Xenosaga Mafia (Game Over)

[sangres]

Vote: Venmar

I'm the flavor expert. And I see you sent me a pm telling me the game started but I don't need to read it.
Why? Because im refreshing the hell out of this page.

[sangres]

hi guys!

[sangres]

That was obviously not Nacho.

[sangres]

Fuck ffery stop scamming up my thread. Let me take care of this shit.

[sangres]

Sangres, what is your read on Kaze and Brian Skies?

Town and town.
I havent read any of their posts but probability is on my side and maybe Brian made a post that seemed pretty town?

[sangres]

huh. is it bc of his comment about zmuffin flipping super-saint? scum are more aware of super-saints and in this case it wouldn't even affect him. so I'm inclined to agree that post feels off

vote: Brian

what are your thoughts on sangres so far?

You got it.

I've no thoughts on sangres.

No thoughts?

Hey Brian, did you review the previous games at all?

[sangres]

Hey Brian, did you review the previous games at all?

No, I don't typically read games I'm not a part of (I don't even read some of the games I am a part of). Why?

I actually own two games in the series, but I have logged about 4 hours total playing time on the first one and it's now sitting in a cardboard box with all my other PS2 games. Don't ask me about flavor, because I won't be familiar with it. I don't even know who my character is.

I asked because there was a supersaint in the Xenoegears game set-up.

[sangres]

Completed games only:

Bro/AP
Cabd
Cephrir
Kaze
Mac/Mollie
MafiaSSK
Mastin
Metal Sonic (I think, not sure)
Orci
Pie
Skull
Muffin

Venmar's name looks familiar, but I don't think I have meta with him.

And both heads of Sangres.

[sangres]

kaze, I'd be saying "kazetown" about now on the basis of your posts except for one thing. I'm confused by your lack of thoughts on us. I would think you'd be making some effort toward figuring us out if what we've put down in the thread hasn't given you something to think about.

[sangres]

VOTE: Skullduggery

because?

[sangres]

57 is not great. Also, I hate walls of text.

What's not great about it?

[sangres]

I'm a bit distressed that fferycho has yet to initiate any sort of action with me. For larges, sorting me is one of her first priorities usually, because of her fears of 165 (Me shaping her reads and leading her into mislynch after mislynch)

Dunno about Nacho, but I've been perfectly happy to wait until you're fully engaged in this game.

Have you tried to shape my reads yet? Lately you've been pretty careful about that.

[sangres]

happy to wait until you're fully engaged in this game.

And for my own amusement, define "fully engaged"

Caught up and firing on all cylinders. Which looks like it's happening about now.

[sangres]

happy to wait until you're fully engaged in this game.

And for my own amusement, define "fully engaged"

Caught up and firing on all cylinders. Which looks like it's happening about now.

Then I guess you'd better hurry up and sort me.

Why should I be in a rush?

[sangres]

Are ya now?

I like Skullduggery for town. I thought I'd have warm fuzzies about Kaze by now, but I don't.

[sangres]

Have you meta'd or read up on the large theme game "The Walking Dead"?

Tiered townblock, went on to pretty much strangle the scumteam.

Upper tier townblock is the reads of a strength you mentioned. Townblock as a whole is less secure but more open to looking within once a day or two has passed.

I hate this post because now I have to go read another large game when I just finished wading through mind screw 3.

ISO Desperado to find the townblock quickly.

[sangres]

I can give you the TL;DR if you'd prefer?

You offer this so soon after bringing up ny 165 and

shaping reads

.

[sangres]

I don't think any of that would be a huge obstacle for scum-you, but I'm mostly not too worried about you atm.

[sangres]

You think kagami is town?

[sangres]

I meta'd some of her completed games recently. Reading in real-time is different, but I feel like she came off way more earnest and try-hard right from the start in her earlier town games. But, I'd expect that to mellow out with more games at MS. Other than that, her play feels townish to me.[/

[sangres]

Two newbies and the ETL whatever-idea micro.

The Rach game was ongoing at the time.

[sangres]

That's where a part of the "model" of her towngame comes from; was taking over as mod and watching it go off.

So is the early earnest tryhard stuff on the wane in her town game?

[sangres]

Also, I'm going to become increasingly pissy until someone gives me a real reason for thinking Skull is town. Or you, yes you, can nip this in the bud now by telling me! Limited time offer!

Meta reasons, mostly. The quote stripe walls are typical of Skullduggery's play from what I've seen, and the questions themselves look like what I've seen in her town games. Especially the ill-fated Tales uPick.

[sangres]

Especially the ill-fated Tales uPick.

For a game so short and broken, that barely got past RVS, you sure seem to like using meta from it a ton.

That was the first game (and prior to this one, the only game) where I had an early, almost immediate, town-sense from Skullduggery's posting. It was a watershed game for me in a lot of ways. I am still quite sad that it was so broken because even without all the role pm inno childs I got tons of town reads in the first 10 pages.

[sangres]

Are you doing what Aegor and I have been doing? (Keeping this vague, so I hope you know what I'm talking about.)

Maybe so. I seem to be coming from a different perspective, if so.

[sangres]

what's giving you reservations about Kaze?

I get the feeling I'm just going to end up sheeping your read on him bc I can't read him for shit. the way he's playing seems like what I know of his towngame, but I'm a bit biased bc we saw the same thing re:supersaint comment and I find the town motivation in his actions is p transparent if you look for it

I usually get a resounding town read off his first 2-3 posts. I didn't this time. There is definitely is something different about the entrance to this game.

also is it just me or was your entrance weak as fuck?

If my entrance was weak, then my entrance is always weak.

@ffery:

thoughts on mastin? also what's your current read on Cabd?

I want Nacho's thoughts on Mastin. And then I'm going to remind myself that in the Walking Dead game, I was having misgivings about Mastin from the start.

Current read is as town a read as Cabd is ever going to get this early on day 1.

[sangres]

I usually get a resounding town read off his first 2-3 posts. I didn't this time. There is definitely is something different about the entrance to this game.

anything specific that feels different?

Yes. That's all I'm saying for now because who knows, this might turn out to be a meta tell.

and do you think this can be attributed to his alignment as opposed to it being a large game? mb I'm just biased bc I'm bad at larges, but the dynamic in large games is definitely different than smaller games and I find my play is really different from small to large games

Possibly.

