforehand, as well as other contributing factors such as shos having flailed over the course of time that went on between Mhork's initial comments and Mhork's vote.
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Post Post #215 (isolation #27) » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:07 am

Post by Grimgroove »

That falls under Maemuki's inactivity in general, which I addressed myself in 212. Don't understand why you're asking me this question.
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Post Post #222 (isolation #28) » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:15 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 221, funkybike1 wrote:Mae, give me one good reason to not just hammer you and get it over with.
Because you'll be most probably be lynched if you do.
I guess this is an intent to hammer? Not too sure if it isn't too early for that. Would like to hear more from people like BV (!!), MAlakittens and of course, Maemuki herself before it gets to that.

UNVOTE:

No need to rush things. But the pressure is definitely still on, Maemuki, so don't get too comfortable and please respond.
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Post Post #229 (isolation #29) » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:20 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 227, Maemuki wrote:I'm jumping on to a Paris sewer.
I'm assuming this is some reference to a Les Miserables character? I don't know enough about it to find out which, but don't think a flavor claim would convince me either way.
Like Mhork said: we need more activity from you. Seriously. I wasn't here for the good first half of this game due to V/LA and I'm already more into this game than you are.
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Post Post #236 (isolation #30) » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:59 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 235, Lord Mhork wrote:Most games can't be broken by a flavor claim and I don't think this one would be any different.
²
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Post Post #249 (isolation #31) » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:14 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 247, Malakittens wrote:But maybe the wagon says Funky, idk /:
How does that work?
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Post Post #252 (isolation #32) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:27 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 250, Maemuki wrote:Do you literally have no other reads other than myself? It's awfully easy attacking someone who you can assume that won't answer, especially if you've checked their activity elsewhere. Out of your 20 most recent posts, 14 are about me. There is literally nothing else in them other than 'prove she's town', 'where is she', etc, etc. I think it's more likely for scum to stay hung up on what can be seen as an easy mislynch (because a lurker is an easy lynch, no matter what, especially on this case, since you have literally nothing else to hold against me other than my inactivity).
You do realize that before this post, the same can be said about you right? You had only 1 arument against 1 person to show for your game.

About your readslist on others besides Mhork:
In post 250, Maemuki wrote:
Malakittens, tbh, I don't remember any of your posts except the very last one? I've checked his ISO, and tbh, I have a bit of a null-town read on him because he does bring up some good points.
Mastin. Oh, Mastin. I don't know if you're scum buddying or not, but I really hope not, because you're pretty much the strongest town read I have. You bring up very good points so far -
Grimgroove, I like your posts. Or better yet, I like how you make your posts, but I'm not so sure of your reads
bv, I also had to go and check your posts, but I don't really have any feelings on you.
shos is...weird. Very weird. And by weird I mean he seems incredibly wishy-washy. This whole progression is extremely weird. In the span of one page, you have literally held every single postion on my lynch, from 'lol L-1' to 'nah maybe not'. Would you care to explain?
Funky, I don't like your posts much either tbh.
But! As I said earlier, I think that you're still the towniest one of the pair.

Elle, I'm on the odd situation where I simultaneously think you're town and maybe Mhork's partner. I'll think about this properly later, I'm pretty tired of looking through ISOs.
1. There are no scumreads inthere.
2. Most of the reads are not reads, but about how certain people made good points (scum can make good points), and about how others don't.
3. I especially don't like the read on Funky, which I bolded. Sounds like bartering. and an effort to antagonize Funky against Mhork somehow. In any case I find the bolded to have a very unnatural tone to it, especially when you see that just before it MAemuki says that she doesn't like his posts. Very appeasing. Doesn't add up.

I'm moving my vote back onto Maemuki, putting her on L-2.

VOTE: Maemuki
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Post Post #256 (isolation #33) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:25 am

Post by Grimgroove »

The above does not make it though my logic-filter.
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Post Post #258 (isolation #34) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:51 am

Post by Grimgroove »

You're joking, right?
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Post Post #260 (isolation #35) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:03 am

Post by Grimgroove »

So, it's interactions you want?
Then why don't you seek them with Maemuki? How do you expect to get more out of her? By voting funky?
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Post Post #263 (isolation #36) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:51 am

Post by Grimgroove »

You said that you thought Maemuki started posting well "in the last wxhile" (post 251).
What posts were you referring to and why did you think they were better?

I see very little I like in Maemuki's last post, so I'm wondering what you see.
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Post Post #266 (isolation #37) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:12 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Then why did you vote Maemuki earlier? He ha
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Post Post #267 (isolation #38) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:13 am

Post by Grimgroove »

He had even less content at the time when you voted him, now you unvote him due to his content being fewer in number than funky. This was also the case when you voted Maemuki.
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Post Post #272 (isolation #39) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:29 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 268, shos wrote:I did not unvote him due to his content being fewer. I unvoted him because I strongly believe funky is scum, and I'm less sure about his slot.
And you literally said in post that this difference in certainty is due to their ammount of posts. Literally.
So yes, you did unvote Maemuki due to this difference in numbers. This is not a misrep. You say yourself you think they're both scummy so that's not where the difference is. The difference is solely in the numbers, which are the reasons for your firmer belief in funckyscum, that being the reason for the unvote of Maemuki.
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Post Post #275 (isolation #40) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:33 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 270, mastin2 wrote:Also, I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right. :P Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.
Because funky-mhork can't be scum-scum this combination of wagons is better? Lining up lynches much?
What about the town-town combination? You seem to automatically assume just because they can't be scum-scum, they have to be scum-town or town-scum.

What is Maemuki selling? Her last post was terrible and I've even pointed out for you why.
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Post Post #277 (isolation #41) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:56 am

Post by Grimgroove »

The difference between the two graphs being their number of points.

...

Anyway, pointless discussion (hehe).
I don't think Maemuki deserves any unvoting after that last post. I find your reasons to do so odd and your way of defending it, though containing a form of logic, not entirely natural.
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Post Post #279 (isolation #42) » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:04 am

Post by Grimgroove »

And I'm saying the last post of Maemuki did not make a vote on her any less safe.
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Post Post #285 (isolation #43) » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:12 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I am disappointed with the lack of attention for Maemuki's last post. It's so bad it's really hard to miss.

Mastin is town, but I think he's a bit too proud to consider any options other than the ones his gut proposed to him when he arrived here. This makes him useless.

Malakittens for some reason let's Mastin pull her chords. I don't know if they have some meta-luvin going on, but if they don't, Malakittens proneness to being led by Mastin feels fishy.

Shos is still getting the hang of mafia-games. Pretty sure he's town but I don't generally find myself agreeing with his line of thinking.

Counting on elleheathen to help me in opening the rest of town's eyes, she seems to be a sensible person. Mhork might have other fish to fry disspelling Mastin's gut-feelings (good luck Mhork, you're still town in my book so hold on to that thought).

I need to do another ISO on funkytown. I guess I could move to vote him given this
funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from 28: it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in 33 this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.
hasn't changed much. Need to ISO him again I think.

But I want the Maemuki being a scum-option acknowledged first before possibly moving to a consensus on funky. You never know if I'm not around to see the next day, and if Maemuki is still there and I'm not I want to know that she's not going to disappear under the radar.

I will not be part of a lynch of Mhork today. I'll tell you right now I'll even prefer a no-lynch over a Mhork-lynch.

And what about bv103?
mod
? That slot has become close to unreadable, but from what I can read it doesn't look very good.

Maemuki-bv103 is my Day 1 guess for a scumteam. You guys have to pay me a tribute with a mix of Disney-songs after the game, if I am correct.
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Post Post #292 (isolation #44) » Sun Oct 13, 2013 7:58 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 288, bv310 wrote:I have a personal hatred of one-line reasoning, specifically because it looks like good content, while still leaving us with basically nothing to work with.
That's what you get for "glossing over things that don't directly affect you". This post was meant as a summary, representing my key thoughts.
If you want to know more, read the rest.

I prefer using fullnames. When I mention bv103 it's more visible than mentioning bv.
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Post Post #294 (isolation #45) » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:00 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

I don't really understand your point there.
Are you saying funky was scummy for raising reservations around the townread you gave me based on my times of posting?

