Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[emeraldemon]

/confirm

[emeraldemon]

Hi team! I've played one game of mafia before ( I guess that's what the 1 beside my name means?), it's here if you want to read it.

VOTE: AbboTT

[emeraldemon]

unvote; vote: AbboTT

??

[emeraldemon]

Why did you move your vote to abbott?

[emeraldemon]

Why did you move your vote to abbott?

why do you care is the bigger question here?

Really? You don't care?

His first vote might have been random, hard to say, but switching votes definitely isn't.

[emeraldemon]

@ika
So you want to wait a few days to start scumhunting? Maybe scum will confess on their own?

To answer your question, no, I don't think people usually randomly switch votes in RVS. I don't think bjc's vote was random, I think he had a reason. I wanted to hear from him what that reason was. The fact that you're intercepting and trying to stop me from asking a very reasonable question makes me suspicious of you. Maybe you'd rather keep the fluff rolling as long as
possible.

[emeraldemon]

VOTE: ika

How's that for not random?

[emeraldemon]

Check out this interaction:

#29 I ask bjc about his vote
#30 ika: "Why do you care?"
#31 ika: "nacho and bjc are probable towns"
#37 I vote ika
#38 bjc: "WTF is this? vote emeraldemon"
#42 ika: (about bjc) "he also already justified his reasoning. he sparked discussion. we are now following up on it."

Are these guys best friends or what?

Also
#41 "Who are you addressing here?" How is it unclear? The post came directly after yours and is talking about what you are talking about. It is directed to you.
#42 ika agrees with bjc some more "this i would like to hear as well. it is surprisingly vauge" even though it wasn't vague at all.
#52 ika: "Right now in early stage i find that votes are nothing more then conversation pieces" Followed by some utterly generic questions.

Sorry, I'm trying not to tunnel here, but you two look like scum buddies to me.

@nacho
What makes you think these guys are town?

[emeraldemon]

TierShift replaces Crown!

Haha I hope so

[emeraldemon]

edit: it was a question mark a second ago.

---

It was a typo

[emeraldemon]

Hey so you wanted to see my town game right? Let's do this thing

So one thing makes me hesitate about bjc / ika scumteam: 16 it would surprise me a little for a scum to draw attention to a partner like this in the first post.

Other than that though, pretty much everything from them has felt scumteam.

The only other person who's posted anything is Abbott, but unfortunately it's all pretty null. Need more stuff from everyone.

[emeraldemon]

@bjc
I made a long post about why I voted ika (59), did you read it?
Yes, Robb W needs to come out and post.

@tiershift
Man, I really hope you are town this game. So you don't think ika and bjc are buddying?

[emeraldemon]

Lots of stuff I missed, trying to sort through it all now. But first things first

@ika:

52 "As you play more games, you will understand"
62 "i may not be ic here or se, but i do have a fair amount of experience from my home site i would say."
87 "i am quite expeinced and want to help the new players"
113 "its odd playing a newbie game, i feel like im reading all the noobs as scums becasue they are noobs."
152 "im not a newbie and have plenty of experince playing."

Stop. Telling me you are super experienced mafia veteran will not convince me of anything. It's probably not scummy, unless you are trying to use it to get others to sheep you, but it's definitely not making me trust you more. Honestly it just makes you sound insecure.

[emeraldemon]

The thing about ika comes down to this: is the carelessness a town tell? Moving votes around, semi-random reads thrown about. It doesn't feel careful the way you might expect scum to be careful. But maybe he's just looking for a lynch to get behind without putting too much effort in. No honest scumhunting feel either. Maybe too glib?
@nacho
I didn't see any finished games from ika on this site. Do you know his meta from somewhere else?

bjc's vote and explanation in 104 is weaksauce on waffles. Also his trajectory on ika rings false to me: in 60 he says he's wary (after I accuse him of buddying), 84 says "I can't say he's confirmed townie" which means nothing. In 108 answering ika's question about strongest townread he says "Ugh, probably ika. lol." Where is this coming from?

I dunno, but for now it's enough to
VOTE: bjc

@RayFrost
I'd like to hear your opinion about bjc please.

[emeraldemon]

also if you could answer the questions i posted

Don't pretend you're helping town by breaking "what are your reads?" into four questions. My favorite playstyle is winning. If you are scum I will find out and lynch you.

[emeraldemon]

@abbott

why is bjc townish? What about the vote in 104 and the stuff I said in 165?

