Mewbie 1442 the second -- Game over

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Confirmed.

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VOTE: DiamondCrash

For claiming VT last game when there was only 1 of that role and it was not you buddy!

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Heh my bad

UNVOTE:

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Two reasons:

- I didn't see nacho's post about who was scum until after I wrote it (from my phone), and had I seen it I would still not know for sure if what he said is true.

- Why would he lie about his role were he town, he has no incentive do to so, were he mafia he might, plus it's often telling how people react when caught in a lie.

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Of course we are all fishing at the moment GM, still you could try to be proactive instead of defensive, I liked the vote on me plus discussion, given my mistake about the game setup last time it's reasonable, but you could have elaborated more and after that you spent your time defending yourself, which is not pro town in my eyes, there's not much you can say to defend yourself at the start so you might as well show you are town by helping and ignore the random heat (if you're town).

Newb scum like to unvote quickly when they realize they're wrong. Typically they don't move their vote to someone. I'm keeping my eyes on Chrisp, but he's town right now.

I'm new on mafiascum but I have played a lot of IRL mafia for years.

In my opinion newbs lurk, especially if they are mafia. I want to point out to BW, since he didn't believe me at the time, that following that rule last game we would have found the two mafia after 40 posts day 1.

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I'm not sure what GM could have said to the statement "youre scum" [sic] that isn't "hah no".

She could have said: why do you think I am mafia, or I'm not mafia and it's interesting you think so (cause in her mind that person is either mistaken or faking it), and these are just two replies that come to mind after 5 seconds of thought, I'm sure there are a lot of possibilities, being defensive is not wrong per se (as a human reaction it's a null tell or slightly scummy if you are playing against an expierienced mafia player), but it doesn't help the rest of town if that is her alignment.

If you ask me, I think the idea of stimulating discussion can be very easily done by anyone, town or not. Moreover, why would a townsperson not be defensive while on the recieving end of the heat; and why would that be a bad thing for a townsperson to do?

Interesting opinion, which I completely disagree on. Why would mafia be interested in stimulating discussion? They have more information than anyone else in the game at the moment so for every thing they say they risk exposure, not to mention the more information you give to the rest of town the easier it is late game to determine what alignment you are (by looking at who you went against, who you voted, who you deflected for, what you posted), mafia just wants a confused or lynch hungry town so they can play pro mafia and not stand out. This is also one of the main reasons I will happily lynch possible quiet town if no consensus is reached on someone that looks mafia, especially day one, otherwise you risk lynching someone you should not have at a critical moment if that person has given you nothing to work on up till that point to determine his/her alignment.

Coincidence does not equal evidence, I'm afraid, and I'm one of those tricky people who insists on a bit more than "they're not here mostly" as a reason. Also; I don't see how that relates to that jmo16mla quote at all.

Well are you implying that I asked for a lynch on whoever hasn't spoken till now? Otherwise the non sequitor is in your comment, not mine. Mine relates in the sense that in my experience newbs as jmo called them don't behave in the manner he described, now it could be I never paid attention or noticed this pattern, it could be what he said is not true and that's why I highlighted it, tell me that is not pertinent.

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Because if you ask me, there is.

VOTE: Buckwild

There definitely is, but it's too early to say if it's because he has been busy or because he is scum, I also had the wrong read on him at the start of last game... but I do like the vote on him to see his response though.

Why would mafia be interested in stimulating discussion?

To make themselves look Town.

Exactly, but if mafia has to try to look like town then we are already doing great, plus it's not something that comes natural to first time / unexperienced players.

It's difficult to make many judgement calls when most of the playerlist hasn't been posting.

I agree, that's why I don't like quiet players.

P-EDIT
oooohhhhh, I think I have a townread now

Are you implying that BW is town in your opinion since you believe GIF to be scum? If so why are you voting me and not him, do you think we are mafia buddies? If not who is your town read and how come you said so right after GIF's post about BW?

Yeah, that last game...well...it was something, that's for sure.

Here is someone who is acting exactly like in the last game, and that's not good considering you were mafia last time, do you have something to add to the discussion?

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Bandwagoning is done a lot in early stages to build pressure and garner up reactions while to see if any other people jump on it opportunistically. So wagonning early is null.

BW I also agree with nacho and GIF that his vote is in lane with the usual behavior, this is a quote from his last game with us where he says the same thing basically.

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I also don't like you aggroing him after he cast suspicion on you, seems more of a mafia than a town play.

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GM said the same thing about GIF and gave a somewhat convincing reply to my questions, especially because she volunteered a read on someone I also think is possibly town, the only part I don't like is:

2. I'm voting you because I didn't like whatever it was I didn't like. I think it was a vote and an unvote, but I don't really remember.

seems kind of sloppy à là I mafia and making up stuff, but over all it looks more like "I'm town and I can't be assed to check at the moment" so overall she is my (very mild) first town read. Sorry for the multi posts

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Is there an IC in this game? Because if there is and this town vegetation continues I would like to flag him/her for doing a terrible job, not that this excuses most of the other townies here in any way.

In the vain hope that someone wants to talk but doesn't know what to say, here are some meaningful points that have emerged up to now:

- was my vote on DC a mistake or was it a slip up? -> started out when I voted DC in post 36 because he claimed VT and I implicitly claimed I was the VT and there was only 1 VT in the setup -> DC pointed out that in last game's setup up to 6 VT's were possible so my accusation was unfounded in post 37 -> I recognized my mistake in post 44 and unvoted -> JM asked me to explain my play in post 45 which I did in post 46 -> GM voted for me in post 47 and asked town to discuss the vote -> JM said in various posts that my reasoning appeared townish but at the same time said he was keeping an eye on me because switching vote quickly when you realize you made a mistake is often a noob mafia mistake -> I disputed that point in post 68 -> DC asked for clarification / disputed my post in post 69 -> I answered in post 70 -> currently still being voted by GM.

- Is IamDrRobot playing like last game and is she therefore mafia? -> started by me pointing it out -> RM clarified / defended / deflected (depending on how you interpret her post) in post 87
-> was followed up by Nacho in post 97 -> IamDrRobot went afk till 4.11 in post 99 -> currently still being voted by Nachomamma8

- Is GIF scummy? -> started with a cross vote with Nachomamma8 and GIF in the first posts of the game -> GIF was the third vote on GM in post 42 -> BW pointed that out, thinks it is a scum play and asked town to lynch GIF -> Nacho, after asking GIF for some clarification, GM and myself pointed out that it doesn't look so scummy if you consider how GIF usually plays and what he thinks of early bandwagoning -> BW is not convinced, is he right, is he confused town or is he scum trying to make a play stick? -> currently still being voted by BW

- Is GM scummy? -> started when GM voted BW in post 28 after BW voted for someone not in game by mistake -> Nacho, JM and GIF quickly voted GM for this, Nacho said it was a bad reason to vote someone (p.30), JM did not explain his reasoning but later asked BW why he didn't question his vote when he accused GIF (see is GIF scummy?) and GIF said he was sheeping JM (JM asked town to vote GM in post 41-> I asked GM to clarifly some points in posts 68, 70 and 82 -> she answered in post 71 and 103 -> GIF did the same and GM replied in post 77 -> currently still being voted by JM.

Now people please just post something.

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I point you to: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _a_good_IC and in particular

Don't lurk:

Lurking kills newbie games. There are only 7-9 players in the game as is, so there are a decreased number of people posting in the game to begin with. Do not subtract from that number. Make an effort to post in the game, and post regularly. As an IC you are at least partially responsible for the flow of the game, because very often the other players in the game will not understand why more discussion is a good thing. You want to lead by example. Secondly, you want to give the newbies a good first experience. GAMES WHERE NO ONE IS POSTING ARE NOT FUN. Give them a fun game. Give yourself a fun game. Don't lurk.

Newbies get paralyzed all the time, trying to sort out what happens next. When ICs lurk, it provides an example that this is 'how it's done' on this site, which hurts every game they will be in in the future until/unless they learn otherwise. - Mr. Flay

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DC doesn't seem that town this game.

why?

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Because I thought the setup was the same as the one posted in the forum thread, not that you would pick a row or a column and fill the rest with vanilla town or mafia goons as explained in the wiki.

If that would have been the case then there was just one vanilla town (me), hence DC could not have been one also.

As to why I thought that was pertinent to this game, see my post 46 in answer to JM.

Now Rach, you could have easily gathered this information without asking by reading, I actually made a summary for you on post 120, so my question to you is why are you asking me to explain this again?

Regarding the JM vs GM issue, it would help a lot if you posted reasons for what you are doing instead of just saying someone is scum. I'm in favor of putting the heat on JM, GM has been under observation for a while now and most people I have in my "very tentative" town circle, seem to be ok with her for now, JM on the other hand hasn't really been questioned and has just been giving random statements without explaining himself. The same goes for BW, I wouldn't mind upping the pressure on him either.

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Not here. Lurking tends to be a nulltell on MS. There are newbtown and newbscum tells, but lurking is not one of them. I sometimes lurk when RL is being a PITA, and my fiance is a notorious lurker. (NS as in Nobody Special, not notscience).

However I am getting a towny feel for you even if there are things you are offbase on. like the above. You go in the town pile.

If this is the case on MS then towns in MS need to step up their game, lurking is not an acceptable town practice. I don't think this is the case though, having meta'd a few people and read some of the award winning threads. Whether you are saying this to justify your general play, GIF called you a notorius lurker, or because you are mafia and want to avoid putting attention on the other quiet people and yourself is a question town should ponder. My opinion is that it's more the first than the second, here's why.

However I am getting a towny feel for you even if there are things you are offbase on. like the above. You go in the town pile.

wow just wow this game

ok all caught up. GM would love more from you since you are the IC and I dont want to step on your toes here


uggh sorry your laptop got stolen that totally sucks Nacho Post when you can I need to peg if you are scum or town in this game ASAP.


Now that you are back from V/LA, IDR I would like to hear more from you.


jmo so you were scumz last round eh? Could you explain why you think GM is scum?

This analysis, after you read all the posts, is honestly not great, you basically sheep me but there are two small bits of content that make me like you a bit better:

1. Pinging Nacho is original content and either a good mafia play, I specifically left Nacho out from my pressure post above to see who would pick up on it, his MO can be described in exactly the same way as JM's

2. Pointing out that IamDr's V/LA has endeed and he hasn't posted yet is also a good point, it's also not consistent of the RM trying to avoid putting attention on quiet people, I still wanted to bring up the possibility because not knowing you I am not confident enough of my reads and I want the rest of town to have as much information as possible.

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I did not finish one sentence, too tired:

1. Pinging Nacho is original content and either a good mafia play or standard town, I specifically left Nacho out from my pressure post above to see who would pick up on it and him, because I believe he is a good town ping at the moment, his MO can be described in exactly the same way as JM's after all.

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I'd like to know if your townread on jmo comes from anything other than "earnestness".

I agree, I liked nacho's posts after the ping but since RM marked him as a good player and I have no reason to disbelieve the statement it could easily be good mafia playing as town, the only thing I found very strange was the read on JM you gave.

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Nope. Is that not enough for you?

Nacho is that based on a gut read that he looks town by the way he talks or has it something to do with one of these reasonings:

- If Jmo pushes hard on GM and GM gets lynched, the chance of him getting lynched next round goes up dramatically if GM was confirmed town. 1 mafia for 1 town in this setup is not worth it, so a mafia might not want to take that risk.

- Do you think JM is soft claiming

Does anyone else feel earnestness from jmo?

I feel like he wants to lynch you pretty hard, whether this is earnestness or something else is an open question for me.

Because he thinks he can get me lynched.
In other words:
Either because he's Town and thinks I'm Scum he can get lynched, or because he's Scum and thinks I'm Town he can get lynched.

That's an odd way of phrasing it, it looks like you tried really hard to make it as neutral as possible to avoid slip-ups, you just need to change town and scum in the two sentences and they are interchangable but:

If he thinks you are scum does he care if he can get you lynched? I would just push for it regardless and hope to convince the rest of town, unless I happened to have another strong mafia read which the rest of town agrees on as well, which is pretty unlikely day one. Also do you think you are an easy lynch at this time?

Why can't I be scum with you, bussing you?

It's a possibility but does this play really make sense now with this setup? What does the fact she left this out tell you, is she thinking like a town and you like a mafia?

So you think im town?

I see you as slightly scummy at the moment, because I'm slightly town on GM, if you manage to convince a majority of town to lynch GM and she actually comes out as mafia then my view would shift dramatically and you would be almost confirmed town, the buss play is still something to keep in mind but at the moment it doesn't really make sense in my mind.

Fixed the broken quotes ~ Mala

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Thanks & sorry!

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Now, if only "lynch all newb-lurkers" actually worked as a viable scum-tell. The first time I ever played Mafia, I rolled scum and I promise you I did not lurk. I took control of the town and lynched every person I wanted to.

Good for you, please post a link to the game in question. This is a highly dangerous strategy that never works against good players for more than a few rounds because you are either mafia killing town or a misguided town lynching the wrong people, nobody would then follow your reads after a certain point and if you further tried to lead town after failing everyone else would see you as highly suspicious. Furthermore once a town is lynched you can revisit all the motivations that led to that lynch and if you actually were the one going for it the chance you slipped is higher, especially if you are a new mafia player.

