Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[Nachomamma8]

ITALIAN ICE

[Nachomamma8]

vote: Ika

strange pregame there.

It's strange but it's also the epitome of null.

[Nachomamma8]

I think it's also fairly null, considering all possible roles are roles that can be found in the 3x3 box.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks for the link!
I'm probably not going to read it; just be obviously town and we will get along just fine.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho and bjc are probable towns

/discuss

i'm pretty insulted but i agree re: bjc

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Abbott

[Nachomamma8]

he seems pretty genuine to me

[Nachomamma8]

he seems pretty genuine to me

Who are you addressing here?

you bucko

[Nachomamma8]

ika incredibly town

[Nachomamma8]

you should probably not vote town rayfrost

[Nachomamma8]

Interesting OMGUS from nacho.

[Nachomamma8]

Interesting OMGUS from nacho.

Ah yes. Neutral face. Very helpful content, there.

I've given out two more townreads than you have and I have explanations already formed that you haven't even considered yet. You don't need to demand content from me.

@nacho
What makes you think these guys are town?

ika as town: loud and aggressive
ika as scum: quiet and contentess

currently, ika lies in the realm of loud and aggressive and thus town.
I've liked bjc's efforts to get the game started; this might not be a townread that carries down the road, but he's sure as hell done a lot more to get the game moving than others have.

Hey nacho want to flip your vote to emeraldemon?

nope.

VOTE: AbboTT

im on break from work expect to find me later

^^this vote is a good vote

VOTE: nacho
Get out of spectator mode

I don't have time, and yet somehow I'm turning out more game relevant content than anyone else pretty much effortlessly.
Like on Abbott-scum. Why aren't you voting him?

I feel like my scum read on nacho is biassed by others.....

That could just be my paranioa kicking in but I see is is posting elsewhere on site. I am expecting him to come out and give imput on the posts. Im inclined to hear his reads and reasonings.

Follow my posting on site. If I ignore this game, call me out.
I have never ignored this game when I've had time.

[Nachomamma8]

My post was in jest. Unless nacho makes a compelling case to not be lynched (and even at L-1 I'm not sure nacho is in real danger of being lynched) or a new person takes the spotlight, I'm fine with a lynch.

hey why the fuck are you voting me
was "IC wagons are cool" compelling to you?

[Nachomamma8]

Why Abbott is the only decent wagon in the game so far (although bjc might be a decent wagon as well):

What a fantastic start. Lots of drama right out of the gate.

"Oh, look at all the wonderful content produced right out of the gate!"
Then Abbott goes on not even to dip his toe in the pool of drama and instead throws some nonsense useless questions at ika and pushes me for "OMGUS". If Abbott were town, he would be happier to delve into that drama, parse reads from it, but NOPE. This is the mark of scum.

Interesting OMGUS from nacho.

Ah yes. Neutral face. Very helpful content, there.

This attack of me responding to his shit attack with an emoticon sucks; it makes it seem like he's voting me for low content or actual reasons, but really his case on me is "omg! OMGUS!". He also implies that he expects content in response to his shit attack which is even more strange because who the hell expects a worthwhile response to an accusation like that?

Wagons are the fast track out of RVS.

OH HEY I WONDER WHY I VOTED YOU FOR NO REASON
HMMMMM

[Nachomamma8]

What did you get from my response, ika?

[Nachomamma8]

Right now im conflicted between Abbott and you. Both of you are claissifed as the higher teir in this game. So i feel like you were trying to stop your train. But at the same accord, your train picked up speed quite quickly for silly reasoning. But others did have an idea.

I figure between abbott and you right now. One of you are scum and the ohter is town. Or this is an elaborate ploy of cross bussing. However i dont think you would take it to that level of play in a newbie game.

We may have plenty of time but right now my 2 primary fos are you and abbott with a smaller one on bjc for big buddying with me. However i will wait a bit and see what others have to say.

I think that the forming a dichotomy between Abbott and I so early is the dangerous sort of reasoning; there is e possibility that both of us just didn't mesh easily this game for no apparent reason. Why do you find me scummy? Why do you find Abbott scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

LOL at Nacho's dramatic reaction to his wagon. Wow. Man, I love a good IC wagon. You know, "the bigger they are" and all of that.

I honestly didn't have any read on nacho until he threw a fit and clutched onto his little OMGUS baby blanket for protection.

It's either scum or ego. Undecided at the moment.

That being said, pressure on me is totally fair right now. I get it. This game is moving a little faster than my last few. I just need to adjust.

"Clutched his little OMGUS baby blanket to protection". What does that mean, exactly? I called you out for calling my vote OMGUS which, at that stage, is a weak accusation. If you disagree with this statement, feel free to refute it. I don't understand how me suspecting you equals scum or "ego" (ego because I'm pushing a serious case this early, or...?).

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: I don't have a handle on your playstyle yet. Would you help me understand something? You seem to be the type of player who drops a lot of unsupported reads (So-and-so is scum. So-and-so is incredibly town).

Are these your genuine reads or are you just sharing your gut reactions or current thoughts based on their most recent content?

I am usually very wary of people who declare things with certainty this early in the game. There are but a few people who _know_ who is scum and who is town. Those people are scum. Since townies have no real incentive to lie, that sort of bold posturing puts me off.

They are genuine reads and generally not baseless. I've seen ika scum. I've seen ika town. I don't believe distinguishing between the two is difficult. Other reads are not as strong, but they are still leanings.

[Nachomamma8]

In nacho's 95 he scolds me for supposedly demanding content from him and then, in the same post, invites ika to call him out if he isn't paying enough attention to the game.

Curious.

I don't think that an extraordinary amount of content will be produced at this stage of the game.
It is fair to call me out if you see me posting elsewhere but not here, because that would be scummy.

[Nachomamma8]

Hahaha. And then, in 98, he attacks me for the same thing again _and_ rewrites history here:

Then Abbott goes on not even to dip his toe in the pool of drama and instead throws some nonsense useless questions at ika and pushes me for "OMGUS". If Abbott were town, he would be happier to delve into that drama, parse reads from it, but NOPE. This is the mark of scum.

Either he doesn't understand my game at all or he is BSing here, hoping nobody will bother to check him. I commented on the drama and them immediately began investigating it.

What drama did you comment on?

[Nachomamma8]

How the heck did I OMGUS him? Lol... I started this. I am the one pressuring him, remember? Maybe we need to take a step back to page one for a moment.

As for your second paragraph, no. Maybe that's where the other votes are coming from, but that's not my motivation.

You pushed me because "IC wagon" and "OMGUS". I was the first to put actual pressure on.

[Nachomamma8]

No, the credibility is used up when it turns out you were wrong. The old story of the boy who cried wolf. That's all I'm saying.

Forceful is good. Confidence is fine if you really believe what you're saying. It's over-confidence that bugs me. Pretending like you _know_ something when in reality you just have a suspicion or a hunch.

Remember this started as a conversation about Nacho and his posts early in the game where he made snap decisions and presented them as fact. If I recall correctly he even directed one at you. "You probably shouldn't vote for town"

Content-less posturing.

Credibility is shot when I'm forceful about a read and that read turns out wrong, yes. So either I'm A) town with good reasoning for ika as town, or B) scum who believes there's a good case to make for ika town. Either way, there's a case for ika as town.

[Nachomamma8]

I called you out for calling my vote OMGUS which, at that stage, is a weak accusation.

Of course it's a weak accusation! OMGUS is always kind of a weak accusation, don't you think? Especially when you're smack dab in the middle of RVS.

