Mewbie 1442 the second -- Game over

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/confirm

whatevs

Nacho's cooler than I am anyways

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^lolwut

Vote: Buck

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ooh gurl, u trippin if u think i have good taste

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ugh why is this game actively trying to be as baffling as possible?

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Vote: CrisP

Discuss.

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Vote: CrisP

Discuss.

I found his reply rather town actually. I was looking for "it was a joke" as a reason..

In your experience, is "it was a joke" more common from Town or Scum?

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Oh, and @GIF: No to your earlier post and ok to your most recent.

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^Interesting

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You do keep saying that.

I have yet to discover anyone for whom saying could make it so, though.

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I'm not sure what GM could have said to the statement "youre scum" [sic] that isn't "hah no".

She could have said: why do you think I am mafia, or I'm not mafia and it's interesting you think so (cause in her mind that person is either mistaken or faking it), and these are just two replies that come to mind after 5 seconds of thought, I'm sure there are a lot of possibilities, being defensive is not wrong per se (as a human reaction it's a null tell or slightly scummy if you are playing against an expierienced mafia player), but it doesn't help the rest of town if that is her alignment.

This assumes several things:
1. That I think they're serious (I don't)
2. That they actually are serious (as I doubt)
3. That even if they are serious they have explicable reasons (which they don't)
4. That I haven't already said something useful. (Which I have, unless people were too stupid to realize that my vote on you was a real one or that GIF's post needs some attention.)

Why would mafia be interested in stimulating discussion?

To make themselves look Town.

It's difficult to make many judgement calls when most of the playerlist hasn't been posting.

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Nvm. Broken by hyrule game.
(I had my hopes up because you didn't use that word in new matrix game)

New matrix game?

Yeah, I tend to just use it whenever the mood strikes me now.
Got kinda boring after the 90 billionth one in Hyrule.

P-EDIT
oooohhhhh, I think I have a townread now

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ohhhhh that game

yeah, I seem to have a greater tendency to use it in newbie games anyway

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although that was a newbie

so whatever

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P-EDIT
oooohhhhh, I think I have a townread now

Are you implying that BW is town in your opinion since you believe GIF to be scum? If so why are you voting me and not him, do you think we are mafia buddies? If not who is your town read and how come you said so right after GIF's post about BW?

1. When did I say GIF was Scum?
2. I'm voting you because I didn't like whatever it was I didn't like. I think it was a vote and an unvote, but I don't really remember.
3. I don't pairhunt sans flips.
4. I said so right after GIF's post because I liked his thought process. Similar thoughts usually mean similar alignments.
Therefore GIF is my townread, though "read" might be a bit too strong.

I am also leaning Town on DC, though not the biggest fan of his mild buddying attempts on me.

I also like your point on IaDR, you may be on to something with that.

Seriously though, GIF is definite scum. This guy is just acting like his scum moves are whatever when its just a cover up. Please vote GIF.

I think maybe you should go meta him when you can, because this is just GIF.

Honestly his behaviour here isn't even in the top 50 scummiest things he's done in just the games I've been in with him (and quite a few of those from his Town games).

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Honestly his behaviour here isn't even in the top 50 scummiest things he's done in just the games I've been in with him (and quite a few of those from his Town games).

Don't have time for meta reading. So basically he has free reign to be scum because that's what he does? Am I over-reacting because no else seems to think GIF is scum?

Different things tell different ways for different players, is what I'm saying.

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Is there an IC in this game? Because if there is and this town vegetation continues I would like to flag him/her for doing a terrible job, not that this excuses most of the other townies here in any way.

Kind of both and neither of us?
I don't know, but activity isn't really the IC's job anyway.

The rest of the post is somewhat handy but at the same time a lot of IIoA.

Now, there is something that's troubling me: lack of content from Nacho.

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And DC joins the ranks of my townlist.

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Games where only one person is posting aren't fun either.

Any one player can only do so much for activity.

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gm y r u still voting CrisP

Good question.

Vote: Jmo

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For the record, my vote has nothing to do with your CrisP vote.

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Its got something to do with me continually calling you scum? because that's just about all i can remember doing in this game.

No.
It may, however, have something to do with the latter sentence.

GM would love more from you since you are the IC and I dont want to step on your toes here

No I'm not.

Double-checked just to see what you were talking about...
APPARENTLY I AM
GO FIGURE
I don't care. Do what you want.

Also IRL stuff.

@Nacho: Sometimes it takes me a while to suss things.

Sometimes I try to get people to post more.

The attacking thing is actually something I picked up from you early on, I think, and I find it rather stronger in newbie games though I don't often advertise the fact.

I'd like to know if your townread on jmo comes from anything other than "earnestness".

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At this point in the game? Maybe, maybe not.

Does anyone else feel earnestness from jmo?

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Because he thinks he can get me lynched.
In other words:
Either because he's Town and thinks I'm Scum he can get lynched, or because he's Scum and thinks I'm Town he can get lynched.

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Why can't I be scum with you, bussing you?

I hadn't thought of that. I suppose you could be, although this early in the game?
Do you have a history of bussing/bussing early in your scumgames?

- If Jmo pushes hard on GM and GM gets lynched, the chance of him getting lynched next round goes up dramatically if GM was confirmed town.

It probably doesn't actually. Town can get Town lynched too.

Because he thinks he can get me lynched.
In other words:
Either because he's Town and thinks I'm Scum he can get lynched, or because he's Scum and thinks I'm Town he can get lynched.

That's an odd way of phrasing it, it looks like you tried really hard to make it as neutral as possible to avoid slip-ups, you just need to change town and scum in the two sentences and they are interchangable but:

Yeah, I was deliberately doing that to make it clear that's not why I'm scumreading him.

If he thinks you are scum does he care if he can get you lynched? I would just push for it regardless and hope to convince the rest of town, unless I happened to have another strong mafia read which the rest of town agrees on as well, which is pretty unlikely day one.

When you're Scum, you usually want to get rid of the players that have proven they can play at least decently, at least sometimes.
BUT you want your nightkills to use on PRs, because PRs are difficult to get lynched and a great danger to you.
So it's best to try and get the decent players out by lynch.

Also do you think you are an easy lynch at this time?

Right now? It's possible. I certainly haven't been playing up to snuff.

