Marketplace Mafia III - Game Over

[Garuda]

HI HELLO THIS IS YOUR CAPTAIN EMPIRE SPEAKING. NACHO AND I TALKED A LOT ABOUT STRATEGY AND I WORKED RLY HARD ON THIS POST PLEASE READ EVERY WORD OF IT AND TELL ME YOUR THOUGHTS.

1) Given that Magua linked a Mafia Left Hand role PM from the last game, I think it’s pretty safe to assume we’re dealing with another multiball situation. The last game had 20 players and two scum teams of 3 slots each – there’s only one additional slot here so it’s likely that it’s still 3/3 here (well there might be some bullshit like a 3rd party from the first game but fuck SKs and fuck that noise for now).

2) Negative utility items (such as investigation immunity, deadline, etc) should be claimed immediately if won by town (and it’s not impossible to outright win one, the N0 Night Kill went for only $31 last game for example). Failure to do so will be considered to have been won by scum. I don't want any dumb lolgambits on this front (this means you, Cabd). This is non-negotiable. If you’re town and do something stupid on this front, my hatred of you will follow you like a shroud for the rest of your days.

3) The last game was won by forming a public town bloc and having suspicious people / non-townreads transfer their money over to the townies. Magua mentioned after the last game and IIRC in the dead QT that he was going to make sure this did not happen in the next installment. The signups thread also talks about making transferring less efficient. I combed the Rules with a comb and noticed something in the Mafia role PM – take a look at where it says “Wire Fraud” under the section called “Dirty Tricks”. The mafia have an ability where they must choose a transferor and a transferee. I’m guessing that this is the mechanic Magua was referring to and that this probably means the mafia have some way of fucking with publicly announced transfers of money. I’m still trying to figure out some way around this as I think this game has similar potential to be broken. One of the ideas I’ve been kicking around is to have a publicly announced town bloc but without announcing any transferors (in other words, the mafia won’t get to know where the money comes from). It’s not foolproof but at least it leaves mafia guessing. We could also do this the old fashioned way (and I’m guessing this is the way Magua wants us to do it if at all) by not having any announced town bloc and just privately transferring money to townreads. Open to suggestions here.

4) The items auctioned last night were incredibly shitty and I think a large part of the problem there was that the town overall did not put much towards advertising good PRs. Nacho and I had a similar thought process here – I told him that given the fact that the mafia started with more money than town last game, mafia would probably still have the starting money advantage here and we would have to put more towards actually winning things than advertising it. I even told him that we’d just let the other townies do the advertising for us. By the looks of things, this line of thinking appears to have been common among everyone, leading to a large diffusion of responsibility which into led to the shit N0 auctions. I’m asking the rest of you guys here to actually set aside some money for advertising good shit like BP, doctor, and commuter.

Anyway, now to read the thread.

[Garuda]

Stopping my read through for a moment to answer this:

Can anyone that played the first two rounds tell me if scum shared a qt for money actions or used seperate ones? If it's the former, bald is scum.

If I'm remembering it right, no. Magua provides private QTs to individual slots to sort out night actions and that's it. IIRC, the scum teams did not share a QT for money actions but presumably they'd be discussing it amongst themselves anyway. If you're talking about whether both scum teams shared a QT for money actions in the last game, then no as that would reveal the teams to each other and I definitely remember them not knowing each other (I only remember this because MoI unironically read my slot as opposite scum in the last game lmao).

[Garuda]

Vote: Voidedmafia

[Garuda]

(I'm not done yet but this dude already needs to die a swift, efficient, hot death.)

[Garuda]

I'm not Nacho but I'm better than him anyway so my vote is perfectly sheepable.

(Also, hi Voided, sorry you're scum in this game.)

[Garuda]

But...But...That's not true!

Well, then, Mr. Mafia, I am confused. It seems like your posts so far (I'm up to #156) have such a low signal:noise ratio and your reaction to baldeagle's case on Minaday looks like you're scumhunting the other team as opposed to scumhunting generally. Now I'm not really sure what to think ;_;

[Garuda]

scumhunting the other team

I may be mistaken but I thought left and right are still working together they just don't know who each other are? Am I wrong here?

Eh, I think it's more complicated than you're suggesting. MoI was pushing a scumread on our slot in the last Marketplace game. I remember reading both the Mafia and the Dead QTs last game and he did in fact genuinely scumread our slot as opposite scum. He pushed us in thread and I'm thinking he chose to because he was looking for something genuine to talk about as opposed to being forced to generate fake content, if that makes any sense (multiball is weird).

[Garuda]

Can you please comment on my idea that neighborizer should claim because I know you have to have read to that part especially since it was like the first post. Thanks.

I have an idea cooking up that's kind of a compromise. I don't know if it's any good though.

My thought process is this: I obviously see the dangers of scum winning the power but it could also be immensely powerful for town (doubly so given the number of hydras here) and I don't want the Neighborizer instantly claiming if town and then dying immediately. But what about the slot that gets Neighborized claiming on D2? The potential Neighborizer / Cop combo is ineffective if both are used N1. If someone gets Neighborized N1, then I think it's more likely that the slot with that power is town.

I don't know this all sounded decent in my head. What do you think?

[Garuda]

Fully caught up. I was thinking of writing one of my trademark mastubatory reads list walls that no one aside from boring nerds like Tammy will read but I don't have the mental stamina to do that right now. So instead you'll get a boring town list with no explanations. Might do a wall later after Nacho and I have touched base on reads and we get some consolidation going.

TOWN:
1baldeagle1
Pyrotechnics
Lost Butterfly
---
zMuffinMan
upside down - need Nacho's input here, though, since I don't trust myself to read N

[Garuda]

3) The last game was won by forming a public town bloc and having suspicious people / non-townreads transfer their money over to the townies. Magua mentioned after the last game and IIRC in the dead QT that he was going to make sure this did not happen in the next installment. The signups thread also talks about making transferring less efficient. I combed the Rules with a comb and noticed something in the Mafia role PM – take a look at where it says “Wire Fraud” under the section called “Dirty Tricks”. The mafia have an ability where they must choose a transferor and a transferee. I’m guessing that this is the mechanic Magua was referring to and that this probably means the mafia have some way of fucking with publicly announced transfers of money. I’m still trying to figure out some way around this as I think this game has similar potential to be broken. One of the ideas I’ve been kicking around is to have a publicly announced town bloc but without announcing any transferors (in other words, the mafia won’t get to know where the money comes from). It’s not foolproof but at least it leaves mafia guessing. We could also do this the old fashioned way (and I’m guessing this is the way Magua wants us to do it if at all) by not having any announced town bloc and just privately transferring money to townreads. Open to suggestions here.

^Tammy would like to see your response to this + any other suggestions you might have, thanks in advance.

[Garuda]

unbelievably hungover
AMURIKA

[Garuda]

voided is scum

I had the opposite reaction, actually.

Oh, sorry for not analyzing everyone's post in the first hour of the game.

Town!

Well, I assumed neighborizer wasn't popular, so we advertised it and went all-in on getting it. Sadly, 90 was not enough. Who would have thought Neighborizer so popular...

And I don't care if we be past it, VOTE: Harakiri on principle.

This was awkward. Why didn't you just vote for yourself in your first post?

i'm not happy w/morph yet.
i'm not scumreading them either, i think.

Vote: Lord Mhrok

[Garuda]

i'll never be happy with cabd*

[Garuda]

Heh. I'm comforted to know precisely what his win condition is.

what do you think of mork?
i think it's a much better wagon than your voided thing

[Garuda]

Hmmm. I quite liked that, morky!

[Garuda]

I'm also feeling a bit better.

[Garuda]

Cabd, give me your prohawk read. He seems pretty town to me!

[Garuda]

What the hell.

So, the game is already 19 pages long, and I only have three days to read it?

Hmmmm.

9 pages already, guys go fuck your selves seriously. ill see you day 2 thanks.

Hmmmmmm.

[Garuda]

Instead I get to sit here watching as morph breaks the streak of fucking towns up.

I'm not quite so sure that this is gonna happen

We lost the bid for neighborizer. I submit that whoever won it needs to claim it so that we can evaluate them. Also, I don't see neighborizer in the abilities not yet auctioned, so I *think* from what I've read it won't show up again, but if it does or can be advertised it's something that we shouldn't do.

We also lost the bid for neighborizer.

We got Investigation Immune! I can't believe it was so cheap. We even bid $80 on it to keep it out of scum's hands.

Why didn't you go for Neighborizer?

We only started with $100. All of those items went for over $100.

Ah, scum gets more money? Lame.

Last game scum could pool their money for bids, so yeah.

So basically, anyone else that did win something aren't scum?

Like Butterfly's post.

This seems like an insanely crazy assumption, but one of those crazy town assumptions as opposed to a crazy scum assumption.

Oh wow that's actually a really good point. Pyro just jumped up, like, three town notches for me.

That wasn't that good of a point at all?

Mina you guys left or right scum?

I liked Molla being aggressive with Mina early.

I largely adverted EV for myself. Had thought of the possibility for better people than me to get it, but largely for myself (and to make sure scum didn't advert or get it later).

Why?

is that a case or just a quote of every post they've made?

The latter is called ISO.

Yes, I went through his posts and it was

mostly just claiming/questions/answering questions and trying to derail his own wagon.

What is it about a player doing the bolded that strikes you as scummy?

This doesn't seem like you're trying to figure him out; it seems like you're trying to help him play better.

I'd like to state for the record that this shit you do about calling yourself obvtown really does no good here, tammy.

It's part of who she is. Why do you want her to change who she is?

9 pages already, guys go fuck your selves seriously. ill see you day 2 thanks.

I could so happily flashwagon this.
9 pages isn't shit and certainly isn't an excuse to lurk for an entire day. I would probably be happier if he complained and then disappeared, honestly.

Nuh uh.

I bet we're 50/50 postwise.

And yet cabd is the only one that's doing anything.

16 pages in and I have no hopes of synergy like that happening here.

This seems pessimistic.

occasional pot shots at me, and declare at random that nacho is scum?

His potshots in this game have been better, at least.

Aside from the lynch what else should we try to accomplish? We've talked about sharing what we advertised on N0.

Go forward with that?

I liked this quite a bit, actually.

I bid $30 on Gravedigger 'cause I thought it sounded cool.

i liked this, felt honest.

Were you aware that your slot was voting Voidedmafia for most of the game before this?

Yep. Empire is harassing me about it now.
I think that him thinking you guys are town is good "scumhunting for one team" evidence. He hasn't brought up anything else that I liked, though.

Also, was your "I like this" in response to Mhork's claim? What are your current thoughts on Mhork?

It wasn't, it was to the bit of frustration directed at Sakura. My current thought on Mhork are that I think he is town and am not particularly interested in lynching him. His claim was pretty cool too, although it was odd someone advertised Medium but didn't actually put anything into it.

(EBWOP: I apparently can't read. I'm still confused by your post, though. You like it, but you still feel okay about voting him? Could you elaborate, please?)

Yeah, I'm looking for a place I want to vote.

We feel like he's kinda avoiding the thread atm.

How?

And we didn't like that his major contribution to the game last night was a pretty much gratuitous injection of morph-fery meta wifom.

I don't understand where this happened. He usually gets paranoid of you in one way or the other.

[Garuda]

Ah, scum gets more money? Lame.

^ This Isn't Nearly As Fake As V

We got Investigation Immune! I can't believe it was so cheap. We even bid $80 on it to keep it out of scum's hands.

VOTE: Lost Butterfly

This push felt great, actually. It was a push on something that actually was fake (always helps) and it seemed like a post prohawk was probably gonna attack.

This is why voided is scum btw.

On a scale of 1-10?

This is why voided is scum btw.

On a scale of 1-10?

I'll let ffery talk about her reasons but for me it's around a 6 or 7.

Sounds like you both are scum-reading him then. You not voting is making me worry.

His thought process is pretty clear here, and I think that Cabd holding onto his vote was pretty strange, especially after #145. You calling his attack on you "meta-wifom" seems a bit like discrediting him, which I find weird after our "people need to listen to prohawk more" discussion.

[Garuda]

I don't recall, but that doesn't make him scum.

I liked this.

The day will end when the day will end. We can start worrying when it gets to be near 10 days, if you're that worried about it. Rushing lynching just for the sake of money won't get us anywhere.

I liked this a lot.

Your misrepresentation of my post is cute, though. (unless it's not at me, but still.)

I liked this.

This kind of self-boasting never rubs me the right way.

I liked this.

A.) I'm busy doing more than just this game. Don't worry your little butts.

I liked this.

P-EDIT: Please. On that note, Cabd and Ffery, stop boosting each other in-thread.

I liked this.

[Garuda]

I'm reassured, mostly. Still need a response re: discrediting.

[Garuda]

I "play to my meta" because of my philosophy and approach to the game. Dismissing my tendencies and reasons to hold my vote and stew on my reads as "playing to my meta" appears to me to be pretty much intentionally focusing on the trees and ignoring the forest.

I can see why it bothered him.

[Garuda]

Why did you and Empire decide to claim to have lost it now?

I decided to without really deciding to.

I take it you read ahead by now?

Yep!

Also, I'm not sure what reaction he was expecting from me as either alignment (he should know I don't fold easily to stuff like that as scum). And, if anything, my frame of mind when I wrote the post he called nervous was completely relaxed; I knew everything would be cleared up once I claimed, and I'm used to drawing early wagons that dissipate quickly because of my wacky early-D1 scumhunting style.

Sometimes molla bullshit pushes people without an end result in mind.

[Garuda]

I "play to my meta" because of my philosophy and approach to the game. Dismissing my tendencies and reasons to hold my vote and stew on my reads as "playing to my meta" appears to me to be pretty much intentionally focusing on the trees and ignoring the forest.

I can see why it bothered him.

Then please explain so I can maybe dismiss the niggle.

It seemed strange that you two hadn't voted when it seemed pretty clear you synced up and both agreed that Voided was scum. I know you have a meta of holding onto your votes a bit, but Cabd doesn't, so not voting when you were synced up and ready to vote looks like playing to your meta.

[Garuda]

Molla wasn't as cool as I thought he was.

[Garuda]

But it does seem odd that he would attack you and Faraday in such a strange way as scum.

Pedit: I liked those posts.

[Garuda]

Yep.

[Garuda]

Vote: Klick

Sync achieved.

[Garuda]

I'm going to bed, but quick strategy thoughts:

1) What do people think about a mass-advertisement claim (which we use to find out how much money is on each ability), and then a coordinated advertisement campaign? I originally wanted just to claim

what

we'd bid on, so scum wouldn't know how to stop it, but maybe each town can pledge to pay a certain amount so that abilities aren't lost. The obvious caveat is that scum know by how much to outbid us, though. But something like, "These two players are responsible for advertising however much they want on these three abilities, these players for advertising these ones," etc. Is that more trouble than it's worth?

2)

*pokes Tammy with a stick*

To be honest, I'm sick of Neighbourizers right now. What's the obsession with them being so dangerous? I actually think it's a protown power in this set-up (although it becomes strongly proscum in really specific instances). You can transfer money with a town read, plan gambits, claim role information, buy abilities, etc. Meanwhile, if scum have neighbourizer, then there's nothing we can do about it to stop them communicating with the other team. It's not something like Investigation Immune that we can plan around. Garuda's plan of having the neighboree claim D2 is a good compromise, but that doesn't stop scum from just using the second shot to neighbourize a partner.

3) @Empire: I was thinking "This is a list of townies and this is a list of not-townies. These not-townies must send money to the townies every night, but don't claim which one. Afterwards, if the townies a certain not-townie claims to have sent money to keep winding up dead, not-townie starts looking fishy." I'm not sure if that's the same as your plan, or if the not-townies are a crucial new element.

The next couple of days will be mostly Mina posting, so expect shittier reads and fewer votes!

I think a mass advertising campaign is something to consider but we should get the more suspicious / non-townreads people to pledge the ad money? That way collective townreads can focus on actually winning abilities to ensure they go to town.
About my compromise plan: scum can't use the second shot to neighborize a partner really because they will not be able to communicate with the other team freely in that QT given the presence of possibly a third slot that's town (communication across scum teams is the whole reason scum want that thing in the first place). It's going to look mighty bad for the Neighborizer if the N1 neighboree dies N2 and then the QT is used in the hypothetical scum way.
You pretty much nailed it w.r.t. transferring so I don't have anything new to add there.

[Garuda]

Also, Zdenek is town (both because of the claims and how he seems more gleeful and spontaneous than his more robotic scum meta). Other town reads I'm getting are Pyro, Garuda (although this would be more solid if they'd done more scumhunting, the way they're approaching the strategizing feels like a town PoV), and baldeagle (although his last big post I didn't like as much). I have a weaker one on upside down based solely on tone and them seeming really relaxed. I'll get back to you on scum reads later.

Pretty much agree with all of this. Nacho and I talked a bit about upside down; he told me was going to try to read it based on Quilford's posting but that N looked good and I agreed.

[Garuda]

What the hell.

So, the game is already 19 pages long, and I only have three days to read it?

Is there anything in particular that I need to know?

Quoting this so everyone remembers how much of a scumpost this is.

[Garuda]

Oh, and since we're doing the whole advertising claim thing Nacho and I did set aside some for Neighborizer.

[Garuda]

p-edit: Garuda, didn't you claim to have advertised nothing before?

No, I only said it wasn't worth it to put a whole lot of money into advertising and to make sure we have enough to win it since that was more important.

[Garuda]

My only worry is I'm not sure how feasible it is to organize town blocs today given the short deadline and how many people have barely posted (and aren't the most reliable people to count on to submit money). I prefer just suggesting what abilities should be advertised.

Yeah, I think it might be better to organize town blocs on D2 given that we don't have much time to create them and they might not be as accurate as they should (and I dislike that a lot of people haven't even checked into the thread yet) in order to ensure success of the plan. So yeah, general advertising suggestions might be preferred for today but we definitely need to hash out town blocs when we get normal Day phases again.

[Garuda]

Why did you and Empire decide to claim to have lost it now?

Oh, believe me, I already chewed Nacho out about this over AIM when we were discussing reads earlier (he apparently hasn't been feeling all that well and wasn't thinking when he claimed it ._.)

[Garuda]

Garuda, do you think it's possible whomever put money towards medium was scum trying to flood the market with useless junk?

I doubt it. It's far more likely that whatever ad money they put in was put towards pro-scum abilities like Hitman (because let's face it no townie in their right mind would ever put in money towards advertising shit like that).

[Garuda]

is it really really banal Mina? Is it. I would like to know how often as town you decide to underhandedly discredit the points of people you are town reading. You know for a fact scum don't always just kill someone because of a role. They often kill who the most town person is or who is a threat, so reducing it to a role based on paranoia isn't actually accurate.

I dunno what banal means because I'm not a smart person like you and Mina but that line of questioning right there was following a line of thought that I noticed as well. It didn't seem like she meant to discredit you, it was just an odd post to get a townread from because there was nothing special about it.

[Garuda]

butterfly is scum

No.

[Garuda]

he's suspicious of eagle.

Ok holy shit you really need to recalibrate Syryana's scumdar stat.

