Micro 242: Les Miserables Mafia (Game Over)

[elleheathen]

VOTE: Grimgroove

I am agog! I am aghast! Do you think we've caught scum so fast?

[elleheathen]

Elite, you say? Elite, may be. But Thenardier is a scum to me.

VOTE: Mhork

Srs.

[elleheathen]

They never even 'Oooh'ed or 'Ahhh'ed.

[elleheathen]

^
Some wine and say what's going on?

Also, what's town about it?

[elleheathen]

Idk. I think scum would

absolutely

label it an L-1 because it's otherwise just screaming to be called out for it - and I don't see them wanting that kind of attention.

What do you think about it being a page 1 L:1?

[elleheathen]

Not you - but cheers to that!

UNVOTE:

Because applesauce - and that wasn't a Thenardier scum slip, right?

[elleheathen]

But is it at all strange for someone to change his views - and his vote - when criticized for a previous vote?

IMO, yes, it is strange.
I think it's more of a scum trait to change the way you normally do things just to appease/mimic others.

Elle

I'm sorry I didn't understand the wine reference until just now when it clicked

do you have scum games I can look at? I haven't seen you as scum yet.

Ahaha, I forgive you. Here, my only scumgame.

Also can you do that thing where you're really, really protown? I've seen you do it a lot and it's awesome. Who are your scum reads?

But that has a tendency to get me really, really, NK'ed on N1. I'm sure obvtown me will likely rear her deathwish head soon enough, regardless. Busy weekends, ftl.

Fttb, I agree with your Mae read and am trying to sort funky/shos. But I'll get back to you on this with a full reads/reasons list soon.

@elle: Why did you unvote, exactly? What does applesauce have to do with things? ._.

A bit of an inside joke (apologies for confusion) but applesauce was a reference to a game we just won because I town-read Mhork correctly during a lylo. The unvote is due to him feeling very similarly to how he started that game and his reaction (or lack thereof) to being run up seemed fine.

Plus, I came into this thinking (very wrongly, lol) that I'd be able to sing/quote my way through this using only lines from my flavor char so seeing Thenardier was like

What do you think about it?
What's your read on Mhork? And on funky?

[elleheathen]

what are you guys talking about?
suppose a wagon rises in D1, which, well, happens, obviously. even further suppose that an L-1 wagon rises on the first page(!) which happens quite a lot too(for example, in my last game ended). suppose the one who put the L-1 vote did not say it was L-1. and some newbguy can't count and lolhammers by mistake.

anything good for town? anything bad for scum? day cut short, mislynch, there's no wifom here, no suspects, nothing.putting a wagon on L-1 without saying so is entirely pro scum, unless there's a guy like me who would pressure that point precisely. without being prodded to, specifying that it is L-1 by italics and undeline and in a different line, THAT, sir, is a town member.

While I agree that someone putting someone at L:1 without saying so is scummy - I don't think the reverse is true in that instance - I 'stress' L:1 regardless of alignment - so that, to me, is null.

For arguments sake, I could just as easily see what he did as a scum move to put an L:1 at the bottom of a page while 'stressing' it so people didn't come back to him with 'You didn't make it clear it was only a vote from a lynch!' and sit back and hope that some non-reading derp comes in to hammer so you can blame it on them.

It wasn't a question about whether

not

stating L:1 was scummy, it was about stating L:1 is obvtown. The fact that you're saying they're the same and trying to use reverse logic doesn't give me good feels, though.

alright so since I can't see this discussion leading us anywhere good. what would you do if a cop had claimed a guilty on you?

First, to answer the question, lynch all liars.

Second,

VOTE: shos

Why wouldn't a discussion on you lead us anywhere good? Why is it better to discuss setup speculation and/or things that are irrelevant to the game at the moment (as we don't know wth we have) than it is to talk about things or people actually in the thread?

Also, since you didn't answer before, who was your townread again?

THIS IS L-1!

^--- Look! Stressed!

[elleheathen]

Also if it is relevant, I calling people for l-1s gamestart all the time, so you're more than welcome to view my meta.