You didn't call me out at the time, either. You simply offered a single emoticon with no commentary. I complained about it by remarking that your single emoticon wasn't helpful. Then you claimed I was "demanding content" from you. In reality, I was just stating what I saw. Yes, calling your vote OMGUS was weak. You could have started a discussion by saying something along those lines. Instead you gave me an emoticon. That stage of the game is all about sharing reactions and thoughts. You weren't sharing. It's as simple as that.

p-edit: Put pressure on who?

The commentary with that emoticon was "this accusation is dumb, you're probably not serious I hope". You then acted like you expected a serious response to a weak accusation, which is what made me suspicious of you in the first place. Maybe I didn't do everything that I could in order to facilitate discussion at that point in time, but that doesn't matter much considering empty discussion gets both parties 6 more pages in and absolutely nowhere.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm telling you that C and D aren't true.
E and F dont make sense.

[Nachomamma8]

The commentary with that emoticon was "this accusation is dumb, you're probably not serious I hope".

That's fair and expected. But I don't know you and I can't read your mind. That's all I'm saying.

You can't read my mind.
But you expected me to put to words my reaction and you found it scummy that I didn't? Even though you weren't expecting a substantial reaction from me anyways?

[Nachomamma8]

The thing about ika comes down to this: is the carelessness a town tell? Moving votes around, semi-random reads thrown about. It doesn't feel careful the way you might expect scum to be careful. But maybe he's just looking for a lynch to get behind without putting too much effort in. No honest scumhunting feel either. Maybe too glib?
@nacho
I didn't see any finished games from ika on this site. Do you know his meta from somewhere else?

bjc's vote and explanation in 104 is weaksauce on waffles. Also his trajectory on ika rings false to me: in 60 he says he's wary (after I accuse him of buddying), 84 says "I can't say he's confirmed townie" which means nothing. In 108 answering ika's question about strongest townread he says "Ugh, probably ika. lol." Where is this coming from?

I dunno, but for now it's enough to
VOTE: bjc

@RayFrost
I'd like to hear your opinion about bjc please.

Yes, I do.

[Nachomamma8]

Guys if read my post, I breadcrumbed JK for a reaction test, and bjc immediately Omgus'd me by saying i'm scum, then ika voting me. Now I'm 50% sure of ika/bjc scumbuddying.

This is probably town.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: RobW

This is probably scum.

I feel good about ika town and RayFrost town. I feel decently about Abbott town, and LMB town.
I kind of like emerald but nothing too definitive, and bjc is starting to lean scum.

[Nachomamma8]

you expected me to put to words my reaction and you found it scummy that I didn't?

I didn't

expect

, but I would have liked it. Keep in mind that I wasn't scum-reading you at that point. Per my 115:

I honestly didn't have any read on nacho until he threw a fit...

So no, I did not find your lone emoticon to be especially scummy. I did, however, see your following content as icky scum scum ick.

And, as I asked before, where did I throw a fit?

[Nachomamma8]

He made a post where the first letter of his first sentence was "J", and the second letter of his second sentence was "K" in order to see who would try to lynch him. I don't agree with the basis of the reaction test, but the fact that he did it read as pretty fucking town to me.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: Wednesday evening. The whole chain of posts looked like it was driven by some sort of manufactured emotion to me. I wasn't

just

trying to be inflammatory with my drunk/high comment. I really would have accepted that as a plausible answer lol.

95 & 98: you give two separate commentaries on the same exchange you and I had. Like a drunken guy in an argument, "Aah...ahhnnd another thing!"
96: you curse at bjc.
98: All caps at me. Losing your cool. You proclaim I am the "only decent wagon" (except maybe bjc)


p-edit: I get that, Nacho. But I get what sort of test that would supposedly be. It seems useless. What would it prove? Please. Like I'm a stupid toddler.

95 was a catchup post and a response directed at you. 98 was a case and thus directed at everyone except for you.
I swear a lot, it's not an indication if emotion.
Caps isn't losing my cool; it's emphasizing a point. Calling you the only decent wagon doesn't actually mean I'm throwing a fit; it's just my opinion.

[Nachomamma8]

Which calls do you feel are the most random/most weakly supported?

[Nachomamma8]

I have a meta read on you based on the site you play at with Titus and my own personal experiences with you. I've found the difference between both games pretty easy to distinguish between and don't think the call is particularly difficult to make (active vs not active). When you play with a player for a while and have a more intimate read of their meta, generally more information tends to obfuscate the read as you're known for reading that player, as you're pressured to read that player. I don't have that player and I don't have an excess of information, hence that read being a fairly easy one for me to make.

I'm saying that my inactivity, when it comes, is because I'm busy. If you have evidence to the contrary, call me out for it. Otherwise, you're just going to have to take me at my word when I say that I'm busy.

[Nachomamma8]

How the heck did I OMGUS him? Lol... I started this. I am the one pressuring him, remember? Maybe we need to take a step back to page one for a moment.

As for your second paragraph, no. Maybe that's where the other votes are coming from, but that's not my motivation.

You pushed me because "IC wagon" and "OMGUS". I was the first to put actual pressure on.

Why do you think you were the first to put actual pressure on? I do agree his reason was "IC wagon" with possible OMGUS, but even OMGUS is technical pressure no matter how bad it is

No, the credibility is used up when it turns out you were wrong. The old story of the boy who cried wolf. That's all I'm saying.

Forceful is good. Confidence is fine if you really believe what you're saying.

It's over-confidence that bugs me.

Pretending like you _know_ something when in reality you just have a suspicion or a hunch.

Remember this started as a conversation about Nacho and his posts early in the game where he made snap decisions and presented them as fact. If I recall correctly he even directed one at you. "You probably shouldn't vote for town"

Content-less posturing.

Credibility is shot when I'm forceful about a read and that read turns out wrong, yes. So either I'm A) town with good reasoning for ika as town, or B) scum who believes there's a good case to make for ika town. Either way, there's a case for ika as town.

The bolded part is what i feel like is happening, you KNOW the people are town, so you are going "ya town there" and not a "gut town" there. As also stated you went at frost saying dont vote town. But some of your next posts come up contridcting it.

So either I'm A) town with good reasoning for ika as town, or B) scum who believes there's a good case to make for ika town. Either way, there's a case for ika as town.

C) town who is working off a gut reaction and has no good reason
D) town who has just picked someone at random to townread in hopes of starting discussion
E) scum who is bussing
D) scum who is distancing

Please don't present something as a A-B scenario when it could be any number of outcomes.

The commentary with that emoticon was "this accusation is dumb, you're probably not serious I hope".

That's fair and expected. But I don't know you and I can't read your mind. That's all I'm saying.

I'm telling you that C and D aren't true.
E and F dont make sense.

So lets go with C and D are not true. You have eliminated 2 town sloted ideas for yourself and are saying the next 2 are not nessacarly false, but are ridiculous. Are you saying that you are not town here and that you are scum?

1) Shitty technical pressure is not real pressure. Occasionally you stumble on a gold mine and someone responds in a really scummy way, but what really is a really scummy response to an accusation that obviously has no basis in reality whatsoever?

2) If you feel I'm calling them town because I know their town, then the contradiction in my bjc townread doesn't make much sense, does it? Why do you think me as scum would call people out as town strongly and early when I will likely be forced to contradict myself down the road to mislynch them later? Again, why can't I have a legitimate read at that point? When is it socially acceptable to form reads?

3) No, I'm pointing out that the two scum possibilities make no sense and thus aren't true. I don't explicitly deny every scum accusation because it's redundant as all hell.