I want Nacho's thoughts on Mastin. And then I'm going to remind myself that in the Walking Dead game, I was having misgivings about Mastin from the start.

what happened in that game and did it have anything to do with his tone?

He seemed really hesitant to start with in that game, and I thought he reached out to me/Sangres pretty strongly as a town read, which was not something he'd done with me in prior games. I wasn't sure how much of that was a reach-out to Nacho rather than me. So, from a behavioral perspective this game isn't so similar. It's just that I'll be less likely to put away misgivings completely if Nacho thinks he's town this time.

do you disagree that scum-mastin tends to come across more arrogant and/or confident?

It's not true of the two games that I played with scum-Mastin. And in my prior meta-forays, I found him to be arrogant and confident in some of his town games. But, I don't constantly re-meta or read ALL the games like some players I could mention.

[sangres]

what's your current read on Ceph?

and how sure are you of Skull town? the only thing giving me reservations about her is that it's a meta-based read and she doesn't have any scumgames to verify she can't fake as scum. I assume you don't think she can fake this kind of posting as scum right

Who is this addressed to?

[sangres]

what's your current read on Ceph?

I generally don't form quick reads on Cephrir. When I do (see my towning him after he replaced into the Red Wine game even after he voted me in his catch-up), I'm often as not wrong. After the ASOIAF game (which I followed, didn't play) I'm more cautious than before. I'd lean a little town about him after his most recent posts if it were someone else. :/

and how sure are you of Skull town? the only thing giving me reservations about her is that it's a meta-based read and she doesn't have any scumgames to verify she can't fake as scum. I assume you don't think she can fake this kind of posting as scum right

"can't fake as scum" doesn't have much to do with the way I build models. I have been able to catch players on the basis of my town-model not fitting their behaviors in a game. It's not just "does X" or "doesn't do Y".

If she is town, then her body of work will point in that direction. If what accumulates in the game thread doesn't continue to say "town" to me, I'll modify the read.

People ask me this kind of question all the time, and I think it comes down to a communications gap. I can't fully express the gestalt that goes into a read, so I pick some highlights that I think hang together and will resonate. Or maybe I could express the gestalt if I were willing to write really, really long walls that nobody would want to read.

At any rate that kind of wall isn't going to happen.

[sangres]

I disagree. PA's LesMis and Mastin's play there disagree, as well.

Right. Sometimes Mastin is arrogant as town. Sometimes he's arrogant as scum. Sometimes he's hesitant as town. Sometimes he's hesitant as scum. Soooo...I'm looking for something more definitive. I dunno. Maybe there's something definitive in the thread already and I'm just not seeing it yet.

[sangres]

Zmuffin,

Why do you need to be asked?

And why do you know mastin is town?

[sangres]

lolparanoia

Okay, maybe one warm fuzzy for you.

Not really. Treating me any differently would be taken as a scumclaim.

Paranoia is at an all time low.

[sangres]

Zmuffin,

Why do you need to be asked?

And why do you know mastin is town?

i needed you specifically to ask for this to be funny

Spoiler:

meta

Ok. Go on?

[sangres]

No, YOU need to give me one of your patented walls'o'text telling me what the baseline for dantown and danscum entry posts is; and how specifically this matches the town baseline more. This is a team game, not a "stroke mastin's inflated ego" game.

It feels like Walking Dead and that one New York game, not Pinkmin?

Like. That's what I've got. That it felt like his more casual scumhunting self, not his scum self.

Didn't play pikmin, but I agree that it feels a little like Walking Dead. It's not enough for me to call it a read, though.

[sangres]

Ok. Go on?

:/ if you don't know what to look for, then you don't know what to look for

Could you be a little less cryptic?

where's nacho and what has he said?

He hasn't been around since page 2. When he's back, we'll synch. Until then you have to put up with me.

[sangres]

I am so not understanding all of the mastin hate. Could someone explain?

He's saying stuff for no reason and when pressed for reason gives more no reason.

Ahem.

But I must admit...this feels off. Mastin is supposedly one of the most experienced players around. To be felled by such a thing as this? I don't know. I'd expect scum-Mastin to have more chops than that.

Not to mention one would expect scum to contrive reasoning when pressured. Mastin is literally saying "It is because it feels that way and that's all I got." Not even an ounce of fuck-giving. Would scum be so brash as to just put down reads with no reasoning and not even bother to explain? Even when pressured? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen scum just take the "I don't care" route, but I'm not sure it would come from Mastin.

I've got a serious case of the Thisfeelstooeasys.

Someone help.

FINALLY <3

[sangres]

Could you be a little less cryptic?

i would if i could

if you can't tell the difference, then anything i say here isn't going to make sense to you, and i'm not even really sure i can describe it

there are differences in the way mastin approaches the game as scum/town and there are differences in the way he sounds as scum/town. it's not as simple as "arrogance" or "hesitance" or anything like that so i have trouble describing what the actual difference is. when nacho is around, ask him what he thinks. or i'll talk to him myself when he's around and posting.

I don't know that I can tell the difference, but I don't unequivocally get a scum sense from his posts in this game so far. For me, the Walking Dead game was way more of a "something's not right", and I wound up putting aside concerns when I should have kept them in mind.

When Nacho and I confab I'll let him know yu want to talk to him.

[sangres]

Yeah? Why?

Well lets see its page 2 and I am trolling ffery and she seems unaware that the chronic troll is trolling her. Duhhhhhh, null-leaning-scum off the bat for her.

ffery is quite easy to troll that way.

Sangres, what is your read on Kaze and Brian Skies?

Town and town.
I havent read any of their posts but probability is on my side and maybe Brian made a post that seemed pretty town?

This post is also "meh" but leaning towards "Uhhhh, ffery are you SURE you rolled town??" with a dash of ffery suddenly being cheeky and not realizing that I was doing just that not 5 posts ago?[/quote]
Nacho made that post.

[sangres]

ffery,

do you think you can read pieguy? what do you think of his posts so far?

i think he's really shit at imitating his town game and he doesn't quite know what to say to me. all his responses to my suspicion of him have felt unnatural

I dunno. There have been a couple off-notes. It's 3 am. I'll think about this in a few hours and get back to you.

Speaking of off-notes, it's kinda odd how you've reached out to me about reads this game.