[emeraldemon]

Sorry for being gone so long, signing up for three games simultaneously was a mistake but I'm still going to try to win this thing.

I know this isn't the most useful, but here's what I was thinking as I caught up:

176: I don't like the way ika just throws shit around. Bleh... could be town though

182: "I have had a bad expeince with ppl makign cases and have them flipping towns and then follow them again." I can deal with the terrible spelling and grammar (although I wish I didn't have to), but I have no fucking idea what you're trying to say here.

193: this sounds a lot like the case I made earlier, except with quote walls.

225 & 227: I agree, except about ika.

246: So saying anything with confidence is a scumtell?

256: Hard to put my finger on, but bjc sounds so submissive all the time, feels bad to me.

257: "if i die due to nk. Plz look into nacho/teirshift as scums" wtf is this? Why would anyone nk you? Don't like.

282: Whaaat? No.

355: Abbott never quite makes my radar ping either way. Everything he does seems reasonable, but kinda bland or something.

376: "if i end up dying" This again. Someone who knows what's up, is constantly saying you'll get night-killed a scum tell? Cause I'm thinking it is.

386: Oh man, I went from town vibes to scum partner. That's what I get for being AFK I guess.


UP TO DATE READS

TOWN
Nachomamma - I agree with almost every post from him that isn't about ika
lynch me bro - newbtown all the way
RayFrost - I like your ability to write in complete paragraphs
Abbott - null still
tiershift - aggressively townreading me, not sure if this is a test
ika - badfeels
bjc - probably scum
Rob W - The real test will be if we get him to L-1
SCUM

bjc and Rob are tied for last, I am fine with lynching either. I will put some more thoughtful posts together in a bit.

[emeraldemon]

I am here and building a big post about bjc now. In the meantime I wanted to answer ika real quick.

386: Oh man, I went from town vibes to scum partner. That's what I get for being AFK I guess.

Im slightly confused what you mean by that elaborate please?

In 227 Nacho said "I kind of like emerald but nothing too definitive", but by 386 he says "emerald wagon (funny, because that's who I think is his scum partner)". AFK = Away From Keyboard. That's all, just an offhand remark.

Regarding typos and such: I have to accept that some of the things I don't like about your posts are completely superficial and not scum-aligned. I will try to keep this in mind, but reading posts with misspellings still pains me.

[emeraldemon]

VOTE: Rob W

@bjc
1) Could you summarize your read on Abbott for me? Why do you think he is scum?

2) In the early game your votes seemed to go wherever other people voted, in particular you followed ika's vote multiple times. What was your thinking during that phase? What do you think about ika now?

[emeraldemon]

@ika why do you want exactly three scum reads? Sounds like an artificial line.

[emeraldemon]

The bjc Story

39: Way back on page 2 I thought ika and bjc were buddying, and his early vote on me was pretty confusing. Looking back it's still hard for me to understand the motivation behind that vote. He tries to explain the vote in 84, but all he can say is "it struck me as something awful", but then clarifies that the substance wasn't awful.

For a while afterwards he seems to just follow around whatever vote is convenient.

86: Tiershift says to vote nacho, so bjc votes nacho.
104: ika unvotes nacho and votes abbott, so bjc unvotes nacho and votes abbott. Multiple people call him out for sheeping.
192: ika votes LMB, so bjc votes LMB. LMB was voting bjc at this time.

I don't think this is good scumhunting, but it's also hard for me to imagine continuing to play this way if ika and bjc are scum partners. Also I could be wrong about this but I think scum tend to be a bit more sticky in their reads, hesitant to put down a solid read, but pushing or tunneling on one person once they've voted. I don't like these votes, but on review I don't think it's a convincing scum case.

Around page 10 bjc's play starts to shift, he moves his vote around less and pushes back on nacho when nacho tries to get bjc to vote Rob W (see 256). On first readthrough I didn't like 256, but it seems OK to me now.

355 Abbott puts bjc at L-1 and you can tell bjc feels the pressure, the tone in 356 and especially 365 is clearly frustrated. I think that's pretty null either way, but there is something townish about 365.

369 I don't really like this, feels like panic, and pushing the next easiest wagon, but it's mitigated by the fact that he leaves his vote on me and doesn't vote Rob here.

388, 435: the fighting between tiershift and bjc doesn't tell me anything. Well, it might tell me something about tiershift, but that's gonna have to be a different ISO.