70 Let's say you lynch a quiet player and they indeed flip town. Then what? You're back to the same boat but the player never gave you any information to work with. If you want a particular player to produce you content, take the initiative and engage them.

Totally disagree with this, first you reduce the suspect pool because the quiet town was inherently suspicious as there is no way to get a read on him, second you avoid worring about a future mislynch at lylo, thirdly it's the players own fault if he gets lynched and he was town, there is no reason to "take the initiative" and make him produce content, he is responsible for showing the rest of us he is town and finally you know his alignment so you have more information than before the lynch which you can use to re-read previous posts of other people who actually produced content. This said, we tried prodding IamDr multiple times, since this game was going nowhere.

How the hell did you get two completely different reactions meshed together like that?

That was not a reaction, that's what I read about her post after analyizing it, I liked the part where she gave a town read, have to say by the way I'm liking it less and less since she has been giving town reads left right and centre, albeit well motivated, and I did not like the deflection so much, so I explained what could be behind it given both possible scenarios. I also find it important to always give my thought process when writing so everyone else who is town can get a read off of that and come back to it if they need to make a decision on my alignment in the future.

120 1) I think people just find it suspicious when you try to direct blame onto a player for what they did in a previous game.

What they might have found suspicious is that I wrongly accused DC, saying that meta gaming is suspicious is just weird, of course you will compare a player to how he played and what he did in another game to see if it's his usual style. Take the GIF sheep for instance, the fact he stated in a previous game that sheeping is done at the start to put pressure on someone and see how they react makes it less likely he is mafia, if BW were to sheep someone in a future game that would be an insta-tell for me, given how he is reacting to people sheeping and his general play style.

2) If you haven't seen her town-game, how can you discern?

Is there a need to discern when she was either mafia or bad town and a good lynch anyway?

So to sum this up, you produced a lot of content, most of it is questioning other people's plays and some of it is defending your slot, the first part is fine and what I would also do as new town coming into the game, the second part I don't buy at all but it's more IamDr's fault for putting you into this position than yours so I'll try to play as if she never did at least day 1.

I also see there are some murky reads hidden in the posts, which I would like you to make explicit, so here's my invitation: please give us your top mafia and top town reads.

A LOT of those post show me creating discussion... typically indicative of town players..

I don't see that at all, a lot of his posts make you look suspicious.

I like where we are going now because I can clearly see two factions emerging with JM and Nacho (btw Nacho kindly answer the open questions we have for you) on one side and GM and BR on the other.

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I realize this is a question for Brian, but I can back this up too. See N1305 for my first real Scum game, in which I posted as much as I possibly could, and MN1420 for my first SK game, in which I only killed Town, claimed Vig, was somehow believed, and won anyway.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. Your description of the second game just shows how hard it is though, after killing town you had to make a PR claim to carry it out and that's always an iffy proposition at best, if mafia has to make plays to win then town is already in a better position compared to the everybody lurks and we RL scenario that a set of IamDr players would create.

While we are on the subject of meta and GM, if you are town and have a bit of time check out her other newbie game in progress, 1447.

As far as theory goes on this one, these are pretty much the two sides to the argument.
It's usually pretty well accepted to lynch slots which are detrimental to Town before LyLo in many games. That said, this game is Micro-sized, so these sorts of lynches will happen less often.

Where are the two sides, you just say it's pretty well accepted . Moreover, why would that be the case in a micro game, if anything having a small game requires you to get rid of potentially dangerous slots faster given how quickly you can get to lylo, whereas you can afford a random lynch in bigger games just to get more information.

A question for you: would giving lots of townreads make it easier for me if I were Scum, or harder?

Ultimately, like any other information you give, it makes it harder for you as mafia, but:

1. 3 town reads is not going overboard even as mafia.
2. Sometimes mafia say so and so is town based on their comments because they think everyone else will also pick up on how towny someone is being, forgetting that the rest of us don't know that person's alignment, so what for them is a clear tell for us is not at all.
3. It dilutes the importance of you giving that first read on GIF, if you are generally free with your town reads what could have been a tell is now a null for me.

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@mod Mala it's past time you prodded DC, 6 days and counting from his last post.

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[quote="Nachomamma8]Cris, why aren't you voting?[/quote]

I am waiting for some people to post

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sorry mala I keep forgetting the second " when I'm using mobile devices

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Why are you pressuring me for my vote, are you getting nervous?

I do have a series of scenarios each with their own scumreads, the posts I am waiting for should help to narrow it down before it's time to commit my vote.

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It's anti town to not use your vote...

who said anything about not using it, I said I'm going to give it after a few key people post. Why are you misrepresenting?

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Excellent BW, I was waiting for RM too (you bad town lurker), but after the last Nacho and jmo interaction I honestly think the game is over.

First of all let me explain the reason for my vote delay.

After I wrote in post 181:

I like where we are going now because I can clearly see two factions emerging with JM and Nacho (btw Nacho kindly answer the open questions we have for you) on one side and GM and BR on the other.

My biggest worry was the outside chance that both these two "factions" are townies going against each other, and that mafia are the quiet lurkers, i.e. RM BW and/or Angel. If they were mafia, then they would have 0 interest in posting at this time, let the confused town lynch each other and if necessery throw in votes seperately to hide in one of the two bandwagons in order to get someone lynched.

The fact that BW has given some of his reads at this time, all original content which I sometimes strongly disagree with but which you can clearly see has been reasoned out and is not a spur of the moment thing, also the nature of these reads which partially clear both GM and jmo, clears him as town for me, as a mafia he would almost have to say one of these two is scummy, it's too convinient an opportunity to pass. I already had a town read on DC and AA taking the time to read instead of just going with the flow and voting someone is also nice, albeit much softer evidence, like in RM's case.

So now that I'm pretty confident mafia is in one of these two groups, GM and BR vs jmo and Nacho, the question remains which of these two and who of the pair to start lynching.

The answer is, I'm pretty sure jmo is scum, here are my reasons.

1. He sheeps Nacho in post 31 on the GM vote and never explains why he thinks she is scum or why he decided to sheep. So a clear connection with Nacho is established from the get go, also starting with a RVS is fine and dandy, but neither he nor nacho have changed their stance at all from the start of the game, other than to try and trick more people into voting for GM, this strikes me as peculiar to say the least, for instance I changed my reads at least 3 times thanks to new information being factored in, why are they not doing it? Probably because the lynch on GM was decided, as she herself said in post 164 to try and get rid of a potentially dangerous player and no amount of new information could possibly change that unless some other poor townie slipped up in a drammatic way, see for instance Nacho's post where he says I'm on to something about the IamDr thing, that was convincing enough for him to prepare the ground for a future lynch.

2. He has been trying too hard to be seen as town, see 157 and 176

3. The nail in the coffin for me was his reply, post 182, to my conclusion that it was either him and Nacho or GM and BR, look at GM's reaction to the post, she went and answered giving her POV as a town would, she doesn't know if my post was spot on or a misguided town speaking, jmo instead reacted as mafia, he knows his buddy and that in my post I was pretty correct so his natural reaction was to say: well fuck, this guy got it.

Nacho noticed this and after this post tried to rescue his buddy, see post 185 where he defends him more than once in the same post, not something a clueless town would do without very strong evidence, which he did not provide in the slightest. He also prodded me for my vote cause he knows if they can't convince me they are the two town they are in bad shape and have to resort to some other trick like making me look scummy or finding someone else to focus our attention on or PR claiming. Note also how jmo16mla followed up on Nacho's line to try and pressure me, as only true buddies do

In reply to your post 200 Nacho, once I give my reads, given most people think I'm town, I think there will be an automatic bias on what we will talk about and I wanted to be relatively sure before I "commited" to it. I like the why on earth in your post by the way, makes it look genuine if I were only looking at that post.

VOTE: jmo16mla

Now given this is a game of incomplete information, there is always the possibility of me being wrong, I like my lynch here even if that remote circumstance where to occur because jmo16mla is such a controversial figure at the moment, that knowing his alignment would really help us to figure out who the other scums are, so you might say I also have a contingency plan.

In conclusion, if you believe my reasoning I urge you to vote jmo16mla

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1. Yes I noticed Nacho, that was your "town" post which came out conveniently when suspicion was starting to mount up on you. You're a good enough player you could make that switch and the reasons you give for the RM lynch are again unverifiable, that's also one of the reasons I'm tentatively clearing RM without hearing from her. In general your whole playstyle day one has been trying to give as few information as possible to the rest of us while still telling us what you wanted town to do, there can be different reasons for doing this but mafia is definetely one of them.

2. Because scum have a common interest, whereas townies don't know each other, sheeping at the start of the game might be coincidence or someone playing à là GIF, trying to get reactions, but sticking to that target like jmo did without convicing reasons just doesn't add up, you have also been budding up all game which is very wierd.

3. I have noticed, that's why you are not my number 1 lynch and instead my number 2.

4. This goes above and beyond duty, once again I point out you are defending jmo16mla just based on a feeling. If you really were town wouldn't you want to see what he has to say? Maybe it would help your read or you could point out that this or that part of the defense sounded genuine to you, or you might change your mind and think like I do that jmo is scummy, instead you are just giving him a free pass, in my mind because you already know his alignment, based on two day 1 reads which, at least so far as you have communicated, seem pretty weak and totally don't warrant this kind of defense.

There are also points about why I think jmo is scummy that you don't address, so you are also selectively defending him, another thing I would find strange in a townie.

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@ jmo Lol? Please try to avoid insults or personal comments. If that was the statement you wanted to make then I say I completely disagree with it, using your vote in the best way possible is town, I clearly explained why I did not want to vote at that time, and honestly why should I listen to you on when to vote? I did vote more than once during the game and then unvoted when I thought it was appropriate, or are you stating that if you want to be town you have to vote someone at all times? really?

@Nacho I'll post what you asked for in a while, collecting the info.

[CrisP]

So here it is Nacho:

On the first point:

Post 16: vote for GIF, no reasons given

Post 130: comment on DC, no reasons given

post 161: very synthetic reply to the question

post 185: again very little in the way of reasoning is given

Compare it to my answers and you will see a big difference in how we answer questions, I try to show what I am thinking as much as possible, so it should be easy for you to get a read on me (that's why most guys here have a town read on me), whereas you provide in my opinion very little information, unless someone directly asks you to clarify and even then sometimes you deflect.

on 2.

If you prefer then, you have been budding to a much higher degree than anyone else has with jmo16mla, I don't see the same pattern with other people you read as town.

on 3.

It doesn't to me or to who believes I'm onto something, but it shows it does to you, the normal reaction when you are not sure is to question, not to jump to someone's defence, and again, where does your confidence come from, you haven't shared it with us other than saying he is earnest in the way he talks.

on 4.

- He has been trying too hard to be seen as town, see 157 and 176.

- His reaction to post 182 is abnormal, compare it to GM's reaction.

- After his reaction to post 182 he went into panic mode, see posts 197 and 205

[CrisP]

I'd like to hear from the following people since we are getting close to the end of day 1.

GIF: your V/LA ended yesterday, I'd like your input.

BW: I'd like the rest of your reads and any other comments you have

RM: Please post something, your contribution to this game has been really bad.

Brian: Is it morning where you are at yet?

After giving the guys I think are mafia a day here's what happened:

- jmo16mla's defence is not to defend himself, he was online so he had the time to read the accusations. Probably since he knows it's not a defensible position he is hoping to hide it under the carpet

-Nacho's defence is that the mafia are the two lurker slots, Brian and RM. Now RM if you are mafia and SE in a new game and are using the medical excuse for your lurking, shame on you madam, I don't think so though especially because Brian's post also points to jmo's inconsistencies and Nacho's mafia pair is conveniently a group of people we cannot really analyze, it's a play to remove attention from himself and cast doubt more than an actual read and that's why I find it false.

Also don't let the fact that nobody is hurring to hammer om jmo16mla escape your notice, I think I have built up a compelling case and if I am wrong and say GIF and RM are the mafia they could easily come in and finish him off and blame it on me tomorrow.

[CrisP]

You are being accused of being mafia because:

- You put pressure on GM and tried to lynch her never changing your target or explaining why you were doing so, the accusation is you are mafia and decided together with your buddy to lynch a possibly dangerous player.

Spoiler: Evidence

Confirm.

That was interesting.

VOTE: goodmorning

People, vote goodmorning.

In serious as hell about my vote on GM though.

youre scum.

It served its point.

VOTE: gm

Its got something to do with me continually calling you scum? because that's just about all i can remember doing in this game. Posts 164 and 165 may also be pertinent

The absence of any kind of accusation during the whole day, other than saying GM is scum, should also be considered as evidence

- You tried too hard to appear town or to spoon feed other people in order for them to call you town, the accusation is you are mafia and were trying to buddy up with townies

Spoiler: Evidence

So you think im town?

A LOT of those post show me creating discussion... typically indicative of town players..

- You have been thinking more like a mafia than like town, the accusation is you are mafia hence your reasoning patterns reflect that

Spoiler: Evidence

Newb scum like to unvote quickly when they realize they're wrong. Typically they don't move their vote to someone

shit, i dont think we should even vote. sounds like a good plan?