[Nachomamma8]

Is the idea that he was trying to pretend like he was a PR?

Why would a PR use "JK" as a breadcrumb?

seek reactions? see if anyone reads inbeween the lines. really you have to ask the person themself.

well after all that i feel like nacho will give us the most information.

VOTE: nacho

his slotting most ppl as town for his reasoning are plausable but some of his post are just out there and seem off. His reads give indication that he knows that they are town and he is doing it to try to keep distance. He also has not given us anything on timeshift as if hes tring to distance himself from him while giveing reads about everyone else atm. my decision is 99.9% final on nacho/timshift.

timesift also seems to have the same type of posting where he says ray is "misguided town" and tbh i belive it, but if thats the case, how would he exactly know or be so accraute about something like that? im willing to go at these 2 atm.

I forgot about tier shift.
Calling us confirmed scum together because I forgot a buddy is stupid; I don't think I've ever "forgotten" a buddy in my life, and I've always been happy enough to talk and interact with them. Why do you think I would forget to name my scum partner in my reads list? Do you really think I can't buddy/distance with a partner after all these years of playing?

[Nachomamma8]

I have a meta read on you based on the site you play at with Titus and my own personal experiences with you. I've found the difference between both games pretty easy to distinguish between and don't think the call is particularly difficult to make (active vs not active). When you play with a player for a while and have a more intimate read of their meta, generally more information tends to obfuscate the read as you're known for reading that player, as you're pressured to read that player. I don't have that player and I don't have an excess of information, hence that read being a fairly easy one for me to make.

I'm saying that my inactivity, when it comes, is because I'm busy. If you have evidence to the contrary, call me out for it. Otherwise, you're just going to have to take me at my word when I say that I'm busy.

Well what you have been doing is somewhat of a mirror of what titus did when she quickly slotted me town, however we have more games played so i have a better handle on her. Here you have only seen very little of me but seem VERY confident in it. Your confidence in it seems too strong to be town and is more scum.

Ika, I've had games where I ignore my scum buddies, bus them, distance from them, buddy up to them, and done a mix of these for different people. I even had a game where I essentially let myself die in order for a buddy to be a completely solid and beautiful town read.

I don't consistently play well as scum, so naturally that must mean that my playstyle is inconsistent as well.

Fair enough, i would like to hear how others play as scum. I have seen some players have a consitency when playing scum.

I am a confident player. I have been a confident player for a while now. This means, that I am confident regardless of alignment. I do not need more experience than the experience I have in order to be fairly confident of your alignment. Why do you think I need to see more?

[Nachomamma8]

Finally, why LMB's breadcrumb is town:

As scum, this whole scenario is dropping a fake crumb and then creating a fake reaction test off this fake crumb and then attacking a fake experienced off this fake crumb and off this fake reaction test is all for towncred. There's no way he could expect the lynch to go through on RayFrost considering having no real reason to call him scum over others, and I doubt he took the time to plan this out as scum considering its a lot of effort for not a lot of gain and a fucking crazy thing to think of. I think as scum he may have crumbed, and held onto it for later so that he could bolster a JK claim later; I don't think that new scum would plan out a gambit this elaborate for towncred and nothing but towncred right out of the gate.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know, I can't really get behind a Rob vote right now because he's posted twice I think, or maybe three times.

Why does this translate into you not being willing to vote him? I thought you were happy with most votes unless you had a townread on the player, and you obviously can't have a townread on Rob based on three or so posts.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: RobinWilliams

I am clearly never going to get support for the ika lynch because everyone just sees it as his ~playstyle~ (I really really

really

hate how much my games have been "rayfrost made a good case but it's untrue because it's ~playstyle~" lately).

And I am willing to vote here for [Reasons].

I very rarely use meta and meta alone to shut a read down completely, but when meta is extremely definitive, I go with it. I also find that his latest posts sound extremely genuine and don't really care how much he's contradicting himself as a result.

[Nachomamma8]

Something I need to point out to the new players: people defending other people does

not

mean they are scumbuddies. Scumbuddies mostly avoid each other as to not draw attention to them.

I don't really understand all the scumreads ika has been getting. I might say I'm annoyed by his posting but it does feel genuine.

I don't particularly like LMB's entrance, just restating the case that emerald did before. Do give that buttload of evidence, though.

Im reading this post and this is one of those post that rubs me wrong after reading others and responses, Especialy the sencond part about me. It almost feels like you are trying to fencesit here. The last sentance really rubs me wrong if he is jk or think that his breadcumb for fk is not good. I personally disliked it as well due tot he fact on how stuble it was and how he expected everyone to see it. But i see where hes was coming from now.

I didn't think his entrance, the JK crumb, was particularly alignment indicative and I don't understand why nacho and abbott do. I was talking about his 193, which was uninspired and echoing what emerald said before.
And I don't believe I'm fencesitting about you, I have said that I think you are town and that I don't understand the scumreads. Is that fencesitting to you?

Hardcore defending at the start of day 1 usually means they are not scumbuddies, though.

Really? how so? can you elaborate on that?

Scumbuddies want to avoid attracting attention to them being a scumteam. Plus, if it is obvious that the defending is not genuine, then upon a flip of one player, the other one will be heavily suspected as scum.

I pretty thoroughly explained the JK point. Why do you disagree?

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not using meta for my read on Ray; I have no understanding of your case at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Your switch doesn't work at all, either, and I'm not sure I understand your point in switching them around, either. Creating fake gambits as scum is more difficult than faking gambits as town similar to how scumhunting as scum is more difficult than scumhunting as town; it requires a more complex thought process to go "okay this is what I would do as town so this is what I will do here".

[Nachomamma8]

Also guys, I can't believe I'm saying this to a IC/SE, but are you FREAKING out of your mind? We have good scum reads and do not blindly lynch RobW for inactivity. He'll get replaced soon which is much better then wasting a lynch.

We're not blindly lynching anyone for inactivity.

[Nachomamma8]

Also guys, I can't believe I'm saying this to a IC/SE, but are you FREAKING out of your mind? We have good scum reads and do not blindly lynch RobW for inactivity. He'll get replaced soon which is much better then wasting a lynch.

We're not blindly lynching anyone for inactivity.

oh really? plz tell me more how we are not blindly doing it for inactivity.

The big thing is that we're not lynching him right now!

[Nachomamma8]

Reading through (with some skimming) players I don't like:

Emeraldemon

Even in the actual content ED posts, I get this feeling (and this is how RayFrost describes my posting, minus the flexibility) "..lack of proactivity when it comes to scumhunting. He's been an almost completely passive recipient of the game. He posts, but many of them give the feeling of "I have posted content, now you guys can use this bone to go away and ignore me."

I can agree with this quote towards ED more than I can agree with it towards you, I guess.

[Nachomamma8]

Ye dun vote my scumbuddy u bastard

The better response would have been to explain.
Please do so.

[Nachomamma8]

The above being said, I actually feel a lot better about this than rob.

The most major points against bjc, in my opinion, are his complete flexibility, and lack of proactivity when it comes to scumhunting. He's been an almost completely passive recipient of the game. He posts, but many of them give the feeling of "I have posted content, now you guys can use this bone to go away and ignore me." How much follow up has he had on

anything

he's done this game? I'm not going to lie, he's got posts that are content-heavy in terms of giving reads and opinions, but almost all of them are one-offs. Like a butterfly settling on a flower without pollinating. Drop here, deposit opinion, fly away and deposit opinion elsewhere, rinse repeat. There's no commitment to anything, and there's a line between having shifting reads and a long list of votes by convenience. I feel like he's crossed that line.