[Garuda]

I'm heading to bed so you're going to have to deal with Nacho but we absolutely need to keep certain things private (just need to figure out what those things are...)

[Garuda]

Oh and before I go, I'm going to quote #607 again when I wake up in the morning for anyone who thinks there is even one iota of a chance that LB is scum, just fyi.

[Garuda]

I'm on my phone right now but now that morph's brought it up, it bugs me that Natirasha isn't all over the strategizing going on. Isn't he normally really into that stuff?

[Garuda]

It's late and I'm way too tired to post truly useful stuff. But if anybody wants my opinions on anything then I'll be happy to give them.

For now, a tentative VOTE: voidedmafia
For reasons that have pretty much been listed. I've seen his gameplay and ISO and voided is marginally scummier than Harakiri. Though at this point both of them could possibly be scum. Though if it has to be one, I'm thinking voided.

Vote: Hermy

[Garuda]

Man, I've always wanted to do that.

[Garuda]

Considering that something like half the roster hasn't even posted yet (and it looks like they never will), good luck with that.

Anyway, Nacho should be fully catching up soon, kinda busy with other things at the moment.

[Garuda]

So how much longer do you guys think it will take for Tammy to realize that Lost Butterfly is town? Any guesses?

[Garuda]

Well I'm a greedy, selfish bastard so I'd like to say us but either one works.

(You probably shouldn't have posted that by the way.)

[Garuda]

Ok, I'm going to go read some of this game (Skim really), so, I don't want to read everything. So, can somebody point out the highlights. That will probably speed up my skimming.

You should claim what you put towards advertising last Night, if anything.

[Garuda]

Garuda - Did you guys ever answer what it was about Klick's one post that gave you both a scum read?

Posturing. (#757 adds to this too.)

[Garuda]

hey since we've decided the lynch for today, should we sort out who's doing what tonight? We need to make sure we don't lose any more abilities like Accountant.

Yeah, first step towards this is to figure out what abilities we want to put up and how many of them. It's gonna be hard picking out who is going to put down the money towards advertising given that so many people have posted little-to-nothing but maybe we can work something out? Heading to lunch now but I'll be around later to hammer this out with Nacho.

[Garuda]

11. Banakai - of the one post wonders, Banakai's one post was by far the most town IMO.

Explain please.

[Garuda]

Erm, I thought you guys were basing it off of his #519? Your #530 seemed to suggest as much anyway.

[Garuda]

That post was pretty good too!

It's not a lot to go on, but to us, it's decidedly not null content. Do you disagree?

I feel like we should have a stronger read on Nero, but there's a same-old same-old feel to what he's posted so far.

Yeah, that's why I asked. I don't really see anything in Banakai's posts and it really doesn't take much in the way of effort / competency to be like "hey dudes, I'm reading and will post later" as scum. (And by your criteria, I think Seanald is way better in the "not giving a shit" townvibes front.)

I feel the same way about Nero w.r.t. feeling like I should be getting a stronger read there but he looks pretty solid to me so far.

[Garuda]

459? how? the second line of 459 was kind of meh but i don't know what you mean by posturing here.

The second line is mostly what I'm talking about (though I think the whole thing is forced). Take a look at it in context: it comes not too long after Deadline is activated and it just feels like he's trying to fake being blindsided by it.

P-edit: Voided, I feel like Seanald would have probably more of an attempt to be "helpful" as scum though? He certainly didn't have a problem trying to look pro-town in the last game as scum by attacking Tammy early despite a fast moving thread and then being apologetic when his attack backfired.

[Garuda]

Garuada, what's that vote for?

He's scum.

So, the game is already 19 pages long, and I only have three days to read it?

Is there anything in particular that I need to know?

In particular, this line sounded incredibly fake.

Garuda, do you think it's possible whomever put money towards medium was scum trying to flood the market with useless junk?

Not really. Wasting money on putting useless junk on the market leaves you less money to advertise for useful shit and get good things. I think that scum meant to get Medium for figuring out dead scum buddies then ended up spending most of their money on countering what actually got to market.

i'm null on like all of those quotes. i don't see town tone in any of them and they're all pretty alignment-neutral posts. why did you like them?

The first quote is Voided responding to a question about a possible scumslip with "no clue what you're talking about, but whatever it is, that doesn't make him scum". This is more ballsy than the Voided scum I know.
The second quote is Voided in a weird position because he knows that scum has and will likely activate Deadline (since it went for over $101) and he's reassuring bald eagle that quick lynching won't really be necessary.
Third quote Voided rebuts someone who he *thinks* is misrepping him but doesn't go back to check.
Fourth is good paranoia.
Fifth is good dismissiveness.
Sixth is good paranoia.

My only worry is I'm not sure how feasible it is to organize town blocs today given the short deadline and how many people have barely posted (and aren't the most reliable people to count on to submit money). I prefer just suggesting what abilities should be advertised.

Getting a small townblock together doesn't seem like it would be too difficult, especially with the likes of you/Tammy/Empire/ffery in the game.

Ffery meant "I'm a little discouraged that we'll NOT be able to work effectively together night 1."

I laughed.

Lynching Lost Butterfly day 1 is a HUGE waste, even if you guys are scum, cause I still think you'll legitimately scumhunt to find your buddies. I just wanted to see Mina's reaction to it more than anything.

Molla is upgraded back to good town.

Ughbluh.

upside down is a more confident townread after this post.

Also what the hell, I advertised for austerity measures.

Why?

So how much longer do you guys think it will take for Tammy to realize that Lost Butterfly is town? Any guesses?

I have a more pressing question. Should we gift you or Lost Butterfly with our tuppence tonight?

Neither.

Nacho, you played Newbie 1409. Are you seeing Hermy's play here as significantly different from her early play in that game?

I don't remember at the moment, but I'll check back when I have my date with Empire this afternoon.

I feel like we should have a stronger read on Nero, but there's a same-old same-old feel to what he's posted so far.

He looks OK, but grrrr! kinda creeps me out even though it shouldn't.

[Garuda]

Why?

Scroll up.

[Garuda]

I mean, the post I voted her for was pretty much the textbook Incompetent Scum Entrance. "Hi, there's lots of stuff going on, and instead of saying what my opinions are on any of this stuff, I'm going to be very vague and try to look helpful by offering to answer questions. Oh, look, here are two popular wagons. I guess they could both be scum, or they could both not be. I don't actually have any idea. But I'm still going to add my vote to the largest wagon because of 'reasons listed' and 'his posts and ISO.' Boy, I hope this lynch goes through quickly and I make it to Day Two without anyone noticing I exist." Her reaction to the flash wagon was also atrocious.

+1

Aside from emphasizing the hedging again, would also like to add that she hasn't come back to this thread at all to actually defend herself or explain anything which considering the circumstances is just lol

By the way, Mina, thoughts on what we should actually advertise? I want to get some things like doctor, bulletproof, and commuter up in this personally.

[Garuda]

Can we just please lynch Voided?

I'd rather lynch scum, thanks.

[Garuda]

Abductor x 1: More useful to town than scum. Decent, but I prefer the other protective roles on the list.
Auction Detective x 2: Very potluck, but has the potential correctly, gives you a 1/__ chance of getting a guilty if you hit scum (just ask if a player won Cop, Deadline, or NK on N0).
Bodyguard x 2: Useful for town, useless for scum. Good for someone scummy to pick up.
Bulletproof x 2: Useful for town, useless for scum. Good for one of the trusted town bloc players to pick up.
Commuter x 1: Meh since it's one-shot, and is situationally useful for scum.
Coroner x 2: Useful in conjunction with Auction Detective. Otherwise, not that useful.
Doctor x 2: Useful for town, useless for scum.
Federal Reserve Chairman x 1: Meh. Since there are more townies than scum, that means more money is going in town's hands than scum's. But the advantage isn't as meaningful knowing that scum can coordinate more effectively.
Forensic Accountant x 2: Like coroner, useful in tandem with Auction Detective, but there are much better abilities.
Governor x 1: Situationally useful for town, dangerous in the hands of scum.
Love Potion x 1: Really dangerous if scum get it in LYLO.
Market Analyst x 3: Meh (only situationally useful)
Messenger x 2: Mediocre--can be used for gambits in the hands of town or scum.
Ninja x 4: No (duh).
Roleblocker x 3: No because it's a red power, so scum have a secret advantage in bidding for it.
Self-Watch x 1: Meh.
Tailor x 3: No no no.
Tracker x 2: Yes, because in this set-up, it's easy to catch someone useful.
Vote Nullifier x 1: Antitown (but that didn't stop someone from advertising Vote Freeze).
Wage Freeze x 1: It's free money in the hands of town, so better than nothing, but not as powerful as some of the others.
Watcher x 1: Yes (watchers are a broken role).

I feel like we should be advertising only one of Doctor / Abductor and that Doctor should clearly be the one getting top priority.
Auction Detective is a decent pick too just for the potential of guiltying someone with it (even if it is not very big). Maybe not a whole lot of money spent here?
Bodyguard / Bulletproof / Commuter (which functions as a BP in essence) are all must-haves and absolutely need to be advertised. I am curious as to what would happen if we force scum to BG the NK target as it says that the NK fails if one scum team targets another scum.
Wage Freeze could be incredibly useful and at the very least it's worth having up there. FRC is a maybe.
I don't think we should be putting anything towards potentially negative utility stuff like governor unless there's some plan I haven't fully thought about to take these things off the market for scum?

[Garuda]

This is going to end up like the last game where my slot is tunneling a scumbag at the end of D1 and a bunch of fuckass townies end up mislynching some vaguely scummy looking dude and then I end up dying N1 and raging in the Dead QT, isn't it?

[Garuda]

I haven't talked to Nacho yet to confirm but I want to advertise Bulletproof since Hawk's covering Doc.

[Garuda]

I'm mostly just afraid of abductor turning into another roleblocker in the hands of scum whereas doctor doesn't really have that drawback (at least this was my thought process on it anyway). And I've already suggested that we don't advertise negative utility stuff + it should be fairly obvious that no townie here should be putting money towards shit like Tailor.
Anyway, I'm going to bed and I expect to see a Hermy scumflip when I wake up once everyone is done putting their ad claims up.

[Garuda]

This head (Empire) will be basically gone until Sunday.
Also, I just saw that our N0 advertising claim isn't on the chart from yesterday yet for some weird reason. We put in some towards advertising Neighborizer.

Vote: Voidedmafia

[Garuda]

Phone posting is a bitch but someone asked me why I voted Voided now and it's low effort sheeping because I'm bad. I need to reassess a lot of stuff.

[Garuda]

Also I don't get why people are voting ProHawk? Overstating a correct read after the fact isn't scummy (it's something I've done A LOT as town) and the fact that he seemingly preferred a no lynch is pretty clear evidence that he did actually believe Hermy was obvtown, come on.

Plus a lot of his posts today remind me of Xenologue, will explain when at my PC.

[Garuda]

I was referring to him chiding people for passive attitudes that "will lose town" the game like he did with LLD in that game in the dead QT + him feeling indignant about not being listened to (this isn't as string right now but there was one post where he talked about gloating in the post game).

[Garuda]

Why aren't you annoyed that I'm questioning your placement in the town-bloc?

I just got back to my PC and I skimmed through the thread while I was at my friend's.

Anyway, I don't even get why you're questioning when you yourself even realized last Day phase that I'd never play like this as scum (nevermind the fact that I've written the majority of the posts in a hydra with a guy who enjoys playing as scum) and I'd really rather not have to deal with this bullshit paranoia in this game when you know very well the best way to win is via cooperation so please let me know when you get over this phase, thanks in advance (also, P.S.: LB is still town, sorry).

[Garuda]

I am not really sure what you expect me to do. You don't like my methods? I don't really care. If people don't want to listen to me? Fine. I can just piss and moan and say I told you so-post game.

^for morph the cat, this was the kind of post I was referring to + his reaction to people reacting so dismissively to his cases.

[Garuda]

Oh you mean all the posts you spent whining about cooperation in the town while at the same time getting into a shit fight with LB over nonsense? You don't get to play the "hey I've been really trying to get the town to work together card" when you did literally nothing of the sort while I actually tried to offer something in the short amount of time we had.

Also, did you miss the part where I literally said I had just skimmed the thread and that the implication was that maybe I missed some posts? The fact that I didn't even remember who it was that asked me for the reasoning behind the Voided vote should have been a pretty big clue and I didn't even see your post about you questioning your read on me. Of course I'm going to respond to the one on the most recent page since I just got here too.

P-edit: Mina, I was sheeping everyone else because I honestly don't have confidence in a lot of things right now. I thought Hermy was a slam dunk scum lynch and was utterly floored when she flipped town. I'll give you a reads list when I have some time to actually think about things more.

[Garuda]

If I had to guess, I'd say morph the cat is town if only due to the fact that ffery seems to be more involved but I wouldn't bet the game on it and I'm not willing to give that read so easily after The Game That Shall Not Be Named.

[Garuda]

Hey you huge bolded people ENGAGE US ON THIS SHIT. We'll even purr real loudly just for you. Tammy-syr can come too*

Engage you on what exactly?

[Garuda]

The only townreads I'm confident enough to put into a bloc right now are LB and Pyro because I can't imagine Mina and Tammy respectively posting some of the stuff they have in this game. I'm hoping to induct some new folks into it during this Day phase and actually get a more coherent strategy going on here.

[Garuda]

Also, I don't really see a whole lot to lynch Seanald over. Lots of stupidity, not a whole lot of scummy to me.

Wait a minute, weren't you suspicious earlier of Seanald for not being particularly helpful? What changed?

[Garuda]

garuda i'm really meh on right now. i didn't really like nacho's reasoning for the voided town read and i don't remember much the empire head has done outside of iioa.

I don't think you know what IIoA means if you're saying this about my posts.

[Garuda]

i don't remember anything notable you've done outside of talking about the setup and talking about claims and co-operating with town reads and whatnot.

Fairly sure I did give reads and some reasoning to go along with it and not just regurgitate information that is known. About putting more emphasis on the setup, that is true but that's because I remember how the last game was won and it was won largely due to strategizing. Given the short amount of time we had last Day phase, I'm obviously going to put forth more effort into something that's going to win the game than on writing my trademark Long Masturbatory Walls That No One Reads (they will come soon enough).

[Garuda]

Faraday, why don't you go scum read deez nuts

[Garuda]

Faraday, why don't you go scum read deez nuts

rekt

I'm actually find it really hard to scumhunt here. i'm not sure if it's mechanics throwing me off and mina asking me a bunch of questions i literally have no opinion because despite reviewing the past 2 marketplace games i find myself completely unable to think strategically here in a way that's not "uh we should probably lynch scum". I mean I don't really understand your voided vote because I think sure he has "bad" things but they don't look out of character, there's people I wasn't even aware were playing (banakai and guille?) and I just don't have any slam dunk scum reads and I feel like I'm basically a waste of space here as that's generally what I do and let mina focus on the mechanics but instead feel like a nerd. i mean i have town reads and that's fucking great and all but hey this guy is null let's lynch the fucker isn't good enough.

plz help by making a post with reasons that i can disagree with or something.

tia your good buddy faraday

There's nothing to really understand about my Voided vote right now? It's literally a "hey I'm bad at this game let me park my vote here in the meantime so I could at least be somewhat productive with it while I go un-bad myself" kind of vote. I mean, I guess it's probably the fact that the last Day phase was so rushed that makes me feel crippled in my scumhunting right now but I'm being optimistic that we have two weeks to sort everything out and get some good reads going. And sorry, you're going to have to wait longer for the Big Post With Lots of Words 'til I feel I have a better grasp of this game.

Anyway, I'm heading to bed and probably won't be able to post tomorrow so you'll see more of me on Sunday.

[Garuda]

And for what it's worth, I just ISO'd ProHawk again and I actually feel better about him than I did before so that's a start.

[Garuda]

Because the last time I tried talking to your slot about a townread I had it didn't exactly work so I'm just letting you do your thing. Have fun.

[Garuda]

In other news, I am talking to drunk-Nacho right now and he agrees with my townreads on LB / Pyro / ProHawk / morph (he's more confident on the last one than I am apparently) so that's good.

[Garuda]

Hey, Tammy, remember when I townread Lost Butterfly and you just completely ignored said read and didn't even bother to ask me about why I was reading them as town or anything of the sort despite my repeated insistence of it? Because I sure do and man did that own.

[Garuda]

I'll admit I can't really read Empire well, but he's not the obvtown he can sometimes be. I feel like I can read Nacho alright, though, and he is scum.

Well, you're not really very good at reading Nacho, then. I actually have a good track record of it and I'm fairly confident he's town in this game so you should sheep that.

[Garuda]

Hey, Tammy, remember when I townread Lost Butterfly and you just completely ignored said read and didn't even bother to ask me about why I was reading them as town or anything of the sort despite my repeated insistence of it? Because I sure do and man did that own.

Well considering that you said earlier that you wanted to quote a particular post of Mina's and claim that that post was why she was town, I have a pretty good indication of why you're saying she's town.

How many games have you played with Mina as scum? How many times have you been fooled by Mina as scum? Because if you could count those times and point out why the rant post she made just wouldn't come from her as scum even though I've seen her make posts that sound like that as scum, that would own. Also, considering her other head isn't exactly doing other than trolling, I'm not confident.

Also, I'm not exactly reading you as town, so your reads are being taken with a grain of salt.

I'm fairly sure that my townread on them came well before that post, so no that's not really the complete picture and you didn't even bother to ask for why so try again.
I've hydra'd with both of those players as town before so I do consider myself pretty capable of reading them and what they are/aren't capable of as scum (well admittedly way less so with Faraday), thanks.
And really, though, I'm just tired of dealing with this shit from you in seemingly every game onwards so either you'll read me as town eventually or I can just laugh in the post game as I revoke your ability to correctly nail the easiest meta read on the site. In the mean time, I'll go on and try to you know actually win the game and stuff.

Anyway, bedtime for real now.

[Garuda]

did you tell him you're voting voided? what did he say about that?

He basically told me to do whatever I wanted until he came and caught up fully (there may or may not have been flirting involved in this part of the conversation).

[Garuda]

Could not really care why. Because if you can't figure out a way to talk to me, who you are supposedly town reading, without being antagonistic about it (for instance, doing oh how long will it take for tammy to town read LB, any guesses) you don't get to say shit.

Because really, how hard is it for you to go "Tammy, I don't see Mina going 'x,y,z'?" I know Nacho knows how to do it, so put him on the line maybe? But instead you're like, oh so dumb, and the hydraing bit doesn't make sense because you've hydra'd with me in more games than you've hydra'd with them and both of them are better scum players than I am...not only that you've modded games with a town me in them...and that didn't stop you from being paranoid of me in wingate mansion for nearly no reason at all.

And you can "laugh" at me all you want. You didn't blink that Mina was semi-paranoid of you twice in this game? Guess it's just easier to bitch at me because you expect me to just back down. Here's the dealio, yes, I think a couple of your posts seem like posts you wouldn't make as scum, but your first post seemed prewritten so it doesn't count. And the remainder of your posts to me are bitching about why I might be suspicious of you after I asked you why you weren't annoyed about that. Basically you can bitch at me all you want. You can laugh at me post game all you want. I'll have you solidly town when I believe you haven't done things that I can't see you doing as scum.