You have like 5k posts.
If you wanna point me in the direction of one of your games where you are town and where you label someone during gamestart as another town based solely on stating an L-1 vote, then yes, it would help. Otherwise, irrelevant.

Also,

what did I need to think about? was there any question directed at me?

This wasn't addressed to me but:

alright so since I can't see this discussion leading us anywhere good. what would you do if a cop had claimed a guilty on you?

Why wouldn't a discussion on you lead us anywhere good? Why is it better to discuss setup speculation and/or things that are irrelevant to the game at the moment (as we don't know wth we have) than it is to talk about things or people actually in the thread?

I'll actually give you a bit of the benefit of the doubt here and say that I think your post in 90 is in regards to this, here:

@elle: obviously when the subject is up in discussion that is null. But when he did that, it wasn't, and claiming that putting a vote in the buttom of a page is scummy is idiotic.

Except that it doesn't answer the questions - but I'm having a hard time understanding anything you said in that post - or why you're talking about someone else when I'm asking about

you

.

Do you understand that me calling someone Town now leads to my lynch? Do you understand how scum-led this wagon is? I can understand a vote on someone building a faulty case, someone who tries to look like he is scumhunting, but calling a Town read page 2? Niet.

Do you understand that it wasn't you calling someone town that is leading to you being run up (not lynched) but that you called someone town because he stated L-1, which is null at best? It looks like a throw away vote, especially because you couldn't even remember who it was that you had labelled as town?

And then instead of answering the two times you were asked who that townread was, you later vote your townread and then 'oh, that was my townread! lol'.

Eugh. I'm conflicted on the last because I could see town derping that out somehow but I can see scum avoidance in it, too.

[elleheathen]

Mhork - Town

Let the wine of friendship never run dry.

Mostly an extension of my previous read. I'm not sure how much I trust it but it's gut and I'm going to go with it for now. His posting after the fact seems fine and most his reads line up with what I'm thinking.

What're your thoughts on Kaze?

Grimgroove - Leaning Town

It's based on a singular post - so it's pretty tentative atm but that entry post gave me super town vibes. Like/agree with most of the content there and just looking forward to more. (And I'll try to remember to italicize my song/quotes/references to make it more obvious. <3)

What do you make of shos recent explanation on his wording over the 'if i get lyched before or after etc' issue?

Malakittyyyy - Null

Still waiting on this 'interesting conversation in a bit' to be had between Mala/funky. Agree with the back pedaling bit and while her post in 83 addressing the townread from funky makes me

think

town... Idk, skeptical.

Mala, what's your take on so far? Got any reads on anyone besides funky?
What do you make of Mae?

PS - Happy Birthday! /confetti

Maemuki - Leaning Scum

61 seems fine until 79 and 99. It's the 'whatever' comment in 61 that bugs me because it dismisses they're own question and it seems like they don't care about the response they're asking about - but then they care again enough later to pursue it.

reads seems to stop - as if to say it is over though they know it has scarcely begun.

Like to hear their response to Mhork's question - along with some reads.

Also, does anyone else besides Grimgroove not know anything about Les Mis?

[elleheathen]

-hand raise too-

@elle: in 84 you guys were talking about the strangeness of the vote by mhork on me. I don't find that vote strange at the moment, I simply believe it was a vote for pressure at the time; iirc, that was a vote with nothing said about it, ad immediately after another vote. that's what I do when I vote for pressure, so yeah.

Do you understand that it wasn't you calling someone town that is leading to you being run up (not lynched) but that you called someone town because he stated L-1, which is null at best? It looks like a throw away vote, especially because you couldn't even remember who it was that you had labelled as town?

And then instead of answering the two times you were asked who that townread was, you later vote your townread and then 'oh, that was my townread! lol'.

yes, I understand, and I think it's idiotic. as I've said, I'd understand if you'd go after someone who has a SCUMREAD based on what you think is wrong, but a TOWN read? how is that beneficial to scum; how is that hurting town; what does it lay base for in the future? this is entirely negligible. you said that it looks like a throwaway vote - well yes, I'd understand if it was a throwaway vote, but it WAS NOT A VOTE. everything you say is completely legit if that was a SCUMREAD. but it's not, and this changes things entirely.