When I sat down to write this post I intended to write "Why bjc is scum". But I've come away completely unconvinced. I can't call him a townread yet, and I want to see and hear more, but I think my vote was in the wrong place.

@ika
These reads will probably change soon b/c I'm still working on some other things, but so you can finish your "activity":

TOWN
Nachomamma
lynch me bro

RayFrost
bjc
Abbott

ika
tiershift
Rob W
SCUM

[emeraldemon]

Why the fuck was there exactly zero response to me laying out a big post about bjc and changing my reads? It doesn't sit well with me at all, I get that most of the players are lurking right now, but why didn't bjc OR ika OR tiershift say anything?

Why should I post shit if it's gonna be ignored?

ika you blew off my actual analysis so that you could engage in another pointless time-wasting game. Day ends soon. Stop the BS.

Rayfrost don't start with me, I am pissed off at you also. You really think what we need is more games with 4 days to lynch?

bjc, you have zero excuse for ignoring my post, you just continue to say "ED is still scummy" without even trying. Was that whole thing scum theater to throw you off your game? Or are you just being lazy? Have your reads changed at all in the last week?

I will come back later and try to post more productively, but I am too annoyed to be helpful right now.

[emeraldemon]

And tiershift you're the worst, I dropped you to second scummiest player on my list, said the wagon you're on isn't legit, and you just breeze right by. You've been super townreading me all game, why the fuck would ignore what I have to say? Is it because you're scum looking for help to push?

[emeraldemon]

Can you think of a situation where a town player might not want to get lynched?

[emeraldemon]

Oh and I didn't drop to second scummiest, I was already there.

Nope:

TOWN
Nachomamma - I agree with almost every post from him that isn't about ika
lynch me bro - newbtown all the way
RayFrost - I like your ability to write in complete paragraphs
Abbott - null still
tiershift - aggressively townreading me, not sure if this is a test
ika - badfeels
bjc - probably scum
Rob W - The real test will be if we get him to L-1
SCUM

Look, it's totally fair to call me out for lurking, I have been a shitty town player this game, and the fact that all of our experienced players are getting prodded / replaced has made this kind of a shitty game (plus the one intentional newbie lurker). But if you're really town, reread what I wrote and think about it. I think you're probably wrong about bjc.

[emeraldemon]

Right, I was saying that between 407 and 478 you dropped from 4th to 2nd. It doesn't matter now.

I'm going off of 505 because it's the last time you stated your case completely I think. These are the things I think are bugging you.
(1) sheeping: bjc sheeped hard in the early game, everyone knows it and he admits it. He played the early game very casually. But there is a town motivation for pushing wagons to generate content. It's not as good as actual pressure, but it's something.
(2) pushing Rob W: I think you're a bit off on this, as I said, he never voted Rob W. Where's the sheeping there?
(3) "Survivalism": 365 and 369 are actually consistent with the behavior of a town PR I think. Not saying he is one and I definitely don't want to force an early claim (and that's why there shouldn't be an early intent to hammer), but certain types of town players get panicky when they are close to a lynch.

You and bjc have been fighting a lot, and honestly it's generating more heat than light. My advice for both of you would be this: Take a step back. Even if you're sure he's scum, look around for his scum partner. Don't get caught up in OMGUS.

[emeraldemon]

Well one of them (ED) jumped once he saw it wasn't going anywhere.

Come on let's get an ED flip; he doesn't even post much at all. I've been waiting for an answer to my questions for days now, and he's been here twice and neglected every question both times.

Sorry can you point out which questions were directed at me? I can't find them.

[emeraldemon]

So do you have any questions, or what?

[emeraldemon]

If Rob were town I would have expected at least some kind of explanation by now. The fact that he comes in when prodded and offers nothing feels antitown. Tiershift will know that we had a hardcore lurker in my last game (and I tried to get him lynched), but he actually responded to posts and said things relevant to the game, however useless and infrequent. The guy seems to be making it his explicit goal to avoid being replaced without posting above the bare minimum.

Even if he gets replaced, the truth is newbies tend to replace out of scum slots more than town slots I think.

[emeraldemon]

Well I don't think we're supposed to read or reference other ongoing games, so I can't really use that.

[emeraldemon]

Wow OK.

I'm here, I have real-life work to do today but I will be around to answer this thread.

So I'm at L-2, does anyone want to ask me anything? Or tell me why I'm scummy? Sakura, ika, bjc? The only question I've gotten so far is "Why Rob?"

