Mini 1508 ~ Tales of uPick ~ Error

[fferyllt]

/confirm

hi guys

I love this game already

[fferyllt]

Hamil.

[fferyllt]

I like your answer better.

[fferyllt]

it will take a hell of a lot more than a town wincon question to qualify you for inthreadmason status, Cabd.

[fferyllt]

Check my first post.

And my vote is where it belongs.

[fferyllt]

Dude, that was in the confirmation stage. That doesn't fuckin count!

One per game. That's my rule.

[fferyllt]

One per game. That's my rule.

And yet, since the incident in question occurred during pregame it therefore did not occur during the game, thus you have not, in fact, "hi guys'd" us this game. Your rule therefore does not apply.

Rules lawyering is a scum tell.

[fferyllt]

I've seen town cabd try to scrub for gamebreaking info before, so there's my first townread

That's an awfully quick townread given who you're townreading.

[fferyllt]

I've seen town cabd try to scrub for gamebreaking info before, so there's my first townread

That's an awfully quick townread given who you're townreading.

Not everyone is infected by your specific brand of paranoia.

Noted.

That's an awfully quick townread given who you're townreading.

Explain?

Cabd makes a study of his own meta. And assorted other reasons for caution.

[fferyllt]

Cabd makes a study of his own meta. And assorted other reasons for caution.

So should I not attempt to read him or what are you trying to say here?

You're townreading him on the basis of a page 1 post. I know you know you're talking about the mastermind of the Xenologue scum team.

It's an easy read to make if you know his alignment.

[fferyllt]

Why do people think I give a fuck about Xenologue?

Anything is an easy read to make if I know their alignment. Are you saying I'm being disingenuous in that I believe what he did with you is more likely to come from town than from scum?

If not, then why are you going down this bullshit burden of proficiency road already?

I'm FoSing you.

[fferyllt]

You didn't answer any of my questions

That's right. I didn't. I'm a relatively easy player to read, especially to meta-read. He spent his gambit on someone who could be sorted other ways.

It may be disingenuous. It may be incautious.

It leads to some unease about you.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: borkjerfkin

What's a jerfkin and how do you bork it?

pretend I gave a witty fluff answer to that, but we actually have a non-fluff gamestate right now - any thoughts on page 1?

I've seen town cabd try to scrub for gamebreaking info before, so there's my first townread

p-edit: where are you going with this syry

VOTE: notscience

Policy.

I like this wagon

Vote: notscience

Also:

it takes 7 to spontaneously assault someone with a wooden sword.

This made me lol

I agree with bork that Cabd is pretty town atm.

So ffery why is bork's early townread worth a FoS but sakura's not?

I'm taking a wait and see pov with sakura for now.

[fferyllt]

That's right. I didn't. I'm a relatively easy player to read, especially to meta-read. He spent his gambit on someone who could be sorted other ways.

What the fuck does any of that have to do with me?

You claim to be townreading him on the basis of a poorly spent gambit.

[fferyllt]

This is about the most underhanded FoS I've ever seen.

You're applying things that you,

not I

, might have done based on arbitrary standards that you have set to try to denounce an early game read based on I think a pretty reasonable premise.

You've also not said anything about Cabd's alignment as a result if this is such a "poorly spent play" from him.

VOTE: fferyllt

I'm undecided about his alignment.

[fferyllt]

Cabd, what are you thinking about ffery atm?

And what are you thinking about Cabd?

[fferyllt]

Interesting

[fferyllt]

How so?

Who are you not townreading?

[fferyllt]

Syr's not funny.

I laughed.

[fferyllt]

What are your thoughts about Syr, Cabd?

[fferyllt]

That he needs to follow up with whatever he was doing in his page two posts.

So you think there was method to his page two posts?

[fferyllt]

That he needs to follow up with whatever he was doing in his page two posts.

So you think there was method to his page two posts?

Also, you make a really twisted stake in the ground.

unFoSing bork.

[fferyllt]

doing a reset.

[fferyllt]

Yeah.