I'm being antagonistic and not to Mina because you're being fucking obnoxious about it in a game where the #1 priority should be cooperation just like how you were fucking obnoxious about it in Wingate (where, hey, I reacted antagonistically and even told you to go fuck yourself!). Instead of trying to actually sit down and talk with me, you just ignored me the first time I said that slot was town and continued to do so. Expecting me to chime in when you're having another one of your shit festivals with a slot I am reading as town when my intervention did nothing last time is just frankly fucking absurd. I'm just sick and tired of it. You're literally the main cause of pages upon pages of complete fucking bullshit that I (and apparently other people too) am getting tired of having to read. So when you actually want to sit the fuck down and talk to me in a manner where you don't come across as a colossal shitlord, then I'll be here. Otherwise, I'm just putting your noise on ignore while I go actually scumhunt.

[Garuda]

Like, I keep telling myself to go to sleep and to stop replying to your shit, but I can't help myself.

Whatever, maybe going to bed will actually work this time. See you Sunday.

[Garuda]

Here's the dealio, yes, I think a couple of your posts seem like posts you wouldn't make as scum, but your first post seemed prewritten so it doesn't count. And the remainder of your posts to me are bitching about why I might be suspicious of you after I asked you why you weren't annoyed about that.

Also, did you literally miss my entire fucking Day 1? I mean really?

[Garuda]

Holy fucking shit, is this for real? Like are you even reading my posts anymore?

When in the world did I ever even attempt to discredit your reads in that game? I said that my reacting antagonistically here was very similar to the way you treated me early on in Wingate. In no portion of that post did I even bring up your reads in that game.

[Garuda]

EBWOP: "I said that my reacting antagonistically here was very similar to the way

I reacted to how you treated me

early on in Wingate.

[Garuda]

Am I being trolled right now? Is this real payback for all the times I've been trolling you in the past?

I'm being antagonistic and not to Mina because you're being fucking obnoxious about it in a game where the #1 priority should be cooperation just like how you were fucking obnoxious about it in Wingate (where, hey, I reacted antagonistically and even told you to go fuck yourself!).

Hey look, here is the portion of the post where I brought up Wingate Mansion. All I talk about here is the similarities between that game and this game in regards to how I reacted when you started suspecting me out of paranoia. Where is the part of it where I tried to discredit your reads?

[Garuda]

I WAS TALKING ABOUT YOUR PARANOIA OF ME HOLY FUCKING SHIT I LITERALLY JUST SAID THAT IN BOTH THAT POST AND THE REQUOTING

[Garuda]

ohb my god i have never been so angry at a game of mafia since my time at EM.

I'm just gonna back away slowly and go watch TV or something

[Garuda]

I'm procrastinating to post in here because I wanted to make a giant readslist with Empire. I'll probably post here after a little Skype mafia.

[Garuda]

Garuda, then if that why you think medium got advertised, what do you think of zdenek?

That's why I

thought

Medium got advertised. Zdenek seems town for the sheer ridiculousness of it all.

Why?

I'm very excited by the fact that all you decided to do with your time in this game is ask why one of your lines sounded fake instead of doing literally anything else.

You seemed eccentric, which would imply nervousness.

Eccentric how?

Why is the deadline 15 hours? Didnt this start 3 days ago?

My current bet is that he disappeared and didn't vote Hermy after this "oh I totally don't know deadline was used" comment.

The only person who's really scumreading me is you.

I feel like I got sucked into defending you earlier and I doubt that was the case if eagle was the only one who was scumreading you.

I'd rather not have people overestimating my ability at this game (especially with the combination of how fast games tend to progress nowadays and how little time I have to actually keep up. Those walls everyone complains about are as tiring to make for me as they are to read for everyone else.)

Hermy (11): Lost Butterfly, Garuda, Pyrotechnics, uʍop ǝpısdn, zMuffinMan, Harakiri, VoidedMafia, morph the cat, Lord Mhork, Nero Cain, PeregrineV

No DoctorPepper.

The self-voting crux is just one of the points that factor into my overall read. Again. Don't like it? I don't really care.

It's a point that is not relevant to the hydra's alignment when it is something that one slot does every single game.

I'd rather Voided not escape a lynch today, though.

You'd rather Voided not escape a lynch...?

ProHawk's answer is pretty poor. He pretty clearly didn't think Hermy was obvious town.

I'd rather Voided not escape a lynch today, though. I'd support either.

I would totally consider switching my vote to right here.

I'm probably going to switch our vote to right here unless there are some crazy circumstances.

Also oh hey we got the demon cat avatar back, awesome!

Then why aren't you voting me? The same logic applies.

The same logic doesn't apply when Prohawk is pushing for his top scumread while calling you scummy while you're calling Prohawk scummy but not allowing Voided to "escape".

Either way, we are both pushing for Voided to be lynched.

So? Why does this matter in any universe?

WE HAD THREE DAYS TO LYNCH SOMEBODY!! YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING -BUT- SPEEDLYNCH SOMEBODY IN THAT TIMEFRAME, YOU IDIOT!

This exchange with Prohawk seems more frustrated than anything Voided ever posted in Achievement Unlocked.

I'm probably going to regret this, but yeah I'm going to disagree with Nat, I dont really think prohawk is scum

Unvote

He had terrible reasons for pushing us? Yes, but he also had terrible reasons for pushing me in xenologue (from what i remember at least)

I liked this quite a bit.

More of a kinda cashcabd feel here, from both of us, actually.

And me too! What I like about his Hermy read is the fact that it feels like very loud frustration that everyone is ignoring him per the usual.

Cool. What do you think of Morph the Cat?

Morph is a strong townread for me, somehow.

The only townreads I'm confident enough to put into a bloc right now are LB and Pyro because I can't imagine Mina and Tammy respectively posting some of the stuff they have in this game. I'm hoping to induct some new folks into it during this Day phase and actually get a more coherent strategy going on here.

If you can sort Tammy I'll be delighted. I see your point about Tammy and Mina's posts, though.

Tammy seems pretty frustrated this game and it feels like a very real frustration that I wouldn't expect to see in any of her scumgames ever.

Pity ffereysdstsseyhsiosy and Cabd seem much nicer than Faraday, or else you might have had a hope of escalating the Tammy-morph fight to Tammy-us levels.

I didn't like this.

I would like some extra money today, so can we quicklynch Klick?

change this to Nachopire.

Please don't fuck up quite possibly the only time we will be town together ever.

In other news, I am talking to drunk-Nacho right now and he agrees with my townreads on LB / Pyro / ProHawk / morph (he's more confident on the last one than I am apparently) so that's good.

^^^totally doesn't remember that
but I reread the conversation and it was fucking hilarious

So, cashcabd made you a Nacho expert? And all your paranoia vanished, just like that? In fact, show me a time where you EVER stopped scumhunting because someone told you someone else was town.

For what it's worth, I don't think that ffery would choose the next scumgame morph plays for her to "get her nacho groove back". We're pretty much are constantly playing games together, so it seems safer for her to handle me as closely to how she would handle me as town.

Though I will say this. Exactly what motivation does scum have in claiming they toom Investigation Immunity to keep it "away from scum"? Wouldnt it be easier to just shut up and not say anything as scum? LB is probs town for that imo.

They don't have investigative immunity.

How many games have you played with Mina as scum? How many times have you been fooled by Mina as scum?

I only know town-Mina.

So, you now can magically read Nacho, unless he's being "oblique". Interesting. An ISO chock-full of "I like this"s and "I don't like that's" and other terse and, to use your words, oblique statements, you're so confident that he's town. Hmm. Especially considering all your interactions with his slot up to the point of calling us morons rather assumes he's town. Even more interesting!

What was your read on me before I made this post?

In other news, I am talking to drunk-Nacho right now and he agrees with my townreads on LB / Pyro / ProHawk / morph (he's more confident on the last one than I am apparently) so that's good.

did you tell him you're voting voided? what did he say about that?

No he didn't tell me he was voting voided.
I probably wouldn't have been happy with it.

So when you actually want to sit the fuck down and talk to me in a manner where you don't come across as a colossal shitlord, then I'll be here. Otherwise, I'm just putting your noise on ignore while I go actually scumhunt.

<---the hat is my diplomat hat!

can you puhlease put nacho on the line?!?

I'm here!

Hey Voided when do you plan on using your doublevote?

I liked this question quite a bit.

gods i hope you flip scum. It will be so justifying.

I really don't think they will.

After deadline activation, lost butterfly threw out 3 posts in a row. Now I like your play butterfly but I've noticed scum like to be active right after they've made a play in an attempt to try to control the game, what's your thoughts on that?

My thought on that is that I don't agree with it at all but I think this observation is pretty town from you.

Vote: Klick

commandeering our vote for now

[Garuda]

I haven't had time to catch up with Empire yet, so the big game moving posts are gonna come then, but the general strategy that works best for Marketplace Mafia is the scummy middle ground giving money to the townies on the top, meaning that forming townblocks is the way to victory. I'm a little concerned with the no kill last night since it means scum is either stacking up nightkills (implying strong scum) or otherscum shot at scum N1 (implying strong scum).

I'm seriously doubting either of Morph/Pyro scum is the strong scum we're looking for, meaning I'm mainly focusing on Lost Butterfly/Muffin. Both look pretty town right now but they don't have scumgames that I'm willing to dismiss easily.

Voided/BBMolla/Baldeagle/Harakiri/upside/ProHawk/Zdenek are reads I currently feel wonderfully about and wouldn't mind receiving cash flow.
Peregrine/Mhork/Seanald are reads who are close to the first tier of those townreads but haven't made it there quite yet.

The rest are priorities to be sorted with the exception of Klick, who just needs to die.

[Garuda]

PV, were you the one who claimed to get neighborizer?

He was.

Both look pretty town right now but they don't have scumgames that I'm willing to dismiss easily.

I'm a former don corleone winner and all round good guy!

i hate u fardy

so you dont agree with the idea at all? or just about lost butterfly. Cuz im certain scum posted in the first page occuring after the deadline activation.

I think that it's possible scum either posted near deadline activation, or activated it and went into lurking so they wouldn't be connected with it. Empire saw Hermy posted right after the deadline activation but that didn't come to much excellence so I really don't care too much about the theory in general.

Nacho, some of Voided's posts seem pretty town, but some of them suggest a PoV I just can't grasp coming from town.

I'll look through your ISO to find them in a minute. Right now, my priority is gonna be bringing Pyro into the fold.

I'm wondering why he has said so little about the neighborize ability after the whole shabang day 1 about it.

You expect PV to comment more on it? I think his thought process was likely something along the lines of "I want neighborizer! I'm gonna bid everything I have on it!" and I don't think there's much more to say about that.

Nacho, how the hell is Achievement Unlocked related to this? The reasons for my frustration there are different than here.

I'm saying you're showing signs of passion/engagement that you never even came close to expressing in Achievement Unlocked. It was from a mod perspective which is less awesome for meta purposes, but you never dug your heels in and attacked in the way that you're doing here.

[Garuda]

Oh you mean all the posts you spent whining about cooperation in the town while at the same time getting into a shit fight with LB over nonsense? You don't get to play the "hey I've been really trying to get the town to work together card" when you did literally nothing of the sort while I actually tried to offer something in the short amount of time we had.

So where Empire and I ended up before N1 came up was that Lost Butterfly was incredibly town and the majority of your thrust against them was initially weird. Vote post in #51 had you attacking them for responding to you about freezer instead of responding to eagle (they were responding to eagle, his quote just didn't have a name on it) and them mixing up you with Empire. The next clash was strategy, don't really think that scum-Mina would downplay the effectiveness as neighborizer as scum unless they were their actual thoughts; theory is the easiest thing for scum to talk about because they don't have to lie about it. The next attack was on Mina's "banal" comment, which I didn't think was fair. Empire and I shared that line of thought because we didn't think that the post Mhork was commenting on was that significant. We didn't assume they were talking about the post a couple posts up because usually when people are like "I agree with ^this post" and then a different post ninjas them, they explain what post they are talking about.

#625 from Mina seemed genuine to me in the sense that you accused her of feeling off and she sort of acknowledged that, threw up her hands and went "yes I could maybe fake this as scum but there's currently not a lot more I can do as town". I don't think that Mina/Faraday are more likely to antagonize you as scum and as town, and I think that Faraday letting you and Mina fight and only coming in every once in a while to antagonize you is more of a towntell than anything else; I'd expect him to be taking more of a lead if they were scum, and even IF Faraday let Mina take the lead as far as interactions with you go, I don't think that he'd make her job that much harder by doing nothing but trolling you.

We had a talk before Empire's initial reaction to you that was essentially "what is Tammy doing, I have no idea why she's railing against LB right now because they're town as fuck". He reached out a few times in typical trollEmpire fashion to get you to talk about your LB read because we were reading them as strong town at that point. He was pissed because your response to him having a townread on LB was "I'm not reading you as town yet and I know Mina better". References to past games are references to past games and I don't think we'll get anywhere with the Wingate references (because honestly the only person who was perfection that game was Llamarble), but that's pretty much the gist of it.

[Garuda]

Nacho and I hydra'd in that one and it seemed like we spent most of the game trying to get our town reads to stop FoSing and voting each othere.

Right now, I feel like I feel in Walking Dead and I would not like to repeat that feeling at all. I want this game to feel like Xenoblade with the Walking Dead results and this is the perfect storm for making that happen.

[Garuda]

Peregrine, you used the neighborizer last night, right?

[Garuda]

why?

I've commented on this in bits and pieces already.

i actually think my scum game can be rather transparent if you know what to look for.

Unfortunately, I don't, so this is rather useless.

As said before, not why I was scum reading Mina. She felt off and I was trying to figure out why. How was I supposed to know that she really was addressing baldeagle in that quote when the name wasn't there and the rest of the post was addressed to you in name but actually to me. I was mostly just confused by the whole post.

I realize that now, but it wasn't immediately clear when reading through your posts the first time.

Please don't fuck up quite possibly the only time we will be town together ever.

Please don't treat me like I'm stupid. This is the only thing you've said to me all game; that doesn't sit well.

Usually we don't interact much in games; you call me scum in a troll/non-trolling way I'm never quite able to distinguish between and then I'm called up to read you even though we both know my grasp of your meta is not so good. Why didn't you like our Klick vote?

that it would bring suspicion on you guys if she wasn't posting; therefore you might fake ffery posts to make it look like she's posting more than she actually is and make you guys look town.

This is much easier said than done. The only one of my hydra partners I could consistently fake is mollie, and that's definitely not something I could easily pull off around people that were actually familiar with her.

50/50 on Klick.
50/50 on Sean, atleast he's correctly reading me as town.

Klick: Incredibly scum.
Seanald: Incredibly town.

Cabd's going to write it up and post it later, but we want to quicklynch the fuck out of Klick.

Can we please quicklynch the fuck out of Klick?

There is no town use for Austerity Measures.

I don't think so, keeping the games money as close to zero sounds pretty useful. I'd like to believe in towns ability to outplay scum in thread play rather than through night actions.

Town has more money than scum does.
Austerity Measures takes away more money from town than it does from scum (thus hurts town more).
Scum has already done pretty well in the auction department so far.
Using Austerity Measures means that you're hurting town when town has already been suffering a bit. Keeping the money close to zero doesn't mean that no one wins anything, it means that people the team with less money but in higher amounts (scum) will prosper over the group that has more money that's spread over more people (town).

[Garuda]

You seemed eccentric, which would imply nervousness.

Eccentric how?

...Like, more hyped up than normal? I donno. Not chill Mina town.

Also Empire won't let me put you in the town block yet but I believe in you so could you do some town looking shit so you can join the cool kids club?

[Garuda]

Empire here checking in, just letting you guys know that apparently I have a stomach virus. I'll be catching up here when I don't feel like complete ass.

[Garuda]

Although I will say that Klick probably isn't a good quicklynch target after the replace out/replace in/self-vote shenanigans.

[Garuda]

Nacho is going to tell me that it makes perfect sense for Voided to be this paranoid. And I'm going to point out that even I give Cabd time and room to actually do something I
can I freak out about before I start with the in-thread squinty eyes.

Your paranoia usually has some sort of logic to it. I can't say Voided's does.

since I feel like some of the points in his walls have been insincere and opportunistic.

I'm still getting pretty much the complete opposite of this.

Also, this post reads like he's fishing for the other team:

I don't think PV-scum'd lose much by fishing for a partner N1, so long as it wasn't a blind toss. I would hope that if he is on a team they used other means to find scum last night. (and one in particular)

This is a weak point.

Seanald is a mystery to me at the moment. I keep going both ways, I think his day 1 stuff seemed scummy in the "oh jee willickers guys so many posts" sort of way, I thought the Klick vote was town, but came from a scum thought process, but it could have been his scum process from Marketplace II moving over if that makes sense.

Empire liked Seanald's lack of attempting to appear helpful earlier in the game, I really liked his theory on Lost Butterfly activating deadline.

I don't remember disliking any Klick votes. I think Klick votes are probably fine votes. I'm not sure about Quilford's feelings about Klick, though; I mentioned that I didn't like Klick day 1 to him and he said he felt the same way about the game and that he didn't think it was that bad. I don't think he had a full on townread or anything, though.

I think Quilford had a scumread on us for "the shitty circumstances surrounding [our] Klick vote" or I'm just intensely confused about everything.

I don't know why you think Klick isn't capable of faking all that crap? I've seen him replace out as mafia in very similar circumstances before.

And then replace in and self-vote? That was the part that did it for me, mostly.

@ Bald, you really think Morph would imply that I'm lurking scum then say that he didn't...as town?

What?

Nacho/Empire: Can one of you tell me what we're doing, there are so many people trying to take the lead, just tell me what you want me to do

We gotta figure out what we're doing first.

[Garuda]

So basically, you take the 6 most accepted globally townreads. Assign them each a number 1 to 6. Each player in the null/scum piles rolls their own D6 overnight. Those that roll an even number on their first roll transfer money. Those that roll an odd number use their money to advertise things that are assigned to town to advertise, as an even spread. Those that rolled to transfer money then roll a second D6, and the number they roll is who they transfer money to.

My major concern with your plan is that there's too much money going towards advertising. We can reasonably spend like $20 on what we want to appear the next day and it will appear, and even IF the scum decide to spend major money getting what they want to appear the next night, this accomplishes holding off our powers one more night, which doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. Rolling the d6 to determine who they send money to in the 6 man town block seems to be the best plan to me while designating one or two or maybe even three other scummy people to advertising things.

[Garuda]

Yeah, that's what makes most sense to me.

[Garuda]

And from there, we can use Neighborizer to coordinate and have some of the townreads secretly funnel money to one of them to go for a Nightkill attempt, although that's considerably more risky.

[Garuda]

The day will end when the day will end. We can start worrying when it gets to be near 10 days, if you're that worried about it. Rushing lynching just for the sake of money won't get us anywhere.

Again, I thought this would be an uncharacteristically smooth thing to say if you have deadline/know the other scumteam has deadline and is going to activate it.

