Mini 1547 - Wicked Mafia (Game Over!)


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Post Post #12 (isolation #0) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:24 pm

Post by Mina »

HAHAHAHA, BEFORE YOU FUCKERS CAN DO IT!!!!

VOTE: Mina

I have a guilty on Mina! You should all lynch her.
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Post Post #16 (isolation #1) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:28 pm

Post by Mina »

You know I would never lie about a fake guilty, chamber. I mean, I started a thread about it and everything.

Mollie, how serious was your most recent post?
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Post Post #18 (isolation #2) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:30 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 13, Hanzo_5 wrote:VOTE: NotScience

This is my obligatory RVS vote.
We're already out of RVS. Don't you know? Someone has claimed role results. You should help me lynch my guilty right now.
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Post Post #27 (isolation #3) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:42 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 16, Mina wrote:Mollie, how serious was your most recent post?
By which I meant all the me stuff. Same question goes to chamber.
Malakittens wrote:Discussing this pre-game wasn't how I wanted this lynch to happen!
Translate this for me.
In post 25, Hanzo_5 wrote:UNVOTE: Notscience

VOTE: Bazinga

I dont like hydras, my vote will remain here until there is a better place for it.
...um...why did you single out bazinga of all the hydras in the game (ninja'd by Mala)? Also, have you missed that there's role information confirming someone's guilt? Are you just not reading the game at all or something?
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Post Post #39 (isolation #4) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:01 pm

Post by Mina »

chamber, I expect that from Bert, but not from you.

Medea, where did your confidence on bazinga-town come from?
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Post Post #42 (isolation #5) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:14 pm

Post by Mina »

chamber, should I be reading Malakittens as town now?

That wasn't really a dig at Bert (although frankly, his posts so far have been pretty clueless, and it's hard to evaluate his alignment when the insincerity of his me-push seems mostly a function of his attempt to bolster his faux-mollie imitation). But given you know the history of the joke, if you weren't just reaction-testing, shouldn't you have known better? (FTR, my intro was preplanned, anyway.)
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Post Post #46 (isolation #6) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:38 pm

Post by Mina »

Malakittens seems somewhat fluffy, but relaxed and chatty. She also ninja'd me toward a couple of questions I wanted to ask, which is a good sign. I asked you because I'm leaning town, and she strikes me as someone who'd be nervous and lurky as scum, but I might be wrong. So you know her meta well enough to answer if she'd come right out of the gates this way. Also, I want to see if I can beat Ampersand to reading you this game.

I'd made a joke that everyone would fake guilties on me and quicklynch me in RVS the next time I played Mafia--also, I figured it'd get interesting reactions. I'm not sure if there's much point continuing this conversation, but this seems like a really weak reason for a vote. If you found my follow-up posts forced, okay. But the intro is just pretty obviously a null tell from an experienced player (and it was preplanned before I saw my role PM). I mean, are you going to play the "self-voting is ANTITOWN!!!" card? Really?

VOTE: Medea

I almost voted Hanzo (the hydra vote was abysmal and safe, and I don't like how he disappeared when he did), but I'm giving a temporary
newbie
never-heard-of-him pass that will last until page four. Everyone else who's posted aside from notscience and Osseus looks townish (ask and I'll explain why--kind of wavering on bazinga).
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Post Post #47 (isolation #7) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:44 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 36, bazinga wrote:mollie has not posted in this game yet but when she does none of you will get off easy. bazinga!!!

#YOLO
Bert, please stop the stupid games and say if you've believed anything you've argued this game, or it was all just an attempt to look like mollie.

Hanzoooooo, where are you?
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Post Post #51 (isolation #8) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:54 pm

Post by Mina »

My sister and I actually found the first workout to be a piece of cake. :twisted: Get in shape! Also, I'm not interested in continuing this back-and-forth unless it really helps on your end.

p-edit: The idea.
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Post Post #56 (isolation #9) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:51 pm

Post by Mina »

chamber:


I don't know, maybe I'm projecting by thinking people are naturally less outgoing as scum. Mala just doesn't strike me as a particularly confident or vocal player in general. She was much less talkative in
Anything Goes
(she was town there). That's why I asked you if this was true. See, now is where you tell me if this
isn't
true.

No one wants to read two people who know each other hyper-focus and drown the thread in pages and pages of nitpicky paranoid back-and-forths (speaking as someone who's prone to those). I wanted to hear your thought process for your vote, but I don't particularly suspect you right now, and your alignment will be obvious soon if I'm wrong. So I feel like this is a waste of time unless you have questions it'd help if I answered.

===

Medea:

In post 55, Medea the Alien wrote:Mina, null or scum on Osseus?
Probably more likely to be scum than random chance because it's a jokey vote-and-run on an absent poster with no comment on anything that happened on that page, but it's too early to tell. Now, why are you asking? How much did you expect me to read into that post? Also, please answer this:
In post 39, Mina wrote:Medea, where did your confidence on bazinga-town come from?
===

Malakittens:


1) What do you disagree on re: Medea and bazinga? I don't think I ever committed to a read on bazinga (it's pending on how they answer some questions).

2) Please elaborate:
In post 52, Malakittens wrote:I think it was genuinely Mollie, but I'm now questioning it also. I can sometimes be right or wrong on reading her in forum mafia and this post by Bert makes me question whatever I had been feeling on the slot in general.
This whole thing is really vague and hedging. What had you "been feeling on the slot" before Bert's post? Also, "I can sometimes be right or wrong on reading her" is completely meaningless.

3) You're adorable. Just thought you should know. <3
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Post Post #57 (isolation #10) » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:52 pm

Post by Mina »

...I just walled on page three.

Please don't kill me.
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Post Post #74 (isolation #11) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:41 am

Post by Mina »

Aaaaah, like five zillion questions to answer. (Liking bazinga a looooooot more now--and Bert, I actually thought you might have been serious about your scumread on me, albeit in a "CLAIMING A GUILTY ON YOURSELF IS ANTITOWN POLICY LYNCH" way. Your explanation looks much better.)
In post 73, bazinga wrote:Your handling of the back-and-forth situation with Chamber is really odd - trying to inch away from continuing on the convos! I was quite enjoying the 1 on 1 banter! I felt like you two were really cooperating with each other and sorting out reads, so...
chamber wrote:
In post 56, Mina wrote:No one wants to read two people who know each other hyper-focus and drown the thread in pages and pages of nitpicky paranoid back-and-forths
This is basically my play style? Also me knowing you hasn't had much effect on how I'm reading you here? Its not like what I'm saying can't be followed by the others.
I was talking about my side, not yours. I'm someone who needs to make an effort to ignore my OCD urges to follow up on everything and say, "Fuck it, he's probably town, so let the thread breathe instead of clogging it." Basically, I got all the mileage I was going to get out of questioning his vote (I still think it's stretchy, but I can buy it comes from town and it's not like there are pressing non-stretchy reasons to vote). And I also felt like I was posting too much, anyway. It's nice at least one person cared, though! ^_^

Also, ToastyToast, I'd TOTALLY put myself out this much as scum.
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Post Post #75 (isolation #12) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:57 am

Post by Mina »

Bazinga: these were the questions Mala ninja'd me on. The reason I found that a good sign at the time had nothing to do with meta, but with her sharing a reasonably similar thought process:
In post 38, Malakittens wrote:
In post 33, bazinga wrote:
In post 31, Malakittens wrote:Mina y so serious.
can some1 help why is mala getting weird on me and talking to confscum

does anyone disagree on mina thing as scum
Also you should be able to answer why I'm getting weird on you.

Can you explain why you aren't voting this confscum?
In post 71, bazinga wrote:I've noticed that you pay really close attention to when people disappear for a few hours. Is this how you keep other players engaged? What purpose do these call-outs serve?
50% pressure, 50% impatience.
Hanzo_5 wrote:This game had a daystart. Assuming investigative roles do not have day powers, logic dictates your guilty on yourself is nothing more than a rvs vote.

Why are you so insistent on getting a reaction, specifically, from me, based on post ?
70% my own trollish entertainment, 30% the off-chance "have you missed there's role information confirming someone's guilt? Omigod, you're so scummy for not reading the game!" had of getting either a really townie or really scummy reaction if you were very oblivious.
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Post Post #76 (isolation #13) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:14 am

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: I forgot to quote Mala's question to Hanzo above. In retrospect, both were really obvious questions to ask, though.

Osseus, why did you unvote ToastyToast when you did without moving to someone else? Thoughts on moving back to ToastyToast?
In post 63, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote: I almost voted Hanzo (
the hydra vote was abysmal and safe
, and I don't like how he disappeared when he did), but I'm giving a temporary
newbie
never-heard-of-him pass that will last until page four. Everyone else who's posted aside from notscience and Osseus looks townish (ask and I'll explain why--kind of wavering on bazinga).
What makes the hydra vote "safe"? He gave a serious sounding reason for his vote, and a bad one at that. That stance on hydrae, especially if it continues is going to draw attention.[/quote]
The whole reason it draws attention to him is because it's a bad reason for a vote...so that's circular logic. It's safe because he's voting based on an objective alignment-independent fact rather than subjective reasons from their posting. But now that it's page four, I don't particularly want to vote Hanzo_5, anyway.
Man do I dislike votes without reasons. Talk to me. Is this your serious vote or your 'RVS'?
I'm assuming this is T-Bone. Have you ever played with CES before?

Speaking of which, Ampersand, why didn't you make the obvious expected vote from your slot?
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Post Post #102 (isolation #14) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:21 pm

Post by Mina »

Do you think Zdenek is scummy, chamber?
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Post Post #107 (isolation #15) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:26 pm

Post by Mina »

I don't know, "I'd like these two suspects of mine to be wagoned" seems....just a profoundly unremarkable statement?

I don't think you're an asshole so much as kind of weird. :p </asshole>
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Post Post #195 (isolation #16) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:34 pm

Post by Mina »

Wow, I missed a lot.

Town:
chamber
Malakittens
Zdenek
bazinga

Null-town:
notscience (part sheeping mollie, part his post about fluffing

Null:
Ampersand
Osseus
Ghatokhaca

Scum:
Medea
Hanzo_5
BRO_seidon

I may change my vote soon because Medea is mostly in scum due to competence reasons, but basically every single wagon except for Medea and BRO_seidon is actively bad.
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Post Post #205 (isolation #17) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:54 pm

Post by Mina »

I preferred it when I was the only one spamming the thread.

I didn't finish my comment on notscience in my last post, but what I meant is that as much as I want to punch him for the "teehee, I'm going to fluffpost until someone calls me scummy!", it's just calling needless attention to himself for nothing unless he's scum...and he then proceeded to step it up, anyway. I'm nowhere near confident on this read, though--it's almost "he's so bad he's town."

bazinga: Zdenek is a LOOOOOT more robotic than this as scum, so he's town unless he's got much, much better recently. He's engaged in the game, dogged, and is showing actual emotion about what he's arguing.

Also, am I the only one who sees that Malakittens is obviously town right now (knowing absolutely nothing about her meta)?
In post 196, Medea the Alien wrote:
In post 195, Mina wrote:competence reasons
Do tell.
I mean that Cabd is good enough as scum to post everything he's said so far this game, and doesn't look townish. It's less your slot being actively scummy and more that you haven't done or said anything that wows me or I connect with. But I've only skimmed through the last five pages or so once--that list was more my instinctive reactions upon a first glance.
In post 164, Medea the Alien wrote:As far as it being the other head posting, if anything that strengthens the read. If he'll forgive the statement, Bert's recent scumplay has been so utterly shit that I can't see him rocking off these terrible games and leaping into the forefront here, going as far to playfully impersonate the other head. Mollie OTOH is crafty enough as scum that she'd be sending out "mebbe X drew scum" reads on players, and using her "perfect meta" to drive lynches that way. She's not. She's town.
Except that read came from penguin (?) and before Bert had even outed his ruse (in fact, the read was
mollie
looks town).
Last edited by Tammy on Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #208 (isolation #18) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:58 pm

Post by Mina »

Tammy: could you fix the quote tags above?
~Fixed~


BRO_seidon, just FYI, tell me if I'm getting something wrong. It's possible I misread.

you're voting Malakittens because, on page two, she asked Hanzo why he'd voted bazinga over the other hydras (which both me and bazinga also did, although you explained why not me).

This is why you are voting Malakittens.

There is no other reason why you are voting Malakittens.

There is no better vote you could be making than Malakittens.
Last edited by Tammy on Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #212 (isolation #19) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:07 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 209, BROseidon wrote:HOLY SHIT MINA LET ME FINISH SPAM POSTING CATCHING UP THEN I'LL POST THE UPDATED CASE.
Here's a shocking idea:

You just combine like 3 of your quotes into one post so that you don't bloat the thread! This goes to everyone
on mafiascum
in this game thread, not really to you in particular.

Also, I'm missing something with the headdesks.

========
bazinga, can you sell me on Hanzo being town? He's just very...rigid in the stuff he's calling scummy (it's all very theory-of-the-game-based), although it could be a player thing. Also, I could do a BRO vote. Let.

Oh, also, I forgot ToastyToast. I guess he can go in scum, since what little he did say was kind of scummy?

Ghatokaca, why hasn't Nacho posted yet?
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Post Post #213 (isolation #20) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:12 pm

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: Let me see his touted Malakittens case before I do anything.

(Being a hypocrite by bloating the post count with EBWOPs as much as some people do with one-liners.)
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Post Post #224 (isolation #21) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:55 pm

Post by Mina »

Sheesh, mollie, I was just asking Ghatokaca. I didn't know Nacho had RL stuff.

On a related note, Ampersand, please become readable before you nightkill chamber. Also, is Fenchurch going to do any of the posting this game?

VOTE: BROseidon

The Mala post read more like a frame case, in particular the "justifying an overreaction to an RVS vote" line.

By the way, you seem disproportionately angry. Any reason for that?

(Also, 2-3 quotes/points is where I'd draw the line before a post becomes a wall.)
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Post Post #225 (isolation #22) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:10 pm

Post by Mina »

<insert obligatory "OMIGOD MAYBE ALL MY READS ARE WRONG" paranoia here>

BRO made a pretty good point on Medea, actually. Upon reflection, "Mala is town because SHE QUESTIONED SOMEONE ON AN RVS VOTE FOR A SLOT WHO CAN READ ME" is pretty godawful. I mean, really, penguin? You can say with a straight face that Hanzo's vote would have caused the slightest bit of pressure that would get bazinga lynched for Malakittens? Still looking for an actual plausible reason you were townreading them, Medea.
In post 222, Hanzo_5 wrote:
In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:Also, as far as Mala jumping on Hanzo for hating on the hydras goes, if we needed any further proof that this is town-Mala, scum-Mala wouldn't be trying to derail anything that might eliminate hydras with players she would fear could read her, namely mollie among others.
@Medea the Alien,
I compared this reasoning to the reason why I am scum reading Malakittens. I initially voted for malakittens because it seemed to be trying to pull back from looking as if it was defending its townread. In turn Malakittens was trying to put more emphasis on it's questioning of my vote and that the question was based on my reason. In reality, I see it, and other people see it, as her defending Bazinga. I dont see any town motivation to distance like that. I think that Malakittens is scum based on that.

Additionally it was an RVS vote and in general is it not scummy to heavily scrutinize RVS votes? I'm aware others have done it but i have more of a case on Malakittens so i intend to push this lynch.

Can anyone weigh in on whether or not this is a logical conclusion? If I got something wrong could someone explain to me a different way to look at the situation that is more correct? Is there a better lynch candidate that I am not seeing right now?
I did the same thing as Malakittens without having a real town read on bazinga at that point. Why do you want us to tell you who you should be lynching? Stand up to yourself

By the way,
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Post Post #227 (isolation #23) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:22 pm

Post by Mina »

GODDAMMIT.

Um, pretend I said something hard-hitting and aggressive at the end, like, "WHY ARE YOU A COWARD WHO BENDS WITH THE WINDS OF POPULAR CONSENSUS AND ASKS THE CROWD TO TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK? WHAT'S WRONG, AFRAID TO COMMIT TO YOUR STANCES AND LOOK SCUMMY?"