This. It's good. It made me think.
And now the lazy emerald vote which doesn't go much further than 'no content'

So...sheep? That seems pretty weak at this stage.

[Nachomamma8]

Hostile place

Hi lurking new scum!

[Nachomamma8]

Sheeping a good case=weak?

P-edit: nope no scumbuddy intreaction there sorry

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry then.

Fwiw your rob vote is weaker, do something with your vote. What do you think your vote on rob will accomplish?

At this point? Lynching scum.
It amazes me that everyone else apparently thinks that there's a chance of this guy being town.

[Nachomamma8]

Why the hell is cockiness scummy?
How is bjc in any way expressing cockiness?

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry then.

Fwiw your rob vote is weaker, do something with your vote. What do you think your vote on rob will accomplish?

At this point? Lynching scum.
It amazes me that everyone else apparently thinks that there's a chance of this guy being town.

He's null and you aren't gonna convince me otherwise on the basis of 4 empty posts.

Why do you think he playing the way he is?
Do you not think the posting to avoid replacement is a little bit sketchy despite apparently having no interest in the game whatsoever?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah. I mean it's hard to base a scum read on lurking alone.

@Nacho: What would Rob's his lynch teach us after the flip?

That's the big reason why I'm not pushing it.

We will learn that he's scum. Towns in newbie games that manage to lynch scum Day 1 have a 90% chance of winning. That seems a fine enough scenario to me.

[Nachomamma8]

Why the hell is cockiness scummy?
How is bjc in any way expressing cockiness?

its not always scummy, it just find that scums do it more often.

That is such a lame vote. Good job enabling scum to sit on my wagon.

this to me reads a null-cocky attitude. but its just kinda what m getting from it. i still kinda get a town from him but his continued way is starting to reach out to me as "you wont lynch me"

"Scums do it more often". Where do you get this information from?

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry then.

Fwiw your rob vote is weaker, do something with your vote. What do you think your vote on rob will accomplish?

At this point? Lynching scum.
It amazes me that everyone else apparently thinks that there's a chance of this guy being town.

He's null and you aren't gonna convince me otherwise on the basis of 4 empty posts.

Why do you think he playing the way he is?
Do you not think the posting to avoid replacement is a little bit sketchy despite apparently having no interest in the game whatsoever?

ever thought of board citizen (or vt as you guys call it)? i dont doubt he could be scum but ive seen citizen do almost no content post becasue they are just board. also if he does flip town you would become another big target becasue you are the one who started it.

If he's bored, then he would replace out or talk or say that he's bored or something. This is just ridiculous.
And yep, I'm aware of that. It doesn't affect my stance on him.

[Nachomamma8]

Look, if you guys are eager to lynch someone now, then lynch Rob holy hell. He isn't posting crap but just enough to stay in the game. There is probably scum on my wagon.

I hate this post.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry then.

Fwiw your rob vote is weaker, do something with your vote. What do you think your vote on rob will accomplish?

At this point? Lynching scum.
It amazes me that everyone else apparently thinks that there's a chance of this guy being town.

He's null and you aren't gonna convince me otherwise on the basis of 4 empty posts.

Why do you think he playing the way he is?
Do you not think the posting to avoid replacement is a little bit sketchy despite apparently having no interest in the game whatsoever?

You didn't answer my questions.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean by the stupid newbie comment?

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean by the stupid newbie comment?

Still waiting, TierShift.
So far the only arguments I can hear for not lynching Rob are "what if he is town? Lurking isn't scummy!" and "what information do we gain from his lynch?" which are both piss poor arguments that don't actually address his changes of being scum. Rob is posting the barest minimum that he can get away with without being replaced. What does this mean as far as his alignment goes? This means that he's meeting the minimum quota to stay under the game, his one and only vote balanced out an ika wagon with an emerald wagon (funny, because that's who I think is his scum partner). If he didn't want to play, he wouldn't have to. Normally, when newbies get bored, they replace out. Rob has an investment that's large enough to warrant him logging onto this site every few days to make sure that he doesn't get replaced, and yet his posts show absolutely no impetus to catching scum, no intent to catch scum, nothing. Do you think it's because he doesn't know what to do? No, he can ask for help if he needs it; that's what I'm here for. Do you think it's because every time he logs on his fingers are so frozen that he can only type out a word or two at best? Because that's the best explanation I can see here other than "he's scum".

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean by the stupid newbie comment?

It means they are irrational. Posting like that is super null in newbies.

Irrational implies a failure of logic. Where is Rob's logic bad?

[Nachomamma8]

Spoiler: lol

"Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative." ~UncertainKitten

Can this guy just read my mind

You say that him posting fluff every 2 days is scum not wanting to scumhunt. Which is what a rational human being would do. Newbies are irrational, hence.

Another explanation:
He has no idea how this game works and he is just hanging around here. In time he will get bored and get replaced. What he's done so far is the epitome of null so just let this idea go.

Why is emerald his buddy? Because he is also lurking?

Maybe you should not play in newbie games if you think lutking is scummy.

At this point, you're seeing what you want to see, which is fine.

[Nachomamma8]

What do you mean by the stupid newbie comment?

Still waiting, TierShift.
So far the only arguments I can hear for not lynching Rob are "what if he is town? Lurking isn't scummy!" and "what information do we gain from his lynch?" which are both piss poor arguments that don't actually address his changes of being scum. Rob is posting the barest minimum that he can get away with without being replaced. What does this mean as far as his alignment goes? This means that he's meeting the minimum quota to stay under the game, his one and only vote balanced out an ika wagon with an emerald wagon (funny, because that's who I think is his scum partner). If he didn't want to play, he wouldn't have to.

Normally

, when newbies get bored, they replace out.

Rob has an investment that's large enough to warrant him logging onto this site every few days to make sure that he doesn't get replaced, and yet his posts show absolutely no impetus to catching scum, no intent to catch scum, nothing. Do you think it's because he doesn't know what to do? No, he can ask for help if he needs it; that's what I'm here for. Do you think it's because every time he logs on his fingers are so frozen that he can only type out a word or two at best? Because that's the best explanation I can see here other than "he's scum".

i bolded the important part, and underlined the more important word. you are going with what "normally" happens. alwasys expect unexpected

What normally happens happens quite a bit, believe it or not.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not exactly what Burden of Proof mean, but this isn't AP Language class so I'll pass on that.


Look at AbboTT's reason for why I'm scum, then change the name of which the post is addressing from bjc to emeraldemon, and you have it!

Why did you say "if you all are so hungry for a lynch, why don't you lynch Rob"?

[Nachomamma8]

TOWN:
Ika
Abbott
Ray
LMB

LEAN TOWN:
TierShift
Bjc

LEAN SCUM:
Emerald

SCUM:
Rob

Will post more substantial content tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm back from busy world. Will likely make a post tonight.

[Nachomamma8]

EBWOP: Or the reluctance of someone to shift votes. It just doesn't seem logical to lynch someone that actively posts content in a mafia game on day one over someone who hasn't done anything, won't be replaced, and may/may not be scum unless of course you are scum.

This makes sense.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry for being gone so long, signing up for three games simultaneously was a mistake but I'm still going to try to win this thing.

I know this isn't the most useful, but here's what I was thinking as I caught up:

176: I don't like the way ika just throws shit around. Bleh... could be town though

182: "I have had a bad expeince with ppl makign cases and have them flipping towns and then follow them again." I can deal with the terrible spelling and grammar (although I wish I didn't have to), but I have no fucking idea what you're trying to say here.