I think you misread him. When he said "that's easy for scum to do", he didn't say you could be scum for giving me that townread, he said I could still be scum, timing my posts in such a way in order to look town.

Don't see anything extraordinary about that, to be honest. If anything, that kind of paranoia would be more prevalent in town. Where do you see the scummy intentions?
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Post Post #295 (isolation #46) » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:07 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

@bv310: Why did you ask Mhork and shos for more reasons to join the Maemuki-wagon, while at the same time completely ignoring mine?

When it comes to me not wanting a Mhork-lynch, I explained why I think he's town, and why, along with elleheathen, he's my main townread. It's right at the start of my catch-up, and nothing has changed since then when it comes to Mhork.

So, wherever you said there is no reasoning, I fear you simply have not read my reasoning (or did not remember it). I'll blame it on half an hour having been too short to actually read-up on this game in greater detail.
Why you'd pretend that to be enough to make statements like the one you made, I don't know.

And about me asking for your replacement, I didn't. I asked for the slot to become readable and for an update on your prod-status. In the first place the slot becoming readable is up to you.
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Post Post #297 (isolation #47) » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:56 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Maybe. But I think the main reason why you find this so convincing is because it involves you. From a third-party perspective (referring to me being a third party in the shos-funky interactions), it's not really as telling. You're reading more town now to a lot of people compared to the beginning, so it's normal you'll be getting less scrutiny compared to the initial phase.

I still prefer a Maemuki-lynch.

But I'll shut up now for a bit, I'm starting to feel I'm taking up way too much space in this topic.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #48) » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:34 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 300, mastin2 wrote:
In post 275, Grimgroove wrote:
In post 270, mastin2 wrote:Also, I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right. :P Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.
Because funky-mhork can't be scum-scum this combination of wagons is better? Lining up lynches much?
What about the town-town combination? You seem to automatically assume just because they can't be scum-scum, they have to be scum-town or town-scum.
Uhh...what?
I said the opposite
, that it's possible they're scum-scum.
I was saying before that I didn't think it was possible.
So if you want to talk to the past-me about it, I'll point out how, logically, their interactions didn't (and still don't) look like scumbuddies. I'll also talk about how they're both incredibly likely, separate from each other, to be scum, both by POE and my townreads, and by, just...well...their godawful posting. :P
So, yes. I don't think it's town-town, nor did I ever think it was town-town
.
So you didn't say the opposite...

Sorry but I'm not going to take any advice on how to be only a half-way competent scumhunter from someone who can't even read. You did not say the opposite of what I just implied. you ignore the town-town-possibility and you just acknowledged that. Don't try to make me look like an idiot, at least not for the wrong reasons. It aggravates me.
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Post Post #311 (isolation #49) » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:37 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 301, mastin2 wrote:To put it simply--what's Mae's scum motivation in pulling this move? Drawing attention to oneself, and then brushing it off when in danger is...not exactly scum-oriented behavior.

What's Mae's town motivation in pulling this move? Simple, not really caring about things, knowing that Mae doesn't need to play at 100% here. Perhaps out of apathy/boredom, perhaps in order to play casually rather than hardcore, whatever, but it's clear Mae's not giving this game much effort. And, again. I reiterate that this is not a scum behavior.

CAN it come from scum, yes, it can. IS it coming from scum, no, I don't think so.
What "move"? There is no "move"...
She didn't draw attention on herself. Other people PUT attention on her, and with her latest godawful post she lazily tried to squirm her way out of that attention field.

This is more than Mae just not participating a lot. She tried to give off the air of participation when pulling the "Mhork is sheeping"-thing, and then giving some half-assed reads on everyone in her last post. Of course it's coming from scum, there's no reason at all not to think so.
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Post Post #313 (isolation #50) » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:03 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 310, Grimgroove wrote:
In post 300, mastin2 wrote:
In post 275, Grimgroove wrote:
In post 270, mastin2 wrote:Also, I know I said (and Mae agrees) that Mhork vs. Funky can't be scum-scum, but I'm kinda getting a gut feeling today that, somehow, despite all logic pointing to that not being right, it actually is right. :P Hence, another reason why having the two wagons be Funky and Mhork would be better.
Because funky-mhork can't be scum-scum this combination of wagons is better? Lining up lynches much?
What about the town-town combination? You seem to automatically assume just because they can't be scum-scum, they have to be scum-town or town-scum.
Uhh...what?
I said the opposite
, that it's possible they're scum-scum.
I was saying before that I didn't think it was possible.
So if you want to talk to the past-me about it, I'll point out how, logically, their interactions didn't (and still don't) look like scumbuddies. I'll also talk about how they're both incredibly likely, separate from each other, to be scum, both by POE and my townreads, and by, just...well...their godawful posting. :P
So, yes. I don't think it's town-town, nor did I ever think it was town-town
.
So you didn't say the opposite...

Sorry but I'm not going to take any advice on how to be only a half-way competent scumhunter from someone who can't even read. You did not say the opposite of what I just implied. you ignore the town-town-possibility and you just acknowledged that. Don't try to make me look like an idiot, at least not for the wrong reasons. It aggravates me.
Sorry, I was in a bad temper when reading/writing that and have misunderstood. Please ignore the above or feel free to make me look like an idiot for the right reasons :p

BUT

Now you're saying they can be scum-scum. Ok. But you say that when I would ask you for reasons that they couldn't be scum-scum, you'd be able to give them. Yet you still think it's possible. Could you give reasons for that?
Both of them being scum seperate from each other isn't enough. Your post sounds like you want to have it all ways, if only to push a lynch on one of them through.

Where is funky?
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Post Post #314 (isolation #51) » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:30 am

Post by Grimgroove »

@Mastin: Would do you think of Malakittens' behavior?
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Post Post #317 (isolation #52) » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:20 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I ISO'd funkybike (who should have called himself funkytown, which is a far better name) and I don't see a lot that's scummy about the guy. Thought I would, but I didn't. Nothing. When I arrived his behavior in the beinning rubbed me in the wrong way, but somehow that completely dissappeared after reading it again now.

Did anyone actually do this?
ISO him.

I've got thee suspects, I'm extremely confident two of them are the scum we need:

Maemuki
BV310
Malakittens (don't know her meta as town, but she's cruising on this game by simply sitting on a sled, tying it up to mastin's car, and going for a little ride)

I await your reactions eagerly.

@mastin: It's strange how we disagree so profoundly on almost every read, but I do believe you're town. The problem is most of your reads, there's no denying it, revolve around gut. Really, there isn't. I'm looking forward to your Maemuki is town-case, and I sense there might be something valid in you never having seen scum play like Maemuki does now. But that doesn't dispell my worries and I can't let that primate (is that a verb?) over my own observations.
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Post Post #338 (isolation #53) » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:12 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 324, Malakittens wrote:Tech this is a lie. You have seen me play as both alignments. One as scum and one as town.
I saw you play as town? Really? When was that? Seriously don't remember.
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Post Post #340 (isolation #54) » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:00 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 336, mastin2 wrote:Then there's the fact that Mae's perfectly fine with being lynched. As scum, I don't care what kind of player you are, under pressure, you're going to be freaking out somehow, and it'll bleed into your posts eventually. Be it raging, be it desperation, or something more subtle, signs of panic will form. But as town, the opposite is true. And Mae's displaying this. That calm, relaxed, casual "no biggie" deal to being lynched.
Haven't read your entire case yet, but with the above I disagree 100%. In my experience town shows a lot more indignation over being lynched, because they know some people are mistaking by voting them. When you're telling the truth and nobody believes you, it's far more frustrating than when lying and nobody believing you.
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Post Post #341 (isolation #55) » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:08 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

I've read mastin's case and am unmoved by it. Most of it revolves around Maemuki being "relaxed", and I don't see any reason why that would be more of a town-trait than a scummy one.

He even calls her lack of scumhunting a sign of her being at ease and relaxed. While I'm very glad for her she's apparently treating this game as some kind of spa, where she can chill-out with some mud on her face, I don't see at all why this makes her town.