I didn't see the rest of Hanzo's "case" (since he claimed to have better reasons), but yes, I don't buy the reading of her post that it was all a defence for bazinga that she refuses to admit was one. I mean, I did the exact same thing as her. (I'm not sure if BRO argued something similar
since I really hate walls and so refused to read his post
.)

p-edit: Come on, I don't buy you're THAT good, chamber.
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Post Post #228 (isolation #24) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:38 pm

Post by Mina »

By the way, chamber, I'd find the fact your vote is still on me scummy if you weren't chamber. (That...wasn't intended as the insult it sounds like.)
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Post Post #230 (isolation #25) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:42 pm

Post by Mina »

Don't you at least need to find out what the vote was about, first? That's what I'm waiting for.
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Post Post #232 (isolation #26) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:55 pm

Post by Mina »

If townread is because you took that vote 100% at face value and they agreed with you, there will be words.

Also, you should be doing more to push my lynch. You said earlier that you were hoping to persuade people with the reasons you were giving. Doesn't it bother you that no one else listened to them and I'm not getting more heat?

God, I'm a hypocrite when it comes to spamming. Off to bed I go!
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Post Post #233 (isolation #27) » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:12 pm

Post by Mina »

Oh, one last thing.
In post 153, bazinga wrote:I glared stared at bro's scum game in the first xeno game. the only way to catch him is to view his angles and his angle on mala is very wrong and not in a derpy way it seems premeditated somehow
What about over-the-top rage and emotion? Is he good at faking that?
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Post Post #286 (isolation #28) » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:22 am

Post by Mina »

More stuff coming tonight, but chamber, I just think you should know that your read on me is embarrassingly bad right now. Like, almost as bad as Hanzo's vote on Malakittens. You don't even get credit for ???-reading Ampersand, because Fenchurch's post was basically a giant fuzzy bunny rabbit that anyone is capable of townreading (although maybe I'm just biased because she said nice things about me ^_^).

Also, the gap between my play here and Marketplace is much smaller than between here and Anything Goes (the latter was admittedly an off-game of mine, mollie, so Marketplace is what you should read if you want to see my best scumplay), but still decent enough to my biased self that I'm not sold by Cabd, Meta-Whore Extraordinaire, using something really superficial to draw a link between the two. If you're arguing there's scum motivation here, sure (but I mean, BoP is definitely something necessary to read your slot), but just "she made a single observation that was kind of similar to that game"? That's really the biggest similarity? People tend to fake-scumhunt by saying the same kind of shit they do as town, but moreover, the split teams meant much of what I said there were my genuine observations.

Also also, Medea, I still can't make heads or tails of your slot's read on bazinga, and none of your answers have really satisfied me. Walk me through your read on her since the beginning of the game (I mean the
why
, not the
what
), including who said what when. And you never answered why you asked that random Osseus question. Barring a couple of townreads, I really haven't connected with your slot's posts this game.

On that note:
In post 95, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:
In post 78, ToastyToast wrote:SNIP
In post 70, Ghatokaca wrote: I dislike ToastyToast's . Toasty, if they are experienced players, would they not be comfortable putting themselves out there as scum?
~ F-16
More times than not, the attitude both Mina and Chambers have had throughout their discussion would come from town. I'm really experienced too, and I know that there is no reason to put a target on your back early. Obviously scum CAN and DO play aggressively. Its a matter of how this aggression is presented. I see aggressive scum as hopping into an argument and starting shit, rather than creating one themselves.
In post 74, Mina wrote:Also, ToastyToast, I'd TOTALLY put myself out this much as scum.
I am aware that this is a possibility.
But statistically speaking, its more town than scum
.
Re: Bolded. Ummm what? This is a meaningless statement. The rest of the post is also unhelpful. "So town can play this way...but also scum can too". Great, what did we learn? That scum and town can play in similar manners? I think we can safely say just about everyone knows this. So then this post boils down to typing a whole lot of words without saying anything. What insight am I, the prospective reader of this post, supposed to take from this?
I feel like this post is mischaracterizing Toasty--obviously, he's responding to people saying scum would also behave like me/chamber by saying
scum are more likely to do this
. Also second chamber's question.
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Post Post #287 (isolation #29) » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:26 am

Post by Mina »

Tammy, could you delete the double post?


Since I started writing this last night:
In post 250, BROseidon wrote:
In post 224, Mina wrote:The Mala post read more like a frame case, in particular the "justifying an overreaction to an RVS vote" line.

By the way, you seem disproportionately angry. Any reason for that?
...

Have a nice day

I get angry when I see stupidity.
I'm really enjoying the atmosphere and dynamic of this game, so please tone down the abrasiveness. In that game, you were super-active, but only went off the deep end when you were lynched despite nailing all the scum. Here, a few people have questioned you on your vote on the leading wagon, and thrown early-game suspicion at you. Frankly, given that I think your major push of the game has been really poor, I'm not sympathetic to pleas of "you all suck!"

Also, I never said this was a
scumtell
. Actually, your heightened emotion and rage over being ignored are the major things that don't quite fit for you-scum, which is why I asked mollie about it. But rage-prone players who are good at scum tend to be good at faking those kinds of AtE.
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Post Post #288 (isolation #30) » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:28 am

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: Actually, in all fairness, you were off the deep end significantly earlier there, but still with more cause than here.
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Post Post #335 (isolation #31) » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:31 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 315, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:so I'm down for lynching notscience, mala, and bazinga.
...

Do I want to switch even if it makes Malakittens the largest wagon now?
So tempting
.

Your reads are worse than chamber's me-read, which I'm assuming at this point is just an elaborate troll at this point from his responses. Please cough up plausible reasons for why this is your suspect list and not your desperation "HERE ARE RANDOM PEOPLE YOU SHOULD BE LYNCHING INSTEAD OF MY BUDDIES" list.
In post 315, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:
I saw UT posted some reads
, I disagree on his notsci stance, this is notsci as town. He says Mala is an early game gutread. I'm a bit paranoid by the amount of people scumreading Mala, but I am content to follow UT right now. I can see Bazinga as scum, but I'm contesting that till I decide on Hanzo proper. If Hanzo is scum, Bazinga is town is my feeling. I'm leaning scum on Hanzo, he's leaning town, so we're leaving that alone for now. Additionally I'm wary of Zednek and Toasty, I think we agree on everything else.
Poor T-Bone. This must feel worse than hydraing with Tammy as scum. (Just kidding! Don't modkill me!)

Why are you content to follow him on Malakittens? Also, "I saw UT posted some reads" implies there was very little discussion between the two of you beforehand.
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Post Post #338 (isolation #32) » Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:07 pm

Post by Mina »

I'm fine with your having gut reads, UT. My problem is where you have
terrible
gut reads. Like...the only reason to scumread Malakittens' RVS posts this game are a bunch of nitpicky, contrived reasons BROseidon and Hanzo have given. If you're using gut to read her, then you should be townreading her. It feels like you saw a couple of people attack Malakittens' early posts and assumed it was a conventional opinion to call her posts scummy. I won't even go into having a gut scumread on bazinga. (WTF???)

I've played with you in
Brotherhood of the Wolf
, where we were both town and you were quite decent, and in
Abarat 2
, where you were scum and my hydra was voting your slot from mid-Day One until you were lynched. Sorry, UT, but you're really easy to read. :(

T-Bone's post asking for hydra advice was so cute that I almost feel bad attacking you, but no, I must harden my heart!

Also, please respond to this:
In post 247, chamber wrote:Did the same person write and ?
In post 286, Mina wrote:
In post 95, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:
In post 78, ToastyToast wrote:SNIP
In post 70, Ghatokaca wrote: I dislike ToastyToast's . Toasty, if they are experienced players, would they not be comfortable putting themselves out there as scum?
~ F-16
More times than not, the attitude both Mina and Chambers have had throughout their discussion would come from town. I'm really experienced too, and I know that there is no reason to put a target on your back early. Obviously scum CAN and DO play aggressively. Its a matter of how this aggression is presented. I see aggressive scum as hopping into an argument and starting shit, rather than creating one themselves.
In post 74, Mina wrote:Also, ToastyToast, I'd TOTALLY put myself out this much as scum.
I am aware that this is a possibility.
But statistically speaking, its more town than scum
.
Re: Bolded. Ummm what? This is a meaningless statement. The rest of the post is also unhelpful. "So town can play this way...but also scum can too". Great, what did we learn? That scum and town can play in similar manners? I think we can safely say just about everyone knows this. So then this post boils down to typing a whole lot of words without saying anything. What insight am I, the prospective reader of this post, supposed to take from this?
I feel like this post is mischaracterizing Toasty--obviously, he's responding to people saying scum would also behave like me/chamber by saying
scum are more likely to do this
.
(Replace that with "town are more likely to do this.")
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Post Post #423 (isolation #33) » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:18 pm

Post by Mina »

Blah. I won't have serious time to reread this game until Monday. This is a weird game, because half the player list is obvious town and the other half is scummy. Toasty is my only "null" read. On that note:
In post 303, Ghatokaca wrote:
In post 298, Zdenek wrote:hiding behind being in a hydra to avoid giving reads, but what's a fox to do?
That's a rather uncharitable interpretation of what I posted. I said that I had some reads but wasn't confident in any of them except my read on Mina, and that going through them with Nacho will help me refine them. I am not hiding anything. I've been open about my reads. I have one read so far which I am happy to discuss if you want.

~ F-16
How could you have so much trouble gaining a second confident read in a game like this?

Medea, BROseidon, Osseus, Ghatokaca, Hanzo, and Toasty Toast, three of you are probably town and should step it up. You're the only things stopping us from a perfect win.

Agree with those who said Nacho's catch-up post was lacklustre (not terrible so much as lacking some typical Nacho fire) and Ghatokaca's Medea-town read is poorly justified (I mean, scum try to look town by implausibly white-knighting townies all the time), although frankly, I think that makes them
less
likely to be scum together. Some posts of theirs hit the right notes, but they definitely
could
be scum.

Malakittens and bazinga, can you guys sell me on why Medea is town? Most of the points you've made seem to boil down to "half a sentence in a post sounded kind of sort of vaguely like town penguin_alien", and is hard to follow or treat seriously.

Likewise, Ampersand, why is Medea a better vote than the other people I listed above? I'm having trouble following their thought processes or connecting with their posts, and some stuff they've said has been off, but I don't know if I'd go as far to call them obvscum. Right now, although I'm paranoid Medea/Ghatokaca/BRO scum can coast to endgame if they aren't taken out early, I feel like Osseus is more likely to flip scum, and will probably change my vote soon. (If your argument is that UT will become readable, isn't he already pretty readable?)

Next on my to-do list is to reread Medea to see if their description of their for the checks out, and to meta Hanzo unless someone else wants to do it for me--someone with this robotic a thought process would do this in every single game if he was town.
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Post Post #527 (isolation #34) » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:17 pm

Post by Mina »

At the risk of sounding like a hypocrite, can people tone down the quote wall battles a bit?

Since I noticed several people mentioned it, my entrance in Marketplace III was an attempt to get town cred and emulate the wacky shenanigans I pull all the time as town in RVS
and that usually get me wagoned out of the gates
. Like I said, this was a joke I thought of pregame, and I probably would have done it as scum because there's no downside to it. (Actually, this would have been a lot easier to pull off than that extended gambit was.)

==============================================================
In post 493, chamber wrote:That's a pretty boring question from your POV, the only use answering it serves is incriminating me after you flip scum. :(.
Gah. Can you just stop being coy and
tell
me if Ampersand is scum this game?

Even aside from that one Fenchurch post (@Nacho: what I liked is mostly just the tone and her references to their out-of-hydra talk), I thought this was looking more like town open-minded-solving-the-game CES, but his last couple of posts about Medea read more like scum calculating-manufacturing-"logical"-stances CES. (I feel as though he's picking at stuff to scumread in Medea's big reads posts, which was pretty solid. In particular, the stuff about Medea not using the word "robotic" to describe Hanzo is weak. I mean, Medea
linked
to Hanzo's past games and said he played "like this" there--come on, obviously, they're referring to Hanzo's special snowflake brand of scumhunting.) Also, [REDACTED].

Also, can you explain this, because I still haven't figured out how serious your scumread and push on me were:
In post 296, chamber wrote:
In post 286, Mina wrote:Like, almost as bad as Hanzo's vote on Malakittens.
This read might be better than mine.
Ampersand, now can you explain these:
In post 67, Ampersand wrote:
In post 63, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Man do I dislike votes without reasons. Talk to me. Is this your serious vote or your 'RVS'?
I feel like both yes and no would work as an answer here, really.
In post 77, Ampersand wrote:We agreed that we would, but I was too lazy to count
(probably in part because it seemed like the right vote anyway)
and I thought I had made that play.
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Post Post #529 (isolation #35) » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:37 pm

Post by Mina »

GODDAMMIT
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Post Post #531 (isolation #36) » Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:01 pm

Post by Mina »

We're angry that I'm terrible at Mafia and this game is no longer easy because all my reads are wrong. Also, that you're supposed to give CES reads with 100% confidence so I don't have to bother. And how the fuck did you get a confident
scumread
from those first two unremarkable posts? What is your witchcraft?

Can you actually explain that cryptic post about Hanzo and Malakittens? Also, what conversation do you mean from Fenchurch that never led to a result (although there's something else I noticed about Fenchurch)?

What needs explaining is that in those two quotes, he implied to have deeper motives than "voting for the largest bandwagon."
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Post Post #608 (isolation #37) » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:15 am

Post by Mina »

Sorry, I've been feeling unmotivated lately. And the players in my scum pool have been posting content-dense walls that take a lot of effort to evaluate. I kind of like penguin's recent posting, although I'm just being kind of lazy right now and taking people's word that she'd be less likely to play the game as scum.

Hey, Fenchurch, how differently would you have played this if you were scum? Because CES is reminding me a lot of scum-CES. And frankly, you haven't done much more than discuss your playstyle and complain about your trouble hydraing and getting reads--you're just doing it in a way that looks sincere and deer-in-headlights-ish. Am I underestimating your acting skills? Could you have talked about most of this stuff as scum, since they're safe topics?
In post 534, ToastyToast wrote:Why do you think this makes them less likely to be scum together?
I have an unpopular Mafia theory that actually holds out most of the time. Scum are much more likely to passionately white-knight townies than partners under heat (scumbuddy defences tend to be a lot more subtle and indirect). Nacho-scum in particular looooooves bussing (:evil:).
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Post Post #620 (isolation #38) » Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:44 am

Post by Mina »

The emoticon in my last post was supposed to be :evil:. I'm still bitter over Muffin's MS Paint drawing.
In post 474, BROseidon wrote:
In post 423, Mina wrote:Right now, although I'm paranoid Medea/Ghatokaca/BRO scum can coast to endgame if they aren't taken out early
...uh...

Why did you post this?
This was when I was much more confident about the game state than I am now. I was thinking that if any of you three were scum, it'd be better to lynch you early. Osseus would probably be lynched down the line, but you three could easily kill the people who suspect you and wriggle out of it. Now I'm not all that sure there's more than one scum in that group of three, though.
In post 597, BROseidon wrote:
In post 494, ToastyToast wrote:As in the three of them as a scumteam? Why are you making connections between players when we haven't even had a single flip? This just looks like an attempt to chain lynches together.
They make sense as a scumteam and are all individually scummy. I'm making connections because mafia's a game primarily of interactions, and catching interactions that are off is the only real way to catch scum. Also, it would be lining up lynches if I were to say "LYNCH THESE PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE PREVIOUS ONE FLIPS," instead of "this is a scum team theory that I'm operating under, and is therefore subject to change should any aspect of it be proven wrong."
What bugs me about this post is that you speak here as though these scumreads (me, Mala, Medea) are present tense. But then:
In post 604, BROseidon wrote:
In post 602, notscience wrote:WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT

He says that he thinks Hydras are mala's buddies given her reaction to RVS?

Yet, in his scumteam, he has 4 names- 2 definate, 2 that can alternate, but one of them was the initial PREMISE behind scumteam with hydrae and one was just townreading them all

Did I miss something?
Mala was the initial scumread.

Medea was also a scumread.

Mina was also a scumread (one that has weakened now, ftr), but the Mala freakout made me think that that third scum spot should be a hydra (and with Bazinga being the only shining paragon of towniness hydra, this seems fairly likely).
In post 606, BROseidon wrote:
In post 594, Zdenek wrote:Anyway, here's where I am at.

