Mini 1515: Touhou Imperishable Night (Game Over)

[mastin2]

Yo.

Normally, with me being the first poster (or among them), I'd have some sort of gag/gig to announce, like a self-inflicted post restriction, a crazy plan, some sort of 'crumb, or maybe a fakeclaim, to get the game going. Unfortunately, I neglected to actually think of anything to use in advance, so I'm going to just wing it a bit, here.

I'm town.

Vote: thezmon221

.
Probably not town.

Discuss.

[mastin2]

Let's go through the list.

1. BROseidon
^Town. Nacho's in the game, so that means he's guaranteed to win. Since I'm town, and I'm intending to win, that means he's going to be town, too.

2. Ghostly Penguin (Ghostlin + penguin_alien)
^Probably scum, but eh, we'll see.

3. Mac
^Mislynch bait, but ultimately, probably town.

4. MafiaSSK
^Got a third party vibe, here.

6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd)
^Okay, honestly, probably scum, but dammit, I'm calling them town because I want them to be town.

7. pieguyn
^Town.

8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8)
^Also town.

9. thenewearth
^Townlean.

10. thezmon221
^Scummy.

11. Varsoon
^Town, this time.

12. waynegg
^Couuuuuuuuld be scum, but gut says town.

13. zMuffinMan
^Eh, will figure him out later, but null for now.

[mastin2]

Or re-ordered,

TOWN:
BROseidon
Nachomamma8's hydra
Varsoon
pieguyn
Mac
thenewearth
waynegg

Morph the Cat

THIRD PARTY:
MafiaSSK.

NULL:
zMuffinMan

SCUM:
thezmon221
Ghostly Penguin


...Damn, I forgot how much fun it was to do this.

[mastin2]

hi guys.

Dammit, ffery. (That's you, right?) It's going to be hard keeping you out of my scum list if you keep posting like

this

.

[mastin2]

Like, I even looked through the multiple translations from google translate just to find that one awkward totally-off translation.

I'm struggling to find reasons a town-you would be misrepping; care to help me?

[mastin2]

(<3)

[mastin2]

(By the way, hate to break the light-hearted mood, but I'm leaving soon, and won't have a chance to say it later. Legit, serious townreads on Varsoon and Psychlone right now.)

[mastin2]

So, you drew that scum card...
How do you plan on going about getting town lynched without being obvious about it?

Wording here's a bit of a loaded question, wayne. But to answer--a scum-me will aim to manipulate town players into being paranoid of one another for the long-term mislynches, while on the short-term, allowing compromise lynches. (A town-me almost never compromises on lynches because compromise lynches are a surefire way to lynch town players. )

how are you not reading me as town?

Because I want to have perfect 100% accuracy in reading you, meaning I want to wait on that callout to make sure.

VOTE: thezmon221.

[mastin2]

6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd) <- town
8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8) <- mafia
10. thezmon221 <- town
13. zMuffinMan <- mafia

These ones I want elaboration on. (Granted. I can actually maybe see the Psychlone one. But Nacho being Nacho, I'm not going to even go near considering a wagon on him. )

penguin_alien checking in here, antennae twitching, wings flapping in fewer than a dozen posts. mastin2, why vote for the player who is scummy versus the one who's probably scum?

Because I don't want to go 95% sure on you (specifically you) being scum only to later be forced to backtrack when the Ghostlin half of you begins towntelling.

[4] thezmon221 (mastin2, zMuffinMan, Ghostly Penguin, Varsoon)

I feel like between the five names here, there's going to be only one scum total. (Maaaaaybe two, if bussing, but probably only one.) Theoretically could be all-town, yeah, but I don't get that vibe at all.

Who the scum is, hell if I know. Could be thez, could be GP, could be Varsoon. (Don't think it's Varsoon, though.) Don't think it's Muffin at this point, but eh, we'll have to see.

A couple comments by BRO have pinged my radar, so he's a lesser townread than he should be, but I'm liking his overall play right now enough to have him as a townread.
Also, pie's town.

I'm beginning to get worried about this game already. This game's already giving me a slight deja vu vibe from Chosen, in that we have a ton of strong players and everyone here is amazingly good as both scum and town, which gives the scum in them an overall advantage as the town players rip each other to shreds in paranoia. :/ (Ah, well. At least I'm a universal townread, which means short of paranoia coming to bite me in the ass, I'm getting nightkilled within the first three nights, pretty much guaranteeing I won't live 'til lylo. I might end up entirely wrong about my reads, but I'm not going to have to suffer through them. )

Basically am skimming/skipping the Varsoon/pie exchange. I know I shouldn't. Because it could have scum in there. But I just don't feel like sorting those two out in their spew. It seems like something that will become relevant later in the game, but right now is absolutely worthless to look at.

nacho is townreading mastin hard for his #24.

Makes me feel bad that both townreads there are weaker, now. (Not gone, mind you. Just not as strong as they were when I posted that.) And I'm fairly certain the reasoning doesn't hold. Quite frankly, if in my 130+ games, I've never broken the RVS flow as scum, I'd be surprised. (I am town, yes. But I'm concerned about the reasoning behind it.)

Yo, Wayne. I see your Varsoon vote. (And Muffin vote.) Got reads beyond that? Would love to hear anything you've got, even if it's weak.

[mastin2]

Basically, Wayne. I want your stances on everyone, right now.
Varsoon vs. Pie, you think is TvT.
Muffinman, you think is scum.
Morph you...think is scum? (Not exactly clear.)

What else you got?

[mastin2]

Talk to me about this.

Will get to it in a sec. I want to look over wayne's reads, but before I do that, I'll do this, and before I do this, I want to say that I do think wayne's town, although I admittedly don't know his play very well.

[mastin2]

pagetoppin like <fuck analogies>

Bork is a modding god.

[mastin2]

What about Varsoon is bothering you?

Oh, a few random things here and there (things that are probably null and potentially even town, but still make me paranoid), but overall, basically nothing. It's mainly caution relating to townreading Varsoon too easily. I think he's town, but he's not a townread I want to put confidence into.

[mastin2]

I took that as tongue in cheek.

This one pinged.

I'm also scum-reading zmuffin, but that's because I don't believe the PGO claim and I always scum-read zmuffin. I was even scum-reading zmuffin in Xenogears. I had to constantly check to make sure he wasn't on my team that game.

...

OKAY EVERYONE LISTEN UP, READ THIS POST BEFORE YOU POST.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Claim: PGO

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS IS NOT A JOKE, THIS IS NOT A TEST, I'M A PGO SO IF YOU'RE SCUM PLEASE TARGET ME KTHX

No wonder all those crumbs slipped by you guys...

This one, too.

If you're expecting reasons for the ping, too bad. I have none. Pure gut.

[mastin2]

I'm having a problem, this game. One moment, I'm seeing things from people which make them look scum, the next, look town. And I'm not seeing it from one or two people. From pretty much everyone. It's not "YOU'RE ALL SCUM!" or "THERE'S NO SCUM", because it's not happening simultaneously and in synch with one another, happening in phases. But it's still there, and still quite problematic. For instance...

So I've been hinting that I wasn't townreading you and you didn't respond at all.

This is actually much the same as my thoughts on morph. I don't have a townread, and this thought looked town.

In particular, I'm not liking morph's exchange with wayne. I don't know what the problem with wayne is; he looks like his town self to me.

I don't like this.
If you think a player is scum, you should go after them, regardless of their perceived strength.

this post pinged for me.

penguin_alien checking in here, antennae twitching, wings flapping in fewer than a dozen posts. mastin2, why vote for the player who is scummy versus the one who's probably scum?

Because I don't want to go 95% sure on you (specifically you) being scum only to later be forced to backtrack when the Ghostlin half of you begins towntelling.

Why would you worry so about retracting a blatantly joke read?

Town

5. mastin2 - interactions and early town reads, read going stale somewhat for Cabd (and ffery)

HEY, MASTIN! When you get back, my parenters fucking question. I need to know if you've turned into a cheeky scum fuck in my absence like you did in Micro 242.

Thanks, guys! Now, instead of dieing N1/N2, I'll be dieing N2/N3!



But seriously. I'm town. I didn't even mean to be, but I somehow became obvtown. I may not be obvtown enough to die immediately, and my reads are CERTAINLY not accurate enough for me to die immediately, but simply put, I'm practically a walking corpse with how dead I'm going to be. To the point where if I'm

not

dead before D4, something has gone horribly, HORRIBLY wrong.

To answer Bro--you haven't seen the full history, but you've seen part of it. In Xenogears, in fact. I wasn't townreading Nacho then, but his mislynch was almost a direct result of me pushing this heavily. Another aspect of it can be found in Chosen, where that same paranoia came in on D2.

To answer PA--my reads list and my response to it both seem like jokes, and were...but that doesn't mean there isn't some hidden depth to them. It's buried, but you can quite clearly see the subtext that I'm painting here, with predictions about the psychology of other players in relationship to the psychology of each other (myself included), how they work, their general experience, what I've seen of their games, and so on and so forth. Basically, while my comment looked like a joke, it was dead-serious in the effect that I predicted a scumread on you and a townread on Ghostlin, simply off of my experience playing with you two.

And, coincidentally enough, it actually came true. Dead serious. I'm scumreading you and townreading Ghostlin, with the townread on Ghostlin being ridiculously weak. I had no way of knowing that I was going to, before-hand. But I predicted as much, including in my response to you, how I would ultimately end up having trouble reading you. Overall, off of experience, I'm making the call that you two are town. But that call is violating every warning in my gut to do so. It's my head, screaming, "DAMMIT, MASTIN! STOP SCUMREADING THEM!" because I know it's bad to do when you're not scum, and while my gut's screaming that this game has you as scum, it also is screaming at me to listen to my experience, which would tell me that you're not scum.

As for the morph post--I didn't like it. It pinged my radar, but heck if I know what in their reads list felt off. (Actually, it mighta been this one. But it was one of the two for sure.)

pie could be scum, too. I'm not sure. (Probably not, now that I think about it.) Heck, I still don't like most of thezmon's posts, but overall, I'm basically concluding that thez is town because others I think look worse, others' interactions with thez don't look scum-scum, and I have a gut feeling that thez's posts here are closer to thez's towngame than to thez's scumgame.