[sangres]

I'm not commenting at all on pieguyn yet. As for Mastin, I mostly want to see what Nacho thinks right now.

[sangres]

P-edit: Hi Nacho

It's ffery.

[sangres]

Eh?

That was me finally really liking one of your posts.

[sangres]

oh thank god frat bros are town

I think muffina is too

You're being pretty quiet.

[sangres]

oh thank god frat bros are town

I think muffina is too

You're being pretty quiet.

am I allowed to talk to you I can't tell these days

Would that have something to do with this being your 5th post in the game?

[sangres]

This is actually a surprisingly-good description.

surprisingly?

[sangres]

oh thank god frat bros are town

I think muffina is too

You're being pretty quiet.

am I allowed to talk to you I can't tell these days

Would that have something to do with this being your 5th post in the game?

mebbe

can you plz answer truthfully as to whether or not you are scum otherwise I am waiting for nacho

"It's ffery's fault I'm not posting" is how I'm reading this. And it's how I thought your earlier post sounded, too, but I wanted to clear it up if it's a misunderstanding.

I almost voted you when I saw your first reply to me but

I

want to talk to Nacho, too.

If you know anything about my play, and you DO know my play, then you know that I feel like my posts and stances should reveal I'm town. Or not.

Will my saying "I'm town" actually set your mind at ease?

[sangres]

I think there is a distinct fundamental difference between us and I think this convo is helping me pin it down!

"It's ffery's fault I'm not posting" <----implies blame and that is not what I am doing I am pretty sure I haven't even hinted at that! but you go there. you so go there.

I hate having to walk eggshells around you but the truth of the matter is that I

do

. but there is no "fault" for the quantity of my posts.

and no your posts and stances have not sunk in yet so no read.

I go there because there has been plenty of blame in other games. And I don't feel like there's any justification for blame in this one.

You didn't answer my question.

[sangres]

You still haven't answered my question.

[sangres]

Will my saying "I'm town" actually set your mind at ease?

is this the question you are referring to?

mebbe

Well then. I'm town as fuck.

[sangres]

This has to be at least the third or fourth time you've said, "I want to do such-and-such, but I should consult with Nacho first." With all due respect, what are you comfortable doing without Nacho's input? If your hydra partner isn't keeping up, what's stopping you from just playing solo? This is the kind of thing that makes me dislike hydras.

For all intents and purposes, I am playing solo. Your irritation is noted, though and I'll keep your concerns in mind.

It has nothing to do with being a hydra, per se. It has to do with wanting Nacho's opinion on some players that I know he can read well. I'd want his opinion if we were playing separately. The difference is that his role and alignment are mod confirmed to me because it's my role PM too, so I won't have to weigh any of that up in evaluating his opinions.

[sangres]

This is not a natural progression of reads.

mastin how the hell did you townread us off one freakin' post holy shit? that's a cause for concern.

Talk about your Mastin read, plz.

[sangres]

This paragraph about sangres is a lot of words that don't say very much. But suffice to say I don't agree, not to mention I don't think Nacho is even here yet? Also, would it be scummy if they didn't sound like a combination between themselves? I mean, yes, if Nacho was posting and ffery wasn't I would probably vote them, but in a void.

Nacho was around right at the start of the game day. Not since page 2. Anyone trying to read Sangres via Nacho meta is on the wrong track right now.

[sangres]

Town:

AFB
Skullduggery
Cabd
Orcinus
Brian Skies
MacMollie*

Maybe Town:

Metal Sonic
Cephrir*
Kaze
Varsoon
Mastin2*

Null:

MafiaSSK
zmuffin*
pieguyn
Kagami – might move her down because she's pretty damn inactive looking

Maybe Scum:

Aegor
Venmar
Flandre Scarlett

* reads I particularly want to discuss with Nacho

I'm working through my null pile to see if I can move some of them up or down.

This is not a seriatim list.

[sangres]

Maybe Town:
Metal Sonic <----rely on varsoon to sort if varsoon-town; but this very well could be a fuzzy 1525 again
Cephrir* <---people keep debating this I say town
Kaze <---meh
Varsoon <---I refuse to sort him, his playstyle and mine clash so hard it's hard to get a read
Mastin2* <---I think he drew scum for srs

Metal Sonic - I'm thinking more Perpetual MYLO, actually.
Cephrir - I like his unhappiness with my posting.
Kaze - he got better.
Varsoon - I thought about putting him in null. I am not sure exactly why I didn't, except I think he prides himself too much on his scum game to be so minor a presence so far
Mastin - I know you do. I want to go back and look at Imperishable Night. I seem to remember that it was his wishywashy attitude toward our slot during late day 1 that you didn't like.

[sangres]

I guess it was me who was concerned about his wishywashyness.

[sangres]

coulda fooled me.

[sangres]

also, is there anything else re my list you want to talk about?

[sangres]

yeah

you aren't townreading me and you shouldn't be townreading cabd

You and I haven't been in the thread at the same time much, so maybe you haven't realized how very much I'm townreading you.

Why shouldn't I be townreading cabd?

and leaning town on varsoon?

like

really?

Yeah, really.

[sangres]

I'm not digging on these reads because i disagree with them. you wouldn't be making these reads

1) you're not townreading me. There's no way. I haven't said shit to you yet, nacho scumreads me everyday, my play has not been spectacular, so that means you're towning me on the claim alone. I've never seen that.
2) Cabd was a very quick sort. I've read through your discussion and I didn't pick up anything too out of the ordinary. I remember you holding cabd more at arms length.

I'm townreading you for

the way

you claimed hated. Do stuff I don't like and I'll stop townreading you for it.

Your read list in your town games are much more mediate towards the null/null lean town/null lean scum piles.

Not lately. I look for town I can put in the bank on day 1. Do you need some games to meta?

Varsoon I actually just disagree with. Mostly because he doesn't seem excited like I think he should be.

I think he'd be super engaged if he were scum. Have a look at the xenogears game.

Cabd and I have played quite a few hydra games since 165, as well a ton of games where we weren't a hydra.

I will no doubt have some horrible surprises, maybe even in this game. My reads are what they are, and they reflect the amount of time and posts so far. It's a little early to be paranoid, anyway.

[sangres]

Although true to orc's thingie, I do want to know why I've been towned so hard?