Town: Mina, Malakittens
Weaker Town: Chamber, Bazinga, notscience
Null, not willing to lynch: Toasty, Broseidon
Null, willing to lynch: Medea, Hanzo, Ampersand.
Scum: Osseus, Ghatokaca.

I kind of want to lynch Osseus because an Osseus scum flip would mean that we should insta-lynch Ampersand.
Carry me pls.

But first move Mala down like 4 tiers.
I'm your top townread now? How did this happen? And you're saying the only thing making you doubt your scumreads is that Malakittens needs two scum partners who are hydras?

Never mind that your scumteam revolves completely around Malakittens' page two question, which is as null as can be. I mean, bazinga (who is a "shining paragon of towniness") gets voted for being a hydra, Mala calls the vote stupid...all because Hanzo didn't vote one of the hydras on her team?
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Post Post #624 (isolation #39) » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:08 am

Post by Mina »

p-edit: Uh, BROseidon, actually, my posts HAVEN'T improved over the course of the game. If anything, people are townreading me for like the first ten pages of the thread, and I've been extremely lazy since then! Be more specific.

@CES:

I'd prefer to hear Fenchurch answer for herself. Why are you actively rushing in to tell us our reasons for doubting your slot are wrong? It seems out of character. Also, you wouldn't
know
you looked like scum-CES if you were still doing scum-CES things, would you?

@chamber:

I didn't really think about it too deeply. I found Fenchurch's reasons for town-reading me plausible, and it didn't seem that unlikely she'd tell her reads to her hydra partner but the conversation would change topics without vote placement being brought up. ADwD was over a year ago, so my memory is rusty; also, Minimum's voting dynamics had less to do with implicit communication than with me waffling, CES voting whoever he wanted, me going, "I don't know, that person looks kind of town," and CES saying, "Don't worry, only one of us has to see it."
In post 614, bazinga wrote:
In post 608, Mina wrote:Because CES is reminding me a lot of scum-CES.
Tell me more, tell me more!
Disclaimer: I'm nowhere near as good at reading CES as chamber is. My track record is...two games where I accurately called CES obvtown, and two games where I skimmed like a couple of pages and went, "Oh, I bet he's scum here!" and was right.

I don't know if it's a good idea to reveal all the markers of town vs. scum CES this early, but I will say that Scum!CES is colder, more careful about his appearance, and tends to look at more superficial/objective tells. The vibe I get from his Medea posts is "look at how what I'm arguing is technically accurate!"

Also, chamber is scumreading him. Speaking of which, chamber, can you ACTUALLY explain the cryptic comment about Hanzo's vote on Mala, so I can completely clear all doubt about you from my mind?
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Post Post #627 (isolation #40) » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:30 am

Post by Mina »

EBWOP:
My track record is...two games where I accurately called CES obvtown, and two games where I skimmed like a couple of pages and went, "Oh, I bet he's scum here!" and was right.
...and a bazillion games where I had no idea. But the accurate games were more recent!
In post 313, Ampersand wrote:
In post 281, Medea the Alien wrote:Not a fan of Bro by any means, but we can't put our finger on why. Just something about the way he handwaved the z-fox thing's case on us away while still leaving the door open to jump on later.
"Leaving the door open to jump on later" is not a thing a competent townie should ever be saying.
I think Zdenek made this point (and I didn't agree with him, either), but why isn't this valid? Scum do what penguin is describing all the time (leave themselves open to change their mind on people they're defending).

Now, consider this my last attempt to read Ampersand for the next while. Stop making me do it, chamber.
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Post Post #633 (isolation #41) » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:54 am

Post by Mina »

Actually, I lied:
In post 615, Ampersand wrote:
In post 611, chamber wrote:Its not something you'd just leave undressed to the point that she would think a plain UNVOTE was ok with you.
My plan for this hydra didn't involve any individual posts, so in particular it didn't involve Fenchurch just unvoting without talking to me about it first.
So Fenchurch just posted in this game without telling you she would do it?

BROseidon, you're never ever ever going to sell anyone on Malakittens being scum based on that RVS question to Hanzo. And you're definitely never going to sell us on her partners being (well, the odds are it would be one in this game, but that's just a coincidence). Just accept it.

Am I imagining that in this post, Mina/Medea/Malakittens were your scumreads? Since it's in present tense.
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Post Post #634 (isolation #42) » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:56 am

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: on her partners being hydras just because of that question. The "freakout" is pretty meaningless.
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Post Post #692 (isolation #43) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:46 am

Post by Mina »

In post 668, bazinga wrote:whenever you start to pull this crap I default to scumreading you, you know this right? it seems like you have not posted anything for days and this is what and how you choose to respond to? lol, no

that was a bad post.
Am I underestimating Malakittens' scum play? Was something about that post a sign of guilt for her?

(I know you said you still weren't going after her, but I just want to be 100% sure.)
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Post Post #693 (isolation #44) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:31 am

Post by Mina »

BROseidon, give me an actual reason to switch to Osseus. The only reasons I haven't is 1) waiting for UT to magically become town, 2) I've only skimmed the past few days' worth of post (Ghatokaca in particular I need to reread), and 3) I still feel kind of icky unvoting you.

Please walk me through your read of my slot this game. What in particular gives you a scum read on me? When did you doubt it (if at all)? Also, have any of Mala's later posts affected your read at all?

In other news, sorry, chamber, but unless you're really confident they're scum, I'll just go with Fenchurch being town rather than look for hidden meaning behind the Rorschach blots that are CES posts. Every time she posts, it's like a cute bunny has hopped in my tracks and is holding her tiny furry paws up while batting her eyelashes pitifully and going, "LOOK AT HOW TRANSPARENT I AM!" It's mostly the references to the intra-hydra stuff. I'd like her to elaborate a bit more on the "don't know" reads and on Medea, though (and to do more of the posting!). Also, I feel as though Ampersand (at least CES-head) shouldn't have such a strong town read on me.

But I think I'm mostly focusing on them and BROseidon right now because their posts take less work to read. .___.
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Post Post #702 (isolation #45) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:16 am

Post by Mina »

Blah. Just reread Osseus. UT is actually showing, like, occasional sparks of life. Maybe I'm really underestimating his scum play...but I just remember it being even more horrendous than this. Also, some of the UT vs. T-Bone hydra dissonance looks good. But his reads are so, so, SO implausible, and the Mala one in particular looks like parroting the "Mala's RVS question was scummy" meme.

Also found his reasons for voting Ghato kind of nitpicky (two different heads of the hydra have slightly different reads on penguin's meta, but both agree she's more aggressive as town--where's the contradiction?), although I liked his anger there. Kind of think they could be cross-bussing, actually.

This is a slot that I wish wasn't a hydra.
In post 329, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:well my #1 argument is that I don't think he's scum and he'd be a terrible let's-get-rid-of-a-shitty-player-lynch

what's your argument for not voting mala?
Really? I think that BROseidon is playing quite poorly if he's town in this particular game. But since when is BRO a policy-lynch worthy player? Considering you modded
Anything Goes
, this opinion is pretty off, UT.

Also:
In post 340, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Both posts were me (Bone). It should be obvious who posts what in this hydra.

But he said "well town does this a lot". But then in the same post said "oh but scum can do this too" That is some WIFOM right there. What's the point? That town is more likely? That maybe this is one of those cases where scum is doing this? What am I, the prospective reader am supposed to learn from that post? I didn't get any insight into his thought process here. I don't know if that means that you and chamber are strong town, weak town, scum, fish, etc.etc. It's the type of thing a player can post to pretend to be doing townie things, so I wanted him to follow up on that.
How did you manage to give me the same inaccurate reading that I called you out for the first time?

He said numerous times that the Mina-chamber exchange made us both town. Someone said, "Oh, but couldn't they do that as scum?" And he said, "maybe, but it's statistically more likely to come from town." What is the "prospective reader" supposed to learn? THAT WE'RE BOTH TOWN ACCORDING TO TOASTY. Because someone outright asked him to explain why we couldn't both be scum!
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Post Post #703 (isolation #46) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:24 am

Post by Mina »

Hanzo, why did you unvote Malakittens instead of placing it on someone else?

bazinga, I'm admittedly gullible. But I like that Fenchurch is trying to be transparent and get her thought process out there even if she doesn't have strong reads or feels uncomfortable for playstyle reasons. Although some of the hydra theory talk is null, I also feel like if Ampersand were scum, they'd be more...cohesive? Sure, since they live together, it'd be easy for them to manufacture fake misunderstandings (or for CES to coach Fenchurch through posts as scum), but I feel like they'd have focused their energy on manufacturing consistent reads and displays of *~SCUMHUNTING~* instead. It's enough for D1, anyway.

And dammit, I was hoping you were more confident on Malakittens. Maybe I should reread her to see if I'm being hoodwinked, or if I can continue to scumread all the people tunneling on her for wacky reasons.

Also would be interested in hearing in what caused the major shift on Nacho (from top townread to top scumread?), since that's a slot I haven't paid enough attention.
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Post Post #704 (isolation #47) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:26 am

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: replace misunderstandings with "hydra dissonance", since it's closer to what I'm getting at.
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Post Post #705 (isolation #48) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:27 am

Post by Mina »

By the way, guys, tell me if I should tone down the walling and/or spamming (or alternately, tone
up
the walling and/or spamming).
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Post Post #707 (isolation #49) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:31 am

Post by Mina »

...

...

...I really cannot tell if you're trolling me right now.
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Post Post #711 (isolation #50) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:12 am

Post by Mina »

chamber, in that case, then we are apparently light years apart in our philosophy on Mafia and reads.
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Post Post #714 (isolation #51) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:35 am

Post by Mina »

...GODDAMMIT, NO.

I DON'T GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO SCUMREAD ME, CHAMBER.

YOU'RE WRONG.

STOP BEING WRONG.

GAHHHHH!

*shakes fist impotently*
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Post Post #721 (isolation #52) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:14 pm

Post by Mina »

bazinga, I don't think chamber-scum would fake a scumread Ampersand unless they were buddies, FWIW. My nightmare "I suck at this game" scumteam right now is Malakittens-Ampersand-chamber. Also, although I didn't like how he kept changing his mind on Mala's meta and his playstyle is, um, frustrating me (although mostly just because his wrongness is annoying--yes, I know this isn't constructive and actually just makes me look bad, but I don't care! He's WROOOOOONG!), this kind of boldness is much more in character for town-him.
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Post Post #724 (isolation #53) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:44 pm

Post by Mina »

I still think Malakittens is town. I just think I should keep my mind open, because I wrote her off as town almost from the get-go and didn't pay much attention to her later posts, and mollie implied reading her isn't a complete gimme. Also, solidifying my read on her solidifies my read on the people attacking her.
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Post Post #726 (isolation #54) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:49 pm

Post by Mina »

Like, I vaguely remember really minor things about Mala that pinged me, but I'd be completely talking out of my ass to mention them. If I don't end up locking this townread in, I'll get back to you, notscience.
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Post Post #733 (isolation #55) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:26 pm

Post by Mina »

I'm talking about this sequence of posts:
In post 44, chamber wrote:(also why would you expect that I could read mala that quickly? I can't read anyone that quickly reliably, and I'd like to be reliable with town reads if I even give them at all)
In post 45, chamber wrote:(though tbh, I kind of think you 2 are scum together? But thats a really silly line to take 2 pages into day 1)
In post 54, chamber wrote:
In post 46, Mina wrote:and she strikes me as someone who'd be nervous and lurky as scum
Why do you think this?
In post 59, chamber wrote:
In post 56, Mina wrote:See, now is where you tell me if this isn't true.
I have no idea? It seems like its likely true.
What I didn't like about the last one is that I feel you should have an idea of whether this is true given you've played several games with her. And if it's "likely" true, you should have damn well been able to read her this early.
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Post Post #734 (isolation #56) » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:27 pm

Post by Mina »

(Also, if you thought it was "likely" true, why were you considering us as a potential scumteam? Shouldn't Mala have been incapable of this as scum?)
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Post Post #757 (isolation #57) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:31 am

Post by Mina »

In post 740, bazinga wrote:Uhh...you're letting UT off the hook for "actually showing?" Not only has he like disappeared for the past couple of days, but do you have past game examples of what you're talking about? My past meta doesn't line up with what you're saying.
Well...

I'm definitely not saying he looks town here. I'm saying this was his ISO as scum in Abarat 2 before he flaked. (It's scummier if you're reading the game and see where his votes are landing.)

Actually, it isn't AS horrendous as I remember--it's kind of similar to the posts I think are from UT. In retrospect, I shouldn't have even mentioned a wishy-washy doubt like that in the thread--I wasn't "letting him off the hook" or even professing a town read on him so much as waffling out loud over whether he was scum. Sorry. I just feel naked without a hydra partner.

Hey, UT, why have you been posting actively all over this site while ignoring this game for days?
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Post Post #758 (isolation #58) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:33 am

Post by Mina »

Oh, fuck it.

VOTE: Osseus pseudotripodis
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Post Post #759 (isolation #59) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:36 am

Post by Mina »

In case you were wondering, yes, I'm an actual crazy person.
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Post Post #761 (isolation #60) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:14 am

Post by Mina »

chamber, you're allowed to find the above sequence scummy, by the way! Because I'm admittedly wishy-washy and all over the place right now. But only those posts. Not anything else I've said.

What I mean is that I'd ISO'd Osseus earlier and went, "AAAAAAAAAH, THERE'S LIKE A NON-ZERO CHANCE HE'S TOWN BECAUSE HE, LIKE, KIND OF SOUNDED ANNOYED AT ONE POINT." I'd remembered the tone in Abarat being much more rigid. But then I saw there wasn't a major difference.

I think I've only seen him in
Brotherhood of the Wolf
as town, but I know it's common knowledge that UT doesn't give a shit as scum.

These posts I think are from UT:

Spoiler:
In post 315, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:ugh this game is fucking painful to read

I'm doing the hydra thing because I was hoping it would force me to improve because I'd have to talk stuff over before I posted, but all that translated to was me not posting because I wanted to do consensus shit so fuck that noise

so I'm down for lynching notscience, mala, and bazinga. chamber is impenetrable. mina is blindingly town. hanzo I'm leaning town on because of his hydra thing, I see that annoyance as coming from town rather than from scum.
In post 316, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:oh also all this wheel spinning posting is not going to get us anywhere. let's windmill slam a lynch and get some information
In post 317, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:
vote Mala
let's get this shit done lads
In post 319, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:doth protest too much etc I'm not voting for you right now calm your titties
In post 322, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:it's okay baby we can lynch scum without you
In post 325, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:my question would be how can you not, but then I guess you wouldn't want to lynch yourself

anyway, I don't think we've ever played a game together where we've been on the same page, so this shouldn't be a new experience for you (I'm assuming I'm talking to mollie here)
In post 329, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:well my #1 argument is that I don't think he's scum and he'd be a terrible let's-get-rid-of-a-shitty-player-lynch

what's your argument for not voting mala?
In post 331, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:her early posts are super scummy

I don't think she's a shitty player either
In post 336, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:mina is this our first game together!??! squeeee I'm so excited for how underwhelmed you're going to be

our plan was to discuss things via skype but lolconflicting schedules hence why I just went rogue instead of continuing to wait around to confer with bonebone

I'm a bit confused as to why you think my list is random. I'm allowed to have gut reads yo. gut reads are my jam.
In post 339, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:I don't think you're really qualified to tell me how to use my gut. you don't have my gut girlfriend

also two OLD games don't really establish meta so maybe hold back on trying that tactic?
In post 344, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:you literally need more than one data point to establish a pattern don't be dumb


Actually, uh...

His stances are horrible, but they...admittedly...do have more life than in Abarat. And he...actually follows up on things...

.___________________.

WHATEVER. I'M SAYING HE'S IMPROVED AS SCUM SINCE THEN OR SOMETHING. STOP ASKING ME ABOUT MY READS SO I DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE MY MIND IN THE MIDDLE OF WRITING A SENTENCE.