Varsoon continues to look townish to me, but that's about as good as I can get on him. It's too early to be sure. In Xenogears, there's a lot of hindsight-wisdom with regards to him, where he pushed scum-motivated agendas. I could see those things being done, I can see them not having been done. At this point, too early to have any confidence one way or another, but I'm defaulting to town because that's what my gut's telling me.


...Like I said. I'm hardcore waffling on just about everyone.

VOTE: morph the cat.

[mastin2]

Besides, I feel pretty good someone will have my back.

If you had waited a day, then I would have had yours in-thread. You didn't need to claim, wayne. Considering most of the players suspicious of you have seriously pinged my radar, the wagon on you (and even if not "on" you, then supportive of it) looks ridiculously scum-driven. In the future, analyze your wagon before making claims.

[mastin2]

And by the way.

I'm totally going to go Bert on y'all and point out how we're wagoning easy players. (For the most part.)
TNE, not exactly a strong player.
MafiaSSK, not exactly a strong player.
Wayne, not exactly a charismatic player.

Among others. (There's probably more wagons I'm forgetting about.)

It's nothing condemning, but it's certainly concerning. I'm not seeing anything from TNE which pings me either way, quite frankly. And on SSK, there's nothing TO be pinged. But I fail to see how the lack of content is alignment-indicative from him.

[mastin2]

1. BROseidon
3. Mac
4. MafiaSSK
6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd)
9. thenewearth
13. zMuffinMan

For better or for worse, I'm focusing on the names in there a bit. Mac seems townish, I've got a gut feeling SSK and TEN are town, which'd narrow it down to {BRO, morph, zMuffinMan}, but that doesn't seem right at all. Soyeah. That's basically where I'm at right now. I know it sucks. I know it's not good. But it's what I've got.

[mastin2]

Mastin, can you elaborate a bit on your Morph read?

It's not so much that they feel like scum as it is that they don't feel like town. I'm reading their posts, and simply not seeing them as town-oriented. They seem more manipulative and scum-motivated than inquisitive, if that makes sense. They don't look like super-mega-scum at all; they've said a ton of stuff which is kinda townish. But overall, I'm not feeling them as town and am sorta-kinda feeling them as scum. It's weak. But as pathetic as it sounds, that weak read is probably my strongest scumread.

[mastin2]

So you don't like going after strong players that you scumread early because you're afraid that you might mislynch them.

Yes?

I don't see why you think this is strange. I'll make notes of strong players that I scumread, and point it out. But I'm not going to push them. Not strongly. Because I'm not a scumhunting god. I'm a decently-mediocre player, even upper-mediocre. My reads are right more often than they are wrong, but they ARE wrong, and wrong a ton. What if I were wrong on that strong player being scum? Then I've just sabotaged us both, and given the scum a MASSIVE edge. It's better to take things more casually. And work with them, hash it out so to speak. Let them see it, let them have a chance to talk me out of it, basically, prod about it and get more info on them before I make a final decision.

It's not the kind of player I want to commit to on D1, if that makes sense.

[mastin2]

I've replied to you. I don't see much work with or hash out happening here, Mastin. And I see a whole lot of oooooh but I might be. You wouldn't be distancing would you?

Honestly, I kinda suck at reaching out to you. It's there, but it's sorta subtle I guess. Probably too much. But I'm not sure what else I can do, other than blatantly spending a lot of time on you and forcing it through. But I don't want to force it through. I want things to flow organically. And I'm doing as much as I can to make things go that smoothly, yet they're apparently not strong enough.

(Also. I can't be distancing unless we're both scum. )

I am trying. I'm trying to figure things out. I'm trying to talk to you. But this is the best I can do.

Since his vote is on us, I'm assuming that means he thinks we're not strong players.

I can definitely understand how you'd interpret it that way, but it's not. You seem to be assuming that my vote on you is an attempt to lynch you. It's not. Quite the opposite, I fully expect the lynch to not be on you. My vote's not on you to pressure you. It's to make a statement about my reads, essentially.

In that...I'm desperate. I really, really don't have anywhere better to go. I don't. I simply don't. I wish I did, but I'm not seeing it. It's not a vote saying that I want you dead. It's a vote saying that I've literally got nothing else I can think of to do. Granted, I maybe shoulda used the bold tags rather than the vote tags to emphasize that. But my scumread on you was just strong enough to warrant the vote tags. In that I DO think you're scum, and decently-strongly, too. But...I'm far from certain on it. I'm not confident in it at all. I would prefer to go elsewhere, even. I just...literally, cannot think of anywhere better for me to go.

I don't like the part where mastin disappeared for just long enough for me to notice, but then posted before I was going to call him on lurking, then engaged with limited parts of the thread.

That's called my weekend V/LA, BRO. Check my sig. It's been there for months.

where does the scum read on PA come from?

Gut. I think that I just always scumread PA naturally.

what do you think about my point on his second post feeling out of place? even apart from that, he'd probably be in my scum list just by pure poe at this point. i have too many town reads.

Don't even remember your point. I'm quite certain I read it at least once, so that probably means I saw it, and basically went, "meh". And that's the thing. This game's full of strong players. It isn't the least bit concerning to you that you've gotten so many townreads on so many of the stronger players, and have the weaker players as scum via POE?

Yeah, I'd be ecstatic if it were that easy, but it NEVER is. (Hell, there's a damn-good reason I'm like 98% likely to be wrong about the three of {you, morph, BRO} being scum. Because that would be far too easy and I am no scumhunting god.)

we're 30 pages in and you're still not town-reading me. you even left me out of your big waffle-wall completely.
do you really find it this difficult to read me?

Nobutyes. No, you're ridiculously easy for me to read. But yes, you're difficult for me to read.
"...What."

Basically, I can read you, but I need to think things through about you and pick up on the right things. I'm a bit rusty on your scumplay. The last scum game of yours that I can find is Death's Diner (I saw a SK game, but that doesn't count), but you were a replacement there. (And, yes, I did read a fair bit of that game. Even considered replacing in at some point, but obviously never did--I scumread you there, by the way, Muffin. ) Honestly, I'm putting it off until you've posted enough for me to get a good baseline on your play, here. Because I know I can read you, but I also know that it takes a little bit of time to get things accurate. Again, looking for the right things and all that.

Gun to my head, right now I'd say scum, simply because of overall gut feeling that this is you mimicking your Xenogears play while motivated by your Death's Diner play, if that makes sense. But that's a purely-arbitrary callout, made entirely because I haven't really put in the effort to confirm anything. I haven't done the meta, I haven't keyed in on it, I haven't analyzed if you're obvscum or obvtown, yet. Probably because I didn't want to get it wrong.

[mastin2]

Gonna backtrack a bit.

I think I remembered a key element of zMuffin's scumplay compared to his townplay. (THINK. I need to check.) If I'm right, then that aspect seems like it's absent from this game, which'd make him most likely town. But I do need to double-check that.

[mastin2]

Okay. So quick research overall makes me think that I'm right. It's something I'm not putting much stock in, because it's quick. I'd prefer to have done far more detailed and in-depth research on it. It's certainly possible I'm remembering the wrong things to pick up on with regards to zMuf. But what I've found with this quick dip into meta

does

suggest that he's town, albeit not nearly as strongly as I should be reading him.

Granted. This is mostly meta. Weak meta, at that. But it's enough to bump him into the town pile. Going purely off of reads, my opinion on zMuffinMan is somewhat muddied, though. I liked his thez push, and a lot of the early bits in his iso. His bits on wayne and SSK, though, not so much. Overall, he definitely does look like town, scumhunting, rather than scum, fighting for survival and working to manipulate.

[mastin2]

On GP: They definitely could be scum, but I kinda get the same vibe from them that I've seen overall. Them as individuals (Ghostlin as a minor townread), and them as a hydra too. (Their play here seems to strongly resemble Death's Diner.)

On Mac: Gut-town, decently strong enough where I'm semi-clearing him.

On SSK: Also gut-town, reinforced by me not liking the push against him.

On Psychlone: Minor townread, but too early to be sure.

On Varsoon: looks like town.

On Wayne: Definitely looks like town.

On zMuffinMan: See my previous post; town.

I'm mostly writing these players off at the moment. That leaves...

On BRO: Got nothin'. Well, nothing at the moment. I'll get back to you in a bit. Overall, kinda sorta think he's scum, but hell if I know.

On Morph: seriously my best guess, and even then, that's terrible.

On pie: I need to re-evaluate things, here. See if pie's town or not. I don't know. I've said pie's town, but I need to make sure of it.

On TNE: Similar to SSK, but actually a bit weaker, in that TNE could be scum, but I simply don't know.

On thezmon: I'm seeing more of a town-thez than a scum-thez, but I'm not exactly confident in it.


What the hell does this leave me with?

WAFFLES. HARD-TOASTED WAFFLES. DRENCHED IN SYRUP. WITH A TOUCH OF WHIPPED CREAM, BUT WITH NO CHERRY ON TOP. NOT EVEN A STRAWBERRY! (There may be a Raspberry, though. ) AND MAYBE WITH A DASH OF CINNAMON.

Butyeah. Looking in {BRO, morph, pie, TNE, thez}. Heck if I know how accurate that is. BRO and morph are the only two I'm not really townreading, with TNE at a close third, but the other two I need to take a closer look at to make sure.

[mastin2]

What do you want to talk about?

I don't know, and that's part of the problem. Even my decent townreads like wayne and zMuffin and such aren't strong. But they're townreads all the same. And...that's the issue. A lot of the people being pushed don't look like scum to me. I don't think wayne is. I don't think SSK is. And yet, people like you are pushing them as if they are.

[mastin2]

(Random fun fact: it was completely coincidental. I swear. This game had zero reasoning for me to start rewriting this article. I started it with as part of my efforts to get my MD threads recorded as wiki articles. But by complete and total coincidence, just about every single piece of advice in there is what I'm doing right now, because I need to have it done. )

I don't really trust your reads at the moment because I know for a fact that your strongest scum read is wrong. What I don't know is how off-base it is, e.g., to what extent my play somehow justifies the misread. Unless I get a handle on that, I don't think you're going to be very effective at convincing me one of your other reads is solid gold.