I do see reasons why she's scum:
- she only pursued the "Mhork is sheeping"-argument, an argument that was flawed to begin with
- she pursued it for a long time, despite its flaws
- the reads she gave on people are mostly null, and not even reads
- her vote on Lord Mhork is based on 1 argument + omgus, as far as I can see

I'm willing to wait for a replacement to drop in and claim, but I can't see what could possibly make me change my vote.
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Post Post #346 (isolation #56) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:15 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I suggest we keep the L-1 strong for the time being and not let him get too comfortable. Let's see what he produces.
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Post Post #348 (isolation #57) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:42 am

Post by Grimgroove »

You claiming your intent to hammer would be good.

Forcing him to claim while he's still not entirely with his head in the game should provide the most interesting result.
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Post Post #350 (isolation #58) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:21 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Oh yeah. Sorry about that. I kind of try to forget about that game, if we can call it a game. Felt more like a play staged by HD :mrgreen:

I remember having a strong townread on you there (or at least on the hydra).

I don't have that here, though.
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Post Post #390 (isolation #59) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:05 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 389, The Grim Reaper wrote:UNVOTE:

Agreed with . The benefits of having a twin.

Mhork stating he's had funky as a solid scumread took me a bit by surprise. I completely missed that sentiment before, and it felt at odds with how you behaved earlier. Need to double-check.
As I said before, I don't see funkybike-scum.

My current guess (though it seems I lost my chance for a Disney-song-tribute): Malakittens - bv310

I think when it comes to the latter, we'll also have to wait for a replacement.

I feel some pressure on Malakittens would be good right now. Let me just compile some precise questions and remarks before putting my vote there.
Sorry, that was me posting from a hydra.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #60) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

First, I do want to get my thoughts out on funkybike. Just ISO'd again, and I'm conflicted. Last time I didn't see him as scum, and now that I did it again, I do. I think most of it has to do with my refreshed view on the Ghostlin-slot, where I felt funky's support for it was town.

Like I said, the beginning of his game sounded quite bad really. His post , his second post in the game, already contains an inconsistency about his stance on D1 wagons. Inconsistencies are always bad, but not always telling.
Post offers an explanation. Him having fallen victim to a derphammer should lead him to dislike D1 wagons, which is at odds with what he said in 18, making that a second inconsistency. The fact that this is a rolemadness game is also irrelevant, as this refers to the possibility of a scum-quickhammer rather than a derphammer. Fear for a scum-quickhammer is usually unfounded, especially on page 1/2 of a game, so it can't exactly be called valid either.¨Post and 24 is funkytown finally taking a stance on the matter, but it doesn't hide all the inconsistencies he exposed in this regard.
and 31 are funky backpedaling.

shos barges in and townreads funky for mentioning it's an L-1. An attention-shift ensues, funkybike takes advantage of it and slips away under the radar, up to the moment where he votes shos.

Post is the complete opposite of what he was saying in the second part of 20, as he now completely discards the fear of quickhammering scum.

His reaction in to my catch-up did ring good to me, I remember. It was the reason I backed-off in hte first place. But looking back at it now, I must bow my head in shame and feel stupid: it was a crock of smelly shit, but covered with delicious whipped-appeasement.

is him leaving a wagon that has lost all traction. A town-reaction would be to recompile a case on shos, summarize it, and try to persuade others.
He states lack of desire to L-1 Maemuki, but only five posts later asks himself why he shouldn't just hammer Maemuki. This is at odds with , where I think 353 is just shows funky is learning as he's doing after my reactionto .

My views on Maemuki have been clouding my judgement on funkybike and I apologize.

VOTE: funkybike
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Post Post #392 (isolation #61) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:53 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

I'd like a reads-list from Malakittens though. She's been coasting under the wings of mastin and I don't feel very comforatable with that situation, no matter how much mastin himself likes it.
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Post Post #393 (isolation #62) » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:02 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

That was an L-1 by the way.
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Post Post #405 (isolation #63) » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:44 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Lynch funkybike immediately.
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Post Post #406 (isolation #64) » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:49 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 399, elleheathen wrote:Grim - Leaning Town, but his last post wall with the reads switcheroo gives me bad vibes. And I really hate admitting this because MYFIRSTOWNBLOCK! D: Ruined twin. Redeem, plz.
:(

I knew that switcheroo wouldn't sit well with anyone, but it is how it is. My Maemuki-tunnel clouded my judgement on funkybike, and I wanted to redeem myself of that first and foremost. It's as simple as that.

I don't buy the Town Tracker-claim by the way.

1. Because scum trackers are almost as common as town trackers, and thus it's the easiest fake claim in the world.
2. ???

@Malakittens: why no reads?
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Post Post #415 (isolation #65) » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:58 am

Post by Grimgroove »

My sentiments exactly.
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Post Post #472 (isolation #66) » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:02 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Shos is obvtown if you look at Day 1's interactions.
Malakittens is town through shos vouching for her + the logic in is undeniable. Scum wouldn't kill a confirmed fruit vendor that townreads them in a role madness.
Those two slots shouldn't be touched for the rest of the game.

Lord Mhork has always read town to me. This day is further confirmation in this regard. He seems to vouch for bv310 from what I could gather. Scum would have no interest whatsoever to put bv310 forward as confirmed town. bv310, if indeed town, would have been the ideal mislynch for scum. So Mhork's confirmation makes both Lord Mhork and bv310 also town.
Those two slots shouldn't be touched during this daystage. Maybe later some more clarification from Mhork as to why bv310 is not an option should be considered, but I don't think now is the time to do that. Further element pointing to Mhork town: The vote on Mhork in by funky. Mhork was the alternative wagon at the time. I don't think funky-scum would bus a partner at that point, especially given Mhork did have strong support in this topic whereas funkybike's case was lost, even he could see that (hence his town tracker claim).

One question for Mhork though: Why am I obvtown according to you? The way I behaved near the end of day 1 was pretty strange, I'm surprised it didn't ring your alarm bells. I can see perfectly why Malakittens would read it as a bus.

That leaves Ghostlin and mastin.

I can't see mastin as scum for several reasons. He was on funky's ass starting from his very first post. In mastin's case this is very telling, considering he made this topic: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31660. In general he was reading quite town to me, despite (or maybe because of) his reads sometimes seeming strange.

Ghostlin/Maemuki? The way funkybike was assisting in the Maemuki-lynch also makes this difficult to believe. But somehow comes off as scum dissappointed in the perfomance in his buddy. also sheds a certain light on how much he wanted a Maemuki lynch (not so much).

Ghostlin, did you crumb who you would be protecting?
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Post Post #486 (isolation #67) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:23 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 482, Lord Mhork wrote:It never even crossed my mind that it could be role related.
:facepalm:
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Post Post #487 (isolation #68) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:29 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 479, Ghostlin wrote:
In post 472, Grimgroove wrote:I can't see mastin as scum for several reasons. He was on funky's ass starting from his very first post. In mastin's case this is very telling, considering he made this topic: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31660. In general he was reading quite town to me, despite (or maybe because of) his reads sometimes seeming strange.
Mastin is Town, but it's not because he plays Professor Mafia at the local cantina; and there are reasons to push an underwhelming, newer scum player like funky under the bus, and it's precisely logic like this. T

Try harder.

(Borderline OOC: It's actually an excellent post. I think it's horrific policy to let MD lead your lynch decisions.)

1. Wat is MD?
2. Why do you bother commenting on an argument when you actually agree with the townread? I also gave comments on your slot and asked you a direct question, so it bothers me you choose to comment on this rather than my questions/remarks to you.

Question to both you and mastin:

Why would mhork-scum suddenly grant a townread on BV310? MAstin, you say Mhork doesn't want to lynch bv today, but tomorrow. Why? Why this timing? It can only get hil in trouble, because he'll have to say WHY he didn't want bv310 lynched today. There's only so many reasons, and very few of them are temporary in a way that someone can't be lynched today, but can be lynched tomorrow. I can't think of any, in fact.

