The Fall of Gondolin Mafia: Game Over (The Tale of Gondolin)

[Elscouta]

Sorry, didn't have Internet access Sunday. Might happen all other Sundays, but hopefully it shouldn't be a big problem.

Espeonage claim and SpyreX attack

I will not vote Espeonage based on the current case. SpyreX (after a couple pages of LOLWHYHEISNTLYNCHEDYET) posted only why a vanilla claim is bad for town. He didn't explain why scum would be more likely to do this than town. Of the top of my head, i can find quite a few reasons for town to claim Vanilla post 3. Some of them are "lol bad play", some of them can even be good play (mod-confirmed mason for example). There is a lot less reasons for scum to do such a claim.

I'm not interested in policy lynching someone because "lol vanilla claim badplay". The confusion that SpyreX instilled between "Vanilla claim are bad" and "Any sane town should policy lynch vanilla claims" make me extremely unhappy. However, among the Espeonage pushers, he is somewhat credible in its vanilla claim crusade (#143 is actually pretty good posting). In the meanwhile, sirdanilot pretends to be pushing Esp because he believes Esp is scum. Given the current data seems to point at Esp dumbtownlolreaction, l'll

Vote: sirdanilot

.

Other comments:

- What the fuck is that Reckoner wagon. Stop pretending we are in RVS and start playing. Thank you very much.
- The code tags are annoying.

[Elscouta]

Els, what is the difference between my Esp want-to-lynch and spyrex' vote park? At worst they are both null.

SpyreX never really said that Espeonage was a (strong) scum read. His "vote park" doesn't read as particularly scummy to me. "Town should lynch its weak elements, and hence Vanilla claimers" (or voteparkers ) is terrible reasoning, but this is the kind of terrible reasoning that is seen both as town and scum.

On the other hand, in your posts, you claim to believe Espeonage is scum. I think you have no reason the believe something like this, and hence that you are riding SpyreX attack for your own purposes. Tell me: Why do you believe Espeonage is scum?

[Elscouta]

And the second is out there already and will remain in minds.

And I'd rather people not know if I'm going to take it back later or not.

The fact that he leaves room open for a claim change is ridiculous; it gives him a pass to fake claim ANYTHING. This is more of a policy-reason to vote Esp than a scum reason, admittedly.

The best way to keep its options open is to not claim anything.

I got endgamed the last time I claimed vanilla day 1.

If this is not scummy, I don't know what is? He's threatening that he won't get lynched regardless of his horrible VT claim. Do you not see the scumminess in that?

Threatening?

How do you

threaten

to not get lynched? At best, what I see is that you are fear mongering the fact that his VT claim will allow him to ride to endgame. No one in this town has even considered the fact that his claim will

protect

him in the slightest. Quite the opposite actually.

You're also assuming I'm making sane and logical choices, something many people in this game will tell you is categorically not the case.

And do you

really think this is not scummy?

Again he's giving himself a pass to do anything he pleases.

In the context it was, it looked like an ok defense of your attack. Do you have reason to believe Esp is a logical player? To be fair, I'm interested in other people opinions. Is there someone in the game that can vouch for the fact that Esp tends to do this kind of "things".

Also if you are on my wagon and happen to be town you should read this game of mine: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=9014 . If you are scum please don't read it and just keep your vote parked on me. Thank you.

I gave up reading this when i noticed it was a 5 years old game. What is so interesting in this game that makes it relevant 5 years after?

---

The two posts that you refer as those that convinced you that Esp was scum (instead of derptown) are #63 and #70 (#39 being meh according to you). But you push Esp as scum in #56, #59 and #60. My vote stays.

---

No one should be voting danilot for reasons that involve scum play and it's baffling that these votes exist, stop it.

Why?

[Elscouta]

I gave up reading this when i noticed it was a 5 years old game. What is so interesting in this game that makes it relevant 5 years after?

I did not play for a couple of years. Interesting aspects of that game include:
- The fact that everyone always thinks I am scum due to my aggressive play style
- The fact that I

do

sometimes lie as town; in this game I fake claimed doc while I was one shot doc and it was for the town win. My point is that lying as town can only be done in exceptional situations.

Let set aside the Esp issue for a moment. (For the record, I don't really buy your explanations but I don't see much more to say regarding it)

But this quoted thing is so bad i want to underline it for everyone.

Did you

really

link to a 5 years old game, and ask people to read it (supposedly because it would bring great insight) because:
1/ It shows you being wagoned because you are aggressive (aka a self-provided meta defence, based on an old game, on something that every single person can claim - i mean, who has never been wagoned because he was aggressive in a game?)
2/ because it shows you can lie as town (... which is totally irrelevant?)

[Elscouta]

Regarding Nat, i'm officially fence-sitting(tm). I have no clue what to make of his posts.

[Elscouta]

Els: Okay, so you read me scum. Okay. We got it. And you're fence sitting on nat. Any other reads?

No one else in the game gave me serious vibes one way or another. Among the weak opinions:
- slight scum on SpyreX, because his attack can be faked.
- slight unhappyness on ABR, because of his mindless /follow votes. Unsure if i read it as scum though.
- slight town on Esp. That's my usual read of early vanilla claims. Partly pending upon confirmation/deny of Natirasha remark "Esp is normally a logical player", but even if it is confirmed, i tend to examine these claims only a bit later in the game, when we can have a better grasp of the situation. I definitely do not want to question whether Esp could be town lying now.
- (very) slight townishness on Tierce, cause i don't know. I will say guts.

[Elscouta]

[scum on sirdanilot, neutral on Nat]
- slight scum on SpyreX, because his attack can be faked.
- slight unhappyness on ABR, because of his mindless /follow votes. Unsure if i read it as scum though.
- slight town on Esp. That's my usual read of early vanilla claims. Partly pending upon confirmation/deny of Natirasha remark "Esp is normally a logical player", but even if it is confirmed, i tend to examine these claims only a bit later in the game, when we can have a better grasp of the situation. I definitely do not want to question whether Esp could be town lying now.
- (very) slight townishness on Tierce, cause i don't know. I will say guts.

You got your reads pretty right, except for your read on me and I think esp.

You don't agree with me regarding you and Esp. You are voting Nat, so I guess you don't agree either with my neutral read on Nat (you vote him). That leaves ABR and SpyreX (and Tierce). Are you agreeing that SpyreX is scummy?

I like PV just as much as I dislike Els. Its truly an amazing yin yang

I love you too <3

--

I would be very very happy if people that are playing "oooh look i'm sooo mysterious and sooo cool" start posting "normally". Don't force me to unvote sirdanilot just because he is one of the very few that are posting useful stuff.

[Elscouta]

@SpyreX: What do you think of chamber #109

[Elscouta]

Elscouta, do you have any completed scum games?

All my completed games on this side are on my wiki page. However, the only "completed scum game" you'll find won't give you much (I replaced in a more or less confscum spot and gave up after a couple pages)

[Elscouta]

I would be welcoming an analysis by any of the "Natirasha experts" about why his play in this game is different from its normal town play.

[Elscouta]

Are you ESL? Or were you like 10 in 2010? Your english in that game is awful ._.

How the fuck is that relevant?

[Elscouta]

No i'm not a native speaker. So?

