Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[AbboTT]

So firm.

[AbboTT]

I think it's also fairly null, considering

all possible roles are roles that can be found in the 3x3 box.

This. He's just messing with us.

**

Unrelated: VOTE: Nacho
IC blanket party!

[AbboTT]

What a fantastic start. Lots of drama right out of the gate.

so you say a second vote is never rvs?

I suggest a new tactic to determine if something is RVS or a legitimate vote. Just. Ask. The. Voter.

Why did you move your vote to abbott?

why do you care is the bigger question here?

@ika: It's obvious why anybody would care. So obvious that I'm wondering if your question here is supposed to be rhetorical. Are you implying that emeraldmon shouldn't care who you are voting for? Or were you just fishing for a post like this? Beh. I dislike "sneaky" townies. It makes it harder to sort everybody out. The town's biggest weapon is its numbers. Trying to be a sneaky McSneak pants doesn't help communication.

***

Interesting OMGUS from nacho. Anybody wanna help me get this train rolling?

[AbboTT]

Interesting OMGUS from nacho.

Ah yes. Neutral face. Very helpful content, there.

[AbboTT]

words

@ika: Okay. I didn't get much of anything out of this exchange. I do have one followup question for you; if you are content with placing "random" votes at this point in the game, why aren't you willing to vote for nacho?

Wagons are the fast track out of RVS.

[AbboTT]

UNVOTE: That escalated quickly. Geez.

Sorry I missed the fun earlier. Lots of questions pointed my way. Catching up now but it's 0200, detailed posts may have to wait for tomorrow. I'll give it a shot though.

[AbboTT]

LOL at Nacho's dramatic reaction to his wagon. Wow. Man, I love a good IC wagon. You know, "the bigger they are" and all of that.

I honestly didn't have any read on nacho until he threw a fit and clutched onto his little OMGUS baby blanket for protection.

It's either scum or ego. Undecided at the moment.

That being said, pressure on me is totally fair right now. I get it. This game is moving a little faster than my last few. I just need to adjust.

[AbboTT]

Abbott, why do you say wagons are the way out of RVS, then place a lone vote?

Fair question, but you got it backwards. I placed a vote, started a wagon that eventually ran all the way up to L-1, and _then_ said that wagons are the way out of RVS.

Don't get it twisted, boo.

[AbboTT]

@Nacho: I don't have a handle on your playstyle yet. Would you help me understand something? You seem to be the type of player who drops a lot of unsupported reads (So-and-so is scum. So-and-so is incredibly town).

Are these your genuine reads or are you just sharing your gut reactions or current thoughts based on their most recent content?

I am usually very wary of people who declare things with certainty this early in the game. There are but a few people who _know_ who is scum and who is town. Those people are scum. Since townies have no real incentive to lie, that sort of bold posturing puts me off.

[AbboTT]

In nacho's 95 he scolds me for supposedly demanding content from him and then, in the same post, invites ika to call him out if he isn't paying enough attention to the game.

Curious.

[AbboTT]

Hahaha. And then, in 98, he attacks me for the same thing again _and_ rewrites history here:

Then Abbott goes on not even to dip his toe in the pool of drama and instead throws some nonsense useless questions at ika and pushes me for "OMGUS". If Abbott were town, he would be happier to delve into that drama, parse reads from it, but NOPE. This is the mark of scum.

Either he doesn't understand my game at all or he is BSing here, hoping nobody will bother to check him. I commented on the drama and them immediately began investigating it.

[AbboTT]

VOTE: Nacho

Uses you come backs and tell me you were drunk or high when you made your last few posts, I'm pretty darn convinced you're a rat.

[AbboTT]

How the heck did I OMGUS him? Lol... I started this. I am the one pressuring him, remember? Maybe we need to take a step back to page one for a moment.

As for your second paragraph, no. Maybe that's where the other votes are coming from, but that's not my motivation.

[AbboTT]

For the record, I don't have many strong feelings about ika at the moment. I could go either way on that one. I do think it's too early to lynch though.