I have a really strong tendency to build my understanding of a game landscape around 1 or 2 players I know well and then build out from there by comparing my read of that player with others' reads and vice versa.

It works pretty well when I can actually read the player(s) I think of as stakes in the ground.

I realized I'm doing that with Cabd, and that way lies madness.

[fferyllt]

That may be. It doesn't help me process the rest of the gamestate.

[fferyllt]

Then who are you basing this game around?

I might treat the game more like an unknown set of players for a while.

Syr probably, when he's put something more than large-grain trolling/reaction testing into the game.

[fferyllt]

unFoSing bork.

why?

If you read my last 3 or 4 posts you can probably answer this for yourself.

[fferyllt]

Well, you said you're reevaluating your worldview of the game wrt having Cabd as the center of it, I get that; is that it or did I do something?

A little of both.

Your reaction to Gaiden's reads post juxtaposed with my asking Cabd for his thoughts on Syr crystallized my problem.

[fferyllt]

You want to make him

stake

steak, fferylit, trust me.

Tempo?

[fferyllt]

Cabd, Nati

Is there some reason why you two aren't OD'ing on flavor spec?

[fferyllt]

That or the mod is fucking with you.

[fferyllt]

PEDIT@Ffery: I'm going to go on previous-game "mod mistakes" and say it was a genuine mistake.

It does NOT mean that scum didn't get the town wincon prior to game start, though. It just means the wincon was left out of the OP.

I'm happy to be townread and shit, but I prefer solidly reality-based reasons.

[fferyllt]

Oi vey, I'm reading through this... I have no solid reads yet... I'm going to need to do an ISO.

Oh Hi all.

How's this coming along?

[fferyllt]

That's a strange mechanic. :/

[fferyllt]

Well, it ~IS~ a uPick, bastard mechanics may be evident.

Oh yeah, and ffery, I feel like inviting you to go places with me tomorrow, that okay?

I feel like I've spent an hour staring at this post.

Ok. I think.

[fferyllt]

Good. I'll stop worrying about it.

[fferyllt]

Possibly an appointment in Samarra.

[fferyllt]

diving?

never mind. the flavor is going to go past me.

I take it this is why you asked me about Hamil.

Ok.

[fferyllt]

@Syr, hey, plz come talk to me.

Why aren't you voting for Cabd if you think he's Scum?

Why does one have to vote for who they think is scum? Is my case any less valid?

This is ironic coming from me, but if you think he's scum and you think your case is valid, why not move your vote?

Is it because of the deadline mechanic?

[fferyllt]

"guess the votecount thing was edited in" -> "guess the win con thing was edited in"

Yes it was.

I'll vote when I have more data on a few players. I'm usually pretty slow to vote anyway, and it looks like the deadline mechanic may actually encourage my style of voting behavior.

[fferyllt]

Also if you go with a premise that Cabd is scum who somehow knew to ask about Hamil, you can't auto-assume ffery was town for knowing the answer. There actually is one case where that play from cabd-scum makes sense: if ffery is ALSO scum (in which case you argue that the scum PM does have Hamil somewhere in it). That's kinda tinfoil-hatty and I don't even want to go down that road unless we get a scum flip from one or the other.

Cabd's been pretty damn blatant about it, so I don't see any reason to not to point out some of what's apparently going on here, but I'll wait for Cabd to respond I guess.

Then I'll lay out this gymkhana as I see it. Or not, depending.

[fferyllt]

YOU SAID "TOWN GUILT"

In what post? I've searched and I can't find any posts containing "guilt" prior to your first post asking about "town guilt".

[fferyllt]

Are you caught up?

[fferyllt]

Are you caught up?

Kinda sorta. But you can ask me questions like I am.

Make with the japes, fool.

You, sir, may very kindly get fucked.

srs thoughts about Cabd's alignment?

[fferyllt]

Well I mean, your other posts did not instill confidence in me.

Whyever not?

srs thoughts about Cabd's alignment?

Honestly? I think he might actually be town for once.

k.

Now all I have to do is sort you so I know what to think of that endorsement.

[fferyllt]

Well I mean, your other posts did not instill confidence in me.