Are you reading me in some new way I have to reverse-engineer in the future?

If you're town figuring out town-me this quickly is dangerous going forward.

Maybe!

[sangres]

I think he'd be super engaged if he were scum.

VBarsoon is sick, IIRC so this tell does not apply ATM.

I didn't know that. He hasn't mentioned being sick here.

I'll take that under advisement.

[sangres]

How hard are you towning me

Not as hard as page 1 of the BSG game, but I'm getting there.

[sangres]

Has nacho expressed an opinion about me yet

afaik nacho hasn't seen the thread since his last post on page 2.

[sangres]

this is a calculated appeal to ffery to get her on his side for a mislynch on me down the road. zmuffin KNOWS that ffery gets suspicious of me bc my posts come across as forced or unnatural a lot. and he also knows that ffery and I work together a lot. he is appealing to this angle to play up paranoia about me and manipulate her into siding against me

I keep reading this and wondering who is this ffery you're talking about.

it also conveniently came at a time of day where I'm usually not online, but close to when ffery gets online. although this is speculation and might not mean anything

Massively different time zones are a thing.

[sangres]

what does this mean?

are you referring to how you're not playing solo? bc I don't see what that has to do with this

No I'm not.

Your post looks to me kind of like a nuanced attempt to preempt/discredit some future suspicion on my part.

[sangres]

Your post looks to me kind of like a nuanced attempt to preempt/discredit some future suspicion on my part.

no it's me alerting you to what he's doing so that he won't be able to manipulate you as effectively if he's scum

sure my play this game is really chaotic, but if you do end up being suspicious of me I'm not going to be all like "omg you got lost in the mist!!1"

This is a terrible post. :/

UNVOTE

[sangres]

As far as I'm concerned, orcinus is a miller tracker for today.

No comment on 562?

[sangres]

As far as I'm concerned, orcinus is a miller tracker for today.

No comment on 562?

Do you really need one? I've already stated I'm scumreading pie, that post didn't do anything to impact that.

What post of Mastin's topped that?

[sangres]

ugh
I can see where this is going so I'll just claim now

chaos
avatar of yeshua
bodyguard

someone teach me how to play large games. I clearly am complete shit. sorry for just being a huge bother. i feel like I've let everyone down

/runs away

You realize that you didn't even imply an "If you're town" in that post I'm all squinty-eyed about?

[sangres]

despite playing with sangres for more than 5 games i still occasionally have trouble telling if its ffery or nacho

who posted 588

i think ffery
are you thinking what i'm thinking? about pieguy

Yes, it's ffery.

I dunno. I'm trying to think if he's ever townread me that strongly this early in a game.

[sangres]

is pie town or scum?

His claim will sort that for us very quickly, actually.

Agree. And the outburst/claim comes off kinda townish to me.

[sangres]

pieguyn, stay, plz.

Let's hydra in a large game sometime.

[sangres]

I wonder how many sets of neighbors this game has.

And if it's worth exploring fully atm.

[sangres]

Metal Sonic does your neighborhood have day talk?

[sangres]

Metal Sonic does your neighborhood have day talk?

did you really have to ask that

I have reasons for asking it.

[sangres]

miller tracker

I will be super duper upset if you don't get why I said that.

heh

[sangres]

sven?

orci, I get where you're coming from. I just don't see it quite the same way you do I guess.

[sangres]

wasnt sven the miller tracker somewhere? idk am i missing a reference

ah yeah. It was Svenskt, but Rev made that slot his own, and that's who I think of as the Xenoblade miller tracker.

do you want to expand on that

In mafia play here and elsewhere I see two very different reactions to soft/partial claims. One class of reaction is nuanced. The other class is binary. I haven't seen that nuanced vs binary are strongly alignment indicative, so I add it to the overall mix for the player and see what I think. That's where I'm at with Skullduggery. I got a town-sense from some of her earlier posts. Her posts to you are a flag and she bears more scrutiny as I go about refining my reads.

[sangres]

idk do you consider pgo/miller/hated claims in the same cstegory as other softs?

I treat pgo claims as fake claims (but probably coming from town - gee I wonder why!)

miller and hated I tend to take at face value on day 1 and wait to see how things develop. But, I'm very much on the nuanced end of the partial-claim-evaluation continuum.

[sangres]

yeah i just got hard ignored.

I've been scumreading you, but your last few posts have had more of a town feel to them.

Looking outside your neighborhood what are you thinking about the game?

[sangres]

lol that was one of our better games

on topic though, skulldug i feel knows enough about this game to not have made those cognitive errors in treating my claim

Wanna meta her with me this weekend? I'm of the opinion that a well developed town model can point up anomalies that very much say "not town". Lack of a scum game for comparison purposes doesn't scare me too terribly.

[sangres]

goddamnit.

Ok. moving you to leaning town.

but I think you're wrong about pieguyn.

[sangres]

Nacho isn't saying shit atm.

[sangres]

IOW all the saying is said by bourbon-ffery tonight.

[sangres]

the bourbon is confused.

[sangres]

what do those quotes signify?

[sangres]

I've been horribly wrong in thinking Metal Sonic was scum before so I'm kinda headshy in that respect.

so, I'm in an expansively pinhole-camera mode tonight. Help me understand why Metal Sonic can't be town?

[sangres]

O hai!

[sangres]

Ffery. stop being useless. Its making you hard to read.

Could you maybe do something a little more substantial than proclaim alignments in one-liner posts?

You and mastin are making me nervous for basically the same reason though Mastin does it with more words.

[sangres]

VOTE: Flandre

[sangres]

goddamnit.

Ok. moving you to leaning town.

but I think you're wrong about pieguyn.

Mind telling me about pie for a sec? I'm not very good at reading him, and I don't see how the supposed RQ makes him town.

I'm waffling about pieguy's sincerity, mostly because of how fast he changed his mind. But, that's putting me in his shoes, which doesn't really work.

But, by nature of his claim he will be sorted sooner by nightkill or later by town suspicion so I'm not going to worry about him right now.

[sangres]

VOTE: Flandre

no please why

Are you townreading him?

[sangres]

I'm waffling about pieguy's sincerity, mostly because of how fast he changed his mind. But, that's putting me in his shoes, which doesn't really work.