The fact that I didn't remember who it was was mainly because it was like page 1, lol. It's not like I needed to revise and provide a list of scumreads and townreads, it's not like I was in the middle of some kind of investigation that I need to remember everything I ever thought and ISO myself. it was fucking page 2.

@119: not commenting on the townreads, agree with the null and leaning scum. but how comes you don't have a read on me yet? kinda lolled.

Sorry - meant a throw away

read.

Scum throw out reads like that to either look town or to give their partners some towncred on their posting. The fact that it was a read on stating an L-1 was what I found questionable - because obviously, I disagree with that and find it null, at best.

You justify it with your own reasoning which made me think of you as more town but you do so in such a way as to reference an L-1 made

without

stating it, which as I explain, isn't the same thing, the avoidance of which makes me think scum.

You say it was 'fucking page 2' but from you not remembering who you thought was town when we were only on 'fucking page 2' was what added to me thinking that it was indeed a throw away read. But your explanation over it in the above quoted post seems about as careless as the rest of your posting, and makes me think town again.

As you can see, and as I stated in my previous post to you - I'm conflicted.

This

is why I don't have a solid read on you yet - because I'm in the process of sorting you. My vote on you says that I think you're scummy - but since I can see some of this coming from town that I want more to go on than the L-1 issue, despite the fact that you said I'd find that you do this in 99% of your games and I couldn't see it in one. (I checked your other recent game that I won't mention because rules and 226, 1465, 1462, and 1432 - nothing.)

Part of me says 'Lynch all liars' but there's another part that can't pinpoint exactly

why

- but this doesn't feel right. Hence, questioning and watching which votes go where, how you and others respond, etc.

What are your reads so far? Can you give us a reads list of who you have as towniest to scummiest when you get a chance? I'd like to see where your head is at.

[elleheathen]

I've got some more reads inc (bv, kaze and funky, i think) but it might be tomorrow.

One day moooooore.

Also,

Maybe we're twins seperated at birth, who knows

lollll

[elleheathen]

Ill link you to csses like this at home.
Where have I lied?

you said I'd find that you do this in 99% of your games and I couldn't see it in one. (I checked your other recent game that I won't mention because rules and 226, 1465, 1462, and 1432 - nothing.)

Admittedly though, I stopped at 5. But if you can link me one, it'd suffice.

DONT even remember the names of other lol.

Well... at least you're consistent...

[elleheathen]

And there are storms we cannot weatherrrrr.

Cya Kaze - GL.

[elleheathen]

It can't be this easy... right? lol
I need to go check some of their other games.

[elleheathen]

^

welcome mastin, i think? lol

[elleheathen]

That's how I feel, Elle.

I know I must be, like, completely wrong somewhere along this.

Ikr, that post feels like it'd be scum suicide - and idk, let's see.

VOTE: Maemuki

2) Most of my posts were during the RVS period.

...That would depend on when you think RVS actually ended - as my vote in 8 is serious. And all of your replies are after that.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but some people (I'm looking at you, shos, funky, since you're the other people who are under the most suspicion) are keeping me as a second backup lynch while not actually voting me.

Why is the fact that they're the two 'under the most suspicion' relevant to them keeping you as a lynch candidate?

This seems like you're just throwing that out there on them

because

they have the most suspicion on them and are trying to increase that. Why does only theirs look like a 'backup lynch' for you when three others have scumreads on you and were not voting you?

What do you think about shos and funky voting each other then?

Also, I disagree almost 100% with Grimgroove's reads.

What are

your

reads and reasons? Who do you think is town/scum?

I think that Ellie and Mhork sound... close, so to speak. I don't know if they've played a lot, or if this is just coincidence, but their interactions sound off.

So do you think close = scum and that we walked into this as scum partners drawing a direct line to the other? Or do you think one of us is scum and is using our familiarity (because the fact that we just got out of a game together has already been discussed in thread) with the other to buddy a town? What do you make of the closeness/interactions?

[elleheathen]

Also if it is relevant, I calling people for l-1s gamestart all the time, so you're more than welcome to view my meta.