After what transpired yesterday, it's obvious something occurred during the night (this is role madness...). Hence, also my facepalm when Mhork didn't take that into account when frying shos.
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Post Post #489 (isolation #69) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:45 am

Post by Grimgroove »

The way Mhork started of this day, it's suggested he has arguments to prevent this mislynch. If we run-up bv310 for a lynch and Mhork remains silent, us questioning what Mhork was on about in the beginning of this day is unavoidable and explanations would definitely be required.

A more sensible plan for scum-Mhork would be to go ahead and mislynch bv310 along with the rest of town. We'll all be none the wiser the next day because we all voted bv310. How to spot the scum? And then Mhork could more comfortably move to another suspect without having to backpedal on someone he proclaimed town before.
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Post Post #491 (isolation #70) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:24 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I think a lot will be clarified if we just go ahead and ask Mhork to explain why he's suddenly reluctant to lynch bv310.

I can't say I'm convinced by your Mhork-scum case. There's a sense of underestimation of the rest of town if you think that we'd let Mhork get away with a contradiction as large as "lynch BV" (D1) - "Don't lynch BV" (D2 - "Lynch BV" (D3), as what you suggest his plan would be. I don't see why Mhork would underestimate us like that.

I also don't see the "incredible" scrutiny point. Everyone on BV's wagon would be under the same scrutiny, allowing Mhork to hide among them and hold up mirrors whenever someone tries to shove the mislynch in his shoes. The blow to his towncred would be shared by everyone on the wagon, and thus easier to manage for Mhork than the contradiction-thing from the scenario in the paragraph above.
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Post Post #532 (isolation #71) » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:53 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

It's either mastin or Ghostlin, and I'm leaning to the latter being the scum. I'll compile my thoughts on both of them tonight in more detail before placing a vote.

I don't think we need a claim from everyone, but I'd be fine with claiming myself.

@Malakittens: Your vote on me is the product of you being at a loss for alternatives and I don't blame you. But you are wrong, and no matter how well I played as scum that one game we were in, I think you'd note some differences between my play here and there. Also remember that you were my scumpartner at the time, so I don't think you got a true feel of my scumgame there.
Why is Ghostlin town to you?
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Post Post #534 (isolation #72) » Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:41 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Before I get down to business (which will be in a couple of hours), I want to raise the following idea:

What about a no-lynch today? The way I see it, it's better than a mislynch, in which case we almost certainly lose a town-pr given this is role madness. It gives us all an extra night to work things out, abilities etc.
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Post Post #537 (isolation #73) » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:09 am

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The thing I started considering: this is a role madness, so we can count on the remaining scum to have tricks up his sleeve, possibly countering some of our powers. Double-checking certain statements that were made today can't hurt, and a mislynch would limit our possibilities in this regard.

My overview of Ghostlin/mastin will probably have to wait for tomorrow. Busy night.
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Post Post #551 (isolation #74) » Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:39 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I'm Gavroche, Town Follower.

I went to bv310 last night. Result: "No result". This means either I was blocked, or he was blocked.
It doesn't mean he didn't do anything, because then I would have gotten "None" as a result.
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Post Post #557 (isolation #75) » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:04 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Not as interesting as I wanted it to be, as it's entirely inconclusive.
Hoping to be able to invest more time in this game today, in order to get my thoughts sorted and communicated.
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Post Post #559 (isolation #76) » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:25 pm

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It was my initial reaction to do so, that's why I had put all these questionmarks after 2. in post . His claim seemed far too reminiscent to my role.
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Post Post #569 (isolation #77) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:03 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I'm not liking all these pre-emptive explanations. Why would you think a true-claim through to such an extent?

Sounds more like a fakeclaim that's been checked and double-checked for holes, and is now confidently being presented by mastin.

It's too intricate. If mastin were truly a jailkeeper I don't see why he'd have thought about how much sense his role makes. He'd know the role was there, he wouldn't have to wonder WHY it's there and how much sense it makes.

Hrm.
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Post Post #570 (isolation #78) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:04 am

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In post 567, Lord Mhork wrote:What's your name, mastin?

Btdubs I don't believe his claim. He committed a certain tell that I've actually found surprisingly strong when it comes to role claims. Plus there's way too much preemptive defense in there for me to feel comfortable. It was very forced and polished, like he'd been thinking really hard about how he'd put it

PEDIT:
It's not even that intricate of a claim. Like, at all.
Agreed.
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Post Post #573 (isolation #79) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:29 am

Post by Grimgroove »

What do you make of my claim Mhork?
The way I understood it, you also visited bv310 last night. Do the results of that visit resonate in any way with the claim I have made?
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Post Post #576 (isolation #80) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:06 pm

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In post 505, Lord Mhork wrote:I can say that I believe very, very strongly in town bv right now.
You need to explain this Mhork.
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Post Post #580 (isolation #81) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:16 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Are you allowed to post that letter you sent to elleheathen, right here and now, in the topic?
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Post Post #581 (isolation #82) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:20 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 575, Lord Mhork wrote:Also mastin, Marius makes absolutely 0 sense as a Jailkeeper. Like, everyone else has made at least some semblance of sense, except this one. You claim is fake and awkward like funky's was with the bishop.
I kind of agree.

However, what is also odd, is a mailman who
writes
letters. Mailmen generally deliver letters, but they do not write them.

Also, you role is very similar to elleheathen's role. It basically boils down to delivering something. Whether it's a letter, a fruit or a drink, I don't see how that makes much difference. I don't understand the added value of a letter, what's to stop you from writing down those reads before the night ends, in the topic?

It does explain why you townread BV310 now though, also if you're scum. You had no choice because BV310 would bring up the neighborizing argument himself in case he would get a wagon on him (if he'd get active in this game at least).

Did you get to talk in the neighbourhood?
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Post Post #582 (isolation #83) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:25 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 571, Ghostlin wrote:Although it leaves us with one fact: I'm roughly 80% clear, unless there's a really odd scum/town distribution.
I don't understand this post. Could you explain?
Have to add that something about 566 and 568 rings very town to me. Curious about the follow-up to that. Getting convinced Ghostlin is who he says he is.
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Post Post #583 (isolation #84) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:25 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

@Mhork: Can you post the letter you sent in this topic?
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Post Post #588 (isolation #85) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:44 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Going back to basics, this really doesn't read like a scum-scum-interaction to me.

(Kazekirimaru is mastin's predecessor)
In post 108, Kazekirimaru wrote:
In post 87, elleheathen wrote: What do you think about it?
What's your read on Mhork? And on funky?
Think about what?
Leaning town and hard scum respectively.


@Grimgroove: No read on me?

Don't think I support a shos wagon. Feels bad. reads genuine.
In post 109, funkybike1 wrote:Er, what? You haven't said a thing about me other than your "srs bsnz" vote and the Morton's Fork thing. Could you elaborate?
In post 110, Kazekirimaru wrote:You elaborated enough for me, really.
Also, I think given the circumstances, shos and Malakittens should claim as well. It might clear up some things.

I believe Mhork's claim. I also follow his logic on BV being town.
I believe Ghostlin's claim.

I'm having difficulties with MAstin's claim, and with his play on D2 (his wild push on Mhork), but I'm hesitant, partially because of the quotes above, but also the interactions with funky in general.

I'm certain shos is town. At least, certain enough. Everything in D1 points to it.

The thing I need clarified now: is his check on Malakiitens fool-proof? Aren't we missing something there?

I'd like shos to claim.
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Post Post #590 (isolation #86) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:47 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Seals the deal for me: Mhork = town.
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Post Post #591 (isolation #87) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:48 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Very nice poem by the way :mrgreen:
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Post Post #619 (isolation #88) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:03 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 612, shos wrote:Scum cannot be mastin blocking ghost cuz gg wss blocked too itherwise hed see bv visiting mhork
This is you assuming Ghostlin actually did get blocked, which has been far from confirmed.
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Post Post #620 (isolation #89) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:12 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 606, Malakittens wrote:
Some moderators will tell Followers whose targets did not visit anyone "No Result", which is indistinguishable from the result they would have gotten if the Follower were Roleblocked.
- Mafia wiki on Follower.
Some moderators, but not penguin_alien. My role pm clearly states that this is the list of possible results I get: investigative, protective, manipulative, killing, miscellaneous, none, no result

If bv simply wouldn't have gone anywhere, I would have gotten 'none'.
If I hadn't been blocked, I would have gotten 'miscellaneous'.

mastin is the remaining scum.