BROseidon, you're claiming to be a "beacon of towniness." What have you done that you couldn't or wouldn't have done as scum?
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Post Post #764 (isolation #61) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:23 am

Post by Mina »

Ampersand, why no thoughts on Ghatokaca?
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Post Post #789 (isolation #62) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:53 pm

Post by Mina »

bazinga, did you read F-16's entire post when you voted for them, or just the paragraph about BROseidon?
Ghatokaca wrote:I didn't find their reads in to be all that bad. Mina, I am not seeing your reasoning for pushing UT based on the fact that you disagree with his gut. That doesn't really make much sense. It is almost like you are trying to forcefeed them as to what their gut should say which is somewhat meaningless and the "
if you're using gut to read her, then you should be townreading her
" is just completely ridiculous because you are expecting someone else to have the same gut reads that you do.
Why do you think their reads aren't bad if you're townreading notscience, bazinga, and Malakittens? Also want to hear Nacho's reaction to that post.

For one thing, if he says, "I suspect these people--why? Gut, yo!" then people have to evaluate him on his reads alone rather than on his justifications for them. Even if he'd said something like "this post is oily" or "they give me a cold calculating vibe," then I could find his reads plausible even if I'd disagreed with them. Instead, he spewed a rather convenient (Osseus's was the third vote on Malakittens, and notscience was superficially scummy, so I disagree his reads were too controversial for scum) list and handwaved it as gut. (Also, with a point he cribbed from Hanzo and BROseidon.)

For another, gut reads are intuitive and based on experience. They just
click
. If someone has GUT scumreads on three people who give me GUT townreads, then I become suspicious that "gut" is a codeword for "bullshit." Those reads don't feel in the right place. Malakittens I guess isn't
impossible
to gut-read as scum because of all the hedging (although he also gave an "objective" point that was unoriginal). But...bazinga?
notscience
? (Everything "scummy" about notscience is superficial objective stuff, not nebulous gut vibes.)
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Post Post #800 (isolation #63) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:12 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 789, Mina wrote:bazinga, did you read F-16's entire post when you voted for them, or just the paragraph about BROseidon?
I'm serious. I want an answer to this.
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Post Post #803 (isolation #64) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:17 pm

Post by Mina »

Spoiler: Don't vote Ghatokaca, notscience.
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Post Post #808 (isolation #65) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:00 pm

Post by Mina »

mollie, I'm getting whiplash right now.

If you read that post, then I find the meta accusation pretty unfair, considering he provided meta in exhaustive detail for several players. I mean, look at me. I've promised to meta at least three people this game and not bothered to do any of it And yet you voted him for missing
one
game out of ten? That reads list was incredibly in-depth (I was tempted to skim it, but I'm glad I didn't!), and showed more nuance, attention to detail, and deliberation than something like Medea's effort-post.

On that note, in retrospect, I think CES was right about that post. It's off that penguin and Cabd are in lockstep to every single stance. I mean, you'd think there'd be at least ONE read where they'd go, "Cabd has them as a strong townread, but I convinced him to downgrade them to null-town." Just look at how out of sync the other hydras are in this game. It does read like they concocted a list of reads and then each made up justifications to suit them. And the penguin quotes were egregious upon a second glance. I blame chamber for making me paranoid!

Whee! There's order and balance in my world again.

I'm tempted to sheep all the people saying penguin wouldn't play like this as scum (although she was nominated for Don Corleone), because see the second paragraph, but I feel like Nacho/F-16 are overthinking the elaborate reasoning for their penguin townread. Any scumbag worth his salt white-knights the occasional shitty mislynch target. I mean, scum aren't
idiots
.
In post 780, BROseidon wrote:^That list.

I can't even...
Do you think it's a scummy list?
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Post Post #810 (isolation #66) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:36 pm

Post by Mina »

It's not subtle at all. I'd wanted to hold back at first to see if anyone else saw what I saw. But I think Ghatokaca is town right now.

Are you saying Ghatokaca is scum? Why? Thoughts on his big reads list? On this post? Are you accusing one of their subtle defenders (name them) of being scum?
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Post Post #812 (isolation #67) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:27 pm

Post by Mina »

You did explain it, yes.

Oh, I think it's {Medea, BROseidon, Osseus, Toasty} now! Ampersand, why are you still scumreading Hanzo after this post?

For people who doubt that Malakittens and notscience are town:
In post 798, notscience wrote:fwiw that last post sounds kinda town
In post 799, Malakittens wrote:
In post 796, bazinga wrote:mala I think the best play as town is to pester your townread with non-alignment questions and then discredit their reads.
Yes, I'm discrediting your read on Nacho based on the fact you aren't accurate all the time in reading him and someone wants to sheep you because he claims you are accurate as hell in reading him. After the open game you wagoning nacho just because you think he's scum based on 'hey guise I can read him' isn't going to fly with me.

How about you actually work with me and if I'm telling you that I dislike your townreads talk to me about it instead of making little potshots at me.
In post 802, notscience wrote::facepalm:

I have a bad feeling in my gut
I also keep stumbling across townish Malakittens posts from earlier.

Not the reason I'm leaning town on him, but a minor detail I like about F-16's reads is that the two "unconventional" null reads (chamber and Zdenek) are the people tunneling on him. It's subtle, but how I'd expect town to see the game in his shoes.

People should be unvoting Ghatokaca right now.

By the way, I noticed like a zillion questions from Ghatokaca to me that I didn't answer. Why didn't you guys follow up on any of them? Most of them are obsolete, but re: Zdenek, I find him pretty readable most of the time. As town, he's a very dogged player who's prone to tunneling, and shows more passion. As scum, he's more aloof and mechanical ("robotic," to reuse my pet term). The way he's hounding you and Medea for contradictions is his town self.
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Post Post #815 (isolation #68) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:59 pm

Post by Mina »

That's the most constructive thing you have to add on this page, chamber?

Instead, couldn't you have either taken my thoughts on Ghato into account or made an actual effort to show me where I'm wrong? Frankly, I don't give the slightest shit if the best way to describe your stance on Ghatokaca is tunneling or strongly attacking.

While you're talking to her, Bert, can you get her to explain what the vote hop onto and off of Ghato was about?
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Post Post #817 (isolation #69) » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:12 pm

Post by Mina »

Fair enough. But when you're done, I'd actually appreciate being persuaded one way or another, since Ghato isn't as solid as some of my other townreads ATM.
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Post Post #882 (isolation #70) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:28 am

Post by Mina »

Zdenek, I'd classify Ghatokaca as nulltown, since I don't know how strong F-16 is as scum.

I'm giving that post a more thorough look. What impressed me was the shitload of research F-16, did as well as the nitty-gritty attention to detail. I don't know if there's any particular observation that makes me go, "Holy shit, he's town", but I liked all the "I looked up these three past games to show that this person reacted in a similar way!" stuff. Maybe I'm just projecting because I wouldn't put that much effort into justifying fake reads.

And he looks like he's scrutinizing every single player in minute detail. There are throwaway comments referring to his thought process that are fakable but still add to my overall general impression that he's scumhunting rather than posting words.

I also liked the same post that notscience did.

The "convenience" of the targets didn't bug me all that much, because it feels like most of my town reads have been converging on roughly the same people.

There are small things I don't like. F-16's tone is quite aloof, for one. I do see mollie's point that he could have used his meta time more productively (shouldn't metaing BRO be a priority over showing the same townread everyone in the game has on mollie?), and so it could be for show. I felt like the chamber one in particular is superficial attacks on his playstyle. And why was Zdenek in null if F-16 said he agreed with my townread after the meta research?) Also feel like some of the stuff in the townreads is unnecessary padding. And why did I go from your sole confident townread of the game to just "a decent townread"? My question about gut alone gave you a scumread?

Nacho, you're complimenting F-16's reads post, but don't you disagree with a bunch of them?
In post 868, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:are yall bitches chinese, you're obsessed with walls

love our ghat vote
Why?

Also, engage with me. Read my ISO and CTRL+F Osseus if you don't like walls and respond to the things I've asked you.
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Post Post #883 (isolation #71) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:29 am

Post by Mina »

In post 834, Ampersand wrote:Lynch Poseidon Today; lynch UTlurkerscumhydra Tomorrow; win by PoE.

Everything else is irrelevant.
You're boring. :(
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Post Post #885 (isolation #72) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:40 am

Post by Mina »

Bertmollie, does F-16 also do a lot of research as town on really obvious reads that shouldn't be worth supporting with references?
In post 867, chamber wrote:
In post 865, bazinga wrote:mebbe next time you might want to clarify who's answers you will find acceptable?
You didn't answer my question.

I wasn't asking what people thought, it was a combination of a statement of incredulity that someone could get a read from his content this game + a question to explain where such reads were coming from because I just don't see it.
Even without taking into account bazinga's read, I just feel intuitively that he's town. His vote hops and paranoia look organic. And his play is kind of loose, spontaneous, and unconcerned with appearances.
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Post Post #886 (isolation #73) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:53 am

Post by Mina »

In post 839, BROseidon wrote:
In post 812, Mina wrote:Oh, I think it's {Medea, BROseidon, Osseus, Toasty} now! Ampersand, why are you still scumreading Hanzo after this post?
So the fact that I've been calling Medea scum all game now counts for nothing?

What the fuck people...
Not really. Your stance early on actually fits well as distancing. Medea's vote is a bit aggressive, but not impossible from a partner given the heat you were under. Anyway, that's my suspect pool. (Might throw Ghato/Hanzo/possibly-Ampersand back in.) You're obviously not all scum. Do you think I care about interactions on D1?

Have to get off the computer. But what frustrates me most about your slot is that the stuff making you most likely to be town is also the stuff that's poor, disruptive play and that you're using as WIFOM in your defence while being aware of your meta.
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Post Post #934 (isolation #74) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:07 am

Post by Mina »

In post 930, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:holy shit, did you see Zdenek's vote on us was TERRIBLE. calling us a scumread when it was an obvious opportunistic lurker vote was scummy as fuck. you guys are seeing that right?

not sure how to read chamber jumping off.

but holy shit zdenek
ARGH!

You are getting lynched today.

Is this not sinking in? You are getting lynched.

The only way you will not get lynched is if both of you get off your bony* ass and give us the tiniest reason for why we should NOT lynch you. Pretend to actually read the game and scumhunt. You don't think I'd like to have a townread on you and narrow my suspect pool? Or just happily vote BRO right now and take Ampersand's word that you'll apparently become obvtown on D2 if we're wrong?

Give me a reason to think your reads this game have not been generated by random.org or change with the wind. I've asked you like five million questions, and you've ignored every single post I've made in your direction. If you are town, then I am seriously pissed off right now. You are playing against your win condition and actively TRYING to be useless.

Also, Toasty's vote was worse than Zdenek's. I should add a TOASTY IS PROBABLY SCUM line here so that I don't put all my eggs in one basket with my D1 reads if it turns out the people I've actually been focusing on are town. And a HANZO MIGHT ALSO BE POTENTIALLY SCUM ONCE I DO THE META RESEARCH. (My secondary win condition is to be right on D1 for a change.)

*someone give me points for that!
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Post Post #952 (isolation #75) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:47 am

Post by Mina »

^Were those last posts also T-Bone?

Sorry for the verbosity (at least I don't think I'm the worst offender in this game for once!). My problem with your Mala read is that I don't find it impossible to verbalize gut feelings. Anything particular about those posts that set you off? How did it make you feel?

Also, can you honestly describe yourself as "obvious town" with a straight face? Even you've admitted that you've been a lurky nonentity this week--there was no real reason to think you were
town
. I feel as though your confidence both in your innocence and your scumreads is bluster.

You could actually be right about Ghatokaca being scum, though. Doing some rereading. Ghato, why is your vote on Osseus instead of BROseidon. And where's Nacho's comment on the big post? There's stuff in it that really should have set him off.
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Post Post #954 (isolation #76) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:52 am

Post by Mina »

UNVOTE: Osseus

If you'd said T-Bone, you'd have been confirmed scum. :P
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Post Post #955 (isolation #77) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:55 am

Post by Mina »

Just VT and no flavour?
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Post Post #957 (isolation #78) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:14 am

Post by Mina »

F-16, your tone reminds me a bit of Empire-scum. There's no bite.
In post 935, bazinga wrote:
In post 934, Mina wrote:Also, Toasty's vote was worse than Zdenek's.
How?
Well, Zdenek is town for other reasons anyway. But he's been saying for ages that his top suspects are Osseus and Ghato, and that he wanted an Osseus scumflip to indict Ampersand (FWIW, I disagree--I've heard CES give the argument before that we shouldn't lynch [insert readable player who looks momentarily scummy on D1] multiple times).

Toasty's case is literally, "Look, you posted these unhelpful things." And he jumped off an actual scumread and swung momentum to a policy wagon.

I'm not sure I get your other question about Osseus, and any answer I give would be bullshitting because my confidence levels have been fluctuating erratically this game.
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Post Post #979 (isolation #79) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:05 pm

Post by Mina »

I don't know who I want to vote right now. .___.
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Post Post #1007 (isolation #80) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:32 pm

Post by Mina »

- ghatty things I will honestly be too chickenshit to vote them /kills self checks in with bert.
This is kind of how I feel right now. I'd prefer another day to explore this read more.

To be fair, I'm also feeling chickenshit about voting BRO.

I hope I'm not underestimating UT's scum meta, because some of his arguments and bluster are really over-the-top, but this is miles above his Abarat play.
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Post Post #1009 (isolation #81) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:49 pm

Post by Mina »

I kind of want to make a list of stuff I dislike about Ghatokaca, except that might actually push people to vote them when, like, F-16 has a few town posts. Instead, I'm going to push the much superior wagon of...

*clears throat*

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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Post Post #1011 (isolation #82) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:56 pm

Post by Mina »

About this game, or about me? If it's the latter, I'm using, "too scummy to be scum" in my defence.
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Post Post #1012 (isolation #83) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:57 pm

Post by Mina »

^that post was partly flippant.
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Post Post #1016 (isolation #84) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:04 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1013, bazinga wrote:
In post 1007, Mina wrote:This is kind of how I feel right now. I'd prefer another day to explore this read more.

To be fair, I'm also feeling chickenshit about voting BRO.
yeah I feel like you are talking around the wagons that are forming. you are lining up your ability to lynch whomever during this day phase. at this point after seeing you play in this game I kinda wanna see you harping on people esp. the people under pressure <3
I'm pretty much aware that this is how my play looks from an outside PoV (although I'd argue I'd be a lot more subtle as scum). But I think I've been plenty readable elsewhere in this thread, so I'm invoking my waffle privileges.
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Post Post #1022 (isolation #85) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:12 pm

Post by Mina »

But...but...

*sobs*

I preferred when I thought they were really town, because then I could at least rail self-righteously against this lynch and push a BRO wagon.
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Post Post #1027 (isolation #86) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:25 pm

Post by Mina »

UT, you're a lot of fun when you start playing the game.

Consider this my promise not to post until I come back with actual stances.
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Post Post #1030 (isolation #87) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:33 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1028, chamber wrote:That's pretty boring.
Yes, but I don't think someone would appreciate catching up with three or four pages consisting entirely of AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHs.

I'd request that no one hammers until closer to deadline, because I need to do actual rereading/research.
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Post Post #1032 (isolation #88) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:36 pm

Post by Mina »

GAH, WHY DID YOU CLAIM YOUR ROLE RIGHT NOW?

WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS SOUND TOWN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY CLAIM VT.

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.
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Post Post #1038 (isolation #89) » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:45 pm

Post by Mina »

Omigod.

I...I'm not the only one of my kind?

Hold me.

Tammy, you can join us in AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH-ing, too! It's a party in the insane asylum!

...right. Stances. Uh, Mina is town. That's totally a stance.