Morph, don't lie to me. P-EDIT: We pretty much just were scum together. Sorry if I'm a little paranoid now.

I see how this paranoia can seem fake, but I don't see the scum motivation in faking paranoia of you. Voided sure as hell isn't going to try to mislynch you.

I largely adverted EV for myself. Had thought of the possibility for better people than me to get it, but largely for myself (and to make sure scum didn't advert or get it later).

This does seem optimistic, but it also seems too heavy of an importance on EV which seems to me to be something that an uninformed townie is far more likely to do (see: Seanald and his misguided perception of Austerity Measures).

Given how little I'm liking bald's push on them, I'm starting to think they're town. At the very least I don't think they're scum. I like their most recent post as well.

I didn't like this because it does betray "looking for one scumteam" motivations as well as a confidence in baldeagle being scum that seems pretty overplayed.

Your, ahem, "point" in that post was completely alignment irrelevant and reeks of trying to find a reason to paint bald as scummy.

I DO like this, though.

that wasn't really what i was asking. you are calling them town partially because baldeagle is attacking them. even if bussing weren't an extremely common tactic and even if you're right about baldeagle, LB could be other scum so baldeagle attacking LB shouldn't make you think LB is town just because you're scumreading baldeagle.

...And?

My answer's still the same.

This seemed stubborn as hell, but more likely town than anything. I can't see scum being called on a scumslip and responding with this, just because it seems so damn ballsy.

P-EDIT: Farady, that award doesn't generalize you into being a nice guy all the time. -_-

Voided getting paranoid over Faraday's trolling was good.

Sorry, Empire.

This was genuine as well and has the whole "more smooth than I'm expecting Voided-scum to be" quality to it.

But why would they blow it now? What's so dangerous today that they need to stop any talks right now rather than prevent things later?

And I just realized why the would use it now. Derp.

Seemed genuine.

I don't see how you got "VM was trying to some extent coordinate with the town" from why I advertised EV. I could see where you could get "VM tried to help town", but not coordinate.

Don't see why Voided would challenge his own towniness here.

He's just mad that his VM mislynch is falling through.

Fair question, though.

"Too smooth to be scum", part 3.

WE HAD THREE DAYS TO LYNCH SOMEBODY!! YOU CANNOT DO ANYTHING -BUT- SPEEDLYNCH SOMEBODY IN THAT TIMEFRAME, YOU IDIOT!

Caps make *most* things look fake, but in particular, I understand his frustration and I don't think that he's capable of faking it as scum. Although for the record, this isn't the good part. The good part in the ISO comes later.

Do I have to give you the same spiel I gave Bo about labeling stuff as scumclaims for stupid reasons?

(He was scum in this game, I think.)
He's also talking down to you in a way I'm not sure he would be if he were scum.

You have to understand. Yes, the talk during D1 IS important (or at least most of it is <_<). However, despite all the discussion that came up during D1, only two or three wagons (prior to Hermy's were actually at any strength and had any chance of being the lynch: Mine, Harakiri's, and Lost Butterfly's. No one else had any sort of wagon strength at the time, and those who were originally on those wagons were beginning to believe us to be town and left those wagons without enough votes. As I just said, those of us who originally voted Hermy found a scummy post (and an equally scummy reply/follow-up post) and voted her for it; the rest of the wagoners either agreed with our assessment (and/or didn't like what she said in reply), or piled on for the sake of getting a lynch (which is ALMOST ALWAYS BETTER THAN NO-LYNCHES NO MATTER WHAT YOU THINK THE ALIGNMENT OF THE LYNCHEE IS, EXCEPT IN VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES ON A GAME-TO-GAME BASIS!).

If you truly found this to be lynch bait, etc., why did you not try to push against her lynch back when there was still 48 hours or so left? I may not be remembering events correctly at that time, but there was very little opposition to the wagon when it first started (excepting yourself).

This was the better part of the ISO that I promised, and I'm also fairly confident that this push came at a time when Prohawk was beginning to lose a lot of heat and be accepted as one of the townie chosen few. The initial push might have been opportunistic, but the followup pushes combined with the frustration in his interactions with Prohawk are NOT opportunistic anymore and are actually very very town.

How sad is it that I'm completely unable to get any handle on how I feel about Morph, pyro, Garuda, or Upside down? These spats that they're having should probably be pinging my radars at some level, but I can't seem to find it, and it's getting a little (read: very) irritating. Maybe it's just because these spats just read to me as useless blather that only helps them determine their read(s) on each other.

This frustration seemed very genuine, although I note the lack of Lost Butterfly in these complaints.

Hell, Mr. non-answer. Would you like to see my scummy pile?

Also seemed like an unlikely interaction w/morph if Voided were scum.

morph are in my scumpile.

The reasoning for this (the majority of which I could grok was "sheeping Nacho when your reads are to the contrary" and things like this) make this statement more town than it already is, regardless of its horribly wrong-ocity.

I still feel that prohawk should be lynched, but it seems that there is not enough support for it.

Vote: Baldeagle

This vote is interesting because when it's followed up, it's followed up with a:

Nero's continued reactions to this topic pertaining to him are making me convinced that he should be going soon. UD's starting to make me feel the same way, but not as badly as Nero is.

Vote: Nero

...which comes a bit more out of the blue and could be trying to capitalize on the growing nero hate.

Seanald is just being stupid. I'd like to maintain a scumread on him but I just can't fathom ANY scum saying that shit with a straight face. He's not town and never will be town, but I won't lynch him today.

This seemed genuine.

Overall, Voided is still a strongread for me. There are signs of paranoia (and not just the obvious early one) all over the place, and he's pulling this game off with a confidence I personally haven't seen in any of his scumgames. There are a few quotes that I look at for a while and then go "if Voided is really pulling this off as scum, then he's doing a hell of a job" and they aren't in one or two places but are generously sprinkled all throughout his ISO. I don't think Voided has a scumgame that looks like this.

[Garuda]

Both.

[Garuda]

The strongest reason for Peregrine being town is probably snagging Neighborizer Night 0 for $100, and the way that situation that came about. Regardless of what scumteam he was with, if Peregrine put down a $100 bid on something that would be that effective for scum and just sort of got it, I think scum would keep that on the down low and not let him claim it. But just in case it was just a bid that looked town enough where the scumteam decided he should probably claim it, the really good parts are the followup based on him attacking people based on the scumminess of their advertisements. And when he conflicts with Muffin about this specific scenario, he immediately and smoothly turns to attacking the fuck out of Muffin based on that logic, which seemed extremely town to me. Peregrine is generally a pretty lurky guy in general, and as scum he exploits that and stays under the radar, so I can't imagine Peregrine-scum coasting on a good amount of towncred buckling down to attack Muffin, of all people.

Very likely town.

[Garuda]

Was thinking that Sean might be a decent lynch 'cause I think scum DO like to complain about the size of said thread (but town do as well so its pretty null).

I have no idea why Seanald was zeroed out here.

not scum, Tammy. Go away.

Show me.

I can't until Harakiri flips scum or they try and argue with me but no, they are avoiding me like the plague 'cause they know that arguing with me will only bring attention to themselves.

I thought this response was actually pretty good.

I can't find it but this "I'm going to blindly sheep Nacho" is just so grrrrrr!!!

If we aren't lynching that can you guys atleast send me money so I can buy a nightkill?

This sounded a bit fake, but the bolded is just too ballsy to be coming from scumNero, I think.

I could buy a Hana/Voided team.

This seemed opportunistic, as did

vote:Hermy

This. Easiest move for scum to pull when they're getting a free lynch is to quietly shuffle on the wagon which is pretty much exactly what Nero did here.

I'll advertise FRC

I liked this! I think scumNero would be more likely to keep his mouth shut and not advertise anything.

Frustration with Muffin almost certainly feels genuine, but I'm not sure if it's alignment-relevant.

Says Muffin's been "bleeding town" but doesn't notice Muffin defending him?

If Muffin is scum its not with Mhork.

This was a pretty good observation.

Leaning town here.

[Garuda]

Not relevant with the pace of this game, you know that mhork. And maybe I shoulda been like the others and simply not posted anything. I'm in it to win it, but I ain't fucking reading the whole thread when it's generating 3 pages an hour. Like I said at that point go fuck selves.

Lol and this pathetic attempt to find a last minute easy lurker lynch isn't scummy? Are you kidding me here? There is plenty of information to settle on an informable valuable lynch rather than my useless ass. Now your just playing bad.

Empire and I both thought that there was absolutely no attempt to posture, look helpful or town at all and we both liked that quite a bit.

After deadline activation, lost butterfly threw out 3 posts in a row. Now I like your play butterfly but I've noticed scum like to be active right after they've made a play in an attempt to try to control the game, what's your thoughts on that?

I liked this quite a bit, and I like how Seanald encouraged everyone to talk about it, pushed his theory along.

controlling the money controls the game dude. why wouldn't i get that ability.

This seemed good mainly because the thought behind it is misguided, but still has pretty decent town motivation. I also don't think any scumteam would let him claim that he had something like this since they aren't able to activate the ability anymore or Seanald is pretty much speedlynched.

I think this is probably the best townread I've had on Seanald in a while.

[Garuda]

fluff. not alignment indicative, but I'm interested in seeing if upside down attacks her for "fluff" given he's doing the same for baldeagle

up to 319, I haven't seen uwop yell at anyone else for "fluff". it seems suspicious since it's not consistent

I liked the followup here; felt genuine and not the type of thing scum would think to fake in a catchup post.

hold on a second. in 147 Harakiri went "all in" on getting Neighborizer but only spent 90. uwop and zmuffin criticized LB for only putting 80 in order to win investigation immunity, but they weren't criticizing Harakiri for doing the same thing? I don't get this at all

I thought this was a good thing to pick up on.

oh my god this <3 uwop jumped to near the top of my townlist with this. even though I disagree with some of those scumreads, I totally agree there's a good chance there's a few scum being really active just to fuck with everyone. this makes me think about Mhork/Voided/zmuffin even more. incidentally, I'm kind of surprised he didn't point out Mhork in this post. Pyro/LB just reads like yet another argument where they're so convinced each other are scum that they don't bother with anything else.

This seemed incredibly genuine.

points out 2 people who aren't really posting and the main wagon. seems pretty hazardous for me

Good observation.

As a whole, the catchup post mostly felt town. I got the sense that he was actually reading over everything (a lot of those responses were quotes midwall), and a lot of the points that he does make are good/feel genuine. I don't think it was as town as I felt it was when I first looked at it, though. Subsequent push against Klick feels genuine.

[Garuda]

Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt the robotic Facebook "I LIKE THIS" type posts that seem to going into excruciatingly unnecessary detail at times but I am curious!

I can't be as smooth and sensual as you, so I'm going through the playerlist and walling for most of them so I can get decently developed reads. Then, Empire is going to check my work.

[Garuda]

how so? like... what was ballsy about it and what risk could that have posed to nero-scum?

It's ballsy because he's being overconfident about his towniness. The risk it poses to Nero-scum is the risk any scumbag has when they say anything; that they'll find it scummy. This in particular appeals to people that can read him well, so if they're reading him as scum at that point, sucks for him.

Under a day left to deadline, Hermy is obviously getting lynched... why would Nero offer to advertise anything as scum?

btw, it's nice and all that you're going through the entire player list and calling them town (including klick, who you're still voting), but who do you guys actually think is scum?

Working on it.

[Garuda]

It's ballsy because he's being overconfident about his towniness.

This is the ballsy part. I find it more difficult to parade around and call myself obvtown when I'm clearly not as opposed to when I have my town role PM + my usual awesome town play to back it up.

[Garuda]

I think we put $7 down on Neighborizer.

[Garuda]

Yep, we did.

[Garuda]

Banakai ... come out looking really good.

This is the most useful conclusion, and I see how you got there. I already believed him when he said he advertised what he advertised, and it seemed like a townie spread of abilities.

[Garuda]

Klick prides himself on his unconventional scumplay. Also selfvoting for him is as null as it is for Harakiri.

Hopefully Empire can reach a conclusion on him then! Otherwise, Klick just managed to hit most of the right notes out of sheer bullshit luck.

Have you just eaten a peanut butter sandwich or something? Why are you calling everything smooth?

It felt like a good word to use yesterday.

then that also runs the risk of being called out for not offering to advertise something, so...

This risk doesn't seem to be very large. Do you think it is?

that's more a your playstyle vs others' playstyle thing, then? i don't usually have a problem with calling myself obvtown when i'm clearly not.

You're a special case.

having some paranoia of them, actually, but we still think they should be included

Still?

Sometimes scumhunting is more about townreads and PoE than about strong scumreads.

I also want to say I have a good read (or as good a read as I'm going to get) on most players before redirecting the lynch.

[Garuda]

Vote: DoctorPepper

Then let's work on getting this lynched while I'm finishing my holy work.

[Garuda]

I'll keep on keeping on, then.

[Garuda]

VOTE: Pyrotechnics

Anyone with the following abilities should claim right away: Deadline, Hitman, Investigative Immune, Nightkill. I'd want Extra Vote and Vote Freezer to claim, too.

We got Investigation Immune! I can't believe it was so cheap. We even bid $80 on it to keep it out of scum's hands.

My initial reaction to this is that it was incredibly town, especially coming from Mina. Town motivation is pretty fucking clear, and it seems like an extraordinarily weird reaction to be coming from scum. Second thought was that it's also a good way to get your foot in the door early, especially with a counterclaim (aka you become the center of attention early) which is a great thing for scum who can handle the attention, and something I

know

Faraday thinks about thanks to a conversation with Tammy a while back.

I talk A LOT with Faraday, but mostly on AIM. But for this game, I've been asking Magua five zillion questions about every single role interaction in the hydra QT.

And nothing interesting came of this?

Voided, if it makes you feel better, you're actually making me feel slightly guilty about my vote on you. But why are you defending me this hard? I'm town, but there's no way you can be sure of it this early; I mean, I've mostly been on the defensive so far and this game has been open for barely an hour, so I haven't even had time to do anything that looks all that town.

Questioning people when they have shoddy townreads on you and a reason to buddy you is A+ good. Most people end up letting these things go regardless of alignment, so usually the questioning is a sign of good paranoia.

You should probably vote me for avoiding your questions, tammy

This is what I was talking about earlier re: hydra dynamics. I'd expect Faraday to allow Mina to handle the posting herself regardless of their alignment, but I can't imagine him purposely making the job of looking town more difficult by just popping in and antagonizing Tammy while doing pretty much nothing else that's even vaguely important.

#214 is a thoroughly awesome post which very wonderfully describes why baldeagle is town.

So something Faraday has done before was claim miller just to see if a real miller would counterclaim him, and then retract it. We decided to run with something similar here.

In this game, it has less utility (since we know what roles in the game, and anyone could counter us), but we thought that if we claimed to have won something antitown, we could possibly get someone to look really town by their reaction (or possibly give away knowing outside information).

For a while, I was debating between claiming Hitman and Investigation Immune. At first, we wanted Hitman, because we thought a scum investigation immune player would be more likely to counterclaim us. (Before we got our role PMs, we'd considered a scum strategy would be to bid on investigation immunity, claim it to look town, and then transfer it to a teammate and give him cop protection). Hitman is more likely something scum wouldn't claim--particularly since WE look scummy if a NK goes through that shouldn't have.

But then I thought about it, and realized we should choose Inv. Immune for the opposite reason. Town will almost certainly claim either Hitman or Scum. But scum is much more likely to claim Investigation Immune than Hitman for town cred. So if we claim Investigation Immune (and scum has it), they go, "Score! They're probably on the other Mafia Faction and signalling to us!" Or capitalize on the confusion and say nothing. So the object was also to reduce the chance of scum claiming inv. immune (and then passing it on). (Actually, now I just realized that it might have been better to let them claim it and be held accountable. OOPS.)

HOWEVER, my major mistake in the plan: not accounting for the fact that scum are confirmed to have cop right now. I'd thought of this before seeing the auction results, and didn't take into account the fact that the investigation immune role is no longer even a threat to town when the scum have cop.

So...long story short: I should have claimed Hitman.

This, however, lends more credence to the "good town gambit" over "getting foot in the door". The thought process here seems SMOOTH, developed, and down a hell of a rabbit hole if these two are scum.

preview-edit: is no one reading my posts at all? My reveal barely drew crickets, just lots of fluff about breakfast cereals.

I liked this quote. It showed antsiness after a big reveal that I think scum would be less willing to share.

UNVOTE: Lord Mhork

Hope Faraday doesn't mind (he's away in Niagara Falls), but I'm extremely uncomfortable being on this wagon now.

Good time to back off.

3) Honestly, it just read genuine. It's the "bitches" that did it for me.

This was good, and I agree with it for some strange reason.

You know what's a sign that there's a problem? My read on Pyrotechnics is, "I'd think they're town, but they suspect us for braindead reasons." Literally. That is why I'm paranoid of you now. There is no more depth to it than that. No, the pieces for Pyrotechnics-scum don't actually fit, because their neighbourizer thing is protown, and I really don't see Tammy attacking us this hard as town. But I don't care. Your posts do not make sense right now. Because that's how terrible your case is.

Genuine note #1.

Not once have you so much as reevaluated us (after our unclaim, after my posts today). The closest thing was when I posted strategy...which actually, wasn't a town tell at all, since anyone can post strategy. And I mean, do you really think you're going to get strategy instead of trolling from Faraday? I'd have expected something like long and reasoned evaluations on our posts, questions on my reads, or trademark town!Tammy waffling.

Genuine note #2.

Frankly, sometimes I feel like I'm in a never-ending arms race between my scum and town game when I play with people I know well. I can't look obvtown every second. I can't always have a breaking strategy or concern myself with appearances or be attentive to every single detail in the thread or always be emotional/spontaneous/whatever it is "town Mina" sounds like. And after a certain point, there's only so much I can up the ante by.

Genuine note #3, although not as great as #1 or #2.

All in all, feels town as fuck.

I'm actually pretty confident that morph is town for *reasons*.

This was weird.

if you could stop posting that'd be really awesome

I'm sure you'd love me to not rail at your scumbuddy, but that's really just too bad.

I get a strong desire to step in front of a bus everytime I read one of your posts.

Hydra dynamics, part 2: the better example.

Also, this post reads like he's fishing for the other team:

This attack was pretty weak.

Okay. Advertisements.

This post definitely felt like it was coming from a town POV, was an interesting way to tackle the game. It feels like Mina is attempting to solve the game from a lot of different directions, which is actually pretty excellent. This post in particular really,

really

felt like something that would be extraordinarily difficult to fake as scum.

Even over Pyrotechnics (having some paranoia of them, actually, but we still think they should be included).

Don't like this. It seems strange that they would go "hey we're still kind of paranoid of this player but we're gonna put them in the town block anyways".

[Garuda]

We lost the bid for neighborizer. I submit that whoever won it needs to claim it so that we can evaluate them. Also, I don't see neighborizer in the abilities not yet auctioned, so I *think* from what I've read it won't show up again, but if it does or can be advertised it's something that we shouldn't do.