I understand shos' concerns, I had similar ones when funky claimed and voted him over it as well. However, I did see shos also outright said funky's claim didn't check out. If I had been scum i'd have picked another fakeclaim.

But it is what it is, I am a town follower and I am Gavroche.

You could lynch me now to be certain, but a lynch on mastin is preferrable and I'm pretty sure it would give us an immediate win.

Also, the combination tracker and follower isn't that out there, if you keep in mind shos apparently is a compulsive tracker who can't change his target.

VOTE: mastin2
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Post Post #621 (isolation #90) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:13 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 617, Malakittens wrote:I'm waiting on Bv before I do anyting.
Mhork's claim checks out. The letter should tell you that.
It's either me or mastin.
It's mastin.
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Post Post #622 (isolation #91) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:27 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

UNVOTE:

Mhork, why were you scumreading shos at the end of Day 1?
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Post Post #623 (isolation #92) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:31 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 428, Lord Mhork wrote:Idea:
VOTE: /malakittens
And why did you vote MAlakittens shortly after Day 2 started, even though you considered her town right before the night started?
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Post Post #625 (isolation #93) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:18 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Ghostlin has no way of knowing whether or not he was blocked.
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Post Post #627 (isolation #94) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:28 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Don't be lazy please.
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Post Post #630 (isolation #95) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:58 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

VOTE: mastin
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Post Post #631 (isolation #96) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:59 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

^^ L-1
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Post Post #633 (isolation #97) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:00 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Getting BV inhere before the day ends wouldn't be bad either.

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #634 (isolation #98) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:16 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

The possibilities that are all flowing in my mind:

shos is conftown as far as I’m concerned. His claim is robust, and so is his play. He should not be touched, and as long as he’s around for LyLo, we have a good chance of winning this.
Lord Mhork is obvtown. His behavior towards bv310 is perfectly explained, and his claim checks out. I don’t think that at this point in time, he could make up a poem like that in such short notice, added to the fact that the content of that poem needed to be consistent with his reads at the end of Day 1. As far as I can see, this is the case. It would take a HUGE effort for Mhork to come up with a poem like that at this point in time. Only sidenote: Lettersending could be a scum-ability. In theory. But mhork’s behavior in the topic is extremely town. Combined with the block on me that would make Mhork a Roleblocking Lettersending Goon. Sounds like too much. Mhork is town.
Ghostlin, well, I guess there should be a protective role in this game, and a Bodyguard makes most sense. He could be lying, but his percentage-thing is correct, no matter what mastin’s alignment, his statements make Ghostlin close to conftown. His latest behavior is looking good as well.
Mastin, like I said, the D1 of both kazekirimaru and mastin point against a funky-mastin scumteam. This gives me great pause. But his push on D2 on Mhork is even more farfetched than his towncase on Maemuki, and his claim of a JK sounds off, for many reasons. He’s my main possibility for a lynch now.
Malakittens, well, we don’t have much to go on besides shos claim she didn’t go anywhere andshe claiming she’s got something up her sleeve. My only concern with this slot is that she could be a ninja. But given everything that’s been going on here (my block, elle’s kill), this would make her a Roleblocking Ninja Goon, which doesn’t seem highly possible. Malakittens is town.
For the same reason I have trouble believing BV310 is scum. What are the chances of there being a Roleblocking Neighbourizing Goon? Sounds like overkill, no?
Mastin sounds like the most reasonable lynch-choice of today.
For the coming night, all that needs to be ensured is that shos survives. I am a possible mislynch fors cum so normally I’ll live, but will possibly be blocked again.
I had to write this in a word-document and copy-paste it, sorry if lay-out is screwed up because of this. I’m in a meeting right now :p
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Post Post #635 (isolation #99) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:24 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 594, Malakittens wrote:I got one moar trick up my sleeve, but I still don't want to be BG'd.
One more trick?
Did you already use a trick?
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Post Post #636 (isolation #100) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:27 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

I think MAlakittens should claim as well. Don't see why she should be above all this.
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Post Post #640 (isolation #101) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:22 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 638, Malakittens wrote:Why on earth would there be a need for two trackers? One being weak and other being strong?
They're both weak. The tracker is compulsive, and the follower gets results that are not necessarily conclusive.

Answer my question. Why did you say you have one "more" trick up your sleeve? What have you already done?
How does that fit in with you not wanting to be BG'd?
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Post Post #641 (isolation #102) » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:23 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 638, Malakittens wrote:Why on earth would there be a need for two trackers? One being weak and other being strong?
By the way, the same can be said about the jailkeeper and bodyguard.
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Post Post #646 (isolation #103) » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:33 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Malakittens needs to claim before we lynch anyone. It will help town to formulate a plan for when we get into the night and mastin is not scum.
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Post Post #651 (isolation #104) » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:17 am

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VOTE: mastin

As long as shos survives the night, I foresee few problems.
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Post Post #652 (isolation #105) » Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:17 am

Post by Grimgroove »

^^ L-1 again
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Post Post #663 (isolation #106) » Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:11 am

Post by Grimgroove »

UNVOTE:

Eh.
Need to go over things once more. mastin's got a point with this redundancy thing.
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Post Post #676 (isolation #107) » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:44 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

I've looked at MHork's interactions with funkytown, and I'm suddenly very inclined to vote him.

Take a look yourself.
In post 30, Lord Mhork wrote:Oh wow

VOTE: funkybike1

Pointing out that you're backpedaling doesn't make it any less sketch. You put me at L-1 on page one; you don't just drop it when someone points out what you did. In addition the fact you you seem to not have noticed the logical disconnect between your not liking putting someone at L-2 in the first page and putting me there with 5 posts of that. You don't even provide real rationale for jumping on me, implying that you're just bullshitting opinions.

Odds are you're probably town because very few scum are that dense, but it's definitely something worth pushing.


What exactly is your opinion of early game wagons?
That sentence always rang weird to me, and a scum-bus could fit with this. Provide a real argument as to funky-scum,b ut for some reason take the heat off and leave the door open to get off that wagon.
In post 56, Lord Mhork wrote:What's Morton's fork?

VOTE: shos

Don't worry, funky. I haven't forgotten you.
He votes shos for the townread shos gave to funky. In a way this can still be considered a bus to funky, but Mhork chooses another wagon. This is illogical: Mhork claims to think funky is scum. shos thought funky was town at that point. Mhork moves his vote away from funky and moves it to shos. It seems to fit, but it really is rather awkward if you think about it.
In post 74, Lord Mhork wrote:
Funky,
why are you scum?
if you aren't scum, who is?
It feels like a pretty blanket statement with little engagement, and very few additional arguments. It feels as if MHork doesn't need a lot of arguments to call funky scum, apart from what he said right after RVS.
I think a typical thing for scum bussing scum, is that they call eachother scum but don't really bother with formulating arguments. Psychologically this is understandable, since for scum it oes without saying their buddy is scum.
In post 96, Lord Mhork wrote:Oh yay Grim is prolly town woohoo!

Scum is somewhere in Mae/Krazy/Shos. GG.
He forgot funkytown here. Despite having called him obvscum plenty of times before.
In post 186, Lord Mhork wrote:Then what are your thoughts thus far? Who do you think is scum? I mean other than obv scum funky.
Still no additional arguments. and he keeps finding reasons not to vote said obvscum.
In post 374, Lord Mhork wrote:Oh Ghostlin is adorable. He's one of those players.

1) I suppose I'll buy that for now. A body guard is a nice, low powered role especially for a Role Madness setup.

UNVOTE: Ghostlin

2) What do you make of the fact that elle and I have been voting together for awhile? You say that it's suspicious, but why exactly is it suspicious? Especially with GG too? We all have mutual town reads on one another last I checked, why wouldn't we vote together?