Why can't I be scum with you, bussing you?

- You reacted very unnaturally after a post where I called you part of a mafia group, the accusation is you are mafia and have more information than the rest of us, so your reaction which appears strange as a townie is instead perfectly natural as a mafia and you slipped up

Spoiler: Evidence

Chrisp must be a damn mastermind.

- You have been defended all game by Nacho, without him giving us any serious reason why he decided to defend you, a very strange behaviour on his part were he town, the accusation is Nacho is your mafia buddy and was trying to clear you before and is trying to rescue you now

Spoiler: Evidence

If you need evidence for this you really need to spend some time reading this thread, the last 20 posts or so have been a buddy fest between Nacho and jmo

- You reacted very poorly after my accusations and tried to pressure me in order for me to disclose whom I was voting for, the accusation is you realized you were in trouble and went into panic mode as mafia, you also needed that information to try and save yourself.

Spoiler: Evidence

It's anti town to not use your vote...

I'm not you god damn two year old. I was making a statement. YOU ARENT VOTING ANYONE. NOT USING YOUR VOTE IS ANTITOWN. WHERE THE HELL DID I MISREP YOU? I'm so fucking tired of people whining about misrepping. Shut up about it.

[CrisP]

Circumstantial evidence that does not depend directly on Jmo16mla

Mafia is not hammering what I consider an easy lynch, so you townies have to assume one of the following if you think jmo16mla is not mafia:

• - Mafia is already voting for jmo16mla
  - This is not an easy lynch / my case against jm016mla is not convicing
  - Mafia is stupid or afk, always a bad assumption to make but never to be discounted

Nacho's reads, which try to absolve jmo16mla, are people which conveniently can't be proven innocent because they have either been lurking or are replacement for lurking slots. if you think jmo16mla is not mafia you have to assume

• - Nacho's reads are geniune but unfortunately they point to lurkeres
  and
  he is also correct that jmo16mla is town

After having investiged her a lot, I think GM is town, so attacking her looks bad to me, you townies have to assume one of the following if you think jmo16mla is not mafia:

• - My read (and some other people's read) on GM is wrong and she is mafia, jmo16mla picked up on this and is part of an unfortunate minority.
  - jmo16mla is wrong about tunnelling on GM but is still town

[CrisP]

You have 3, my vote hasn't been factored in yet.

[CrisP]

I see 3 main scenarios, it's either you and Nacho, GM and Brian, or some of the lurkers either together or maybe in combination with one of the other suspects two suspects (GM and Brian), that's why Nacho's reads were so convenient as mafia, they create doubt while being impossible to dispute. So if I weren't voting you I would have to go for a RL on a lurker or for GM, but at the moment I'm 70% on you 20% on a RL and 10% on GM so if you are town you should convince the rest you are town or if as you say you have no fear of being lynched then you can also do nothing

[CrisP]

Town can defend their townreads. I chainsawed and white-knighted two of my town reads in Rows and Columns before I became the night 1 kill.

It's not so much the defending part which is bothersome, it's the degree to which he goes, the person he chooses to defend and the reasons he gives for defending him which I find questionable. If you are going to white-knight someone day 1 you better have a strong reason for doing so.

I also dispute that Nacho is robotic as mafia, just check out the newbie game 1438 that just ended.

The one thing I am worried about is the many associative tells he's throwing around

As to lining up lynches, I am giving town information on the possible mafia teams, given the connections I saw, on one side Nacho and Jmo budding up, on the other you and GM voting for the same guy, in your case of the bat in your very first meaningful post, and lastly that if you're both townie groups going against each other then mafia must be inside the lurking pool of people. Mafia might also line up people to lynch to push an agenda, but I think the reasons I give justify my behaviour.

On another note I really think RM should be removed from this game, maybe she hasn't technically gone over the time limit but all she has produced were posts full of fluff to avoid the removal right when it was due, not only that but she behaved the same way in the first game we had to lock, so I am really having a bad experience with her as an SE, I'm really sorry on a personal level if this is due to medical conditions, but I want to win...

[CrisP]

It comes from his earnestness and the fact that he's been tunneling on the IC who is not at all an easy target. JMO as scum has motive to get a mislynch without looking too scummy; it doesn't make that much sense for him to expend all of his effort trying to get someone mislynched who will, in all likelihood, not get mislynched. This could mean that he's tunneling GM for the very reason that it's an unlikely scum move, but his earnestness makes me lean against that possibility.

Very well, I like this piece of information you are giving because it is something that might justify your read and you also allueded to it before:

Why do you think he's pushing on you so hard as scum right now?

I'm not sure why I'd choose to buddy with jmo as scum.

you would almost have to, if town lynches a mafia day 1 then you're looking at 6:1 odds.

I don't understand why 157 and 176 are special, though.

Because they look like fishing expeditions to be called town, as opposed to someone trying to show he is.

Why does abnromal mean scum?

It does not, but if you approach it from a mafia POV / mindset, it then makes perfect sense -> occam's razor

site meta has most people voting all the time unless they're lurking like crazy

This thread then is not indicative of site meta, I'm also used to IRL mafia where you do not vote until someone calls a formal so maybe that's a thing, but I still don't like that interaction.

Usually the scumteam doesn't quickhammer townies the moment they reach L-2 because that's sort of obvious.

clearly not, but it's easy to prepare the ground for the lynch if a misguided town already built the case for you, and I see no attempts of doing that.

If jmo is town, that does not mean that my scumreads are right. In fact, with Brian's latest post, I'm starting to think that Diamond and Rach make up the scumteam.

This is true.

I'm feeling a bit better about Nacho, but I'm still on JM's case.

I also really don't like JM's defense, basically what his defence comes down to is that his sarcasm, which he is really good at he might add, has been misinterpreted, all in the same sentence where he just stated that he can easily manipulate how people feel from reading his posts by the way he types. Inconsistent some?

Nacho, if you think I'm town, you are changing your mind on Brian and you also said at a certain point that GM looks town, why are we all voting JM an why isn't mafia helping us along?

[CrisP]

Sure, I'm checking you out, no worries, I am looking at your ongoing Mr Flay game.

It definetely is your fault I think you are scummy if you are town, your number one job if you are town is to show it to the rest of us, if everyone does then the scum are automatically revealed. Please note that I'm also not the only one that finds your play questionable, considering you have three votes on you.

I follow your reasoning but I can't really see you writing 205 in cold blood, and if you are a hot head who knows what kind of slips you might make.

[CrisP]

Plus if you are town be proactive instead of telling me what to do, what are your reads, why are we voting you, what else did you notice, give us something to work with and help town along.

[CrisP]

UNVOTE: jmo16mla

That was so scummy from RM, I have to think about it.

[CrisP]

I'm ok with both JM and RM being lynched now, I think JM is really scummy, he tells people to unvote, he auto votes the only other possible lynch without even giving a reason, he doesn't give his reads to help town, everything he is doing just rubs me the wrong way, maybe I'm too invested in him but if so then hey, someone else still has to agree and I think he would play a shitty town later along the line anyway, I don't want to worry about him anymore.

I also think if I'm wrong and jmo16mla is town it's not going to be a problem tomorrow to agree on a lynch on RM, whereas if jmo16mla slips under the radar now I don't think I can get him lynched tomorrow, he is a more costly mistake to make so I'm going to hedge my bets in the right direction.

Lynching JM also has the added benefit for me of finding out Nacho's alignment, there is always the chance he is mafia and is defending a townie but I'd give that play a 10% at most, JM would be dead now if Nacho was mafia and he is town, only the scenario where Nacho has already invested so much in defending JM and can't backtrack anymore and keep his credibility exists, and that's my 10%.

I'm not even close to 90% on anyone else so if JM is town Nacho would be my biggest town read at that point and since he has reads on RM and BR anyway I'd be happy to go along with them.

VOTE: jmo16mla

This is L-1, hammer only with intent to lynch

[CrisP]

Even last game, upon replacing in I was pushing a project fat lynch. Where's that agressiveness? Like damn. No one looks at that.

what are you talking about, you have been trying to get GM lynched from the first post your wrote this game, if anything you are more aggressive than last time.

1. jmo wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad.
2. BS's intro at #175 looked forced.
3. Less than a two days left? Oh lordy.
4. Last few BW's posts actually felt town. Damn you nacho
5. VOTE: Rach
6. This is L-1.

I'm waiting for the follow up before commenting on this.

meh guys n gals I am VT so its not a real big loss.

This is not what I would write as mafia if I was about to be lynched day 1, it's also in line with her general playstyle thus far, what do the guys that have played with her have to say about this?

As it is RM's play fully justifies a lynch, but I can't get past the fact she is the (very) low hanging fruit, I also don't like how quickly the focus was moved to RM from JM.

[CrisP]

Also after being asked for his reads, for the n-th time I might add, all JM can produce is a town read on me and a sheep on Nacho's read on BR? Wow that's so much original and useful content, it really feels like he is doing his best to puzzle out this game as a good townie would.

[CrisP]

What about it is so scummy?

The motivation that is given for voting.

[CrisP]

Crisp, it's bad that you're judging rach's claim like that. That's the quickest way to get screwed over.

How am I judging RM's claim in your opinion? I'm curious because my judgment on it is that I find it bad, I am not sure if it is bad because RM is playing bad town or because it's scummy, that's why I asked everyone else how they felt about it, i.e. is RM capable of playing town so badly.

Again, Chrisp, stop drawing ties between player without a flip. That will also get you in trouble.

I find it funny you are repeatedly trying to tell me how to play when you are considered one of the scummiest players so far, so you are failing as either mafia or town, whereas I am seen as town by most people here including you. Trying to make connections between players is just a natural way to scumhunt, whether they flipped or not is irrelevant, that's why you can build scenarios, like: if x is mafia then y may be as well, or I don't think it makes sense for x to be mafia if y is.

I do want to know why you unvoted me, only to revote me quickly after?

I said everything in my posts at the time, I unvoted because I found RM's L-1 very scummy and I was afraid it might be hammered before I had time to consider, I clearly was not the only since that started a bandwagon on her, I voted you again because I find you scummy, I don't like how you are playing, I think I would gain a lot of information from knowing your alignment and I like the idea of getting rid of you now before it comes back to hunt town at a later date.

Again, why is rach the only viable wagon when buck had two votes on him and rach only had one?

I already said BW is one of my strongest town reads so I did not give any weight to the 2 votes he had, they were old votes from people who had either been replaced or had gone on extended V/LA's, the fact you are bringing it up shows you are either grasping at straws or not really into this game. Furthermore the general reads from town tended to put BW as a null or as slightly town whereas most people had RM as slightly scummy, that's why I thought and think that RM was the only other viable alternative.

One interesting recent development is that the wind on BW is changing slightly now, and some people have started to throw down feelers on him being scummy.

Now, once again in going to ask you this, who were you also looking when you were deciding who to vote?

I already told you, I was looking at you, RM, BR, Nacho and GM, GM I feel better about and Nacho I feel slightly better about, if you are cleared or die as town then Nacho is town for me unless proven otherwise.

[CrisP]

Okay, you keep your play style and don't take any tips to make yourself better. You've obviously mastered the game already.

you are misrepping me again! I never said I mastered this game or that I don't need tips, I said I find it curious, and a sign of your arrogance instead of mine, that you keep on tipping me on how to play when you are the one in a worse position.

Rach can claim the way she did as town, or scum. Your argument isn't strong.

I am not making an argument, I am asking if this is the kind of thing she would do as town; unless you mean that my argument is that if you are town you should not claim VT, in that case I do make that argument, if you think that's a bad argument you don't know the theory of this game.

You shouldn't be afraid that I would be hammered. I'm the scummiest player in the game... remember?

already explained this, not sure why you would make this comment other than to appear snarky as RM called you or just to confuse the issue.

She even left a note saying for people to claim intent to hammer before they did.

Mafia wouldn't care about this

Focus elsewhere.

again, be pro town instead of telling me what to do

do you have any previous games from a different site that I can look at?

I think I already said this is my first forum mafia game, but in case I didn't and your question was serious I will reiterate it, I doubt there is much to read about me though, my alignment should be clear, of course there is a reasonable chance, especially early on in the game, that I might just be plain wrong.

[CrisP]

I hear you BW, please wait for GIF's post, I'd like to hear what he has to say.

[CrisP]

folks
i ll be able to post from monday...let me catch up!!!

You not posting anything looks pretty bad.

1. jmo wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad.
2. BS's intro at #175 looked forced.
3. Less than a two days left? Oh lordy.
4. Last few BW's posts actually felt town. Damn you nacho
5. VOTE: Rach
6. This is L-1.

Still waiting for that more in-depth post you said you were going to write. I'll wait for the 10 hour mark and post again then.

[CrisP]

ArcAngel9 you have been active and you still are not posting here, what you are doing is completely anti-town, so I can only deduce you are mafia.

UNVOTE: jmo16mla

VOTE: ArcAngel9

[CrisP]

meaning?

[CrisP]

Yes because she has every reason to talk now as town and none as mafia, so I want her to talk. You just lost to lurkers, while being a PR and not voting, I would expect you to help me pressure her.