Not necessarily. They could easily bid whatever they wanted to mess with our heads and keep us guessing. They got cop, which means they're going to be looking for the other team at night. Neighborizer is the only way they'll be able to communicate. I want to make sure the neighborizer is town.

Let's look at it this way, the person who has the neighborhood is scum? They can not claim and then hold onto it while they cop people to try to find the other team and then neighborhood one of them, then get information for who else to neighborize from the other team. YAY now they can communicate and town has a harder time of winning this game.

If the neighborizer is town, they claim and will be using it night one and two, we can evaluate them and their choices. This is good for town.

Tammy's thought process with regards to the neighborizer is crazy clear, and I like how she expects Mina to share her thought process/gets paranoid of her when she doesn't. Town-Tammy pretty forcefully throws her thought processes on people sometimes because she's town and other townies should be thinking like her, but she doesn't do any of that in her scumgame.

I couldn't care less whether or not you LIKE why I find you suspicious. If you know me and If you know my town self, you know that I don't think that early game suspicions have to be awesome and you push where something feels off no matter how small it may be. The first point does look like it's questioning me, so it looks really lazy on your part, and it looks like you're throwing something on me just to do it. But what really caught me as off is the calling me Empire and asking questions of Garuda, who hadn't even posted. You'd also know if you recognize me and my town game that the amount of time I pay attention to early game suspicion by other people is about *-* much, so you can't throw that against me either. It just feels off to me that you're getting all of that confused.

You do realize that my question to you about you asking Magua questions about roles is AFTER I had already voted you. So, are you faulting me for questioning you to try to determine your alignment further? Are you serious? You do understand you're the Mina who in a Westeros game asked the mod every single questions available and trapped scum day one because of that? So, yeah, for me that if you asked Magua a million questions about all the role interactions I do wonder why you didn't understand the neighborizer potential problem. If you meant why I claimed to have bid $100, why didn't you ask that. And I don't know why that's such a problem as that's how much I bid, especially when you came out and claimed how much you bid on your role. So, what's your point again?

This is incredibly town. Bonus incredibly town points are that she's railing this hard against Lost Butterfly.

is it really really banal Mina? Is it. I would like to know how often as town you decide to underhandedly discredit the points of people you are town reading. You know for a fact scum don't always just kill someone because of a role. They often kill who the most town person is or who is a threat, so reducing it to a role based on paranoia isn't actually accurate.

Also incredibly town.

None of the things you posted is *why* I suspect you though. It's gut and tone. You just decided I suspected you for some reason that didn't enter my mind. The the claim and unclaimed thing, I only found it odd that you would be shamed into dropping something you hoped would be protown because empire said he didn't want any gambits. I get that cabd asked the question about voided and mhork, but even still the comparison strikes me as off because it's not actually taking into account the players involved. So expecting mhork to behave the same way a strong confident player played read off. It wouldn't have read off if there was accounting for that in there. To me, it looked like faraday was doing what he does when he's scum and that's go after what is "scummy" while when town he actually looks for the scum.

And you're right I haven't reevaluated anything yet, but why are you expecting me to jump to it today? I'm extremely busy right now and have done nothing but grading today and getting stuff ready for the 5 evaluations I'm getting this week. So you can shove those long reasoned posts right now especially considering the game hasn't been open for very long. Stop having these overblown expectations for me.

And Ftr all day long when I've caught up I've wanted to read you as town, I really have, because they superficially look townish. But I know you and I know how good you are at mimicking your town play, and I go he this sounds fake. Your posts to mhork have just really rubbed me the wrong way. and I was just kinda hoping to see some protown plan being put in motion, especially since you asked a zillion questions, but there's really not anything. And that might not be a fair expectation, but I am waiting to see that thing that will flip the switch.

Even your rant at me I want to go, oh that's definitely town Mina, never mind, but I also know you're capable of mimicking that too.

still incredibly town

I'm too tired to give a more substantial response to Tammy, but if you'd said all this in the first place, Faraday and I would have been a lot less tetchy in response.

Frankly, sometimes I feel like I'm in a never-ending arms race between my scum and town game when I play with people I know well. I can't look obvtown every second. I can't always have a breaking strategy or concern myself with appearances or be attentive to every single detail in the thread or always be emotional/spontaneous/whatever it is "town Mina" sounds like. And after a certain point, there's only so much I can up the ante by. There isn't anything I can do to defend against a case like that other than say, "Well, yeah, I

can

fake my town meta decently sometimes. So I guess...just be lucky I got a town PM?"

The woes of being a sociopath.

I also think you're overrating my skill as town. You said I have overblown expectations of you--don't you think the reverse is true if you're attacking me for not having broken the entire game in twenty-four hours? (I mean, I'm perfectly happy with the ratio of scumhunting-to-theory-discussion I've done this game.)

Faraday can answer the thing about Voidedmafia and Lord Mhork himself, since I don't think I've played much with Voided and am not sure of his skill level.

I'm curious to know why Syryana is scumreading us, though. He doesn't know anything about our scum meta.

@Mhork: our push on you was real. If we're talking about the same thing, then I was asking why you were calling us scum but also seemed to believe we had actual conviction in our push on you. I'm also kind of curious to why you decided to single out BBmolla on your wagon. Beyond that, that's it.

I can relate to the problems of expectations of being obvtown.

As far as me not saying what I said the first night, that's a load of crap. In your hyperbolic rant about my egregious misreps and me literally quoting everything you said and misinterpretting it, you were way far off. There was some miscommunication earlier,

in which you don't seem to want to accept some of it was on your part ie asking me a question about why I wanted neighborizer to claim when apparently you meant to ask me a different question entirely.

never mind you do. I never even made a case on you, but you were quick to point out the nonexistent case you assumed was a case where stupid, no wait braindead, reasons to suspect you when you just felt off and every post you made felt more and more off.

But you know I did elaborate on the point I was making to Faraday about the comparison between Mhork and Voided. here here and here which I guess it was just more fun to insult me and make fun of me for incorrectly assuming I didn't realize that Faraday was trolling me early, which I think my responses to him were pretty obvious that I knew he was trolling me but whatever. And maybe I didn't get my point across clearly of what I was asking him, because I was trying to make sense of his reads to make sense of him, but you should cut the functionally retarded some slack.

And I never said Oh mina you should have this game broken already. But it did seem odd to me that having asked Magua a million questions about the setups and the roles, there wasn't much of a hint of trying to come up with a plan or coordinate something for town. (And no I don't expect for Faraday to do anything other than troll. And yes, your strategy post could be written by either alignment, but it was nice to see something that was proactive, something that I would expect from someone who had thought about the game enough to ask the mod a bunch of questions.) It's just something that I would have liked to have seen earlier. And really the only person that actually seemed interested in some protown coordination that night was Empire and to a lesser extent Voided. And my overdefensiveness about the neighborizer thing is nothing like the BSG thing but cute of you to bring that up. And it did seem odd to me that someone who asked a bunch of questions to the mod about the roles would find it so strange that I would want the neighborizer to claim. And instead of attacking me for omg claiming I didn't get it and later on attacking me for admitting how much I bid, I find it odd that you didn't actually try to come up with a plan that would be beneficial for the town. If I recall correctly, Empire was the only one to think of a way that the neighborizer could stay hidden but be evaluated.

What is overblown, and still annoys me to some extent, is your comparing at least two weeks to a month of me trying to determine your alignment by asking questions and talking about your meta and reasoning out my read on you and trying to claim that I'm not doing something that took me a month to do in another game in the space of 24 hours here. Like I just read that paragraph again, and I can't believe you actually wrote that. And the thing is I can't believe that you actually believed that enough to write it. I don't know I'm just going to shut up right now because I just think that with the way your slot interacted with me that night you really don't have a right to talk down to me. Maybe there were some communication issues and some of it was my fault, but you assumed reasonings for things that I didn't have. You felt off, you still feel off, and me trying to reason out why you felt wrong when you asked about things as I was trying to determine it myself doesn't make me braindead.

the obvtown atomic bomb

If two players you know aren't shit at this game start throwing out complete batshit idiotic reads and fractures your townblock (which, according to you, is exactly what we've been doing), why the fuck are you townreading us?

still incredibly obvtown

town town town town
town everywhere

Reading through their ISO I'm not particularly inclined to do much explaining with this read (because it should be really really obvious to everyone with eyes), but reminding myself of how fucking town they are makes me get weird on LB a little more because honestly the paranoia on Tammy should be pretty much eradicated and turned to ash in a blast oven by now. I don't care how bad you think Tammy's points on you are, do you really think *this* is what her scumgame has become?

[Garuda]

Then nearly every game we've played together must seem strange.

Oh wait. That's playing to my meta, isn't it.

Scum-ffery is usually bad at responding to pressure as scum (when we talked post-Xenologue, she told me that she literally had no idea how she would react as town but the Xenologue reaction sure as hell wasn't it). Immediately after that, I got two pretty close experiences of ffery under pressure when we got wagonned in both The Walking Dead and Perpetual MyLo. This felt a hell of a lot more like her reactions in the latter two, and I'm not sure she could handle me starting to get weird on her so well as scum.

VOTE: Harakira

Cabd tore himself away from pokemon to put some time into this game. I thought you would too. If you're town.

I thought this reach out was pretty good, especially since it was obvious Sakura was going to make that slot obvtown eventually.

Plus a lot of his posts today remind me of Xenologue

More of a kinda cashcabd feel here, from both of us, actually. And for me (cabd) a few hawk-town games from our home site, including a recent one where he pegged me as SK and didn't let up really. Also has a 165-ish vibe for ffery.

I like the interactions with ProHawk here. Calling him town is kind of a dangerous ground for Cabd since ProHawk could peg him at pretty much any moment, so when Cabd is scum and ProHawk is town he tends to edge him out a bit so that he can take a stronger position when arguing with ProHawk. Right now, morph has him as town town town so a 180 would be extraordinarily difficult to pull off and it feels like Cabd isn't really afraid of him, which is a great sign.

I'm happy with Nacho. I liked his effort to sort me quite a lot.

I feel like I've got my nacho radar back, actually.

This was good as well. I doubt ffery-scum uses a scumgame to pull the "hey I think I figured out how to read nacho again" card.

I'm terribly sorry that you two drew scum yet again, but you both really should have realized that treating me like some kind of village idiot is about the worst possible way of attempting to fool me.

I have been dancing with joy with nearly every post in this game. I'm not watching every step trying not to screw things up for my partner. morph is on my territory. And however this game works out, this is going to be morph-town meta.

This was an incredibly town response to the vote on them and an incredibly hard thing to pull off.

Aw Syr. I was sure that you had my town game calibrated by now. Maybe next time you'll get it right from the start.

^^as was this

Those two posts make kind of a one-two punch of towniness for the morph slot; it's a confident as hell foot forward by ffery and this also marks a bit of a turning point where she takes a very definitive lead of the hydra. It's a pretty harsh difference from the past two morph the cat scumgames, and not in a subtle sense but a very very obvious one.

I'm really sorry I feel this way. But, I don't want to put any more effort into working this out right now.

This felt genuine.

gods i hope you flip scum. It will be so justifying.

I am not even a tiny bit sorry that we'll disappoint.

Though I guess the feeling is mutual in a way. It would be nice to think that at the end of this all, I'll look back and think "well of course, they were scum." But, I don't think so. I think you're town, and yet the disconnect is so vast and pervasive that we're not likely to overcome it.

Ffery getting tunneled as town versus getting tunneled as scum, part 2. There's a word I can't think of right now, but ffery feels so (it's not justified but that's what coming to mind right now) that I actually can't picture her pulling off something like this as scum ever.

You are a Mafia (Left Hand) Member, along with your partners [Partner names go here].

Nest Egg: You start the game with [Some amount >100].
Wage: At the end of every Day, you will receive [Given no time bonus, some value >50].
Mafia Bonus: At the end of every Day, [Some fixed amount probably, 25?].
Insider Dealings: Any money you spend bidding on auctions that are listed in red is [Probably only half used or partially refunded]

Dirty Tricks ($$$): You have a number of dirty tricks at your disposal. Each Night, each member of your team may perform one of these (if desired); however, each Dirty Trick may only be performed once per Night. The first Dirty Trick is free; each subsequent use [some signifigant but not impossible amount]. Dirty Tricks are not treated as targeted abilities; they cannot be roleblocked, and will not appear on Tracker or Watcher reports.
•Wire Fraud: Name two players, a transferer and a transferee. Any money that the transferer would transfer to the transferee during this Night [are blocked and or given to you instead].
•Lockout: Name a target player and a current auction. Any bid made by the targeted player for that auction [will not count as a bid?].
•Countermeasures: Name a target player, a targeted ability name, and a target. If that player attempts to use that ability on that target during this same Night, [that action will fail and they will lose that action].
Shell Game ($$$): At any point during the Night, you may [choose?] to transfer some or all usages of one of your abilities amongst your team as desired. They may be used by the recipients that same Night.

•Transfer: Choose another player. If that player is on your team, [there is no cost to transfer money to them]. Otherwise, [same as town role pm?, 80% goes to them probs].

The setup dance struck me as amazingly townish from both Nat and Cabd. It's incredibly difficult to try to "guess" scum info when you already know that scum info and the way it was done just felt town.

[Garuda]

That is a strange townpile, hawkie.

[Garuda]

Get your own nickname for him, nacho, that one is reserved.

you're not the boss of me mom

[Garuda]

my girlfriend thinks this avatar is fucking adorable

[Garuda]

I didn't bid on anything

Who should I dayvig

Edit: lol selfvote

VOTE: zMuffinMan

I liked BB's opening! I had a feeling his openings as scum/town are actually similar to his play in face to face, went through a few of his games and tried to peg him based on his first post and his first post only. The conclusion was that this tell holds a hell of a lot better than it should and BBMolla's opening is a town point in his direction.

(Well, to add to my recent post, I find Muffin's reasons for suspecting baldeagle plausible.

Hey, BBmolla, why the fuck is your vote on Muffin, particularly since you've been calling multiple other people scum?)

Evil scheme

Or I forgot

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lost Butterfly

Why the profanity

I liked the attempt to tilt LB, which feels like a seriously unlikely scum BBMolla move. It makes sense for him to figure out Mina acting weird if she's bullshitting about a gambit, and it makes sense he's not able to articulate

why

she feels weird. It's also a move to put him on the map early, which is cool.

Lynching Lost Butterfly day 1 is a HUGE waste, even if you guys are scum, cause I still think you'll legitimately scumhunt to find your buddies. I just wanted to see Mina's reaction to it more than anything.

This seemed like strange BBMolla reasoning, but decidedly townish. I can't see him coming up with a plan to soft tilt Mina and then back off regardless of reaction and then say "oh I'll leave you alive for a while to scumhunt your buddies" as scum.

I also like how visibly guilty he is about catching up in the thread; it feels more genuine than him falling behind in Communism Ho. His main effort to catch up is pretty much to be obvious town, asks everyone what he needs to do feels good to me.

[Garuda]

I think this post is a pretty great reason to call Banakai town + morph's gut. His advertisement claims seem pretty townish as well, and from what ended up popping up seemed pretty disorganized to the point where I don't think scumteams invested a lot in "advertise something to look town".

I really liked Sakura taking the leading role in Harakiri; Natirasha is more the scum preference member of the hydra and I expect he's the one who would be taking the lead if they rolled scum. Her early efforts to sort felt pretty damn genuine, especially her attack of Lost Butterfly in #207. I like that she's relied on me a bit, but not too heavily; she's been making her own pushes then coming back to sheeping us when she loses steam on a push.

I think sitting in the middle of the thread complaining about how stupid everything is was less likely to be coming from a scum Natirasha. Scum usually thrive during times where the gamestate is completely fucked (aka when everyone's fighting) and I know Natirasha is particularly more in tune with the tempo of the thread than most people so it makes a lot of sense that it bothered him so strongly.

On the whole, I want to make money to salvage the night phase as best we can. Let's lynch hard and fast

I liked the pushes to quicklynch. They felt like something Natirasha was less likely to pull as scum, and also consistent with his earlier frustration.

Awwww, how cute, I managed to make sakura paranoid. Tell the other head he still owes me a setup spec dance.

Yeah, I'm here. I'm always up for a dance. First, some fitting music.

Spoiler: And here's the Mafia Role PMs from MMII

The free market is fine, but it’s so...inefficient. A shame, really, but from that insight you quickly realized that with the help of a few others who shared your views that this is a turning point, a time of opportunity. Control of the marketplace can lead to all of your dreams coming true; given such a reward, it’s obvious that you’ll do anything to eliminate the competition -- permanently.

You are a Mafia (Left Hand) Member.

Nest Egg: You start the game with $150.
Wage: At the end of every Day, you will receive $100.
Efficiency Bonus: You do not receive an efficiency bonus.
Mafia Bonus: At the end of every Day, $100 is split evenly amongst the living members of your team (any fractions are lost).

Money (P): Each Night, you may spend any or all of your money on the following activities:
Bid: Bid on abilities being auctioned off in the marketplace. Described in Section III.
Invest: The following Night, you will receive 140% (round down) of what you invested (note that this is different from the Entrepreneur’s investment rate).
Transfer: Choose another player. If that player is on your team, they will immediately receive 95% (round down) of what you transferred. Otherwise, they will receive it the following Night (note that this is different from the Entrepreneur’s Transfer).
Advertise: Influence what abilities will be auctioned off in the marketplace the following Night. Described in Section IV.
Share: Select a single ability you possess; you may distribute some or all of your shots of this ability as you desire amongst your teammates for $51. This takes effect immediately, and they may use received shots this same Night.

Mafia Knowledge (FP): The Mafia (Left Hand) team is Guille2015, Phillammon, and MagnaofIllusion. You all received the same Role PM.

Mafia Communication (FP): You may speak with your partners in the Quicktopic here at any time.

Insider Information (FP): You know that there is another Mafia team, and that you win with them. You know that the town is not mountainous; there are town members who are not Entrepreneurs.

There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch: You do not possess a factional Night-kill. In order to kill, you must win the Night-kill auction.

Pulled Strings (FP, 1-shot): Once during the game, one member of your team may choose an ability that has not yet won an Advertising. It will win the current or next Advertising round, regardless of any money spent on other abilities. Advertising is described in Section IV.

Fakeclaim (P): The Entrepreneur Role PM is posted in the thread. If you give me specific game mechanics, I will write the relevant PM for you incorporating those elements with proper flavor and styling.

You win with the Mafia: You win when all the players alive have the Mafia win condition, and there is at least one player alive.

The free market is fine, but it’s so...inefficient. A shame, really, but from that insight you quickly realized that with the help of a few others who shared your views that this is a turning point, a time of opportunity. Control of the marketplace can lead to all of your dreams coming true; given such a reward, it’s obvious that you’ll do anything to eliminate the competition -- permanently.

You are a Mafia (Right Hand) Member.

Nest Egg: You start the game with $150.
Wage: At the end of every Day, you will receive $100.
Efficiency Bonus: You do not receive an efficiency bonus.
Mafia Bonus: At the end of every Day, $100 is split evenly amongst the living members of your team (any fractions are lost).