IME town-Syr trolls with more more glee than scum-Syr does.

[fferyllt]

What are your thoughts on my

made up shit

case, fferylit?

I doubt I'll get past weighing-things-up mode wrt to Cabd today tbh.

[fferyllt]

He's not particularly trolling after that opening sequence.

True. As I kind of expect. It's about the tone of the trolling. And maybe the targets. Not the duration. And there are differences in his play once he is down to business, too.

See how long it takes to get down to business in this town game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27049

And this one, which IMO is on the exuberant end of his town style: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27202

And here's a scum game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=30280 His early trolling is kinda perfunctory and he lurks hardcore in that one. It was a difficult game for scum and I love linking to it in games with Syr and Cabd because town owned hard in that game.

And another: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=27641 Same lower key trollery, but actually a damn busy game for him. Look at how he points out how many pages he has to catch up on and starts right in on the busy work. Compare that to his attitude in this game.

[fferyllt]

So I think the Oil Rift Trust might actually be a thing this game.

loled irl.

ouroboros will yet be a thing.

[fferyllt]

Even so, it's pretty thin evidence so far.

[fferyllt]

The Sirens are dice?

[fferyllt]

VOTE: pitoli

[fferyllt]

Not liking her level of contribution.

[fferyllt]

Aren't you usually more stingy about using your vote?

It varies. I've gone so far as to put down a non-RVS vote on page 1 on occasion.

If I had two votes, one of them would be on TAM.

What do you think of pitoli?

[fferyllt]

I'm thinking notsci is town.

[fferyllt]

I'm thinking notsci is town.

Well I'm thinking the opposite care to tell me why?

because he's scumhunting, he's not going after easy targets, and the flashes of paranoia look genuine.

[fferyllt]

I'm thinking notsci is town.

It took you that long to figure it out?

child please

[fferyllt]

@Iso - thanks for the explanation. In all honesty, I'm not all that moved by it wrt overt scum motivation, but there is lack of town motivation and other things to be gained here:
VOTE: Sakura

Otherwise I have a really bad handle on the game for 14 pages:

town:
NS

maybe town:
Cabd
Iso

?:
everyone else

I feel like this game is not moving anywhere that quickly, most people are really guarded, and I only really feel ns and iso (and myself) are attempting to move the game forward.

I probably overreacted earlier: ffery's behavior is actually pretty consistent with Narnia, and while I was quite happy to remain detached from her in that game, I'm not in this one. Consider this an olive branch.

Thanks, and ditto. The sorting process is kinda by nature antagonistic.

[fferyllt]

Ffery you didn't telegraph your pitoli vote at all. What's up with that?

It was intentional.

[fferyllt]

Bork, is there a reason you left ffery out of your town pile?

Yeah, my post was that I'm inviting her to interact with me with the promise that I'm not gonna be abrasive about it. That doesn't mean she still doesn't need to be sorted.

I have you tentatively sorted based on our earlier interactions and my reset. Compared to your interactions with me in the Narnia game, a little abrasiveness is a pretty decent town marker.

[fferyllt]

Ffery you didn't telegraph your pitoli vote at all. What's up with that?

It was intentional.

And?

Reverse trajectories are a thing. I'll discuss it later if you're still curious.

[fferyllt]

I have you tentatively sorted based on our earlier interactions and my reset. Compared to your interactions with me in the Narnia game, a little abrasiveness is a pretty decent town marker.

Cool.

Regarding Pitoli: We do have a recent instance where she started out as a non-presence and flipped town (Walking Dead)

True. She was a sort of victim of an insanely short day 1. I don't think we'll have that issue in this game.

[fferyllt]

Welcome to Mafia, may I take your hat?

Related: Read thread title as "Tales of uSuck" on my way in this time.

Most of this player list has played together enough to have developed something of a rapport. It's unnatural for there to be so little trolling going on, even our resident jester Syryana is not doing it.

I don't think I can get much more trollish than a naked vote with no telegraphing.

[fferyllt]

Nati are you thinking that everybody but you got a scum role PM?