You have like 5k posts.
If you wanna point me in the direction of one of your games where you are town and where you label someone during gamestart as another town based solely on stating an L-1 vote, then yes, it would help. Otherwise, irrelevant.

well so here's a game in which I pushed this, and greycat even said that I've done this as town, so that shortens my search x)

You realize I asked you for a game in which you do this as town and you link me a game in which you do it as scum?

...

.....

idek.......

[elleheathen]

My opinion seems not to be shared, so this is long overdue.

UNVOTE: shos

I would vote Mae if not L-1. More coming after I'm done with classes for the day.

Why does it matter if your opinion is shared or not - if you actually believe in your opinion?

[elleheathen]

well it's a good time to VOTE: Maemuki. This is an L-1 vote, lawl, had to say it

Why is it a 'good time'?
What do you think of Mae and are you voting them solely on the 'active lurking' that you point out?

[elleheathen]

Did I miss who Mae's claiming - because that just looks

flavorful

as opposed to a

flavor claim

.

Yeah but flavor claim doesn't prove alignment. It's not really worth unvoting for.

You don't think our flavor chars will represent good/bad from Les Mis? - Do you think it's random?

I have a hard time believing that.

And for those that don't think it matters, what do you think of a mass flavor name claim at some point?

[elleheathen]

@mod - Going away for the weekend - V/LA until Sunday night

Acknowledged

[elleheathen]

More wine!

Back. Reading through and should have a catchup post tonight. <3

[elleheathen]

Most games can't be broken by a flavor claim and I don't think this one would be any different.

²

Not so much about breaking the game - but more about the fact that I have the ability to

prove

my flavor name - which was why I found it hard to believe that there wasn't at least

something

in the flavor to idk, justify that?

But maybe the wagon says Funky, idk /:

How does that work?

^Second.
And pretty much agree with everything stated in Grim's post 252.
Twins, indeed. Took all the 'wtf's' right out of my brain.

Right, so Mala, I'm really liking what Mae's selling

Srs? So you like posting of incorrect information presented as facts and blatant misreps - because that's all Mae has posted. And yet somehow that 'screams town' to you - because of

tone

?

What do you think about my questions to Mae in 172, since a lot of your reasoning for thinking they are town is answered in that post for why the exact same posts make me think scum.

Do you think ignoring viable questions is somehow towny, too?

[elleheathen]

More wine!

You know you've been playing mafia for too long when you can't hear this statement without adding "in front of me!".

Right, so Mala, I'm really liking what Mae's selling

Srs? So you like posting of incorrect information presented as facts and blatant misreps - because that's all Mae has posted. And yet somehow that 'screams town' to you - because of

tone

?

Ironically enough, this itself is a 'misrep', because you're saying I think Mae's town for nothing more than tone. There's a whole hell of a lot more than that, but to humor you, even IF there was JUST the tone...yes, that'd be enough.

Touche - though technically, it's not really a misrep considering I'm asking you a

question

based on what I think of Mae's craptastic posting - but I get your point as the way I phrased it is more accusatory than questioning. It's still a valid point because I don't understand at all where you're coming from with this - I feel like Mae is being ridic scummy yet because they seem carefree in their gameplay, they're getting a pass.

What do you think about my questions to Mae in 172, since a lot of your reasoning for thinking they are town is answered in that post for why the exact same posts make me think scum.

Quite frankly, I ignored them. Don't even know what you asked; wasn't paying attention to them.

HURT MY FEELS D:

What "move"? There is no "move"...
She didn't draw attention on herself. Other people PUT attention on her, and with her latest godawful post she lazily tried to squirm her way out of that attention field.

This is more than Mae just not participating a lot. She tried to give off the air of participation when pulling the "Mhork is sheeping"-thing, and then giving some half-assed reads on everyone in her last post. Of course it's coming from scum, there's no reason at all not to think so. Lack of a move is a move itself. The lack of a move drew attention to her. And she's not squirming her way out of the attention field. She's casually brushing it off. And she's not trying to give off the air of participation. She's half-assing participation for sure, but I see no scum objective in doing so.