193: this sounds a lot like the case I made earlier, except with quote walls.

225 & 227: I agree, except about ika.

246: So saying anything with confidence is a scumtell?

256: Hard to put my finger on, but bjc sounds so submissive all the time, feels bad to me.

257: "if i die due to nk. Plz look into nacho/teirshift as scums" wtf is this? Why would anyone nk you? Don't like.

282: Whaaat? No.

355: Abbott never quite makes my radar ping either way. Everything he does seems reasonable, but kinda bland or something.

376: "if i end up dying" This again. Someone who knows what's up, is constantly saying you'll get night-killed a scum tell? Cause I'm thinking it is.

386: Oh man, I went from town vibes to scum partner. That's what I get for being AFK I guess.


UP TO DATE READS

TOWN
Nachomamma - I agree with almost every post from him that isn't about ika
lynch me bro - newbtown all the way
RayFrost - I like your ability to write in complete paragraphs
Abbott - null still
tiershift - aggressively townreading me, not sure if this is a test
ika - badfeels
bjc - probably scum
Rob W - The real test will be if we get him to L-1
SCUM

bjc and Rob are tied for last, I am fine with lynching either. I will put some more thoughtful posts together in a bit.

Can you give more thorough reasons for your reads list?
Why is getting Rob to L-1 the real test?

[Nachomamma8]

Mother of god, waking up at 4 in the afternoon because I'm sick as a dog and took the day off to find a posting explosion.

Going to leave my vote on rob, I do not have intent to hammer as of right now due to the fact that we have so much more to discuss. We've got time, no need to rush the lynch.

I am not really a fan of reasonless reads posts, but I guess I'll do it to satisfy ika. It will be done via a spectrum: the closer they are to the word, the stronger I read them as that.

Town
Nacho
Ika
-------- (space to show distance)
Abott
Tiershift
Lyme
--------
Emerald
Rob bjc
Scum

Why do you care about satisfying ika?

[Nachomamma8]

I really would like to know how Ika's throught process went from TS = Kill it with fire to TS = Sheep.

Ika isn't scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Because he has offered nothing to relieve my suspicions and keeps acting survivalistic as fuck.

I don't stall the robw lynch, I disapprove of it entirely. If we really really have nothing better at deadline and no one else wants to lynch bjc, I will hammer rob but not happily.

P-edit:
I suppose my next biggest suspicion would be nacho, for his big weak case on a lurker who is unlikely to defend himself. Lynching lurkers is not the way to go in newbie games and nacho knows that.

What do you mean with equal chance of being scum?
Everyone starts out with a 25% chance of being scum (8 other players/2 scum) and I have seen nothing from robw to chance this percentage, while I think bjc has a much bigger chance to flip scum.
This equal percentage talk is awful.

Please tell me why you think lynching lurkers in a newbie game is a bad idea.

[Nachomamma8]

Hi guys, I've been reading since i sent the replacement request and I'm currently at Page 17.

Reads as of now:
Town: Nacho, the snowman avatar guy, TS.
Scum: bjc, Rob, ED (which means im wrong about at least 1 of these)

Not in any specific order.

Unvote

In case my predecessor was voting someone.

I was going to unvote Rob because your posts the past few pages have seemed pretty town. This makes a lot more sense.

[Nachomamma8]

I would never personally call nacho godly in his scumhunting, but I've known him for ages.

That's because you're a hater!

[Nachomamma8]

Well weekend's coming hopefully i can hear from Nacho and he starts showing me his PoV and I can start working with him and Ray since those 2 are my strongest reads atm. And then we form a nice happy townbloc and PoE the hell out of scum and win \o\ \o/ /o/

Ika is town.
Ray is town.
You're town.
LMB is town.
Bjc is town.

I actually liked emerald's recent string of posting, starting to hate Tier's posting more and more because it reads like he's defending a scumbuddy in Rob. There's no reason why someone should be so adamantly against lynching a lurker and I don't believe that's a usual hate in place for TierShift to hate lynching lurkers, sooo

[Nachomamma8]

I may be willing to compromise with ED if ED can convince the town to vote TS.

I'm much happier lynching TierShift than I am ED at this point.
I have no idea why the Rob wagon is being ignored to such a large extent, though. Are people really this afraid of lynchigng a lurker?

[Nachomamma8]

bjc and ika let me ask you, what do you think about tiershift's read on me and how it's progressed this game?

Let me answer this: I think it's bullshit.

[Nachomamma8]

Please tell me why you think lynching lurkers in a newbie game is a bad idea.

Lurking is a non-tell and even more so in newbie games and that's just the way it is.

Let me rephrase it: lynching lurkers for the fact that they are lurkers in newbie games is bad.

If there's more to it, it's fine. If it's a deadline compromise, it's fine. But actively pushing for them because of lurking. No.

Lurking isn't a non tell. It is if they replace out, but if they manage to stay in the game while lurking like hell, it isn't.

I also have plenty of townreads elsewhere, which I'm sure is what Sakura is alluding to in my push on Rob. Every townread I get from an active player is a greater probability that the lurker is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

That last part is true. The first part isn't.

Lurking like hell while staying in the game is a non-tell for newbies, really

.

If PoE it's fine.

Now support this statement without acting like it's accepted fact.

[Nachomamma8]

I can agree if you back the statement up even a little bit.
What newbie games have you read?

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d
1450: Scum were Tool and Phokdapolees.
Tool has 38 posts (9 more than the mod), Phok has 12.

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=28482
Scum replaced out twice in this slot: Fegelein had 86 posts (9 more than mod), Karnage had somewhere around the realm of 60.

[Nachomamma8]

+

Okay I now have stats for the first 48 Newbie Matrix6 games (a bit more than half) (games 1370 - 1417).

Spoiler: MOAR GRAFZ

So the IC replacement rate isn't as bad as we thought it was. But the Newbie stats tell the story -

a newbie is 1.5 times more likely to replace out as scum

. The lack of parity for setups 1 and 2 is also evident.

I'll try to post once more once I get through all consecutive completed games.

If newbies replace out as scum more than they do as town, doesn't it make sense for them to lurk more as scum than they do as town...?

[Nachomamma8]

This is awkward. I could swear I've seen at least a couple newbie games with hc lurkers but now I've checked the activity levels of like 10 and not a single hc lurker.
Then, I have a sample size of one and that one is town, rothwell in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33357

Even though I can't back up my argument now, I still don't see backup for yours. You are quoting all non-newbie slots.

The graph that you quoted, however, shows something else. Newbie who replace out are scum (I really hope this doesn't become a scumtell), but Rob is not replacing yet and both me and bjc replaced into a newbie slot, so using that on rob is a bit moot.

How do you think newbie scum get replaced?

[Nachomamma8]

Lurking is something that comes from scum plenty; new scum replacing out more often than new town by such a significant margin suggests that new players lurking their asses off IS a perfectly reasonable scumtell. Follow my train of logic: People who get replaced flake much more often than they request replacement. People who flake generally lurk more than people who don't. Hence, people who get replaced usually lurk. If you keep in mind that scum newbies replace out more than town newbies do, then newbies who lurk are more likely to be scum. This means that being reluctant to lynch them "because they are lurking" is a shitty response.