But, by nature of his claim he will be sorted sooner by nightkill or later by town suspicion so I'm not going to worry about him right now.

But what if it doesn't get sorted out?

My problem is: I still think pie is scum. And I don't think he'd claim Bodyguard as scum unless he could play it off later in the game and explain his survival. But I'm not sure what play that would be, if that makes sense.

I just can't let it go and I'm afraid to just "let it sort itself out".

I feel pretty sure that in this player list it will get sorted out pretty soon.

I had him around null prior to his post that freaked me out a little. I felt like the level of aggression to the people suspecting him looked a little over the top. But on the other hand it was all of the form: "you know my game, you know how I play, you can't possibly be scumreading me here if you're town" which tends to come from town more than from scum all things equal (which they never are). Then the post he made about zmuffin working to inflluence/taint my read kinda blew me away because of how heavy the implicit assumption that I'm town is. And it bothered me because I can't really fathom why he thinks zmuffin would have that kind of influence on my reads of other players in the first place. But, underneath all that, it was an incredibly paranoid thing to say.
All of that gets refined down, and I still have a null read, now with a ton of footnotes the first of which reads "wtf is with the ott?"

[sangres]

Yes

[sangres]

sangres- Brilliant vote, I must say. In the spirit of naked votes, I raise you one

Your placement in my reads list wasn't commentworthy, but my vote was. Good to know.

[sangres]

Why do you have Aegor so town?

[sangres]

sangres- Brilliant vote, I must say. In the spirit of naked votes, I raise you one

Your placement in my reads list wasn't commentworthy, but my vote was. Good to know.

Is this not the same thing?

How so?

Unrealtedly, do you have any reads this game that aren't popular opinion?

No idea. Maybe I've set popular opinion in a couple cases?

I'm still weirded out by how easily you gave Cabd a free pass. I happen to think he's likely town, and you did say something like '165 was a long time ago' but have you even been opposite alignments since then? (the answer to this could easily be yes, I don't know)

We've been opposite alignments twice since then, unless one of the games was going on during late 165. I'm pretty smug about both games, actually. Also, I've seen a lot more of both his scum game and town game since then both as a hydra with him and not.

Even right after 165, I was trying to maintain a non-paranoia zone on day 1 of our games. Your FEA game was a decent example.

[sangres]

Looking back at your reads list I see exactly one read that actually surprises me and it's mollie. I can't fathom how you could be townreading her right now for being useless.

That's not what I'm townreading her for. But I agree she's not been super-useful so far.

[sangres]

AP have you played many games with Kaze?

[sangres]

Ew meta, abort conversation, abort the question.

Stop misreading people who play to their meta. TIA

"to their meta".

It's not so much playing to meta as it is a meta-trajectory, and the town games landing along a curve. I don't think he has any idea where I expect his game to go next, because I don't have expectations. When I see it, I see that the curve makes sense.

[sangres]

I will say, though, that his early posts in this game did not make for the start of a warm fuzzy read.

[sangres]

My reads are sometimes meta-informed. They are seldom meta-based. It surprises me sometimes that I'm lumped in with the meta players, because I'm not nearly as exhaustive about it as players like F-16, Cabd and Nacho.

[sangres]

Ceph are you really making an effort to sort me? I can't tell. Your questions seem kind of shallow and perfunctory, and also kind of answered already in some cases.

[sangres]

Nacho will show up. He's incredibly psyched about this game. His new job is impacting his mafia time.

I feel like someone who knows how to read me shouldn't have any problems reading me in this game. Sometimes I start weakly as town and I can see players having questions about my alignment in games like that. This isn't one of those times.

[sangres]

I feel like someone who knows how to read me shouldn't have any problems reading me in this game. Sometimes I start weakly as town and I can see players having questions about my alignment in games like that. This isn't one of those times.

I don't think you're as obvtown as you think you are but I like that you think that.

I may need to look at 167 then, but Nacho was driving there. We'll see how the driver's seat develops, because that definitely matters.

Nacho was definitely navigating that game, but the majority of posts were mine, including some that were attributed to him. Which was the intent. Part of my scum meta is to take a backseat to my partner. I tend to do that as either alignment with partners I think are better players than me, and this hydra is in that category. But I'm comfortable driving alone as town, unless there's a strong reason for Nacho's reads to hit the thread asap.

I don't think you know how to read me yet. There are attitudinal things that I hope someday I'm able to do as scum, but I haven't managed so far.

[sangres]

She's right about why I asked the question, though. Kinda sad I didn't get an answer.

[sangres]

Well, part of the reason why.

[sangres]

I don't think they would think to.

Btw, if you've not actually seen the documentary that picture is from, I highly recommend it. It's hilarious.

I might very well think to. My scum game is lame, but it isn't that lame.

[sangres]

I feel like someone who knows how to read me shouldn't have any problems reading me in this game. Sometimes I start weakly as town and I can see players having questions about my alignment in games like that. This isn't one of those times.

I don't think you're as obvtown as you think you are but I like that you think that.

I may need to look at 167 then, but Nacho was driving there. We'll see how the driver's seat develops, because that definitely matters.

Nacho was definitely navigating that game, but the majority of posts were mine, including some that were attributed to him. Which was the intent. Part of my scum meta is to take a backseat to my partner. I tend to do that as either alignment with partners I think are better players than me, and this hydra is in that category. But I'm comfortable driving alone as town, unless there's a strong reason for Nacho's reads to hit the thread asap.

I don't think you know how to read me yet. There are attitudinal things that I hope someday I'm able to do as scum, but I haven't managed so far.

Yes, that's what I meant of course. I guess I should have realized you were cognizant of that. I guess maybe you'd be pushing Nacho harder to get in here more as scum, but if he's not available at all then you wouldn't have had much choice except to try.

I don't know how to read you in an objective manner, but I've always come around eventually when you've been town based on feels.

Daytalk question feels legit, I don't think sangres is scum.

This is a shitty reason.

FTR if we were scum I wouldn't be doing shit for driving because I'm seriously busy and have completely left hydra partners to post on days when I have work. When I am gone, I am legitimately gone. But I'm here now.

[sangres]

Hey Brian, did you review the previous games at all?

No, I don't typically read games I'm not a part of (I don't even read some of the games I am a part of). Why?

