Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[Wisdom]

hai
What do I need to know?

[Wisdom]

nope, not scum.

[Wisdom]

Nacho thinks it's pisskop?
Who do you think it is?

[Wisdom]

Finished reading.

It has been clear to me since like page 20 or less that the remaining scum is either RayFrost or Rob/pisskop. That feeling didn't change at any point during my read.

First things first: ffery and Sakura are undoubtedly town, both because of their obvtown predecessors and their own play (though mainly the former. I'm not sure if I would allow myself to easily townread ffery or Sakura no matter how town they would be). In ffery's case it's also because of TierShift's early strong townread on ika.
bjc is also strong town. I liked his behavior when he was at L-1 during D1, I liked his play, and TierShift's heavy tunneling on him also makes it highly unlikely that they're buddies.
Nacho.. I always townread him by default and this is the case in this game too. I would not be completely surprised if he turned out to be the buddy, but I don't think so, nor do I want to think so at the moment.

Which leaves the two I mentioned.
Rob was a newbie who practically posted nothing and ended up getting replaced. pisskop is a guy who spams and most of the time I didn't bother to understand what he was posting. TierShift fought against Rob's lynch, and while it could be argued they could be buddies, I more felt he was WKing him, going for the towncred if the lynch went through. I could be wrong on that though. He also had plenty of interactions with pisskop.

RayFrost.. well to be honest here, I always scumread RayFrost. I don't like his playstyle, as I always feel that much blah blah equals manipulation. Many of his walls I didn't bother reading, but I did notice that at crucial times around the deadline or L-1 wagons he was silent or was not trying to get who he was voting lynched. I think I recall him trying to raise suspicion on emeraldemon while voting TierShift. Sure, he ended up being on TierShift's wagon in the end, but he didn't have much choice seeing as how the flashwagon happened. His pisskop defence also feels like WKing.

----

@ffery
I'd like you to point out posts of pisskop where you spotted town motivation and felt that he isn't scum or he isn't TierShift's buddy. Admittedly I didn't read much of his posts as his posting style was tiring me. If you did this already, quote where you did please.

@Sakura/Nacho/whoever townreads RayFrost
Why is RayFrost town?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RayFrost

[Wisdom]

2/2 if you are town, and 2/2 if you are scum. I read you correctly in 1305 and incorrectly in 1425.

[Wisdom]

ffery I really don't think Rob's posts can give town feelings in any way; he was just prod dodging. Not sure where you're seeing lost-town. Why not lost-scum?
The VT claim is null. I said the same when a scum claimed VT in a JK9 game (where it's even more important for scum not to get lynched D1), and I fought against his lynch based on that, but he was still scum. There are scum who claim PRs to draw counterclaims and others who don't.
I could buy the real time quick posting point, as there are many people (especialy newbies) who can't do it as scum, but it's not such a strong towntell either. There are certainly people who can post like that as scum, I know I can, so you're just underestimating him.

The only reasons I could find him town is the WKing from TierShift and RayFrost.

[Wisdom]

In any case, I believe that if we lynch {RayFrost, pisskop, Nacho} in any order we win the game. As long as we don't get sidetracked with Sakura or bjc, who are both town and should be left alone.

[Wisdom]

Why is it Sakura, pisskop? And how was AbboTT not obvtown?

[Wisdom]

I was actually not townreading him at first, but after some point I thought he obvtowned the slot. I'll read back later to find exactly where.

[Wisdom]

In any case, I believe that if we lynch {RayFrost, pisskop, Nacho} in any order we win the game. As long as we don't get sidetracked with Sakura or bjc, who are both town and should be left alone.

This plan. We should follow it.

So vote Ray with me?

[Wisdom]

And I'm not going to. I said what I didn't like. I'm not going to go through the effort of reading walls when we have 3 lynches to use.