[Nachomamma8]

Now, why do I think newbies lurk more as scum? I think that playing town is something that comes more naturally to a lot of people; it is very difficult to fake scumhunting if you've never seen scumhunting before. So, newbies get their role PMs, they go "what the hell am I supposed to do?", and they freeze up. This specific case shows a newbie who is posting so they will not get replaced; this tells me that he wants to play, but is likely having trouble scumhunting so literally did not know what to post.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, no.
If there were people who have played scummier, I would have lynched them ages ago.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I wanted to satisfy ika because I wanted to see where he'd go with it. What he did was completely not what I had imagined, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with being willing to perform an exercise for a town read.

When did you change your mind about ika?

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't make a mistake so much as the wording was a bit ambiguous.

Anyway, I've been procrastinating reading this book a bit too much. I need to finish it within the next three or four hours.

RADIO SILENCE OR RIOT

also, much love to you all

especially the entire cast of queen

Wait hold on. Why are we townreading sakura / abbott? I thought that slot was somewhere between null and scum.

@Sakura
Can you tell me what made you flip to ika scum?

Time is short, we're gonna have to lynch soonish. Post 670 from Tiershift actually felt townish to me, but maybe I am getting too caught up in it. I have always been OK with lynching Rob.

Abbott's been town as hell for a while now.

[Nachomamma8]

I never said abott was null / scum. I actually listed him as leaning town, and hana is townposting to me, so she's a towny read.

Ika's my strongest town read at the moment, hana is #2, and I'm getting a feeling about nacho. It might just be my haterade, though. huehue

Probably.
At least you're staying hydrated!

[Nachomamma8]

I don't really agree about Sakura being town, but I don't think we can deal with that right now. It looks like the only realistic lynches are Rob W or Tiershift, with an outside chance of bjc. In some ways Rob W + Tiershift scumteam makes sense, tiershift has been the most resistant to the Rob lynch.

Rob is probably going to get replaced with 48 hours left or something like that, his replacement will make a spurt of vaguely townish posts, and either we'll lynch him anyway or we won't. I feel like it'll be very difficult to get an accurate read on a completely new player in a day.

Yeah, I feel bad for whoever replaces in.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually anyone that has modded newbie games could inform me on that one ^

Your original thought was right.

[Nachomamma8]

Rob because emerald might be scum although I'm not particularly convinced of that at this point. Everyone else is town.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

To both questions.

[Nachomamma8]

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Claim.

[Nachomamma8]

did you see my post on lmb?

[Nachomamma8]

it is pretty great after all

[Nachomamma8]

the post that comes soon after

[Nachomamma8]

Also im quite interested in seeing if/how ffery's replacing into a newbie slot affects his read on that slot considering all the "newbies replace out as scum more often" discussion that happened earlier.

requesting replacement is different
i'm also gonna read ffery as ffery i'm not gonna use bullshit tells???

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho do u still want kop (Rob's slot) dead?

probably but i haven't read a word kop said so far soo

[Nachomamma8]

started from the bottom now we're still busy

[Nachomamma8]

ffery who are we lynching

[Nachomamma8]

Sakura? Veto.

Vote: TierShift

[Nachomamma8]

GIF YOU SON OF A BITCH

[Nachomamma8]

MANGO IS MY FAVORITE GOD DAMN FLAVOR

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: PISSKOP

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho.

ffery?

[Nachomamma8]

pisskop, why do you think i'm confirmation biased?

[Nachomamma8]

poe i never believed in any statistical shit

[Nachomamma8]

poe i never believed in any statistical shit

Hm.

Have you read his completed newbie scum game? I scanned it for tone and textual body language on day 1 after I replaced in. I'll take a look at the night kills.

ED was the only player who still had a strong scumread of him, I think.

I can't say I have.
I can say that I'm having trouble finding alternatives, though.

[Nachomamma8]

did you look at the interactions between Sakura and me on page 49? And her earlier interactions with pisskop?

yep. what about them is supposed to pursuade me to vote her?
did you read abbott's play? did you not get a great townread on him?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: RayFrost

i still don't think pisskop is town

[Nachomamma8]

Hana isn't scum.

[Nachomamma8]

What's the deal with 'Frost doe? Is this vote because he's quiet? Or do you think he just parked his vote on his buddy early and coasted through the previous day?

I currently feel he's a less horrible lynch than alternatives proposed.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: pisskop

[Nachomamma8]

Nope. Not what she asked.

Why is he less horrible?

because he's less town than sakura is?

[Nachomamma8]

sakura why are you ignoring this game?

[Nachomamma8]

I'd like to think that I'm subtle as scum. Wisdom just always reads me as scum regardless of alignment. It's like gambling.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the rest of your post.

I don't necessarily like this reaction.

[Nachomamma8]

No?

[Nachomamma8]

Ray, who do you think is scum?

[Nachomamma8]

I meant "wrong train of thought." I'm kinda loopy right now cuz I've been working all day on shit.

If you're going to say that you don't like something, you shouldn't be hedging your bet with "necessarily" - do you like it or not? Why?

Also, I expect you'll give thoughts on other things one post at a time so I'll leave you to it.

P-edit: I think abott / hana is scum almost completely off of abott's posting, hana was somewhat townish but not enough to override my feelings on the matter of abott / tiershift interactions being so minimalistic especially after tiershift said that he feels scumbuddies should avoid commenting on each other (which I imagine he'd express to abott in their mafia qt and lead to a bit more likely of a lack of interaction from abott).

I also am heavily completely thoroughly against pisskop because I just simply flat out don't see him as scum. I don't give a damn if you think it's white knighting or not. His posting is of a similar level of genuine helpless helpfulness and somewhat out-of-logical-bounds thinking that permeated the game you and I just finished with him.

I don't like it because you're discrediting Wisdom's ability to read you without really making any real effort to sort the slot. It seems to me that scum usually get more concerned with shitty tunnels on them than town does.

[Nachomamma8]

I replied to all the portions of what he said. I just really have a grudge against blind-tunnels from people who are self-aware of their own bias. I mean, at a certain point, there should be somekind of adjustment in how you view things.

But he's not and it bugs me. I still think the slot is town, and I expressed that before I thought but I guess not.

Also, I have to reply to a shitty tunnel if it's getting weight based off of other people being like "yeah sure I guess why not" about it.

Things tend to happen that way because there's a lot of strong townreads floating around and not a lot of strong scumreads, which more often than not points to good scum. Why do you think Tier was so confident in defending pisskop?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't know why he'd be so confident in defending pisskop. Maybe because it's easy to say someone's town when other people are saying the same thing already?

I mean, it's not like he was the first person to argue the position (IIRC, I was).

And I'm not saying I don't get why people are expressing a willingness to go along with wisdom. I get it. It's scum lynched day 1 and a lot of people seem town, so it's simple to just lazily go with someone else's suggestion if you don't have anything strong to go off of. Doesn't make it any less tiresome to be on the receiving end of.

I'm talking about him defending Rob earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

Vote: RayFrost

[Nachomamma8]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

Vote: RayFrost

Are you feeling better about pisskop?

A little. Not much.

[Nachomamma8]

vote: Rayfrost

Why the fuck did you hammer him so quickly when you have so many other scumreads to worry about elsewhere?

[Nachomamma8]

Why the fuck did you vote him so quickly without a case?

Because I wanted to sort him out...?

[Nachomamma8]

You do realize these two things aren't the same, right?

[Nachomamma8]

I guess Ray was scum.

[Nachomamma8]

ffery, agree Nacho's behavior post-hammer seems like scum-Nacho wanting to make pisskop seem scummy for the next lynch?

Why do I need to do that, exactly?

[Nachomamma8]

Because you need to avoid getting lynched?

Why do I need to make pisskop seem scummy in twilight?