[AbboTT]

Honestly I had just skimmed it. Uno momento.

[AbboTT]

I know it. Didn't mean any disrespect. I felt the beginning of your post was directed at me. I was more interested in that than the bit about ika because ika is boring to me at the moment.

Now I'm all read up. I'm not going to write a point-by-point on my phone, but I'll come back to it.

Here's the gist: I disagree with most of the points you made. Generally speaking, it's not based on your conclusions so much as your assumptions. Meaning, I feel you are twisting his words in a few places.

Now, I don't think you're doing that on purpose. You're just interpreting him differently than I am. I'm getting town-vibes from you, for what that's worth.

Warning, semi off-topic theory discussion incoming:

Spoiler:

I adamantly disagree about the confidence issue.

Of course your second half was more convincing. But why are you so concerned with convincing? I know it's important to form consensus, but are you honestly that convinced yourself? If you could push a button and flip him right now, would you?

I just don't like using up credibility this early in the game on a guess. "Trust me guys, I'm really sure of this" will work once, but then people will start ignoring you.

Not trying to tell you how to play the game, I'm just trying to explain my thought process.

[AbboTT]

Woah. What the heck did I do to my spoiler tag? :S

@Mod, would you please give me a hand? Sorry man.

[AbboTT]

No, the credibility is used up when it turns out you were wrong. The old story of the boy who cried wolf. That's all I'm saying.

Forceful is good. Confidence is fine if you really believe what you're saying. It's over-confidence that bugs me. Pretending like you _know_ something when in reality you just have a suspicion or a hunch.

Remember this started as a conversation about Nacho and his posts early in the game where he made snap decisions and presented them as fact. If I recall correctly he even directed one at you. "You probably shouldn't vote for town"

Content-less posturing.

[AbboTT]

Emerald was not a wagon when I placed my vote. Only two votes had been placed in the game and neither of them were on ED.

If you're asking why I didn't switch to jump on the wagon, it's because I was committed to pressuring nacho. As a rule I like to feel ICs out as a first order of business. I would have gotten involved with ED if I thought it was compelling.

I'm not trying to be crafty here, I just don't understand.

I unvoted because he had just been at L-1 and I was a page and a half behind on reading. I was just voting him out of RVS. As I said before, I didn't have much of a read on him at all. Then I read his response which prompted me to move my vote back to him.

He deserves to be where he is in the vote count. So far he's just been digging a hole for himself.

[AbboTT]

tbh if a player is over-confident they found scum and they dont flip scum. they lose a lot of credability to me and would question them.

THIS. I don't understand why this is a weird concept. So much this.

[AbboTT]

it was also a thing to see how many people would jump onto it as well.

[AbboTT]

Updated read list:

ED - townish
BJC - townish
RF - patronizing townie

TS - mildly scummy
Nacho - scum

ika - ? (ISO needed)
RW - ? (post or die)
LMB - ? (post or die)

[AbboTT]

RF - patronizing townie

Pretty sure "patronizing" means false niceness.

Not quite. In this context I was referring more to your self-important condescension.

[AbboTT]

Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...

I will also

unvote; vote: Abott

J

ust sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and suddenly follow the wagon?

K

ay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.

VOTE: bcj

Spells out JK, come on frost, you should of seen this reaction test.

I don't even know where to start with this...

[AbboTT]

Hi.

[AbboTT]

I called you out for calling my vote OMGUS which, at that stage, is a weak accusation.

Of course it's a weak accusation! OMGUS is always kind of a weak accusation, don't you think? Especially when you're smack dab in the middle of RVS.

You didn't call me out at the time, either. You simply offered a single emoticon with no commentary. I complained about it by remarking that your single emoticon wasn't helpful. Then you claimed I was "demanding content" from you. In reality, I was just stating what I saw. Yes, calling your vote OMGUS was weak. You could have started a discussion by saying something along those lines. Instead you gave me an emoticon. That stage of the game is all about sharing reactions and thoughts. You weren't sharing. It's as simple as that.

p-edit: Put pressure on who?