That reminds me I should go find where AbboTT obvtowned

[Wisdom]

How about we take pisskop out of Wisdom's proposed plan and substitute Sakura into it? We can start with her, then progress to RF, then Nacho/player three.

How about no

[Wisdom]

I'm sorry if you feel bad about it, and I would maybe think it through more if we were in a more critical state like lylo or something, but it's not going to happen when we have 3 lynches available. If you are town and I'm wrong, oh well.

[Wisdom]

I don't see you offering any alternative. I at least care about lynching a bunch of people hoping I have the second scum in them. What's your plan for getting the second scum?

[Wisdom]

Wisedom wont present a case, so of course he must be right?

Your point being? I never make cases.

[Wisdom]

And we're not going to lynch Sakura, no matter what you do. We're lynching RayFrost and you.

[Wisdom]

but the way tier interacted around abott and abott's play in general (given the shifty lynch) reads as scumtelly to me, sooooooooo yeah.

This is the only "explanation" you've given for why Sakura is scum.

Show me what was scummy about AboTT's play and the interactions with Tier that make you think they are buddies.

[Wisdom]

RayFrost is claiming he did. So I want him to show me.

[Wisdom]

abbott had NO interaction with tier.
abbotts case on nacho was built around an OMGUS I never saw nacho make.
Abbott's posts were full of fluff that was fairly feelgood.

None of these are even remotely scumtells, btw.

[Wisdom]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

Vote: RayFrost

Are you feeling better about pisskop?

[Wisdom]

No, it isn't. Why do you assume that scum will have no interactions? I always have plenty of interactions with my scumbuddies.

[Wisdom]

Are you missing the fact that he is supporting an emeraldemon lynch in that post?
You were at L-1, close to being lynched; it was relatively safe to vote Tier AND WK you at the same time.

To put it otherwise, reread what you quoted and tell me if you see any conviction in his post to get Tier lynched.

[Wisdom]

Drop the hammer please. There's no need for stalling.

[Wisdom]

Nacho is scum if Ray isnt

[Wisdom]

Also pisskop is off my list.

[Wisdom]

It wasn't bjc who hammered

[Wisdom]

ffery, agree Nacho's behavior post-hammer seems like scum-Nacho wanting to make pisskop seem scummy for the next lynch?

[Wisdom]

Because you need to avoid getting lynched?

[Wisdom]

Because you can use his hammer as an excuse.

[Wisdom]

Nacho don't be acting like you don't understand what I'm saying. You are trying to make his hammer appear like a scummy action. Being pissed about it is fake too, you were voting RayFrost and said you are fine with his lynch, therefore you have no right getting pissed about a hammer on him.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom if the game doesn't end with this lynch then ffs stop tunneling.

If the game doesn't end with this lynch I'm lynching Nacho.

[Wisdom]

Bullshit. Remember how I was "pissed" at people quickhammering Mara in Polygamist? That's the kind of "pissed" you are. Excuse to make your pisskop push easier tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

And look at the lack of me calling that hammer scummy in my posts.
It's really remarkable, isn't it?

That doesn't matter at all. Your post still makes people think "oh what a scummy hummer! pisskop might be scum!" which is your intention.

[Wisdom]

Yes, since it was a perfectly good hammer. You should be saying that Ray is probably flipping scum and talking about what happens in the unlikely case he doesn't. That's how town acts and that's how you act as town.

[Wisdom]

You stated you were. Taking it back now is just an excuse.

[Wisdom]

Discussion? What discussion? There was nothing going on, only people bringing up names they'd like to lynch.

You don't play that way? Please. You get scumreads early and you strongarm them to death. You play

just like me

.

You know what else you don't do as town? You don't try to overly defend like you're doing right now.

[Wisdom]

I'm down for RayFrost lynch actually.

[Wisdom]

We're never killing kop. He's town, and so is ffery and Sakura. Nacho is dying tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

I did not react that way upon catching up, and I am self declaring "town as fuck" in this game.