(That was @bazinga, and crossposted with like a page. Ehhhh...Osseus, I don't think Ghatokaca is a good D1 lynch, is what it boils down to. They're more protown than obvtown, but still feel like there isn't enough reason to think they're confidently scum and I'd rather give them time to play the game. Let me reread Toasty--and Hanzo/BRO/Medea.)
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Post Post #1092 (isolation #90) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:59 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1077, Ghatokaca wrote:
In post 1075, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:there's not a number of words or QUESTIONS you can DEMAND ANSWERS to that's going to make me say "oh, I guess he's town"

I'm not intimidatable that way
I'm ignoring you because I'm not in the best of moods at the moment and this game isn't helping much. I'm saying what I want to say now because I haven't had the best of luck throwing out last wills on my own time and I've regretted every time I haven't gotten to post before stupid shit happens. If you like me at all at a person or don't want to be an absolute shithead, please recognize that I'm not in the best of places at the moment and stop engaging. Thank you.
*hug*
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Post Post #1097 (isolation #91) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:56 am

Post by Mina »

1) I don't feel comfortable lynching Ghatokaca right now--too much of their posting and reactions look town. However, my paranoia was resurrected by reading some old games and seeing posts of F-16's that were a lot more prickly and focused on suspects than his bland "look at how generically helpful and eager I am to be protown and spew words at people" tone. (Also saw his MD thread in which he vowed to play differently from how he is in this game.) It coincidentally overlapped with Osseus looking a lot more town and also pushing you.

Also, some points in your first catch-up wall felt perfunctory (the post you liked of mine to Toasty was ridiculous, as well as the token "not-cience-is-scum"). It left me in an uncomfortable place where I didn't feel comfortable either white-knighting you or pushing your lynch. Because I think you can both fake this play.

2) I won't defend myself today unless people actually take chamber up on his offer. I will say that I know I'm being antitown and digging my own grave with some of my posts at deadline, and that it's frustrating because I'm pretty much incapable of changing this behaviour right now. Also, there's a reason I feel forced to make token waffling posts as scum. (It's not to push an agenda, because frankly, it'd be REALLY easy to justify hopping on any of Osseus/Ghatokaca/BRO right now while still keeping my hands clean and looking like a thoughtful, paranoid townie.)

3) You're right that UT's confidence on you is over-the-top rhetoric. But my experience is that his scum and town play are so literally night-and-day that I'm not going to lynch him D1 for playing with a boldness I think he's only capable of as town. Also, given that Mala's first posts were a bit jumpy (although it improved quickly), it meant he hadn't completely pulled his read out of his ass.

4) Not all my thoughts make it into the thread. My CES paranoia waned as my Medea paranoia waxed, partly because I saw his points were valid, partly because gut is fluid, and partly because his votes and stances have felt in character for him. Fenchurch wasn't the tone as much as all the references to their hydra discussions, which looked real. I didn't like Fenchurch's last post, FWIW. But also, I've felt as though engaging with their slot is a waste of time, because they ignore most of what I ask them and are barely active. And I've got into the trap before (see the Zach game where you were scum) of bombarding CES with nitpicky questions. So I've been deliberately dialing it back and choosing not to focus on him. This might change tomorrow.
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Post Post #1146 (isolation #92) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:42 pm

Post by Mina »

Ughhhhhhhhhhh.

...

...

VOTE: BROseidon

Are people really sure penguin isn't scum? I really don't see anything there that couldn't be faked by anyone halfway competent.
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Post Post #1149 (isolation #93) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:46 pm

Post by Mina »

Gah.
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Post Post #1150 (isolation #94) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:46 pm

Post by Mina »

GAH.
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Post Post #1153 (isolation #95) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:50 pm

Post by Mina »

UNVOTE: BROseidon

Ugh! I hate you!
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Post Post #1155 (isolation #96) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:54 pm

Post by Mina »

I hate this game. I hate myself. I hate everyone else in it. I hate myself for voting BROseidon. I hate myself for unvoting BROseidon. I hate myself for not voting Ghatokaca or Osseus. I hate myself for whichever of them I'll end up helping getting lynched (either through action or inaction). I hate myself for not starting a counterwagon on Hanzo or Toasty or Medea. I would have hated myself more when it turned out they were all town.

Penguin, it's mostly gut and a sense your slot is really passive.
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Post Post #1184 (isolation #97) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:12 pm

Post by Mina »

It's not your vote that made me jump off, Medea, although it did compel me to unvote more quickly.

Ghato and Osseus are "safer" wagons. But Ghatokaca has enough protown and genuine posts that I don't want to lynch them D1. And Osseus I still don't feel comfortable lynching for meta reasons (and won't unless I do some research before the deadline and find out I'm misjudging UT
in before T-Bone has been impersonating him or something
).
In post 1133, bazinga wrote:
In post 1084, Ghatokaca wrote:I also think that Mina is scum. Her primary strengths as scum are looking town and AtEing as well as getting away with all of that wonderful "oh look at me, I'm waffling!". I don't like her treatment of the Ampersand hydra. I think that her paranoia on CES is not as transparent or vocalized as it would be if she were town (she gave us "oh this is totally scum CES" and then nothing more) and I thought she dismissed Fenchurch far too quickly for tone reasons and pretty much nothing else (and her paranoia with CES didn't match up to her completely falling for Fenchurch). I also don't like her reaction to UT lately, regardless of his alignment. I actually think its a little less likely to be coming from scum partners since its pretty blatant and horrible, but it also could come from scum-Mina who is discovering there is less heat on her partner than there should be.
mina comment on this plz tia
Already did.
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Post Post #1191 (isolation #98) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:22 pm

Post by Mina »

Zdenek, do you have links?

I'll be gone for the next hour or two, but will be back before the deadline.

Anyone who'd consider a wagon other than Ghatokaca or Osseus, speak now.

People I absolutely will not lynch: chamber, Zdenek, bazinga, Malakittens, notscience (and BROseidon is a suboptimal lynch now)

People I want more information to be sure of: Ampersand

Remaining: Ghatokaca, Osseus, Medea, Hanzo, Toasty

Goddammit. Goddammit. Tempted to compromise on Ghato or Osseus just so another claim isn't outed.
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Post Post #1192 (isolation #99) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:23 pm

Post by Mina »

Did T-Bone ever substantiate his claim he could "read Nacho like the back of his hand"?
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Post Post #1199 (isolation #100) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:54 pm

Post by Mina »

Never mind. My phone isn't charged, so I can't go running yet, anyway.

notscience, why did you vote BRO when you did?

BRO, flavour?

p-edit: are you saying that you were deliberately trying to look scummy today...AND NOW YOU'RE CALLING THE TOWN DUMB FOR RIGHTFULLY VOTING YOU FOR THE STUFF YOU'RE ADMITTING WAS SCUMMY.
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Post Post #1203 (isolation #101) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:58 pm

Post by Mina »

;___________________________;
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Post Post #1206 (isolation #102) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:04 pm

Post by Mina »

I'm sorry, BRO...


The flavour checks out, by the way:



To the reread mobile!
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Post Post #1220 (isolation #103) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:39 pm

Post by Mina »

I'm almost thinking BRO shouldn't shoot (particularly if there's evidence of a redirector) and we should just take his word for it. But that's mostly because I've been feeling like BRO vs. Medea is looking like TvT and degenerating into meta nitpicking.

Of course, this still doesn't solve the issue of whom to lynch instead.
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Post Post #1231 (isolation #104) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:32 pm

Post by Mina »

NO.

YOU CAN'T MAKE ME.

It might not be too late to wagon Osseus...
In post 1228, Ampersand wrote:Poseidon is still probably scum, although I recognise that lynch isn't that likely to go through at this point. We'll switch votes to Nachohydra before deadline if necessary.
...really?

Thoughts on Osseus right now?
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Post Post #1238 (isolation #105) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:45 pm

Post by Mina »

Here's the MD thread. I know there was at least one non-ongoing game that was mentioned in a Skype call and involved Vi, and I stumbled upon F-16 posts and thought the tone was different there.
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Post Post #1269 (isolation #106) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:56 pm

Post by Mina »

chamber, is Ampersand scum? I think they might be. The lack of read on UT is off.

On my phone and will be back in half an hour. Mala is the only reason this isn't a no-brainer for Ghatokaca. Frankly, I find BRO's rage looks pretty genuine right now.

VOTE: Osseus placeholder.
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Post Post #1282 (isolation #107) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:03 pm

Post by Mina »

VOTE: Ghatokaca
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Post Post #1306 (isolation #108) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:15 pm

Post by Mina »

You said you were scumreading him, but hedged a lot on it. I wanted a clear should-I-sheep-you-blindly answer.

Also, okay, I think Bro's reactions to being wagoned have been MUCH better than Ghato's. Also, Hanzo's latest post means there's probably like one scum at most on the Ghato wagon.
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Post Post #1322 (isolation #109) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:27 pm

Post by Mina »

Mala has implied she's not an actual vig, and it's just set-up speculation making her outguess it, though. (My last post was to chamber about Ampersand.)

Will get to a computer in a secomd, but I think his rage at the town looks quite real (as opposed to his early posts I found fakeable) Meanwhile,your slot has little things I don't like (it feels like your scumread on Osseus and doubting of BRO's claim were convenient, and you seem too nonchalant about your imminent lynch). I also ISO'd one of your scumgames earlier and didn't see a massive difference.
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Post Post #1332 (isolation #110) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:31 pm

Post by Mina »

notscience, BRO will not coast to endgame as an unproven vig!

...argh. Questioning Mala on this is really awkward.
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Post Post #1340 (isolation #111) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:37 pm

Post by Mina »

chamber, you don't think it was really antitown to out Malakittens like that? You've made her role completely useless now.
In post 1335, bazinga wrote:i built you a sandcastle and named it after Tammy, it throws caution to the wind and does not forbid waffling
<3

Spoiler: Tammy
Image
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Post Post #1371 (isolation #112) » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:51 pm

Post by Mina »

1) The "Gahs" were because BRO's softclaim got me skittish, NOT because of Medea.

2) I sincerely wish this was a parody of my town game. It's not.

3) Compare this to Marketplace, where I lurked through most of the deadlines.

4) You and BRO are probably both town.

VOTE: BROseidon
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Post Post #1395 (isolation #113) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:59 pm

Post by Mina »

V/LA until Monday, February 24th.


Hey, CES and Fenchurch, you guys logged off the Internet and just went to bed straight after the lynch, without paying attention to the wagons?
In post 1385, bazinga wrote:
In post 1375, BROseidon wrote:PL Mala->Ambersand->Medea->Ghato
we talked last night and intend to sheep the shit out of Bro

VOTE: Medea the Alien
As much as I disparaged his reads earlier on D1, I'm pretty sure the scum are all in that list with the possible addition of Toasty.
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Post Post #1399 (isolation #114) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:12 pm

Post by Mina »

Because Ghatokaca rushing in with a giant case on me both completely demoralized me and made me think that he was town for putting that much effort in right before his lynch (and I changed my mind on that almost immediately after the hammer). I know my original post had no vote, but at some point in the preview edit to that, I just saw the timer and bazinga's utmost refusal to switch, and I just panicked and lost confidence. (I didn't even see your no-lynch chicken post, because I was rushing to submit my vote in before the deadline.) In retrospect, I should have taken the no-lynch, and I knew I'd fucked up as soon as BRO posted. It was a horrible decision on my part, and I'd probably find it suspicious from an outside PoV.
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Post Post #1402 (isolation #115) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:25 pm

Post by Mina »

Malakittens, why were you so adamant at the end of the day that F-16 and Nacho were town?

Also, Hanzo is really town for this:
In post 1279, Hanzo_5 wrote:That lynch embargo hiding behind hes town cuz of meta.

Can we lynch me instead of an UNCC'd PR claim? Im clearly the worst player here and like i doubt i will be NK'd you guys really want me in LyLo.


P-EDIT: That scum mina vote split. Hammer someone.
chamber, both BRO and Medea said scum had a roleblocker/something to interfere with the shot. I remember a "no lynch + shoot" plan crossing my mind at one point, but I was completely acting under the assumption that BROseidon would never get to shoot (or worse, be redirected). And it doesn't matter whether you were there to hammer BRO if necessary. Every single person on the BROseidon wagon who was online was refusing to switch, so a Ghatokaca wagon would have been impossible. But I should have pushed harder for Ghatokaca.
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Post Post #1404 (isolation #116) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:29 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1321, Malakittens wrote:Guys seriously,

someone hammer BRO because he's scum.

I don't see F-16/Nacho being scum at this point, I really don't.
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Post Post #1406 (isolation #117) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:37 pm

Post by Mina »

...no, I'm expecting you to explain where your really strong town read on them came from, and why you're arguing now that it had nothing to do with Nacho/F-16 being town, only with BRO being scummier?
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Post Post #1408 (isolation #118) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:39 pm

Post by Mina »

(I mean, yes, I get that your role made you think BROseidon was confirmed scum--which is plausible because [REDACTED]--but I'm not asking why you voted BROseidon. I'm asking about your read on F-16/Nacho, since you outright called them really unlikely to be scum.)
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Post Post #1414 (isolation #119) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:15 pm

Post by Mina »

ToastyToast wrote:well that last second BRO wagon was definitely scum-driven. Like, we were divided between two people (ghat and Osseus) and you guys somehow decide to lynch BRO? I agree with notscience's current reads, just not sure if Medea is the best choice (over ghato)

I need to rethink some of my town reads...
vote:ghatokaca
Hey, you know what would have helped save BROseidon? If you'd bothered to show up for the deadline instead of leaving your vote parked on Osseus and forcing BRO to be lynched. You don't get to berate us.

Vote: Ghatokaca
for now. I'm in the middle of explaining why.
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Post Post #1416 (isolation #120) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:23 pm

Post by Mina »

Don't you dare blame it all on me. IF I DIDN'T HAMMER, SOMEONE ELSE WOULD HAVE. It was literally the only lynch possible at that point. I'm not going to defend my horrifically awful play at deadline, but it's not like most people were much better.
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Post Post #1418 (isolation #121) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:27 pm

Post by Mina »

They outright said they were refusing to hammer Ghatokaca and wouldn't move!
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Post Post #1419 (isolation #122) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:28 pm

Post by Mina »

(Well, in all fairness, I was no longer confident Ghatokaca was the better lynch when I'd hammered, anyway.)
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Post Post #1422 (isolation #123) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:33 pm

Post by Mina »

Um...
no
? I assumed you were just bullshitting so she wouldn't get nightkilled, so played along.
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Post Post #1426 (isolation #124) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:50 pm

Post by Mina »

Mina, Hanzo offering himself up as a deadline lynch at an hour before deadline when nearly everyone was on Ghatokaca or BRO wasn't townie. No dice. It was a wholly hollow offer that wasn't going to be accepted. And frankly, if Hanzo's town, which is looking less and less likely, in saying that he was implying that he doesn't have a PR that would be worthwhile to the town and so is reducing scum's pool of where to find PR threats. Not seeing town-Hanzo here.
Can't make up his mind whether to blame Mala or Mina for the BRO lynch, generally plays anti-town as discussed above, pushing the idea that scum-Mala would soft-CC town basically to save a presumed scum buddy-Ghatokaca from the lynch while leaving both of them implicated = I'm happy to lynch him.
Do you actually believe a word you're arguing here? "Which is looking less and less likely" (how is it that impossible Hanzo could be town with these players)? A less experienced player accidentally softclaiming RI being scum BECAUSE OMIGOD, UNWITTINGLY REVEALING YOUR RI STATUS IS ANTITOWN, NO TOWNIE HAS EVER DONE THAT, HE'S SCUM? Null flaws in his argument, which have some connection to skill level but none whatsoever to alignment? Taking his question to me completely out of context (he's calling me incompetent and Malakittens scum)?

Are you kidding me?

He's town because
it looked really genuine
.
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Post Post #1427 (isolation #125) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:51 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1424, Hanzo_5 wrote:Yeah whatever, lynch me now then might as well get it out of the way its not like my opinion is being respected as it is.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hanzo_5

This is part me helping town in the long run and part me giving up. I feel like certain people in this game have a personal problem with me. And the rest of the people in this game think I'm too dumb to have good ideas. I think I will just stick to the newbie que.
Awww. :(

Please don't self-vote. Medea is either scum or playing really badly (look at their attacks on BRO after his claim). Everyone else thinks you're town.
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Post Post #1430 (isolation #126) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:56 pm

Post by Mina »

And Hanzo, you might have been right about Ghatokaca. Malakittens has completely painted herself into a corner if she's scum, so I don't think her motivations make sense unless she was REALLY afraid of the vig. And there's still a town explanation for her behaviour. Mala, is there a good reason for you not to just fullclaim?

The main thing holding me back on Medea is the roleblocker thing, bazinga.
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Post Post #1434 (isolation #127) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:03 pm

Post by Mina »

Hanzo, can I give you a hug? :(
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Post Post #1451 (isolation #128) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:35 pm

Post by Mina »

Does it end the day?
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Post Post #1457 (isolation #129) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:37 pm

Post by Mina »

...