CrisP is my strongest townread after that post.

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30 I must be trippin' then.

Ooh, u SO trippin'
Also, have you come across the [post] tags? Much quicker than urls for this sort of list.

42 Why are you condoning this?

Why is who condoning naked votes?

98 Instead of being worried about the sheeping, you should be more worried about the motivations behind the actions. Giffy wanted to see reactions, is this town-motivated or scum-motivated? Jmo decided to vote GM instead of you for who knows what reason. Is this town-motivated or scum-motivated?

This might be the new towniest thing thus far.

So three summary-type things for Brian:
1. I have heard good things and hope they are true.
2. I hope you are Town.
3. Not sure if buddying or just good-natured.

[goodmorning]

Now, if only "lynch all newb-lurkers" actually worked as a viable scum-tell. The first time I ever played Mafia, I rolled scum and I promise you I did not lurk. I took control of the town and lynched every person I wanted to.

Good for you, please post a link to the game in question. This is a highly dangerous strategy that never works against good players for more than a few rounds because you are either mafia killing town or a misguided town lynching the wrong people, nobody would then follow your reads after a certain point and if you further tried to lead town after failing everyone else would see you as highly suspicious. Furthermore once a town is lynched you can revisit all the motivations that led to that lynch and if you actually were the one going for it the chance you slipped is higher, especially if you are a new mafia player.

I realize this is a question for Brian, but I can back this up too. See N1305 for my first real Scum game, in which I posted as much as I possibly could, and MN1420 for my first SK game, in which I only killed Town, claimed Vig, was somehow believed, and won anyway.

70 Let's say you lynch a quiet player and they indeed flip town. Then what? You're back to the same boat but the player never gave you any information to work with. If you want a particular player to produce you content, take the initiative and engage them.

Totally disagree with this, first you reduce the suspect pool because the quiet town was inherently suspicious as there is no way to get a read on him, second you avoid worring about a future mislynch at lylo, thirdly it's the players own fault if he gets lynched and he was town, there is no reason to "take the initiative" and make him produce content, he is responsible for showing the rest of us he is town and finally you know his alignment so you have more information than before the lynch which you can use to re-read previous posts of other people who actually produced content. This said, we tried prodding IamDr multiple times, since this game was going nowhere.

As far as theory goes on this one, these are pretty much the two sides to the argument.
It's usually pretty well accepted to lynch slots which are detrimental to Town before LyLo in many games. That said, this game is Micro-sized, so these sorts of lynches will happen less often.

How the hell did you get two completely different reactions meshed together like that?

That was not a reaction, that's what I read about her post after analyizing it, I liked the part where she gave a town read, have to say by the way I'm liking it less and less since she has been giving town reads left right and centre, albeit well motivated, and I did not like the deflection so much, so I explained what could be behind it given both possible scenarios. I also find it important to always give my thought process when writing so everyone else who is town can get a read off of that and come back to it if they need to make a decision on my alignment in the future.

A question for you: would giving lots of townreads make it easier for me if I were Scum, or harder?

[goodmorning]

I realize this is a question for Brian, but I can back this up too. See N1305 for my first real Scum game, in which I posted as much as I possibly could, and MN1420 for my first SK game, in which I only killed Town, claimed Vig, was somehow believed, and won anyway.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. Your description of the second game just shows how hard it is though, after killing town you had to make a PR claim to carry it out and that's always an iffy proposition at best, if mafia has to make plays to win then town is already in a better position compared to the everybody lurks and we RL scenario that a set of IamDr players would create.

Well, the thing with the second game was that with 2 kills a night and no claimed vig they were going to start SK hunting and I was going to be the logical choice.
At any rate you're right that lurking is generally anti-Town.

While we are on the subject of meta and GM, if you are town and have a bit of time check out her other newbie game in progress, 1447.

But don't talk about it because site rules.

As far as theory goes on this one, these are pretty much the two sides to the argument.
It's usually pretty well accepted to lynch slots which are detrimental to Town before LyLo in many games. That said, this game is Micro-sized, so these sorts of lynches will happen less often.

Where are the two sides, you just say it's pretty well accepted . Moreover, why would that be the case in a micro game, if anything having a small game requires you to get rid of potentially dangerous slots faster given how quickly you can get to lylo, whereas you can afford a random lynch in bigger games just to get more information.

The side that Brian put forth and the side that you put forth, I meant.
You pretty much said it yourself: random lynches are more affordable in larger games (particularly ones with multiple killing roles, but that's a topic for another time).

A question for you: would giving lots of townreads make it easier for me if I were Scum, or harder?

Ultimately, like any other information you give, it makes it harder for you as mafia, but:

1. 3 town reads is not going overboard even as mafia.
2. Sometimes mafia say so and so is town based on their comments because they think everyone else will also pick up on how towny someone is being, forgetting that the rest of us don't know that person's alignment, so what for them is a clear tell for us is not at all.
3. It dilutes the importance of you giving that first read on GIF, if you are generally free with your town reads what could have been a tell is now a null for me.

1. True.
2. Perhaps to an extent, but sometimes a tell is a tell is a tell.
3. Well, GIF is a special case. Normally I'd be pretty reticent in the early stages of a newbie game.

I hadn't thought of that. I suppose you could be, although this early in the game?

Are you saying he looks to you like the kind of person who would early bus?

This might be the new towniest thing thus far.

Why?

Are you kidding me? That question and the thought processes that it's coming from (that you can even see being worked out in the latter half of the question) come from a very towny place.

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Are you saying he looks to you like the kind of person who would early bus?

The answer I expected was something along the lines of "of course I'm not going to assume that you're bussing me because I'm town, what the hell are you thinking?".

I've had bad experiences with that sort of phrasing in the past. I tend not to call myself Town anymore.

Are you kidding me? That question and the thought processes that it's coming from (that you can even see being worked out in the latter half of the question) come from a very towny place.

I want real reasoning :/
Don't just tell me it's coming from a townie place, I could infer that already. Tell me why it's coming from a townie place.

Why it's coming from a townie place? Maybe because he's Town?
In all seriousness, it's his open processing: why did GIF vote? why did jmo vote? and he explores from the Town POV.
And after exploring, he doesn't just go "well jmo's vote seems weird to me", he uses that weirdness to try to explain his thoughts and maybe even push a smidgen of case.