Don't worry about the rest and re read my post to BW.

In general I have been checking the winning town stats on the wiki and they are abysmal, my conclusion, similar to the feeling I'm having in this game, is that lurkers are screwing town over, so the best way to normalize the stats and in general to win games here is to pressure lurkers.

[CrisP]

My last post for today will be at the 3 hour mark.

[CrisP]

How can someone be so dense, I don't know. At least the fact you care makes me feel a bit better about trusting other people's reads on you. I'll post at the 3h mark cause that's what I promised.

[CrisP]

Very well, I think everyone that wanted to talk had the chance to; the rest of the discussion is for tomorrow.

RachMarie, I

hammer

you because:

- You have been lurking for the entirety, and have produced little to no content, day 1.

- You claimed vanilla town at L-1, a move that can only help mafia, and your general defence was weak: no reads other than on the one person who might be lynched in your place and saying you do not really mind being lynched.

- You are the only one that has played with JM and still maintains after my accusations and his defences that he is the scummiest. Nacho, GIF, BW and to a much lesser degree GM all think that he is town or at least less scummy than you, since they can't all be mafia I have to believe their read is not an attempt to misguide me and thus as accurate as they can make it.

- You would have been killed by BW if I had not asked him to wait for the lurkers, nominally AA and GIF, to post (which they have not but this is a discussion for tomorrow) so I also owe BW this vote.

If you were town, I hope I will not have to play with you again.

VOTE: RachMarie

[CrisP]

So here are my thoughts based on what happened:

- It's almost impossible for only town to have voted on RM, of course she fucked up so bad you never know, but I have to assume at least one and possibly two mafia are in the group of people that voted her: Jmo16mla, Goodmorning, Yui113. I also include Buckwild because he would have voted if I hadn't asked him to wait.

- Nacho died and he was town, the main things he did this game were defending jmo16mla and accusing first GM and BR then RM and BR and finally RM and AA's slot. So AA, BR and GM would have a reason to kill him, GM actually stated Nacho was a good kill, jmo16mla also benefitted from this because now he seems more town.

- I'm alive and I thought I would be dead for sure considering how much I had to expose myself to get this game going, it's too bad I'm not mafia cause I could just go afk and wait for the RM's of this game to hand me the victory, this however means, in my mind because you should always question everyone's alignment, that mafia valued killing nacho over killing an almost confirmed town. So why's that? I have to assume I probably have the wrong the reads on someone that is in the mafia group and that points to BW, Yui113, AA because I read them as town, and GM for the same reasons. This also makes jmo16mla look more town because as mafia he would have to assume I would come out of the gate trying to get him killed.

Now back to what you guys posted:

ArcAngel9 - All lurking from what I can see. Most scummy player I see.

I like that you gave you reads, I especially liked that you went against what I said about jmo16mla, because my idea is mafia is going to try a bandwagon on him again, if he is not mafia, and that's why I'm alive, but I don't like that your only scum was the low hanging fruit lurker. On the other hand I see how this might happen, please be active.

While I believe that slot needs to post, I don't have a scum read on that slot.

I agree with this, now that I know RM was not mafia her not voting is actually good for her, still this looks like another RM in the making.

might be looking at nacho real hard tomorrow

actually pretty likely

might have the flu

will be v/la thurs, fri, maybe sat

This post gives me the creeps, why would you even think of putting yourself V/LA during night time? This looks highly artificial. Why would you post you will be looking at Nacho before you know if RM is town or mafia? Other than a lurking suspicion, which I believe you guys can read in my hammer post, I also had to admit RM was looking really scummy, and if she was mafia then Nacho would have been one of the most town in the game, considering he started the whole vote on her and redirected the attention on her from JM. You posting this makes me think you were already planning what to do next because you already knew RM's alignment.

Well, now that Nacho's confirmed Town I literally only have two suspects.

Vote: jmo

I don't like this because that's what I thought mafia would do today if I were alive. Who's your other suspect?

Considerations on who did not vote for RM

It's possible that there is a scum between BR and AA, I don't think it's both of them. I'd like to hear the reason why BR decided not to vote for RM, or why you thought JM was the scummier of the two and I'd like to hear something from AA or have her replaced by someone more active.

And finally my analysis of the situation:

- BW remains town for me, he has had original comments throughout the game which shows he is actively trying to puzzle the game out and not interested in bandwagoning on people. He took his time to decide on who to vote between JM and RM, instead of joining in, he town-read Nacho at a crucial time where the question of: is Nacho defending jmo16mla because he is honest town or because he is mafia protecting his buddy was really important to answer, and mafia had very little reason to give Nacho's alignment to town.

- Jmo16mla, I went hard on him all day yesterday, and thank god for that because it's the thing that gives us the most information in this game, considering we lynched someone who had almost 0 interactions with the rest of us, that's why I did not like the RM lynch from a strategic point of view. Nacho read him as town and then he died, I see the play of jmo16mla killing him off and claiming town points for it, but I think it's unlikely. So at this point he is my second town read, it also helps that most people who are town or of whom I have town reads also town read him. I do hope my low opinion of his game play is not making me give a too low probability to the above mentioned play (killing nacho off), so you should be careful about a possible bias there.

This leaves, with a pretty high probability,

at least 1

mafia between Yui113 and Goodmorning.

- Yui113, I place you in this group because you are lower in the town hierarchy for me, but GIF was sheeping Nacho and probably had a town read on him, you posted what I wanted to hear about jmo16mla, for the moment I think you are leaning town, but the way the votes went down puts you in the spotlight for me.

GM I think you are the logical person to start pressuring, give me something good because at the moment I really think you are scummy. My read on why she was leaning town by the way, was that she normally doesn't interact with her scum partner other than hiding him in her weak town reads if necessary, but she did interact a lot with BR, now that the scum pairs are changing this no longer applies as much, plus there are a multitude of other considerations that overwrite that ISO of her.

VOTE: Goodmorning

[CrisP]

This is WIFOM, WIFOM is bad and the first part looks extra specially bad.

Nacho was probably the strongest player in this game.

This is as much wine in front of me as the reasons I give, any discussion about night kills can be WIFOM, that does not mean you can't consider them. What especially didnt't you like about the first part?

Also the best player in the game, according to you, was dead wrong day 1 and did his best to save a mafia?

Because the mod could need to reach me overnight for any number of reasons and I like to let folks know when I'll be unavailable?

Sure and you did not consider how people would react upon reading you were V/LA during the night time.

Are you saying bussing is impossible?

Yes, day 1, 2 v 7 with 2 town power roles you don't know about, getting your buddy killed for no reason is just not a good option, unless now you think Nacho is a bad player? If RM was under heavy scrutiny before Nacho started accusing her and he threw in his vote, that was one thing, but to start the whole suspicion on her, vote her, and let her die is just very unlikely. You apparently agree:

I hadn't thought of that. I suppose you could be, although this early in the game?
Do you have a history of bussing/bussing early in your scumgames

So what you are saying is: you are about to discover if RM is town or mafia, and your first thought is, let's check Nacho because he might have bussed her?

The same one I've had the entire time. If you haven't been reading my posts that's a crying shame. It's Buck.

So you RSV'ed Buck and since then you are convinced he is mafia, I hope you have more to say about this accusation because up to now you certainly haven't made it clear, and yes, I have read your posts.

[CrisP]

Except that I was specifically asked, and as it's in part a theory question, answered.

So what you are saying is we should just ignore NK's?

I especially didn't like the first part because 1. arrogance and 2. waving your not being killed in everyone's faces

1. There is no arrogance in stating facts, it's a fact I was town read by most people in the game day 1. It is also a fact that mafia has every interest in killing slots that are thought of by most as town because that increases their chances of hiding among suspicious people.

2. If you read the follow up you will see why I wrote it, it was not done in order to "wave it in your face" but using it as a premise for the reasoning that comes after it. The fact you are debating the premise and ignoring the reasoning by screaming WIFOM, instead of pointing out what is wrong and what might be right from your POV looks scummy.

Anybody who's come across my V/LAs knows that I'm pretty active during them anyway, besides which only one of my V/LA days was even overnight to begin with. Or is today not Friday?

Here you are answering a question you were not asked, clearly worried that someone might check if you were active during your supposed V/LA (which makes it even more artificial), instead of the reply I was expecting, which would have gone along the lines of: no I did not think about what others would think about my post because I was just telling something to the mod. Guilty conscience someone?

voting early =/= RVS

Are you trying to argue that your vote on Buck, after he voted and unvoted Immuno, was not an RVS but an early scum tell? Here again I see you debating semantics, instead of giving valid content so that we may judge for ourselves if what you are saying has merit or if you are just bullshitting.

[CrisP]

Not always, but it definitely shouldn't be at the forefront of anyone's reasoning.

The forefront of my reasoning is that there is a very high chance that inside the 4, or 5 if you extend it to BW, of you that voted for RM there is at least 1 mafia.

The rest is speculation so that: I can narrow it down, am able to get people's reactions and see what happens once I start applying pressure, à la bull in the china shop.

It does in some fashion point to at least one of the Scum having played Nacho before because this game has been not his best, but on the other hand it could just be that someone thought they saw him drop a PR tell or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to frame someone or that someone thought he'd be a good kill choice to confuse people or on and on and on.

This is why it is WIFOM. This is why it is dismissable.

At least you are making your point here, but I still disagree, if you are mafia and you know someone is going to go after you, you have a strong motivation to get rid of him/her. How do you rate jmo16mla as a mafia player?

Here I am answering the question you were likely to ask next. Or was that not what you were getting at? I certainly wasn't thinking about it at the time. It was a blanket V/LA that I stated everywhere.

This is true.

If you think it's too early I challenge you to read Shadows and Lights, my (Sensual Koala) uptake on the BnB hydra's scumminess with their very first post.

If you often give early scumreads, sometimes you will get it right, maybe it makes sense for you but I can't really see someone picking up something by reading their first post.

I absolutely voted Buck for a reason.

What is this reason? Why did you never mention him during the day after switching your vote to me, then to JM and finally to RM? Why did you interact with him so little if you thought he was scum? You never asked him a question day 1, just answered when he prodded you.

Here I see you trying to play around with my words. Why?

Asking the same question in different ways is a consistency test, it also gives more information since you tend to answer in different ways.

Lurking is not a scumtell.

It should be, also you voted RM mainly for that over JM, which now apparently is a confirmed mafia to you.

[CrisP]

And I find VCA to be problematic for a whole mess of other reasons, but that's more a discussion for postgame.

, do you also find power roles problematic? Because in that case we can just just use a random generator for lynches and see if we win the game. Jokes aside, every strategy in mafia uses incomplete information, so it's always going to be fallible, this does not mean you can't use it and most of the time if it's a reasonable strategy it will help you.

And how is that working out for you so far?

It's too early to say, at the very least it provides a lot of information. For instance, after having read your answers and some of your mafia defences I can say you are either upping your game here and fooling me our my accusations are wrong, still thinking about it. Look at it from my POV:

- Day 1 you only gave away reads when prodded, in answer to someone prodding you, or discussed theory points with us, which I guess is your way of being a dutiful IC so a nul.
- You have also been very wishy washy in your posts, you keep on saying stuff like, on the one hand x, but on the other hand y, which is very annyoing for townies because we don't know what you mean so you create confusion and very handy as a mafia player cause you can always reference one of the parts if you get under some heat.
- You said you weren't playing your best game, something often done to cover slip ups.
- You joined both bandwagons
- The only votes you started where on things other people thought poor, BW's immuno joke and my mistake about DC's role in the first setup.

Doesn't this look scummy to you?

I was watching. Some people are the type who crack under pressure, but others are the type who relax too far when there's no pressure at all.

It's a possible strategy, so did you get something from his day 1 after letting him relax? If the only thing you are going with is the immuno vote you'll have to agree it's a pretty weak read, at least from a logical point of view.

But she flipped green, so I'm looking again at the reasons the jmo wagon failed.

See that's in part my problem. You were the one who stopped it dead in it's tracks, if you had kept your vote on him then I would have argued with BW that even if he liked JM's defence JM made much more sense from a strategic point of view, his reaction then would have been telling. Let's also not forget we could all be townies going at each other, a possibility which you seem to be ignoring.

You make some good points though, the play I mentioned and that you think is arrogance on my part, of leaving me alive because I had the wrong reads, also works with BW because if he is mafia he managed to partially pocket me day 1.

For the rest of town, what do you think about a possible JM BW pair, what about a GM BR one?

[CrisP]

GM: I want to hear more from GM on why he has such high suspicions of me. Either way, he feels even more town than ever since his last few posts. Crisp, I think you are wasting your time on GM.

If it helps to clear her it's not time wasted, especially since her play day 1 doesn't seem very town at all to me, but I agree, the more I look at her defence day 2 the more it looks like she is town.

UNVOTE:

JM has been very cryptic today, I'm waiting for his post to see what he is hinting at before thinking about the situation again.

Yui how often have you played mafia? I liked your post and your answer but it feels a bit like your are playing the newbie card.

[CrisP]

Why aren't you voting someone then?

Why are you more interested in his vote than about his reads?