3) This isn't power tunneling. I've been stuck on Mae for awhile because SHE QUIT POSTING. If you read my posts, you'd see all sorts of angles I've been pursuing. There was Grimgroove. There was shos.
There's still funkybike.
And there's been Mae. How have I been tunneling? How have I been optimistic? Am I not allowed to point out suspicious activity once someone stops posting? Is that a free pass to scummy behavior?
Cosy in the middle.
Elle, bv or funky? I still find funky scum but I really don't like that bv dropped off the radar. What do you think?
Still thinks funky is obvscum, still no additional arguments, and trying to find another reason to vote someone else over funky, in this case bv. Looking for support towards elleheathen.
In post 376, Lord Mhork wrote:That was a question directed at you. >.>

Elle, (should we lynch) bv or funky?
The question repeats itself. Despite having had an obscum read on funky for the entire day, he wants to consider the option of a lurker-lynch.
In post 388, Lord Mhork wrote:Your death tunneling thing is wrong Ghostlin.

This is a post I made where I explained my reads on people. It's not like I am ignoring anyone. Well except bv but that's mainly because I forgot he existed. I'll admit I got a little distracted, but that was more because I was waiting for Mae before I could move on.

In addition you can note that I have attacked shos. I've attacked funky. I've attacked Mae. I've even semi attacked mastin. The only reason it looks like I'm 'tunneling' is due to the fact that my attacks on her have lasted longer. Which isn't my fault. Again, it stemmed from her not posting. You'll note that I wasn't saying much of anything while I was waiting for Mae. It's not like I've been bullying through anything. I don't even see where you're getting opportunism from.

Now that you mention it, it is odd that bv stopped posting. I admit that's my bad, but I was distracted. Being distracted when pursuing a scum read is hardly a scum tell. It's minor tunneling, but not tunneling to the sheer extent that you have made it out to be.

As for funky, I haven't really pushed him because I think he's scum. He's, like, solidly scum. What is there to be gained pushing there? I've been more interested in sorting out the null/scums.


You're gonna have to refer me back to the shos vote thing because I can't remember what that is.

Your push on me is bad, but at least it's not mastin bad. I'm not saying you're cleared as town by any stretch, but I feel better about you than I felt about Mae.


Elle hurry I can't decide :o

For now:
VOTE: funkybikeone
Finally the vote. But the thing in bold sounds far from natural.

I've decided. Props on the poem Mhork, but you're scum.

Also, looking at the night actions, it makes sense. Mhork killed Elleheathen and blocked me. He called us town, so he had to neutralize us in another way: during the night.

Also props to mastin. He makes no sense but it seems he was correct about all his reads. Reminiscent of an oracle, talking jibberish but truthful and full of wisdom at the core.

Sorry if I'm running ahead of things, but I really feel I've had an epiphany here.

VOTE: Lord Mhork
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Post Post #680 (isolation #108) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:21 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Why do you call them "wrong reasons"?
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Post Post #681 (isolation #109) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:50 am

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In post 678, Lord Mhork wrote:I have class.
I got style.
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Post Post #686 (isolation #110) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:02 am

Post by Grimgroove »

UNVOTE:

I want to hear Mhork's plan for the night first.
Going to reply in more detail to his reply.
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Post Post #687 (isolation #111) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:03 am

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In post 685, Lord Mhork wrote:And I learned a lot from doing that yesterday. I confirmed Ghostlin as town to me. I figured that shos had good odds being town.
That's not what you wrote in your poem.
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Post Post #688 (isolation #112) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:06 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 685, Lord Mhork wrote:
That comment is actually far more common on me than most. It has to do with the fact that I have a shit time reading people and thus usually don't believe my own reads. It's not like I necessarily have no reads, but that I can always see where I could be wrong. For instance I can totally see the argument for mastin town and mastin scum, just like I can see arguments for every single player. And the fact of the matter was that his post was so obviously scummy that I was hesitant to think that I could actually have caught scum being scummy. That, like, never happens for me. I usually blatantly misread people. Saying 'you're probably town' was the 'too scummy to be scum' fallacy. Make sense?
Sure, those doubts are normal I guess. But what happened to those doubts during the rest of Day 1?
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Post Post #689 (isolation #113) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:08 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 685, Lord Mhork wrote:Ask yourself: where is the scum motivation to kill my biggest town advocate and leave alive the dipshit who did nothing but call me scum for bad reasons?
Euh.

WIFOM?
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Post Post #691 (isolation #114) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:36 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Jesus Christ this game...
I need to think about your plan.
One flaw I see: If mastin isn't scum, it means he didn't lie about who he blocked, which means that whoever blocked me isn't mastin and is scum, who'll still be there to foil the plan.

You got one thing right: I have gotten paranoid.

shos: Can you tell me what your result was on Malakittens? Was it "she went nowhere", or was it "no result"?

bv310, please please please get your head in this game.

I still stand by my ISO on Mhork's itneractions with funky. They still feel off to me, and I can't unsee what I've seen, even though Mhork's reply came fast and to the point. It's difficult not to be convinced.

Jesus, this game :|
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Post Post #692 (isolation #115) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:41 am

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There's an even bigger flaw in your plan: you're leaving shos unprotected.

I would rather be killed myself because I'm still a possible mislynch. shos is invaluable to us because he isn't. He needs to be kept alive.
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Post Post #694 (isolation #116) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:48 am

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If shos gets killed and I get blocked that leaves us with absolutely nothing the next day.
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Post Post #696 (isolation #117) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:52 am

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Ah, unless you send shos a poem.

Yes.

Ghostlin bodyguards shos, ensuring his survival.
You send your poem to shos, so that he can at least confirm that part of your claim. If he can confirm that part, it confirms to me you haven't been lying about having sent that letter to elleheathen, and would clear you from her death, as you wouldn't be sending a poem to someone you'd kill.
shos tracks Malakittens automatically. If she's a ninja (my biggest fear, I'm just telling myself I'm being irrational considering it) this will be of no use, but ok.
I'll try following bv310 again.

Scum might try to block you, so you can't send the letter, but will in the process allow me to clear/catch bv310.

This could work, right?
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Post Post #698 (isolation #118) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:02 am

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Hmm, but scum could block Ghostlin and kill shos.
Where does that leave us then?

FUCK
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Post Post #702 (isolation #119) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:46 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I already unvoted Mhork again.

To address your immediate question:
In post 700, Ghostlin wrote:Grim, I want you to ask the mod (yes, you're going to have to be the one to do it) what the result would be if you were blocked versus your target going nowhere.

I don't need to ask the mod. My role pm is already quite clear on that, by enumerating the following possible results:

investigative, protective, manipulative, killing, miscellaneous, none, no result

The last two are the answer to your question. If the target hadn't one anywhere, I would have gotten "none".
But I got "no result", meaning I got blocked (because bv310 obviously didn'y).
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Post Post #708 (isolation #120) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:51 am

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There can be a roleblocker on townside and one on scumside, and I wouldn't expect the one on scumside to claim it when he saw the guy on townside already do it.

This is not as convincing an argument as you think it is Ghostlin, think it through :p

Welcome to the mindfuckfest by the way.
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Post Post #714 (isolation #121) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:43 am

Post by Grimgroove »

shos-Ghostlin is a solid townblock, right?

I'm not excluding Malakittens as a ninja, I'm sorry but I can't. With both a follower and a tracker in the game, a Ninja in the scumteam makes sense. This is not just paranoia. And to be frank, her play has been underwhelming and her push on me pings me.
Mhork, there's the interactions with funky that I noted and that I have a hard time putting out of my mind. The overlap mailman-fruit vendor annoys me.
Mastin, there's his farfetched towncase on Maemuki and his farfetched scumcase on Mhork, both cases requiring stretches of logic and a whole lot of bellygut-stuff.
BV310 is a lurker with a non-alignment indicative ability.
And to top it all of, I realize my own behavior isn't obvtown either, due to me letting funky slip under my radar for too long, and having a night-result that can't be confirmed by anyone.

This provides a reasonable pool of mislynches for scum, and lots of end-game strategies.

This had led me to conclude I don't think I'll be able to reach a conclusion without any doubts.

Let's consider the no-lynch idea.

First, a theoretical question:
If mastin would jailkeep bv310, would bv310 still be able to use the neighbour QT?