Money (P): Each Night, you may spend any or all of your money on the following activities:
Bid: Bid on abilities being auctioned off in the marketplace. Described in Section III.
Invest: The following Night, you will receive 140% (round down) of what you invested (note that this is different from the Entrepreneur’s investment rate).
Transfer: Choose another player. If that player is on your team, they will immediately receive 95% (round down) of what you transferred. Otherwise, they will receive it the following Night (note that this is different from the Entrepreneur’s Transfer).
Advertise: Influence what abilities will be auctioned off in the marketplace the following Night. Described in Section IV.
Share: Select a single ability you possess; you may distribute some or all of your shots of this ability as you desire amongst your teammates for $51. This takes effect immediately, and they may use received shots this same Night.

Mafia Knowledge (FP): The Mafia (Right Hand) team is GreyICE, Pitty, and Seanald. You all received the same Role PM.

Mafia Communication (FP): You may speak with your partners in the Quicktopic here at any time.

Insider Information (FP): You know that there is another Mafia team, and that you win with them. You know that the town is not mountainous; there are town members who are not Entrepreneurs.

There Ain’t No Such Thing As A Free Lunch: You do not possess a factional Night-kill. In order to kill, you must win the Night-kill auction.

Lockout (FP, 1-shot): Once during the game, one member of your team may choose a current auction. The auction will act as normal, but at the end of the Night it will be announced that no one has won the auction, and that the auction will re-occur during the next Night. All money bid on the auction will be refunded.

Fakeclaim (P): The Entrepreneur Role PM is posted in the thread. If you give me specific game mechanics, I will write the relevant PM for you incorporating those elements with proper flavor and styling.

You win with the Mafia: You win when all the players alive have the Mafia win condition, and there is at least one player alive.

You are a Mafia (Left Hand) Member, along with your partners [Partner names go here].

Nest Egg: You start the game with [Some amount >100].
Wage: At the end of every Day, you will receive [Given no time bonus, some value >50].
Mafia Bonus: At the end of every Day, [Some fixed amount probably, 25?].

I assume these numbers are all likely the same or very similar to the last game.

Insider Dealings: Any money you spend bidding on auctions that are listed in red is [Probably only half used or partially refunded]

This is the one I was most worried about. I assume money they spend on red auctions has a multiplier factor or that they won ties no matter what...I dunno. I don't think they have an insurmountable advantage, though.

Dirty Tricks ($$$): You have a number of dirty tricks at your disposal. Each Night, each member of your team may perform one of these (if desired); however, each Dirty Trick may only be performed once per Night. The first Dirty Trick is free; each subsequent use [some signifigant but not impossible amount]. Dirty Tricks are not treated as targeted abilities; they cannot be roleblocked, and will not appear on Tracker or Watcher reports.
•Wire Fraud: Name two players, a transferer and a transferee. Any money that the transferer would transfer to the transferee during this Night [are blocked and or given to you instead].
•Lockout: Name a target player and a current auction. Any bid made by the targeted player for that auction [will not count as a bid?].
•Countermeasures: Name a target player, a targeted ability name, and a target. If that player attempts to use that ability on that target during this same Night, [that action will fail and they will lose that action].

We're in agreement on Wire Fraud.
I think the text on Lockout is "will not count towards the auction and be drained from that player's account." However, note the Right Hand's role PM in the last game...
I think countermeasures is closer to roleblock+steal ability. All three of these abilities are there for the sake of punishing town coordination in the open--if I'd not been dumb and actually read how the second game went down pre-game, I would have put a lot more emphasis on neighborizer(my initial plan was to try to get as many hydras in a neighborhood as possible). Thankfully, Peregrine is like, town and half, so it's fine(game might actually be over if Peregrine is scum anyways).

Shell Game ($$$): At any point during the Night, you may [choose?] to transfer some or all usages of one of your abilities amongst your team as desired. They may be used by the recipients that same Night.

This appears to be a buffed version of the power from the last game. Likely has a small cost.

•Transfer: Choose another player. If that player is on your team, [there is no cost to transfer money to them]. Otherwise, [same as town role pm?, 80% goes to them probs].

They get 95% and non-teammates play by normal rules.

The other half of the setup speculation dance, no less town than Cabd's side.

LOADS E MONAY

VOTE: Klick

This post just felt town.

[Garuda]

I think that sort of heartfelt read-documentation and selling may work better when the player is personally not on entirely solid ground. It turns the effort into something more selfless and altruistic and for-the-sake-of-town, when it could otherwise look like (and be) an effort at consolidating power.

I have to admit that a small part of this is to impress Empire and prove that I'm a better hydra partner than Tammtrum

Still leaning scum. I guess my interaction is toned down because I sobered up? >_> Or maybe I'm just in evaluation mode as arguing accomplished absolutely nothing.

What do you think of them having paranoia of you and then putting you in their top 6 townreads? Also what did you think of my post on them?

[Garuda]

Unvote
Vote: VoidedMafia

Nacho knows why.

Can you tell me a story please? A story about how making a vote only one person will understand is a good idea.

I liked N's reaction to this.

hey nacho you scumfuck are you still here?

I missed this reachout before, but I like it now that I see it.

Ughbluh.

I'm really not okay with the people who have been posting a crapton. It's a great way for scum to
- look town in the early game,
- blow up the thread into 26 pages after what, 24 hours, so that people like me who can't be on all day fall behind and lurk, which makes them prime scum targets, and
- decrease the signal:noise ratio.

I've had a stern word with N, and I'm definitely got my eye on Lost Butterfly, morph the cat, and Pyrotechnics.

This was incredibly town. The hydra partner who is less comfortable with being scum ends up coming into the thread and launches an attack on LB, morph, and pyro (while N is still trolling/reaching out to me). It seems incredibly incredibly unlikely that anyone who isn't incredibly comfortable with their scum game would attack some of the highest hanging fruit in the game so blatantly.

I'm conflicted on Lost Butterfly, because a lot of what Mina has done seems scummy to me (that awful first post about getting investigation immunity, html tags, argument with Pyrotechnics) and a lot of what Faraday has done seems much better. But I've never played with Mina and I can't read Faraday since Gay Mafia II and, I think, Mafiastuck.

I liked this attack too!

I liked the way N pushed Hermy. He was very loud and "let's lynch the fuck out of this" in a way that I think he'd avoid as scum.

Tammy, you've been taking small digs at everyone including me all game. I'm glad I got you to finally take a stance, but it just really doesn't feel genuine. Where was I "trying to distract the conversation between morph and I regarding town working together"? That's not even something you actually care about, seeing as you're calling morph scum now.

Everyone's scum but you, Tammy.

I'm not even sure what you were trying to do with the Neighborizer thing. You had no end goal. It was just something for you to do to look busy yesterday and now that didn't work out for you you're trying to sweep it under the rug.

Ended up liking this too. It felt like a very genuine attack, as did Quil's immediately before this one.

Please don't fuck up quite possibly the only time we will be town together ever.

Please don't treat me like I'm stupid. This is the only thing you've said to me all game; that doesn't sit well.

I ended up liking this a lot! This is the point where N made a more obvious upgrading on the troll scumread on me to an actual scumread, which I think is something he's far less likely to do as scum because either he thinks I'm scum and we're probably gonna roll shit together or he thinks I'm town in which case I can't see him going "talk to me! talk to me!" since Nscum doesn't mind being ignored at all.

[Garuda]

I saw you posted it but didn't read it.

[Garuda]

I totally didn't! I implied that I was hauling ass to live up to the standard you set and you respond to that by not reading my fucking awesome wall. It's like you ripped my heart out of my chest and threw it on the ground

[Garuda]

Why is the deadline 15 hours? Didnt this start 3 days ago?

This was scummy as fuck because it sounded incredibly fake and he disappeared immediately after. This shows that he's focused more on looking town than he is on actually helping town get a lynch; he didn't ask where he was supposed to go, he didn't even look at the wagons and help town get closer to a lynch.

Read up to page 38, that Hermy wagon was bad for the build up but I guess it was necessary because of lol shortened deadline.

Now this is the "taking cred for a townflip" that looks incredibly shitty.

I advertised tracker last night.

i'll advertise tracker

advertised tracker

Don't like him claiming to have advertised tracker when someone else already did.

ProHawk - not hammering "obv town" after a) proclaiming obv town when person flipped and b) denouncing the hammer AFTER it was a deadline lynch. Your defense of her wasn't pointing out that she was obv town, rather null or not scummy based on inactivity. Huge difference there.
Upside Down - seriously almost nothing coming from this slot. Its like most of the early posts were posts for the sake of posting and looking active
Garuda - Something about the "I like this" list of Voided's posts. He just outlined all the irrelevant, non alignment proving things said by Voided at that point.
Nero - weird push on HaraKiri. Its like the main point of attack is "Sakura is scum for always sheeping Nacho"

This is the only thing I liked about this slot; the scumreads are fucking ridiculous. The problem is his reasoning are all sheeping shit/mildly hypocritical: I don't like him not liking ProHawk's denouncement of the Hermy lynch considering he did the same thing (and plenty of people pointed it out), the upside down scumread is calling upside down scum with reasoning in one of Quilford's posts (and completely ignores the other people who posted a lot early), the scumread on us is based on one post (that I think Muffin didn't like?), and Nero suspicion is also based on things Muffin was saying. It seriously, seriously sucks. There's also no conviction in any of these reads, and DoctorPepper usually has a fuckton of conviction as town.

Town:
LB
Pyro
Zmuffin
Zdnek
Mhork
morph

And yet nothing interesting in his townreads at all, which is yet another problem. The only one where he actually explains things is the LB gambit which was revoked later down the line. It sucks.

[Garuda]

the next 1.5 days.

I'll finish up before this deadline, then.

[Garuda]

Garuda's Top 6 Townreads:
morph the cat
Pyrotechnics
ProHawk
PeregrineV
upside down
Harakiri

Garuda's Top 5 Advertisements:
Neighborizer
Cop
Watcher
Bulletproof
Doctor

[Garuda]

Empire here, as of yesterday, been trying to catch up on the ridiculous amount of pages I've missed due to sickness since I last posted in this thread (which you can imagine is just a lot of fun). Nacho told me about The Plan(tm) last night when we talked on skype and I didn't find any of it objectionable when looking at it at first glance but I'll have more time to be thinking deeply about it today (well, aside from a block of time between 2PM-7PM where I won't be here). I'm *hoping* to be fully up to speed by the end of tonight and realposting by then.

[Garuda]

#428 Garuda: I'd rather you be mastubatory with your reads list. I want to watch your thought processes. Consider me the ceiling cat of your brain.

Keep reading. You'll be a happy man soon.

[Garuda]

Vote: Lost Butterfly

I liked Muffin's attack on LB quite a bit. His initial attack is down the similar path of upside down/prohawk, but he's the first one to actually pursue it. It's also a push that comes mid bald eagle, which was someone he could have pressured and could have broken a bit early game and there's no real reason to drop that in favor of a LB push that early.

i don't think the specifics of it were calculated, but i do think he could have planned feigning ignorance without thinking about the specifics. i think this is more likely than baldy genuinely being this dense. the 3 scum thing is the most blatant of these, but another example is, "omg scum started with more than $100?!?!" i mean, anyone with half a brain can figure out that there's something going on when there are bids of more than $100, and if he's town he should be wondering how the fuck that happened and thinking about how it happened, not saying what he said.

This push on eagle made sense when he explained it, although it still kind of creeps me out that he ended up pushing baldeagle for that long.

why are you still voting bald, btw?

This marks the start of the turnaround on the bald read, I think.

the fact that the nati half hasn't even attempted to buddy anyone yet, and is being rather reserved in his reads on nacho, ffery and myself after a few recently finished games, is a point in their favour, i think.

I liked this reasoning for Nat-town.

people who keep saying that prohawk not voting hermy is evidence he thought hermy was obvtown are missing the point entirely. the issue isn't what his read was, but how he came about that read (i mean, fuck, if hermy was so obvtown then WHY WAS PROHAWK THE ONLY ONE WHO THOUGHT IT WAS OBVIOUS FOR REASONS THAT MAKE NO SENSE?) and why he did nothing with that read if it was so fucking obvious to him (which is more interesting given he's now criticising mhork's weak D1 play).

This attack was good.

like... how fucking dumb are you?

@MOD,

Can we replace Nero with a doorknob?

Need something a bit more intelligent in that slot.

This frustration probably wasn't faked. I would expect scum-Muffin in this situation to continue ripping Nero apart as opposed to taking the "please replace Nero with a doorknob" angle.

mhork, zdenek, upsidedown, pieguyn
klick, LB, bald, garuda, PV

Why did you get a townread on pieguy there?
and why the hell was klick up so high

yeah tierce thought it was a strategic replace out, but i don't think it was. and the situation was a bit different to here.

What do you think of his replace out, self vote, retract replacement, then replace out? I have small niggles of paranoia that he was going to replace out anyways and decided to do it in as townie a way as possible.

and i'm surprised you left me asking the mod to replace nero with a doorknob out of that series of quotes. kind of disappointing, actually, since i think that was my best one.

Do you feel better now?

i mean, if we're comparing play to cash cabd, look at how different his approach to pushing AK in that game was. he was questioning people about it, asking why people disagreed with it, asking them to re-examine it, etc etc.

This is a good point from someone who doesn't know about hawkie getting lost in larges.

[Garuda]

i liked 1434/1435 a lot.

I gathered that. Why?

[Garuda]

the third tier of reads was people i think are likely town but don't have any super-strong feelings about them.

OK, why did you think he was likely town?

[Garuda]

Why do you find that post so suspicious? I mean, is it that unlikely that a townie would bid on investigation immune?

Nope, just the fact that you tried to use it in your first post to posture yourself as town. It looked fake, and I am pretty sure it was fake and you are scum.

This seems like townhawk conviction.

This is why voided is scum btw.

On a scale of 1-10?

I'll let ffery talk about her reasons but for me it's around a 6 or 7.

Sounds like you both are scum-reading him then. You not voting is making me worry.

Good paranoia.

Self-Votes make me cringe, especially the way it was done "on principle".

Voting while placing the responsibility on someone else for said vote.

'
I thought that Hawk's conviction about this reasoning was extremely townish. This was a reasoning that got him shit from pretty much everyone who suspects him, but it's a reasoning that he never comes close to backing down from. While reading Muffin's ISO, I noticed that Muffin talked about Prohawk's reasoning during the exchange with Nero, and out pops ProHawk defending himself again and opening the can of worms anew when buzz about it had mostly settled down.

You have a defeatist attitude. You are willing to let others dictate what is done. The "There wasn't much we could do" is a farce, and maybe if you would have taken a stand against lynching someone you felt was going to flip town, something could have been done to get an actual scum-lynch. This is why I said if you are town, you are handing the game on a silver platter.

This pep talk strikes me as pretty townish because it strikes me as Hawk attempting to herd a bit, make sure that something like yesterday's fiasco doesn't happen again.

But on another note, your question had/has me baffled. My reasons may make no sense to you, but they are logical, and I do hope when this is all over you reflect on what happened/how it happened, because it was accurate. My working hypothesis, however is that it was heavily scum-driven who made the wagon look appealing.

I liked this too.

#1283 and #1284 seemed pretty awesome as well.

[Garuda]

Ohh, a wagon on me led by my scum read. Predictable.

this seems a kind of weird reaction for scum in this postion to me. i.e. he's about to get fucking quicklynched so he...baits people (which makes them less likely to unvote?). i've never played with doctorpepper but is he really likely to fake this type of thing as scum?

I expected the town response to be an incredible amount of flail. He usually has conviction in pretty much everything he says and his reaction was very meh, sounded resigned.

[Garuda]

Why would he put something out there as scum but not as town?

[Garuda]

I dont even understand a lot of Bert's play so far. Its just "sheep X", no "Sheep Y". X is scum, no Y is scum.

"Im sheeping Cait Sith" "No wei, Jiffy's right"

"SD is scum" "SD is a mislynch."

CONFUSING AS FUCK

I actually dont see CS scum. How is this?

BTW thanks for hammering us early. I wonder why no one gave Bert any shit for that. Maybe I was V/LA bert so I didnt have anything to say, because I didnt have a chance to.

GG. good luck town

DP

This was him getting quicklynched in Dixon Hill. A bit of complaining for the bad lynch, a bit of conviction. I can't see one of his scumreads pushing him and getting him lynched and him not freaking out more than what he did.

[Garuda]

Er, I know you gave thoughts on them but given most of your reads lists so far boil down to "has some good posts" where do they fall in the grand scheme of things?

I want to talk to empire about klick, but he feels scummy right now. Nero is also scummy, but he's probably the weakest of my scumreads at the moment.

[Garuda]

Reading JacobSavage is usually a crapshoot, though. Either he does something that looks pretty fucking townie one time or he does absolutely nothing.

[Garuda]

@Lost Butterfly:
I don't think you're town. I think you're an asshole. And your assholeness is getting in the way of me trying to figure out your alignment. Usually when I lynch an asshole, he flips town, but you seem like the kind of guy who's an asshole town or scum. So I'm gonna wait to see what you do while I pursue other people. Like Seanald who I remember being fairly transparent as scum.

Mhork's posting was boring as shit until about here, where he started seeming decently town.

I'm not scum. Also look at where the suspicion was when the deadline thing was popped. If I were scum, why on earth would I suddenly put a deadline hounding down especially with Lost Butterfly hounding me like he's got a guilty. The alternative is that the other scum team is trying to get me lynched, but since this is semi-multiball that implies that they want Lost Butterfly/BBMolla to get me strung up today. If they thought I were a possible scum ally, why would they do that? More likely they see an easy mislynch opportunity because Butterfly is tunneling me into oblivion.

I didn't like the reasoning he used here very much, but at least he spoke it with conviction. Another point to this being more likely to be coming from town is that it's probably wrong (as in Mhork wagon was formed after deadline was submitted), and I think scum would pull something like this in an attempt to clear themselves, but it's still not good.

I have Medium x3. I won it for $3 which came as a shock to me as I put down $20, though I guess that I overestimated its usefulness due to not completely reading it.
I also bid $50 on Cop 'cause I figured it would be a strong bid, which it wasn't, and I bid $30 on Gravedigger 'cause I thought it sounded cool. My current balance is $89.

Claim is good, though. The weirdness of it all felt decently town.

Garuda, do you think it's possible whomever put money towards medium was scum trying to flood the market with useless junk?

Conspiracy theory, town.

And I have been wavering with my read on you guys. It's tough. On one hand I get blinded when people are dicks to me. However as I'm seeing more of your posting, the stuff not directed towards being a dick to me is looking better.

I'm not sure I like this that much. The only reason he has for calling LB scummy here is because they're being dicks to him, but he acknowledges that he's usually blinded by things like that and yet is still "wavering". Seemed like unnecessary fencesitting to me.

...does anyone read my posts? Zdenek advertised Medium and put no money towards it. I speculated that it could be because he was trying to flood the market with useless shit (which Medium really is now that I've read it). I've mentioned that a couple times now.

I liked the push based on his conspiracy theory, but I don't understand why Love Potion/Vote Freezer weren't regarded as "useless shit".

Uh... I guess I'm considering voting Hermy, though I don't really like how the wagon came out of nowhere >.<

More thoughts tomorrow after I sleep and whatnot.