[Elscouta]

chamber's explanation in #316 feels a bit strange (is there really people that have trouble *writing* in English when scum? and you could have read before/after i claimed scum to see if there was a change of nervousness), but i will still put him in the slight town stack.

Congratulations, Shos, you are now member of the very select Town Club. In order to confirm your membership, please explain why Natirasha is scum.

[Elscouta]

Uh, without ISOing - Nat has been rolefishing in one post mildly(gamestart) and one post heavily(page 3 or so). other than that, her attitude to this game is MUCH unlike her town meta; and her posts have all been shallow as shit.

So I checked some of her town games where she was not hydraing (Touhou UPick and Fire Emblem) and I don't see any significant difference.

Only one-liners, comment about being obvtown, self-voting in RVS, snarky comments, decent amount noise/not-game-related content. What is so different in this game?

Also, I have never seen a scum getting caught by "rolefishing" (basically what PeregrineV said)

[Elscouta]

15. Elscouta - didn't like entry post of hopping onto the for some reason growing Sirdan wagon

What? I am the original sirdan pusher...

--

I still consider sirdan scum, but i like even more Tierce case on JacobSavage.

Vote: JacobSavage

[Elscouta]

I don't feel like doing a full reread, but a quick glance at mod posts show that the only vote that was cast on sirdan before mine was a quick one by reck that was removed afterwards.

Anyways, this Natirasha wagon needs to die or needs to be explained.

- Rolefishing is not and has never been a valid reason to lynch someone.
- If you are pushing him based on a meta reasoning, please explain the meta difference/refute my #331

[Elscouta]

why the hell is nati still alive guys. seriously. ISO her. it sucks donkey balls, that ISO. THREE donkey balls.

MafiaSSK, Esp, JacobSavage and Nat all have beyond terrible ISOs. Of these four, only JacobSavage has said something that is actually scummy (aka more likely to be scum than town) and not just useless, and Nat meta shows that this is her usual posting style.

So a quick roadmap for people that don't know who to vote:

Lynching uselessplayer (could be town or scum) : Vote Esp, Nat or MafiaSSK
Lynching uselessplayer (likely to be scum) : Vote JacobSavage
Lynching an active scum : Vote sirdanilot

[Elscouta]

Els, what did Jacob say that was scummy? I mean, as opposed to just weird, compared to everyone else on that list.

He provided a "list of reads" and when asked about why he thought chamber was town, refered to a post after the list was made (implying the list was made up and that he actually didn't think about reasoning). When pressed to explain, he said that the original reason of the read was "posts looked genuine", which doesn't convince me either: in a game that had already picked up a decent amount of steam, if he only has two reads, I expect these to be based on factual/loudly spoken reasonings, not based on a very weak reason, on someone that has never been really in the light.

And add ABR on my list of "useless (could be town or scum)". For some reason I forgot about him.

[Elscouta]

I didn't actually read Tierce's reasoning. It's similar but Els explains it differently. I think it's more likely they both came to the same conclusion for different reasons? Do you think there's a problem with what he posted, or is this just you trying to look like you have an actual reason for voting me instead of admitting you're wrong?

Uh. I never claimed it was my case, I'm not hiding that i'm sheeping Tierce on this one.

I've seen town do this so often. Scum can do it easier, but its not exclusively a scumtell, its a 'I'm not really paying attention to this game' tell, town can be guilty of that too.

Many scumtells are also done as town. Mafia would be a sad game otherwise That "scum can do it easier" is good enough for me in a day1 wagon (and much better than VT claiming / being useless, which is done indistinctively by town and scum). Also I think you downplay the tell a bit. "Reading someone has town, then giving a reason that could not be the reason for the read in a very short timeframe" is a bit more that "not paying attention to the game".

[Elscouta]

"Reading someone has town, then giving a reason that could not be the reason for the read in a very short timeframe"

Why would it have to be a short time-frame?

Forgetting why you claimed a townread 24 hours ago is a lot more damning that forgetting why you read someone as town one month ago.

My dislike for the Nat wagon is greater than ever. All the meta reasoning regarding him is bullshit, and chamber using a game in which Nat replaced 30 pages in AND was scum really really doesn't make it better.

--

On a sidenote I will not have internet access until Monday.

[Elscouta]

On MafiaSSK and TheIrishPope

As it has been said by many people, post 563 is perfectly fine. Most of the remarks are good, and i don't find surprising at all that a player coming back from vacation with 6 votes on him focuses his reading/catch-up post on the people voting him. TheIrishPope, on the other hand, is starting to really looks horrible. All its ISOs is fluff and snark except the occasionnal vote, often without explanation. I particularly dislike how he went from Nat wagon (seemingly his preferred lynch target) to Esp wagon (seemingly a compromise lynch target) to MafiaSSK (less likely to be lynched than Nat, and with a fairly weak reasoning). I highly doubt he will get lynched today, but if a speedwagon wants to start on him, i'm ready to reserve a seat.

Regarding the related case on Cogito Ergo Sum, i haven't made my mind on it. From what I read, it is mostly a case of "buddying", and I'm quite uncomfortable with this kind of case. It is my opinion that town should defend other players they consider town (and I got lynched quite a few times for this...) but I'm aware that the site meta doesn't like it. It isn't a lynch possibility today anyway.

On Espeonage

He is still as useless, and seems to have basically given up on the game. It is hard to say whether it is scum ploy, or just a vanilla townie "whatever, i'm out of the game". Given his posting style is far from townish, I'm starting to feel "okay" on his lynch, given he will obviously never get NKed, and is not a PR. I still think we can aim for higher, and lynch much more scummy players.

--

Good Wagons (by order of preference):

JacobSavage, TheIrishPope, sirdanilot

Okayish wagons:

Espeonage

Bad wagons:

Natirasha, MafiaSSK

--

I will not be voting Esp today.

Can I sell you the deliciously tasty JacobSavage wagon then? An amazing EIGHT post for the whole game, with basically only one post with content, and yet one very significant scum tell.

[Elscouta]

... or tells me why not

Easy. Because that close to the deadline, we won't get a consensus on him, and because there is already many scum in the open. Also, nothing he said particularly pinged my radar.

At this stage, if you aren't voting Esp, JS or TIP, you are working against the town. That's the only three lynches that have a decent chance of getting through.

[Elscouta]

I agree (...) not necessarily on TIP. his posts might be short one liners and fluff, but they are a ton, and together they provide content and not that much noise. even with posts like "hahahahahahahah" - it's basically a post saying 'I disagree'. I sorta agree with him on some things, and I don't think he's a scumlynch for the while.

Guys, repeat the case on me, because I'm not seeing it

My dislike of TIP comes from two things:
- His voting. First he is Nat (a terrible wagon, but one that he considers his top scum suspect), then he moves towards Esp (visibly a compromise wagon). But when Esp wagon is getting really close to completion, he jumps off for MafiaSSK based on super-weak reasoning. My thoughts are, why would he, as town, suddenly stops compromising on Esp when the wagon is about to go through, in order to move to an obviously never-going-to-be-lynched target?
- His style. I may have been wrong to call his posts "fluff". Indeed, he states clearly his reads. However, there is no reasoning about his votes and reads, just snark and handwaving. That wouldn't be a large concern to me if his votes were actually good, but they have been faaaar from it (see previous point).

[Elscouta]

Faking willingness to comprise then jump off the wagon for bad reasoning on an irrelevant target is very relevant to alignement.