I actually own two games in the series, but I have logged about 4 hours total playing time on the first one and it's now sitting in a cardboard box with all my other PS2 games. Don't ask me about flavor, because I won't be familiar with it. I don't even know who my character is.

I do!
And I'm no fucking scrub so don't treat me like one.

[sangres]

Ffery, what is your current summary of cabd?

What's your current summary of screw you I'm not ffery

[sangres]

Yep kaze is town.

VOTE: varsoon

For sort of a dirty reason. I assume that http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p5638001 wouldn't have happened if varsoon were town, since that trust tell fiasco and shit.

who the hell are you

VOTE: brian

I have a townread on orcinus for these posts!

[sangres]

No but really, mastin, several of your stances are very unsubstantiated and it bugs me.

Don't you read every game at the same time?

[sangres]

ffery

ask me why i know mastin is town

Because he's playing really townish?

[sangres]

Ok. Go on?

:/ if you don't know what to look for, then you don't know what to look for

where's nacho and what has he said?

I am in the trees, and the ground below your feet.
I am in the clouds above your head, and the sunshine smiling all around you.
I am with you, Muffin.i

[sangres]

Zmuffin,

Why do you need to be asked?

And why do you know mastin is town?

i needed you specifically to ask for this to be funny

meta

when I finish running mastin into the ground you're next

You suck.

[sangres]

WHAT THE LITERAL FUCK IS THIS PAGE 14 WAGON ON MASTIN

[sangres]

HE'S NOT SUBSTANTIATING HIS READS???
ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????

[sangres]

Pie guy made long posts. Must be town.


Tbh I read him town and have no idea why others scumread him which h is confusing

Yup

[sangres]

Mastin - I know you do. I want to go back and look at Imperishable Night. I seem to remember that it was his wishywashy attitude toward our slot during late day 1 that you didn't like.

No, it was him not fucking shutting up about calling himself obvious town that had me PV him.

I think you honestly really suck at reading Mastin for irrational reasons.

[sangres]

I'm not digging on these reads because i disagree with them. you wouldn't be making these reads

1) you're not townreading me. There's no way. I haven't said shit to you yet, nacho scumreads me everyday, my play has not been spectacular, so that means you're towning me on the claim alone. I've never seen that.
2) Cabd was a very quick sort. I've read through your discussion and I didn't pick up anything too out of the ordinary. I remember you holding cabd more at arms length.

Your read list in your town games are much more mediate towards the null/null lean town/null lean scum piles.

Varsoon I actually just disagree with. Mostly because he doesn't seem excited like I think he should be.

You have a very warped view of how I read you, you know.
Maybe take care of that one of these days and stop sucking?

[sangres]

mastin and zmuffin

i can't believe they'd fucking pull smth like this on me

venmar because it feels like he's coasting and slipping through the cracks

that's all right now

Mastins probably scumreading you because you're irrationally scumreading him.
Muffin occasionally has really shitty monologic reads, that's kinda what it reads he's doing here.

[sangres]

I think he was talking to venmar. How anyone could possibly find that townwall fake is beyond me.

I dunno, some people are dumb.
Like the people who were pushing on him earlier!

[sangres]

Okay, cool. Pieguy is confirmed Town now as far as I'm concerned. If he flips Scum, I will eat a goddamn phone book.

Can you eat a phone book anyways?
I think it would be funny.

[sangres]

I'm neighbours with Metal Sonic and Angry Frat Bros.

^ Claim courtesy of ScumSonic

Confirming claim. The reason why I am suspicious of Venmar is because in most 3-player-neighborhoods I've seen, there is usually a scum w/ two town, though this is not always the case, maybe 3 town =mason idk

Mainly why I am picking on Venmar instead of bro is because of his early (attack) on me this game, and since it was direct question during 'rvs' and this had held consistently until now, despite us being neighbors, i believe that his attacks has some other agenda...

All three of you are town.
You're welcome!

[sangres]

the bourbon is confused.

Ffery's trapped in the mist.
The town mist I guess? But the town mist nonetheless.

It's amazing how town so many people can look and how much herp derp can result regardless.

[sangres]

I'll probably end up being the only one who thinks Pie is still scum

i resisted the urge to write an essay detailing why i think not only was pie's claim fake, but pie's ate was fake as well

but theory and current game state; it's not happening today, we can revisit it like D4 when pieguy has magically been unable to protect a single player.

Can I have your vote when you're wrong?

[sangres]

What are your scumreads. I'll tell you right now how good they are.

You can't do that when your main scumread is Metal Sonic lawl

[sangres]

if i get yours when i'm right

no backsies

Cross my heart and swear to die
Stick a needle in mollie's eye (you thought I wasn't gonna reach out to you but HA)

[sangres]

My reads are sometimes meta-informed. They are seldom meta-based. It surprises me sometimes that I'm lumped in with the meta players, because I'm not nearly as exhaustive about it as players like F-16, Cabd and Nacho.

I'm the meta bro that people don't know is a meta bro

[sangres]

...

Daytalk question feels legit, I don't think sangres is scum.

This is a shitty reason.

explain~

please call us town for literally any reason but that one

[sangres]

TOWN:
AngryFratBros
Cabd
Brian Skies
Kaze
Molliemac
Metal Sonic
Orcinus
Pie
Varsoon
Venmar
MASTIN2

[sangres]

That's majority, we win, gg.

[sangres]

So, Muffin lied. Eh.

What's weird is that Nacho didn't react in any way - positive or negative - to his IC claim.

There's nothing to react to. Either the mod confirms or doesn't.

I'm pretty meh about bork not confirming it.

[sangres]

There's nothing to react to. Either the mod confirms or doesn't.

I'm pretty meh about bork not confirming it.

I'd expect you to at least remark upon it. "Wow, that's fucking stupid." Or something to that effect. I dunno. It just felt weird to me.

You'd expect wrong.

I was staying quiet at that point because I didn't want to add confusion about who was posting what while Nacho caught up.

zmuffin is an interesting player. I like Nacho's monologic comment. I think there's something to that.

[sangres]

I would rather scumhunt today. :/

[sangres]

SSK, assuming he's town for now, applies a sort of vintage scumhunting ruleset, which doesn't necessarily trip him up further into the game, assuming he gets far enough into the game.