[CrisP]

Guys, as much as I'm having fun seeing your bussing techniques at work I don't want to give free reign to my sadistic nature, you are both making a key assumption that only mafia would make, I'm sure the rest of town can figure it out.

jmo16mla: sorry if I was a bit of an ass with you, but I needed you to believe I did not think you would kill nacho off. Unfortunately you made a few slip ups this game, so there was no way I was clearing you. You overdid it a bit coming out of the gate and trying to spoon feed GM into giving the reason you wanted us to hear of why Nacho was killed, also waiting for me to go on you so you could post we were the scum pair was not the best plan.

Buck: you played a good game, god knows what GM picked up on you in your first post, woman's intuition I guess, the problem is your reads are too good, look at how you cleared Nacho when he was protecting JM

he is definitely town

or how you told me GM was town and that I was

wasting time

, wasting time for you because you already know her alignment, or how you have no doubt whatsoever about my alignment

given that he is town

, trying to buss JM once you knew he was a goner was a good idea, but I'd advise against hiding your mafia in the middle of your scum reads, that has become a classic tell... maybe going against Brian when he pointed you out as a pair was a bit too much but in and by itself it was not such a huge thing.

VOTE: jmo16mla

[CrisP]

JM you keep missing the point, why aren't you worried mafia is going to hammer you?

You are at L-1.

The answer is you know mafia is not going to hammer you because you are the mafia, so no worries there, the important thing for you is to convince the rest of town not to vote.

Now if you were town you would be screaming about being first at L-2 and now at L-1, I did not even write it to make a point about how much you are not thinking of it.

So now:

JM is at L-1, hammer only with intent.

I made a case against both of you, Buck voted your l-2 without a care in the world because he also has no worries about mafia hammering.

[CrisP]

How rude.

I didn't realize i was L-2. I didnt know i was L-1 until you said it.

That's the point, compare your reaction to what Yui113 thought about when the GM interrogation was going on, and see how a town thinks and how a mafia thinks.

Why the fuck would scum just auto hammer me?

auto hammer? Who said anything about auto hammering, Brian for instance stated he was suspicious about you the whole time, he would have a perfectly valid excuse to come here, write an accusation and kill you off if he were mafia.

To hammer, scum would have to ask me to claim. so, they wouldn't be able to auto hammer anyways.

what is this? Are you trying to fake claim something?

Also the whole case? Not at all:

- The case about you starts by your early and unexplained pressure on GM, the only valid reason I have heard for this behaviour is GM's, you were doing it to get her killed because she is an experienced player.

- It continues with the terrible defence you gave when put on the spot, first you decline to answer, second you answer with very flimsy justifications and then you just plain tell people what to do or resort to insults. Just compare your defence with GM's, I mean there is no comparison...

- It is reinforced by the NK which in your mind is the big play that is going to save you next day, what you are thinking is: I'm going to kill off nacho and claim tomorrow that any lynch on me is an easy mafia push because my only defender has been removed. Any other mafia player would have been better off by killing me, 80% of the activity on this thread would die down and easy lynches on low hanging fruits would ensue.

- You start the day with precisely that in mind, first you try and spoon feed GM into saying what you want, then you continue preparing the ground for your inevitable defence, you also contradict yourself: first you state that you are waiting for GM's partner to post (and at that time you had me in mind), then after I come out and accuse GM you say you are waiting on Arc and Buck's posts, so presumably either Buck or Arc are GM's buddies, but now your scum is Brian which you apparently were not waiting on to post before.

- And finally the whole bussing fiasco and forgetting town would be worried about mafia hammering them.

here you are, now manners please, can I ask the mod to keep it civil or is this behavior is allowed?

[CrisP]

ARC STILL HASNT EVEN POSTED YOU IDIOT. YOU COMPLAINED THAT ARC DIDN'T EVEN POST AND TRIED TO PRESSURE HER YESTERDAY TO GET TO TALK. SHE DIDNT TALK AND NOW YOU WANT TO LYNCH ME WITHOUT HER SAYING ANYTHING AGAIN?

That was before RM flipped town, now Arc not voting makes her a lot less suspicious without the need to talk.

SO, YOURE POSSIBLY GOING INTO LYLO TOMORROW WITH LESS THAN 10 POST FROM ONE SLOT? THAT'S HOW YOU WIN GAMES. YOU'RE A PRO KID.

Not at all, let's say you are town, then it's very likely for GM to be mafia, I'm very happy about trading you as town for GM as mafia, clearly we are getting rid of a liability on one side and a strong player on the other, that was a pretty good defence she gave regardless of whether she is town, as I think, or mafia.

By the way, if someone does auto hammer me, they are auto lynched tomorrow, and I'm blacklisting you from any future game with you. JUST SO YOU KNOW.

Are you the mod now? If you die and your alignment is determined the remaining players will decide what to do. Well considering your behaviour you not wanting to play with me is quite a relief, also I strongly advise the moderators not to let you join newbie games, you are clearly not suited for them.

[CrisP]

I didn't vote GM. What made you suspect that I was basing so much of my case on the NK? Where do you get that from? I was simply pressuring her.

You again choose to selectively defend yourself on one specific point and forget all the plethora of reasons given for your vote, to which I might add, you just tried to fake claim something without telling what, that's like the biggest tell ever that you are scummy.

Of course the part about the NK is speculation, it might be right, it might be wrong, it's just a possibility that fits into what you might think if you are mafia, it explains what happened and is consistent with the rest of my case against you.

As I already told you once before, if you get lynched as town, it is your own fault for playing a horrible game. Let's assume that as you keep on stating I'm a newbie, or an idiot, or someone that needs help (lel look who's talking, you're practically a basket case), then the other townies will realize my accusations are baseless and your lynch won't get through.

[CrisP]

To hammer, scum would have to ask me to claim. so, they wouldn't be able to auto hammer anyways.

What is this? First it's not proper english, second it's false cause anyone can just hammer (very scummy I agree) and third what are you supposed to claim?

Some people have a different way of coming off to people than others.

You're just rude.

But when more experienced people try to tell you something ABOUT YOUR PLAY, then you should probably take note.

The best way to learn is to make mistakes. You would probably improve more if you looked at your own play instead of trying to teach others. I try to factor in what everyone else says, sometimes I manage sometiems I don't, in your case just the way you phrase it makes it almost impossible as far as I am concerned.

I'm not the mod, I'm telling you, and anyone else in this game that if I'm lynched without declaring intent hammer, and giving me a chance, then they need to be auto lynched tomorrow.

This looks like psychological intimidation, something a townie wouldn't really need.

From what I've got, your case on me was because nacho was defending me so much.(he's dead and town) I tried to force feed nacho'a death to goodmorning. (I didn't, I asked her why she thought he was dead. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with pressuring a player???) then, I don't even know. You really need to work on your game, as I've already stated.

This is nonsence, I don't think it's worth it to continue stating my points, a valid strategy on your side could be try to make this a giant wall of text so the real points get lost amidst it. If the rest of town is confused about why I'm voting you they can ask me and I'll make a summary

[CrisP]

Crisp you are o so wrong.

This is entirely possible, show me you are town and I'll try to correct my mistake.

You think I'm scum cause I can read people?

I think if you read people well and state it with certainty there is a chance you already know their alignment. Of course you might just have a lot of good reads as well, that's not the only thing I said about why I think you are mafia.

[CrisP]

Now, we have two slots in which we know nothing about and I would surely like to get some information from them.

This is the only valid point I see coming from JM, I agree that the more information we get the better, so for now:

UNVOTE:

[CrisP]

Because lynching you later along the day vs lynching you now is strictly better, regardless of your alignment.

[CrisP]

Let's leave the troll / mafia alone for a moment.

The fact that BW didn't change his vote on JM is either honest town or good mafia play, you have to be pretty cold blooded to stay put with a vote on your partner when just a random vote from an Arc or a Yui, which you know nothing about, could practically end the game for you, and ISOing Buck shows me he is more of an emotional than a logical player, I have seen plenty of times where he came up with reads out of the blue and he was correct but I also saw him making logical mistakes when fossing people, I don't think that's how he would act.

That's one of the reasons I told them I had "figured it out" as JM puts it. BW also had pretty good reads last game so even the fact that his reads have been good or appear good to me this game as well is not such a strong tell, my post 323 was designed to pu them under enormous pressure if they were mafia in the hope they would crack.

It does not look like they did, JM did his usual crap about insulting the accuser like RM said he does when he is town and as you can see if you ISO him, and BW also responded like I would expect him to if he were town.

I think there is a good chance

they are both town

, I still wouldn't mind killing JM off because he is a liability

Now that both GM and JM have been pressured, I think it's important to check the lurker slots because I don't want us to get boxed into thinking it's either JM and BW or GM and BR.

Yui you stated:

I did not want the mafia to be able to hammer him quickly, I held off on my vote.

While it's a reasonable worry that if you put someone at L-2 mafia can kill him off, why would they do so quickly? If they quick hammer and he flips town, then isn't the game over for them? I could understand your point if we were at mylo or lylo but not here, that's why I asked you if you played mafia often, or do you think after the quick hammer they would manage to talk themselves out of getting lynched?

[CrisP]

Also

VOTE: ArcAngel9

for being active, while on V/LA in this game, not having posted here other than to prod/dodge since she replaced DC.

[CrisP]

Sounds reasonable, BW what do you get from the way he answered?

Yui to get you to talk a bit I'd like to ask you some questions, if you don't mind.

- Why do you think your slot cleared JMO day 1?

- What do you think about JM's, BW's and my recent interaction and the conclusions I draw from it?

- Why do you think mafia isn't (quick) hammering JM?

- Did you like GM's arguments when I FOS'ed her? Why did you or didn't you?

- What's your stance on VCA (vote count analysis) and talking about NK's?

Thanks for the reply!

[CrisP]

Again. Why do you think mafia would quikhammer? They would only bring attention to themselves. You don't listen.

I agree but that does not mean we are right, it's you who is not listening: my point was that both of you (JM and BW) did not even think about it which was a possible mafia slip, because mafia would not even consider it, at least it looked convincing enough for me to try and claim you were screwed, post the mistakes you would have made as mafia and see how you reacted.

I'm more interested in hearing Yui113's thoughts at the moment, for instance the fact he thinks you can get away with it, if it is his genuine opinion, makes it less likely he is mafia, otherwise you would have been lynched.

[CrisP]

Anybody see a problem with these two posts?

Yes, he should have voted you and not Brian.

But I've had more posts to judge him compared to RM so stuff that I would normally cringe and point at is not important anymore.

That said, it's definitely a bad idea to lynch anyone til AA9 posts stuff.

Well definitely is putting it a bit strongly, but I agree in principle, let's not forget Brian also hasn't talked today.

[CrisP]

You said something about mafia having to ask you to claim before they lynched you:

To hammer, scum would have to ask me to claim

So I took it you were hinting at a PR role, but you prabably were just typing from your phone again.

[CrisP]

I mean, yes you are, but there is no need to admit it, I'm an understanding person. I'm pretty sure you are town now, try not to get yourself mod killed.

[CrisP]

-It didn't really look like GiF had cleared JMO day one. In fact, to me it looked like he didn't like him, to quote,

1. jmo wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad.

Maybe the lingo he is using is unclear, GIF is saying he thinks the bandwagon on JMO is bad, in other words he thinks JMO is town.

I'm not certain how they react under pressure and if that's normal or anything, but due to you saying that it's something they often act like when they are town, I'll go with that. Nothing else to base what I know of them off of.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the best thing to do is to check them out for yourself and compare the reactions you see in this game with how they behaved in previous games where you know their alignment. RachMarie, the first day town lynch, also stated that this is often JMO's normal response, so the JMO part is not based only on my opinion.

It's hard to judge with so little content, but what I will say is that I am leaning town towards you, mainly based on the hammer behavior I discussed with JMO, and if you are mafia you are definetly not the person calling the shots. I'd love to hear from people who are good at language analysis like BW what they think about your posts, to me they look like a genuine new player coming into the game and being cautios.

Hiding your experience and making one or two obvious blunders can be a good strategy to fly under the radar though, but if that's the case you will have to make a move sooner or later and I'll come back to it if I think it's necessary.

[CrisP]

You have a point there, still it hints to the fact that GIF thought or wanted us to think JMO is town.

@mod: am I allowed to ask where he usually plays?

As for people getting away with hammers, it is unlikely but it makes sense for him to say so given the stance he is taking.

[CrisP]

By the way it's not strange at all that I was town-read by everyone day1 JMO, as long as I was pushing on you mafia had no interest in disputing it, it was actually better for them because it gave more weight to my accusations.

I'm disappointed Brian, where's the kitten?

[CrisP]

what is this GM?

Are you warning Brian that you are about to buss him?

See the beauty of playing the bull in the china shop is that even if you completely screw up on your accusations like I did it still gives you a lot of information. I'm ashamed to say I actually misinterpreted your early BW read but once you made the connection for me I got what Brian.

Of course it only works if the rest of town believes you are town, otherwise you might look scummy, but you did that for me

Nacho was indeed killed cause he is Nacho.