...

...then...

...that...

...that isn't a useful protown role or dayvig at all.

THAT'S A REALLY ANTITOWN ROLE THAT JUST STRONGARMS THE LYNCH.

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah,
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Post Post #1461 (isolation #130) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:40 pm

Post by Mina »

Your role did not even slightly conflict with BRO's. As in, there is not a single mod on this website who would call a role like that "broken" in conjunction with an X-shot dayvig (particularly when X might have been 1). And when your role isn't even a killing role, and is in fact a relatively weak town role.
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Post Post #1462 (isolation #131) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:42 pm

Post by Mina »

Why did you not just claim on D1, Malakittens? Or even use the role at the end of D1? I mean, if you were convinced BRO was scum, why not use it to force us to lynch him instead of Ghatokaca?
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Post Post #1469 (isolation #132) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:52 pm

Post by Mina »

(I should mention it's possible Dorothy Gale is actually scum in this set-up, since the Wicked Witch of the West is actually the heroine defeated by her. And Mala
could
be claiming her real name rather than her fakeclaim to bolster the flavour. But Dorothy is portrayed as naive and well-meaning in the book/play, so she also works as town.)

And the whole thing is that it's not an additional town-controlled death--it's replacing one majority decision with your personal decision. It's not completely unheard of for both roles to be in the game. But either way, it wasn't your place to unilaterally decide that both roles were incompatible and then mislead us by only giving us partial information! Had you said nothing, he would have been nightkilled, or lynched down the line if he couldn't have proven his ability. There was no reason not to wait another day.

Sorry if I'm being a bit bitchy. I'm just...so, so, so, so, so annoyed by this game right now. I'd thought maybe BRO being a JOAT meant he'd lied or Mala was also some kind of vig. Something tells me BRO's posts in the dead QT are not very happy.
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Post Post #1472 (isolation #133) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:57 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1468, Malakittens wrote:
In post 1467, bazinga wrote:Are you gonna use it today
I rather have people's thoughts in regards to it first. I rather optimize it to its full affects rather than hipfire it. If I used it now it would be on Hanzo most likely. I don't like his play so far; I'm trying to take out my feelings about him tunneling me and to let it go. I don't like those who tunnel and those who don't listen in regards. Look how well Mara and I went out in too many heads when I kept reaching out to her to stop tunneling me.
Please don't use it on Hanzo! He's become really obviously town.

The only reason to use it is to prove you
have
the role, but I don't think you're faking it. You're either a town gladiator or a scum one. And if you do use it, wait until near the end of the day, on an approved target.
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Post Post #1475 (isolation #134) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:06 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1470, bazinga wrote:What do you think of Chamber's response in post 1464 above?
Right now, I'm thinking much less about whether it's a plausible counterclaim than whether it's a counterclaim that ever should have happened. I need more from Mala, but I'd say town if I had to guess.

And you basically cannot towntell harder than a newish player offering to be lynched multiple times for the good of the town. There's nothing less survivalist and more completely disingenuous and well-meaning. I've never seen something like that come from scum, and seen it several times from town. Never mind replacing out because his reads were ignored. Trust me. He's town. If you gladiate him, then sorry, but I'm voting you. :/
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Post Post #1480 (isolation #135) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:18 pm

Post by Mina »

Q: should I finish writing what turned into an actual case on Ghatokaca
and get lynched by chamber
, or get two hours of sleep before work and keep some of my cards closer to my chest so that Ampersand will find it harder to buddy me? I feel like I'm being too transparent this game.

p-edit: chamber, I think you missed my implication. Of course it's not "important" for determining her alignment. But it's more important to my emotional state. Also, yelling at people is totally reaction-testing...or something.
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Post Post #1486 (isolation #136) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:27 pm

Post by Mina »

Goddammit, bazinga! I wanted to go to bed.

Goddammit, chamber! I
didn't
want to go to bed.

And I'm glad you said that, because their case on me was the part I had trouble evaluating objectively. My initial reaction was, "omigod, I'm playing terribly and look scummy ;______;." But then I felt like much of it boiled down to, "Look at this post of waffling, WHICH SHOWS NO TOWN INTENT. And this other post expressing emotion, WHICH ISN'T HELPING THE TOWN AT ALL."
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Post Post #1488 (isolation #137) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:47 pm

Post by Mina »

*saves draft*

*goes to sleep*

I should mention that Nacho's posting
before
the BRO thing went down actually looked pretty genuine. I won't mention this in the actual case because it takes away from my argument, but I'm not actually sure I want to be sheeped and don't want to misrepresent things...

...I'm not good at the whole "stances" thing, am I.
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Post Post #1489 (isolation #138) » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:48 pm

Post by Mina »

(as in, his AtEs after F-16 claimed RI.)
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Post Post #1598 (isolation #139) » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:38 am

Post by Mina »

But you stayed online after all this, just stopped checking the thread? Also, CES posted more than once. Which post

I'll be disappointed if your slot is scum (there's a lot that fits with it, although not everything does), because the hydra dissonance would be a cheap and lazy approach to take.

I mean, I know from personal hydra experience that CES is really stubborn, but it's not like he physically prevented me from posting or never ever compromised on anything. You've told us 1) you're just so overwhelmed by the pace, but totally did all these ISOs and spreadsheets, 2) you're unsure of everything, but here are vague reads which you won't follow up on, and 3) you have strong opinions...which you won't talk much about other than they clash with CES's. But there's no evidence in the thread itself that you're scumhunting. You're not pressuring or questioning anyone (which I know town-you is capable of, and which wouldn't conflict with CES's votes and reaction tests).

Frankly, I'd much prefer to se than take your word that it's happening offstage. I mean, if you're town, don't you see your slot will almost certainly wind up lynched down the road? CES actually called BRO claiming to be X-shot (which was the protown move) suspicious. Really? You sat back and let him say something that scummy and patently untrue? Clearly, his approach to the game isn't working (sorry, CES, but the vote park on Bro and justifications were absolutely terrible) so you have to jump in!

(On a side note, ONE IS A NUMBER. If X can be any integer, it can also be one. Hell, in a mini, one-shot was my first guess. Also, I said Dorothy works as town or scum, and the main character not being a fakeclaim is weak.)
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Post Post #1599 (isolation #140) » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:48 am

Post by Mina »

^to Fenchurch. More I want to say, but I'm on my phone and running late. (Couldn't scroll up to the beginning of that post and edit it--also, it's not letting me do line breaks now for some reason, so UNVOTE: Ghatokaca so they're not L-1. Also, repeating "No town could poxxibly waffle this much or be this melodramatic, so it must be an act!" as common wisdom won't make it become true, psrticularly when I do this practically every game and am in fact much more subdued and let things run their course without calling attention to myself as scum.
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Post Post #1642 (isolation #141) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:49 am

Post by Mina »

Nacho, you realize I'm V/LA, right? That's the only reason why I'm not talking much about you right now, or about lots of other stuff like Medea's claim and chamber's bazinga vote. And you also realize that my vote was on you for most of today? I think your slot has an extremely high chance of being scum, for reasons that mostly don't involve me. On Monday, I can talk more about it, as well as what was going through my head (the time pressure meant I didn't do the best job of communicating all my thoughts, and so my posts were all over the place). I find it harder to be objective about the me stuff. If you're curious, I DID find it off that you approved F-16's stance. You KNOW this is at worst null. I didn't mind your D1 paranoia because of Marketplace. As for your recent posts...does anyone I'm not scumreading (e.g., not Ghato or Medea) seriously think I'm scum and want answers to anything in particular? Because most of the points Nacho has made on this page have been stretching (you seem a LOT more interested in presenting out-of-context quotes or random sloppy off-the-cuff posts as scummy to the rest of the town than in pressuring me on my motivations for certain opinion shifts), but it's a waste of time to rebut points unless someone's fooled by it.
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Post Post #1643 (isolation #142) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:57 am

Post by Mina »

WHY IS ENTER NOT WORKING? To add to my post above, Nacho scumreading me for other reasons and arguing that people shouldn't be fooled by my waffling, fine. But letting F-16 use it as the centerpiece of his case is really fucking disingenuous even if he's tunneled town.
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Post Post #1644 (isolation #143) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:31 am

Post by Mina »

Actually, to give more helpful answers than "Shut it, scumbag!":
In post 1633, Ghatokaca wrote:
In post 1231, Mina wrote:NO.

YOU CAN'T MAKE ME.

It might not be too late to wagon Osseus...
In post 1228, Ampersand wrote:Poseidon is still probably scum, although I recognise that lynch isn't that likely to go through at this point. We'll switch votes to Nachohydra before deadline if necessary.
...really?

Thoughts on Osseus right now?
Really what?
The implications should have been obvious. You're really going to stick to that vote? You really think Bro's reactions are scummy? You really believe what you're arguing here? That's really all you have to say about everything you missed? It was a pretty poor post from someone I expect to know better.

Now, what motivation did asking that question serve?

And I think my rant answered all the other stuff about my reaction to your scumread on me.
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Post Post #1663 (isolation #144) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:49 pm

Post by Mina »

Why are you pushing stuff so naively?
This isn't at all the response to that post I was hoping for. Right now, I'm really not pushing anything--I'm trying to lock down a read on you. My point is that I've seen little from Fenchurch that looks like scumhunting, just reports of conversations in which scumhunting might have occurred. I've seen a lot from you that looks shady. If she's town, now is when she should be stepping her game up. At this point, genuine posts about behind-the-scenes dissonance aren't going to cut it for your slot.

You also really don't seem all that defensive or insulted by how I trashed your BROseidon read, or all that remorseful about fucking up.
I don't have a clue what you're talking about.
I'm surprised you actually bothered to respond to a gibberish question that obviously wasn't edited properly.

Did you already know that Fenchurch was online when I logged into Skype after the lynch? (chamber, can you corroborate this?)
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Post Post #1664 (isolation #145) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:15 pm

Post by Mina »

(There's a reason I'm not voting Ampersand despite that.)

Just one last quick point before I get ready, since someone is waiting for me. I don't think Hanzo is town because he was in serious danger of getting lynched instead of BROseidon for his offer. I think he's town because his offer looked really genuine. And this became a super-firm town read when he followed up on this today and then offered to reeked protown motivation. This is Scumhunting 101. This is much more town than Klick's replace-out request in Marketplace. Why didn't it cross your mind, Nacho/penguin/Cabd? (I know F-16 gave a reason for town-reading Hanzo anyway, but it was a crappy WIFOMy reason...which apparently swayed Medea over the actual obvious signs of Hanzo's innocence. Seriously, what is up with you and Medea? I feel like both of you pulling this gambit and playing in lockstep like this is too ridiculous for a scumteam together...but my gut is screaming that everything about your interactions is wrong.)

By the way, chamber, something tells me that I will wind up killing you when we hydra for the Reckoning Invitational. bazinga is a much wackier scumread than I am. The problem with only looking for individual fuck-ups is that town are often sloppy and make posts that can be read as scummy, or maybe are having an off-day, or aren't concerned with appearance and say something awkward or have a weird opinion. What are you trying to accomplish with a lone unexplained vote on an obvtown slot? (Also, WIFOM and all, but I'd actually thought the Zdenek kill was a massive point against Ghatokaca.)
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Post Post #1665 (isolation #146) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:18 pm

Post by Mina »

By the way, my tiers:

Ghatokaca, Medea, Ampersand, Toasty
Osseus, Malakittens (need to do some research on UT to lock in Osseus's position)
chamber, bazinga, notscience, Hanzo
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Post Post #1666 (isolation #147) » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:22 pm

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: And this became a super-firm town read when he followed up on this today and then offered to replace out for the good of the town, which reeked protown motivation. It felt really, really genuine.
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Post Post #1706 (isolation #148) » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:36 am

Post by Mina »

chamber, you are hilariously undiplomatic. I'm a bit confused by why you think CES is playing at a "reasonable depth" but is also scum, though. I'm not sure I get your definition of depth.

Can someone more objective than me who saw my deleted exchange with Ghatokaca culminating in my vote let me know if you think it was OMGUS? Because right now, part of me wants to spite them by not waffling at
all
on their slot and tunneling on them blindly until they're lynched.

Hey, Osseus, you never explained why you can "read Nacho like the back of your hand." Come to think of it, I don't think that you ever explained why Ghatokaca is so scummy
in this game
. (Most of the scummy aspects of their play are more burden-of-proficiency arguments.) And whatever happened to your Mala, bazinga, and notscience scum reads?
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Post Post #1707 (isolation #149) » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:37 am

Post by Mina »

(The Osseus stuff is in response to a deleted post.)
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Post Post #1742 (isolation #150) » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:02 am

Post by Mina »

Ampersand, why are you jumping toward the assumption that one of them is scum rather than that they're both town (which they are, and I am going to slap them both)?

(Fenchurch's explanation for the Skype thing makes sense, because I saw her online until I went to bed and doubt she was up until seven GMT.)

p-edit: Osseus, did you see my big post on why I don't think Medea and Ghat can actually be scumbuddies, as easy as it would make the game?
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Post Post #1754 (isolation #151) » Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:35 am

Post by Mina »

Fenchurch, your post kind of read to me like fanning the fires between both of them.
chamber wrote:
In post 1747, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:What would it take you make you seriously consider either of them again?
My only considerations at this point are lynching mollie, being lynched, or replacing out. I have no desire to continue playing with her. Its looking like it will be the latter.
Both of you need to grow the fuck up. You have different playstyles, but that shouldn't make you completely incapable of seeing the other's PoV and
fathoming
that someone could approach the game in a way you don't. (Also, chamber, I'd have probably reacted a lot worse than mollie did to some of your comments. It's not like she ever threw personal attacks at you. And frankly, if I was going for "town = absence of scum," I'd be scumreading you.)

How about you just take my word that you're both town and stop interacting with each other? I legitimately enjoy playing with both of you, and wish you weren't replacing out, chamber.

Who else will read Ampersand? We're depending on you!
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Post Post #1757 (isolation #152) » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:01 am

Post by Mina »

...Mollie, can you just apologize to chamber so you stop hating each other, please? (I thought her posts were relatively benign, but I'm an asshole who's probably said worse to people this game, so I understand being offended.) I still feel like taking away personal grudges from this game is silly. It's all a big misunderstanding, and you're both cool people who are just very different from each other.

chamber, if you're really going to replace out, can you at least explain why you think CES is playing? He's certainly
capable
of playing with a lot of depth, but I'm not sure 1) how much of it is manifesting itself in the game thread in this particular game (but I don't read between the lines that much), and 2) why you think he's scum anyway.

Also, both of you are good Mafia players (and are playing better than the majority are this game), so all the shit about "OMIGOD, SHE'S NOT PLAYING WITH ENOUGH
DEPTH
"/""HE'S NOT EXPLAINING HIS READS ENOUGH"/"I CAN'T SORT YOU SO I'll JUST LYNCH YOU"/"YOU'RE *SCUMREADING* ME WHEN I'M OBVIOUSLY TOWN"
(because no one would EVER do that .__.
) is ridiculous. Sorry. I'm telling you this from an outside PoV.

The scum are still in {Ghatokaca, Medea, Ampersand, ToastyToast, Osseus}--Mala is like a wild outside chance, but there are quite a few glimpses of towniness there.
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Post Post #1762 (isolation #153) » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:31 am

Post by Mina »

Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:
I don't rightly care why you were town in other games or whatever you tried to prove by linking a bunch of games. THIS game is what matters. I think townblocs are not good, you and others disagree, that's fine, no big deal.
This is a strategy that I feel is scummy.
Why does it make you town?
YES, YOU'RE ONTO HIS BRILLIANT SCUM STRATEGY THERE OF, UH...remind me of what it is again? HOW SCUMMY OF HIM.

...hey, Ampersand, whatever happened to that reread of UT? Are you waiting on whether the rest of the town decides he's scum or town so you don't actually have to follow up on your promise to read the slot on D2?