GM: Starts off attacking me for my post then jumps to crisp, both null moves. He gets an early townread on both GIF and DC. Both of them were voting me at the time, yet GM does not vote me?

I don't sheep for the sake of sheeping.
In fact, I don't sheep at all.
Townreads can be wrong.
The reads of my townreads can also be wrong.

At present, what's on my mind:
Nacho. I can't get a read on him.
On the one hand I didn't really like his earlier posts. On the other hand, 191.

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Lynching JM also has the added benefit for me of finding out Nacho's alignment, there is always the chance he is mafia and is defending a townie but I'd give that play a 10% at most, JM would be dead now if Nacho was mafia and he is town, only the scenario where Nacho has already invested so much in defending JM and can't backtrack anymore and keep his credibility exists, and that's my 10%.

Or there's WKing, but that's not a particularly likely one either.

Hm. One the one hand, Jmo looks scummy as all get-out.
On the other hand,

Vote: Rach

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As far as Rach goes, it's not something she couldn't do as Town, but quite frankly it's incredibly scummy of her.

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Again, Chrisp, stop drawing ties between player without a flip. That will also get you in trouble.

I find it funny you are repeatedly trying to tell me how to play when you are considered one of the scummiest players so far, so you are failing as either mafia or town, whereas I am seen as town by most people here including you. Trying to make connections between players is just a natural way to scumhunt, whether they flipped or not is irrelevant, that's why you can build scenarios, like: if x is mafia then y may be as well, or I don't think it makes sense for x to be mafia if y is.

For an example of how this sort of thing can get you in trouble, see my misfortunes with it in N1377.

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@jmo: Unless I wanted to get into your argument with CrisP,

which I categorically don't

, there's not much for me to say right now, except

look who's talking

.

My opinions on everyone remain unchanged since the last time I shared each of them.

There is less than a day left, so people should probably start consolidating votes.

[goodmorning]

might be looking at nacho real hard tomorrow

actually pretty likely

might have the flu

will be v/la thurs, fri, maybe sat

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Well, now that Nacho's confirmed Town I literally only have two suspects.

Vote: jmo

[goodmorning]

Because he's Nacho.

Duh.

[goodmorning]

- Nacho died and he was town, the main things he did this game were defending jmo16mla and accusing first GM and BR then RM and BR and finally RM and AA's slot. So AA, BR and GM would have a reason to kill him, GM actually stated Nacho was a good kill, jmo16mla also benefitted from this because now he seems more town.

Nacho was probably the strongest player in this game.

- I'm alive and I thought I would be dead for sure considering how much I had to expose myself to get this game going, it's too bad I'm not mafia cause I could just go afk and wait for the RM's of this game to hand me the victory, this however means, in my mind because you should always question everyone's alignment, that mafia valued killing nacho over killing an almost confirmed town. So why's that? I have to assume I probably have the wrong the reads on someone that is in the mafia group and that points to BW, Yui113, AA because I read them as town, and GM for the same reasons. This also makes jmo16mla look more town because as mafia he would have to assume I would come out of the gate trying to get him killed.

This is WIFOM, WIFOM is bad and the first part looks extra specially bad.

might be looking at nacho real hard tomorrow

actually pretty likely

might have the flu

will be v/la thurs, fri, maybe sat

This post gives me the creeps, why would you even think of putting yourself V/LA during night time? This looks highly artificial. Why would you post you will be looking at Nacho before you know if RM is town or mafia? Other than a lurking suspicion, which I believe you guys can read in my hammer post, I also had to admit RM was looking really scummy, and if she was mafia then Nacho would have been one of the most town in the game, considering he started the whole vote on her and redirected the attention on her from JM. You posting this makes me think you were already planning what to do next because you already knew RM's alignment.

Because the mod could need to reach me overnight for any number of reasons and I like to let folks know when I'll be unavailable?
Because I wasn't a huge fan of his posting for the most part regardless of Rach's flip. I don't do pre-flip associations. I'm pretty sure we've been over that.
Are you saying bussing is impossible?

Well, now that Nacho's confirmed Town I literally only have two suspects.

Vote: jmo

I don't like this because that's what I thought mafia would do today if I were alive. Who's your other suspect?

The same one I've had the entire time. If you haven't been reading my posts that's a crying shame. It's Buck.

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This is WIFOM, WIFOM is bad and the first part looks extra specially bad.

Nacho was probably the strongest player in this game.

This is as much wine in front of me as the reasons I give, any discussion about night kills can be WIFOM, that does not mean you can't consider them. What especially didnt't you like about the first part?

Except that I was specifically asked, and as it's in part a theory question, answered.
I especially didn't like the first part because 1. arrogance and 2. waving your not being killed in everyone's faces

Also the best player in the game, according to you, was dead wrong day 1 and did his best to save a mafia?

good =/= infallible

Because the mod could need to reach me overnight for any number of reasons and I like to let folks know when I'll be unavailable?

Sure and you did not consider how people would react upon reading you were V/LA during the night time.

Anybody who's come across my V/LAs knows that I'm pretty active during them anyway, besides which only one of my V/LA days was even overnight to begin with. Or is today not Friday?

I don't like the way you're trying to make this scummy when it's completely null.

Are you saying bussing is impossible?

Yes, day 1, 2 v 7 with 2 town power roles you don't know about, getting your buddy killed for no reason is just not a good option, unless now you think Nacho is a bad player? If RM was under heavy scrutiny before Nacho started accusing her and he threw in his vote, that was one thing, but to start the whole suspicion on her, vote her, and let her die is just very unlikely.

If you think your partner's going to be dead weight sometimes it is a good option.
Regardless:

You apparently agree:

I hadn't thought of that. I suppose you could be, although this early in the game?
Do you have a history of bussing/bussing early in your scumgames

No. I was saying that specifically about jmo. Nacho is a very different species of player imo.

So what you are saying is: you are about to discover if RM is town or mafia, and your first thought is, let's check Nacho because he might have bussed her?

No. What I am saying is: RM is lynched. I think Nacho has been acting suspiciously regardless of her flip. I want to take a closer look at him.

The same one I've had the entire time. If you haven't been reading my posts that's a crying shame. It's Buck.