Nor should you trust my reads. *I* don't. If I don't trust my reads, nobody should. As a general hint. My scumreads are typically far more off-base than my townreads are.

Butyeah. What I'm actually looking for isn't for you to convince me you're town. What I think I'm mainly looking for is for you to tell me who's scum, and to do so in a way that I can synch up with it. 'Cause on SSK? I'm not. At all. At worst, I see him as null. At best, as town. I'm not feeling him being scum at all.

[mastin2]

just pagetoppin' for the hell of it

Bork is awesome.

[mastin2]

Changed my mind.

VOTE: BROseidon.

Think morph's town, but not getting that townvibe from BRO.

[mastin2]

It reads that I'm talking to him as though he could be town.

I am. Sad as that is.

[mastin2]

BRO's posting style seems to be becoming more and more like AP's every day :/

No kidding.

To start: Mastin is probably fucking Town.

Only

probably

? Ghostlin, if I could fake this attitude so convincingly as scum, it'd be scummy-worthy. I'm town.

Mastin's "fuck I made myself far too obvtown early" + a couple of his wafflefests felt very genuine to me, like he was thrust out into thread and just started ranting.

For the record: a "fuck, I made myself far too obvtown early" attitude would technically be my scum meta, because scum-me being obvtown early is a literal death-sentence. My most successful scum games are the ones where I'm NOT obvtown early, but rather, sorta-town, and progressively more town. If I start as obvtown, the only way to go is downwards, and thus, a scum-me would not be amused. Also, ranting is part of my scum meta, too, in that I've gotten so many scum PMs this year that I'm kinda sick and tired of them.

Now, a "whoops, I made myself obvtown" attitude, on the other hand, that's a town-me. And a town-me does have a MASSIVE tendency to

ramble

. These subtle, but vital, differences mark the difference between the town-me and the scum-me. (For the record, though, this is the town me. It was a "whoops" combined with rambling, not a "fuck" with ranting. )

gut-town based on what?

On gut. Granted, I'm beginning to come around on SSK. I don't like the push ON him, but I'm also not liking him, either. (Maybe he really IS third party...... ) Could be town (though I'm beginning to doubt it) being pushed by scum, could be scum being bussed by scum (I'm beginning to think this), could be scum being pushed by town. I'm not sure, anymore.

Think morph's town

why?

(<3 vollkan.)

Town:
{mastin/morph}
{wayne/thez}

scum:
{mastin/morph}
{Wayne/Thez}

The bracketed groups are groups where I think both people look bad, but are mutually exclusive as scum (what I had for bnb/nick in Xenogears AND YES I KNOW I WAS WRONG ABOUT THAT)

Uh-huh.

VOTE: BROseidon.
For emphasis.

[mastin2]

mastin what's wrong with BRO's post. i dunno if I'm overlooking smth cause i'm tired as hell but I don't see it 0.0

A lot?

(This is a mental note that I'm basically thinking pie-scum is possible with BRO-scum, but eh, pie-town's not impossible either.)

[mastin2]

i meant, which posts gave you this gut feeling? or is it not based on his posts?

It

was

just general feeling, but that's since atrophied.

b

B is for BAH, which I'll be needing in this game eventually.

[mastin2]

I don't know shit about the other people in this game. I only joined in August so I'm not at all familiar with how everyone here plays, besides some random things that don't form a coherent basis for much. so for now I go almost exclusively based on how the game is being played. sometimes I'll find a personal thing but IMO I can see things better when I look at it this way. I feel it's pretty obvious based on my questioning what most of my reads are.

Problem with this, pie, is that I've got you pegged as a decently-competent player, if not moreso, yet you're basically playing the newb-card this game.

Okay, granted. As far as players in this game go, on a strictly technical note, you ARE the newb in the game. But that doesn't make you a newb, and you seem, so-to-speak, too smart for it.

town
3. Mac <- I liked how he was discussing the merits of "scumslips" earlier. sure everyone was saying it was bad, but he seemed like the first who really questioned the whole validity of "scumslip" as a scumtell as a whole, and backed it up with evidence.
12. waynegg
13. zMuffinMan

null-town
1. BROseidon
8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8) <- GiF seems less serious in this game than what I know of his scumgame, but that's from my one completed game with him, which isn't even on this site, so I'm not sure how accurate that even is. I was thinking he didn't seem to be actually doing much and instead just responding to things, but disengagement explains that.

null
2. Ghostly Penguin (Ghostlin + penguin_alien)
10. thezmon221 <- noticed more flow-going with him 440
11. Varsoon

scum
4. MafiaSSK
5. mastin2 <- he's giving me weird as fuck vibes. his post with all the :Ps seems kind of forced for me, as well as him suddenly pushing a scumread on me for asking what was up with one of his scumreads. he seems to be overemphasizing the fact that he's not confident in his reads and it seems like him flip flopping around helps to emphasize that.
9. thenewearth. also he's obviously Cirno who can't even be in this game making him mafia

here's an idea

@MafiaSSK:

make a real post plz or die :>

This looks like a bus, I'll be honest. The bit about SSK looks like scum talking to scum, with them in the scum pile. IF I'm right, that'd make TNE town, though. IF I'm right, I think the buddy would be in the town range, and the candidates for that are BRO (likely) and Psychlone. But all of this relies on pie being scum, which quite frankly is just a random thought I had that I have zero backing for.

(Also. Every time I can think of me being town and someone noting my usage, I remember them being scum.) And, yeah, I don't have confidence in my reads. It's an intentional emphasis, though. It's so that when I gain the confidence, I can flip the switch, and then bam, bingo, scumhunting god. (Not really. But improved, at the very least.)

TNE's 885/886 look good. Mac's looking town to me as well.

[mastin2]

no vc last night on account of i was drunk

But drunken VCs are the best VCs!

[mastin2]

VOTE: MafiaSSK

That might be L-2.

It is.

[mastin2]

For the record--I want an SSK claim, but not a lynch. (At least, not yet.) While I think he's scum, he's far from certainly-scum, and I want us to all have time to analyze his wagon from both perspectives. If he's scum, who his scumbuddies are (such as if they're bussing, and if so, who), if he's town, who the scumteam is (and how many if any are on the wagon).

Again. Kinda sorta thinking the scumteam is or is planning to bus SSK because he's not exactly a stellarly-strong scum player, but also think that they'd probably not be overly keen to jump on an easy mislynch; scum like those to be made up almost or entirely of town. This is just my guideline, not a rule, so I could be wrong, but even if not, I think there's some merit to it.

[mastin2]

While I think he's scum, he's far from certainly-scum, and I want us to all have time to analyze his wagon from both perspectives.

[mastin2]

For future reference, when I say claim, I mean ROLE. Not full.

[mastin2]

(Also. Every time I can think of me being town and someone noting my usage, I remember them being scum.)

so it's suspicious when I try to avoid personal tells, but when I mention this personal tell, it's also suspicious?

Maybe? I don't have a better answer than that.

oh my god wtf
I dreamed last night that when I woke up this game suddenly had 107 pages, and someone had dayvig'd zmuffin and he had flipped mafia doctor. what the hell is wrong with me @_@

Silly as it seems, I've always had a soft-spot for people posting about their mafia-related dreams. (Mainly because I used to be the one doing the dreaming. )

if I'm at least a semi-competent player, then why would I make the most obvious and transparent as fuck bus ever? especially when you've got a whole thread going "stop bussing" and gave some good reasons as to why bussing isn't necessarily a good thing, I don't see how you could place me as a semi-competent player yet think that's a bus. o.o

Eh, I'm calling it as I see it. If I thought you were scum for sure, I'd be voting you. But I don't. Regardless of whether your shot is real or faked, the move you just made looked incredibly town to me, as a start.

Slight niggle about Mastin for that claim demand given the caution in bork's post.

I didn't want SSK to claim his flavor, which bork warned us not to do. I wanted him to roleclaim, which bork's warning didn't seem to be about. (Thus, my "for future reference" post.)

[mastin2]

(In fact, it's quite explicit about it being flavor-claims.

>>>Important: There are eyes and ears everywhere. Flavor Claim at your own risk in this game.<<<

I wanted SSK's role, not his name.)

[mastin2]

Town

pieguyn - lol dayvig. Way he went about it is legit town thought process. No way there's a scumdayvig in a mini, anyways.
Mac - Ffery's read

Lean Town

Varsoon - I disgree with him on some stuff, but he's the towniest player in the list atm.
zMuffinMan - this is becoming a pattern. I'll like his entrance into games, get weirded out about some of his early posts and stances, and then work my way back toward a town read.
thenewearth - moved up from null
Psychlone - it worries me a lot that I don't have enough data to develop even a preliminary read. Much as I loved the hi guys case, it's worn off. I know Nacho's stolen laptop situation, but GiF get in here and talk. Step it the fuck up giffy.

Null

mastin2 - I think scum-mastin would actually work harder on mislynching me, because I don't think I get much more mislynchable than town-morph at this point in the morph-evolution. I like some of his reads, and like them some of them more than I originally did. Claim demand from SSK seemed weird.
waynegg - I don't know how Cabd feels but I've come back to what seems to be my usual take when I read waynegg's posts - intentionally chaotic and abrasive, reaction seeking, and ultimately not all that effective. Some sort of order usually emerges, and he does a fair job of interacting with his town reads later on. I'm watching for signs of that happening.
Ghostly Penguin - Not as much content mixed in with the invective as I'm used to seeing. IIRC we got off to a rocky start in the Diner game but eventually our reads and stances were pretty synchronous. Waiting to see if that happens here.

Leaning Scum

BROseidon - there's a huge reads/reactions disconnect here that I'm not used to seeing when we're both town. Xenogears being a counter-example. I feel like we occasionally come close to the same page on a player or post and then it falls apart again. I'm worried this means scum-BRO.
MafiaSSK - sorry, mastin. I still have somewhat but not entirely meta-based concerns here.
thezmon211 - the back and forth between him and waynegg has me leaning scum, mostly because his arguments have been as much about discrediting waynegg as about rebutting the substance. I know that a word choice based case isn't easy to refute. In fact BRO tried to spin such a case on me in xenogears, and my reaction was to laugh it off because fuck no I was town.