Of course it's not going to be scum. Yeah, there's reason to think it would be so, but it's never going to happen in practice. Seriously. I've been in 130+ games by now. In all my time...I seriously, legitimately, do not think I've ever seen a single case of a scum player doing what Mae is doing.

In this case, I advise you to look at Mae's history - as they've done this as cult, vig, and scum. This is just how they post - and in a good majority of their games, they get replaced for it. At best, it's a null tell because this is their style regardless of alignment.

Also.
I remember leaving for the weekend with a strong-gut scumread on bv - just ISO'ed and now have no idea why...

[elleheathen]

You look as if you've seen a Ghost...

lin

So on the topic of drinks. As much as I'd love to I have a headache running on three days.
Drinks will make it worse

Drink with me... to ...headaches... gone by?

Mostly waiting on this incoming content from the replacement.

[elleheathen]

Only read the claim up to this point so it may go back when done reading the rest but

UNVOTE:

ftm.

[elleheathen]

First thing.

Mae's 'jump off the Paris sewer' reference makes me think there might actually be some validity here. If only because I figured if it

was

a reference, it was either one for Valjean or Marius. Well, that and fakeclaiming Valjean would be prettttty ballsy out the gate.

Then again, shos already claimed to be town with one of (he thought) the villains. So fiik.

But it's one of those things that if it is a legit claim, it's one that scum is either forced to keep alive due to suspicion that will rise if he doesn't die - but at the same time doesn't benefit them because ahaha bodyguard.

Hmm.

The difference between Mhork and the rest of the Unholy Axis of Voting is that Mhork has pushed this to the point of opportunism. Elle, I could buy as town because Mhork needs a read to crib off of, and so GG. I'm still not buying the whole 'it's a coincidence' bullshit that one third of town has a voting bloc; I'm thinking one, maybe two of them are scum, and I find the interactions between Elle and Mhork...soft in the gut, but you guys want to flip me? Fine. The role's created to be disposable. But if you don't fucking look at who's on my wagon and the close, almost bizarre association that Elle and Mhork have set up for themselves DAY FUCKING ONE---this loss of this game I wipe my hands on.

Oh look, a question I posed to Mae that I can still direct to their replacement!

So do you think close = scum and that we walked into this as scum partners drawing a direct line to the other? Or do you think one of us is scum and is using our familiarity (because the fact that we just got out of a game together has already been discussed in thread) with the other to buddy a town? What do you make of the closeness/interactions?

Also, why do you find Mhork and I's closeness more suspicious than Grim and I's twining?

I can't defend Mae--her play is admittedly pretty fucking dreadful--except to say the lack of engagement reads to me in a Town aspect as a player with a protection role that doesn't want to be outed. That said, that's almost newbie town and Mae's been around since 2009, so she might not be...good at this to begin with.

^This. This is what has me leaning more towards town on you than anything else atm. The fact that admit that you 'can't defend Mae' - which is what I found so off about mastin's approach with OMGSHE'SSOTOWN in the face of her craptastic play and misreps. I still don't get it - I still don't understand it and either he's just

that good

or he

knows

that she would have flipped town and was accumulating alllll the white knighting town points ever as scum. But then he posted that wall of reasons for why he saw her as OMGSOTOWN and though I

completely

disagree with it, it seemed somehow less like scum and more like stubborn town.

Oh. Whoops. /rant

Anyway, I'm good with that unvote.

Elle, bv or funky?

Orlyyyyy?

[elleheathen]

That was a question directed at you. >.>

Elle, (should we lynch) bv or funky?

Oh - LOL.
Not sure yet - I'm re-reading this whole shpeel, though should have something by tonight considering the time crunch.

[elleheathen]

Also, why do you find Mhork and I's closeness more suspicious than Grim and I's twining?

Because out of the three of you I like Mhork better for scum, and he seems closer to you than Grim.

I think you were expecting a longer, more higher level, 'I shit gold bricks as town' answer, but that's all I have, cupcake. Strong interaction with a scum read is an entirely different set of bananas to someone I have generally good feels about because town dry hump--I mean buddy each other too.

Assez bon pour moi, 24601.

[elleheathen]

Not sure yet - I'm re-reading this whole shpeel, though should have something by tonight considering the time crunch.