[Nachomamma8]

And how have I been saying he's scummy in twilight? I told him that he hammered too fast and was pissed about it. This has absolutely no bearing on my opinion of his alignment whatsoever.

[Nachomamma8]

Because you can use his hammer as an excuse.

An excuse for what? Still pushing him as scum?
Do I really need a reason for that when I've been pushing his slot all game?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho don't be acting like you don't understand what I'm saying. You are trying to make his hammer appear like a scummy action. Being pissed about it is fake too, you were voting RayFrost and said you are fine with his lynch, therefore you have no right getting pissed about a hammer on him.

No, it doesn't. Sometimes, in this game of mafia, you say "hey let's lynch this guy" as an attempt to pressure him. This doesn't mean you instantly lynch him, and it doesn't mean I shouldn't be frustrated with a quickhammer when it happens.

[Nachomamma8]

And look at the lack of me calling that hammer scummy in my posts.
It's really remarkable, isn't it?

[Nachomamma8]

Bullshit. Remember how I was "pissed" at people quickhammering Mara in Polygamist? That's the kind of "pissed" you are. Excuse to make your pisskop push easier tomorrow.

"I fake raged in a scum game thus you're fake raging now!"

[Nachomamma8]

And look at the lack of me calling that hammer scummy in my posts.
It's really remarkable, isn't it?

That doesn't matter at all. Your post still makes people think "oh what a scummy hummer! pisskop might be scum!" which is your intention.

Wait.
So I'm scummy because I brought up a hammer that annoyed me (and did you know I'm generally known to dislike when people are lynched too quickly?) because I'm somehow manipulating the town into thinking his hammer was scummy? What did you expect from me as town? Did you expect me to ignore it completely?

[Nachomamma8]

And why can't I have emotions when someone gets lynched before I'm ready for them to be lynched?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, since it was a perfectly good hammer. You should be saying that Ray is probably flipping scum and talking about what happens in the unlikely case he doesn't. That's how town acts and that's how you act as town.

Did I seem really confident in Ray being scum?
No?

That's because I wasn't.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, since it was a perfectly good hammer. You should be saying that Ray is probably flipping scum and talking about what happens in the unlikely case he doesn't. That's how town acts and that's how you act as town.

A perfectly good hammer that shut off discussion with someone I know very well and can usually read pretty well, and also someone who I enjoy playing with quite a bit. It was a perfectly good hammer to you because Ray was a strong scumread and you generally don't reanalyze much. I don't play that way.

[Nachomamma8]

You stated you were. Taking it back now is just an excuse.

Please quote.

[Nachomamma8]

You stated you were. Taking it back now is just an excuse.

Please quote.

Please please please please please quote.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

Vote: RayFrost

Are you feeling better about pisskop?

A little. Not much.

man, if I was super confident on RayFrost, I probably wouldn't have another scum suspect, would I?

[Nachomamma8]

Discussion? What discussion? There was nothing going on, only people bringing up names they'd like to lynch.

You don't play that way? Please. You get scumreads early and you strongarm them to death. You play

just like me

.

You know what else you don't do as town? You don't try to overly defend like you're doing right now.

Discussion is something that can always be created when people talk. In this particular situation, discussion was going to happen when Ray reacted to me flipping on my townread on him and being a okay lynching him.

I do strong arm reads. I do get lost in tunnel fever. I don't ignore my scumreads as they're going down and it's a very rare day when I'm okay with a quickhammer.

That's just blatantly wrong, but I'm not sure you know that.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

Vote: RayFrost

Are you feeling better about pisskop?

A little. Not much.

man, if I was super confident on RayFrost, I probably wouldn't have another scum suspect, would I?

It seems you missed this.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

This doesn't read "I'm very confident ray frost is scum".

[Nachomamma8]

Can't find it, Wisdom?
I had a feeling you wouldn't be able to.

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't miss anything. I don't care about how many scumreads you have.

You stated you're okay with his lynch, therefore as town you would be acting like you act when you are okay with lynches.

And since we're there, it's rare for you to take this long without being confident in a lynch. So yeah.

You really don't know anything about my meta, do you?

[Nachomamma8]

Can't find it, Wisdom?
I had a feeling you wouldn't be able to.

That's cute, you can't convince me so the only alternative is to try and discredit me.
As town you would be trying to knock some sense onto me.

wisdom what do you think I am currently doing

[Nachomamma8]

do you think, that if I was scum in this specific situation, that I would start playing this game and interacting with you and attempt to change your read on me in twilight? or would I shut the fuck up and kill you?

[Nachomamma8]

Yup, I don't. That's why I've read you correctly in like 12 games.

Welcome to a misread. It seems to be a common trend lately.

[Nachomamma8]

wisdom what do you think I am currently doing

Trying to defend yourself and discredit me.
Your intention isn't to try and help me understand why you aren't scum. You are focusing on technicalities and on how to better twist what I am saying so that my arguments aren't strong enough to convince the others.

What technicalities am I focusing on?

The difference between me being fine with a lynch and me having a strong suspect and wanting to lynch one is a big, big difference. When I say, "hey let's lynch this player", I don't mean "let's make him dead now": if I mean the latter, I make it ridiculously clear. A lot of my scumhunting is reactive, which is why I push so hard: push hard, get a reaction, analyze the reaction. Quick hammering robs me of the ability to analyze the reaction. If you don't understand this about me, then you don't understand a good portion of my town play.

Is it the "I actually wasn't confident about Ray scum" technicality? Because if that's the case, then it's not a technicality and actually sort of important, considering you said that I only be focusing on finding other scum in the unlikely event Ray isn't scum, which sort of implies I have confidence in the lynch, doesn't it?

[Nachomamma8]

Do you remember my toniest moment in Olympian, namely when I got really indignant about Mala-town and sent you into a fervor? Do you know why I was able to be as snarky and passionate about defending her there as I was here? Because you were wrong and I knew you were wrong and I thought your reasons sucked. Do you see how I'm behaving exactly the same way right now? Do you know why? Because you are wrong, I know you are wrong, and your reasons suck.

[Nachomamma8]

Its rather perturbing that these two games will ruin my reputation.

But, Killing you seems to have been a plus, Ray.

I still like Wisdom/hana lynches.

You are a very solid player. You need to curb a small bit of your erratic tendencies so that you don't take majority decisions into your own hands without allowing the majority to weigh in. Stop quick hammering.

[Nachomamma8]

Not to mention, interacting with me is also useful in getting the rest of the town townread him. Which appears to be working too.

It was useful in getting Ray to townread me. Unfortunately, he's dead and there's no reason for me to manipulate him as scum.

Ffery has an implied leaning townread of me, but according to you she's dying so it also seems dumb to manipulate her.

But maybe I have underestimated the benefits of having a dead QT that's on your side?

[Nachomamma8]

Pisskop thought I was town before this exchange.
Bjc and I agreed on pisskop lynch earlier.

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom, do you see the theme in these arguments you're making?

[Nachomamma8]

Nope
To be fair, I wasn't expecting you to come up with the correct answer.

[Nachomamma8]

I want Sakura to post.

[Nachomamma8]

Essentially: I need Sakura to post because I'm getting paranoid of the slot.

The nightkill sort of screams pisskop scum, though.

[Nachomamma8]

How so?

Do you think you would make that kill as scum? Why?

[Nachomamma8]

It's either VT and goon or mafia roleblocker and doctor.

Either our doc has been quiet or it's VT and goon.

And do you really kill bjc for doc after he drops a not-doc tell right before nightfall?