Asks for a case on the Hermy wagon, mentions that he feels uncomfortable with it... never follows up on it. Ever.

I mean I figured he'd probably flip town, but he also was an easy target with definite scum on the wagon.

Why didn't you mention that while Hermy was being lynched?

LB feels townie because the other head stopped being a dick and starting making sense to me. Pyro is super townie to me for the same reasons as before. Upside gives some decent vibes, though I'm not as solid here. Voideds posts make sense to me and they sound pretty townie. I don't understand where all the hatred is coming from. You seem to legitimately be hunting and trying to discern alignment, which is good. And Garuda's reads tended to line up with mine.

All strong players are town? I also don't like that his reasoning for us being town was that our reads lined up with each other when we pushed the Hermy wagon pretty strongly and he thought she would flip town.

Well I haven't rolled scum since my minihiatus I don't think, and the couple scum games are part of the reason for the minihiatus. Unfortunately you can't meta my scum game until I get scum again.

But this isn't my scum game. If I were scum, I'd just coast by lurking and promising vague catch up posts.

PEDIT:
._.
Well this'll prolly be my last post for the night anyway.

I liked this, felt genuine, like he believes his scumgame is absolutely horrible and he is playing a level above it that he could not fake and is trying to express that to everyone else.

Yo, powers that be. Can we please lynch Nero first? I'm like, 78% sure he'll flip scum. If he doesn't, I'll shut up and listen more to you guys. Maybe I'll even read all your posts. But if Nero survives this day, he'll just coast the rest of the way.

Conviction feels real.

[Garuda]

I have both the investigation immunity and the hitman abilities, bitches.

I liked this and the "bitches" part sold me fantastically.

Can you say why you think the strong players are all town? I'm inclined to think that's not the case because of no one dying last night.

I liked this, but I don't like that he doesn't glance into any of the strong players at all.

zMuff is probably scum.

...but this clears that up.

Don't like how absolutely disconnected he is from the game, he hasn't done shit except get hitman and investigative immune.

[Garuda]

until I feel slightly cock

[Garuda]

she's just with me because she wants me to be her beard, no one could actually love me

[Garuda]

Er, I know you gave thoughts on them but given most of your reads lists so far boil down to "has some good posts" where do they fall in the grand scheme of things?

I want to talk to empire about klick, but he feels scummy right no

w. Nero is also scummy, but he's probably the weakest of my scumreads at the moment.

It was weird as hell.

[Garuda]

The "fuck you guys, just lynch me" part felt pretty town. He gets more emotional when people shit on him, so the fact that he melted down at that point made sense and seemed to be coming from town more than scum. The replace out after was the weird part.

[Garuda]

We only started with $100. All of those items went for over $100.

Ah, scum gets more money? Lame.

This looks kind of weird, but I could see baldeagle doing something like that.

also there's an incredible amount of iioa and fluff in all of baldy's posts, compared to zero actual content.

Oh, sorry for not analyzing everyone's post in the first hour of the game.

The butterfly wagon needs more motivation, let me convince you all. Brb.

I agree w/morph that the assertiveness is more likely coming from town eagle than scum eagle.

VOTE: Pyrotechnics

Anyone with the following abilities should claim right away: Deadline, Hitman, Investigative Immune, Nightkill. I'd want Extra Vote and Vote Freezer to claim, too.

We got Investigation Immune! I can't believe it was so cheap. We even bid $80 on it to keep it out of scum's hands.

Got an ability that helps scum (aka you?) Nice job! Congrats!

We only started with $100. All of those items went for over $100.

Ah, scum gets more money? Lame.

So you considered bidding $101 on any of those abilities? Also, what made you decide to bid on Vote Freezer in particular? Did you bid more than $11 on it?

Garuda and upside down, enlighten me with the thought process behind sharing with the town that you <i>didn't</i> get roles. Also, Empire, why do you want <i>neighbourizer</i> in particular to claim?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH STOP NINJA-ING ME.

Fixed broken quote tag.

Just a question on the neighborzier claim thing.

Also, I think everyone should claim if they advertised or what they advertised on. Not the actual amount.

More claming.

OMIGOD, STOP NINJAING ME.

@Prohawk: Interesting.

Why do you find that post so suspicious? I mean, is it

that

unlikely that a townie would bid on investigation immune?

1) Honestly, Faraday and I have been talking with Magua for the past couple of days in a hydra QT, but I'm not sure that's a "QT" slip so much as me being incompetent at formatting quotes. I posted BBcode tags in the hydra QT, too.

2) @Muffin: that question was a crosspost, and I didn't see baldeagle had actually answered.

Just some question answered, and blah blah.

We only started with $100. All of those items went for over $100.

Ah, scum gets more money? Lame.

So you considered bidding $101 on any of those abilities? Also, what made you decide to bid on Vote Freezer in particular? Did you bid more than $11 on it?

Garuda and upside down, enlighten me with the thought process behind sharing with the town that you <i>didn't</i> get roles. Also, Empire, why do you want <i>neighbourizer</i> in particular to claim?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH STOP NINJA-ING ME.

VOTE: Lost Butterfly

One: You're responding to me when you should be asking baldeagle about vote freezer.

Two: I bid $100 on neighborizer as that's all I have.

Three: Garuda hasn't posted yet.

Four: Empire is part of Garuda. I'm the one who wants the neighborizer to claim. It should be pretty self-explanatory. The scum teams can win together. They have the cop role. Once they find each other, they can communicate through a neighborhood. (This is actually pretty certain. Last game it cost me over $500 to win the neighborizer from scum who had won cop and found the other team.) So, the neighborizer needs to claim so that we can evaluate them and keep track of the neighborhood if need be. Last game we were lucky and town won neighborizer both times and we used it really effectively, and we made public who won the neighborizer.

...oh.

Um...I...

...actually...thought your first post...was Garuda.

._______________________________.

Two mistakes now? You QT slipped (you must have been posting a crap load of stuff) and now you had some misinformation.

GODDAMN FUCKING QUOTE TAGS.

Oh no! The evil quote tags have attacked!

Why do you find that post so suspicious? I mean, is it that unlikely that a townie would bid on investigation immune?

not directed at me, but while i don't find going for investigation immunity suspicious, i do think that if scum really wanted it, $80 wouldn't be enough to stop them from getting it. and i think you would know this. you never answered upside down's question about why you thought $80 would be enough to stop scum getting it.

If you really wanted to stop scum from getting it, you would throw all of your money on it, not just some. Were you only able to bid $80 because you used your other $20 to help your scumbuddies?

Well, gee. I don't know. I guess I just thought $100 was too much to spend on an ability that was useless to me! And I wanted to save some extra money in the long term. We did consider going for $100, but then settled for $80. I'm not really sure what you think the difference between claiming $80 and $100 is. ^_^

I have been in a hydra before, but we don't talk a whole lot.

I talk A LOT with Faraday, but mostly on AIM. But for this game, I've been asking Magua five zillion questions about every single role interaction in the hydra QT.

If you really wanted to stop scum from getting it, you would throw all of your money on it, not just some. Were you only able to bid $80 because you used your other $20 to help your scumbuddies?

Also, like Pyro said, if you had lots of questions about the role interaction claims, then why are you asking for a reason on why neighborizer should claim?

VOTE: Voidedmafia

HAIIII to you too!

Why did you advertise Extra Vote in particular? Also, thoughts on baldeagle's most recent posts?

Hey, Muffin, what's your current read on baldeagle?

Is it just me or he's trying to ask a bunch of people for my read on me in hopes of them calling me scum so the wagon goes off of him?

Fixed broken quote tag.

And sticking his neck out this incredibly far so early in the game felt genuine as hell.

I wasn't calling it fluff, I was saying it had no meaning.

No. You are getting lynched today.

Love the conviction.

I agree. Mhork's view on LB seemed forced.

And the fact that the conviction translates to scumhunting for his buddies also seemed good and incredibly ballsy coming from eagle-scum, especially since this was when people started to call them town.

Tbh, I'm starting to believe that Voided is just WKing LB, so when we lynch LB, he flips town and Voided gets some towncred. I have past experiences with scum WKing me, so there's that. If anyone wants to see the game where there was a whole bunch of WKing going on by scum (I was town in that game and I lost). It's Newbie 1414 on my wiki.

This felt genuine.

The shift in and of itself is sudden as hell, though, which is kind of strange since Voided has quite the wagon on him at that time and he goes from "LBscumLBscumLBscum" to "LBtownLBtownLBtown" because someone had an odd defense of them.

Well, if we quicklynch Klick in less than 18 hours, then we get $50 as a bonus along with the daily $50. So every town gets $100. Which is perfectly fine with me, because I think Klick is acting pretty scummy and the other good thing is that Voided won't be able to get $100 after today!

The excitement about quicklynching for monies was town in the way's Harakiri's was.

[Garuda]

And guess who the final read is?

[Garuda]

Spoiler: Magua, spoilered because it's so fucking long

Lol this is easy mode.

As scum, I like framing games as easier than they already are as sort of a rhetorical point; when you're going "yeah this game is easy, vote X" people are more likely to follow you because they believe you have a better handle of things at that point. I don't know why he would be having an easy time with it as town considering he's left behind and being lazy as fuck.

I've never spent any money, ever.

VOTE: VoidedMafia

Claim sucks.

ProHawk's answer is pretty poor. He pretty clearly didn't think Hermy was obvious town.

This is actually just wrong and it seemed like Klick was jumping on the Prohawk hate bandwagon.

I think it's better than letting my slot get quicklynched for no apparent reason and would help my alignment in any case.

This

reeked

of tactical replacement.

Last post in here. But that's not actually the only reason I'm requesting reason, just part of it. I really don't have time to continue playing this game successfully, and I saw that as a way to make the game

better

, not worse. But, since everyone's throwing a pissy fit over it:

Magua, I retract my replacement request

---

VOTE: Klick

Enjoy your money.

I thought this was pretty fucking town. He goes to replace out, gets shit on in thread, then comes back in and gives everyone the middle finger. As scum, I'm not sure how he'd react, but I don't think he'd react like this.

Morph... I am having the exact same thoughts as I have in previously, just on a much shorter scale due to the lack of areas that I've been able to read in detail and the size of the game. I've also come to find that when I make the observations that I usually make,

I don't get listened to.

you want to know who's incredibly obvious town in this game? Mhork. Pyro. pie. Nero. LB. ProHawk. All six of them are very likely town to me, but the reasoning I use for about four of those is so different from the "normal" version of scum hunting that I've come to get ignored when I try. So, I quit.

I liked this frustration, it felt very genuine.

But then... he disappears? Maybe he didn't want to get peer pressured into staying again, but I felt when people started backing off and giving him room he should have done something with it, followed up somehow,

anything

. But he just disappears like he just didn't have time and was going to replace out no matter what but it makes no sense that the trigger for him replacing out was him being quicklynched, or why that was of a particular bother to him when he was lurking/apathetic/not trying to sell anything to anyone anyways.

tl;dr I'm not sure what to feel about him except that he's a v good mod

[Garuda]

Gold Plated Townreads:
1. VoidedMafia
2. PeregrineV
8. Pyrotechnics (a hydra of Syryana and Tammy)
9. morph the cat (a hydra of Cabd and fferyllt)
11. Ghostly Penguin (a hydra of Ghostlin and penguin_alien) (replaces Banakai)
12. Harakiri (a hydra of Natirasha and Sakura Hana)
13. uʍop ǝpısdn (a hydra of N and Quilford)
16. ProHawk

MOST LEANING TOWNREADS:
4. Seanald
5. pieguyn (replaces guille2015)
6. Lost Butterfly (a hydra of Faraday and Mina)
10. BBmolla
19. 1baldeagle1

LEFTOVERS:
3. Nero Cain
14. zMuffinMan
17. Lord Mhork
18. Zdenek
20. DoctorPepper
21. JacobSavage (replaces Klick)

This is pretty much where I stand at the moment.

[Garuda]

No, I think everyone is town.

[Garuda]

BALL SO HARD MOTHERFUCKERS WANNA FINE ME

Uh, we transferred $197 to PeregrineV. Are we claiming our other actions now or no?

[Garuda]

Vote: KingdomAces

[Garuda]

Hey Garuda, there's something I think we need to put some attention on today.

What?

Also, do we claim our other actions or no? (kinda confused since I've seen at least one person do it)

[Garuda]

I just got caught up in the thread after having been stuck in perpetual catch up mode so bear with me a bit here but it's pretty solid.

[Garuda]

Oh, now I see what you're getting at. Just from the sheer amount of money he's getting? I'll come back with a full meta report on him when I get some more time (going out tonight) then if we want to be absolutely sure.

[Garuda]

By the way, something that also needs to be talked about, but since we lost a member of The Big Six we have to decide whether we want to keep it down to 5 or to add a new member to receive money. If we're opting for the former, we need to be even more sure on those 5 given that the money pool is shrinking (this might be the best solution frankly).

[Garuda]

I'm already starting to get bored and I'm still collecting data for the Peregrine meta report so I'll go through some random ISOs when I feel like it I guess.

The last 40 or so pages before the end of Day are kind of a blur to me but I vaguely remember someone asking this slot what we thought about Klick's replace out. This is what I told Nacho when we talked about it briefly.

Morph... I am having the exact same thoughts as I have in previously, just on a much shorter scale due to the lack of areas that I've been able to read in detail and the size of the game. I've also come to find that when I make the observations that I usually make,

I don't get listened to.

you want to know who's incredibly obvious town in this game? Mhork. Pyro. pie. Nero. LB. ProHawk. All six of them are very likely town to me, but the reasoning I use for about four of those is so different from the "normal" version of scum hunting that I've come to get ignored when I try. So, I quit.

Feeling dismayed about people generally not listening to your reads because your scumhunting is unconventional or weird is something that I find tends to come from town way more often. I think it ties into the idea that town have a vested interest in getting their suspects lynched and feel frustrated when other people do not help them do that. (I used to see this a lot in chat mafia and I think this translates over fairly well.)
I also vaguely remember that Klick tends to get emotional when people act dismissive towards him.
The actual act of replacing out is null in that I think Klick would replace out if he feels like he's hindering his scum team but combined with all the other stuff, I think it's town.

Nacho wasn't as strong about it as I was but I think that's mainly due to giving Klick's scum game way too much credit (his scum game is good but not THAT good).

Jacob's posts are irritatingly null as usual (well as they mostly are, he can be obvtown when he wants to be - see NY 160).

[Garuda]

Is it sad that on day two this is all you have to go on on zdenek?

Very very sad.

Have you done everyone in the game? I feel like this is the only one where your conclusion is actually scum.

I want to see the best in people so I usually townread excessively. I had a DoctorPepper-scum conclusion though! There was no good to see in him at all.

Idk, seems like the two cancel each other out.

What do you mean?

every wagon that lead to a lynch

All two of them. Wow, you're right. Such deep insight.

And one of them was on scum...?

Hey Garuda, there's something I think we need to put some attention on today.

What?

How solid is your Peregrine read?

I feel pretty damn confident in mine.

Vote: KingdomAces

Out of curiosity, is this because of the DP flip first and foremost? I may be forgetting your read on them before, but wasn't it at least a not-scum read?

We liked investigation immune, hitman, and bitches.
We didn't really like anything else.

By the way, something that also needs to be talked about, but since we lost a member of The Big Six we have to decide whether we want to keep it down to 5 or to add a new member to receive money. If we're opting for the former, we need to be even more sure on those 5 given that the money pool is shrinking (this might be the best solution frankly).

We should at the very least remove DP's votes and get them from those that are still waiting to be online at the same time as their hydra buddy and so have been unable to discuss them.

Hmm?

He claimed to use it on Pyro, and you seem to believe him, but if you think he's scum, do you think he ACTUALLY mediumed Tammy when he could/would medium DrPepper?

I could see that happening, sure. If he claimed he has medium, he has to use it like he would as town.

So you'd like to explain why it is a bad idea to confirm that zdenek got two pro-scum igems like he claimed he did, ffery?

If zde/aces is town, we can be sure that scum don't have two abilities that could potentially screw us over later on, either through a wasted cop use or because a kill goes through a doc/bg protect, and while its unlikely that he'll ever get to buy nk for most/all of the game (i certainly don't have enough of a townread on them for that yet), he either permanently keeps them out of scum's hands if he stays alive, or forces them to waste an nk just to rob his grave the next night for those two abilities.

You also could have just asked the replacement to claim.

[Garuda]

I'm out and about for a weekend of Halloween parties so there won't be much from me today and I imagine Nacho's doing the same. Full PV meta report as soon as time opens up (most likely tomorrow hopefully).

[Garuda]

I had a DoctorPepper-scum conclusion though! There was no good to see in him at all.

so now what? You had two scumreads - one flipped scum (well done on that congrats etc) but your hydra partner is telling you the other is town so you got nothin'

3. Nero Cain
14. zMuffinMan
17. Lord Mhork
18. Zdenek
20. DoctorPepper
21. JacobSavage (replaces Klick)

I got KingdomAces scum, Mhork scum is *probably* a shitty choice, but it turns out it's sometimes easy to look really really town when you're just repeating everything confirmed town is saying. I'm leaving Klick to sort the JacobSavage slot, and Nero Cain seems like a much better vote than Muffin.

smth like this can only help town, and Pyro is flipped town, so I don't get this at all. this screams like a gambit to get towncred for Mhork. I seriously can't think of any logical reason Pyro would be mad for that reason.

They confirmed that they were talking through him, if that changes things at all. Tammy gave answers to the SUPER SECRET QUESTIONS, so unless there are some seriously amazing shenanigans, it's probably Pyro.

[Garuda]

Prod dodge, catching up in here after sleep.

[Garuda]

I AM BACK AND READY TO OWN
ARE YOU READY?
ARE YOU READY FOR THIS???

[Garuda]

Wow, that actually really blows :<

I don't think there have been too many pages since my last post so this shouldn't take too long.

[Garuda]

Re: Ghostlin's #2312 - what about the possibility of only having a group of scumreads transfer money to the townreads? I know it doesn't alleviate the 'what if' problem of what happens if one of the major townreads is scum but the potential damage won't be anywhere near as extensive (this is just about the best compromise I can come up with in my hangover and if it's been mentioned after this post, ignore me.)

[Garuda]

SUDDEN PANG OF HYDRA DISSONANCE BECAUSE NACHO ISN'T AROUND TO TELL ME I'M BAD AT MAFIA

Every time I want to believe Nacho's Voided townread, I read shit like his entire page 97 posting and I just want to noose him so fucking badly.
I guess it might be a posting style thing? I just fucking despise the way he talks to baldeagle (the early part of #2414 is what I mean -- it's like he's trying to talk baldeagle out of his read which is really weird considering Voided scumreads him) and I still can't shake the feeling I had early D1 where it just seems like his entire approach to this game is from the mindset of scum trying to scumhunt the other team.

[Garuda]

Does anyone that played marketplace 1/2 remember if there were scum-to-scum crumbs in the prior games?

I don't *think* either team tried to crumb stuff like that in the last game but I'll have to double check (my slot died N1 and I didn't pay THAT close attention to the game after I died).