[Elscouta]

comprise -> compromise

[Elscouta]

when did I fake willingness to compromise?

Your vote on Espeonage, then quickly moving it on MafiaSSK

and what's the difference between me and other people starting other wagons?

The snarkiness and the lack of reasoning about your moves / votes

[Elscouta]

yeah explain how that's fake willingness to compromise and the point you still haven't answered, why the fuck does it make you think I'm scum

If you were willing to comprise, you wouldn't start a bullshit counterwagon to Esp. Given you provide little reasoning for your reads, the only thing we have is your voting pattern, and this voting pattern is horrible : 2 bad wagon, and a quick jump off from the only half decent wagon you participated to.

easy to generalize without proof huh?

I am sorry that I am not able to have a definite proof that the fingerprints found near Hùrin are yours. I am sure the legal team will be able to fix this once we take your hands off your dead body though. Ooooh look i can post snarky comments too.

[Elscouta]

Els how is my voting pattern?

A bit better than Irish (basically the same targets, but you aren't really guilty of the Esp quick jump off). Definitely in the "very bad" category.

Fortunately for you, the odds that I get you lynched today are basically null, and some of your posts have slightly reduced my scumread on you.

[Elscouta]

and you still fail to explain how I must be scum because of it, man I'm so good at this game

Explain me why Natirasha

must

be scum.
Explain me why Espeonage

must

be scum.
Explain me why MafiaSSK

must

be scum.

Your behaviour is scummy enough to justify you being lynched. There is no burden of proof on us.

[Elscouta]

Els: Okay. Can you then understand why tip is not my top scumread?

Why are you asking that? I haven't asked you to vote TIP, I have never voiced any problem with the fact that tip is not your top scumread (he isn't even my top scumread...) and it is definitely not in my reasons for suspecting you.

I'm really puzzled by the amount of blatant buddying that you are doing to me.

[Elscouta]

Actually, the way you try to dismiss by saying that anything that is not "proof" shouldn't be considered adds a whole new layer to your scuminess.

Vote: TheIrishPope

[Elscouta]

Actually, the way you try to dismiss [the case] by saying that anything that is not "proof" shouldn't be considered adds a whole new layer to your scuminess.

Vote: TheIrishPope

[Elscouta]

Unvote, vote CES

Yeah, let's do this!
VOTE: CES

VOTE: CES

ABR TIME TO SWITCH BACK

(ftr I am willing to compromise and lynch tip but it's really just that, a compromise)

Whatevs, SSK, if you're scum and are making me kill a good townie I hate you. AND I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.

VOTE: CES

Wat... There isn't a single explanation about why CES is scum there. None. Where is this wagon coming from?

[Elscouta]

Hey guys the following plan crossed my mind: What if we have JS claim who he protects? Then there's probably someone who can out him as scum if he lies about it (for example because he's SCUM and not a body guard).

Discuss.

Are you really proposing that we direct a

protective

role on the off-chance that a/ we have a tracker b/ JS is scum without a targeting ability?

That's ...

CES tried to mislead the town into a mafiassk lynch because he lied that mafiassk was active lurking, whilst he was V/LA.

If that isnt scum I don't know what is.

Hmm... Did you know that MafiaSSK was V/LA? If you did, why didn't you contradict CES at that point? I definitely did not know that MafiaSSK was V/LA.

Is this the reason that the other people are on CES?

[Elscouta]

Nat and Desp, do you have a townread on TIP. If you do, why? If you don't, why do you prefer CES wagon to TIP wagon?

[Elscouta]

This case on Aegor is pretty good.

Chamber, Your vote is still on Tierce. Move it for fuck sake..

[Elscouta]

I don't think so.

[Elscouta]

Why exactly would I do that?

Most of the town has posted since you placed this vote. It is clear nobody will follow you on her.

'This case' referring to what?

Shos post.

[Elscouta]

I just need to try harder. I have 12 hours to force you 1 by 1.

Stop messing around. You perfectly know you won't be able to. And you aren't even really trying. (This is not a request that you start spamposting TIERCE IS SCUM LYNCH HER)

What makes it a good case now? Do you typically call single posts cases?

It's a good analysis of a post (actually two posts), that smell indeed scummy. It is as much a case, as say, JacobSavage "memory lapse" earlier in the day. I don't expect a day 1 case to be better than a couple post that show a non-town mindset.

[Elscouta]

What makes it a good case

now

?

The fact that JacobSavage wagon is dead, TIP wagon is stalling and that the next wagon (CES) is an horrrrrrrrrrrible one. To a lesser extent, that sho restated it with a nice picture.

And yes, i'm not able to track / analyze every single post of the thread, so I tend to focus only on people when something attracts my attention.

[Elscouta]

Vote: Aegor

Let's see how it goes. I will log out in 2 hours, so you'll have to convince me that my vote is better placed there than on TIP before that.

[Elscouta]

I'm off for the day.

YOU BETTER LYNCH SOMEONE GUYS OR I'LL BE A VERY SAD PUPPY.

[Elscouta]

I am surprised I am the only one that doesn't buy Maeglin town. Yes, he flipped in green, but "strange innocence", "Godfather", "house of the mole", "mole uncovered", "i'm a ninja miller cop-vig", "Maeglin" (aka the guy that brought the Fall of Gondolin but that everyone was convinced of his innocence) points to me that something very fishy was going on. Based on flavor, i would definitely see some mix of Recruitable Townie / Traitor / Death Godfather there (note how much Aegor claimed ability makes sense on a Traitor Godfather if you replace "direct town to kill" by "direct mafia to kill"). Unfortunately, without any way to determine whether he had knowledge of mafia names, or whether mafia has knowledge of him, i don't see much to be gained by trying to follow this theory and analyzing the wagon.

"you didn't know green was the town color" is absolute bullshit. I mean, seriously? If the town color was purple with stripes of yellow, i would have understood, but there...

---

At least one major wagon yesterday was on scum.

That ebb and flow and the inability for anything to really push through until the deadline looming power dive means ~something~ was stopping the others from going through.

Given the number of wagons that occured yesterday, we would be a pretty terrible and unlucky town if that was not the case, If we are analyzing purely the ebb and flow and assume that Aegor was either town or thought by the mafia to be town, the way the wagon suddenly snowballed while there was so much resistance on Tierce and TIP at the same time could mean that one of these two are scum.

---

Regarding the NKill of chamber, it makes a good amount of sense. Nobody seemed to suspect him of being scum, and he was trying to get stuff done. <wifom>It could also be seen as Tierce removing an attacker, or scum wanting to incriminate Tierce</wifom>. I'm not seeing much more there. And I agree JacobSavage needs to tell us his target.

---

I kinda still want to lynch TIP actually, I still have no idea why his wagon died instead of getting run over by Jacob escapees, and he's clearly here and contributing as much as he was yesterday.. This feels really lethargic actually, like did everyone forget what they wanted to do yesterday besides jump onto the pain train?

Agreed.

Vote: TheIrishPope

. For d1 reasons and for wagon dynamics of end of day.

[Elscouta]

I really don't see why Tip would be scum. It all just looks like play style to me.

Hrmf. You lured me into a meta analysis, and I somewhat agree (on a side note, your wiki is quite out of date, TIP). And now i'm not even sure if I want to lynch you anymore because it would be so good for sirscumilot to let another TIP wagon develop.

