Any tips about balancing a setup?

[Katsuki]

Setup balance is mostly common sense.

For example, if you are running a mini 13p, give town a doc, a vig and a cop, and give scum a single godfather, then it's probably not balanced (Too much town power, can for example add in additional scum roleblocker to offset, or remove/limit town roles.).
Conversely, if you keep the above townroles the same, but give scum a roleblocker, a godfather and a rolecop, it's probably too strong for the scum (in this case, either balance positively for town, or negatively for scum).

[Katsuki]

The point was more so common sense. I typed the first 3 roles that came to me (probably also the 3 most common).

If you change that to a one-shot vig, pretty much you get what most mini normals consisted of when I played them (2 of godfather/rolecop/roleblocker vs a town like that). Balance 3 years might be different than what it is now.

p.s. Most people hate follow the cop. From a personal standpoint, cop is a terribly overpowered role unless there are a ton of roles to interfere with it (eg. lots of methods for false negatives/positives).

[Katsuki]

@Tamuz:Except it's not.

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well, but it's not hard to realize when one side is far more power loaded than the other.

Which reminds me that swinginess is something to always keep in mind.

[Katsuki]

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well

Not even close to explaining it.

I thought it was a clean example regarding not under or over powering one side. (eg. lets throw cop watcher doc bulletproof + 6 townies vs 3 mafia goons trololol, or even 10:3 mountaineous).

Though I only used scum variation and not town but the example itself was straight forward.

[Katsuki]

I dunno, game balance seems pretty much common sense to me. I'm probably not explaining it real well, but it's not hard to realize when one side is far more power loaded than the other.

Again, you're mixing up "coming sense" and "gut reaction from having designed a lot of setups/played a lot of games."

Imagine someone who has never played, or even heard of, mafia. You then explain to them the rules of the game and tell them to make a setup.

Yeah, "common sense" my ass.

Why the fuck would they be making a setup then. If you're going to throw out the basic assumptions of those who are modding/designing, then you mind as well say just put in whatever you want.

Considering that's not what this thread is about I have no idea why you're even bothering to type this.

[Katsuki]

I used the most exaggerated example possible to make the point that what you call "common sense" is something that comes from having experience.

Which someone designing a setup for the first time lacks.

Someone designing a setup for the first time does not lack basic knowledge of the game for which they're creating a setup for.

Certain assumptions of basic competence is applied. It's pointless and a waste of time to consider how would we teach say a "mentally challenged" person with 0 game knowledge how to mod, because as said, that's not what this thread is about nor what OP asked for.

[Katsuki]

Hard to believe you play a game that revolves around making arguments given data with that 'tude :S

:3

P-EDIT: I'll explain more on what you just said at a later point.

[Katsuki]

I will counter that with, if you don't have at least some understanding of balance, how do you crack the game come massclaim? How do you figure out how plausible each role is in a setup?
The best example is scum fakeclaiming and fakeclaiming actions. There are times when roleclaims make 0 sense in a setup, and you pick up on that even if you have never modded before. Basic game knowledge will naturally find its way into your setup designing.

As for reviewers, you should always have them. There are some things you may not realize with role interactions that you had not originally thought of when creating the setup.

[Katsuki]

I for one have far more game experience than you and I have no idea how to make a game or any of this common sense in creating a balanced set-up. Your argument is shit and just ends up being you pumping up your ego, putting down people looking for help and no actual constructive information.

If anything, I was trying to help (which is currently being debated by you guys) and you guys felt the need to take this thread on a whole other tangent.

As for no sense of balance, I pray I never get caught as town with town!you in a late-game scenario.

[Katsuki]

We are and have been saying appealing to 'common sense' is not helpful. You essentially are saying 'people who know how to balance intrinsically should know what to do'. That's cool and a truism, but it doesn't help anyone learn.

Break it down to stupidsense.
If you can't break down your instinctual thought processes, you definitely do not understand them well enough to help we idiots learn how to balance on our own.

I did go back and amend stuff, but in all honesty, all you and Bro really did was come in and be all snarky about things.

Which reminds me, this is a tips thread. Similarly to pretty much anything you do, "Trusting your instincts" is a part of setup design. You say you haven't made a game, so really I don't even know why you're talking in the first place.
Saying my explanations aren't clear is one thing (which I would accept, and have admitted) , going on on a tangent dismissing something that you apparently have little or no knowledge is unnecessary.

So I will say this kindly as it's really not beneficial to be spamming this thread with our petty arguments in the first place, and as a nice fellow I know would say, get aids and die.