I'm not exactly liking this reads list, by the way. It's changed, but basically only in the top half. The bottom half seems to be stagnant.

[mastin2]

That said, goes without saying, pie's pretty dang town now. So let's go through things a bit.

[mastin2]

1. BROseidon
2. Ghostly Penguin (Ghostlin + penguin_alien)
3. Mac
6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd)
8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8)
9. thenewearth
10. thezmon221
11. Varsoon
13. zMuffinMan

The relevant players. (SSK we'll know the alignment of soon enough assuming the shot was legit, which it definitely looks like it is. Pie's town, and wayne also is pretty damn town. Consider them my tier-1 town.)

Varsoon looks town, zMuffin looks like town, and I *think* Mac's town as well, though I admittedly don't know him well enough to be sure. (Let's call those my tier-2 townreads.) Which leaves...

1. BROseidon
2. Ghostly Penguin (Ghostlin + penguin_alien)
6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd)
8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8)
9. thenewearth
10. thezmon221

...Six names, for 2-3 (depending on SSK) scum slots. Now, that's not to say I don't have reads on these players. I just feel like I need to explore each of them a bit. Be back in a while, to see if I can elaborate on my feelings about each. Because, bluntly, aside from BRO, I can see any of them being town (though Psychlone is probably the most concerning to me, with the other two hydras not far behind) or any of them as scum (though I'm admittedly on a purely-HOPING basis looking mainly at TNE and thez).

[mastin2]

Though that said, morph's probably town. (The real concern is on Psychlone and GP.)

[mastin2]

Why do you want him to claim his role?

Because he was at L-2. He was the center of attention, likely to be the D1 lynch down the road. We'd get more info from him claiming earlier than we would from him later. Note that I was off the wagon yet suspicious of him, which meant that if I were to have voted him, he'd be placed at L-1 which'd have warranted a claim anyway.

And he did claim, for the record. He claimed VT.

[mastin2]

Helpful Mastin-meta hint:

If my posts seem rock-solid and logical, but feel faked, I'm scum.
If my posts look like they're flawed and full of holes, but FEEL really legitimate, I'm town.

[mastin2]

Now that I've stolen bork's page top, some details.

also @mastin: I'm actually really curious where you got the idea that I'm a semi-competent player. it makes me feel warm and fuzzy :3

Just general feeling I got, I guess. When I see you playing in a game, I think, "this person's good." Not great, but good--and recognizing that goodness, I also follow through with the thought, "And is probably only going to get better". I dunno. I don't have anything that'd tell me you're good or not-good. It's just the vibe that I got, that you're that decently-competent player who's going to increasingly become competent as they gain experience.

I guess I'll have more details for ya after a game or two with ya, and if you ask me again then, then I could potentially give you feedback on how to take it to that next level, but for now, I just have that gut feeling about you and your potential. Dunno why, but I do think it's true.

the thing is I'm saying you set up this dichotomy (personal reads vs. no personal reads) and then no matter which side I choose you say it's scummy. if you say one side is scummy and the other one wouldn't have been, it doesn't make sense to go saying "owait now the other side is also scummy".

Like I said. Kinda calling it as I'm seeing it. I don't even remember my posts well enough to honestly know what you're talking about for sure, pie. I don't doubt that there's a contradiction, but since I flat-out don't even remember it, that's about as much as I can say.

I read this as "I can't answer this question so I'll call him town and hopefully he'll stop questioning me" 0.0
I'm really not sure if I'm actually legitimately seeing all this or if it's just paranoia

Well, you are seeing it, though not quite that. I can't answer the question, I am calling you town, and I find the questions towards me a little bit distracting, but I don't mind them. Helps me get a firmer grasp of things overall, I'd say.

[mastin2]

that'd be fine, but last time I tried that it turned out the person in question was just doing a good job of emulating her town meta T_T

Fair 'nuff. In fact, it's more than fair enough; it's exceptionally fair.

'Cause another part about Mastin meta is...there is no real true Mastin meta. I vary my play each game, adapting it to the playerlist regardless of my alignment, though the reasons of course differ. (As town, to best work with the others. As scum, to best manipulate them.) So it's fully possible that a scum-me is managing to convincingly-fake that town-tone, that legitimacy. Especially since I typically do things legitimately even as scum a fair bit. (For instance, legitimate roleclaims. There may be a one-little-lie in said roleclaim, but a scum-me's favorite tactic is to use that almost-truth roleclaim for massive towncred.)

But for what it's worth, I'm town. This game would be easier if I were scum ('specially given how much practice I've gotten this year ), but I'm town, soyeah, we'll have to figure this out, hash things about, and lynch scum.

[mastin2]

Mastin, I'm kinda surprised. I figured you'd be interested in getting potentially last will and testament stuff from us just in case that shot was real.

Didn't you give them already?

[mastin2]

MafiaSSK's very first post after I made that shot leans obvscum (sad that he got shot without really being pissed off about it). the rest of it leans town but it could be because he realized the shot might be fake = = kind of conflicted on the read I got from him.

Dammit, now me saying this will sound like it's sheeping you.

Butyeah. That was my exact same thought as well. First post looked like scum, rest look like town.

[mastin2]

where the hell did I ever say that? his first post was obvscum. his ones after that were slightly town but those don't count cause he probably realized the shot could be fake and started faking them

You're saying it now and were saying it then.

It's the exact same thought I had.

[mastin2]

Said it before, will say it again.

I simply don't know how to talk to you two.

I don't know why I don't know how. I mean, I know how to talk to most people. Heck, you can see that with how I've interacted with pretty much every single other player here. But for some reason, when it comes to you two, I get static. Blankness. I should be interacting with you. I know! You're right. But for some reason, which I really wish I had an explanation for (but obviously don't), I just find it...hard. Awkward. I have no clue why. It's not a problem I've had very often. (Heck, I can only think of one or two times it's ever happened.) But it's there, that mental block.

I'm town, I think you're town, but I am having trouble so much as talking to you. There's no explanation I can pin down. No logical, no reasonable, way for me to justify it. It's just...there, and I'm trying to fix it, but obviously not with much success.

[mastin2]

Are you trying to mindfuck the Town?

Nope. The two statements work to augment one another, 'specially when you throw in a third for completion. (Town-Mastin flips a switch from a reads-mess into a scumhunting pseudo-god; Scum-Mastin flips a switch from being a pseudo-scumhunting god into being a paranoid reads mess. You've seen this first-hand, Ghostlin, in Xenogears [mess-to-refined] and Les Mis [refined-to-mess].) I have VERY strong tendencies as town and as scum. They're not absolutes of my play, though. I can have a towngame resembling my scum games, and a scumgame resembling my town ones. All of this is true. It'd be flat-out lying to say that these things are absolute, but it'd also be lying to say that they're not present at all. Basically, while I spoke in absolutes (bad habit, I know ), I'm being as transparent as possible, here. I am town. And if you're town as well, then you'll come around eventually.

Tell me why you can't talk to me. You had zero issue talking with me in xenogears when I was pushing your wagon. What about it being morph makes me unapproachable?

Hell if I know. You're right; it's not you. It MIGHT be ffery, but even then, I kinda don't think it's her that's my problem, either. I think it's somehow the magical combination of you two which makes it a bit hard. But that said...

I'm really not sure what your read of us is, given the above two posts. We're in your list of 6 players where scum must lie, but you think we're town anyway.

This I can work with. (Right now, I think me being a bit reactionary and responding to questions will be more useful than proactively asking them. I know, not a good plan as town, but it's better than nothing.) That post shoulda been taken as you being bumped out of the six and reducing it down to five.

But, not as town as varsoon, zmuffin and Mac? Is that what you're saying?

Basically, yeah, I'd say yes. Town but not as town. Though that said, the strength of all my townreads is MASSIVELY in flux; you're at the bottom now but could be above the other three later, or in the middle at another time.

And by the way, a huge concern I have here is that there's an all-around lack of scumminess. SSK is probably scum, but even he has townie bits in his posting. TNE could be scum, but kinda looks like town via gut. Thez could be either. BRO looks like scum, but I don't have much confidence in that. Psychlone is concerning, but also has a lot of town. GP looks a bit like scum to my gut but something's telling me despite that, that they're town. In addition to Mac (who I believe to be town), you (who I also am thinking are town), Varsoon (who could be scum but looks like town), and zMuffinMan (who looks town but I need more research to confirm), there's wayne (who is probably town) and pie (who almost certainly is town).

While I believe fairly strongly the tier-1 players are town, and have a decent amount of confidence in the tier-2 players...I honestly could see an argument for anyone in this game being town and anyone being scum.

[mastin2]

I'll respond to stuff later, but...

VOTE: BROseidon.

[mastin2]

Just want to point out the modification to my signature, because apparently nobody notices them, now has an important link in it. (Important because I am lonely and I crave attention. )

[5] MafiaSSK (zMuffinMan, BROseidon, Psychlone, thezmon221, Morph the Cat)

2 scum in those names? it's possible there's only 1 given how many people were softly supporting that wagon without actually jumping on it. i'm guessing BRO is one and if there's another it's in the late supporters {thez, morph}. i didn't like the way either of them slid onto the wagon.

I was thinking a maximum of only 1, actually. Like I said, SSK being town makes me think his wagon was also town-driven, counter-intuitive as that may seem.

I am voting BRO for a combination of reasons. First off, his overall posting has been bad; zMuffinMan said it best when he said to read BROs iso. That, alone, wouldn't be enough to condemn him. 1085, however, is. It's as blatantly scummy as a scumpost can get coming from a player of his caliber. (By which, I mean, of course it's not going to be entirely terrible. Of course it's going to say stuff that looks sorta good. But overall, it's just. plain. awful.)

First off, the entire method of catching up is scum-oriented, in that the stream-of-consciousness posting he's doing is meant to make him look like an ignorant townie, but the simple fact of the matter is, it's fake-as-hell. He knew damn good and well what he was doing the entire time he was typing it, and bluntly, he wasn't in the dark as much as he was pretending to be. Then there's a bundle-load of bad things in the post. I'll quote them later when I have more free time available. Basically, they're convenient, they're opportunistic, they're artificial-as-hell, and overall REEK of pushing a scum agenda.

Mastin feels very studied this game.