Which means I'm a sad panda. I don't feel like lynching Tierce just because she was a counterwagon to someone I'm not even sure was town. Jacob has still a bit of time on its "doctor gets out of lynch free card", Natirasha might as well be a TIP clone, Esp lynch is meh, and I still don't have any clue about why people are suspecting CES.

The only good thing is that Shadoweh is town. That's nice to know.

Unvote

--

On a reread sho's #951 tinged all kind of bells :
- how is a claimed ninja miller cop-vig a "bad town" role. If he was really that, we lost one of the most powerful role that has been seen on MS.net for a long time. If he was lying, how do you know he was a bad role? or that he was town?
- the "surprised by the NK" and the "so what know? :/" feels bad.

@sho's : What is the case on ActionDan?

[Elscouta]

I really don't see why Tip would be scum. It all just looks like play style to me.

Hrmf. You lured me into a meta analysis, and I somewhat agree (on a side note, your wiki is quite out of date, TIP). And now i'm not even sure if I want to lynch you anymore because it would be so good for sirscumilot to let another TIP wagon develop.

That's fucking stupid. Okay, assume I am scum and TIP is town. Then why did I not jump on the TIP wagon to get it lynched, scum scum scum DIE?
Okay assume we are both scum. OH WAIT that is a fucking stupid unsubstantiated assumption. But go ahead and look at me-tip scum pair if you so please.

You probably misread my post.

--

Please note: Unlike

The Children of Húrin Mafia

the major intent of this game is not Bastardry. This game will not feature Cults, Survivors, mid-game alignment changes, direct lies to players, or Moderator meddling in role/alignment assignment. Other subversive elements may exist. There is no guarantee against other elements that may be considered Bastard.

I'm extremely surprised Plum decided to quote this. But posted with this timing, it really sounds like "There is no Death Godfather in this game, please don't discuss that". Anyways, it most likely does no good to discuss what exactly Aegor was.

--

A wagon on a lurker (in order of preference: ABR -> ActionDan -> PV) is tempting.

[Elscouta]

godfather = ninja miller cop-vig (according to Aegor)

Are you reading the thread?

[Elscouta]

Vote: ABR

Enough is enough.

[Elscouta]

Then replace out.

You haven't done anything in this game. Don't expect me to sum up for you 42 pages that you did not bother to read.

[Elscouta]

Not buying it.

If you aren't interested enough in the game to investigate the last two pages in order to understand the flip, there is no way you'd need the flip in order to make a much more complicated wagon analysis.

Either you are scum faking non-interest, or you are town looking for a cheap excuse to do nothing.

[Elscouta]

Looks like you actually are reading my posts. Recruitable traitor was only mentionned once, in a large post. On the other hand, the fact that Plum basically confirmed that Aegor was town and not a death godfather/whatever was in #1011, #1015 and #1022

And I've yet to know what a death godfather is.

Bullshit. A death godfather is a scum that flips town on death. If you did not take this into account, all your talk about "how can I scumhunt if I don't know Aegor alignment" is crap.

[Elscouta]

Thank you, Tierce. I was not motivated to read the game until you posted that.

I'm impressed by the moral authority Tierce has on you.

[Elscouta]

Because she actually tries to fill in the gaps for me. You could learn a thing or two from Tierce.

I see. So you have been posting only one-liners for 42 pages, and not bothering reading anyone, because nobody said to you "hey be a nice boy and go read Aegor's claim"? And now you are suddenly totally interested in the game?

Are you expecting us to buy that?

[Elscouta]

I'm not switching to sirdanilot (yet). My suspicions of him have progressively lessened, and the company on the wagon is horrible. Among others, Desperado's #1063 was particularly scummy.

shos, you have a reserved spot on the ABR wagon. Feel free to take it when you want. I can keep it warm for you if you want to push sirdanilot wagon in the meanwhile.

[Elscouta]

Weren't you suspecting CES as scum, sirdan?

[Elscouta]

Esl: Yes I am still all for a CES wagon

I'm asking specifically in regard to the fact that CES is the first voter on Desp, you are the second, and of this:

So you think it's a good idea to hop onto a wagon where he is the first voter? Seems legit..........

[Elscouta]

godfather = ninja miller cop-vig (according to Aegor)

Are you reading the thread?

Please direct quote for me.

I am a decent lynch because I am Maeglin. Unsurprisingly, I am a Miller. I also have another ability that combines two PRs in a creative and productive way. Given the Miller status, I am happy to be policy-lynched to avoid problems later.

I am a town-aligned Godfather (again, unsurprising, given Maeglin). My ability lets me choose someone (1) who will kill someone else (2) of my choice. The kill will go through if (1) is town. If (1) is maf, the kill will not succeed. It is thus a combination cop-vig ability.

The cop part is due to the fact that if the second target dies, the first person is cleared as town, and if it doesn't, it is most likely beceause the first person is scum.
The ninja part was because people supposed that the kill could not be tracked to him (but would be to the one that is sent to perform the kill).

--

* I disagree with Majiffy town-list, but I don't find anything particularly incriminating towards him.
* #1150 is very true. There is no reason to get the bodyguard specifics.
* Shadoweh is most likely town, and there is definitely no reason to discuss for pages the flip, especially now that the alignement issue is cleared (mod confirmed Aegor was town, no Death Godfather shenanigans).
* I am GREATLY disappointed by everyone jumping off the ABR wagon. Geez, do you really buy his "now that Tierce pat me on the back, i will suddenly get interested in the game"?
* Desperado and sirdanilot wagons are fine. I will probably join one of these if there is nobody for ABR.

[Elscouta]

Unsure if I already wrote this, but i have no internet access at home, which means that i'm not able to play during weekends. Currently digesting the last 5 pages.

[Elscouta]

But, ABR is running at 100% below minimal.

Does he do that often as scum? We just finished a perfect scum win together and he was significantly more interested in the game than he appears to be right now.

His wiki shows that he prefers to be pro-town. Also, the reason I am (we are?) voting ABR is because his lack of interest seems faked (particularly the interaction with Tierce).

Majiffy's correlation of strong players:Townreads is terrible and would lynch too.

There is barely a correlation between Majiffy's townreads and influential players. I'm not sure why we would care about supposedly "strong" players, but I definitely wouldn't put half of Majiffy townreads in this category.

--

The PV bandwagon is bad. He will most likely not get lynched, and everything that he has (not) done, ABR has (not) done it in a more scummy way.
It is both a useless wagon because calling it a pressure wagon at half point makes it unlikely to result into anything and possibly a scum-driven wagon to distract from ABR.

--

sirdanilot list is terrible. It is a mix of "everyone that suspects me is working against the town" / "let's call 66% of the town useless for the Nth time just to up my postcount" / "people that don't suspect me are cool and are making the town core".

--

Desperado - 4 - Cogito Ergo Sum, sirdanilot, Shadoweh, Albert B. Rampage
PeregrineV - 5 - shos, Majiffy, Shadoweh, sirdanilot, Albert B. Rampage

Shadoweh, you need to stop following sirscumalot and Albert Scum Rampage, or you will get lynched with them.

[Elscouta]

Els will you be a doll and be like Action-I-Hop-Onto-Every-Wagon-Dan and hop onto the Spyrex wagon please thanks.