[Nachomamma8]

I doubt Sakura would make the kill because she respects ffery and might shoot ffery, plus ffery correctly suspects her. She could shoot you or me and likely leverage one of us against the other; I haven't showed many signs of being willing to vote you and I'm also a pretty proficient expert in not getting lynched because of shitty tunnels, but you dying during the night after yesterday means that I look significantly worse and you're not around to flip flop and tunnel her.

[Nachomamma8]

What does it matter what I would do? Answer what I asked instead

pedit: that's not a not-doc tell. For some, that might even be a doc tell.

if it's a doc tell for them, then they're idiots.
it shows he's trying to figure out the setup, which is something he would already know if he was doc
you don't expect newbies to drop fake VT tells

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: pisskop

[Nachomamma8]

Except he posted that out of nowhere RIGHT AFTER THE LYNCH HAPPENED.

Trying to figure out the setup at such a moment? Really? He was obviously WIFOMING the scum, and the scum took the bait.

you haven't explained how what he did was a doc tell

[Nachomamma8]

all you've explained is that you're comically bad at PR hunting when scum

[Nachomamma8]

:/ Are you trying to imply Im the only one here who would kill bjc? I just told yoy that Ff was my expectation. You keep your unbackable theories on my logic out of this.

This a nasty move from you. You would do well to note I care more about controlling the dayphase than prs as scum.

pedit

vote: nacho

his excuse is my.inexperience? cmon.

i'm guessing you probably didn't shoot him because pr
i'm guessing you shot him because "universal town"

[Nachomamma8]

ffery do you know me to care about cred? You'll follow me eventually. Everyone else is town. Nacho is scum.

You're still wrong, Wisdom.

[Nachomamma8]

What amazing reasons have you thought up of for pisskop-town? TierShift defending Rob?

[Nachomamma8]

And why can't you reanalyze the new situation with new information?
(because you're tunneling. why do I think you get lost in these tunnels? because you don't regret it enough when you mislynch someone. mislynching someone doesn't significantly factor into your "I can read them" factor. when you're misreading me this unbelievably hard, well. you probably can't read me.)

[Nachomamma8]

thats not what you just just implied, nacho. why are you changing your story?

oh this is exciting

[Nachomamma8]

please quote for me where i said the kill was because you were inexperienced

[Nachomamma8]

please quote for me where i said the kill was because you were inexperienced

[Nachomamma8]

Eh, I've only misread you like 2 times in 14 games so

you never correctly read me as scum and gotten me lynched as a result

[Nachomamma8]

please quote for me where i said the kill was because you were inexperienced

[Nachomamma8]

analyzing the nk. and lynching off it. real classy.

do you think this is why I'm voting you?

[Nachomamma8]

because if so, you've missed all of my play this game and i'm extremely disappointed in you

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, you assumed bjc was killed over doc pr.

nope, that was wisdom's assumption
please do try again to put words in my mouth

[Nachomamma8]

actually, don't do that
hide behind wisdom tunneling on me
it's honestly your only hope at this point

[Nachomamma8]

I doubt Sakura would make the kill because she respects ffery and might shoot ffery, plus ffery correctly suspects her. She could shoot you or me and likely leverage one of us against the other; I haven't showed many signs of being willing to vote you and I'm also a pretty proficient expert in not getting lynched because of shitty tunnels, but you dying during the night after yesterday means that I look significantly worse and you're not around to flip flop and tunnel her.

Does this argument say that Sakura is too experienced to shoot bjc? Because I certainly didn't use that word anywhere. Instead, it points out how she has significant meta threats elsewhere.

[Nachomamma8]

so you think sakura as scum would have shot bjc last night, in other words

[Nachomamma8]

Can we PLEASE kill 'kop tomorrow?

i'm sure bjc wasn't willing to lynch pisskop
i'm sure of it

[Nachomamma8]

unless by "kill" he meant "keep on a pedestal as the towniest town who ever lived".
which is plausible in Wisdom's tunnelworld, I suppose.

[Nachomamma8]

That was post-hammer. If he was wifoming with scum about the setup, "scumreading" kop could also be wifom.

[Nachomamma8]

What's the deal with 'Frost doe? Is this vote because he's quiet? Or do you think he just parked his vote on his buddy early and coasted through the previous day?

I currently feel he's a less horrible lynch than alternatives proposed.

Then join me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: pisskop

[Nachomamma8]

It should be noted that pisskop is always scummy in my eyes, so I'm willing to wagon him too if the town sheeps Nacho's vote.

[Nachomamma8]

What questions Hayate? I'm sure most of them were already addressed.

bjc, why is pisskop scum? And what are your feelings on Sakura at the moment?

And I know that you've given some reasons why Tier was scum in your ISO, but if you could make that argument too that would be great. I'm waiting for a compelling case on that slot that I'm just not seeing.

Literally everything pisskop ever posts comes across as scum to me.

As for Tier, like you said I've posted on him before. If you don't find it compelling... That's fine for me, because at this point in day one I'm pretty much down to 'kop, TS, and ED.

[Nachomamma8]

Ugh, pisskop is still alive.

[Nachomamma8]

unvote; vote: pisskop

Screw it. fferyllt, mind hammering? Or should I switch to Tier?

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, kill it with fire.

Is it just me or you want to kill everything with fire.

I want to kill TS, ED, or pisskop.... fire may or may not be involved.

[Nachomamma8]

i'm sure that one part where he goes against his established reads for one post for absolutely no reason is the part that is his true belief and the rest is wifom

[Nachomamma8]

and you think sakura would see that one quote and go "oh, bjc is a threat, he's been in my corner all game and he's wanted pisskop dead all game but that one quote means he doesn't hold these beliefs at all and is a threat". because i don't.

[Nachomamma8]

and i guess i don't because i have the privilege of residing outside the doors to Wisdom's tunnel mansion

[Nachomamma8]

Reads change, and pisskop was pretty town around that time, so..

reads change in a split second for absolutely no reason and then they change for one post before you start WIFOMing the opposite read?
nope

[Nachomamma8]

WASTIN' AWAY HERE IN WISDOM'S TUNNELVILLE
WAITIN' FOR HIM TO SEE THAT I'M TOWN (THAT I'M TOWN THAT I'M TOWN THAT I'M TOWN)
SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT THERE'S A LYNCHEE TO BLAME
BUT I KNOW
THAT IT'S ALL WISDOM'S FAULT

[Nachomamma8]

Reads change, and pisskop was pretty town around that time, so..

reads change in a split second for absolutely no reason and then they change for one post before you start WIFOMing the opposite read?
nope

Yup actually
"Can we just kill kop tomorrow" in twilight is an excellent way of making scum not kill him

and you think sakura would see that and immediately assume that's what his thought process was
because you're in tunnelville and don't see that most people don't see that way

[Nachomamma8]

and you think sakura would see that one quote and go "oh, bjc is a threat, he's been in my corner all game and he's wanted pisskop dead all game but that one quote means he doesn't hold these beliefs at all and is a threat". because i don't.

Nope
You probably missed who I meant when I asked who would want bjc dead

sorry, who would want bjc dead, then

[Nachomamma8]

dunno
I cant think of anyone who would want someone who wants to lynch Nacho and not pisskop dead

wait you think i would think that bjc was wifoming his read?

[Nachomamma8]

Hi guys, I hate you all for hammering Ray while i was out and the day ended before I could even post anything =/
In any case I'm here now and I'm willing to answer any questions, also glad Wisdom has a head unlike his predecessor, and I still think pisskop's scum, Nacho still alive is making me paranoid, and the bjc kill is like wtf.

wisdom

had

a head
currently he's lost in tunnelville