I really don't know how you get that impression, seeing as how if I were actually well-studied, I'd have something concrete on players.

Bit of a side-note, but it's definitely actually a concern of mine that Ghostlin ISN'T townreading me. I'll hold off on the reasons why, but needless to say, I feel that a town-Ghostlin would be townreading me, and it's concerning me that he hasn't.

/more later.

[mastin2]

wait wtf, GP wasn't even on SSK?

It's a ridiculously-common scum tactic to push for the mislynch of a town player with words yet remain off the wagon, so that when said player dies, you've evaded the watchful eyes of VCA players, and the only way to catch that you were suspicious of said flipped town player is to go through the effort of reading, which most players are too lazy to do.

There's a reason I think the SSK wagon has at most 1 scum.

(Yes. I know. I was off the wagon and pushed him as scum, too. I fully realize it makes me more suspicious. Doesn't change that I find the other player slots who've done the same thing to be any less likely to be scum. )

[mastin2]

Speaking of which, not being lazy, I looked at Mac. Who had Mac as a weak scumread, but reversed it in a sense, later defending attacks against him. It's something to look into. (Also, Mac's iso is much shorter than I remember it being, which is another concern; he's been posting much less than I thought he was, and it has me worried.)

[mastin2]

Varsoon's interaction with SSK is also quite concerning.

@Pieguy:

I get where you're going with seeing them making similar plays to you, but the plays that those players made were not the plays you made, which I still hold are scummier. Your recent interactions haven't convinced me to pull my vote from you, and while SSK's claim is weak and doesn't feel genuine, I'm keeping my vote where I feel the strongest.

Other spots as well, but this one in particular seems to ping me as worrisome.

(Yes, I know, I have both Mac and Varsoon as townreads. Consider this morph getting bumped up above them while I re-evaluate. )

[mastin2]

[5] MafiaSSK (zMuffinMan, BROseidon, Psychlone, thezmon221, Morph the Cat)
^I'll need to look at these later, to see the reasons why to be on. But basically, I don't think anyone in here except for BRO and Psychlone have above-average chances of being scum. (Thezmon is borderline, but I'm leaning town on gut.) Psychlone isn't a scumread, either; I really think BRO is scum this game. (Yeah, yeah. I know. I don't exactly have a stellar track record with him. But I think I'm getting better.)

Basically, I'm looking outside the wagon. GP is concerning. Mac/Venmar have pinged, but off the top of my head, still thinking Mac's town. Varsoon, though, I need to be sure of. I caught wind of what may be his Xenogears scum-self in his iso a bit, in some of his comments. (I think comments surrounding SSK.) TNE has nothing about SSK, and thus on that point is null. (TNE's alignment we'll have to figure out the old-fashioned way.) That leaves wayne, whose comments I continue to be reading as town, and pie, who pretty much is town.

Essentially, right now, kinda looking at BRO, GP, and maybe Varsoon as a scumteam, but heck if I know. The switch hasn't been flipped. I'm still in mega-doubt mode.

[mastin2]

AKA I'm looking forward to your "case" so I can rip it to shreds

It'll come tomorrow, most likely. Have time.

"Let me point out how this scummier behavior I've done is scummy so that people are less likely to find it scummy."

Yes. Blatantly. Okay. So those aren't the words I'd use. But I explicitly said as much. Me being off the SSK wagon yet thinking he was scum was ridiculously scummy. Now, I had my reasons, yes. I simply didn't want to be on that wagon. I forget why. Probably either a fear of quickhammers or that I somehow felt him town or both, or something like that. I don't know. But those reasons are ridiculously weak and stretched, since I simply don't remember why I chose not to be on the wagon. It was a choice I made, and it's a choice that a scum-me would make.

The question you're failing to ask is if I could be town who made it and is admitting to have made it. Cheeky a scumbag I may be, I'm not

this

cheeky of a scumbag.

Speaking of which...

Vote: mastin2

I'll be blunt:

No.

IF you are town, Nacho, this vote is bad and you should feel bad. (BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS A BIG FREAKIN HUGE WHOPPING "IF"!) Or, put another way...
If Nacho, </3.

If GiF...fuck off.




/tomorrow. More tomorrow.

[mastin2]

That was nacho.

I know, which is why I made a message specifically to him that only he would (or, SHOULD) get.

IF you are town, Nacho, this vote is bad and you should feel bad. (BUT NOTE THAT THIS IS A BIG FREAKIN HUGE WHOPPING "IF"!) Or, put another way...
If Nacho, </3.
If GiF...fuck off.

I've seen this reaction already.

(1) Technically, the order of the wording's been altered, so you haven't seen this exact reaction before. (2) But as stated above, that's quite intentional on my part. (3) However, you're quoting the parts that're similar. You're ignoring the important bits which're different.

I must admit it felt like a pretty shitty OMGUS from over here.

If it were some random player, I'd have no reason at all to call the vote on me suspicious. But when it's NACHO voting me? (Or, for that matter, Ghostlin not having me as a townread?) HELL YES. Voting me and having it be serious is a scumtell. A town-Nacho right now knows DAMN well and good that I'm town, here. A town-Ghostlin SHOULD know that I'm town, here, too. I fully realize the OMGUSy appearance of that. But I'm telling you that, yes. Them (AND ONLY SPECIFICALLY THEM) scumreading me IS a quite-justifiable reason to scumread THEM. Because I am not scum. Not in a million years is this my scumplay. If this were my scumgame, it'd be scummy-worthy scumgame, with me playing at 200% my normal maximum. And them, specifically them, not realizing it is setting off a TON of red flags.

It's one thing to be paranoid of me. That's natural. That's all fine and dandy. It's quite another to not analyze that paranoia and ultimately conclude it's just that. Thus, the reaction. It's either terrible, or it's scum. Either way, it's not a typical town-Nacho.

have you done this yet? I'm assuming you have since you are mastin after all.

Yup, just these last couple of pages, in fact. It's not concrete yet, but my conclusion has been one scum on and two scum off (with the scum off having weird/absent interactions with SSK). I'm currently reassessing that, on account of Nacho, so stand by for further updates.

Mac's either sheeping me hardcore or is town. (Seriously, read 1179 and compare it to my posting as of recently.)

/more in a bit.

[mastin2]

It's one thing to be paranoid of me. That's natural. That's all fine and dandy. It's quite another to not analyze that paranoia and ultimately conclude it's just that.

To elaborate on this a bit...I'd be the first to admit there are elements of my scumplay in my play this game. And that there are elements in my play that--while not my scumplay--could be perceived as being such. Thus, why being paranoid of me isn't unreasonable, and is to actually be expected.

The problem lies in how they're not assessing that and realizing it's just paranoia. Because while there are elements of my scumplay present, OVERWHELMINGLY, this is my town game. Full-blown town-me. Granted! It's not a town-me firing at all cylinders. (I'm trying, but I think I'm stuck at only about 80%.) But it is my town self. I know my town self well-enough to fake aspects of it, thus why there are elements of my scumplay being present. (One element of my scumplay being...that I know my townplay and point out my similarities to it. ) But I've always had an aspect of my townplay missing in my scumplay. I've always had some critical factor missing, simply because my scumplay--being scumplay--is not my townplay. While I might be able to convincingly fake a fair share of it, getting most of the deal, I can never make a picture-perfect 100% replication of my townplay.

And, bluntly. If I were scum this game, I WOULD have. I'd have succeeded in creating that town play. I'd have exceeded any of my previous scum games, with this being a crowning achievement, a pivotal point in my career. I'd love for that to happen. But as you can tell by this long-winded explanation, it simply doesn't. I'm a good scum player. I'm not THIS good. I wish I was! That, at the drop of a hat, I could perfectly replicate my townplay convincingly. But I can't. Thus, why in this game...me being my town self. Means that I am town.

And, once again, is the reason why not realizing it--coming from players who have EVERY reason to realize it--is scummy-as-hell. Nacho KNOWS this isn't my scum game. Ghostlin might not 'know' it, but he should recognize it as not being my scum game and it being my town game. Again, a full-on elaboration is best postponed until after both of them have posted a lot more, but you get the idea.

I hate to be egotistical. I hate to be arrogant. So when I say this, know that there's zero arrogance attached. Know that when I say this, I'm 100% dead serious, in that it's not me having an inflated opinion of myself, but rather, a god-honest truthful analysis of the situation--
A push on me is RIDICULOUSLY scum-oriented. Period.

(That's not to say everyone pushing me as scum is actually scum. That'd be nearly half the game. Wayne's town. Morph's town. Mac's increasingly town. Pie's town. To name a few players who have at least considered the possibility I can be scum, who aren't scum for it. It's the players who're actually following THROUGH on it.)

[mastin2]

This is Jake from State Farm Mafia 2, all over again.

For those of you who aren't Cabd and therefore unfamiliar with the game...
I was a JOAT-with-a-cop-guilty on D2.

I claimed the cop guilty.

Correct town play? Lynch the cop guilty.

What the town actually did? Lynch me. (Which, mind you, IS A RIDICULOUSLY BAD THING. Not just in that game via lynching the cop before the claimed guilty. In general, lynching Mastin will NOT go well for a town. Period. I can't think of a game where a town lynch on me has actually led to victory.)

I correctly identified it as being a ridiculously scum-driven wagon. I predicted all three scum were on. I was right! They were! (Granted...I thought it was ABR and Maenara, who were the two town players on it. It was actually DGB and Banksys Flareon who were the scum on the wagon, in addition to Magua the confscum.) And the exact same thing is happening here. I believe AP has a slogan which he adapted from some other player. Objectively bad play from an objectively good player being a decently-solid scumtell.

That's PRECISELY what's going on here. A town-Nacho would have realized by now that I am not scum. He KNOWS me. He knows this isn't my scum game. This isn't my approach as scum, this isn't my play as scum, this isn't my mindset as scum, this isn't my scum game at all. Like, 0% of my scum game. I am town. This is my townplay. He KNOWS it's my town game. I might not be an innocent child, but I practically am one. That he hasn't realized it is RIDICULOUSLY bad.

[mastin2]

I can't think of a game where a town lynch on me has actually led to victory.

To clarify, this is a normal town mislynch.