We are running out of time, but I'd really rather not claim if I don't have to. is there any chance of a Rob W lynch today? Yes, Rob W could maybe just be lurking, but I've soured on the bjc lynch.

@tiershift did you read my last post directed at you? Any comments?

[emeraldemon]

I'm takling about 558

[emeraldemon]

I think a question directed generically to a group is less useful than a question to a specific individual.
1) People who don't want to answer can get away with it easier
2) My questions can be tailored to exactly what I want to know about that person

I'm trying hard to sort tiershift, which is why I'm asking him 1-on-1 questions. I'm also trying to get him to engage me and stop shouting about bjc, which I've already said I found unproductive. I wish I could get a strong read on him, he's leaning scum to me b/c I feel like he was trying hard to townread/defend me (not 100% scumtell given our history, but suspicious) and I would expect his reads to be more flexible if he were town.

But if you're here I have a question for you also: did you really get anything from that long analysis of the read lists? You concluded that tiershift was most scummy, then voted me, then voted bjc, then voted me again. What's going on?

[emeraldemon]

Just to clarify about the history thing:
My first game I was scum and tiershift townread me pretty hard which helped me win. I think he replaced into this game specifically (or at least partly) to play me again and see if he could sort me correctly this time.

[emeraldemon]

bjc and ika let me ask you, what do you think about tiershift's read on me and how it's progressed this game?

[emeraldemon]

also whats the trouble with terishift and sorting him? if you are having so much trouble why didnt you join me in voting him and give me momentum i need.

Fair enough.

VOTE: tiershift

Who's white-knighting who?

[emeraldemon]

Wait hold on. Why are we townreading sakura / abbott? I thought that slot was somewhere between null and scum.

@Sakura
Can you tell me what made you flip to ika scum?

Time is short, we're gonna have to lynch soonish. Post 670 from Tiershift actually felt townish to me, but maybe I am getting too caught up in it. I have always been OK with lynching Rob.

[emeraldemon]

I'm standing at hana-town, ika-town, nacho-kindatown, bjc-somewhatscummy, robw-diescumbutreplacesoidk, ed-leaningscum, tearshift-null.

You forgot Lynch Me Bro, btw.

[emeraldemon]

I don't really agree about Sakura being town, but I don't think we can deal with that right now. It looks like the only realistic lynches are Rob W or Tiershift, with an outside chance of bjc. In some ways Rob W + Tiershift scumteam makes sense, tiershift has been the most resistant to the Rob lynch.

Rob is probably going to get replaced with 48 hours left or something like that, his replacement will make a spurt of vaguely townish posts, and either we'll lynch him anyway or we won't. I feel like it'll be very difficult to get an accurate read on a completely new player in a day.

[emeraldemon]

Sakura I don't think your voting anyone right now, would you vote whoever you'd rather see lynched please?

[emeraldemon]

*you're

[emeraldemon]

Don't forget tiershift also replaced into a newbie slot, so presumably the statistics are the same.

[emeraldemon]

The question is, do wait for the replacement in case he claims PR?

[emeraldemon]

VOTE: Pisskop

[emeraldemon]

@ika
I can't tell if you're lazy or scum, but I'm hoping lazy. Let me quote for you the parts of the thread you should have read already:

Time is short, we're gonna have to lynch soonish. Post 670 from Tiershift actually felt townish to me, but maybe I am getting too caught up in it. I have always been OK with lynching Rob.

Rob is probably going to get replaced with 48 hours left or something like that, his replacement will make a spurt of vaguely townish posts, and either we'll lynch him anyway or we won't. I feel like it'll be very difficult to get an accurate read on a completely new player in a day.

The question is, do wait for the replacement in case he claims PR?

Claim.

nope lynch me.

Any questions?

[emeraldemon]

pisskop is about what I expected, trying hard to avoid lynch, nothing obviously scummy but not enough town to make me move my vote.

Sakura Hana in 827 gives me badfeels, like she is trying to emphasize how town she is in this obvtown townblock.

The idea that all the SE's and IC are mutually townreading each other makes me nervous, but if we're getting fooled I can't figure out which one it is.

Am I allowed to be happy that ika's getting replaced by someone with better spelling?

[emeraldemon]

His posts were kind of crazy and hard to follow. I didn't like his scumhunting, but I think that was maybe just playstyle clash. In the end he felt genuine mostly.