If not, here's a possible plan:

We don't lynch, everyone lives to see the night.

mastin jailkeeps bv310. (Mhork can maybe check if this happens: if bv310 posts in the neighborhood, mastin didn't follow the plan and should be lynched. Of course, this requires bv310 to be here in the first place)
Ghostlin protects shos.
Mhork sends a poem to shos.
shos follows Malakittens.
MAlakittens does whatever it is she does to me (so she can be confirmed the next day).
I follow mastin.

shos will be able to tell us more about Mhork regardless of what happens, getting rid of one of the possible mislynches or leading us to the remaining scum.
If scum kills, we'll know it won't have been bv310 as he's been blocked.This removes yet another possible mislynch.
Malakittens visits me. shos will be able to confirm this through his tracking-function, thus clearing Malakittens of being a ninja. If I die, it doesn't clear her, but it does clear bv310, and possibly Mhork if he has sent the poem, leaving the choice between Malakittens and mastin, and with still a possible mislynch for us.
If I don't die, I'll be able to tell you guys what mastin did, regardless of the effects of a jailkeeping on neighborhood-activities.

I think this plan is as watertight as it gets.

Suggestions for improvement are welcome.

But I think we should no-lynch. We can get rid of more possible mislynch-tracks by keeping people alive to see the night and do their thing.
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Post Post #716 (isolation #122) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:50 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Oh valiant knight, what have I said that is so unreasonable?
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Post Post #718 (isolation #123) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:55 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 717, mastin2 wrote:She can't be a roleblocking-ninja, though
It's an idea I played with before. I refer to .
I grnt you that it's unlikely, but I can't exclude it.

In any case, it's not as if I want her lynched over these doubts. I want to double-check first. Hence, my plan. Have you seen it?
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Post Post #720 (isolation #124) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:59 am

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Your certainty concerning MHork-scum subsided awfully quick, considering how thin your argument against me really is.
If anyone scumslipped, it's you. No way would town-mastin forget about all convictions surrounding MHork. No way would town-mastin, so proud on the strength of his townreading-skills, cast aside a townread of his over something like this.
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Post Post #721 (isolation #125) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:01 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 719, mastin2 wrote:
In post 718, Grimgroove wrote:Have you seen it?
Skimmed it, looked like it didn't work.
Maybe not everything of the plan will work, but parts of it definitely will, providing results.

But right now, I actually just want to lynch you. That vote on me is terrible.
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Post Post #722 (isolation #126) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:01 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

But first I want others to gve their opinion on my plan.
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Post Post #725 (isolation #127) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:13 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

It's not stupid. The QT is the only possible flaw, but it's not a flaw that makes the entire thing topple down.

Look:

The basis is:
Ghostlin protects shos.
Mhork sends letter to shos.
shos tracks Malakittens.
MAlakittens does what she does to me.
Grimgroove follows mastin.
mastin jailkeeps bv310.

We are bound to get at least one result. Even if scum decides to block Ghostlin and kill shos, which would be the worst case scenario, I get to share my result on mastin, and maybe confirm MAlakittens' action. Ghostlin will still be alive as conftown to boot.
If mastin killed shos, I'll have seen it, and it's 1vs1 between me and him, ensuring our eventual win. If he didn't kill shos, shos will be able to share his results. If someone else killed shos, at least I can clear mastin, and we have two conf-towns with Ghostlin and mastin.
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Post Post #726 (isolation #128) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:16 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 724, mastin2 wrote:If you're town, why are you so concerned about my switch to you?
That's a ridiculous question to ask.

You downplay your former townread on me now, but the cases you've made for me town, setup specs included, were far more convincing and logical than anything you've presented on Maemuki or Malakittens.
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Post Post #727 (isolation #129) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:17 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 725, Grimgroove wrote:It's not stupid. The QT is the only possible flaw, but it's not a flaw that makes the entire thing topple down.

Look:

The basis is:
Ghostlin protects shos.
Mhork sends letter to shos.
shos tracks Malakittens.
MAlakittens does what she does to me.
Grimgroove follows mastin.
mastin jailkeeps bv310.

We are bound to get at least one result. Even if scum decides to block Ghostlin and kill shos, which would be the worst case scenario, I get to share my result on mastin, and maybe confirm MAlakittens' action. Ghostlin will still be alive as conftown to boot.
If mastin killed shos, I'll have seen it, and it's 1vs1 between me and him, ensuring our eventual win. If he didn't kill shos, shos will be able to share his results. If someone else killed shos, at least I can clear mastin, and we have two conf-towns with Ghostlin and mastin.
Oh, and if I can clear matin, it also clears bv310.


Seriously, this is not a bad plan.
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Post Post #728 (isolation #130) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:18 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Or at least not a bad start to a plan. You can finetune it if you want, but simply casting it aside would be dumb, given the benefits presented from the plan as it stands, and possibly more to be had.
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Post Post #730 (isolation #131) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:26 pm

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No, roleblocking can fuck something up, but not everything.
And mastin is forced to follow guidelines. If he doesn't, we'll notice it one way or another. The only way we wouldn't is if he kills me and blocks you. I don't mind that. At least he'd be forced to kill one of the possible mislynches. Or he blocks me, but then who does he kill? Again, one of the possible mislynches. And all the while, shos can give us more information about you.
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Post Post #732 (isolation #132) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:37 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

Ok, let's say we lynch mastin, he ends up being town after all, and we keep him out of the plan equation:

Ghostlin protects shos.
Mhork sends letter to shos.
shos tracks Malakittens (is a given)
Malakittens does what she does to me.
Grimgroove follows bv310.
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Post Post #738 (isolation #133) » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:54 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

VOTE: mastin
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Post Post #741 (isolation #134) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:33 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 739, Malakittens wrote:I really don't know if its Mastin. Going by posts and everything I don't think he's scum, but his claim really felt similar to the claim back in a micro when he replaced a scum slot. /:
Link please.
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Post Post #743 (isolation #135) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:29 am

Post by Grimgroove »

shos, what do you think of this plan in case we lynch mastin and he'd flip town?

Ghostlin protects shos.
Mhork sends letter to shos.
shos tracks Malakittens (is a given)
Malakittens does what she does to whoever she wants, but she needs to do it.
Grimgroove follows Mhork.


The thing is, we can't really do this plan in mastin's case after a Mork-lynch. His role, if true, would make things too complicated, given if it's true we know scum has the same ability as he does in a way (roleblocking), so there will never be a way to be certain that it was mastin blocking someone and not scum, or scum blocking mastin etc. My head hurts even thinking about it.
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Post Post #745 (isolation #136) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:48 am

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In post 744, shos wrote:Anyone considered 3rd party existence?
No, because absolutely nothing in this game points to their existence. Don't overcomplicate things.

If Mhork sends you a letter it DOES confirm him as town. I refer to the logic presented above.

You are conf by the topic. How did Mala conf you?
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Post Post #746 (isolation #137) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:49 am

Post by Grimgroove »

Ah yes, by agreeing she didn't go anywhere.
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Post Post #755 (isolation #138) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:29 am

Post by Grimgroove »

The 180 in on both me and Mhork confirm mastin as scum really. The plan for the night is good enough as a fallback, but considering the circumstances, it doesn't need to be perfect (meaning we probably won't need it anyway).

Hammer away please.
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Post Post #757 (isolation #139) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:15 am

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I'm getting the feeling mastin is going for a badge of honour here, trying to get a mislynch before he goes down.

First thing I want to say before getting into replying to him: look at his reason for suddenly suspecting me, and even worse, making me his prime suspect (over Mhork).

The argument is that I am scum for contemplating the idea of a Ninja Roleblocker. That is it. Ever sinc ehe has turned 180 degrees and decided to paint everything else I do (the plan) as scummy.

It's fairly obvious what mastin is doing, at least to me. He has taken note of Malakittens' paranoia when it comes to me, stemming from a previous game and thought he could use it to his advantage. and as evident from his last explanation, he also seems to think that this switch will make him look like paranoid-town (like the rest of us), earning him townpoints.

But he was careless. He cannot explain such a 180-turn. He can't. He was CONVINCED Mhork was scum. Now he's CONVINCED I am scum, and wants to work together with Mhork, who he suddenly wants to consider possible town. And all over the one, single argument that I think a Ninja Roleblocker could be a possibility.