Sigh. It seems to be another playstyle-based wagon, which means that I would need to do a meta analysis on him. Add to that the fact that it was launched as a counterwagon to wagons I like (and by people far from my townlist) means I will most likely not be on board.

Wagons I would support currently : ABR, Desp, sirdan

[Elscouta]

There is barely a correlation between Majiffy's townreads and influential players. I'm not sure why we would care about supposedly "strong" players, but I definitely wouldn't put half of Majiffy townreads in this category.

There aren't enough strong players in the game for that. Given what Majiffy had to work with, the group {Tierce, SpyreX, me} all seems a bit higher up than I'd expect and those are exactly the three biggest names in the game.

Ok, I can understand the reasoning. I checked Majiffy reasoning for these reads, and they look "okayish". Even if i disagree with the tell, Tierce probably gets town points for pointing out a very non-obvious scumtell though.

[Elscouta]

Erm. I'm sure I had a reason. But that's actually a good question.

>.>

[Elscouta]

Erm. I'm sure I had a reason. But that's actually a good question.

>.>

Ah found it. It was originally a dislike of #1063 along with an unwillingness of pushing a viable wagon on d1 deadline (#936).

But um on a reread, i get severe town vibes for him. Scrap me from the supporters on his wagon.

--

1. Another playstyle based wagon. As if ABR, desp and me aren't playstyle based wagons. Hahahahaha.
2. Oh gee you would have to do a META ANALYSIS? Oooooh my. That's SUCH a hug sacrifice to make. Poor baby.
3. You like wagons on me and desp? ABR is the only remotely likeable wagon out of the three you mention.
4. Post 1276 "Erm. I'm sure I had a reason. But that's actually a good question. " Yeaaaah very strong scumread you have there on Desp. Veeeeeeery genuine

1. ABR isn't playstyle. It's the interaction with Tierce. Cf above for Desp. You are definitely not playstyle. Want me to sum up the case once more on you?
2. Yes, that means i would have to spend 1h+ reading old games of his to determine if he plays like in other games. Yes, that's a large commitement to make when you have no internet at home. From someone that managed to request someone else to read a complete for a dumb "see i get lynched as town" argument, i guess this is to be expected, but yeah, my time doesn't belong to you.
3. What? Didn't you vote Desp? So you don't like Desp wagon finally?

I want you to answer to this, if nothing else.

4. See above.

[Elscouta]

No Desp is no top scumread anymore no. I am llowed to do this flip because you did it too. If you now call me out for this then you're nothing but a hypocrite

ohmygawd. Obviously it is bad to retract a read, and i'm fine with people being perplexed by my change of mind on Desp (which is basically due to a "i found a post by Desp to be scummy -> people start voting for Desp -> i don't bother doing an iso of Desp and just call the wagon good -> shos ask why people are lynching Desp -> i read the iso and notice that the reason i had was actually pretty weak). And in your case, all your behaviour regarding Desp stinks. First you follow CES (despite thinking he is scum) onto Desp, and then you call the wagon awful without saying anywhere that you changed your mind about it and why. "i'm allowed to change my mind because you did too, and you are not allowed to attack me for that" is probably the worst reason I have ever heard for justifying a change of mind.

The way that your relation towards me moved from "trying to buddy/put me on your side" day 1 into "calling me useless/etc" day 2 doesn't help your case. I can very well see scum trying the friend appoarch, then going into mud throwing when you see it didn't work.

Vote: Sirdanilot

You dont'need to spend an hour to read old Spyrex games. That's ridiculous. Just go look up some of his old games and skim them. IT doesn't take an hour.

Skimming is useless for meta. It just gives a false impression of "having done something". The only thing you can get quickly is active / non-active and possibly insulting-agressive / friendly.

the rest of your post makes me alittle uneasy about how you take back your words, but I already had a strong enough townread on you so I'm letting that go. Are you willing to lynch sirdan as well?

Especially since his last post, yes.

[Elscouta]

MafiaSSK - no read / nothing particularly stroke out one way or another, but i didn't look particularly in this direction
Shadoweh - medium town read. Originally strong town read due to the general tone of her posts. Some doubt now due to Majiffy case (that i didn't digest fully, but that makes kinda sense) and the fact that she seems to hang out with bad people / on bad wagons
TIP - slight scum read. Mostly i find him useless and very condescending. Useless is neutral read, but condescending / discrediting cases is something a bit more scummy in my book
sho - very strong town read. Common suspicions, some posts that sounded very townie (most recent being #1275).

[Elscouta]

I'll have absolutely no problem switching back to ABR if there isn't enough interest in sirdanilot.

But his recent OMGUSy posting didn't help his situation.

P.S. Elscouta voting sirdan is pretty much a confession. That guy should get vigged.

Hmm? And why vigged instead of lynched?

[Elscouta]

So on three roles claimed/flipped, we already have : one bodyguard, one half-cop, one full cop+vig.

Either we are super unlucky or Plum designed the game under drugs or there are people lying.

Hmm.

[Elscouta]

This is nkt even close to tierces scum play.

What claims are you talking about? I only remember VT, BG, halfcop?

I'm including Aegor flip.

I can live with a CES lynxh.

Any specific reason?

--

I'm probably against lynching ABR today and sort out the Jacob/ABR issue tomorrow.

[Elscouta]

Won't be there until deadline. I'm happy regarding where my vote is.

I don't think it is a good idea to lynch a claimed cop just before a night he can get a result (obviously, this also makes it a very convenient claim with the "Even Night" modifier, but heh), so it's probably a bad idea to lynch ABR.

I'm not sure I can read Tierce correctly, but she still looks town to me, and with the people after her, I discourage her lynch.

--

JS has to Body guard ABR and we get a cop result

Sure cool, this won't help the scum at all.

Shos posted this, not me. Pay more attention scummyboy

The quote of Jacob is 100% legit, and can not be seen as misrepresenting you in the slightest. There is even a post link to 1362. Even if you repeated something posted by sho, you clearly endorsed the idea.

[Elscouta]

I don't understand why Natirasha, then Majiffy didn't breadcrumb anything regarding their n1 result.

There is way too many powerroles. There is scum in ABR or Jacob, possibly both.

The crumb on Shadoweh is possible, but i'm a bit unconvinced. Weak Docs tend to try to clear people, not to suicide on their prime scum suspects.

[Elscouta]

Shadoweh can probably wait until ABR claims his result before claiming herself, but given she already claimed some kind of untargetability, she probably will have to claim fully if ABR doesn't have something tasty,

[Elscouta]

Can we wait for sho to elaborate his softclaim instead of quicklynching Shadoweh?

Case on shadoweh is??

You can't be serious... Majiffy breadcrumbed he would target Shadoweh yesterday, and he showed dead this morning, as a weak doc, with a death flavor that isn't the mafia kill.

[Elscouta]

so why did you place your vote on Tierce? dice roll?

[Elscouta]

given the amount of town power, i'd say 5.

i'm placing a shadow vote on shadoweh (no pun intended), but i don't know the count so i don't want to hammer by mistake.

[Elscouta]

time to claim shadoweh

[Elscouta]

duh.

[Elscouta]

WOOOOOOOOSH

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage


Weak Doctor + Cop/Vig + Half Cop. Yeah right.


Question. Was Majiffy killed, or did he suicide? First post suggests the latter.