So you RSV'ed Buck and since then you are convinced he is mafia, I hope you have more to say about this accusation because up to now you certainly haven't made it clear, and yes, I have read your posts.

voting early =/= RVS

seriously

[goodmorning]

Except that I was specifically asked, and as it's in part a theory question, answered.

So what you are saying is we should just ignore NK's?

Not always, but it definitely shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's reasoning.

I especially didn't like the first part because 1. arrogance and 2. waving your not being killed in everyone's faces

1. There is no arrogance in stating facts, it's a fact I was town read by most people in the game day 1. It is also a fact that mafia has every interest in killing slots that are thought of by most as town because that increases their chances of hiding among suspicious people.

2. If you read the follow up you will see why I wrote it, it was not done in order to "wave it in your face" but using it as a premise for the reasoning that comes after it. The fact you are debating the premise and ignoring the reasoning by screaming WIFOM, instead of pointing out what is wrong and what might be right from your POV looks scummy.

It's not reasoning if it could be any one of a number of things.
It does in some fashion point to at least one of the Scum having played Nacho before because this game has been not his best, but on the other hand it could just be that someone thought they saw him drop a PR tell or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to frame someone or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to confuse people or on and on and on.

This is why it is WIFOM. This is why it is dismissable.
And that particular brand of arrogance being used to position oneself as "ooh look I am so Town why didn't they kill me I am so confused because I am totes not Scum", that is what I don't like.

Anybody who's come across my V/LAs knows that I'm pretty active during them anyway, besides which only one of my V/LA days was even overnight to begin with. Or is today not Friday?

Here you are answering a question you were not asked, clearly worried that someone might check if you were active during your supposed V/LA (which makes it even more artificial), instead of the reply I was expecting, which would have gone along the lines of: no I did not think about what others would think about my post because I was just telling something to the mod. Guilty conscience someone?

Here I am answering the question you were likely to ask next. Or was that not what you were getting at? I certainly wasn't thinking about it at the time. It was a blanket V/LA that I stated everywhere.

voting early =/= RVS

Are you trying to argue that your vote on Buck, after he voted and unvoted Immuno, was not an RVS but an early scum tell? Here again I see you debating semantics, instead of giving valid content so that we may judge for ourselves if what you are saying has merit or if you are just bullshitting.

If you think it's too early I challenge you to read Shadows and Lights, my (Sensual Koala) uptake on the BnB hydra's scumminess with their very first post.

I absolutely did not vote Buck randomly.

I absolutely voted Buck for a reason.

Here I see you trying to play around with my words. Why?

@Yiu: Lurking is not a scumtell. Depending on the player, defensiveness may not be either.
See me vs. fferyllt in the early part of N1351.

[goodmorning]

Not always, but it definitely shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's reasoning.

The forefront of my reasoning is that there is a very high chance that inside the 4, or 5 if you extend it to BW, of you that voted for RM there is at least 1 mafia.

And I find VCA to be problematic for a whole mess of other reasons, but that's more a discussion for postgame.

The rest is speculation so that: I can narrow it down, am able to get people's reactions and see what happens once I start applying pressure, à la bull in the china shop.

And how is that working out for you so far?

It does in some fashion point to at least one of the Scum having played Nacho before because this game has been not his best, but on the other hand it could just be that someone thought they saw him drop a PR tell or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to frame someone or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to confuse people or on and on and on.

This is why it is WIFOM. This is why it is dismissable.

At least you are making your point here, but I still disagree, if you are mafia and you know someone is going to go after you, you have a strong motivation to get rid of him/her. How do you rate jmo16mla as a mafia player?

Well then I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree on that.
I haven't seen jmo's play thus far, so I don't really know. Less than Nacho, but then I do mildly pedestalize Nacho.

If you think it's too early I challenge you to read Shadows and Lights, my (Sensual Koala) uptake on the BnB hydra's scumminess with their very first post.

If you often give early scumreads, sometimes you will get it right, maybe it makes sense for you but I can't really see someone picking up something by reading their first post.

I don't usually, sometimes it just happens. That's the point I was trying to make here.

I absolutely voted Buck for a reason.

What is this reason? Why did you never mention him during the day after switching your vote to me, then to JM and finally to RM? Why did you interact with him so little if you thought he was scum? You never asked him a question day 1, just answered when he prodded you.

I was watching. Some people are the type who crack under pressure, but others are the type who relax too far when there's no pressure at all.
The initial reason was his immuno vote.

Lurking is not a scumtell.

It should be, also you voted RM mainly for that over JM, which now apparently is a confirmed mafia to you.

Actually, I voted Rach for her bad vote on jmo. If she had flipped red then jmo would be nigh on confTown to me. But she flipped green, so I'm looking again at the reasons the jmo wagon failed.

[goodmorning]

And I find VCA to be problematic for a whole mess of other reasons, but that's more a discussion for postgame.

, do you also find power roles problematic? Because in that case we can just just use a random generator for lynches and see if we win the game. Jokes aside, every strategy in mafia uses incomplete information, so it's always going to be fallible, this does not mean you can't use it and most of the time if it's a reasonable strategy it will help you.

I do actually find PRs troublesome, but that's just personal preference. Like I say, though, more a discussion for postgame.

And how is that working out for you so far?

It's too early to say, at the very least it provides a lot of information. For instance, after having read your answers and some of your mafia defences I can say you are either upping your game here and fooling me our my accusations are wrong, still thinking about it. Look at it from my POV:

- Day 1 you only gave away reads when prodded, in answer to someone prodding you, or discussed theory points with us, which I guess is your way of being a dutiful IC so a nul.
- You have also been very wishy washy in your posts, you keep on saying stuff like, on the one hand x, but on the other hand y, which is very annyoing for townies because we don't know what you mean so you create confusion and very handy as a mafia player cause you can always reference one of the parts if you get under some heat.
- You said you weren't playing your best game, something often done to cover slip ups.
- You joined both bandwagons
- The only votes you started where on things other people thought poor, BW's immuno joke and my mistake about DC's role in the first setup.

Doesn't this look scummy to you?

You certainly have a point.
-I suppose I have been a bit distracted recently. I could say this was strategic of me, but it wasn't.
-I do that a lot. Sometimes I have reads I'm not sure of, and to put down exactly what I think and why can help me sort it or jog something in someone else who can.
-In all honesty, I haven't played a game I'd call "good" since AMURIKA (until my recent Donner Party, but that was largely in part to a good team).
-So I did.
-argumentum ad populum

I was watching. Some people are the type who crack under pressure, but others are the type who relax too far when there's no pressure at all.