You are not Nacho.

[Wisdom]

I didn't miss anything. I don't care about how many scumreads you have.

You stated you're okay with his lynch, therefore as town you would be acting like you act when you are okay with lynches.

And since we're there, it's rare for you to take this long without being confident in a lynch. So yeah.

[Wisdom]

Can't find it, Wisdom?
I had a feeling you wouldn't be able to.

That's cute, you can't convince me so the only alternative is to try and discredit me.
As town you would be trying to knock some sense onto me.

[Wisdom]

Yup, I don't. That's why I've read you correctly in like 12 games.

[Wisdom]

wisdom what do you think I am currently doing

Trying to defend yourself and discredit me.
Your intention isn't to try and help me understand why you aren't scum. You are focusing on technicalities and on how to better twist what I am saying so that my arguments aren't strong enough to convince the others.

[Wisdom]

Listening to Wisdom is always wise. Towns lose when they don't, as proven by lots of games.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, you really need to have an answer to this:

do you think, that if I was scum in this specific situation, that I would start playing this game and interacting with you and attempt to change your read on me in twilight? or would I shut the fuck up and kill you?

Simple answer: he's going to kill you instead of me, since you are considered far more town, while there are people who still find me scummy for whatever reason.

[Wisdom]

Not to mention, interacting with me is also useful in getting the rest of the town townread him. Which appears to be working too.

[Wisdom]

pisskop and bjc also posted and clearly disagreed with me, so

[Wisdom]

The only reason you are being this snarky and sarcastic in treating my posts is because your intention is to get other people think I'm a tunneling idiot so that they don't listen to me.

pedit: It doesn't matter. You need to convince them further because I'm obviously going to try and get them to agree with me.

[Wisdom]

Yup! They all explain how you are scum!

Side note: ika is awesome as town. He pegged both of you so nicely.

[Wisdom]

wat

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Nacho

[Wisdom]

Weird kill. Maybe doc hunting/dodging?

[Wisdom]

How so?

[Wisdom]

What does it matter what I would do? Answer what I asked instead

pedit: that's not a not-doc tell. For some, that might even be a doc tell.

[Wisdom]

Nope ffery, I'm lazy. All that matters is the slot ain't scum.

[Wisdom]

Except he posted that out of nowhere RIGHT AFTER THE LYNCH HAPPENED.

Trying to figure out the setup at such a moment? Really? He was obviously WIFOMING the scum, and the scum took the bait.

[Wisdom]

That's funny because I've been pretty accurate at PR hunting as scum

Now let's please lynch Nacho people

[Wisdom]

ffery do you know me to care about cred? You'll follow me eventually. Everyone else is town. Nacho is scum.

[Wisdom]

That and his posting is pretty town, especially towards the end of yesterday

[Wisdom]

Eh, I've only misread you like 2 times in 14 games so

[Wisdom]

ffery is barely scumreading anyone, all she is doing is sitting there telling me not to tunnel. If I wasn't that sure the slot is town, I would be actually worrying about her. She's not a threat for Sakura.
She could shoot you or me? Scum would be stupid to do that, why shoot one of us instead of keeping us around to fight?
That's a very weak reason for why Sakura isn't scum. She still isn't, but all of this is weak.

[Wisdom]

Things are simple. bjc agreed with my lynchlist (Ray, Nacho, pisskop) but wanted to replace pisskop with Sakura.
What does this mean? bjc both wouldn't mind lynching Nacho and wouldn't support a pisskop lynch.
Now who could he want him dead because of these?

[Wisdom]

That was post-hammer. If he was wifoming with scum about the setup, "scumreading" kop could also be wifom.

[Wisdom]

How about we take pisskop out of Wisdom's proposed plan

and substitute Sakura into it? We can start with her, then progress to RF, then Nacho/player three.

Hey Nacho, look! This is after everything you are quoting and just before the hammer!