Metal Sonic is maybe an easier sell, but I think he's town.

Though I am highly suspicious of all knock-off variations on oriole's amazingly town handwritten notes on a plane post from Death's Diner.

[sangres]

Indeed.

[sangres]

HE'S NOT SUBSTANTIATING HIS READS???
ARE YOU KIDDING ME????????

Incidentally, no, I am not kidding you.

You're okay to not kid me but other people (cabd) should be kidding me or they have some explaining to do.

[sangres]

So, Muffin lied. Eh.

What's weird is that Nacho didn't react in any way - positive or negative - to his IC claim.

I didn't find the joke very funny.

[sangres]

I would rather scumhunt today. :/

Yes because that worked out so well last time.

I mean it did until I was lynched as confirmed town.

[sangres]

Ceph looks pretty damn town in that post. AFB if you disagree I will want to understand why in excruciating detail.

[sangres]

Ceph looks pretty damn town in that post. AFB if you disagree I will want to understand why in excruciating detail.

I remember the last time you said that.

do you remember?

I don't think I've ever said that before, except maybe once when I was scum and he was town.

[sangres]

This feels like NY 167 Ceph to me.

[sangres]

I didn't play that game. I dunno if I would have caught on to ceph if I'd been playing. I would probably have been too busy shouting about other scum that weren't getting lynched.

But this does feel like town-Ceph from NY 167 to me.

[sangres]

I didn't play that game. I dunno if I would have caught on to ceph if I'd been playing. I would probably have been too busy shouting about other scum that weren't getting lynched.

But this does feel like town-Ceph from NY 167 to me.

[sangres]

I'm still awaiting that wondrous mythical game where you are town and don't misread me.

[sangres]

Oh!

Just realized.

Fuck yeah, this game's a town win.

BRO is town.
Nacho is town.

They never lose.

We win.

This works out regardless of Nacho's alignment. I've never lost to Nacho's scum game, nor has he ever defeated mine ^_^

yabbut I have. Once anyway.

[sangres]

It's like you're trying to make me proud.

[sangres]

pdodge

It's like you're trying to make me proud.

what does this mean?

It's a joke about the way Kaze's game has developed since we first played together. His style is developing into an amalgam of stuff that Cabd and I do as town. Not the same stuff, but stuff we each do. Post 1153 has a bunch of markers of a meta trajectory I've been watching and occasionally remarking on since the Mini 1525 Tales game.

It also indicates I have a tiny bit of read-uncertainty. Otherwise I would have said something like "You make me so proud".

[sangres]

My main read changes are feeling less town on skullduggery, more town on Aegor and I think I mentioned that my Ceph read went town.

These changes moved my reads more in line with what Nacho was already thinking as of his last read of the game thread.

[sangres]

I haven't posted a reads list since then. In my maybe pile MS has weakened and Mastin has strengthened mostly because Nacho's reading him as strong town. And no, Nacho didn't put a comprehensive reads list down in the game thread.

I think it's interesting that 1183 didn't get more discussion. I'm still happy with my vote.

[sangres]

macmollie's postcount worries me.

[sangres]

It doesn't fit mollie's scumhunting style.

[sangres]

On the other hand, I felt like I was talking to town-mollie in our interaction over her having five posts at the 20 page mark.

[sangres]

So you think they're lurking?

[sangres]

What is your read of FS?

[sangres]

macmollie's postcount worries me.

So you think they're lurking?

I'm not asking you what I think. I'm asking you what you think. You have them as town, last I checked.

FS is scummy. Like my ISO indicates.

But not as scummy as MS?

[sangres]

@Ffery: Who gives a flying fuck if I think MacMollie is TECHNICALLY a lurker.

Yes, their activity sucks. No, activity should not ever EVEr ever be used as an alignment tell.

On it's own, activity isn't an alignment tell, I agree.

[sangres]

jsyk you guys are sheeping ffery's vote.

[sangres]

What's this? Cabd doing POV scumhunting instead of meta and reaction tests and shitposting? I know, I know. You can pick your jaws up off the floor now, we get it.

I feel some level of responsibility for this.

[sangres]

What's your opinion of the Flandre wagon.

[sangres]

Something to do with my charisma.

[sangres]

Aegor how about a brief rundown of your thoughts on other players?

[sangres]

Deaths diner

What about Death's Diner?

[sangres]

I think it's interesting that 1183 didn't get more discussion. I'm still happy with my vote.

what do you think is 'interesting' about it? and why does it warrant more discussion?

Because it was a non-defense. Right now, I'd feel like Flandre is trying to lurk the wagon pressure away, but it's not really a behavioral change, so meh.

coz i think it was a town looking post

and i don't see why people think otherwise

How so?

[sangres]

i remember catching cabdscum in perpetual mylo @ sangres

muffin is good

I remember that game with great fondness.

I don't think this is scum-Cabd.

[sangres]

mastin, venmar, skull, AFB, orcinus, AD, varsoon
aegor, mollie, sangres
flandre, kaze
brian-slot
cephrir
cabd

to be lynched D4 list: pieguy

IF THERE IS A GOD, THESE PEOPLE WILL BE VIGGED list: METAL SONIC, MAFIASSK (in that order)
(MS because even if he isn't scum, he has a secret scum win con and mafiassk because he's probably town but mafiassk)

So I know that my vote has stayed on Muffin for the majority of the game, but he is such obv scum! Just look at this post!
Vague reads? Check.
Buddying (with pieguy? Check.
Wanting to vig me even though he thinks I'm town?

Seriously. Just look and tell me you don't want to vote Muffinz.

This post really sucks SSK. Especially the buddying pieguy comment. zmuffin's trajectory on pieguy is far from buddying.

[sangres]

This game makes me sad.

Eh, to be honest, I liked your Metal Sonic wagon better than I liked the Flandre wagon. I was wagoning Flandre just for the heck of it. That said, though...Flandre's been remarkably absent in spite of the wagon on them. Also, while the speed of the wagon is concerning, how fast the wagon disintegrated is also noteworthy. Like, once it was up...people couldn't wait to find an excuse to get off, and were looking for anyone else to lynch.

Kind of like what you just did...?

Yes.

Explicitly

so.

Just 'cause I'm

also

looking for an excuse to get off Flandre 'cause I was explicitly casting a bus-vote.