[AbboTT]

So either I'm A) town with good reasoning for ika as town, or B) scum who believes there's a good case to make for ika town. Either way, there's a case for ika as town.

C) town who is working off a gut reaction and has no good reason
D) town who has just picked someone at random to townread in hopes of starting discussion
E) scum who is bussing
D) scum who is distancing

Please don't present something as a A-B scenario when it could be any number of outcomes.

[AbboTT]

The commentary with that emoticon was "this accusation is dumb, you're probably not serious I hope".

That's fair and expected. But I don't know you and I can't read your mind. That's all I'm saying.

[AbboTT]

you expected me to put to words my reaction and you found it scummy that I didn't?

I didn't

expect

, but I would have liked it. Keep in mind that I wasn't scum-reading you at that point. Per my 115:

I honestly didn't have any read on nacho until he threw a fit...

So no, I did not find your lone emoticon to be especially scummy. I did, however, see your following content as icky scum scum ick.

[AbboTT]

I think that the forming a dichotomy between Abbott and I so early is the dangerous sort of reasoning; there is e possibility that both of us just didn't mesh easily this game for no apparent reason.

I have a tendency to create TvT squabbles, for the record.

[AbboTT]

@LMB, can you break down this breadcrumb thing like I'm a total idiot? I just don't get it.

[AbboTT]

@Nacho: Wednesday evening. The whole chain of posts looked like it was driven by some sort of manufactured emotion to me. I wasn't

just

trying to be inflammatory with my drunk/high comment. I really would have accepted that as a plausible answer lol.

95 & 98: you give two separate commentaries on the same exchange you and I had. Like a drunken guy in an argument, "Aah...ahhnnd another thing!"
96: you curse at bjc.
98: All caps at me. Losing your cool. You proclaim I am the "only decent wagon" (except maybe bjc)


p-edit: I get that, Nacho. But I get what sort of test that would supposedly be. It seems useless. What would it prove? Please. Like I'm a stupid toddler.

[AbboTT]

I

don't

get*

[AbboTT]

Is the idea that he was trying to pretend like he was a PR?

Why would a PR use "JK" as a breadcrumb?

[AbboTT]

OMG. Right. So stupid. Jailkeeper.

It literally took me this long to understand.

[AbboTT]

Finally, why LMB's breadcrumb is town:

As scum, this whole scenario is dropping a fake crumb and then creating a fake reaction test off this fake crumb and then attacking a fake experienced off this fake crumb and off this fake reaction test is all for towncred. There's no way he could expect the lynch to go through on RayFrost considering having no real reason to call him scum over others, and I doubt he took the time to plan this out as scum considering its a lot of effort for not a lot of gain and a fucking crazy thing to think of. I think as scum he may have crumbed, and held onto it for later so that he could bolster a JK claim later; I don't think that new scum would plan out a gambit this elaborate for towncred and nothing but towncred right out of the gate.

I agree with this.

[AbboTT]

im tired but im gonna post this, if i die due to nk. Plz look into nacho/teirshift as scums

i feel like nachos reasoning for the vote on rob is highly unjustified and is looking at easly lynch pray right now. I will respond to all of your posts later. These are my 2 top scum suspects and i am not going to budge on these unless if someone gives me some damming evidence on someone.

i also want to bring up this post again

Vote: RobW

This is probably scum.

I feel good about ika town and RayFrost town. I feel decently about Abbott town, and LMB town.
I kind of like emerald but nothing too definitive, and bjc is starting to lean scum.

note how there is zero, i mean ZERO mention of terishift right now. everyone else is mentioned in his reads

Why would scum target you? You've been under the spotlight all day. Scum kills off the squeaky clean, not other suspects.

[AbboTT]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob W

Play, replace out, or die.