[emeraldemon]

I just want to say that the first game I ever read on this site was newbie 1436 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31510
and you were amazing as scum that game, I thought you were town the whole time I was reading.

So I am a little bit afraid of you now.

[emeraldemon]

I honestly think scum and town are going to behave simlarly in pisskop's situation. Both are going be somewhat AtE, both are going to throw suspicion around everywhere. I said before I didn't think I could read a whole new person in a day.

If Rob W really did replace out of all of his games that might make this one a little less suspicious. But honestly I think I'd still rather lynch him (rob/pisskop) than tiershift. Maybe I think I can sort tier tomorrow.

pedit
It was just the most recently finished newbie game when I found mafiascum.net

[emeraldemon]

You're following this game pretty closely right now, it looks like.

I've been trying to keep up with all of my games more, it's hard though. I really hope someday someone meta's me and reads all four of these games, b/c I'm getting chewed out in every single one

[emeraldemon]

@pisskoop
I haven't completely understood the thread of your argument. Who is scum and why?

[emeraldemon]

But I expect some people to weigh in on my claim that tier/hana have been avoiding direct confrontations.

They have not interacted, but Abbott was kinda lurking. There's a reason he replaced out. He didn't really interact with me either, so I don't feel like I can call that a scumtell.

[emeraldemon]

So are you saying you think tiershift + Sakura Hana is the scum? What about ika/fferylt and bjc?

[emeraldemon]

There's 2 days, 23 hours left on the counter as I type this. I think the only thing that's happened since 957 is that fferylt unvoted, so pisskop is at L-2. There are 3 people not voting and tiershift has I think said he would vote pisskop if necessary, so I don't think we're in danger of a no lynch. Might as well talk during the day.

bjc do you have any opinion about tiershift / sakura scumteam?

[emeraldemon]

I thought 827 was kinda scummy. (see 979).

[emeraldemon]

I just want to say that the first game I ever read on this site was newbie 1436 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31510
and you were amazing as scum that game, I thought you were town the whole time I was reading.

So I am a little bit afraid of you now.

I totally was right about ffery but Bert didnt follow suit
Should've won that one orz

I honestly thought notsci was scum while I was reading through.

[emeraldemon]

He's never not going to be like this in terms of the quality of his logic, but that doesn't make it so that we can't read him for sincerity / transparency tells. Which, if you were a transparency tell kind of person, you'd be able to do pretty easily off of his posting.

Maybe I am not that kind of person. Care to spell if out for me?

Also, I wanna believe that you're town, so help me help you. What do you want to know?

[emeraldemon]

Pisskop, when I was talking to you earlier about your scumreads you didn't mention me. Is this a "any wagon but mine" vote? You seemed suspicious of Sakura and tiershift and bjc and maybe fferylt, but you didn't say anything about me.

Getting to the other questions and my reads, will post again shortly.

[emeraldemon]

@fferylt
1073: Oh is Nacho good? Sorry nacho I will be afraid of you too now . Seriously though, my intention was only to express admiration, I still plan on sorting you just like everyone else. Regarding my finished game, I posted it in my first post in case anyone wants to read it, but honestly I have no idea how my town game is. What you're seeing here is me learning to actually town for the first time (and the other games I'm in now).

1101: So Sakura is the only one who's mentioned a townblock, and she's mentioned it twice (645 & 827). Nacho did say 729 that he thought all those people were town, so maybe that's the same thing. But why doesn't Sakura say "I think all these people are town"? Why is it nacho's townblock, and not her townblock? Is this some appeal to authority that I didn't get because I didn't know nacho is awesome at scumhunting (sorry again nacho)?

Combined with this, I never had a particular townread on abbott, and I don't really remember that from nacho and ray either, but I need to go back and reread. Maybe Abbott really was town and I wasn't paying attention.

Still need to at least respond to ray, ISO Ray for pisskop and think some about where I stand on everyone.

[emeraldemon]

Right, my bad. Strike that bit from the record.

[emeraldemon]

my townbloc

This is the part I'm trying to draw attention to. You are trying to make your own townblock. You did not describe yourself as part of nacho's townblock. What I got out of that post is "nacho thinks we're town, so you should too".

This is all about the possible intention behind one post, but that post felt bad to me and I stand by that.

[emeraldemon]

PEd. Because I think I know why Nacho's onto him, considering i've hydra'd with Nacho before and I've learned some of his scumhunting tactics, which are known as godly by most ppl on this site that know him.