The death flavors are different, so it implies different things killed them.

##Vote: JacobSavage

If we're going to point out the role that doesn't make sense, a Bodyguard and a Weak Doctor don't make sense in the same game. Also the kill is weird enough to suggest they're just trying to make him look like he should still be alive.

stop talking lol xD
I'll be posting for realz in the evening cuz I'm stupidly fat after eating at a family ceremony; and now I'm going to play basketball(gonna puke all over)..so after that.

Meanwhile, people should be voting Tierce; not ABR and definitely not shadoweh.
I'll explain later.

ABR: cop report, plox; I bet you've been blocked?

Tierce: show me those majiffy crumbs please?

I'll search for them later myself, but if you already have, please do tell

Well I take back my tierce scum decision. for the while.

ABR is confirmed town.
the Majiffy-targets-shadoweh crumb is enormous, and I'm definitely biting. it said 'THEY are quicklynching you' - not 'WE'; as in, he knew he's gonna die and we'll find it.

VOTE: Shadoweh.
After this one, I think CES is a very good scumdidate. The willingness to hit ABR after he said he was blocked(which I believe strongly) sounds to me like CES is scum, knew he was getting blocked, or jailkept, and tries to make town lynch him over that. it is also a wise decision - why kill someone when there's a wifom on him, and he is only even-night, so you can just block him whenever he manages to shoot?

so Shadoweh and then CES.

This needs to be explained. This is horrrrrrrrrrribly scummy, and couldn't be closer to "uh i was planning to defend my buddy by some claim, but I let a bit of time pass, and now i think that it was a bad idea. Let's forget about what I said, i'll bus properly". This whole jailkeeper thing and the "ABR Is confirmed town" feels horrible too.

Also, Jailkeeper + Weak Doc + Bodyguard?

--

ABR probably also needs to die. The only thing that kept him alive at end of day 2 was a dubious claim, and now he even admitted he lied about it.

[Elscouta]

Also, i'm pretty sure we aren't in 2008 anymore.

[Elscouta]

Vote: ABR

Not buying it. "I vaguely remembered having fakeclaimed something, so instead of checking what exactly what my claim, i just said stuff in the hope that it would fit with what i said before"

[Elscouta]

It is possible that sirdanilot was the n1 target of Nat/Majiffy. Shadoweh flips also helps making him look a bit more townish.

He might not be 100% clear, but he isn't in any way a lynch possibility.

[Elscouta]

Why is Tierce scum, sirdanilot? If it is because she dislike reading your posts, that would make almost everyone scum, you know...

[Elscouta]

It is possible that sirdanilot was the n1 target of Nat/Majiffy. Shadoweh flips also helps making him look a bit more townish.

He might not be 100% clear, but he isn't in any way a lynch possibility.

Seriously, someone help me. I looked through both of their ISOs. Why would Nat, who townread sirdan d1, target him for the weak doctor? And where is his d2 crumb suggesting this? Because I don't see anything. And Majiffy's ISO doesn't give any special consideration to sirdan.

Pretty sure Nat either targeted nobody, or someone he read as town (otherwise he would have breadcrumbed)

Given there is no crumb, we are up there guessing. Majiffy planned to die on n2, we are sure of that. So he either Nat forgot to send a target n1 (possible), or he tried to give us some information about his target. He declined a deadline hammer on sirdan, that means he had a great townread on him.

--

There is nothing scummy in Tierce trying to get you lynched on deadline. But really, really, nothing. Actually, Majiffy behaviour was a lot more scummy and a basis of why people think he actually had an innocent on you.

--

PEdit ActionDan: oh nice.

[Elscouta]

Yes i am now on my computer. Will be for the next 2 hours.

[Elscouta]

"Probability/Mafia Theory/My Ass dictates that there must be a mix of scum and town on every wagon" is the dumbest possible way to do vote analysis.

After the counter-analysis by Tierce, I'm suspecting Natirasha planned to investigate MafiaSSK but forgot to send a target / gave up. This is coherent with him asking for replacement and the lack of any d2 crumb.

[Elscouta]

Yes i am now on my computer. Will be for the next 2 hours.

Which is a good opportunity to vote Esp.

I have seriously considered throwing all my reads out of the window to just following Majiffy scumlist, but I feel there is enough evidence against ABR to keep pursuing this one.

[Elscouta]

Fake claiming cop under lynch pressure, then retracting it after messing it up counts as very severe evidence, yes.

[Elscouta]

Yes i am now on my computer. Will be for the next 2 hours.

Then can you explain why your posts today have been a rehash of stuff that doesn't require analysis, when you've had that opportunity?

Unsure I understand your comment.

I'm basically rehashing content on ABR because i think he is the lynch today, yes. I think i commented on the n1 majiffy affair, because i felt it was important. I commented on some attacks / opinions that i felt were wrong, but I didn't feel it necessary to add "new" analysis (mostly because I have none, and because I'm happy with where my vote is)

[Elscouta]

I would still like you to answer my #1586, shos. And I would like to hear the full reasoning about why you decided to Jailkeep ABR n2.

You have been softclaiming for pages, and used this softclaim to defend/accuse multiple people. If you are a JK, scum are already aware of this.

[Elscouta]

@CES: Hmm. Unsure. We have been saying too many times "oh we will lynch him later, let's give scum time to NK him". If shos has been softclaiming to defend Shadoweh and is now using it to put the nail into ABR coffin, it is best to know now.

I don't see the point for a town JK to softclaim that hard, and then refuse to explain the scummy parts of his behaviour. If shos is not JK, he is probably scum.

[Elscouta]

I wouldn't have JK ABR n2 because it would have defeated all purpose of keeping him and JS alive. The point of letting them alive was to let them die while using their roles.

And even if i will swallow this for now, i will need some explanations of this reasonably soon.

[Elscouta]

ok. buying it. Not sure exactly what i'm buying, but i will buy it.

Unvote

Vote: Espeonage

I have still no reason to think that either CES or Tierce are scum, and there is no post Espeonage made that gave me a remotely town feeling.

[Elscouta]

even if I was a voyeur, how would that confirm JS?

A bodyguard on ABR would be a reasonable confirmation of JS town.

[Elscouta]

Wait there is something fishy there.

sho cannot be a voyeur or this would be totally obvious to him.

But if he is not a voyeur, nothing makes sense.

[Elscouta]

Unvote

I have a feeling the lynch will be between JS and sho (most likely JS)

[Elscouta]

The quoted thing seems to me like JS claimed that he targeted ABR (the "obvious" target, as in the claimed cop)

It would be nice if JS can clarify this, yes.

[Elscouta]

@ABR:

wat no there is no missing kill. what are you talking about?

[Elscouta]

Vote: JacobSavage

Time to die.

I strongly support Tierce question of #1768. Please answer.

[Elscouta]

Oh actually you answered it.

Then there is something fishy: why would scum JK an even cop on n3?

[Elscouta]

Well town would have JK on n3, it is on n2 that town wouldn't have.

[Elscouta]

Even if there was nothing else, JacobSavage needs to die for changing his claim of targets (from "obvious target on n2 - n3" to "ABR then AD").

There is no reason to consider possibilities where JS would have been blocked.

[Elscouta]

Catching up.