Can't get less subtle than that.

And yet idgi :/

[sangres]

Looks like a pretty damn natural trajectory to me.

[sangres]

If Cabd hadn't unvoted at L-1, I would have.

Day 1 derphammers happen. Day 1 scumhammers pretending to be derphammers happen. In fact, Cabd and I did the latter as a scum-hydra in a game not so long ago, and we didn't get lynched for the next game day.

[sangres]

Oh you.

[sangres]

Is that how yours fell out?

[sangres]

Nacho would have to make another appearance in this game to qualify as ignoring anyone. He'll be Sangres this weekend.

[sangres]

Could you explain your actiondan town read?

me

[sangres]

Probably.

[sangres]

Thanks.

Hi ActionDan. We're Rubedo.

[sangres]

I have Cabd as town. I'm going to get cranky if people keep up with this bullshit about L-1 and there being no risk of derphammers.

Especially with Varsoon TELLING MS to hammer then.

[sangres]

How so?

i don't see how you can point out it was a non-defense and then be so oblivious to why i think it was a town post. but let's ignore that for a moment and think about something. pretend flandre is scum (i know this is a big ask, but just *try* to do this) and tell me what you think his/her mindset was when writing 1183 and what he/she was trying to achieve

Seriously? "The way my bandwagon is forming/not forming means I'm town" is a pretty common tack IME. Though maybe not that frequently brought up at MS.

[sangres]

It's a reference to the LYLO of this game.

[sangres]

fuzzylogic was obvtown. He also hammered the hider-cleared confirmed town at LYLO because he didn't seem to be able to take in the whole game state and understand it. There's a school of thought that being obvtown isn't enough to earn a seat at the LYLO table.

[sangres]

Actually, I'm wrong he didn't hammer. He put the first vote down and scum hammered.

[sangres]

You can't tell? It's ffery.

[sangres]

ALBEDO
you white-headed freak, come here and hug your brother

[sangres]

I would rather scumhunt today. :/

Yes because that worked out so well last time.

I mean it did until I was lynched as confirmed town.

Yeah that's kind of my point. I don't want another fuzzy or another TD happening.

Then stop playing Mafia?

Curious, how was Nacho confirmed Town in that game?

Still wow at that lylo.

Pitoli hid behind him and claimed it before she died.

And also one scum was flipped already in a three man neighborhood which kinda points to me being town anyways.

If I were to guess, AD is nigredo and town-aligned.

oh this makes sense too i guess

MetalSonic might need a policy lynch sooner than later.

you suck

General question to everyone scumreading me off of 5 posts-

die

And no, Nacho didn't put a comprehensive reads list down in the game thread.

I told more ffery more reads than I told everyone else!
Suck it. =]

Something to do with my charisma.

Our charisma, ffery.
Our charisma.

town even tho nacho is ignoring me!

ffery and i are on a weird really nice vibe this game
you're doing better with working with her
i'm a dude who shoots guns akimbo and i have a game relevant reason to out that shit early
good times
good times
it's also easier to interact w/you when you post more things i can troll

: run me through mastin town. i'm a bit less sure of my scumread on him but i still don't get why he's apparently town as fuck. his entrance was straight up buddying. when pressured he tends to just write said pressure off in one way or another, either by ignoring it and acting like it never happened or not taking it seriously and expecting it to go away. basically there's this pattern of trying to discredit anyone who scumreads him (me, Cephrir, Cabd) which i associate with scum behavior. on reread (and ignoring anything to do with me) his play seems town but there's nothing unfakeable in there and i don't wanna let this go until this gets resolved

then resolve it yourself, pie guy

My 2nd favorite is macmollie

wait we are number 2??????????

how could anyone like you more than people like us???

[sangres]

Muffin makes the town list.
I was gonna add Cabd again but he was apparently already there.

[sangres]

Who is certain about Orci being town?

Im having doubts.

If my Orci read changes, I'll let you know.

[sangres]

Gooner- Awesome as shown by the fact he supports Arsenal.

I'll try not to hold it against you.

Spoiler:

[sangres]

This is ffery.

[sangres]

VOTE: sangres

totally srs vote until nacho answers my texts

I don't think you were being ambitious enough before.

[sangres]

Ffery, I just want you to know that you nailed the living hell out of Scarlet.

[sangres]

Ugghhh, that game today put me in a bad mood. 4 down after 20 minutes. Wasn't happy.

You must not be happy much

[sangres]

He won't be a distraction if you clownfucks don't lynch him.

[sangres]

why is it that every time i get a good townread on a replacement his predecessor was already obviously town?
fuck me

[sangres]

Sure it does! Our PM has grey text in it and some flavor about going insane tdue to being in the military and fuck lal these people they need to die.

Whats not to assume?

I hate it when people do this.

yeah AP stop being so flagrantly anti-town

[sangres]

I am feeling slight paranoia about sangres can you talk me through it. I had them as town then had them as way town with the danny thing but now I am wondering if they are an sk faction cos nacho dropped his kill tell. fery dropped 1 too but since I can't talk about fery I will talk about nacho. I don't think they are grpscum tho cos I really do think fs is scum he hasn't come back and claimed and he should have by now.

I am thinking the more realistic explanation is that I'm a cult recruiter who can only post in haikus.
I also really wish someone would tell me my kill tells now that they are pretty definitively defunct.

[sangres]

There is no wifom. Just hilarious jokez. If Im making hilarious jokez, Im town aligned.

But what if your jokez aren't funny???

[sangres]

zmuffin

Spoiler:

[sangres]

zmuffin

Spoiler:

It would be awesome if I could get your reads on pie, ssk, and dan. Those are the three I had issue thinking about last night when re-reading. I take it you and dan are BFFs now, so I'm hoping you can help sort.

I'm happy with a town-Dan read.

What changed your mind about Pie? You were townreading him on the basis of ragequit yesterday.

ssk I dunno. One of his posts came off kinda town, but utterly wrongheaded to me. It was the one about muffin buddying pie. It was such an off the wall interpretation, it's hard (for me) to imagine a scum player going after something like that. I guess he could have pulled it out of his ass and then had to defend it.

What do you make of Flandre's reads in 539?

[sangres]

Ffery, convince me that you didn't bus Flandre to shit. K thanks.

Are you bringing this up because of NY 167?