If I weaponize my mislynch into the Mastin Gambit, sure, it can. (WWE.) But even then, not nearly as much as it used to be. Weaponizing my mislynch requires me to actually have confidence in my reads. I have it, it'll work. I don't, and it'll not-work. Right now, I don't have a way to weaponize my own mislynch, because I lack the confidence to pull it off.

[mastin2]

"Never judge a book by its cover", people often say. The proper way to judge a book is to read and analyze. Read, read, and read.

Yeah, and that's the thing. If you judged my book by my cover, you'd have me as maybe-scum, sure. It's in the analysis that I'm proven town, it's in the readthrough that you realize there's not a chance in hell I'm scum.

Assumption is fine, but it only goes so far. That's what the plot twists are for. To shrug off the obvious assumption. It misleads the readers until the certain point where readers are surprised to see such event even happening. Plot twists are what motivates readers to continue reading the book.

That's the problem, though. Assuming I'm scum will only get you so far. Because there's all those not-so-subtle hints that it's not true. Plot twists are something I love. But I love them to be beautifully simple in their elegance. And often foreshadowed heavily.

Bluntly as I can be, I am town. Period. End of the book. It's the beginning of the book, it's the mirrored ending of the book, because a book's ending is often directly tied to its beginning. The twist in this case isn't that I'm scum all along. It's that there isn't any scum in my actions. That, in a sense, there is no twist and that itself is the twist. There is no masterful scum plot present. There is no man-behind-the-man controlling the flow of things. There is no master puppeteer controlling the strings of the game. (Or if there is, they're not me. ) There's a guy, who happens to be a guy in the book, who is just that, the guy in the book, working towards the heroic goal. With no ulterior motive, with no hidden twist, with barely a hint so much as to a dark and troubled past!

Sometimes, the most effective books, the best writing, are those in which what you see is what you get, and when you read the book and see my alignment, it is that which you have known it to be all-along, town, and that there was nothing deceitful about that.

Also, we can add the gratuitous amounts of

unprompted

self meta to why you're scum.

Self-meta used in defense, sure, scum. But I'm not using this self-meta as the defense. I started out just randomly throwing it out 'cause I felt like it. But then, I caught a sliver of something--something that felt

off

about players' reactions to it. So, I prodded a bit further. And now?

Now, that self-meta has been weaponized as an offense. The self-meta I am using is not to demonstrate why I am town. That's quite literally self-evident in all my posting, that I am about as obvtown as a Mastin-who's-drawn-too-many-scum-PMs can be when drawing a town PM. It's to show why others (yourself included) are scum. For not realizing it.

I'll be frank, BRO. Let's deal in the theoretical scenario that you're town. You're barking up the WORST possible tree. And I will hound you, I will bite you in the ass, I will hunt you down and make you dead because of it. But you're not town. You're scum, who's made the mistake of believing that Mastin may actually be mislynchable this game. And it's going to cost you.
(In a bit.)

[mastin2]

Mastin, the more you ramble on about this shit the more I want to vote you just to make it stop.

Don't.

I might be in waffle-mode right now. But this pathway? Very damn well could lead to that switch being flipped.

Let me handle this. Let me do my own thing, here.

(Wayne's town, by the way; he's not scum. His vote might help them, but it actually does have the potential to screw them over, though I won't say why.)

1) Implicit in "If Nacho were town he'd know that I'm town, therefore he's scum" is "I'm town." You've mixed the defense in with the offense.

Yes, it is. But I'm saying I'm town anyway. I'm not using the meta as part of that defense, though. I'm town. Blatantly obviously town. Seriously, SERIOUSLY town this game. I couldn't be more town if I tried. I don't say that often. Hell, I don't think I've ever said it as scum. But I'm not town for meta. I'm town because I'm town. Meta comes into the picture purely on the offensive front. [/quote]

2) It's cute that you think you have a bigger bite than me. Maybe the tibetan mastiff avatar isn't enough of a warning...

Hell yes I do. I'd be a worse version of Nacho in Xenogears if we're both town. By which, I mean, you'd get lynched and screw myself over, but do so on an earlier day phase rather than a later one. Which is, precisely, why I made that offer.

it's really not.

It really is, though. Same scenario, played out in a similar way. A town-me, not having a solid basis in the game. Getting wagoned, with a HEAVILY scum-driven wagon. Oh, and being lynched for "being annoying". It's a perfect reference.
/more coming.

[mastin2]

By the way, scum don't have daytalk this game.

If they did, the scum smart enough to avoid me would be screaming at the scum pursuing me, "STOP, YOU IDIOTS! YOU

TRYING

TO FUCK US OVER?!?"

[mastin2]

Your threats don't scare me, scum

You know, I'll be honest. I get the vibe from BROseidon that he's trying to paint our fight as townVtown. By which, I mean...not that he's town. Not that he "thinks" I'm town. That he's scum, pushing me as 'scum', in the hopes that he'll be written off as town at only the slight cost of me being similarly written off. (Especially since said cost could, in theory, come after my mislynch, and people reading our fight would go, "meh, looks TvT to me".)

Comments like this SCREAM that to me. That he's scum-trying-to-fake-tunneling-town.

[mastin2]

(And, yes, I know. I'm not showing conviction in my BRO scumread and even offered an out, so you can construe it as being me preparing for his townflip and justifying it in advance. I KNOW. Doesn't change how I feel about HIS posting, okay? )

[mastin2]

Your threats don't scare me, scum

You know, I'll be honest. I get the vibe from BROseidon that he's trying to paint our fight as townVtown. By which, I mean...not that he's town. Not that he "thinks" I'm town. That he's scum, pushing me as 'scum', in the hopes that he'll be written off as town at only the slight cost of me being similarly written off. (Especially since said cost could, in theory, come after my mislynch, and people reading our fight would go, "meh, looks TvT to me".)

Comments like this SCREAM that to me. That he's scum-trying-to-fake-tunneling-town.

To elaborate on this a bit. Nacho if he's town should be able to understand it when I...*shudder*...can't believe I'm doing this, but it's the only example that comes to mind...bring up Walking Dead. As scum, against AD, I used this tactic because it's a decent offensive technique, and because it's also a good defensive technique. I was using it more defensively than offensively, but still, it has a great variety of uses, and is surprisingly-handy. It's also something that can signify cornered scum, which BRO also kinda gives off the vibes of. He's a competent player, but that doesn't mean he's immune to being caught as scum.

Another example that comes to mind is my last newbie game where I was scum. (Forget the number, but it's notable players include JasonWazza and uctriton00. And enomis. And Lucky2u. And RadiantCowbells. I don't remember the other players or the moderator, but I'm sure you can find it.) I used this exact same tactic against uctriton, and it almost worked, too!

AND YOU'VE JUST DONE THE "LOOK AT ME ADMIT TO THIS OPENLY SCUMMY THING I'M DOING SO I LOOK LESS SCUMMY" THING. AGAIN.

Yes. Blatantly. My response now is the same as my response then. I'm not going to lie about things. The truth is what it is, and double-standard be damned, I feel the way I do about that stuff.

...Though...speaking of which...in a way? You're doing the same thing. If the stuff that I'm pointing out about you is scummy (despite me having done it), you're admitting that it was scummy of you to have done it if you think it's scummy coming from me.

HOLY FUCK CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WE HAVEN'T LYNCHED THIS.
EXPLAIN TO ME.

Because the town's not

stupid

enough to fall for your strongarm tactics. Which is exactly what you're employing here. You're hoping they'll plow through my mislynch and not bat an eye on the scum on the wagon.

Holy fuck if you repeat this shit again I'm going to park my vote on you, call it policy, and let ffery handle the day to day operations until you're dead or we're dead.

Tough. It's the truth. No arrogance. No ego. Nothing. Dead serious, I've never been more town in ANY of my recent games than I am right here, right now. Period. I'll point it out all I want to, because it's the truth. Simple. as. that. So go ahead and vote me for being annoying. But I'm not scum. End of discussion.

[mastin2]

-I point out scummy thing you've done.
-I admit said scummy thing, I've also done.
-You say I'm admitting to doing scummy thing.
-Thus, you're admitting said scummy thing is scummy.
-Thus, you are admitting to doing said scummy thing.

[mastin2]

by your own logic, admitting to it doesn't make it scummy?

No. Admitting to it is entirely and utterly null, neither making it more nor less scummy.

Admitting to it, and then hypocritically pushing someone as being scum for admitting to it? Yeah, that's scummy, because they're being hypocritical.

Wayne's town. Pie's town. Varsoon's town. Morph's pretty damn town. I'm basically flat-out calling these my tier-1 townreads now. Which leaves BRO, GP, Mac, Psychlone, TNE, thez, and zMuf. And of them?

zMuff is in tier-2. There's tingling bits of paranoia here and there about him, but they're just that, paranoia. thez looks town to me as well, albeit admittedly much weaker (actually, weaker than TNE). Same for TNE, in that I have that weak-ish townread on him.

Leaving BRO (scumread), GP (scummish read), Mac, and Psychlone. Mac, I'm actually starting to doubt my townread on, though I don't have any concrete reasons as to why. (Just gut, I guess.) Psychlone is a deep, DEEP concern for me, as I've already mentioned.

Also, I find it quite concerning how neither Ghostlin nor Nacho are around, so close to deadline, despite them being MY centers of attention. (For that matter, BRO's presence seems lessened as of late.)

mastin said he's town, and i don't think he would lie about something like that

Well, I do lie about it as scum, butyeah. Am town.

BRO's current wagon is zMuffinMan, mastin2, thenewearth, Morph the Cat. At least one of these people is scum in the event that BRO is town.
TNE's wagon is Ghostly Penguin, Mac, pieguyn, BROseidon. It feels a lot more town-filled, but I'm suspicious of Ghostly and BRO.

BRO feels like a mislynch.
TNE doesn't.

Vote : TNE

How is TNE's wagon town-filled when you're suspicious of half the players on it, compared to the BRO wagon where you're not?

I'm actually feeling the opposite. TNE feels like a mislynch; BRO doesn't.

Hey mastin2, you said you expected to scum read me, implying that you would scum read me irrespective of my alignment. Yet in looking back through mutual games of ours, counting at least those where you were solo and where you were hydra'd (not sure about my hydras) we had scum-town, town-scum, and town-town examples. I couldn't find a town-town game where you mentioned in-thread having a scum read on me. I found ones where you'd eliminated me from the 'people you want to lynch' group and/or town read me, but I don't think town-you has ever scum read town-me.