I'm so mad at myself now for not just sticking with a low-cost VT lynch on D1.
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Post Post #1763 (isolation #154) » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:37 am

Post by Mina »

bazinga, chamber is just...naturally undiplomatic and blunt to a fault. I don't think he intended it as a personal attack (although frankly, I'd have been put off in your shoes, too). The example you gave with the people thinking you were in college also doesn't sound malicious--chamber can just be oblivious and insensitive like that.

Now can you just both apologize so I don't have to play the invitational alone?

THINK OF THE POOR OVERWHELMED BUTTERFLIES! ;_;
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Post Post #1830 (isolation #155) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:32 am

Post by Mina »

Katsuki, you want a Mina wagon...

...but have not actually read the game or a single thing I've posted...

HOW ABOUT YOU PROVE THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE MAGICAL ABILITY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO READ ME AND DON'T JUST LIKE CALLING ME SCUM EVERY SINGLE GAME BY SKIMMING MY ISO? I'm actually obviously town this game to pretty much everyone. (Ghatokaca tunneling on me D2 for a case that boils down to me
waffling too much at deadline
and not reevaluating is actually part of why I suspect them.)

Also, bazinga is obviously town, too! Stop that.

chamber, please come back! Mollie didn't intentionally offend you. Aaaaaaaah!
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Post Post #1831 (isolation #156) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:53 am

Post by Mina »

Okay, I'm probably being mean. Welcome to the game, Katsuki!

At this point, I think I'm completely incapable of being objective on Ghatokaca. Every time I seriously reconsider my read, they go, "Hahaha, look at that whiny, waffling scumbag waffle, pretending to be all
unsure
! Let's shove her in the toaster." And that just makes me want to go, "HOW'S THIS FOR WAFFLING?"

I...probably do not deal with suspicion very well.
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Post Post #1832 (isolation #157) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:04 am

Post by Mina »

(Speaking of which, why haven't Ghatokaca actually voted me yet?)
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Post Post #1834 (isolation #158) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:23 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1765, Ampersand wrote:And whatever you are doing you are doing it better than I am

Please can people stop scumreading us we are not scum
Gah. Having you in this hydra is unfair. :( You guys probably ARE scum, but I don't have the heart to vote you.

Actually, if there's no more than one scum between Ghatokaca and Medea, and all my town reads are correct, that means lynching among {Ampersand, Toasty, Osseus} gives me 2/3 chances at least of getting it right...

BUT the world will end if I waffle, so. No can do! ^_^

This game is not putting me in the best of moods right now. CES is probably right that Medea's vote on me (combined with that awful, "Shit, Ghatokaca might ACTUALLY be scum") is more objectively suspicious, since it came after Ghato's. Pity he's also probably scum for a variety of reasons, so I can't just mindlessly sheep him.
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Post Post #1835 (isolation #159) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:28 am

Post by Mina »

(There were some other Ampersand posts I wanted to respond to--in particular stuff about BROseidon--but they're lost.)
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Post Post #1836 (isolation #160) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:37 am

Post by Mina »

Oh, I guess I can apologize in case you're town and actually WERE insulted/offended by me trashing your BROseidon read. I do think his actual reactions post-claim felt town and genuine, as though he was finally coming clean and also really furious with us (similar to
Anything Goes
), and it was that more than his actual claim that made me want to spare him. (Also, leaving him alive for an extra night to tempt the scum NK/roleblocker, even if he couldn't 100% test his claim, was by far the smarter move. I'm surprised that didn't occur to you.) If anything, it's a compliment that I find it so off that you lazily went along with the claimed PR lynch.

I'd also like to apologize to everyone else in this game for just being my charming phase. For some reason, I've been very abrasive this day phase, and I don't know why.
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Post Post #1837 (isolation #161) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:45 am

Post by Mina »

Medea, I asked this before the deletion, but can you neighbourize multiple people in the same neighbourhood, or is it different neighbourhoods? Do you have more than one shot?
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Post Post #1842 (isolation #162) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:49 am

Post by Mina »

Ghatokaca wrote:
In post 1834, Mina wrote:Actually, if there's no more than one scum between Ghatokaca and Medea, and all my town reads are correct, that means lynching among {Ampersand, Toasty, Osseus} gives me 2/3 chances at least of getting it right...
Mina, I can't understand how you can waffle so much because it is unbelievable but this post makes me reconsider. I used the toaster analogy because Nacho was giving me suggestions on how to push lynches through by explaining that all it takes is conviction as opposed to logical reasoning. I've been trying to implement that but I am obviously doing it in a really "scummy" way. I really have no interest in pushing your lynch at this point because I have a hard time seeing you put up the same suspects that I did (minus you) as scum although it makes sense if we are both town and suspect the same people besides each other. This is me reaching out. Please stop tunneling us and work with me because if you are town, I'd say the scumteam is probably among {Ampersand, Toasty, Osseus} as well. I just disagree with your dichotomy of one of us or Medea being scum.
~ F-16
I'd have been more sold on this turnaround if it had 1) come earlier, and 2) been triggered by something other than my suspect list.

My suspect list has been {Ghatokaca, Medea, Osseus, Ampersand, ToastyToast}throughout most of D2. This isn't new.

Although the crash erased it, I'd written that huge post (which I don't think I'd have ever written as scum) saying essentially the same thing, but with more nuance and detail. Your reaction to that was, "Lol, die, scum!!!!"

Then I basically have a meltdown and make it obvious that the more you tunnel me and mock my waffling nature, the more stubborn you make me and wind up digging your own grave. All of a sudden, you've had an epiphany.

I could maybe believe you going, "Omigod, she's obviously trying to figure out the game because of X, Y, and Z that she did." Or even, "her reaction to being suspected looks sooo genuine."

But no. It's that my secondary suspects happen to be the same as yours? The same secondary suspects that I've had all game?

So much as I
want
to townread someone who does a squishy reach-out post to me, I feel like you're trying to manipulate me.
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Post Post #1847 (isolation #163) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:07 am

Post by Mina »

I'm writing a longer response to your other posts, but your last two are gibberish, Nacho. Please translate.
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Post Post #1859 (isolation #164) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:55 am

Post by Mina »

Omigod. I start responding to these posts, addressing individual points...







...and then throw my hands up, because I realize how fucking NITPICKY this argument is about. I don't even know where to begin.

Literally. Your case is, "Mina didn't respond quickly enough to me looking paranoid of her." And you're repeating it over and over, pretending that it's a smoking gun.

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

This is the most hairsplitting nonsense I've ever heard. Do you think you can read my mind, and predict exactly what town me would say at a specific point in time? Yes, how dare I ask someone a question or call Ghatokaca scum for a different reason first. WHAT I SHOULD HAVE SAID WAS, "NACHO, YOU'RE SCUM FOR SUSPECTING ME WHEN YOU...UM...APPARENTLY HAVE SOME MAGICAL ABILITY TO READ ME. DESPITE THE FACT YOU'VE NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWN ANY BETTER-THAN-AVERAGE ABILITY TO DO SO."

Particularly, "Why are you actually scumhunting when town!you would have been OMGUS-ing at me?" Are you...are you completely out of your mind? You're literally saying, "Mina is trying to play this game like a rational human being. She's scum, because everyone knows that Mina is a raging lunatic who's incapable of not insta-voting anyone who asks her a question." In general, I'm much less volatile than Tammy.

I've spent far more time this game than I should be screaming at people who suspect me. Look at my interactions with chamber. I've actually been making an effort to tone it back, because it's antitown. Do you seriously have the chutzpah to call me scum FOR NOT SCREAMING AT PEOPLE ENOUGH?

Earlier, you were calling me scum because apparently these kinds of AtEs from me are fake or something!

I don't even get it. Are you talking about Day One? Day Two? When is this "smoking gun" where I apparently ignored? It's a fucking huge thread. I don't even know what post I should have immediately pounced on of yours if I was town.

On Day One, I found your suspicions plausible, but didn't like your posting for other reasons. On Day Two, I started suspecting your slot (I never actually explained why, but it's more how your stances changed during the lynch), and outright said I couldn't evaluate the me-stuff objectively. Then you started...whatever the hell this is, with the bullshit appeals to authority.

Like I said, the only part I find
out of character
from Nacho (since you've never actually read me with better than average ability, so stop lying through your teeth by appealing to some magical cred you don't have) is that you didn't have a problem with F-16's case. That's sketchy as fuck. As for the other stuff...I don't even know any more.

I feel like you're crafting a scum narrative to fit my behaviour rather than seriously looking at the motivations behind my behaviour. And now, I don't even know what to think about this bullshit, contrived rhetoric, because it's so ridiculously
paranoid
and convoluted and completely stretchy that it's weird for a frame case. But you're pushing it like YOU HAVE FOUND THE ANSWERS. Ignore everything else Mina has done this game which makes her obviously town--I'VE INVENTED THIS IMAGINARY SCUMTELL FOR HER OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH.

What's worst is that notscience is dumb enough to actually fall for this. Like you supposedly told F-16, who the fuck needs logical arguments? REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT. BLIND RHETORIC.
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Post Post #1862 (isolation #165) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:12 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1843, Ghatokaca wrote:
I think that Mina is a very reactive, very transparent, very genuine player. I think that she puts a lot of pressure on herself on both alignments, and
I think that shows in thread when she is town
and I think it shows in the QT when she is scum.
She is very similar to Tammy in that she is able to put a body of work into thread, take pride in it, and when she's done she knows how town she is, she knows who will see it, and when people she is expecting to see don't see it or when people do poorly in recognizing it, she reacts and she reacts very strongly. As scum, she can't pull off those same reactions unless she thinks the case is horrible: I think that my case on her blindsided her because I hit a sore spot and that's why she ignored me. I can't see her going "I think you guys might be town but I'm not going to defend myself" because me suspecting her shows that something is either fundamentally wrong with her play something is fundamentally wrong with my play, but I can see her brushing me off like that as scum because we're close to deadline, she's not getting flashwagoned. I understand time restraints, but she definitely had time to respond, which she demonstrated in #1096. As town, she would have made it a priority to respond, but she didn't. That's my big smoking gun for Mina-scum, which I hope you'll look back on after we die.
The bolded (and the underlined in particular) is why I think it's
very off
that you didn't say anything to F-16 when he made a giant case on me based on me posting indecisive stuff for the sake of looking like conscientious town. You're pretty much describing my behaviour during the D1 lynch to a T.

You're saying F-16 didn't talk to you at all during the lynch? He just submitted that post without talking to you? And then, when you touched base during the night, you didn't go, "Yeah, I totally think Mina might be scum, but uh, you know, she really is that crazy all the time"? Not even once?

(Also, WTF, I've been playing exactly like the underlined since pretty much the beginning of this game? But I happened not to react in a particular way to...I don't even know, something you possibly said? I can't even tell if this is a giant piece of miscommunication and we're both talking about different things, because this thread is seventy-five pages long.)
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Post Post #1864 (isolation #166) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:15 am

Post by Mina »

Sorry.

I'll just ignore Nacho right now. He's probably baiting me on purpose into this by calling me scum for ignoring him.
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Post Post #1867 (isolation #167) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:30 am

Post by Mina »

Okay, I'm going to walk away from this game thread right now, because right now, I'm really not in the right frame of mind to be objective on Ghatokaca. If Nacho has actual questions for me that he wants me to answer, as opposed to blind rhetoric, he can ask them. I can also actually post what I'd started writing at the beginning of D2 on Ghatokaca, since it might explain my thought processes more. But I won't respond to them tonight.

If he's town, then he should know that provoking me is a complete waste of time. All that will happen is that I get pissed off...but since I've faked meltdowns as scum before, you'll just write it off as that. You're not really going to get a readable reaction. The only reason to continue this is either to discredit me or drown out the thread with noise.

I'm sorry to everyone for making the game unpleasant.
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Post Post #1870 (isolation #168) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:48 am

Post by Mina »

Let's all have a group hug!

I think the hammer is actually the weakest reason to suspect Ghatokaca.

Also, I know none of this is personal (and hope nothing I said came across as a personal attack!). I think Nacho is awesome as both a Mafia player and a person, even if I kind of want to throttle him in this particular game. :P I just get a bit carried away in the heat of the moment.
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Post Post #1872 (isolation #169) » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:24 am

Post by Mina »

Actually, I lied. But I'm gone after this.

Spoiler: Stuff Only Nacho Cares About
I scrolled back to 1096 to see what Nacho was talking about.

Is this is the post you mean? You find it scummy that I responded to some of the arguments, but didn't call you scum for suspecting me?

Honestly, I was a bit distracted by that point, and it's hard to be objective about cases on yourself, but I didn't find it that scummy? It occurred to me later that your points boiled down to "Mina CAN fake all the town stuff she's doing" as well as stuff that made me wonder if you and Ampersand were linked. But at the time, I thought it was plausible for someone who'd seen me recreate my town meta adequately in Marketplace. (What I retroactively disliked was the convenience of your turnaround on Osseus.)

I'm only reacting this badly
now
because it's been building up all game.

If that's your smoking gun, then it's pretty lame. You're attacking me for
not
acting like a shitty Mafia player.
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Post Post #1885 (isolation #170) » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:05 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1883, Katsuki wrote:
In post 1830, Mina wrote:Katsuki, you want a Mina wagon...

...but have not actually read the game or a single thing I've posted...

HOW ABOUT YOU PROVE THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE MAGICAL ABILITY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO READ ME AND DON'T JUST LIKE CALLING ME SCUM EVERY SINGLE GAME BY SKIMMING MY ISO? I'm actually obviously town this game to pretty much everyone. (Ghatokaca tunneling on me D2 for a case that boils down to me
waffling too much at deadline
and not reevaluating is actually part of why I suspect them.)
Last time you told me to "prove" and accused me of not reading the game aside from skimming your ISO, you were scum.

I'm not gonna get into a giant argument again like I did that game. It was depressing and I got neither of my scumreads lynched (you/hito and spyspy) :(
See, the key difference is that there, you'd been in the game the whole time and found every post I made scummy. And I was totally faking being angry/suspicious of you in the thread for misreading me, while privately, in the QT, I was going, "How the hell does he actually do it?"

This time, you haven't actually read my posts, which annoyed me because of the laziness involved. You've told me that you believe you can skim my posts and get a sense of my alignment without reading them. So I have confidence that you should take the time to ISO me, because then you'll figure it out (or I'll take an important lesson from it).

Other information you should know: your predecessor was pretty obviously town (so you won't get mislynched this game if you put a minimal amount of effort in), Medea has claimed to be Glinda-neighbourizer and Malakittens Dorothy-gladiator (the same variant you had in Anything Goes), the claimed vig flipped town JOAT after being deadline lynched D1, and the scum are in {Medea, Ghatokaca, Ampersand, ToastyToast, Osseus} by PoE.
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Post Post #1897 (isolation #171) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:45 am

Post by Mina »

Osseus, do you find Katsuki scummy?
In post 1544, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:4) If both wagons were town Ghat would have been lynched after sitting at L-1 for the longest time.
Did it ever occur to you how hypocritical this argument was?
In post 1772, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:I'm not going to debate merits on different strategies here. I don't put much stock into relying on meta either, but people do it anyway so the point is?
I'm not interested in what anyone's strategy is, scum and town can and do use the same strategies. It's how you use it that matters and that's what I'm looking for, I think I've been fairly consistent on this point.
Have I not been harping on F-16 not for using meta in general, but in the manner he has been using it? If NS townhunts that's fine, I'm not interested in what he's doing or even why he's doing it, I'm interested how he's doing it. I'm interested in HOW any of you go about your business because that's my strategy.
But you said making a town bloc "is a strategy I feel is scummy." You called the strategy itself scummy. Don't backpedal. Why did you feel it was scummy? Or why did you feel it was happening in a scummy
way
, if it's "how" that matters?
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Post Post #1898 (isolation #172) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:58 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1886, Ampersand wrote:With an outside chance of Mala.

I finally got round to ISOing the UThydra - I certainly don't see any UTtown in there and their D2 play especially has been boringly monolithic (which, admittedly, makes some sense given their position that all the scum were on the Poseidonwagon but that's a ridiculous position anyway). Some signs of a Toastypartnership too - his name is listed in red in but then in the body of text T-bone pushes the different angle that all the scum were on the Poseidonwagon specifically, a fairly convenient change given that they had expressed suspicion of Toasty previously.
Stop making fun of me. :(

Goddammit. I think you're scum. Unless you've radically changed your playstyle overnight. This is annoying. Where's chamber when I need him?