(As a side-note about this possibilty: I've given it some more thought, and actually don't think there will be a ninja, and if there is, it will be an X-shot (probably 1). Why? Because in case it wouldn't be, both my role and shos' role would be a complete liability to town. It wouldn't balance things, it would just make our roles anti-town. So X-shot ninja at the most, and given shos has to keep following Malakittens due to his compulsive nature (talking about the role) and Ghostlin will protect shos, this matter will clear out itself if necessar)

And that's why I got convinced mastin is scum. His argmuent for Mhork-scum had Always been a stretch, but this really takes the cake. The fact he abandons his Mhork-scum arguments so easily means he never really felt so strongly about them in the first place. Yet he certainly gave off the impression that he did. Why? Scum going for a mislynch.

I guess in his mind this plan came with a bonus. That bonus being my mislynch. He finds a supposed "slip" from my part, tries to power through a lynch on me over that, and can get back to his Mhork-business tomorrow. All the while saying "I was convinced it was a slip".

If I get mislynched you simply cannot let mastin get away with it. CANNOT.
In post 756, mastin2 wrote:
In post 755, Grimgroove wrote:The 180 in on both me and Mhork confirm mastin as scum really.
You began to scumread me this heavily after I reversed my opinion on you and called you scum. While you had voted me before then, you were not pushing me as hard as you are now.
Town uncertainty caused me not to push you as heavily. But I did push you. I scrutinized your cases. I've ISO'd your and your predecessor's past. I openly voiced my doubts surrounding your claim.

My problem was: too many alternatives. Partially due to paranoia, partially due to a great set-up (seriously, it is), and partially to some townies having come off scummy regardles sof my paranoia.

Now, I am pushing you hard because your mask has fallen. That 180 makes absolutely no sense.
You're displaying OMGUS survivalistic tendencies, painting me as confirmed scum because you know that you need me mislynched in order to stand a chance at victory. This makes no sense from a town-GG perspective, anyway.
Of course it makes sense. I see someone trying to lynch me over bullshit. That's what it is. Bullshit, and some circumstancial arguments as a sider. Absolutely nothing tangible.
Shos was supporting an Mhork lynch. Why would a scum-Mastin abandon a wagon that's
just beginning to gain traction
in favor of switching to a wagon on someone that could very well condemn him the next day?
You can always go back to the MHork-wagon tomorrow and hope it gains traction again. By the way, it wasn't gaining traction. It did at some point, but it lost it again before you started calling me out.
I wouldn't. If I were scum, I'd still be on Mhork. I could continue to tunnel him all day, and be townread for having done so. But no. I'm not scum, wanting to survive. I'm not scum, trying to look good. I'm not scum, trying to mislynch. I'm town, trying to get scum lynched, and I think the scum is
YOU
.
Even though I don't know what you look like, I can picture your face when typing that up perfectly :lol: Liking the theatrics, but content of that line = zero. It boils down to "I wouldn't do this as scum. I'm not scum. you are.". Not so convincing without the theatrics, hm?
It's the weekend, so I don't have much time to explain, but I'll run through Grimgroove's plan, assuming he's a mafia roleblocker, and show why it's beneficial to a scum wincon come Monday.
Nobody has to agree with the plan. At least I'm suggesting a plan, everyone is welcome to propose adjustments according to their concerns, and we talk it over. All that has happened to my plan so far is that it has been largely ignored.

Assuming I'm the mafia roleblocker while reading my plan is not town-beahvior mastin. Whenr eading the plan, you need to vkeep those options open before reading it. What you're planning to do come Monday is read what I say with a pre-assumption (I'm a roleblocker) you'll want to prove. This is not an honest exercise. It's deciding that the sky is blue before even having looked up.
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Post Post #758 (isolation #140) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:22 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 757, Grimgroove wrote:It's fairly obvious what mastin is doing, at least to me. He has taken note of Malakittens' paranoia when it comes to me, stemming from a previous game and thought he could use it to his advantage. and as evident from his last explanation, he also seems to think that this switch will make him look like paranoid-town (like the rest of us), earning him townpoints.
I should clarify this bit further, because the argument he's using against me as supposedly crucial (I take into the account the possibility of MAlakittens being aninja) will especially sound true to Malakittens, who (I am now convinced) knowing herself not to be a ninja, will naturally feel inclined to see mastin's side of the story.

mastin's argument is not intellecutally valid. It's an appeal to Malakittens' emotions. He's trying to use town paranoia against us, but he did it so blatantly he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
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Post Post #761 (isolation #141) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:32 am

Post by Grimgroove »

There is absolutely no way to confirm jailkeepers as town through night actions.

mastin as a scum roleblocker could easily work around your plan by indeed blocking you, and killing someone else. You survive and have been blocked, just as in the case where mastin would be speaking the truth. How would you tell them apart?

Mhork on the other hand can be confirmed through nightactions. Even if only for that, mastin is a better lynch than Mhork.

Lynching bv now would be silly. A policy lynch at this stage is no good. And like you said, nobody really believes he's scum.

And look at the arguments pointing to mastin-scum. There's enough of them.
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Post Post #764 (isolation #142) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:18 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 743, Grimgroove wrote:
Ghostlin protects shos.
Mhork sends letter to shos or Ghostlin.
shos tracks Malakittens (is a given)
Malakittens does what she does to whoever she wants, but she needs to do it.
Grimgroove follows Mhork.
^
This.

I made one slight adjustment. Mhork shouldn't say who he will send the letter to, but he has to send it to one of both conftown: you or Ghostlin.
That way that plan has a lesser chance of being ruined in case scum blocks Ghostlin and kills you. There's a chance Ghostlin got the letter and can still confirm Mhork as town. So the scum has to think: maybe I should kill Ghostlin then, instead of blocking him? But then there's still the chance Mhork sent the letter to you after all.

It makes it a wee bit more difficult for scum. We have two conftown so we have to make use of them.

And now, yes, you should hammer mastin, because all this talk about a plan very probably isn't even necessary.
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Post Post #770 (isolation #143) » Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:47 am

Post by Grimgroove »

I pray this game is over.
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Post Post #779 (isolation #144) » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:06 am

Post by Grimgroove »

And his challenge to ME, the Great Grimgroove !!!

Good game everyone! Really enjoyed this one as well .I loved the set-up and mastin put up a great, great fight. A lot of scum would give up or would at least let demotivation shine through their posts after encountering the blow of having your mafia redirector lynched. I think the set-up was balanced, but the D1 lynch of the redirector was the worst thing that could happen to scum, and town made that happen.

I'd call it a well-deserved win, against a good scumteam. The sweetest kind of victories.

@scumQT: Thank you for all that scum-meta mastin. I'll be using it. :mrgreen:
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Post Post #785 (isolation #145) » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:37 pm

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 780, shos wrote:GG, I have to say that I think we are a formidable town pair, even if I'm scum.
:mrgreen: True that!

mastin, you were good in appearing town (very good), but you were bad at convincing others to mislynch anyone. Both when you pushed Mhork and me, you never managed to convince anyone we were scum.

You were on your way to a Mhork mislynch, but like the line you quoted in your qt coming from me sates:

""Also props to mastin. He makes no sense but it seems he was correct about all his reads. Reminiscent of an oracle, talking jibberish but truthful and full of wisdom at the core.""

you were talking jibberish and never convinced me through it. You did convince me to look into Mhork's ISO and make myself crazy, but if you had come up with that ISO pointing to the possibility of a funky-Mhork connection yourself, it might have gotten you further. As it was, I shortly convinced myself of it and called you wise for seeing what I had not seen earlier, but your case on him still was pretty bad.

Props to a game well-played, doubts were lingering until the very end, but town beat you fair and square.
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Post Post #794 (isolation #146) » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:01 am

Post by Grimgroove »

In post 786, Malakittens wrote:This was a good game. Sorry about being inactive D1 and Mastin you are right. Il never trust you 'gain :P
I hope, on the other hand, you'll finally be able to put behind you that paranoia lingering from that time we played in a scumteam together. That shit's gotta stop girl!
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