You have clearly called me out as scum correctly as in WWE, and you've deliberately helped mislynched me when you were scum. I'm not saying you read me so perfectly that you couldn't be wrong, but I'm not finding evidence for your start-of-game stance here.

What am I missing?

--PA

That I see posts like this as scumclaims?

[mastin2]

Bit on the run at the moment, so more detailed commentary will follow, buuuuuut...

As far as Ghostlin's read on you, mastin2, it changed from town to scummy some time between 11-6 and 11-8. He didn't say why yet. I'm still wary of you for having worried about backtracking on a read that hadn't been established. I get that I tend to look scummy across the board and Ghostlin has a blatant way of showing he's town, but you worrying about how it would look for you to express an opinion that probably any of the people here who've played with me would support or at least understand is off. Town's reads are supposed to change; it's scum that over-justifies any changes.

--PA

Do I feel you're scum? Probably -not-, although PA's kind of pushing for it because you can't read her worth shit. My 'gut' such as it fucking is is reading you Town, but that doesn't mean I entirely trust it.

VOTE: Ghostly Penguin.

[mastin2]

Gonna read things in a bit, but I did a little thinking on things overnight.

Frankly, I don't think BRO is anything other than scum. I really, really don't. Everyone else, I can see as being town, but dammit, I don't care how TunnelVisiony this sounds, I can't see him as being town. Now that said...who else is there?

I thought about GP. I'm not sure on it. But I do think Ghostlin's town. I also think TNE's town. I'm mainly looking at {thezmon221, Psychlone, Mac} as containing the other two scum, 'cause I really, REALLY think that Varsoon's town (his claim is not as implausible as you may think it to be), pie's basically conftown, I still think that wayne's town, moroph's also town, and while my townread on zMuff continues to waver, he's still overall town to me. TNE's just not feeling like scum to me. Which leaves those four, for three scum slots, and one of them looking like BROseidon.

I know. This doesn't feel right. A lot of Mac's posting looks like town. (Even though a lot more looks like scum.) There's not particularly a lot wrong about thezmon's posting, either, also looking minorly town. (Even though it being scum is not impossible.) Hell, even Psychlone's not too terribly off. Of my townreads, GP's the weakest. But I can't shake this being their town selves right now.

Basically, reworded... (strongest to weakest)
{Pie, Varsoon, morph, wayne} are megatown.
{zMuff, TNE} are both quite town.
GP's sorta-town.
{BRO, thez, Psychlone, Mac} (Psychlone and Mac are interchangeable) all have things which could make them town, but are basically less town than the remainder.

I wish I could flip the switch, right here and now. It sounds like I've got things narrowed down via POE, right? The problem is in my utter lack of confidence in these. Because while I believe them, while this is basically the only thing that I can see...I just don't think it feels right. Like one of my major townreads has to be wrong. Despite how none of them feel wrong. Pie, Varsoon, and morph all in particular feel town, and hell, I'm basically at the point where off of my gut I'd be calling TNE more town than zMuff. All of those are strong. I don't think I'm going to waver on any of them. But that still leaves too much. I don't think nor want wayne to be scum, but no matter how much I try, I can't push myself to see him as that 95% town. No matter how much I try, I keep on thinking that I might have been wrong about zMuffin, despite everything logically saying he's town. And that's ridiculously bad so close to deadline, but it's all I've got.

[mastin2]

Whoops. Forgot something.
VOTE: BROseidon.

[mastin2]

In particular,

can someone direct me to a case on bro? or summarise points? because my gut strongly feels like this is a mislynch.

theres a startling lack of activity considering the deadline looms. mastin and pie with late switches hasnt overly helped :/ plus i think ghostlin's townish for now. would much rather vote tne who has disappeared off the face of the earth.

Things like this make me think Mac's scum with BRO, but I can't bring myself to think that it's true, despite these ties making it plausible.

[mastin2]

[4] thenewearth (Ghostly Penguin, Mac, BROseidon, pieguyn)

I mean...this just...doesn't look like a town-driven wagon at all.

The towniest name there is pie. :/

[mastin2]

can you explain the progression on your read on me

Nope.

I could iso myself and BS a reason, but my read on you is what my read on you is.

[mastin2]

[5] MafiaSSK (zMuffinMan, BROseidon, Psychlone, thezmon221, Morph the Cat)

I also come back to this, and the SSK interactions. I really think that SSK has to have one scum on it. But I'm actually kinda concerned that most of my secondary and tertiary scumreads are on here as well. It doesn't feel like a scum-driven wagon. Yet the only name on here I consider to be town for sure is Morph. :/

It feels like something more scum would be off than on. And the people off the wagon with weird SSK relationships are Mac and GP.
But then again, I seem to recall thez's reaction (despite being on the wagon) was weird. Maybe BRO's as well. It's something I'll need to look back on in a bit.

[mastin2]

Wasn't my wagon only Mac, Pieguy, Wayne, and Morph?

And then there's this. Again, pie and morph are pretty damn town. The variables here are wayne (who I oh SO still want to believe is town, not only off of claim but also play) and Mac. I'm pretty damn certain Varsoon's town, so I'm wondering if this was an all-town wagon. If not, then it could only be Mac.

Yet this is all VC-related stuff. It's not really play-based.

[mastin2]

Hey Children...
Day1, 60 plus pages for a mini game? You guys are insane... let me skim through...
if there is anything major updates, keep me posted

You might want to make this game a priority, AA. We're VERY close to deadline, and your slot's a secondary or tertiary scumread of a lot of players.

By which, I mean, pretty much nobody is pushing you as their primary scumread, but many have you AS a scumread, or if not, in null, or if not, the bottom of their town lists. Near deadline, that's a bad place to be. There's been some talks of a compromise lynch on your slot if memory serves, soyeah. If you want to stop that, you need to read fast.

Important things--pie dayvigged SSK and is town. Varsoon and wayne are claimed PRs and town. morph the cat is also town. (I am also town.) So if you're town, you can use those reads as a townread baseline.

[mastin2]

mastin you're doing it wrong. if you're giving a summary of what happened, you shouldn't be throwing your opinions in there too

A summary doesn't hold much point if it doesn't.

@mastin,
where does your read on morph come from?

Aside from their softclaim and how they've been handling it, the overall vibe from their posting is definitely the town-them I'm used to seeing.

Plus, they've invoked a holy-Mastin tell of "I'm not used to you not townreading me" similar to you in Xenogears.

Spoiler: Nacho

I'm concerned with how you're handling your interactions with me so far today; in Walking Dead and Chain of Command, you ended up interacting with me more than you usually do to the point where it was excessive. Here, you're pretty much ignoring me and putting me in the "not worried about me yet pile" (perfectly okay), but you're clearly suspicious of us to some extent and not trying to push it at all.

I haven't been pushing you

because you haven't been around for me to push!

I've been referencing you often, I've been mentioning you, I've been doing some minor pushing of you, including referencing how you're not around (itself a push), yet that last part is important; you not being around means that I can't push you. I can't get anything effective out of suddenly voting your slot, now, can I? Which is, again, precisely one of the reasons I'm so concerned, in that you haven't been around for me TO push. I can't get a good read on you one way or the other if you're not around to interact with me. Hell, the only reason you're not scum is because I recognize that you're bogged down in life (thus, it's PROBABLY alignment-null), and that I'm getting similar vibes to Xenogears, in that my suspicion on you and your handling of it looks identical. (BUT IT IS STILL SUSPICION ALL THE SAME!)

I expect you to seek some sort of reassurance in the early game if you're paranoia or at least get thoughts down on the table about things that I'm doing in case you die early.

Well, I was going to, but basically, assuming two mislynches, I've got a free ride to mylo, maybe even lylo. The scum aren't going to nightkill me with so many power role claims floating around. If they DID, it'd tell you that I was more of a threat to them than the power roles themselves, which is reasoning enough to iso me.

But I felt like most of his early game play was too focused on image maintenance as opposed to him scumhunting and looking town as a result of it; him going "whoops, I'm obvtown already" in his #14 felt good at first because it was very confident and a hard thing to sell as scum that early in the game with a straight face. His analysis at that point was seriously lacking, though, and I don't see what sort of things mastin did at that point to make him call himself obvtown; hence niggles. Him correcting me on his scum meta? Good at first because it's a ballsy thing to do, right? But why would he do it as town? If he's scumreading me for finding an excuse to townread him, I'd expect him to pursue that line/bring it up although I can see why he would focus on semantics.

My play was focused on me because that's the only thing I could really think of to do. I was having trouble getting into the game. Hell, I still am, despite being so close to deadline. I've been doing as much analysis as I can cram in, but often-times, it's lacking that final push, that strength, that I really need. Also, shame on you. I was obvtown even back then, and the obvtowniness has only gotten stronger. I corrected you on my scum meta because I felt like it.

This is a nice protown quote and all, but he doesn't actually end up exploring any of them for a very, very long time and soon loses pretty much all of his steam on the BROlynch he was so excited about earlier but doesn't explain why.

Because it's fairly self-evident that my reads have been so much in-flux over the course of the day as to be a complete and total, utter, entire mess?

I will give credit where credit is due. BRO's right, Nacho. I don't like your trajectory on me. At all. That said, I'm not suddenly buddy-buddy with BRO. Quite the opposite, in fact.

The towniest name in there is the conf-town.

Wait...

How the fuck does that support your point?

Because it accentuates the negative. There's only one player. ONE. DAMN. PLAYER. On that wagon. That looks good. All the rest. The entirety of them. Look bad.

Also you're still scum.

Yep. This is a scum-BRO. No attempt to reach out to me, no attempt to reason with me, no attempt to point out how we work on similar wavelengths, no attempt to do what he did in Xenogears and try and work with me, despite the fact that pretty much everyone here knows that I'm town by now. He's in tunneling mode, and I'll be blunt, this screams of being scum-trapped with no visible outs.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned that I'm pretty sure I caught what your crumb was, and that the only reason I'm not conf-towning you is because I know Cabd is a gambit-ey player? Also, I know your reads can take a life of their own, but I've had less time than I'd have liked recently to convince you that I'm town.