[Wisdom]

Reads change, and pisskop was pretty town around that time, so..

[Wisdom]

and you think sakura would see that one quote and go "oh, bjc is a threat, he's been in my corner all game and he's wanted pisskop dead all game but that one quote means he doesn't hold these beliefs at all and is a threat". because i don't.

Nope
You probably missed who I meant when I asked who would want bjc dead

[Wisdom]

Reads change, and pisskop was pretty town around that time, so..

reads change in a split second for absolutely no reason and then they change for one post before you start WIFOMing the opposite read?
nope

Yup actually
"Can we just kill kop tomorrow" in twilight is an excellent way of making scum not kill him

[Wisdom]

Why the fuck are you talking about Sakura

[Wisdom]

dunno
I cant think of anyone who would want someone who wants to lynch Nacho and not pisskop dead

[Wisdom]

also glad Wisdom has a head

VOTE: Sakura

[Wisdom]

There's no fucking way Sakura OF ALL PEOPLE compliments me on probably my most stubborn tunnel ever

[Wisdom]

Ah, you mean when I equally stubbornly tunneled on Ray. Got it.

[Wisdom]

i think pisskop's scum, but that would be too obvious of a NK if he is

Why?

[Wisdom]

PEd: Because bjc was tunneling on to pisskop all fricken game, and never wanted to lynch me at all so pisskop would take him out to get his way, that's why i find it to be too obvious if pisskop is scum.

How about we take pisskop out of Wisdom's proposed plan and substitute Sakura into it?

We can start with her

, then progress to RF, then Nacho/player three.

Yeah, never wanted to lynch you at all

[Wisdom]

So why did you say I have a head, Sakura? What did I do that you liked?

[Wisdom]

and you're still alive.

And that's a surprise? What scum would kill someone I am tunneling so hard on?

[Wisdom]

You lynched obvtown Ray yesterday

So you don't believe Nacho's claim that he put his vote on Ray only for pressure and he never wanted a quicklynch?

[Wisdom]

pisskop you're back to making little sense if any

[Wisdom]

PEd: Because your predecessor was tunneling on my slot and ignoring all my slot did, unlike your predecessor you do have your head on the right track there, and you opened other possibilities, iirc you had 3 scumspects yesterday, that's quite an improvement from your death tunneling.

lol
no, I had one suspect, RayFrost, I deathtunneled on him way more than I usually do and I flat out refused to do anything else.
And today I did the same for Nacho.
That's the play you're complimenting.

[Wisdom]

PEd2: Oh right, I forgot all about that (Nacho's pressure vote), but why would you want to pressure someone as far as D2, and why did D2 end so effing early?

Because I made people lynch RayFrost, of course.
But I know, "you don't remember" that either.

[Wisdom]

You're right, I didn't tunnel at all this game

[Wisdom]

Because what you're saying is silly. I've done nothing but tunneling.

[Wisdom]

Except I didn't.

Anyway, this is pointless

[Wisdom]

pisskop stop tunneling on nacho, you were right about sakura

[Wisdom]

Sorry but pisskop is town and you're not getting him lynched under my watch

[Wisdom]

How is he setting up lynches?

[Wisdom]

Or hes just town thinking that was not a town/town interaction

[Wisdom]

Again, why would they kill him?

[Wisdom]

lol

[Wisdom]

ffery do you recognize what this was?

[Wisdom]

She's scum dude

[Wisdom]

Nacho's being obvtowned by most people except you.

Wrong #1. Nacho was not obvtown by me, the exact opposite actually. Scum wouldn't kill someone who is pushed so heavily.

You would undoubtedly NK Nacho to get that out of the way, because everyone else (except me) is townreading you anyways.

Wrong #2. Nacho is not townreading pisskop. And again, he would undoubtedly leave Nacho alone given my tunnel on him.

Nice changing the facts there, Sakura.