It's a possible strategy, so did you get something from his day 1 after letting him relax? If the only thing you are going with is the immuno vote you'll have to agree it's a pretty weak read, at least from a logical point of view.

Not a lot.
Logic isn't the only way to scumhunt.

But she flipped green, so I'm looking again at the reasons the jmo wagon failed.

See that's in part my problem. You were the one who stopped it dead in it's tracks, if you had kept your vote on him then I would have argued with BW that even if he liked JM's defence JM made much more sense from a strategic point of view, his reaction then would have been telling. Let's also not forget we could all be townies going at each other, a possibility which you seem to be ignoring.

I'm not denying I'm one of the reasons.
I don't know who "all" is, but I know what my reads are and I don't tend to think of all situations in hypotheticals.

GM: I want to hear more from GM on why he has such high suspicions of me.

In time.

I find it rather stupid to not vote your top scum read... You should really think about what you just said.

Now, if I had to guess, scum team would be GM and maybe arc/brian.

VOTE: brian

Anybody see a problem with these two posts?

I guess I have to take over as IC since nacho is dead and any other SE isnt helping.

I'm offended.

That said, it's definitely a bad idea to lynch anyone til AA9 posts stuff.

I'm not the mod, I'm telling you, and anyone else in this game that if I'm lynched without declaring intent hammer, and giving me a chance, then they need to be auto lynched tomorrow. No if ands or butts.

This is stupid. Some players are like that. See Guyett's famous drunkhammers (as Town).

In fact, most policy lynches are stupid, and tend to get more so the further into the game it gets.

That said, I would definitely give the side-eye to someone who hammered here without intent.

[goodmorning]

Nobody yet picked up on the thing that I wanted them to pick up on. Why is it that my reaction tests never work?

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

[goodmorning]

It has little to do with this game and everything to do with the other focus of his attention, if I guessed right. I don't plan to vote for Brian at any point during this game and it wouldn't be bussing if I did.

Besides which, what need would I have to warn anyone I was going to bus them? When I'm Scum it's the first thing I post in the QT.

And I don't like your utter lack of curiosity about my reaction test.

[goodmorning]

@jmo: But I don't want

you

to bite.

@Crisp: Nice avoidance of my dislike there. Also nice sudden noticing of the part of my post I left for you pertaining to Buck.

When I say "I don't plan to vote for Brian" it means "I have a strong townread on Brian and I don't find it likely that anything would change that; if it did, that would be an unplanned eventuality".
Also, I tend to "plan" votes as Town more than as Scum. As Scum, one's voting is frequently reactionary, completely unplanned. As Town, one chooses votes more carefully and for a wider number of reasons.
No, Mafia in Newbie games absolutely does not have daytalk.

Unvote

[goodmorning]

Um, no.
No.

Nacho is a better player than any of us in this game. If you don't believe me you're welcome to go meta him.

And I said we would discuss why WIFOM is eminently dismissable postgame, unless you want to distract from actual gameplay to hold a theory discussion right now.
I did not say that we would not discuss your actual jmo reasoning.

Explain: if you at the time were saying jmo was Scum, and I at the time (as Scum) was trying to (mis)lynch jmo, then what would I gain from "dismissing" your reasoning, as you put it?

[goodmorning]

You weren't dismissing the Nacho kill with your reasoning. Even if you had been, who gives a shit? That he

is

dead is more relevant than

why

.

jmo has played plenty of games and is likely as familiar, if not more so, with Nacho as I am.

Nacho's content this game was not "qualitatively superior," as you put it.

[goodmorning]

So here I am finally back at my pc, first of all I'd like you all to notice how she is concentrating on some points of my accusation while completely ignoring others wheh she can't explain them away, like:

Besides which, what need would I have to warn anyone I was going to bus them? When I'm Scum it's the first thing I post in the QT.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know Mafia isn't allowed to talk separately during the day in newbie games, at least that's what I read in one of JMO's recent games, in this case you have every reason to try and communicate with your partner if the strategy you planned fell apart, if by any chanche I'm wrong then it was simply a slip.

No, Mafia in Newbie games absolutely does not have daytalk.

so the first post was a lie, as mafia she had a perfectly valid reason to do it, but let's not talk about it she says, and goes for:

1. No, it was not a lie. I would have no need to tell my partner I was going to bus them, as the first thing I post in Mafia QTs is "don't be surprised if I bus you."
2. Not having daytalk doesn't really matter, especially in a game this size. There are plenty of subtle ways to telegraph one's intentions anyway.

And I said we would discuss why WIFOM is eminently dismissable postgame, unless you want to distract from actual gameplay to hold a theory discussion right now.
I did not say that we would not discuss your actual jmo reasoning.

Implying that I said somewhere that GM would not discuss my JMO reasoning post game, which of course I never stated (lie number 2), what I did say instead is that GM knew my reasoning was bad because she already knew why Nacho was killed, she also told me she knew by stating we would discuss it post game (bad slip there).

- The truth (GM), crisP your reasoning about JMO is WIFOM and bad,

we will discuss it post game

, the Nacho kill had little to do with JM, the fact JM was then easier to lynch is just an added bonus!

So "your reasoning about jmo is WIFOM and bad, we will discuss it postgame" is what, exactly?
And what I am stating we will discuss postgame, again, is theory questions (why is WIFOM bad, why do I find VCA/NKA bad, etc.).

Nacho is a better player than any of us in this game. If you don't believe me you're welcome to go meta him.

Truth as she believes it, but completely unrelated to my line of questioning, part of GM's general MO of trying to mix as much truth as possible in her lies to appear convincing.

If you think I have a problem lying as Mafia then maybe you need to go meta me a bit better.

That he is dead is more relevant than why.

To you maybe, since your win condition is to kill off townies, for me the why is important because it can lead to the who did it, also another attempt to deflect away from the point I made about why she behaved like that.

The why could be any one of ten reasonable reasons and countless more unreasonable ones. Unless you are Scum, you cannot know which. To propose that important opinions should be based on conjecture is frankly ridiculous.