This reeks of being bullshit, too. It's an excuse to not have them as town.

Also I like how we let the Thez slot lurk out to replacement, and nobody bothers to pressure AA9 from the onset, despite her being impossible to read without pressure.

Good shit bros.

AA moves into scum-designated mislynch-bait territory!

[mastin2]

VOTE: BROseidon.

Okay. You wanted me to be active? I'm active now. I'm throwing down the gauntlet, and flipping the switch.

Because I? I am ticked. off. That you bastards actually lynched Wayne. He was town, painfully obviously so, and I refuse.

I ABSOLUTELY

REFUSE

. To believe that wagon had less than two scum on it. If not all three!

[3] thenewearth (Ghostly Penguin, Mac, BROseidon)
[2] waynegg (pieguyn, Morph the Cat)
[2] Not Voting (ArcAngel9, waynegg)

The TNE wagon is terribleness incarnate, so all three here could be scum.

[7] waynegg (pieguyn, Morph the Cat, Ghostly Penguin, thenewearth, BROseidon, Varsoon, Psychlone)

This is even worse. The entirety of the BROseidon wagon falls apart after what is a god-awful obvious scumclaim from BROseidon that was obviously survivalistic and entirely scum-oriented.

And this BS forms to replace it.

AA is town. I am sure of it.

Pie I am hoping is town. (Yes, only hoping. I do have doubts, but I'm calling pie town because screw it, I am.) Same for morph. zMuffinMan, I'm calling town simply because he seems to be one of the only people here who had a BRAIN during deadline, and it'd just be too depressing if he was scum-with-a-brain in an idiotic town.

So I'm going to put it out here.

BROseidon is scum. GP is scum, present on both these terrible BROseidon counterwagons. The third is more variable. I'm not sure if it's Mac or Psychlone, even though I lean towards Psychlone. But those four? {BROseidon, Ghostly Penguin, Psychlone, Mac}? Have our scumteam in it.

So sheep me.

[mastin2]

im just gonna go right on and ignore arcangel for the rest of this game.

Stuff like this, Mac? Is one reason I think you could be scum. Because this isn't pro-town. At all. Even remotely so. AA9 is not a player you want to ignore. Period. She's a competent town player, and surprisingly-effective scum player, both assuming she has her head in the game. Which...she is doing.

I'm a 1-shot flavor cop.
I use my 1-shot on you because I'm not going to be able to read you w/o it.

Why, of all people, AA? Why not someone like me? Or zMuff? Or Psychlone? Or Mac? Or, hell, even TNE? Why AA9?

There's zero town motivation for her to be your first target, but plenty of scum motivation present.

@Mac:

I could see TNE just derping around the whole night. seems like something he'd do as town or scum. so I'm not sure on him atm, especially if BRO flips scum

This is something I didn't want to bring up. I was kinda waiting to see what TNE would say, if TNE would say anything at all. (I sorta picked up the gut vibe from Mac's description that TNE is flaking.) But it's what I was thinking as well, though my opinion of it is that if true, TNE is town.

Also. Mac was a town role with a neighborize ability last game. He'd be the LAST person I'd think would call TNE scum for it in this game, another reason I'm strongly considering Mac for being scum.

now can we be sure that BRO isn't just pulling a gambit to score a mislynch, since he was more than likely going to get lynched anyway?

Case-'n'-point: Antihero Reboot Mafia, where AngryPidgeon used this exact same tactic to get Thor mislynched and sow the seeds of discord in the town. Before BROseidon goes "But I'm not AP!", a reminder that he himself has admitted that AP and he have become eerily similar thanks to the AFB hydra between the two, and AP could have even cited this move somewhere in their dialogs with one another.

like I don't see how a flavor cop is a town role in this setup. we already had a watcher, and there was a big fkin warning saying not to flavor claim. > <

Precisely. BRO is not scum for the claim, but the claim indicates he is scum. BRO is not scum for his play, but his play indicates he is scum. BRO is not scum for the handling of the claim and the interactions yesterday and the wagons formed to counter his, but they indicate he is scum. When combined together, you get one simple fact.

BROseidon. is. scum.

[mastin2]

And for those of you who're too lazy to track down the game, read AP's posting from here-onward, where he makes the claim.

Same damn thing here. Except that BROseidon is almost certainly not lying about his role. Just his results. Because there's another situation this is similar to. With a SIMILAR SCUM-ORIENTED POWER. The recently-completed Xenogears mafia which featured...yep! You guessed it. A mafia. Rolecop. Yeah, rolecop not quite the same as flavorcop. Yeah, non-consecutive is different from 1-shot. But the basics are the same.

BROseidon. is. confscum.

[mastin2]

Also Mastin you're scum for playing dumb on morph's crumb.

I'm ignoring their crumb. There are roles they can be. I have ideas. But I'm specifically AVOIDING figuring it out, because it's a town claim, and that's all I need to know. They're town. I'm town. So I don't

care

about the specifics of their role.

[mastin2]

Okay. Not quite ignoring. I've acknowledged it, and have it in my mind on occasion. But it's basically a non-factor.

[mastin2]

Rolecop, vanilla cop, same idea. You knew what I meant.

what the fuck does me being a neighbourizer last game have ANYTHING to do with this game, mastin? seriously, you're actively looking for reasons to find me scum and manipulating evidence in your favour.

Quite the opposite, Mac. You've done a ton of towny stuff. You're a scum candidate not because of confbias. Not because of POE. (Well, slightly. ) But because you've also done some deeply, DEEPLY concerning stuff, this among them. (You'll note you're actually going in and out of my scumlist. If I was confbiasing you as you're claiming, you'd never leave it.) It has relevance because as a TOWN neighbor (well, part-neighbor) last game, you'd be the player most likely to assume that it was a TOWN neighbor in this game. You blindly assumed the opposite.

if role x was town last game, is it autotown this time?

No. But it gives a strong inclination at the very least. Scum rolecop-variant, town-neighbor; scum rolecop-variant; town neighbor. It's no assurance. I'll give you that! But it shows a trend. One which your blatant ignorance to is deeply concerning about.

1. BROseidon
2. Ghostly Penguin (Ghostlin + penguin_alien)
3. Mac
6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd)
8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8)
9. thenewearth
10. thezmon221
11. Varsoon
13. zMuffinMan

The relevant players. (SSK we'll know the alignment of soon enough assuming the shot was legit, which it definitely looks like it is. Pie's town, and wayne also is pretty damn town. Consider them my tier-1 town.)

Varsoon looks town, zMuffin looks like town, and I *think* Mac's town as well, though I admittedly don't know him well enough to be sure. (Let's call those my tier-2 townreads.) Which leaves...

1. BROseidon
2. Ghostly Penguin (Ghostlin + penguin_alien)
6. Morph the Cat (fferyllt + Cabd)
8. Psychlone (GuyInFreezer + Nachomamma8)
9. thenewearth
10. thezmon221

...Six names, for 2-3 (depending on SSK) scum slots. Now, that's not to say I don't have reads on these players. I just feel like I need to explore each of them a bit. Be back in a while, to see if I can elaborate on my feelings about each. Because, bluntly, aside from BRO, I can see any of them being town (though Psychlone is probably the most concerning to me, with the other two hydras not far behind) or any of them as scum (though I'm admittedly on a purely-HOPING basis looking mainly at TNE and thez).

After morph crumbed.

Nice consistency there. Wait...

You're so hilariously scum this game it's not even funny anymore. MY VERY NEXT POST WAS REALIZING MORPH SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED IN THERE.

Though that said, morph's probably town. (The real concern is on Psychlone and GP.)

Having morph in my not-confirmed pile was a derp moment, one which I proceeded to immediately fix.

[mastin2]

Sorry, got insanely distracting reading touhou flavor in order to figure out what the evil branch of impurities thing was about. Read up on most of the exchanges, and arc is insanely town. I think post #2029 was my favorite!

Don't think you're exempt from being scum, Nacho. I'm still MASSIVELY suspicious of you, and have you as the name who's scum if Mac isn't.

[mastin2]

mastin, show me where ive said tne is scum because of the neighbourhood, and not because of what happened in the neigbourhood?

One can't exist without the other?

Seriously. I get that TNE not posting content in there could be something that a town-you sees as suspicious. THAT'S WHY YOU'RE NOT CONFIRMED SCUM. But you're ignoring other factors (which both pie and I brought up) that could explain it, are ignoring previous mod meta that would suggest it's town, and basically going in without asking where's the scum motivation in targeting you. (You're not exactly a top pick for a scum neighborizer, really. Scum neighborizers are to milk info from town and to manipulate town players. If they wanted that, they'd target a more high-profile player. Not someone like you. Yes, this isn't a solid tell. But it's a factor I've generally found to be true. From a town-neighborizer, though, I can TOTALLY see why TNE would target you. I'd prefer not explaining until after TNE actually comes in here, for hopefully-obvious reasons, but needless to say, why'd you use your neighborizer ability on someone who wasn't a central focus player? [Don't answer until after TNE comes in here. That's semi-rhetorical.] My point exactly.)

[mastin2]

By the way, recently skimmed the mafia QT.

mastin is pretty sharp this game but i don't think anyone is really going to listen to him, and i think his sharpness comes from not seeing flips, because i think he's going to heavily rely on VCA this game and VCA is going to fuck him over in the long run

This would have been true, given the SSK wagon, had I actually remembered to look back AT the SSK wagon. VCA screwing me over is one reason why I use it conservatively nowadays, and it served me quite well to have forgotten about my VCA this game for exactly that reason. (Still disappointed that I only got 1.5/3 scum, when with just the

slightest

tweak to my reads, I could have gotten all three. I WAS SO CLOSE. But ultimately, too far...)

And fun fact. Over the course of this game...I intentionally softclaimed protective PR, I intentionally softclaimed a confirmation-power-type-role (like mason, IC, friendly neighbor, etc.), I even intentionally softclaimed investigative PR at some points (none of them were actually on Day Two, believe it or not--I was posting with absolute fury on day two because even WITHOUT being a PR, I could fully tell that BRO was full of shit ), so it was obvious that, ultimately, I was none of them.