[fferyllt]

So this is going to be Xenologue all over again huh

What are the parallels to Xenologue from your perspective?

[fferyllt]

So this is going to be Xenologue all over again huh

What are the parallels to Xenologue from your perspective?

The fact that I feel like replacing out, but dont want to because this is an uPick.

So it's not tied to parallels in terms of game events?

[fferyllt]

You know like that time LLD called Blood Pact and I suddenly got Flashwagoned (and almost Hammered if Saki hadn't unvoted)

Scum took maximal advantage of that in the Xenologue game.

Do you see scum influence on your wagon's formation?

[fferyllt]

Do you see scum influence on your wagon's formation?

ns.

You kinda saw how I overreacted towards him because he KNOWs that i am changing playstyles because of reasons i'm not gonna mention, yet he decides to push that anything different from my old meta means scum me.

Well, there's sort of a quiet, sullen vibe you have going, and it does come off a little scummy because it feels like you're being reactive - not seeking interactions. You gave Cabd a townread without reaching out to him to speak of. And you gave Gaiden a scumread without much direct interaction either.

Then you just kinda shut down after 336. Maybe that's due to feeling like you're being targeted by scum, though.

I don't know if this oblique style is intentional or if it's a result of other stuff you're trying to change. But, it's probably not all that effective for scumhunting if it's overdone.

I like to occasionally go quiet and just observe for a while in games, but it has to be combined with periods of activity and questioning or it can look like active lurking.

[fferyllt]

Then you just kinda shut down after 336.

If it's because of the time difference then:
After work I usually play videogames in my computer while every now and then checking in here to see what's been posted.
If it's of the way I posted:
I am aware that I'm playing more passive here, but the thing is that I don't feel comfortable being as active as I used to be, I just have a feeling that everytime i engage with someone I'm gonna get lynched, look at what happened in Xenologue, I engaged with LLD and got flashwagoned, and after that it left quite an impression on me, because I couldn't read anyone worth anything and I was too paranoid of everyone in that game, and look at what happened, I got lynched as Town PR despite me claiming.

Well, that was an unusual game in a lot of ways, including the insane complexity of the roles and role interactions. I felt very much out of my league playing with some of the players, including LLD.

This game doesn't have anything like the "wtf have I gotten myself into" vibe of that game.

[fferyllt]

Why?

Because his reads in 237 feel pretty shallow to me. And because he was active elsewhere on MS today but didn't come back to this game. I know he hardcore lurks sometimes as town. But that's a town behavior I think some players cultivate because it benefits their scum game. I discourage that sort of play when I can because we wind up with players at or near lylo that nobody has a decent read on.

[fferyllt]

holy shit

VOTE: notscience

I think we've got a scumslip

Someone got caught by the "order of cruxis" it seems.

Explain?

[fferyllt]

@ffery: I really shouldn't have to.

I thought you guys were talking about flavor.

This role pm clearing stuff is shitty and dangerous IMO. We shouldn't assume that scum didn't get a copy of the town win condition or a vanilla role pm or w/e.

[fferyllt]

We shouldn't assume that scum didn't get a copy of the town win condition or a vanilla role pm or w/e.

Why assume this after the mod added the win condition to the OP specifically after what Cabd did?

Because I've modded a ton of mafia games, and I know how to mod-wifom the everloving shit out of addendums to the opening info.

[fferyllt]

Ffery and notsci really ought to be leveraging themselves as inthread masons. I wonder if ffery has figured out the code present I sent her yet.

I've been reluctant to go too far down this or any other rabbit hole. Especially a Cabd-authored rabbit hole.

[fferyllt]

Ffery and notsci really ought to be leveraging themselves as inthread masons. I wonder if ffery has figured out the code present I sent her yet.

I've been reluctant to go too far down this or any other rabbit hole. Especially a Cabd-authored rabbit hole.

Do you want me to get pissed off at you? Because I think I've had enough of this shit with your paranoia.

I'm taking a fullness of time approach. I *think* I understood your code, but the transparency makes me wonder if there's a layer or two that I'm missing.