Have a good look at this again and at her explaination

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

It has little to do with this game and everything to do with the other focus of his attention, if I guessed right

first she asks me why she did not play like a pre programmed robot and then she explains that cryptic message as saying she was referring to some out of game nonsence, clearly the truth as it often does lies in the middle.

Um, no.
It's not something I can talk about, because ongoing games and not-mine-to-tells, but basically I was glad he was distracted by the other thing, but also sad he was away from this one.
That's the conflict of interest. It's my interest in this game vs the other thing.

I'd also like to repeat that all Brian did in this game, ISO him please, is defend GM, attack those who attacked GM and piggyback GM's reads, plus some fluffy questions about people's play he never bother to follow up on.

Do you think these actions tell on his alignment? On mine? Show your work.

Note as well how she hurried to unvote JM, by far her biggest suspect, or are you now claiming JM was never a suspect? And how now she keeps appealing to him in her posts (please don't vote me JM! CrisP is a jerk and you know it ), this is mafia trying to save her skin at it's best.

Why would I claim jmo was never a suspect?
What makes you think he's presently my

biggest

suspect?
Where was I appealing to him in my posts?

1. Nobody questioned my alignment while I was attacking JM, other than Brian, he gave a strong town read with one problem, he says he is worried about associative tells, that's the mafia cop out strategy if something goes wrong. So just from that by the way JM is actually the best town read we have, even assuming GM BR is not the mafia pair, it means mafia wants JM lynched, and

GM voting JM from the start of day 2 takes on a new level of scummy.

Giving a Town read =/= questioning somebody's alignment.
Also, this point appears to have little to do with me, excepting the underlined.
As to that:
Which would be scummy at the beginning of D2: me voting my strongest scumread, me voting a weaker scumread, me voting a townread, or me not voting at all?
And which would be the towniest?

2. What happened after GM posts her second defence, first she appeals to logic, which she thinks, and you are right!, is the best argument to make to convince me, in order for JM to look bad (post 350), then once she realizes she is flogging a dead horse she sends her cryptic message to Brian, and finally starts to question my alignment.

Please demonstrate where I began to question your alignment. Also please include quotes, if you can find them.
Also, which of these is scummy: questioning someone's alignment, or acting as though one knows?
And which would be the towniest?

Please actually respond to what I'm saying instead of what you seem to think I'm saying. I find your misrepping disingenuous.

P-EDIT:

Actually I just noticed I still made one mistake, this:

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

is not GM telling Brian she is going to buss him, this is GM telling Brian to start executing the cop out strategy, we have a conflict of interest with CrisP (because he doesn't want to kill JM anymore), my senses are tingling (and well they should since she posted this just after I told Brian I was disappointed he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum).

And that, I think, is the nail to the coffin.

1. For conflict of interest discussion see above
2. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

sorry

sorry

it's just

I told Brian I was disappointed he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum

he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum

implying I thought he was scum

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i mean, usually i try not to be a dick but the massive weight of your bullshit just broke my civility filter

[goodmorning]

Read up to post 374 so far:
Really Gm, not going to vote brian this game? What has he done to give you such a great town read. There is no way he should be in anyone's definite town pile unless they know something we don't. So why is Brian so town to you?

It's almost entirely for his catching-up post: when someone seems to come to the same conclusions as you do and says the things that you were thinking, that person is usually on your team.

I do find your attempt to drown the whole thing into walls of text rather tedious though.

You accused me of selectively responding to your points.

So I decided I'd respond to all of them, like you asked.

"1. No, it was not a lie. I would have no need to tell my partner I was going to bus them, as the first thing I post in Mafia QTs is "don't be surprised if I bus you."
2. Not having daytalk doesn't really matter, especially in a game this size. There are plenty of subtle ways to telegraph one's intentions anyway."

Just b/c u tell your partner you will bus them does not mean you could not make use of a signal for a change in game plan.

Signals can be anything, including "if I'm going to start bussing I'll start my next post with the word 'really'" or "if I investigate him as JK I'll start my first post with a k".
Why, then, would anyone use such an obvious signal to their partner when a non-obvious one would do?

"The why could be any one of ten reasonable reasons and countless more unreasonable ones. Unless you are Scum, you cannot know which. To propose that important opinions should be based on conjecture is frankly ridiculous."

The why is just of not more important than the fact as it promotes discussion. Only mafia would rather have ppl ignore the kill. Also, it one can get reads off of reactions to a kill.

The problem with this is that the discussion it promotes is ultimately pretty useless as far as the actual game. Like I said, there are quite a lot of reasons an NK could happen, and unless you're the Scum and you

know

, then it's just chasing shadows.

"Um, no.
It's not something I can talk about, because ongoing games and not-mine-to-tells, but basically I was glad he was distracted by the other thing, but also sad he was away from this one.
That's the conflict of interest. It's my interest in this game vs the other thing."
I think he's saying he is in another game with Brian and it is giving him info? Did I just break a rule?

That's not really what I'm saying, it isn't anything about info, and you didn't break a rule but you're pushing it.

Curious about your butting in.

So "your reasoning about jmo is WIFOM and bad, we will discuss it postgame" is what, exactly?

It means you find it bad because you know beforehand that it's wrong, so naturally that reinforces your belief that WIFOM dicussion in general is problematic and you are going to say so after the game. If you were not mafia, you would not be so sure about it is the assumption.

I think you need to reply to this one again in context, because that is not what I was asking.

Do you think these actions tell on his alignment? On mine? Show your work.

They show there is a connection between the two of you so you probably share the same alignment, it's not something that happens very often by chance, and is more likely to happen to the 2 mafia than 2 random townies because the two mafia know they have a common goal, so yes, yes, and here you go.

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of whiteknighting?

Why would I claim jmo was never a suspect?

Based on what you are currently stating or not stating about your Buck read, early, not random, reaction test, who knows.

When did I say it was a reaction test?

What makes you think he's presently my biggest suspect?

You said you had 2 suspects at the start of day 2, since what you are doing with the Buck read is very murky, that leaves JMO. Again a question about sematics that has no bearing with the accusations per se, the accusation being you are voting someone that mafia probably wants to kill, the reason behind this is nobody really questioned my alignment up to now, the assumption being mafia would try to question my alignment or discredit me like you did with your p-edit if I was heading a lynch against a mafia.