I would never personally call nacho godly in his scumhunting, but I've known him for ages.

I forgot about this exchange. Adds to my feeling that Sakura is trying to use Nacho as an authority.

[emeraldemon]

I reread rayFrost, I still think he is probably town. His trajectory on ika feels natural to me and somewhat mirrors my own, thinking he was pretty scummy early and then slowly feeling better about him. (although ika/fferylt moved all the way to strong town for him, which hasn't happened for me). And just recently, it's hard to see the scum motivation behind defending pisskop when he's so close to lynch. The only way that would make sense to me would be if it was rayfrost / pisskop scumteam. But I have a hard time buying that also given how early ray hopped on the RobW wagon (2nd vote I think, 255) and how long he stayed there.

[emeraldemon]

Spoiler: Rayfrost

Seems town, see last post

Spoiler: fferylt

fferylt's recent questions and back-and-forth with me felt like she really wanted to sort me. I was on the fence about ika, but I'm gonna call this town for now. I'll have plenty of time to be paranoid about it tomorrow if I live that long.

Spoiler: LynchMeBro

LMB is probably getting too much of a free pass, but I'm still reading this as town AFK.

Spoiler: Sakura

If people say sheeping Nacho is her meta, I won't argue. I'm not gonna try to read a Sakura / Nacho game today. I wish I could ISO but the site is down.

Spoiler: bjc

Honestly a lot depends on whether 365 was a PR softclaim or slip. I don't know how to say that without risking outing him if he is PR, but saying "I'm not worried about getting mislynched, there's a reason I'm asking for intent to hammer" sounds like a fed-up PR. That's why my case about bjc before was so vague, I was trying to hint and see if he picked up and confirmed / denied. He didn't, which I suppose is the smartest play anyway. The long battle between bjc and tiershift made them both look bad to me. I talked a lot about him in past posts, I don't really think there's a strong case for bjc scum, but he hasn't played town enough for me to throw him in the town pile. The waffling between tiershift and I could be town, but it could be scum looking for an easy wagon.

Spoiler: nacho

I liked nacho early, but not hearing from him in so long makes me nervous. He says he still hasn't read pisskop, is he really just too busy? He hasn't changed his reads on anyone in a while I feel like, I really want to hear what he says about pisskop before I pass judgement here.

Spoiler: tiershift

This is another one I really need to ISO. The only person he's really stuck his neck out for is me, which makes me super nervous. But if he's scum, it almost seems like he wouldn't be buddying so explicitly. Apart from that, he's another one who hasn't updated reads much lately, he's been tunneling on bjc pretty much the whole game. The long battle between bjc and tiershift made them both look bad to me.

Spoiler: pisskop

I thought 386 made sense. I wasn't reading Rob W as null; compare LMB's lurking to Rob W's, LMB seems like town lurking, Rob W seems like scum lurking. Pisskop is all over the place, which makes it very hard for me to sympathize or feel like I understand his play. He thought ika was scum, then thought I was scucm, then changed his mind and said I was town, bjc was scum, came out with a claim of tiershift / Sakura scumteam. Now Ray says I am scummy and his vote is on me again. If I were scum in pisskop's shoes I would probably push on everything at once and see if I can get any momentum going, just like he's doing. I will say that his interactions with tiershift don't feel like scum theater, which is making me doubt the tiershift / pisskop pair. Would scum pisskop look for an elaborate association tell on Sakura and tiershift, especially if either of them was his scum partner? Add to this that I am townreading RayFrost and Fferylt, who are both calling pisskop town.

The three people who have been most suspicious to me this game have been tiershift, bjc, and Rob (now pisskop). But I'm having trouble seeing tiershift/bjc or tiershift/pisskop. pisskop/bjc is maybe, but not super likely. So now I'm thinking I've missed something, and maybe it really is tiershift / Sakura or bjc / nacho or something along those lines.

Spoiler: Overall Reads

TOWN
RayFrost
FFerylt
LMB
nacho
bjc
Sakura
tiershift
pisskop
SCUM

@pisskop
I am still waiting to hear why you hopped on my wagon.

@tiershift
Why have you been defending me all game? Everyone else seems to think I'm scummy, why are you townreading me?

[emeraldemon]

@pisskop
I am still waiting to hear why you hopped on my wagon.

info.

Well, do you have more info now? Your reads have been jumping around all crazy, and that makes it hard for me to follow your reasoning, which makes it hard for me to townread you. If you had complete control over the lynch, who would you lynch today?