[AbboTT]

Unvote, Vote: RobinWilliams

I am clearly never going to get support for the ika lynch because everyone just sees it as his ~playstyle~ (I really really

really

hate how much my games have been "rayfrost made a good case but it's untrue because it's ~playstyle~" lately).

And I am willing to vote here for [Reasons].

You aren't getting any support because you aren't making a good case.

[AbboTT]

"Your case is valid" has been said to me by ika himself. [1]

Meaning the case is good.

[2]

The issue making it not a "good" case is the playstyle excuse.

[1] No. Ika is not the sole arbiter of whether or not your case is good. In fact, his opinion matters the least out of everybody else in this game.
[2] No it's not. That's what I'm trying to tell you. I'm not saying your case is not logically sound. I'm saying that you aren't presenting it in a convincing or (in my case) understandable way. If you could turn off the sass and make a succinct case, I would gladly give it some additional thought.

Meta hamstrings validity. Which is part of why I'm thinking of playing fewer games on MS. Too much meta being used for my tastes.

I mostly agree. Meta is boring to verify and therefore not very interesting to me. You aren't getting anywhere by appealing to our emotions, though. Go take your Legos and go home if you don't want to play with us.

[AbboTT]

If there is a cop and a doctor, there is also a roleblocker. Who will break that plan. In a heartbeat.

[AbboTT]

Well, what it looks like now is that you guys are all voting rob for inactivity, and can't we just let him be replaced and see if his replacement drops scum slips?

Who "all" is voting Rob?

Since when did pressure votes to encourage participation become equivalent to calling for a lynch.

[AbboTT]

This guy^

[AbboTT]

Hostile place

Okay. Dude. This isn't helping anybody.

[AbboTT]

Guys bcj is trying to escape his lynch by requesting a policy lynch. Scum scum scum.

That's a stretch. You got "requesting a policy lynch" out of one emoticon?

[AbboTT]

Alright. Rob clearly isn't going to be pressured, so that vote is useless until we make a decision about lynching him.

UNVOTE:

I'm comfortable putting bjc at L-1. His self-proclaimed "go with the flow" attitude towards D1 doesn't mesh well with my ideal townie profile. I do like that he isn't actively over-defending himself, but I'm starting to read that as scum playing it cool.

All in all, I think he's a solid choice. We will learn a thing as a vote count analysis and some ISOing should yield good info on D2 regardless of his flip.

My mind could be changed for a Rob lynch if anybody is down for that.

VOTE: bcj

[AbboTT]

Yeah. I mean it's hard to base a scum read on lurking alone.

@Nacho: What would Rob's his lynch teach us after the flip?

That's the big reason why I'm not pushing it.

[AbboTT]

It just doesn't seem logical to lynch someone that actively posts content in a mafia game on day one over someone who hasn't done anything, won't be replaced, and may/may not be scum

He's got a point here...

[AbboTT]

@ika: that was such incredibly weak sauce.

I don't know that there's any part of that loaded mess of questions I can begin to answer.

[AbboTT]

The sentence you quoted? The following two after that one answer your question. That paragraph goes: Conclusion. Supporting reason 1. Supporting reason 2.

As to my vote... I already explained that I'm willing to lynch Rob. I'll move my vote that way if that's what we decide to do.

[AbboTT]

@ika: I like your reads list idea. I have to sign out for the night though. I will play along tomorrow though.

[AbboTT]

3 people must be pegged as scum no more no less
at least 1 person must be pegged as town
the rest can any flavor or read
you must not give any reasoning for you reads.
you are not to question any of the reads anyone gives untill a fair amount of people give them (lets make it like 6-7 ppl)

scum

BCJ
Kaze
ED

--
ika
RobW
Nacho
Nic
--

town

TS
LMB
RF

[AbboTT]

Ah crap. Too many tabs open. One moment.

[AbboTT]

scum

BCJ
ED
ika

--
RobW
Nacho
--

town

TS
LMB
RF

[AbboTT]

Dodge. :/