Presently, it is no longer the start of Day 2.
Is it a bad thing to question one's reads?

Where was I appealing to him in my posts?

Appealing in the sense of look, I respect you JM and I'm unvoting you:

jmo has played plenty of games and is likely as familiar, if not more so, with Nacho as I am.

I don't unvote people because I respect them, and allowing that he may have more experience with Nacho than I do is hardly an appeal.
I unvote people for one reason and one reason only.

Which would be scummy at the beginning of D2: me voting my strongest scumread, me voting a weaker scumread, me voting a townread, or me not voting at all?
And which would be the towniest?

This is another attempt to bog down the issue with a pop quiz, the point is JM is likely to be town, you should have likely noticed, but you were still voting him

This is an attempt to dodge any admission of incorrectness.
Actually your answers to the direct questions (including the ones you didn't include) were the most important things about that post. But you didn't give any.

Actually your massive use of walls of text is another tell, why would town want to create so much content it's very much impossible to sift through it, find the good stuff and the nonsense, only mafia profits from the total confusion you appear to be trying to create.

If you think I wall, wait til you play with mastin.

Hmmmmm I really need a reread.

[goodmorning]

Actually your massive use of walls of text is another tell, why would town want to create so much content it's very much impossible to sift through it, find the good stuff and the nonsense, only mafia profits from the total confusion you appear to be trying to create.

If you think I wall, wait til you play with mastin.

Also: pot, meet kettle.

[goodmorning]

Your walls are walls of questions to others, which would require even longer walls to answer, to which you then reply with other questions, often generic in nature, that would create a longer wall if answered. Most of my long posts were opinions I had at the time, reasons why I was accusing someone or more in general stuff you could just read about, get a read on me based on what I was saying and agree or disagree on.

My questions to you are vitally important to my read of you, generic as they may seem.
Also, many of the things in your long posts were not exactly kosher.

Everyone is a white knight this game it appears, yes I have heard of it and since when does white-knighting include piggybacking on someone's reads? Also I would understand him white-knighting you now but he did so when there was no reason to as well.

Equally possible that it's just buddying or any one of a number of other things.

Basically Brian has been an extension of you this whole game, I find that very strange, I find also very strange that your reaction to his behavior is: he is clearly town, if that happened to me I'd be suspicious as fuck about the guy doing it.

Indeed.

I agree with you that Buck chiming in is strange, I think it was probably a good natured attempt to help but it's the kind of thing you can easily misinterpret, so I'll have a re-read as well.

Actually I ultimately find his chimed-in answers somewhat satisfying.

[goodmorning]

My questions to you are vitally important to my read of you, generic as they may seem.

Ok, tell me again what you want me to answer and keep it reasonable and I'll do my best to answer the question directly and not the context you pick them from

Basically anything from my last couple posts with a question mark after it that's in response to you, if you don't mind.

Equally possible that it's just buddying or any one of a number of other things.

Definitely, most of which should raise a big red flag for you from my POV, so I don't understand your blanket statement on not planning a Brian vote at all. Or are you saying that Brian as town usually buddies up with you, do you have an example if this is the case?[/quote]
My Brian townread is independent of his actions and is based solely on his words.

[goodmorning]

Thank you.

As far as the last quote goes, I was referring to my most recent post before that one.

Second-to-last is still out of context but I'm not too fussed about it in comparison to the rest.

[goodmorning]

General etiquette on this site is to not hammer without at least having a claim.

Nobody brought up this point when RM got lynched, if this is standard practice then GM saying RM looked very scummy for doing it is pretty bad as well.

What are you talking about?

This, so fuck-off from this particular line of logic before somebody gets mod-killed.

One of the reasons I thought out of game stuff was improbable was because you had just all told me it was explicity disallowed, she should not have posted it in the first place then.

Not being allowed to discuss it =/= not being allowed to mention it, so long as it's not obvious what you're talking about.

@Brian: I want you do take an in-depth look at my interactions with CrisP and give your thoughts/analysis.

@CrisP: Yui is Town and obviously so.
My most recent opinion of Buck is leaning that way too, as you so conveniently ignored.

[goodmorning]

What are you talking about?

A big part of me accusing her was that she decided to claim VT, something that in my games you never (!) do, why would you claim VT, if the lynch doesn't go through then mafia knows you are not a power role and can ignore you as a NK for the rest of the game. But if this is standard practice before a lynch here (why?) then the only thing I really had against her was her very poor motivation for voting JM plus her lurking being a reinforcing factor.

But what does that have to do with me?

As far as Rach goes, it's not something she couldn't do as Town, but quite frankly it's incredibly scummy of her.

Are you referring solely to her voting for JM here? Because the way I read it at the time included her claim as well.

Yes, solely to her vote. Was a p. terrible vote.

@CrisP: Yui is Town and obviously so.

Nonsence on the obviously, unless you are coming out as mafia and telling me he is town? I played at least 3 live games where one guy faked being new at the game and then turned out to be mafia but nobody thought he was scum and we did not lynch him. However while I'm not sure at all, I'm leaning town on him.

As you told me, what is better, to question one's reads or to take them as given?[/quote]
GIF was pretty blatantly Town and Yui hasn't done anything to make me question that.

Also if you unvoted JM for one reason and one reason only, and I presume here that you mean that you don't think he is scum anymore, then please give me your current mafia reads.

I unvoted jmo because he is no longer my strongest scumread.

I didn't revote because I'm in the process of rereading.

I think I know who I'd like to vote, but it depends on that reread and besides I can get better reactions currently if I don't.

[goodmorning]

ughhhh site disturbances

[goodmorning]

@Brian: I really would like to know what you think of CrisP.

[goodmorning]

And I find it hard to believe a player would get driven to L-1, be forced to claim VT, and not get hammered.

This actually does happen. Happened to me once even, though I did end up getting lynched anyway because we were so close to deadline and my wagon was the only viable one.

Though it's not usual and especially not in situations where it could be a game-ruining mistake.

[goodmorning]

Again, while I present to you a logical argument to why you are full of crap on the VT claim, look at your reaction.

What you are saying is, since everybody claims VT, that must be the right thing to do, regardless of how flawed it is.