[emeraldemon]

fferylt or hana if I had my way right now.
[...]
Hana's been looking for a reason to tie me a bowtie, and ika weirds me.

Neither of those things are scummy though, are they?

[emeraldemon]

@tiershift
It seems like you're scumreading pisskop, but your vote hasn't budged off of bjc. Why? Is bjc still scummier?

@fferylt
OK, so you are townreading nacho, pisskop, and maybe ray. What do you think about bjc? And tiershift?

[emeraldemon]

@Sakura
Sure, but if you were scum you might make sure the "key points from the thread" included why you were town.

Since you're here, you had some negative vibes from pisskop earlier, you said you didn't like his reaction to your fakehammer and e.g. 1045. What do you think about fferylt and rayfrost townreading him?

[emeraldemon]

I would vote tiershift, but I think I still prefer pisskop.

@pisskop
ffery's not getting lynched today so forget that for now. I know you're trying to save your own skin, give me your best "tiershift is scum" case.

[emeraldemon]

@pisskop
What I'm saying is that you could still convince me that you're more likely town than tiershift is, so might as well try. I assume ffery will at some point also. From my point of view the likely outcomes in the next two days are

(1) you get hammered
(2) someone convinces me that you're town (or tiershift is worse) and I vote/hammer tiershift instead.

Not saying no other outcomes are possible, but this is what feels the most likely to me.

[emeraldemon]

What if this day never ends because of constant replacing? I'm half expecting Nacho to replace out now.

[emeraldemon]

@Hayate Yagami
Your account is brand new, but you sound like someone with a lot of experience, maybe on this site specifically (referring to nacho's activity elsewhere for example). Is this an alt account or something? If you want to remain mysterious I can dig it, but I like to know where players are coming from.

Also your catchup post is really long, would you mind summarizing your bjc read please?

[emeraldemon]

996- Out of curiosity, do you feel like you've put a lot of effort into sorting Tier thus far? If so, how much more sorting do you think you'll need to do before you can give a valid conclusion.

I've put a lot of thought into it anyway, and the answer I get out is "probably scum". It's hard for me to argue with him for townreading me since in my mind all my posts are town, but that doesn't stop me from being suspicious about it, and specifically about him not responding to my scumreading of him, or him not being paranoid of me as scum when I just tricked him as scum last game. And in general his reads have felt suspiciously constant, pushing the same cases basically the whole day. Of course town can do this also, but I think maybe town is less worried about being self-consistent. And being fluid and open to new information is something that's hard for scum to fake I think, so they may compensate by tunneling more.

Unfortunately you could probably say the same thing about bjc's reads and nacho's, and they can't all three be scum. Nacho might have the best excuse if he's really too busy to keep up with the thread.

As for how much more sorting I need, I am still terrified of everyone and confident about nothing. Even my best townread (probably rayfrost right now) makes me paranoid, when I ask myself "could rayfrost be scum", the answer in my head is "definitely". There's a reason I'm asking pisskop for a case about tiershift (still waiting), both to help me sort pisskop better and to hear someone else's perspective on tier, even if I still think pisskop is scummy.

[emeraldemon]

while looking over his specific choice of wording I get all tingly.

What does this mean? tingly suspicious? tingly feel-good? Turned on?

[emeraldemon]

dogmeraldo

Truly, the nick I should have chosen. Offtopic, I picked emeraldemon as my nick to play the first age of empires online as a kid, I liked green and I thought it sounded intimidating , I've used it for pretty much every game / forum I've been on ever since, so I probably won't change now.

My guess is that you didn't like when i was explaining to the ED what that post meant, which I still don't know why he keeps ignoring the fact that I was just pointing relevant stuff to pisskop?

See 1142.

[emeraldemon]

How do you think that meshes with #608, where his attitude is suddenly the opposite: "Oh, lynch me, whatever?" In retrospect this feels kind of weird; ika pressures him to not act survivalistically, and thus instead he switches to the opposite?

Hmm... actually now that you mention it, it feels quite odd, when I came in bjc was already getting pressured anyhow and i just thought that if he was scum he would have self-hammered or claimed PR, what do you think about him wanting to get hammered instead of just ending the discussion himself right there? Maybe because ika was pressuring him and i was scumreading ika at the time (and im still on the null-scum realm for that slot, not in so much as TS or kop tho).