I'll get back to this in the am - just finished the read through but allergy headache is kicking my ass - so bed.

[elleheathen]

So. I hate piling on excuses but turns out allergy headache wasn't allergy headache but the flu - and I'm about to go die in bed.
But before I do: (This is about to get ridiculously short-formed (esp. if you're familiar with how prone to walls I am and know that this would normally be one covered up by spoilers under each name with references and quotes and jazz) - but if you want expansions on anything in particular for when I get back up, lemme know.)

Mala

- Town, besides what's already been stated - I gave Mala a behind-the-scenes reach out and the fact that Mala addressed it before I asked about it gives me good feels.

Mhork

- Town, still town and I think the fact that we're both very tentative on that read of each other is what's really doing it for me. To expand, I think we're both sitting here very much in a 'you're town

for now

' mindset because the familiarity is like 'I can read you better over long-term but this short-term feels like town-you'. If that makes sense - if not, it's the drugs. lol

Grim

- Leaning Town, but his last post wall with the reads switcheroo gives me bad vibes. And I really hate admitting this because MYFIRSTOWNBLOCK! D: Ruined twin. Redeem, plz.

Ghostlin

- I have as Null, Leaning Town. I think he'd be more town if it wasn't for my leftover scumspicion of Mae - to which the rest of my explanation for this is already out there - and not something I want to see pursued due to the bodyguard claim.

Shos

- I still flip flop over. I think a lot of it has to do with not getting half the crap he says in his posts and the contradictions therein. He sucks balls at explaining himself - and I can't tell if it's a situation where, because of that, he just makes himself look scummy or if he is, actually, scum. But I'd rather give him the 'pass for today' deal and see what tomorrow brings. Ps - fix your keyboard plzplz. lol

Scum is in funky, BV, or mastin.

Mastin

- I've already explained my confliction over. The arrogance about 'being that good' rings true with everything else he's saying - but the defense of Mae when even their own replacement didn't get it just... it's sticking with me. The fact that even when asked, he ignored my questioning line on Mae to continue his white knighting instead of addressing why he thought I was wrong made me think scum. But Mala's vouching for him makes me uneasy.

He's the one I'd be running up right now if my brain wasn't like HAHAHANO. But it is - and the effort that'd take with three days to go - non-existent atm because bed. Though, I'd be eternally grateful if one of you (Mala or Mastin) would link me to these games where you correctly pinged him as one alignment or the other?

Because

At the end of the day you're the one who began it

bv103

- Yep, I'm sticking with your numbers. Idk, I said this a few posts ago but when I iso'ed him, he looked town despite me having a huge scum-feel on him. Doing the read through last night gave me that scum feel again. The reason he made it here is because I don't

have

a solid read on him. He hasn't really voted with any conviction on anything, hasn't really given much of an opinion on things, hasn't given any reads.
This is where normally one of my huge walls would come in to explain all this but the short of it is - pretty much everything post 68 and on gives me bad feels.

Especially how in a lot of those posts afterwards, he doesn't vote but is trying to get other people's reasoning for how they're voting as if coasting they're reads instead of giving or following his own.

Funky

- Besides what's already been stated with the backpedaling and all that - his 216 unvote is probably what gives me the worst vibes - and that weird hammer bit on Mae - and not unvoting despite the claim - and there's probably more.
It's the humble part of him that makes me question it though - because he fully admits the stuff he does and explains, like his response in 148.

Mala's unvote actually makes me really sad. Because I'd love at least a flavor name claim out of funky - and I'm tempted to put my vote there to get it because he's in the 'could def be scum category' and I feel like I need

something

more to justify his scummery, without unveiling another role.

The only reason I'm not voting this is because idk when the heck I'll be awake again - and I want to be here for this but may change when I

do

get back up, depending.

And I'm currently lol'ing - because this is way longer than I expected it to be and yet still isn't close to what I would have walled if I wasn't medded up and braindrained. So, yay for your reading eyes? lol

[elleheathen]

YAY TOWN. <3

Bahaha, called it.

Lol reading scum qt=epicness.

wut.where?