[Wisdom]

Anyway, it's pretty obvious what Sakura is planning to do.

[Wisdom]

he caught scum on D1

How did he catch scum exactly?

[Wisdom]

Anyway, it's pretty obvious what Sakura is planning to do.

[Wisdom]

You said everyone else except you is townreading pisskop. That's bullshit because Nacho is not. How did I twist anything?

[Wisdom]

Yeah, my bad. Nvm

[Wisdom]

You're still not answering - why would pisskop kill Nacho when I was tunneling on Nacho that hard and after it became evident from the Ray lynch that I can make people sheep me?

[Wisdom]

You were only hoping, yet you accuse Nacho of being still alive?

[Wisdom]

Accusing Nacho of being still alive means that he was an obvious NK yet he didn't die. However as I explained he is far from obvious NK given my tunnel on him. So?

pedit: Yeah sure, your plan. You're going to do it anyway, fakeclaim now than later

[Wisdom]

3) Sakura is crumbing doc because all scum fakeclaim doc in the setup with only cop

zzz

[Wisdom]

ok
So listen guys

If Sakura is real doc, there is a roleblocker. Which means Sakura is useless and we lose nothing by lynching her.
If Sakura is fakeclaiming, she is scum.

Therefore, we lynch Sakura.

[Wisdom]

yes

[Wisdom]

That's what I was telling you when I was fakeclaiming doc

[Wisdom]

Sakura is way more frustrated when she self-votes as town.

[Wisdom]

but Do not like how he townreads me for quicklynching Ray.

I really doubt scum would hammer right after I said "drop the hammer". Not to mention it attracts attention, something that you wouldn't want especially given how Nacho was scumreading you.

[Wisdom]

Guys let's lynch sakura already

[Wisdom]

and dodging the prod
ffery, can we vote pisskop now?

I can buy you being blind about sakura being scum.
You seriously don't see that pisskop is town?

[Wisdom]

ffery, i would also point you as the reasonable one in this situation and i don't want a me-wisdom-pisskop lylo to occur because it's almost certainly a loss
don't let it happen

If that occurs it will certainly be a loss.. for you. Although I believe you'll keep ffery instead of me.

[Wisdom]

Also I love how Wisdom dodged my question since yesterday and pretends it never happened.

What question? Why you are scum? Didn't I already explain why?

[Wisdom]

I almost want to change back to Nacho, something feels genuine about sakura's latest posts

[Wisdom]

It can be faked though

[Wisdom]

Bullshit. He's obviously town.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: nacho

[Wisdom]

I take it you mean it's either Sakura or Nacho? Because there's just one scum left.

[Wisdom]

Both look scummy to me. I can't buy Nacho doesn't see you are town. But then I can't buy Sakura was praising me for tunneling. Sakura has replaced out of games because of my tunneling and now she tells me I have a head.

Whatever. Let's lynch them both.

[Wisdom]

ffery and pisskop, can we just lynch Nacho and Sakura and be done with this? You can choose the order, I don't mind.

[Wisdom]

loud disturbing things

hi!

[Wisdom]

How was it to frame you? bjc wanted to remove you from the lynchpile and replace you with Sakura.

[Wisdom]

boring

[Wisdom]

Because you are

VOTE: pisskop btw

[Wisdom]

VOTE: sakura

[Wisdom]

maybe

[Wisdom]

gg!
Sorry people I tunneled on!

[Wisdom]

Nacho just townreads whoever I suspect like usual

[Wisdom]

Btw Wisdom just because you scumread me every game and get lucky once, doesn't mean you know how to read me, just saying.

Eh, I think I've kinda figured out the difference now.

[Wisdom]

I def can't read RayFrost though, and I imagine I'll always keep scumreading him. He just sounds manipulative.

[Wisdom]

If AbboTT had remained in the game I don't think I'd ever change my read on him. Something in his posts really made me think he is town. Sakura however.. is Sakura, so I did.