TS > kop interaction could be buddying tho.

I feel like you just claimed scum here.

@fferyllt
Sorry, could you explain what you see here?

[emeraldemon]

@fferllt

The hell? I explained it in 1209 and we've been going around ever since.

Ah, OK, makes a lot more sense now. For some reason I thought you saw some scumslip in Sakura's argument about bjc, or the TS-Kop buddying line, and was very confused about where you were going.

Do you think Sakura's emphasis on the replace-in statistics argument says anything about alignment? Do you think she would be more likely to make such an argument as scum (or town)?

[emeraldemon]

@rayFrost

If you guys could read transparency tells this would make more sense to you. Pisskop's genuine as hell.

So help me out. Which posts of pisskop's are transparency tells? Is this a gut-feel thing, because I feel like you're very vague about what is townish in pisskop. See what I wrote about pisskop in 1130, I haven't seen anything particularly towny since then, but it sounds like you're telling me I don't know what to look for.

[emeraldemon]

Guys I don't know if the deadline is gonna get extended again if Nacho swaps out, but I'm traveling most of tomorrow, I don't think I'll be able to post.

@fferyllt
I'll ask you the same question I asked ray: what am I missing about pisskop that makes him town? Are there any posts you can point to?

[emeraldemon]

Hana was L-1, ffery stated intent to hammer, so yes you should claim.

[emeraldemon]

hana's L-2 . . .

Don't do this. Why would you do this? Please don't make me regret not lynching you.

[emeraldemon]

I've got an hour or so before I have to go, so of course I come and check this thread.

unvote

I believe the things people are saying about pisskop, I can see him as probably town.

@emeraldemon what made you feel that a lurker with 4-5 posts was comparably scummy to a player with a ton of posts and stances to evaluate?

Like I said, 386 was convincing to me. I didn't know nacho had a reputation, but his arguments and his conviction are persuasive. I also want to point out that those reads were before the "sorry to let you all down" post. His last post was just "Hostile place". That didn't sound like lost newb town to me.

I don't think this is good scumhunting, but it's also hard for me to imagine continuing to play this way if ika and bjc are scum partners. Also I could be wrong about this but I think scum tend to be a bit more sticky in their reads, hesitant to put down a solid read, but pushing or tunneling on one person once they've voted. I don't like these votes, but on review I don't think it's a convincing scum case.

How did you develop this impression about scum play tendencies?

By reading and playing and thinking I suppose. Scum don't have to weigh all the evidence, they're not uncertain or paranoid about who's town. They really only have two reasons to change reads: to push an opportunity (like a town wagon) or to fake being town. Of course good scum will do that, but I think it's hard to do fluidly and realistically.

hana's L-2 . . .

Don't do this. Why would you do this? Please don't make me regret not lynching you.

What were you expecting to gain from claiming Hana was at L-1, when the vote count was right at the top of the page for everybody to see? This kind of gambit really only works when we haven't had a vote count in a while, and it's harder to check exactly who is at what.

I thought pisskop was saying that Hana's vote put tiershift at L-2, not L-1, which could have forced an accidental hammer.

[emeraldemon]

I believe the things people are saying about pisskop, I can see him as probably town.

What in particular convinced you?

It was 1302 more than 1266, although both added something. I guess I'm more convinced by arguments about intent and motivation than tone. I was one of the ones scumreading kisspop and Sakura both, and even though his argument was wobbly pisskop was the one who put me on the idea of tiershift/sakura scumteam. I'm not really sure what scum pisskop would look like, but I'm starting to think this isn't it.

Your play and the theory behind it is pretty thoughtful for your apparent level of experience. I know that lingo and theory rub off quickly based on who new players encounter in their early games. But, in your play it seems pretty internalized already.

Thanks I guess

Does tiershift claiming VT shake your scumread on him?

[emeraldemon]

Oh btw i killed ED because he bleed PR when he didn't want to be run up to claim.

Yeah, I really regret saying that, you did a good job NKing me, otherwise the game would have ended sooner

Good game everyone, I'll be curious what nacho says about this game. Tier I think you played pretty well, but I think as town you would have been a lot more paranoid about me, which made me paranoid about you. I probably should have scumread you sooner, but I think part of me was hoping you were town so I wouldn't end up lynching you two games in a row

[emeraldemon]

Also thanks to GuyInFreezer for modding. Everything ran very smoothly.

[emeraldemon]

Is there a test or something you have to take to newbie mod?