[CrisP]

Also congrats JM for picking up on her from the start, the problem is you do not verbalise your reads, so for a Nacho, GIF or indeed GM it's obvious what you are going on about, but for someone like me who doesn't have the skillset you acquired by playing a lot of forum mafia it just looks wierd and hence possibly scummy. You'll notice I did the same thing with Nacho, until he explained the reasoning he was implying by his read, if you do the same in the future you will have far less problems with new players.

[CrisP]

For the rest of town, this is not a play to scumhunt, this is me with a pretty definite read on the mafia this game.

I'll write a proper accusation at home, currently on a train.

For now I think the last post alone from GM should be enough for you to put her on your scum list.

She doesn't

plan

to vote Brian, who plans votes? Certainly not town, and why this blanket statement on Brian, I'd have trouble saying that of an uncced PR, let alone a guy who's barely posted, of course now that I called her out on it, it's the only thing she can say.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know Mafia isn't allowed to talk separately during the day in newbie games, at least that's what I read in one of JMO's recent games, in this case you have every reason to try and communicate with your partner if the strategy you planned fell apart, if by any chanche I'm wrong then it was simply a slip.

Buck you thought Brian was scummy for bringing out your name in connection with JM for no apparent reason, but he was not the first to do so, with actions instead of words, who does GM says are her two suspects? You and JM, and looked at how she answered to you asking her why she thought you were scummy, very fishy.

While you are at it compare her first defence today, where she looked very town because the accusations I made were wrong so she just needed to say the truth, although she still dropped some tells, to the second one she gave, she again tries not to lie but does that look town to you? Consider also the timing of that second defence post, right after I said you and JM were probably town, while I was fossing you two she carefully avoided posting anything.

There's even more evidence, I'll post it with proper quotes later, but as you can see it's pretty ironclad.

[CrisP]

Sure GM, let's go at it, finally some fun in this game.

Other evidence of why she is scum, the Nacho kill:

- My reaction, why didn't they kill me, I've done and said the most this game

- JMO, Honestly I have no idea why they killed you but I'm sure Nacho was killed for them to lynch me.

In fact we were both wrong.

The truth (GM), crisP don't be an arrogant prick. Nacho was killed because he was the most dangerous player for mafia (the best is what she said), infact his first pair was the actual mafia!

- The truth (GM), crisP your reasoning about JMO is WIFOM and bad,

we will discuss it post game

, the Nacho kill had little to do with JM, the fact JM was then easier to lynch is just an added bonus!

Go for it GM, I still have stuff

[CrisP]

Because you were truly annoyed at how I dismissed the Nacho kill, hey I'm sorry I know he's a bit of a hero to you, so you could not act in the calculated and robotic way you describe, you are human, not an agorithm that wants to win a mafia game. The actual fact you were annoyed is another tell by the way, JM was perplexed when asked, because ad far as he was concerned I had produced the most content, but you

knew

Nacho's content was qualitatively superior

[CrisP]

So here I am finally back at my pc, first of all I'd like you all to notice how she is concentrating on some points of my accusation while completely ignoring others wheh she can't explain them away, like:

Besides which, what need would I have to warn anyone I was going to bus them? When I'm Scum it's the first thing I post in the QT.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know Mafia isn't allowed to talk separately during the day in newbie games, at least that's what I read in one of JMO's recent games, in this case you have every reason to try and communicate with your partner if the strategy you planned fell apart, if by any chanche I'm wrong then it was simply a slip.

No, Mafia in Newbie games absolutely does not have daytalk.

so the first post was a lie, as mafia she had a perfectly valid reason to do it, but let's not talk about it she says, and goes for:

And I said we would discuss why WIFOM is eminently dismissable postgame, unless you want to distract from actual gameplay to hold a theory discussion right now.
I did not say that we would not discuss your actual jmo reasoning.

Implying that I said somewhere that GM would not discuss my JMO reasoning post game, which of course I never stated (lie number 2), what I did say instead is that GM knew my reasoning was bad because she already knew why Nacho was killed, she also told me she knew by stating we would discuss it post game (bad slip there).

Nacho is a better player than any of us in this game. If you don't believe me you're welcome to go meta him.

Truth as she believes it, but completely unrelated to my line of questioning, part of GM's general MO of trying to mix as much truth as possible in her lies to appear convincing.

That he is dead is more relevant than why.

To you maybe, since your win condition is to kill off townies, for me the why is important because it can lead to the who did it, also another attempt to deflect away from the point I made about why she behaved like that.

Have a good look at this again and at her explaination

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

It has little to do with this game and everything to do with the other focus of his attention, if I guessed right

first she asks me why she did not play like a pre programmed robot and then she explains that cryptic message as saying she was referring to some out of game nonsence, clearly the truth as it often does lies in the middle.

I'd also like to repeat that all Brian did in this game, ISO him please, is defend GM, attack those who attacked GM and piggyback GM's reads, plus some fluffy questions about people's play he never bother to follow up on.

Note as well how she hurried to unvote JM, by far her biggest suspect, or are you now claiming JM was never a suspect? And how now she keeps appealing to him in her posts (please don't vote me JM! CrisP is a jerk and you know it ), this is mafia trying to save her skin at it's best.

[CrisP]

Ah yes, I was almost forgetting two other important points.

1. Nobody questioned my alignment while I was attacking JM, other than Brian, he gave a strong town read with one problem, he says he is worried about associative tells, that's the mafia cop out strategy if something goes wrong. So just from that by the way JM is actually the best town read we have, even assuming GM BR is not the mafia pair, it means mafia wants JM lynched, and GM voting JM from the start of day 2 takes on a new level of scummy.

2. What happened after GM posts her second defence, first she appeals to logic, which she thinks, and you are right!, is the best argument to make to convince me, in order for JM to look bad (post 350), then once she realizes she is flogging a dead horse she sends her cryptic message to Brian, and finally starts to question my alignment.

I think it's a pretty good case:

VOTE: Goodmorning

[CrisP]

Actually I just noticed I still made one mistake, this:

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

is not GM telling Brian she is going to buss him, this is GM telling Brian to start executing the cop out strategy, we have a conflict of interest with CrisP (because he doesn't want to kill JM anymore), my senses are tingling (and well they should since she posted this just after I told Brian I was disappointed he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum).

And that, I think, is the nail to the coffin.

[CrisP]

P-EDIT:

Actually I just noticed I still made one mistake, this:

@Brian: conflict... of interest... senses... tingling

is not GM telling Brian she is going to buss him, this is GM telling Brian to start executing the cop out strategy, we have a conflict of interest with CrisP (because he doesn't want to kill JM anymore), my senses are tingling (and well they should since she posted this just after I told Brian I was disappointed he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum).

And that, I think, is the nail to the coffin.

1. For conflict of interest discussion see above
2. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

sorry

sorry

it's just

I told Brian I was disappointed he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum

he hadn't resorted to posting kittens again, implying I thought he was scum

implying I thought he was scum

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i mean, usually i try not to be a dick but the massive weight of your bullshit just broke my civility filter[/quote]

I don't mind at all, this kind of reaction is hard to fake so you were probably talking about some out of game related nonsence there.

I do find your attempt to drown the whole thing into walls of text rather tedious though.

[CrisP]

So "your reasoning about jmo is WIFOM and bad, we will discuss it postgame" is what, exactly?

It means you find it bad because you know beforehand that it's wrong, so naturally that reinforces your belief that WIFOM dicussion in general is problematic and you are going to say so after the game. If you were not mafia, you would not be so sure about it is the assumption.

If you think I have a problem lying as Mafia then maybe you need to go meta me a bit better.

What I said (talk about misrepping) is you interject as much truth as you can toghether with your lies, I'll check to see if I can find a game that can be cited when I have time.

Do you think these actions tell on his alignment? On mine? Show your work.

They show there is a connection between the two of you so you probably share the same alignment, it's not something that happens very often by chance, and is more likely to happen to the 2 mafia than 2 random townies because the two mafia know they have a common goal, so yes, yes, and here you go.

Why would I claim jmo was never a suspect?

Based on what you are currently stating or not stating about your Buck read, early, not random, reaction test, who knows.

What makes you think he's presently my biggest suspect?

You said you had 2 suspects at the start of day 2, since what you are doing with the Buck read is very murky, that leaves JMO. Again a question about sematics that has no bearing with the accusations per se, the accusation being you are voting someone that mafia probably wants to kill, the reason behind this is nobody really questioned my alignment up to now, the assumption being mafia would try to question my alignment or discredit me like you did with your p-edit if I was heading a lynch against a mafia.

Where was I appealing to him in my posts?

Appealing in the sense of look, I respect you JM and I'm unvoting you:

jmo has played plenty of games and is likely as familiar, if not more so, with Nacho as I am.

Which would be scummy at the beginning of D2: me voting my strongest scumread, me voting a weaker scumread, me voting a townread, or me not voting at all?
And which would be the towniest?

This is another attempt to bog down the issue with a pop quiz, the point is JM is likely to be town, you should have likely noticed, but you were still voting him

I'll retract on my alignment because that was mostly based on my bus interpretation.

Actually your massive use of walls of text is another tell, why would town want to create so much content it's very much impossible to sift through it, find the good stuff and the nonsense, only mafia profits from the total confusion you appear to be trying to create.

[CrisP]

Your walls are walls of questions to others, which would require even longer walls to answer, to which you then reply with other questions, often generic in nature, that would create a longer wall if answered. Most of my long posts were opinions I had at the time, reasons why I was accusing someone or more in general stuff you could just read about, get a read on me based on what I was saying and agree or disagree on.

Everyone is a white knight this game it appears, yes I have heard of it and since when does white-knighting include piggybacking on someone's reads? Also I would understand him white-knighting you now but he did so when there was no reason to as well.

Basically Brian has been an extension of you this whole game, I find that very strange, I find also very strange that your reaction to his behavior is: he is clearly town, if that happened to me I'd be suspicious as fuck about the guy doing it.

Also I find ArcAngel9's behavior unacceptable at this point.

I agree with you that Buck chiming in is strange, I think it was probably a good natured attempt to help but it's the kind of thing you can easily misinterpret, so I'll have a re-read as well.

[CrisP]

Yui113 it may be a tell if it looks like someone is generating walls for the sake of it, they may also be used to hide information you don't want people to pick up on.

I agree that long posts per se is a small town indicator if anything because mafia risks making a slip with everything they post whereas town needs to blunder about to try and find them out

[CrisP]

My questions to you are vitally important to my read of you, generic as they may seem.

Ok, tell me again what you want me to answer and keep it reasonable and I'll do my best to answer the question directly and not the context you pick them from

Equally possible that it's just buddying or any one of a number of other things.

Definitely, most of which should raise a big red flag for you from my POV, so I don't understand your blanket statement on not planning a Brian vote at all. Or are you saying that Brian as town usually buddies up with you, do you have an example if this is the case?

[CrisP]

I do mind, in fact I'm convinced you are scum and making me waste time, but since I can't be sure here it is.

For the rest of the players I'd like you to note the nature of the question she asks, if you take it out of context and answer general questions the way she asked them, her behavior looks perfectly fine, but if you consider the context then all the answer I'm about to give change, as an example: what is most town to vote for? Your strongest scumread of course, but does her scumread make sense for a townie considering what happened during the game? I think not

Is it a bad thing to question one's reads?

No

Which would be scummy at the beginning of D2: 1. me voting my strongest scumread, me voting a weaker scumread, me voting a townread, or me not voting at all?
2. And which would be the towniest?

1. You voting a townread.

2. You voting your strongest scumread

(the number are not part of her quote, I put them there to make it easy to read).

So "your reasoning about jmo is WIFOM and bad, we will discuss it postgame" is what, exactly

A tell that you have more information than the rest of us.

When did I say it was a reaction test?

You said you used it as a reaction test:

Nobody yet picked up on the thing that I wanted them to pick up on. Why is it that my reaction tests never work?

@Crisp: Nice avoidance of my dislike there. Also nice sudden noticing of the part of my post I left for you pertaining to Buck.

So I don't know if your read is a valid read or it's a read you left there for some other reason, assuming as I am not, that you are town.

I'm starting to lose enthusiasm about forum mafia by the way, considering a slot can go afk for the whole duration of the game, in real life I can just harass the shit out of quiet people at least.

[CrisP]

I'm fine with this kind of wall Brian, if you prefer then the nature of goodmorning walls is a possible scum tell to me:

Can you elaborate on this reasoning?

Simply that mafia always gains when a town is lynched because it gets them closer to their win condition, so it's very unlikely that at least one of the mafia would not put in his vote in this situation, given that RM was scummy enough it would have been perfectly town to vote as well, masking their intetion to lynch a town, and that the case was not a blitz vote but something that developped during the day and lastest till 3 hours from the deadline (so the possiblity that both mafia were otherwise occupied during the process and didn't vote simply because they were not aware about it is very slim).

Looks like mine from Day 1. Oh wait, it is!

Yes and does this pair make sense to you now? (also it's GM's pair before it's yours )

Consider that if BW and JM are mafia buddies, BW just bussed him so hard that a random vote from a newcomer (Yui113) or an unpredictable lurker (ArcAngel9) would have killed his partner and made it so much likelier that you and GM had picked scum from the get go, so next day he would have to defend himself the whole time from you. Does this seem like the kind of play a mafia would make? Does this seem like BW's mafia playstyle? Also like I asked GM and BW, have you seen JM fake the asshole defence under pressure or is it something he does when he is accused by new players like RM said and I verified by ISOing him?