[Elscouta]

Time for more reasons why Tierce is scum.

post. On a day where it is ridiculously obvious that Shadoweh is scum, she comes in and tries to get ABR (town) lynched. ABR, who is not scum. Yeaah right. Scrol below though: Shadoweh proceeds to bus JS, then Tierce gets the message and shifts to bussing Shadoweh to get things over with. Bad bad Tierce, you should have discussed in the QT that you would bus Shadoweh from the start.

If you are town and such an amazone-womb-powered Mafia Scum goddess, why didn't you vote Shadoweh from the start, hypothetical town-tierce?

Wat? Tierce voted ABR on one of the first votes of the day, then proceed to dig the incriminating crumb in the next posts of the game, resulting into Shadoweh death.

There is nothing whatsoever scummy there.

--

(I need to reread day 1 to determine whether Tierce is scum or not)

[Elscouta]

I don't understand.

She voted ABR 8 minutes after Majiffy flipped Weak Doc.
She voted Shadoweh 18 minutes after the flip, and revealed the crumb shortly thereafter.

I don't see any reason to doubt that Tierce searched for the crumb in the gap of 10 minutes.

[Elscouta]

We must have been playing a different game. Shadoweh was never a real lynch candidate, and was read as town by many players (including me). ABR on the other hand, just escaped a lynch by a claim that was deemed very dubious.

The only reason Shadoweh was lynched was the crumb.

[Elscouta]

Why is Tierce such an obvious scum that today focus should be on finding her buddy, PV?

[Elscouta]

I reread day 1, and the Tierce push on JacobSavage looks genuine. The triple request of a claim (per PV case) is a slight concern, but definitely not enough to remove the town points for forcing the scum rolecop to claim day 1.
.
However, i'm concerned about something. Sho and me have been reasonably widespread townreads, with a strong town read on each other. We have been "reasonably" active. We are day 5, and neither of us are dead. This does not compute.

So I tried to look a bit at the opinions of the dead people, especially regarding Tierce.
- chamber died n1, and he was really pushing Tierce-scum
- TIP died n2, and he was pushing ABR. He questionned Tierce towards the end of the day, and seemed to have kept the case "for later".
- MafiaSSK died n3. Guess who he was voting towards the end of his life : Tierce.
- Death of ABR is pretty neutral given he was confirmed town, and didn't do anything else than votehop on every single wagon.

So yeah. Three dead people, 3 people suspecting Tierce. Two reasonably high NK targets (shos and me), and one thing in common: never attacked Tierce during the first 3 days.

Vote: Tierce

[Elscouta]

So I tried to look a bit at the opinions of the dead people, especially regarding Tierce.
- chamber died n1, and he was really pushing Tierce-scum
- TIP died n2, and he was pushing ABR. He questionned Tierce towards the end of the day, and seemed to have kept the case "for later".
- MafiaSSK died n3. Guess who he was voting towards the end of his life : Tierce.
- Death of ABR is pretty neutral given he was confirmed town, and didn't do anything else than votehop on every single wagon.

So yeah. Three dead people, 3 people suspecting Tierce. Two reasonably high NK targets (shos and me), and one thing in common: never attacked Tierce during the first 3 days.

Vote: Tierce

That's not my kill pattern. As scum, my priority is Town-looking targets, because they're not lynchable--everyone in a game will likely suspect you at one point or another, so it's pretty stupid to leave a paper trail like that. shos and you would likely have been kill targets for me if I were scum.[/quote]

Can you point to a scum QT where you have argued for this?

Unvote

pending your answer.

[Elscouta]

Is it the usual town meta of PV to stay on the sidelines for 4 days, then suddenly launch a crusade on day 5?

Currently investigating the dead QTs of scum-Tierce.

[Elscouta]

Elscouta, less stalling, more posting and voting. You don't get to do any oh whoops guess it's close to deadline better vote Tierce again nevermind that she's Town because there are no alternatives, ssh shh nobody will notice that I didn't try to make those alternatives happen.


And yet you're incapable of showing how my play here differs from either of those games.
Imagine that.

Dude you refused to quote me somewhere where you argued for this kind of kill style. You spoke about MD, but didn't link anything.

If you force me to do it myself, i'll do it when I want.

[Elscouta]

I promise you a decision for tomorrow 16h, is that good for you?

[Elscouta]

Well too bad. Help me gain time and you'll gain time too.

In the meanwhile, i have an hearthstone arena to finish.

[Elscouta]

Was reading the ActionDan iso and I found this:

Wait shos if you voyeur ed ABR and got protective along with role blocker you probably just confirmed js

ActionDan is 100% town. Get off him.

[Elscouta]

Didn't manage to do a proper analysis of Tierce opinions on NK. However, the CES comment about scum having JKed ABR makes sense, so I will accept it. I never really liked PV case, but one of his last post makes me want to flee this wagon as fast as possible.

Talk me through the HOW this makes ActionDan town.

ActionDan seemed to genuinely believe JS would be confirmed. When JS was still flying off the radar, attracting attention on that point caused JS to be lynched. If ActionDan was trying to bus JS, he would have posted something that looked like he was believing sho would NOT confirm JS, not the opposite.

or does he think

"I'll protect town-Tierce who stupid scum might try to kill and then the next day lynch scum-Shadow."

Don't really see Majiffy as the whole suicide-type. Do you?

This is horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible. Horrible enough that this single thing moved you from a decent position in my town reads to a prime scum read. We lynched Shadoweh almost purely based on the crumb, and you never mentionned once that you doubted the crumb. And now that Shadoweh is dead, you try to bullshit that the crumb was false, the lynch was by chance, and that Majiffy actually protected Tierce. Please.

Vote: PeregrineV

[Elscouta]

You are town. I would not support a wagon on you

Sirdan could be scum. I will definitely support his lynch if necessary.

However I believe there is enough support for a PV lynch, and i think the part i quoted is quite damning.

[Elscouta]

Sirdan isn't getting lynched today. Not on the back of "well maaaybe Majiffy just opted to let it live for shits and giggles"

Sirdan has not been the n1 target of Majiffy, you are the only one still believing this absurdity.

Espeonage has been covered and I am still waiting for someone to use their words to explain why he is town.

On the other hand, we are still waiting for you to explain why he is scum.

[Elscouta]

There's one scenario where it makes sense to opt to not lynch if you're the decider at that point: if you are 100% sure that the person you are lynching is town. At that point, there is no gain from a dead body. Majiffy and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things, but that one I'm fine with rolling with.

So, when the cop hesitates on the lynch, I'm not about to just roll over and go well maaybbeee herrrrfff.

Newsflash:

- Natirasha breadcrumbed MafiaSSK, not sirdan
- This game is fully stoked with arrogant <censored> that believe they are scumhunting gods. Are you

[Elscouta]

Clicked in the middle of the posting:


Newsflash:

- Natirasha breadcrumbed MafiaSSK, not sirdan
- This game is fully stoked with arrogant <censored> that believe they are scumhunting gods. Are you aware that there in this game someone that is voteparking since day 1 just by a matter of principle? So yeah, this kind of behavior is independant of investigations.

[Elscouta]

Esp has reasonable odds to be scum. He is far from being town. But he is just that: a potential compromise wagon.

On the other hand, you have someone that seems to believe Majiffy didn't investigate Shadoweh

but let a full game pass ending with Shadow lynch without even giving this opinion, while everyone was lynching Shadoweh because of the crumb

(except sirdan, but it is because he lives (fakes to live?) in his little dream world where he was sooo sure she was scum).