I find Garuda's comments on Dr. Pepper in 1306 strange. At this point he seemed not all that much different from Guille/Bankai, but he specifically commented about DP and none of the other near lurkers. In the post after that he calls Seanald a second tier townread with absolutely no explanation, when he'd done nothing even remotely town at that point.

Uh oh, looks like someone isn't actually reading this slot's posts.

P-edit: I don't know, the only time I've seen his scum game was in that Shadows and Lights game that just finished (I wasn't in the game but correctly read him as scum from the little of it I read).

[Garuda]

More hydra dissonance: I don't think Nero Cain is scum.

Hmmm.

[Garuda]

is this out of fear that he's going to downgrade you to his null/scum pile, or do you really think nero is town?

Um, there are many things I fear in the world of mafia; Nero Cain is just about the last thing that would ever make that list.

Realtalk, though, I do actually think Nero is town based on what I know of his meta. As town, he tends to be a lot more abrasive / confrontational in his interactions with other people and he's also a lot more egocentric (posts like #696 are what I'm talking about). From what I remember seeing in his scum games, he tends to tone that down a lot and is just plain nowhere near as aggressive. I'm definitely seeing a lot more of the former in this game.

[Garuda]

I've been trying to get him to snap out of this stupid fixation on me since early/mid-D2 simply because of how ridiculous it is.

This is precisely what bothers me. You think the dude is scum so who cares if he "snaps out of it" or not?
I just plain don't see scum communicate with their scumreads the way that you have been with baldeagle here. Obviously town communicate with their scumreads for a variety of reasons (to gain confidence in the read, to push a lynch on said player, etc.) but from memory I don't think I have ever seen a townie try and talk a scumread out of a push on them - the usual typical townie reaction is to not give a shit.

Also, I guess I just get flashbacks from when you were doing this shit with Fate in Shadows and Lights (though admittedly I haven't checked if you do this kind of stuff as town and I don't remember your posts from Black Flag or Marketplace II *that* well).

[Garuda]

This is the list. These are ffery thoughts, though I don't think Cabd's thoughts differ much at this point based on our weekend discussions. We haven't formally gone through our reads, though, so there could be a surprise lurking somewhere.

Lost Butterfly - it's kinda freaked me out that faraday has been so absent, but based on reading along with the game he's modding, his availability really is this limited. I have no experience playing with Mina and I hear her scum game is very good. So, despite some amazingly insightful and useful analysis of the bids and advertisements, I worry.

Pie - When he entered the game, my experience with his play was precisely zip. He seems to play a really transparent game, with a fair amount of aggressive questioning. His catch up post read town as fuck. Still think he's town.

Peregrine - I'm basically going with Shaheed's law. if he's scum, town has already lost, so I'm assuming he's town and the efforts we're putting into the game aren't wasted on a foregone conclusion. I probably won't back off this position, but, Cabd and I plan to do some meta analysis well before this game day ends.

upside down - The town read has gotten stale. I haven't played with Quilford before, and my game with N, he was scum. This is another read I don't feel all that qualified to call definitive.

I'm semi-lumping Garuda into this list because even though they aren't in the group that's having funds funneled their direction, they've had a disproportionate impact on my reads and votes. Which is par for the course, even when I have trouble keeping my nacho-read in sharp focus all game day. And that's where I'm at. When he's posting, I follow his logic and observations, and even if I disagree, I can clearly see how he arrives at his reads. I really hate the Hermy lynch though, looking back on it. I asked an open-ended question about her first game, hoping to draw out the lylo self-vote and to at least have a sense if there was a meta basis for the read, or if it was entirely due to her posts in this game. I didn't really get an answer from Nacho. But, time was way short by then and we wound up voting her too. With left hand and right hand scum subteams, the fact that he was a strong and early proponent of the Dr Pepper lynch isn't as strong a town point as it otherwise would be.

Basically, the level of activity on the part of a lot of players since day 3 started, including the five above, has turned some of my reads into mush. I'm glad that we're not in a mad rush like the previous 2 Days, though. I want some time for thought, review, and research.

Faraday being absent from the game is actually not that big of a deal for me considering he prefers scum (we're talking about a former Don Corleone winner and a guy who is just generally very proud of his scum game). If anything, I think a scum PM would give him more drive - even when he felt demotivated as scum in Mafiastuck, he was still very active the entire time he was alive and was consistently on top of the game.
Pieguyn is someone I'll have to look over again as I feel like I might be underestimating his game but I liked what I saw from D2.
I still have to do my meta report on Peregrine but I still think he's town, probably the one read on this list that's budged the least.
As far as upside down goes, I can't read N worth a damn and Quilford's absence from the game bugs me.
I'm sad that I'm not at the forefront of your minds.

[Garuda]

I have a hell of a lot more experience reading Nacho than I do you. If I had to nail a read on you, I'd worry a lot more about Garuda.

Well, seeing as Nacho's gonna be MIA in this thread until he gets steady computer access, you're gonna have to deal with me for a while so SUCK IT UP BROS.

(In all honesty, I think the way I've played this game is completely totally different from how I'd approach any game as scum but whatever this argument's unlikely to convince you.)

[Garuda]

Oh yeah, almost forgot:

Mhork, can you ask Tammy to explain her Molla townread for me please? I have some of my own markers for him and I'm just not seeing them in this game and that bugs me too.

[Garuda]

I know you like to bash your scum game, but what do you think you would have done differently, Empire? (Don't say, "I wouldn't have even posted!")

The short version is that I'd have been a lot more careful in my posting / interactions with people.

[Garuda]

To Garuda: molla is town because his posts feel real. The frustration of someone wanting to drop out of a game just turning into trading money to six guys felt real. Also saying he could have made up reads as scum and asking Lost Butterfly if he was reading him as town felt real.

Well, here's the thing: in other games, I've read molla based on his attitude in his interactions with people. The short version for me is that as scum, he tends to focus more on appeasing others whereas he's a lot more sarcastic / abrasive as town (admittedly, this meta is a bit ancient and from offsite, but this is a large part of the reason Regfan and I correctly read him as town in the last game, dayvig aside).
Posts like #81-#82 felt like a weak imitation of his town meta (he's surely self-aware enough to realize that he'd need to do some lolreaction thing as scum). It just felt limp, like there was no actual drive / passion behind it at all and that he was just going through the motions there.
In fact, his entire interaction with Mina felt like he was trying to appease her which just bugs the shit out of me as that's what I remember of his scum game.

I didn't think too much about his frustration with the transfer plan at the time (probably lost in the haze when I was trying to keep up with the game) but I could easily see that reaction coming from demotivated scum, too.

Basically, I just don't really know. From what little we talked about molla in particular (and from what I remember), Nacho had him as town but I'm personally not really comfortable with that.

[Garuda]

I'm kind of annoyed at the global absence of people (yeah yeah I know, pot kettle black) in this game. I don't have the time tonight, but I'm going to go ISO deepreading tomorrow and seeing where that takes me. And I still haven't forgotten about the Peregrine meta report so that's on my to do list too.

[Garuda]

You guys are a cute cat and I'm a big fan of Steely Dan and all but my heart is empty and needs a lot more love than you can possibly give.
I will let you sit on my lap though.

Also, note: do Harakiri first tomorrow (another slot I'm very conflicted on).

[Garuda]

She says this mitigates the damage more of scum being in the town bloc. She also thinks there should be a designation of who goes for what.

I personally think that we should just sort out the people in the town block better. What I hoped would end up happening today is Empire checking my work and solidifying my reads and then being able to get today's lynch + tomorrow's quicklynch set into stone, but me only having 8 pages to catch up on tells me that that sure as hell won't end up being the case.

#2293 feels pretty good to me right now. Although I would be happy if someone in the Morph or Garuda hydra could inform me on whether they can read Jacob or not because Jacob should be an easy person to read but I just feel I don't know how.

I find Garuda's comments on Dr. Pepper in 1306 strange. At this point he seemed not all that much different from Guille/Bankai, but he specifically commented about DP and none of the other near lurkers.

DoctorPepper checked into thread, noticed that there were 15 hours left before the deadline and then completely disappeared. That was weird as fuck to me.

If this were a bastard game I'd call N scum and Quilford town, especially with N pressing how many times N says that Quilford is obvtown, but it isn't so I'll just go with town on that slot.

What's so town about Quilford?

Followed the plan; rolled 3.

What's the amount of money you sent?

For example, Seanald's point that "scum like posting when something big happens" (actually, the opposite tends to be more true on average) was silly, and what was worse was the way it was framed came off as though he was validating that as a reason to suspect us.

Seanald-scum goes after low-hanging fruit for literally no reason. Seanald-town has the tendency to go after random people for reasoning that's generally hard to connect with, but him going strongly after power players is reassuring regardless of what reasoning he ends up using.

Also, IIRC, some of the positions of reads on their lists didn't seem to quite follow from all the positive things they said in the rereads. I'm focusing on the us stuff because I'm a narcissist, my body thinks it's 5:30 AM, and it's what sticks out in my mind in such a huge thread, but I didn't like that he'd basically called most of our posts super-town but then moved us a tier lower for a couple of throwaway sentences.

I've had a tendency lately to make towncases on the majority of the playerlist and then drop towncases that I don't feel as comfortable with. It's a more recent approach, but I like it quite a bit. I have a tendency to townread people too easily, and then when I get halfway down the playerlist I notice that I have too many townreads, and start looking for reasons to find people as scummy.

Either way, he can only be RH scum.

Why is that?

SUDDEN PANG OF HYDRA DISSONANCE BECAUSE NACHO ISN'T AROUND TO TELL ME I'M BAD AT MAFIA

Every time I want to believe Nacho's Voided townread, I read shit like his entire page 97 posting and I just want to noose him so fucking badly.
I guess it might be a posting style thing? I just fucking despise the way he talks to baldeagle (the early part of #2414 is what I mean -- it's like he's trying to talk baldeagle out of his read which is really weird considering Voided scumreads him) and I still can't shake the feeling I had early D1 where it just seems like his entire approach to this game is from the mindset of scum trying to scumhunt the other team.

The clincher is the genuineness, which I've glanced through his other games for. Look in Shadows and Lights, look in Achievement Unlocked and do your goddamn meta report and then tell me he's scum.

Also, note: do Harakiri first tomorrow (another slot I'm very conflicted on).

[Garuda]

I'm feeling pretty zen today after a bad day of job searching yesterday so let's get to work some ISOs starting with Harakiri.

In general, I like the fact that Natirasha was putting Sakura Hana at the forefront of their hydra on D1. Natirasha seems like a stronger scum player than Sakura, especially given the roster, so I feel as though they'd have taken the opposite approach as scum.

Not since the day started. Mostly my fault-Sakura's been posting in the QT. Weekends are hard for me sometimes. Zdenek isn't in the game, I assume you mean nacho/Empire. But those three are the three I know the best and I feel my current role is to resolve to myself that I could trust them.

I know from our experience together in The Game That Shan't Be Mentioned that Natirasha tends to view himself as a weak scumhunter and is much more willing to resign himself and let others take the lead on that front. To that end, this post definitely reminds me of Natirasha's town game.

At the same token, though, I do also know Natirasha's big on mechanics / setup speculation and it was very disappointing to see so little from him on that front on D1.

The frustration in #918 reads very genuine to me. I tend to view people who react very personally to suspicion in a positive way.
"I'm not having as much fun here as I usually do in games'' (#1098) is always a good sign.

Hmm actually reading over this ISO again makes me feel way better about the slot than I did before.

[Garuda]

Cabd / ffery: I'm heading out to dinner so I'll be back in a couple of hours (just realized how little time there's left in this Day phase). Will you guys be around? Want your input on the stuff I'm gonna be posting.

Ghostly Penguin and Seanald are next.

[Garuda]

Busy weekend, will have to catch up on Sunday.

[Garuda]

I'M HERE

Give me some time to do the Seanald / Ghostly Penguin ISOs as well as draft up the PV report.

[Garuda]

Does anyone think Kingdom is town and if so why?

zdenek

that's about it, really

Still?

Um...thank you, Nacho?

You're welcome!

I don't think he produces much original stuff in terms of scumhunting as well,

I don't think this is true.

Right now other lynches I could do are ProHawk

Why do you find ProHawk scummy?

So I'm starting to get this scum read on KingdomAces. Anyone else feeling that?

Yes. Yes I am.

Too much scum-benefit in sheeping to be null.

The only true nulls are in instances where a player does something in every game/close to every game. Natirasha's self voting is one of those instances. Sakura sheeping me is another.

I don't understand why Voided voted Seanald in 112.

Unless of course there was some sort of gut, this one and not that one vibe going around the town.

We actually talked a lot about why we were voting which lurkers. Did you look at those reasons?

I'm also entirely happy with a muffin quicklynch after everything's set for tonight.

This probably isn't something that's gonna happen without an explanation.

Hey I forgot I had a third shot on my medium so I'm channeling no one

You used two shots already? One on Pyro, another on ???.

He seems very accepting of his own demise and eager to help the town (although the paranoia over a weak ability like Extra Vote being Gravedug is silly, it reads like townie paranoia).

I thought his reaction when we were going to lynch him originally and he had a "should I transfer all the money I have" moment reeked of incredible incredible towniness.

tl;dr: your whole push on me is opportunistic as fuck. this screams like scum lining up a mislynch

There are a ton of people who could be mislynched before you.

Vote: KingdomAces

Mhork, Molla.
Does this sound good to you?

[Garuda]

Sorry for obnoxiousness, iPad posting.

I did Lost Butterfly night one. I'm pretty sure I said that at some point earlier.

Other question was do you want to lynch kingdom aces with me?

[Garuda]

VOTE: BBMolla

Why? We've let Nero Cain, Seanald and others get away with stupid advertisements. I think we've established enough precedent that we're fine to allow people to advertise & get these shit-tier abilities and no one will bat an eye.

--We didn't advertise last night, but we sadly didn't win shit either. I hate it and it sucks--

Where is this coming from and don't you think town might do weird things? Seanald Seanald Seanald Seanald.

[Garuda]

Why am I currently the leading wagon even though Mhork's 2676 is the closest thing

anyone

has given for reasons so far? It's kind of hard to tell who is being opportunistic when it seems like every single vote is unexplained.

Your predecessor was originally cleared as town because of the investigative immunity/hit man business. Then he did absolutely nothing else ever. Your current posting has been what pretty much amounts to perpetual catchup mode and no effort to make a push on any wagon at all and it doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

[Garuda]

Still?

still what?

as in are you still letting ka coast by on that zdenek claim? The town read has gone stale for pretty much everyone else.

[Garuda]

Still?

I do :/

You're welcome!

I'm not really sure I understand what connections or contrasts you're trying to draw here, though. I'm fairly sure there are a few things from S&L that I was sure enough about for it to be genuine.

This probably isn't something that's gonna happen without an explanation.

What explanation he has given doesn't make me inclined to vote muffin. I'm still waiting on quotes/links/elaborations to 3124 from him, btw.

Why? We've let Nero Cain, Seanald and others get away with stupid advertisements. I think we've established enough precedent that we're fine to allow people to advertise & get these shit-tier abilities and no one will bat an eye.

Seanald's an established idiot, and Nero put too little thought into exactly how abilities like LP and I think Vote Freeze are actually pro-town, but where exactly is this with BB? Yes, adding in Tailor and LP to the list isn't the best idea, but Tailor was added in because of a misunderstanding regarding how that worked, and there's more than enough pro-town abilities in that list that you cannot possibly imagine this being a stupid-town move nor some kind of scum ploy. Or you can tell me what the scum motivation is in advertising all those abilities is?

As for your "not batting an eye" comment, I'm just going to refer you to pgs. 127 and 128, and if you can't see what I'm talking about re: Mina, you deserve a facepalm.

Why would we policy lynch day 4, are you on drugs

Also, this.

Thats cool. Let me do every freaking anti-town thing in every freaking game so that when I do draw scum, I won't get lynched for it.

A.) Just because you do it ever game doesn't always mean it can be called null in relation to you (at least I don't think so)
B.) That's not his point. Nice discredit, tho.

Also, there's a difference between "hesitating" (which I didn't do) and "deferring" (which I did). Learn it, plz.

if he was really that fucking scummy, and that was such a town-driven wagon, it wouldn't have taken 13 fucking days days to happen.

Most of the reasons came from things Seanald said and/or did near the end of the day, though. And also a shift in read from "stupid but can stay alive" to "needs to die" (at least for me in part, anyways).

Oh, for fuck's sake. I don't think you actually do understand what the phrase "the straw the broke the camel's back" means. I'm not voting him for that alone. I have provided other reasons why I am voting him, which you sem to be ignoring.

You're saying that was the final straw. I'm saying that it's too damn light to BE the final straw, and/or that it isn't anything close to a final straw but you're making it out to be like it is for you when it's really not.

I am very much aware of your other reasons. My problem is with what you decided to use to say "Okay, that's it, Pie needs to die" because it's not something that's worth such a declaration. And I don't think you've answered me as to why it's

scummy

bad and not

bad

bad because I've already said I highly agree it's the latter.

Vote: KingdomAces

Mhork, Molla.
Does this sound good to you?

Am I leaning too much on why I think Aces is town or is there something I'm missing?

I don't understand why Voided voted Seanald in 112.

112? I don't have a post 112.

No that was you asking questions with no possible town answer to Nero just as he his wagon hit tipping point.

Huh?

Also, not going to be voting with Esp anytime soon.

(fuck having to retype this THREE FREAKING TIMES <_<)

There's a difference between being confident that you're being pushed for shit reasons as scum and being confident of the same as town.

I don't remember you reasons for ka town and am not particularly inclined to check back right now because this fucking sucks to type on, so starting out with that would probably be best. I was most likely referring to 212 in isolation of whenever the hell you voted Seanald.

[Garuda]

Seanald's an established idiot, and Nero put too little thought into exactly how abilities like LP and I think Vote Freeze are actually pro-town, but where exactly is this with BB? Yes, adding in Tailor and LP to the list isn't the best idea, but Tailor was added in because of a misunderstanding regarding how that worked, and there's more than enough pro-town abilities in that list that you cannot possibly imagine this being a stupid-town move nor some kind of scum ploy. Or you can tell me what the scum motivation is in advertising all those abilities is?

I still don't see how Molla would think Tailor can be town-aligned in any scenario, and why the fuck would you advertise Love Potion

despite us talking about it before

. I think that molla was trying to hide it in the cacophony that is his advertising. Scum motivation is setting up to use their money advantage to sneak all of them up on a mass level.

As for your "not batting an eye" comment, I'm just going to refer you to pgs. 127 and 128, and if you can't see what I'm talking about re: Mina, you deserve a facepalm.

Gimme a sec I know LB kinda struck me as odd today.

Also, this.

It's not a policy lynch, it's using mechanics to scumhunt.

Why the hell wouldn't molla just lie about his advertising?

[Garuda]

Let's do Voided.

Also, I'm gonna freeze ProHawk's vote on Voided, because I really really think Voided is scum and we are not going to let him evade another lynch.

Uwop is a bit scummy too, but I prefer Voided greatly.

Why is upside down scummy?

[Garuda]

What is your town read on him made of, then?