I agree that this slot is null, but the inactivity is starting to become a liability.[

[CrisP]

woops, that was posted in the middle, sorry

I agree that this slot is null, but the inactivity is starting to become a liability.

She is also a massive low hanging fruit, so you bringing her up is a small flag.

but I agree, the more I look at her defence day 2 the more it looks like she is town.

If you read on you will see I believe that her defence looked town because the accusations that were moved against her were wrong, so she just had to be truthfull to be convincing.

General etiquette on this site is to not hammer without at least having a claim.

Nobody brought up this point when RM got lynched, if this is standard practice then GM saying RM looked very scummy for doing it is pretty bad as well.

If you want to kill off a liability, there are better choices. The DC/AA slot hasn't done much and I disappeared for a bit (which would have put me in the liability category)

This was clearly a joke, marked by the , you using it to push more on the low hanging fruit is worrisome (see earlier quote).

No, Jmo's in the right. Unless the scum-team was a pair of noobs, it's unlikely to happen.

read again, the important thing here was to understand whether Yui113 actually believed this statement.

Bothered by this statement a bit.

You do know, that a completely valid response to this argument you keep throwing around is that you're part of the scum-team, right?

Normally you should be, but in this game I have been put in the unique position of being correctly recognised as town by most people, either because I was the only one trying to move this game forward amidst a bunch of lurkers or because mafia actually wanted to give me town credency because I was pushing on the wrong people, so I'm trying to use this as much as possible. Why do you think you are the only one stating he is worried about it?

Lurker prejudice. Mislynched a lurker. Nope, not seeing the superior quality.

You will have to agree this is the case if you and GM turn out to be mafia.

This, so fuck-off from this particular line of logic before somebody gets mod-killed.

One of the reasons I thought out of game stuff was improbable was because you had just all told me it was explicity disallowed, she should not have posted it in the first place then.

[CrisP]

Two other snippets:

1. Consider the BW JM relationship, one votes the other, says he is a liability and scummy, risks lynching him, the second calls the first a fool town but doesn't otherwise interact either to accuse or defend.

2. Consider the GM Brian relationship, both white knight the other, in one case with a blank statement, and both have the same mafia reads.

Which of these two pairs, given where we are now in the game, with a new player Yui113 we have no real big reads about and a giant lurker slot, is more likely behaving like you would be as mafia?

I'm not discounting other pairs here, I'm saying if it comes down to GM vs JM, at the moment I'm pretty sure who I would vote for.

[CrisP]

What are you talking about?

A big part of me accusing her was that she decided to claim VT, something that in my games you never (!) do, why would you claim VT, if the lynch doesn't go through then mafia knows you are not a power role and can ignore you as a NK for the rest of the game. But if this is standard practice before a lynch here (why?) then the only thing I really had against her was her very poor motivation for voting JM plus her lurking being a reinforcing factor.

As far as Rach goes, it's not something she couldn't do as Town, but quite frankly it's incredibly scummy of her.

Are you referring solely to her voting for JM here? Because the way I read it at the time included her claim as well.

@CrisP: Yui is Town and obviously so.

Nonsence on the obviously, unless you are coming out as mafia and telling me he is town? I played at least 3 live games where one guy faked being new at the game and then turned out to be mafia but nobody thought he was scum and we did not lynch him. However while I'm not sure at all, I'm leaning town on him.

As you told me, what is better, to question one's reads or to take them as given?

My most recent opinion of Buck is leaning that way too, as you so conveniently ignored.

Not at all, but what you are stating now is far less telling then what you said when there wasn't so much pressure on you, if you are mafia now's the time to misdirect and change the cards on the table, as you appear to be doing.

Also if you unvoted JM for one reason and one reason only, and I presume here that you mean that you don't think he is scum anymore, then please give me your current mafia reads.

[CrisP]

GIF was pretty blatantly Town and Yui hasn't done anything to make me question that.

I disagree, at best GIF was leaning town for me, because I read his early bandwagon on you as more of his town gameplay than his mafia (I know BW that you find it scummy, but different players have different tells), but blatantly? No way, the only fact we have at this point is that RM was town and GIF also voted for her.

[CrisP]

At this point I'm starting to meta this and think AA is mafia and her lurking is being recognised as a strategy so that's why she hasn't been mod killed yet. I might also pull a JM here and say if AA is town and you can do that I want her blacklisted in my games.

[CrisP]

why youre indicating that i am playing against my win condition? explain that first

You said so yourself

lnfact lurkers are easy scum targets.

It pisses me off in the extreme, that while I as town have wasted a few hours trying to figure out who is mafia and who is town in this game, you, assuming you are town, have decided to join my game in order not to do a fucking thing and give mafia an easy lynch to point at, not only that you are also helping them, assuming you are town, to stay hidden because we don't have a clue about your slot which just makes it that much harder for us.

The fact you even ask this question makes me wonder how many games of mafia you have played by the way.

If you are so busy you can't post a damn thing then stop posting prod dodges and ask for a replacement, I notice you are not to busy to reply when people directly question you, eh?

As far as I am concerned you will either post something good in the near future, leave this game, or recieve my vote for today's lynch.

And your vote on me by the way is really indicative of how you have been playing up to now, you just don't have a clue.

[CrisP]

What's the difference between her walls and mine, and why is this a possible scumtell?

Your wall was full of information about what you think and don't think about, after you express your thoughts you ask questions if they don't match what you are stating, from that I can get a read on you. Her walls were just general questions not related to the discussion and did not answer what I asked of her, which served no purpose to me, whether she can get a tell out of them, assuming she is town, is open for discussion.

It doesn't have to make sense right now. We don't even have a scum-flip yet. It's better to get the first scum in hand before you start worrying about associative tells.

Let's not mistake your opinion with what is better, just because you decide to hunt for scum separately doesn't mean that making connections is a bad strategy.

1) Hard-bussing can give him towncred. And it's not a bad compromise if he felt his scumbuddy was in trouble.
2) Jmo and BW are not necessarily linked. This is why I told you to not worry so much about associative tells.
3) He might be confident that he can talk his way out of it.

This is all possible, the question is, what is most likely to happen in a given situation, and your points while valid are unlikely to me.

It's important because I have had separate town reads on BW first and JM now that i tested how he would react right before getting lynched, so the fact that GM first and you second put them both toghether as scum is something I wanted to examine. If you are town and think that they are reading less scummy now, this is in part thanks to my effort so I don't see why you would discount it.

Never played with him before. And unless I have a very specific reason, I don't meta people.

Basically you are saying here you are lazy.

You're asking the wrong person.

I am asking everyone, your reply is useless for town.

Also, low hanging fruit can't be scum?

Definitely, it just worries me because I have a mafia read on you at the moment, this kind of statement isn't going to help one way or the other.

But if the accusations against her were wrong, then what do you think about the motivations behind the people pushing those accusations?

Since I'm the accuser I know the motivation, I wanted to put the people who voted for RM on the spotlight.

If it's standard practice, then I don't understand why she'd have to point it out. Also, most of the other players in this game have enough experience that they'd know better.

This is inconsistent with a newbie game, if I were IC and playing with a bunch of new people I'd make sure they knew what was possibly scummy and what was just normal. She cleared this point herself however by saying that she voted RM only for her vote on JM, I tend to believe her here, I misinterpreted her when I read it the first time.

Would it matter if she did? Does it change your read on her slot?

First of all Yui113 is a guy, second of course it mattered because he had the opportunity to quickhammer a guy so if he as mafia thought he could get away with it chances are he might have done so, if you believe like I do that he actually thought it was possible to get away with a quickhammer then the fact he did not quickhammer points to him being town or to the slot he had the chance to quickhammer bieng his mafia partner. Why are you asking me this, don't you follow this game? You look very uniformed given the questions you are
asking.

Being read as obvtown by the player-base without being concerned about it isn't a town mindset.

But I am worried about it, that's why I have been trying to understand if:

- it was just due to me unluckily ending with a bunch of lurkers thus making it clear I was town by virtue of being the only one trying to post useful stuff
- Mafia wanted me to look town because I was pushing on the wrong people.
- Mafia are part of the lurkers so they did nothing this game including putting suspicion on people.

And I don't know why I'm the only person worried about it.

Again this is completely useless. Compare it to my answer to you.

You act as though people can't chainsaw their townreads or have similar reads. I assure you, both can happen and there's the possibility both of us are just clicking.

Not at all, I am saying it is an anomaly that is well worth investigating, whether it was something that happened by chance or something else is for every town to decide, I don't like it.

What's the benefit in lying about her role? And if she's in danger of getting lynched, claiming VT isn't going to save her.

Are you kidding me? What is the benefit of claiming VT?

As you said if she is about to get lynched claiming VT won't save her, so if she actually gets lynched this statement has 0 value.

Let's examine the case where she does not get lynched, always possible at L-1, then at the end of the day mafia have a pool of 5 (2 mafia, 1 lynch and 1 VT are not under consideration) into which to kill to find a PR, compare it to the case where she does not say she is VT, then mafia have a pool of 6 people. This means that if she is not lynched the statement she made actually give mafia a 3.3% better chance of actually lynching a PR or in other words is of negative value to town (keep in mind this is only day 1, with every lynch the numbers become progressively worse for town).

So the net result of this statement is that it's always bad.

If you were in a set-up where the existence of a cop was a given, wouldn't you want to take every measure necessary that you don't accidentally just lynch him because he was playing poorly?

This is very different from letting someone out himself as PR if he is under risk of getting lynched, that's obviously a good thing.

[CrisP]

Crisp, how would VT false claiming PR be useful. If I was the power role I would claim bullshit and get him lynched asap. It would be the equivalent to me of actually finding out that someone is mafia during the night

I agree BW that false claiming as a VT is bad, minus a few cases where you can show the real PR you are helping them with your claim, I am saying you should never claim VT!

If you don't claim at L-1 mafia may assume you are vanilla, but what if you are confident you are not going to get lynched? Mafia doesn't know for sure what is going on, if you cone out and say it however then there is no doubt anymore.

Also with your vote

you put ArcAngel9 at L-1, hammer only with intent!

[CrisP]

Which ones are unlikely and why?

All of them, because given the situation we are in mafia have little reason to behave in the ways you bring up:

- 1. JM wasn't really in trouble without BW's vote.
- 2. You and GM gave me the scumpair, I run with it to see if you were talking BS or made sense.
- 3. This is just crazy, even if he is confident he can talk himself out of bad situations there is no point for him to put himself into a bad situation for the sake of it.

Why can't low hanging fruit be scum? How do you determine what's low hanging fruit and what isn't?

Once again (really?), low hanging fruits can

definitely

be scum, I just don't like that

you

brought this up, because from my POV you have a possible ulterior motive to do so, this motive being to deflect from you being mafia or you being mafia with GM.
A low hanging fruit is someone that has been playing in a suspicious manner and is considered an easy lynch, it may be like in AA's or RM's case that the player in question lurked all game and did not contribute to town, or there may be other reasons for it.

Your accusation might not be the only one. People can vote for different reasons, especially if they're scum. That's the important thing.

True in general but not pertinent, since I was the only one doing the accusing.

I'm trying to figure out your experience and whether or not you're scum.

As I said at the start of this game, I often play IRL mafia, but this is my first forum mafia experience.

Explain to me the benefits of lying about her role.

I already answered this, plus I never stated anywhere that VT's should lie about their role, I don't know where you and BW inferred that, see my answer to BW for the rest.

And I find it hard to believe a player would get driven to L-1, be forced to claim VT, and not get hammered.

I agree, that's why claiming VT is extra bad, not only do you help mafia but the moment you claim VT you will be lynched for sure. What I said, for the n-th time, is that it makes no sense whatsoever to claim VT also:

"Hey, you guys don't trust me. I'm a VT. We're not in a game compromising situation. Go ahead and use my flip to find scum."

is just shitty town, there is no reason for you as VT to accept that the rest of town is going to lynch you in order for them to get information on your flip, unless it's an autowin for town because there are enough confirmed slots that just lynching the unconfirmed is enough, you should never accept this.

It's much better as VT to put up as good a defence as you can in the hope that you can convince town not to lynch you, after all you know for sure you are town, the next person town decides to lynch may be mafia. If you still die town will know you were VT and they get exactly the same information they would have if you made your VT claim and if you don't die then that's even better, you might have contributed to getting an actual mafia lynched with your good defence and mafia doesn't know for sure that you're just VT so you might be NK'd instead of a PR.

The ony possible reason for claiming VT I see, is in games where the role of the dead is not revealed and you have a way of checking if the claimant was telling the truth, but that has nothing to do with the actual setup we are playing in.

Also to Buckwild, if AA flips town what information have you gained (since you were saying these walls give you no information and you wanted to move things along)? As far as I am concerned you just made the problem we have today, thanks to RM, twice as bad and put us at LyLo. The AA lynch is not something that town should just go into with a light heart because if we are wrong, there is a good chance we are screwed, that's why while I told her her play was utter crap and unacceptable, I did not personally vote her yet.