[fferyllt]

Fine. Just don't expect to get much done until tomorrow on it.

See, stuff like this makes me pretty sure I'm missing something.

[fferyllt]

I'm sad.

If that's not something about an ongoing, would you care to elaborate?

[fferyllt]

Welp. I guess I better get more serious about sorting.

Not willing to lynch (Cabd, Nati, notsci, Sakura, bork, Iso, Skullduggery)
Willing to lynch (Syr-slot, TAM, Gaiden, pitoli)

Would also consider Hanasawa because I'm not sure what to do with somebody I might not be able to evaluate for weeeeeks.

[fferyllt]

P-Edit: @ffery: I've played with Hanasawa on my original site if that helps.

And your read is?

[fferyllt]

how can i get a read on someone that hasn't even posted, but hana's on V/LA as reminded to us by ns.

heh. So you see my problem.

[fferyllt]

Not willing to lynch (Cabd, Nati, notsci, Sakura, bork, Iso, Skullduggery)

I get everything here except Iso. Also, why the 180 on your "the mod wifom is wifom" angle?

It's not a 180. I'm more swayed by the layers of reactions than by the trigger.

I've kinda liked Iso's posts so far. I don't agree with him, but it looks to me like he's scumhunting.

If we've got at least a week or so, I won't worry about a quick and dirty sort.

[fferyllt]

It's not a 180. I'm more swayed by the layers of reactions than by the trigger.

What about MY reactions put me in the top list?

It wasn't your reactions. It was your gambit and our page 9 convo.

[fferyllt]

It's not a gambit, it's a claim only you will understand.

I think we're talking past each other a little bit.

[fferyllt]

Welp. I guess I better get more serious about sorting.

Not willing to lynch (Cabd, Nati, notsci, Sakura, bork, Iso, Skullduggery)
Willing to lynch (Syr-slot, TAM, Gaiden, pitoli)

Would also consider Hanasawa because I'm not sure what to do with somebody I might not be able to evaluate for weeeeeks.

Ffery this post left off natirasha.

He's in that group because I'm not so great at reading him, so I'm not going to try hard to sort him on day 1 if it's going to be super short.

[fferyllt]

when she catches up?

[fferyllt]

The pessimist in me says syr replaced out because "fuck those odds of winning as scum with confotown cabd and ffery"

I have somewhat similar concerns.

p-edit I haven't character claimed.

[fferyllt]

It was entirely unintentional if I did.

And, I think you're wrong about my character.

Does this need sorting out?

[fferyllt]

No it's okay. It doesn't really

matter

. I don't think it's like Vi's games where character claiming is punished though. We COULD massclaim only characters and be fine if you really wanted to, but I think it's kinda pointless if characters and alignments aren't related. Hell, nati claimed a villain.

Ok. I'd want to know for sure that character claiming isn't punished anyway.

[fferyllt]

That would lock potential gambit fakeclaims down the line, as well.

I'm fine with that.

[fferyllt]

Phantasia: {Sakura, Nati}
Abyss: {Syr's Slot}
Symphonia (and symphonia II): {Gaiden}
Xillia: { fferyllt}
Vesperia {Cabd}
Graces: { }
Other { }

Given the subject matter, I don't think popcorn really accomplishes much.

[fferyllt]

Who is "we"? You and Gaiden?

I think "we" referred to players who have played Vi games. For sure I know that includes Cabd, Sakura, Nati, Bork and myself. Also Syr but he's replacing out. We all 6 played a recent Vi uPick.

[fferyllt]

Phantasia: {Sakura, Nati}
Abyss: {Syr's Slot}
Symphonia (and symphonia II): {Gaiden, Bork}
Xillia: { fferyllt}
Vesperia {Cabd, Iso}
Graces: { }
Other { }

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE

VOTE: Syr's slot

It makes me sad to think he's not town-Syr.

[fferyllt]

I was Elle Mel Mata, and I became a confirmed-town treestump upon lynch or NK.

My reply to my role pm was "oh god I love this role".

[fferyllt]

My three were

- Tenebrae
- Rita Mordio
- Elle Mel Marta