Let me try to IC this to bed:
She claimed VT because that is telling us "I am not a PR, it is OK to lynch me."
Yes, occasionally people will believe this and not lynch said person. Yes, that does limit the NK pool for Scum.
However, this almost never happens, and especially not with any smaller a playerlist than D1 one of a Mini, and especially especially not in Micros because it would be much more limiting (down to 5 or 6 on D1 of a Micro vs. 8 or 9 on D1 of a Mini vs. really a whole lot on D1 of a Large).
Newbie games are Micro sized.

Can we stop arguing about this now and pay attention to the game?


Not a huge fan of the way CrisP accuses Brian of going for low-hanging fruit as to AA9 when CrisP is urging that lynch on.
For that matter, not a huge fan of the way CrisP has been insinuating that wagon without having been on it for a while now.

AA9 looks Town here, IMO. Will probably re-meta within the next couple days.

Aggressive playing is not mafia, looking for information is not mafia (which is not equal to seeking lynch targets), there are so many reasons I can't be mafia in this game your statement is just funny.

This sentence basically says this: look at all the Town things I'm doing! There's no way anyone who acts Town can be Scum!

For someone who's supposedly spent the whole game acting Town, you've done an awful lot of telling us that.

GM is your townread of Brian more of a day1 or of a day2 read?

It was a D1 read. Now that he's started posting more, it's both.

I do have a shiny new D2 scumread that I've been working up to voting, though. Anyone want to tell me who they think it is?

[goodmorning]

As I said even in this case that play is bad, I'll stop arguing with you about it when everyone understands the point. I've noticed by the way that neither JM nor AA deiceded to claim VT at L-1 either.

We also have plenty of time til deadline, as you may notice.
And that's all I'll say about that.

[goodmorning]

If Brian or jmo hasn't discussed this readslist by tomorrow RT then I'm going to do an in-depth on it.

[goodmorning]

V/LA til Saturday evening EST

Also now that I can speak about since it just ended check out mafia GM in game 1447, in particular look at how she and her partner where the only ones not voting on a town day 2. That's another reason why I am not keen on the AA lynch.

1. AA is Town.
2. That didn't happen on purpose. The day was cut short by the reconciliation of a Mod votecount error.
3.

Vote: CrisP

4. I am so tired of this game.

[goodmorning]

Can you tell us why?

AA9, lynch CrisP with me today and Buck tomorrow.

[goodmorning]

I don't feel as certain of Buck as I do of CrisP but hey, what is compromise for?

Brian should definitely not be lynched today.

[goodmorning]

WTF? more certain of crisp than me? Crisp is the towniest motherfucker here. And now he's gone. <vote>goodmorning</vote>. This guy is grasping for straws.

CrisP is not Town.

Or did you completely miss all of his misrepping and question dodging?

Effort is not indicative of alignment.

[goodmorning]

First read through of the game gave me the impression Goodmorning is quite the weaksauce poster here. He applies very few pressure. Even though he has the second most posts in this game, his actual influence and presence seems very slim. Scumread.

ArcAngle also appears suspicious to me. She repeatedly states that 'this behaviour can't be town' (refering to ChrisP). ChrisP has to be scum and even if he is town it's worth it to lynch him. Yet ArcAngel jumps off the wagon because ArcAngel doesn't have time for ChrisP and doesn't want to waste her vote on ChrisP... I have no clue what this is supposed to mean and the vote on Buckwild for OMGUS reasons seems a shitty replacement for it.

Since it's almost night time I don't really feel like putting up a townlist here. You'll have to make do with my scumreads. Between these two I really feel like lynching Goodmorning more. His 'hey what is compromise for?' is just straight up disturbing. There are two scum among us so making compromises is just a really bad idea and Goodmorning should know this.

Malakittens

: Could you post the exact deadline? Not sure how much time is remaining. If the deadline is reached before I post again I would like to make use of the extra 24 hours.

Vote: Goodmorning

That's L-2. Depending on how much time remains and people's willingness to vote Goodmorning, I might switch to ArrcAngel.

1. Complete/near-complete retention of slot reads makes me an uncomfortable facepalmcat.
2. Which is worse, to compromise wagon at deadline on your other scumread, or to no-lynch?

@jmo: please post something useful. While you're at it, go meta AA9. Pay special attention to night actions and D1 claims in Rach's Narnia Micro. That goes for MG too.

[goodmorning]

Which is worse, to compromise wagon at deadline on your other scumread, or to no-lynch?

False dilemma. What you should do is push for your scumreads, not 'compromise or no-lynch'.
By the way, your compromise on Buckwild makes no sense. The last time you mentioned him was on November 20th and at that time you had him as leaning town. What changed your mind?

Not a false dilemma. What else is there to do when you have pushed your strongest scumread but only one other player thinks he's anything but obvTown?
As to Buck, I went back and reread him. Ultimately his satisfactory answers to questions of mine meant for another are not enough for me to find him towny.

[goodmorning]

Oh, @Mala: Your most recent votecount has CrisP on it still.

[goodmorning]

@Yiu: Why don't you want to lynch Mg?

@jmo: am I to assume that you're more likely to compromise onto my wagon than anywhere else?

[goodmorning]

Which is why I'm asking you.

[goodmorning]

I am not unwilling to selfhammer but I really don't want to.

@jmo: hmmm.

[goodmorning]

Anybody here?

[goodmorning]

Thisssss sucksssss

Vote: gm

If Mg isn't tomorrow's lynch I will be disappointed, barring exceptional circumstances.

Also of the playerlist the only one who was visibly onsite after their last post ITT was AA9, though that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Bye Mala </3

[goodmorning]

I see this game is over. Disagree somewhat on CrisP. Right idea, but needs to stop putting words in people's mouths.

[goodmorning]

CrisP played very well imo. Very active and decently assertive. Mafia is mostly about getting correct reads. It's not a townie's job to concern themselves with 'acting like town'. A townie's job is to pressure other players and read them correctly. In that regard, I don't think it's fair that Goodmorning blames Crisp for her own incorrect read. Crisp had plenty of content up. If you read that incorrectly, you'll have to look at your own mistakes first before blaming others.

I don't blame CrisP for my incorrect read on him.

I blame him for misrepping literally* every single thing that I said.

*Actual literally, not "I literally died" literally.

I want especially to congratulate Jmo for getting me to 180 on him D2.