Also a point on Yui113's vote, the frustrated town vote as you call it Buck (which I did not make): I'm more inclined to think that that's more his past experience from his other forum games where lurking is considered pretty damning, I actually like Yui113's vote because it makes him look more consistent and hence more town. I hope you are not screwing me Yui cause at the moment you are the best townread I have.

[CrisP]

Haha, I see.

Please don't hammer unless:

- we get close to the deadline

- she actually talks and most of us agree what she has to say is scummy.

[CrisP]

I implicitly agreed, under the above stated conditions.

[CrisP]

We usually don't lynch people without claims and I'm trying to explain to you why her claim wasn't bad because she was expected to claim her role in the first place.

I gave you a logical undisputable argument on why her claim was bad, if you don't understand, the problem is on your side.

[CrisP]

Again, while I present to you a logical argument to why you are full of crap on the VT claim, look at your reaction.

What you are saying is, since everybody claims VT, that must be the right thing to do, regardless of how flawed it is.

I'll try to meta you and see if you normally are this dumb when I have time, this might also be a decent excuse to vote me without raising too much suspicion if you are mafia after all.

[CrisP]

Crisp - Go and fuck yourself.

I already expressed the same sentiment with regards to you in a more civil manner.

This guy has to be the scum, His aggressive playing and dodging and seeking for lynch targets is not town motive.

Aggressive playing is not mafia, looking for information is not mafia (which is not equal to seeking lynch targets), there are so many reasons I can't be mafia in this game your statement is just funny. Just to name one, if you are indeed town, I'm not hammering you idiot, when I have had a perfect excuse to do so for the last 2 days, were I mafia.

Also you already voted me moron, at least try and keep count about who you are voting.

What is mafia or mafia friendly is lurking the whole game like you did.

Now help me to lynch this Crisp nonsense shit.

There is no way you are getting me lynched, if you are fucking town, like you told goodmorning, stop this, post valid reads or I will have you lynched in the near future.

[CrisP]

All you would see an opportunist who ended up targeting someone who has hardly been here..

Sure, that's why I am voting Goodmorning at the moment, that's also why I went after JM day one, are you serious? Do you even know who is voting you at the moment?

I agree that its not fair for not been here but that doesn't make one scummy.

It makes you scum friendly or scummy.

His meta reference on me is BULL SHIT.

meta reference on you? Quote please.

Goodmorning knows my play.

I like how you assume Goodmorning has your best interest at heart, for all you know she is mafia this game.

[CrisP]

i still want you dead becuz of your attitude.

So you are not even playing for your win condition if you are town, seriously how bad can someone be at this game, if anything you deserve it based on how you are playing, but since I want to win I'll state that if you are town I don't want to have you lynched.

I dont know what you trying to prove by saying that you would have hammered me if you wanted it.. but it wont change anything for me. I will still be town, maybe a dead town. So big deal.. if that's what you're trying achieve.

It should prove to you I am not mafia if you are town. If you die as town you realize you fucked up yes? Or don't you even understand that?

Obviously Crisp initiated it and gave a royal way for scum to walk in there..

Obviously this is bullshit, you initiated it by lurking the whole time, I wasn't even the first to call you out on it today, that came from jmo16mla and Yui113 first, but I totally agree with them so no problem if you say it was me who started it.

I do agree I don't like the BW vote though, mainly because the motivation he gave, the we need to move forwards, don't make sense to me.

[CrisP]

No, I'm telling you that there was nothing wrong with her claim because it was HER ACTUAL [freaking] ROLE! TOWN DOESN'T HAVE A REASON TO LIE, ESPECIALLY IN THIS SET-UP! (Note: there are actually some scenarios where it is beneficial to lie, but that situation has not applied in this game)

OH MY FUCKING GOD. Again, since you seem to have problems understanding what I am saying:

I NEVER SAID SHE SHOULD HAVE LIED ABOUT HER ROLE, I SAID SHE SHOULD NOT HAVE CLAIMED VT BECAUSE THERE IS NO VALID REASON TO CLAIM VT IN THIS SETUP. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NOT CLAIMING AND LYING ABOUT YOUR CLAIM?

You put on this facade that you're obvtown and that you run this town.

I did no such thing, other people put me in their town list, so I tried to use this to give the rest of you as much information as possible, the only way to do this is to lead.

You seem to be more interested in painting players as scum instead of actually finding their motivations.

This may be true for you, it certainly is not for me: Easy examples that come to mind:

- I thought Nacho was scummy because I did not understand his confidence in JM, he told me why he had the read he had about JM, I said I felt better about him => trying to understand motivation of other players
- I thought JM was scummy because of his early push on GM, I preassured him untill I understood what he meant => trying to understand motivation of other players
- I have been questioning you and GM for the last 3 days => trying to understand player motivation

You assign motivations to things that shouldn't be assigned these motivations.

You set up associative tells and look like you're chaining lynches.

I don't assign motivations, I try to build scenarios. I told you repeatedly that that's how I try to scumhunt, at least from your POV this may be a valid reason as opposed to the rubbish you wrote before this but here we are just using different playstyles, maybe yours is better in forum mafia, I can only use what I know and this has worked fine for me up to now.

[CrisP]

You have no logic to call me scum and hell yes.. you initiated all that crappy wagon.

I dispute that but honestly, if you want to think I started the wagon on you I don't mind, given that you are finally talking the rest of town that understands how this game is played should give me brownie points for it then, although I don't really deserve them more than Yui113 or JM.

I don't need "logic to call you scum" to start questioning you, I need you to be useless to town as you have been for that.

If you read all my posts about you, what I am doing is trying to make you talk, I pressured you at the start but once it got to L-1 I was the first to say we shouldn't just go ahead and lynch you but wait for you to talk and I was also the only one to state that if we were wrong on you then we had wasted a lynch. Does this look like opportunistic mafia to you?

It's the difference between claiming and not claiming. She was expected to claim. Period. Why you can't grasp this is beyond me.

Look at how you are stating it, period. That just shows how closed you are mentally. If she was expected to claim, then go back, read my logical argument of why claiming VT is bad and find a hole in it. If you don't, start asking yourself if always claiming VT is really the best play.

[CrisP]

GM is your townread of Brian more of a day1 or of a day2 read?

[CrisP]

Let me try to IC this to bed:
She claimed VT because that is telling us "I am not a PR, it is OK to lynch me."
Yes, occasionally people will believe this and not lynch said person. Yes, that does limit the NK pool for Scum.
However, this almost never happens, and especially not with any smaller a playerlist than D1 one of a Mini, and especially especially not in Micros because it would be much more limiting (down to 5 or 6 on D1 of a Micro vs. 8 or 9 on D1 of a Mini vs. really a whole lot on D1 of a Large).
Newbie games are Micro sized.

Can we stop arguing about this now and pay attention to the game?

As I said even in this case that play is bad, I'll stop arguing with you about it when everyone understands the point. I've noticed by the way that neither JM nor AA deiceded to claim VT at L-1 either.

Not a huge fan of the way CrisP accuses Brian of going for low-hanging fruit as to AA9 when CrisP is urging that lynch on.
For that matter, not a huge fan of the way CrisP has been insinuating that wagon without having been on it for a while now.

I have not been insinuating the wagon for a while now, infact I have been trying to pause and let us think about it. What I have been doing regarding that slot is getting it to talk. This is diffrent from what Brian did, that being cast suspicion on that slot while he was under fire.

This sentence basically says this: look at all the Town things I'm doing! There's no way anyone who acts Town can be Scum!

For someone who's supposedly spent the whole game acting Town, you've done an awful lot of telling us that.

Obviously if people decide to vote for me I'm going to tell them why I'm not scum. The other times I mentioned it were to make you understand where I was coming from with my reasoning.

It was a D1 read. Now that he's started posting more, it's both.

My vote stays on you then.

I do have a shiny new D2 scumread that I've been working up to voting, though. Anyone want to tell me who they think it is?

If you think it's me, go ahead!

[CrisP]

For those on the AA vote, what do you think about her now that she has talked a bit?

Honestly I'm not confident enough at the moment that she is scum for a lynch to be worth it for me, since her town flip has no strategic value as far as I'm concerned. It reminds me a bit of the RM lynch we made day 1, so I'd like to know how confident you guys are that she is scum.

Yui113, other than her what are your reads at the moment?

Jmo16mla, wasn't your vote mainly to put preassure on her and hear her talk? What do you think about her now?

Buckwild, you voted her for things to move along, did you notice you were putting her at L-1? What do you think about how "things went along"?

[CrisP]

Dammit guys I'm convinced the scum team are GM / Brian and AA is just bad town, check DC as well before you decide to vote for her, did he look scummy to you before she took his slot?

Look at what happend day 1:

GM early votes BW, no explainations given -> GM gets wagoned on by JM -> Brian comes in, after a lurker slot that never posted anything other than to confirm she was in the game and says his scum team is JM and BW -> JM almost gets lynched -> RM comes in after lurking and gives a horrible reason for voting someone -> Everyone pounces on her and she gets lynched.

day 2:

GM early votes JM, no explainations given, other than she only has two suspects left -> GM gets accused by me (after an interlude with JM and BW where I was testing her reads) -> Brian comes in and says his scum team is now me and JM -> GM says she has a new scumread, no explainations or names given -> AA after lurking all game comes in and gives a horrible reason for voting me-> Everyone pounces on her and...?

Do you see a freakin pattern emerge here? I don't know what else to do to convince you guys.

Jmo16mla doesn't it bother you that Brian still thinks you are scum and has been after you all game? Cause the only evidence he gave against you is that you and BW where not interacting with each other, that's not even valid anymore, if it even was a good reason to start with, since apparently we are the new scum team now. Also he wasn't so sure you were scum when he decided not to hammer you at L-1, did he? Does that seem consistent to you or more like someone making up reads and coming up with your name since it has been an easy scum slot for most of the game to point at? After all his only interst is to buddy up with GM so at the time he just had to say I was scummy, then he chose the most convenient name as his second scum, thinking it was safe to point at you.

Buck you said you found Brian scummy, wouldn't you rather vote for him than DC's slot? Forget about AA for a moment, what has Brian done to make you think he is more town than DiamondCrash when he was playing, also which lynch has more strategic value for town? At least if we hit a town with Brian we can be pretty sure about GM.

Yui you seem set in your ways so I don't really know how to convince you to change vote other than to tell you to check the posts DiamondCrash made before he was replaced by ArcAngel9, also check out RachMarie, she seemed obviously scummy but at the end of the day she was just vanilla town. I agree AA looks scummy but I'm not sure she actually is and if you are wrong, then we wasted another lynch (since AA has no connections whatsoever) and those that live after the NK will find themselves in the same situation as today but at LyLo.

If you all think AA is scummier, then please post a good accusation so I can see why you're sticking with your vote as well.

[CrisP]

Also now that I can speak about since it just ended check out mafia GM in game 1447, in particular look at how she and her partner where the only ones not voting on a town day 2. That's another reason why I am not keen on the AA lynch.

No, I think Jmo is an opportunistic hypocrite.

In what sense? Can you give examples of this?

Buck is scum. if you guys can't see that it is too sad.

Show me by posting a good accusation of why he is scum and if you are right I hope you can convince me.

[CrisP]

After prompting Brian to vote me for most of the day you finally join in and go V/LA.

Remember when she said she was withholding her vote to get a reaction? Turns out she doesn't need one anymore, I ask the rest of you if you would behave the same way as town, that is wait for someone to find some evidence, right or wrong that it may be, against you and then place your vote against that person?

What I got from the whole pantomime about her vote was she was unsure about commiting it in case it gave away to the rest of you that I was on the mark about nobody pressuring me while I was going against JM because mafia was fine with that, whereas now that I'm after GM the wind has changed.

1. AA is Town.

This is what budding up looks like to me Yui113, what I said was I hoped you were town, otherwise mafia really owned me this game.

VOTE: Brian

You are at L-2

[CrisP]

I think we have good reasons for lynching Brian today. I can see why you would find Buck scummy if you are town, but I don't see a consensus on that lynch forming in 24h. I'd say it's more a discussion for tomorrow if we live, Buck lives, and Brian flips town.

[CrisP]

The best player in this game was clearly GM, from the moment she self hammered onwards.

Jokes aside, my respects to MG who won for town despite his teammates, to Buck for looking town till the L-1 on AA and to Brian for pocketing GM so well.

[CrisP]

Well... you got a false positive on Buck so that was not really helpful, but good job on randomly picking mafia I guess, you gave away that you were a power role day 2, which I desperately tried to cover up, your insistence notwithstanding, you failed to hammer on day 2 (which might have easily lost the game without the GM self hammer, you need to grow some stones), finally the track on Brian didn't add anything to the game at that point.

If the stuff you said about MG, asking him to promise that his BP claim was not a joke, which led him to retract his claim, was a play, then that was pretty good but it did not work cause Brian killed AA anyway, if it was not a play then I'll plead the fifth.

[CrisP]

Because you managed to look town to most of us and you were on board with the Brian lynch but not so vocal about it that killing you would have been like pointing an arrow to himself, is my guess.