[Elscouta]

BUT MOOMMM COPS INVESTIGATE POEOPLE AND SAY THEY ARE NULL ALL THE TIME

...

Natirasha claimed she should investigate MafiaSSK. After the night, she said nothing, and shortly replaced out. Any logical person would assume that she missed her night target out of boredom for the game. If you want the crumbs of this intent to investigate, they are in ActionDan iso and are completely clear cut.

[Elscouta]

For reference:

Or should I just say guilty until proven innocent? Quite frankly,

I'm going to figure out SSK's alignment

by the end of tomorrow.

Pls don't kill ssk today.

Is he a lurker? Sure, absolutely. But he's also a lurker I have a certain fondness for and once he gets back from his IRL vacation

I will be able to get his alignment down easily

.

Oh look I found the N1 innocent.

[Elscouta]

Well if Tierce is voting Esp and not PV, there is indeed no chance that PV gets lynched.

Vote: Espeonage

[Elscouta]

Vote: PeregrineV

[Elscouta]

Certainly town:

Sho

Probably town:

Desperado
ActionDan

Null:

SpyreX

Unsure, maybe scum:

Cogito Ergo Sum
Tierce

Probably scum:

PeregrineV

[Elscouta]

why do you perceive town-Desp while others have scum-Desp?

I like his posting, and found his posts genuine, often voicing things that I wanted to voice.

Why is he scum?

[Elscouta]

CES should be town because he is the one who actually got us the first scum lynch iirc, with majiffy's post about shadoweh.

Tierce was the one that found the breadcrumb. But even then, pointing out a reasonably obvious breadcrumb isn't a very strong town tell.

[Elscouta]

And for the record I still harbor suspicion on shos.

Glad i'm not the only one that is having dreams of Godfather Shos, sitting on his confirmed town throne, petting his cat while pulling the strings that make the whole town dance. But let's not second guess ourselves too much. But let's not second guess ourselves so much that we fall into complete paranoia.

Elscouta's posts Today have no actual push after all of his intensity Yesterday.

My strongest town read (and most of the players) are pushing my two moderate town reads. Nobody is following me on PeregrineV. I have been left alive despite receiving almost zero votes for 6 days. I'm not exactly convinced i'm right...

[Elscouta]

I can understand that you'd be surprised that Elscouta is alive, looking at it holistically; I just find it weirder that Elscouta is surprised when by my reckoning, I don't see any nightkill that should prompt that sort of thinking.

I'm not totally surprised. But when scum prefers to kill people like TIP and sirdanilot (the guy whose reads were absolutely opposite to me for the whole game), and nobody seems to agree with me on PV, yeah i don't feel like launching a crusade against him.

how the hell come I'm not seeing more Tierce & SpyreX scum 4 lyfe talk?

We lynched Esp because two people decided to take the town hostage while demanding a policy lynch on day 5. That was utterly stupid, but policy lynches are not particularly scummy.

--

Can I get a precise case about Desp and ActionDan? I really don't understand these pushes, especially Desp because it seems he has been pretty vocal about his reads, and definitely easier to read than SpyreX / CES.

[Elscouta]

I didn't say your reads were hard to figure, i said you were harder to read. Don't even try to say that this whole Espeonage story hasn't totally obfuscated your play.

[Elscouta]

Rog, VT.

If someone must be lynched between Desp and ActionDan, i'd rather it be Desp, because #1740 still reads to me as a major townslip.
But PeregrineV "oh i didn't believe the Majiffy crumb but I didn't say anything while Shadoweh was lynched for it" is still the #1 scum act of the game.

[Elscouta]

So this is a 1v1 Tierce vs PeregrineV?

I don't know. On one side, i tend to give the benefit to the player forcing the 1v1, and it justifies a bit that PV pushed a forced case on Tierce yesterday. On the other hand:
- do you really keep a tracker-guilty under the belt when you have a reasonable chance of getting NK'ed, and when 2 scums are already down?
- 2 Trackers, 1 Weak Doc and 1 Super VigCop of Doom?

Unvote while I ponder.

[Elscouta]

Note: If PV is town, any reasonable game balance would point at 5 scums, ie 3 scum left.

[Elscouta]

Note: If PV is town, any reasonable game balance would point at 5 scums, ie 3 scum left.

Which is a bit unfortunate for me given that PV town + 2 scum left only = me town (given we know scum did JK + NK last night)

[Elscouta]

Note: If PV is town, any reasonable game balance would point at 5 scums, ie 3 scum left.

Corollary: if we lynch PV town today, we probably lose.

[Elscouta]

New proposal: we have no claimed protective roles left and one claimed investigative that is under heavy suspicion. We are at Even's, and we could be at MyLo if three scum are left.

Why not No Lynch?

[Elscouta]

Oh right obviously Tierce will do the NK if Pere is town.

NEVERMIND.

Looks like I'll have to take a decision today.

[Elscouta]

WAIT.

PV is scum.

[Elscouta]

He is scum because it is the second guily that he gets, and he never spoke of the first.

ABR claimed Even Night Cop on day 2 when JacobSavage was a claimed bodyguard.
PV is supposed to have tracked JacobSavage to MafiaSSK day 2, which would be at least a very strange target.
He doesn't speak of it. He doesn't even pretend to be interested in what JacobSavage did, when asking "who did you target, JS" would have been totally fine on day3.
He waits until day 4 when JS is confirmed scum to hop on the bandwagon.

He is scum.

[Elscouta]

@Plum: I unvoted, sorry if the formatting was improper.

Unvote

So this is a 1v1 Tierce vs PeregrineV?

I don't know. On one side, i tend to give the benefit to the player forcing the 1v1, and it justifies a bit that PV pushed a forced case on Tierce yesterday. On the other hand:
- do you really keep a tracker-guilty under the belt when you have a reasonable chance of getting NK'ed, and when 2 scums are already down?
- 2 Trackers, 1 Weak Doc and 1 Super VigCop of Doom?

Unvote while I ponder.

[Elscouta]

Hammering Tierce in one hour

[Elscouta]

Vote: Tierce

I take no responsbility from this, one way or another.

[Elscouta]

Why?

[Elscouta]

So we get an extra lynch?

3 shots to catch all scum. If we rule out PV and shos, it leaves SpyreX, ActionDan, Desp and CES. ActionDan is pseudo-cleared by PV and SpyreX #2351 sounds very good (and basically a digging his own grave if he is scum). So i would be for lynching Desp and CES. The other is pretty much irrelevant.

[Elscouta]

So we get an extra lynch?

3 shots to catch all scum. If we rule out PV and shos, it leaves SpyreX, ActionDan, Desp and CES. ActionDan is pseudo-cleared by PV and SpyreX #2351 sounds very good (and basically a digging his own grave if he is scum). So i would be for lynching Desp and CES. The other is pretty much irrelevant.

s/other/order/

[Elscouta]

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

No he hasn't.

[Elscouta]

Yay! Spend my time trying to lynch townies while looking super townish. Can i get scum mvp?

More seriously, good job other townies.

[Elscouta]

Natirasha crumb was fine. It was seen without trouble. However, Majiffy listing MafiaSSK as null was horrible, as it convinced people that the crumb was wrong or that Natirasha flaked during the night.