Can more of the stronger players start being proactive and readable? I feel like someone needs to lead, and it can't be me because 1) I'm not confident or skilled enough to carry a town, and 2) I'm descending into gibbering madness.
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Post Post #1899 (isolation #173) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:07 am

Post by Mina »

Actually, I don't even know.
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Post Post #1905 (isolation #174) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:47 am

Post by Mina »

p-edit: Oh, crosspost. Let me get to that.
In post 1875, Ampersand wrote:Nacho's points against Mina, while I don't them convincing enough to outweigh Mina's townier posts, make me feel better about that hydra. His vote does contrast nicely with Medea's in that it does actually have some venom behind it.
Isn't his entire case (which he's calling a smoking gun) that I didn't call him scum on D1 for having me as a suspect? Also, that if I were town, I'd be acting...exactly how I've been acting in this game? Do you think those are plausible arguments?

What do you think about Nacho not countering F-16's "Mina is scum because all this waffling has to be fake!" case?

I'll be interested in seeing what happens after F-16 and Nacho compare notes. My reasons for suspecting them are admittedly the most convoluted of my pool of five (which worries me because I don't have the best track record with these kinds of digging-beneath-the-surface reads), and I don't like how they fit with my other suspects, but there are several points I'm having trouble getting past.

By the way, I didn't like this post (it was attacking the weakest point against Ghatokaca, and the only thing you said D1 about them). They looked superficially protown D1, but I feel like you didn't put enough effort into analyzing their posts (although I guess you wouldn't have necessarily shown your work in the thread if you had). You should know what Nacho is capable of.
In post 1884, Malakittens wrote:Good4u.

This time the two players you voted I'm confident that one is town. Town off meta regardless of whatever breakdowns that have occurred this game.

The fact you don't really have any reads other than Mina, yourself and Bazinga. I'm just disagreeing with your Bazinga read.~
What made you go from thinking we were both town to just bazinga? Just that you think I could be distancing from Nacho? Even leaving aside your earlier reads, that post was in response to him voting ME.
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Post Post #1913 (isolation #175) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:23 am

Post by Mina »

UNVOTE: Ghatokaca

I'll respond to you piecemeal.

Nacho, I didn't want to keep up the interaction on Friday night because I was getting
extremely pissed off
. Didn't I make that obvious? It had been building up for a long time, with F-16 making constant jabs at me every time I showed any doubts and then Katsuki's antics. And then you came in proclaiming that you had this MAGICAL META TELL ON ME, and then people were actually taking it seriously when I thought my alignment was blindingly obvious. That's why I told you that if you asked me questions, I would respond another day.
But not tonight.


Part of it was that I couldn't be objective on your slot when I was too furious about your points against me, so interacting wouldn't lead to any epiphany other than "DIE, SCUM, DIE! YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT ME!". Part of it was that it'd lead to the thread becoming unpleasant (Malakittens' reaction made me feel guilty). I realized I'd just dig myself a hole. I'd spam more capslock posts at you, and then I'd lose all credibility because everyone would dismiss all my points as "lol two people bickering" or In fact, I was paranoid you were doing this on purpose. Didn't I say as much in the thread?

I was not in a happy place at that point.

And frankly, you didn't make much of an effort to engage with me. You were mostly throwing your rhetoric at other people.

(By the way, my "fake rage" at Tammy in Marketplace was mostly genuine--two teams, remember. Beyond that, I think the only A+ fake raging I did was at ProHawk on the last day
which I blame on being slightly tipsy at the time
. Anyway, if you know I can fake rage, you're probably looking for the wrong tells.)
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Post Post #1914 (isolation #176) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:02 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1911, Ghatokaca wrote:What do you mean by this? What's different from normal CES play style?
When I try to answer this, I sound like a crazy person. And now I don't really believe it anymore.

CES is usually whimsical, flippant, and unconcerned with appearances, but he's more of these things as town. There are also these moments sometimes when it feels like he's also looking at the game as a whole and evaluating everything. (That's actually what I liked about his earlier posts--"I have all these town reads, so these are the scum." Then I became paranoid because it was the same stuff other people, like me, had said.)

Scum CES tends to be more, I don't know, clinical? I guess I feel like he's been very guarded this game, and I got a bad vibe from his last two posts? It was all very technically correct and cold and...I don't know. "Yes, this group suspect is absolutely scummy! Trust me on it. Here's this potential link to this other scummy player, who I'm not voting either." And the point on Medea is the same one I'd made. That's leaving aside that CES took the convenient scum stance during the BROseidon wagon, that they're mostly not interfering with the town eating itself alive, and that chamber suspected Ampersand (which makes me feel stupid for not just sheeping him, although the N1 kill doesn't fit--I can say this now that chamber is no longer in the game!).

I'd also read the first few pages of Scumdon and got a similar vibe (although to be fair, he seemed more engaged there).

But then I ISO'd him to look for those quotes, and changed my mind again. :( Hence the "I don't even know."

Why did the hydra dynamics suddenly become a point in their favour, Nacho? They've been like this all game.
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Post Post #1915 (isolation #177) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:14 am

Post by Mina »

EBWOP: Also, I've actually seen games where CES is obvtown. It hasn't happened here, yet. (I should probably stop saying stuff that I'd consider "obvtown" from him.)
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Post Post #1918 (isolation #178) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:34 am

Post by Mina »

If that's true, then I just learned something very useful about you for future games.
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Post Post #1919 (isolation #179) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:39 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1902, Ghatokaca wrote:You know exactly where the post you ignored was: I can quote it again for you if you really want to go down that road, but mollie asked you why you were ignoring it earlier and you said you already responded to it.
Are we talking about #1083? (If so, I assume this was before you saw my follow-up.)

If it's not, then I don't remember which one. I vaguely remember mollie asking me to respond to the CES stuff (which I
did
answer). But this is a
huge
thread, so it wasn't malicious.
I never said I didn't have a problem with F-16's case: you said that I should have censored him on it before I posted it, which I pointed out was obviously not something that would happen ever. Do you disagree with that?
Didn't F-16 say you were both online and discussing reads at the time? Haven't you spoken to him once since the end of D1? I still feel like there should have been a moment.
what else have you done that makes you obviously town?
I normally don't like saying this kind of stuff, but since you asked...

Spoiler: A verbose paean to my towniness
For one thing, I feel like I've been completely transparent and engaged and open with my thought process and emotions since the beginning. I even messaged Tammy at the beginning to say it's a good thing this game came
after
Anything Goes and Marketplace III. I'm kind of confused by why it
isn't
obvious, unless it's just standard "competent scum player" paranoia.

I'm towntelling with almost every post I make. Even if I can fake maybe 3/5 of those towntells (hilariously, all of the points F-16 used in my favour in his big D1 reads list were superficial stuff, so I didn't like your tacit approval)...what kind of magical "EXTRA SUPER DUPER TOWN" do you need from me? I'm obviously scumhunting! I don't get it! What else could I possibly do? Are people actually reading my posts?

Concrete differences if I'd been scum: I'd be less attuned to the flow of the game. I wouldn't have been as comfortable in the thread early on or said stuff about enjoying the dynamic (because I'd have been too nervous to truly enjoy myself--as town, I was happy because I felt like I had some strong early reads and people were working together). I wouldn't have been as worried about drowning out the thread with noise or walls or spam (I was happy to do that in Marketplace). I'd be less sensitive to discord.

My reads would probably be more convenient, and less holistic and fluid. For example, I'd have focused more on individual instances of scumminess/towniness rather than looking at the whole game and working by PoE. Also, I don't think I'd bother faking, e.g., finding X less suspicious when X's suspect Y became more suspicious. Nor could I fake my mood swings and fluctuations in confidence. It should be obvious I'm a maelstrom of paranoia. I'm not pushing any agenda whatsoever (other than "get myself committed to an insane asylum").

Also, my D1 end-of-day stuff that locked F-16 onto me should have made me obviously town. I feel like it should be obvious that I didn't give a fuck what I looked like or how well I was communicating my ideas at the end of the day, and was just spamming the thread with whatever random paranoid thought crossed my head. Remember how in Marketplace, I lurked throughout the KingdomAces lynch while privately going in the QT, "Shit, I hope no one notices they look town." If I wasn't invested in lynching scum, I could have easily done that here with Osseus or you. (Ironically, given BRO's flip, that means I'm more protown as scum than town.) And if you're town, you should know there was no agenda in waffling the way I did on you.
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Post Post #1927 (isolation #180) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:30 am

Post by Mina »

In post 1924, bazinga wrote:mina what is with all your self-meta gibberish
Pay attention. Nacho
outright asked me
for self-meta. I spoiled it because I figured no one else in the game cared.

...Nacho, if I'm not just a paranoid lunatic and this HAS all been a brilliant scum strategy to make me look bad (or just make the thread unreadable with my walls), you are Machiavelli.
In post 1921, Katsuki wrote:
In post 1918, Mina wrote:If that's true, then I just learned something very useful about you for future games.
What may that be? You're already incredibly familiar with the way I play.
I don't think you got the implication, and it doesn't really matter. Just know that
one day
, this will be used against you. :twisted:
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Post Post #1929 (isolation #181) » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:02 am

Post by Mina »

I had to switch to my phone. Last thing I want to say to Nacho is that regardless of my alignment, bad reasons to suspect me will piss me off more than good reasons, and that it's frustrating to be told that my genuine reactions are fake, or not OBVTOWN MINA enough. Anyway, I'm at the point where I can actually believe Nacho's suspicions of me and attempts to discern my alignment are real. I still need to resolve some of F-16's posts and their D1 hydra dynamics.
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Post Post #1940 (isolation #182) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:59 am

Post by Mina »

Medea the Alien wrote: Technically Nacho asked you what you'd done that was so obv-town. Playing to your own definition of self-meta isn't really an answer for how you've helped the town. I mean, according to you, you hammered the wrong player at deadline. If you actually feel badly about that, it's a pretty significant negative to overcome in your self-assessment.
*headdesk*

Obvtown literally means, "obviously town." Not "helping the town." Nacho didn't ask about my actual results--lynching scum =/= not LOOKING like scum.

I'm giving you one post to backtrack and come back with a more plausible reason to scumread me for that post. Go!
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Post Post #1944 (isolation #183) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:16 am

Post by Mina »

Medea the Alien wrote:He asked what you'd done. Posting in a particular style, especially when said style means that you hardly stand behind anything, doesn't cut it for me.
He asked me what I'd done
that looked obvtown
. Not what I'd done.

I'd accuse you of barely skimming and only making the most superficial analysis if all you took away from that giant wall is, "I'm town for posting in a particular style"...

...but since the most commonly pushed case of the day right now is, "Ghatokaca is scum because they were at L-1 and not hammered," you're still doing better than average.

(Speaking of which, I'm still confused by why Ghatokaca hasn't voted me all day.)
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Post Post #1945 (isolation #184) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:33 am

Post by Mina »

I feel like I'm being an enormous bitch right now, but I'm starting to get to the end of my rope.

Have most people read the bulk of the game thread? Have they reread their suspects' posts? Does anyone actually give a shit right now?
In post 1943, ToastyToast wrote:Also I DID have a town-read on the chamber slot, but katsuki has managed to destroy that read in just a few posts.
What has Katsuki done in his first posts that he only would have done as scum, other than be Katsuki and therefore mislynchable?

(If anything, there are clues that this is town!Katsuki.)
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Post Post #1948 (isolation #185) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:30 am

Post by Mina »

But they might be town. And you might be scum.

;_____;
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Post Post #1949 (isolation #186) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:38 am

Post by Mina »

(On second thought, maybe I don't have the right to chastise anyone else for their play this game.)

I don't suppose you could walk me through your slot's read of Ghatokaca this game? I feel as though you've barely mentioned them.

Also, why aren't you voting for the "UTscumhydra" like you were planning on D2? Does Medea's neighbourizer claim affect anything at all for you?
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Post Post #1950 (isolation #187) » Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:38 am

Post by Mina »

(I mean, don't you find Nacho pretty readable? I find the lack of strong stance earlier a bit off.)
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Post Post #1973 (isolation #188) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:48 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1965, bazinga wrote:
In post 1913, Mina wrote:Nacho, I didn't want to keep up the interaction on Friday night because I was getting extremely pissed off
he may not actually think you're scum, as he has said multiple times, cos it's like a process in getting what he needs from you.
In post 1955, Ampersand wrote:Medea - I think null; CES thinks scum. CES still feels most strongly Medea is scum, based on various points (the list of reads on Day 1, the unconvincing push on Mina Day 2, other non-specifics). Whereas I think Medea bringing up the info about the roleblocker on Day 1 is a point in their favour, given their full claim, and the support for that claim from chamber. I believe that it does really say that in their PM (it seems an unlikely thing to fabricate, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone make up something as specific yet trivial as that), and as a scum-neighbouriser, I don’t think that it would have mentioned whether their ability can be roleblocked or not. Although part of me wishes I could follow CES' read on Medea, because he is so certain, and a large part of my resistance is just my gut. If I was going to lynch one of the power role claims, I'd prefer it to be Mala. But it's plausible that both are town-roles, since neither are especially overpowered, so I'd currently rather lynch neither. (CES says that I am too easily blinded by their PR claim, and that townies tend to let scum get away with fakeclaims too easily.)
and you are agreeing with your partner to vote Medea over people in your lowest collective tier because....
Having hydra'd with CES before, I find this
EXTREMELY
plausible. <_<

Actually, uh...now I think Ampersand is town again. (I wish CES had said more about their D1 Ghatokaca read, though.)

To believe that Ampersand is scum, you'd have to believe that they have no motivation to actually manipulate people or push wagons or post fake-cases or analysis that would win them town cred. However, they have LOTS of motivation for performing an extended LARP called "Hypothetical
Wicked
Mafia Where They're Both Bickering Town." Do you think what they do in their free time is fake arguments about the game rather than actually post in it?

There's no agenda being pushed. The way they're disagreeing in-thread feels more like actual transparency and mismatching playstyles than an excuse to fence-sit on reads. I could buy some of it as acting or Fenchurch just posting what she thinks she'd say as town (I'm afraid I'm underestimating Fenscum, since she's smart enough to fake plausible scumreads), but not really to this level. So many little details fit--random references to conversations they had, Fenchurch trying to understand CES's conviction in Medea scum... It's also kind of similar to Fenchurch posting the PMs she sent to the mods overnight while claiming tracker in Scumdon to show her thought process.

Also, their individual reads are very consistent, with Fenchurch's reads being more by-the-book and CES's more intuitive. (All the observations from the CES side feel very consistent with my experiences hydraing with him, although I'm admittedly terrified because of chamber's scumread.)

That said, Fenchurch, what changed between the last time you called Hanzo townish and the big reads list? Also, when were your most recent scum games on the forum?
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Post Post #1975 (isolation #189) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:04 pm

Post by Mina »

In post 1965, bazinga wrote:he may not actually think you're scum, as he has said multiple times, cos it's like a process in getting what he needs from you
Have you read the rhetoric coming from that slot about me? "Burn the waffle man! I'll be town once you get a Mina scumflip!" Most of their posts on me (barring Nacho's this weekend) have been tailored to other people. And yet, inexplicably, no vote.
In post 1962, Ghatokaca wrote:A lot of people have Toasty as a scumread but no wagon on him.

VOTE: ToastyToast

Best lynch for today. Medea, Mina, Kats, Ampersand, Malakittens: join us and make this happen.

~ F-16
F-16, have you and Nacho spoken recently? Thoughts on this post? On anything Nacho said this weekend?
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Post Post #1980 (isolation #190) » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:14 pm

Post by Mina »

p-edit: bazinga, that was Ghato's vote I was quoting.
In post 1955, Ampersand wrote:Eh, I didn't have a problem with the X-shot argument; I figured it might well be a scumtell because a town X-shot would have incentive not to claim that, in the hopes of being killed even after using up their shots (e.g. CES refusing to full-claim as a 1-shot Doctor in the Scummies Invitational). Since you bring it up though, I checked with CES, and his reasoning was actually the timing of when and the way BRO claimed X-shot: "it didn't sound like someone who had chosen to hold something back, saw it was potentially causing problems and went in to rectify things; more like he was changing his fake claim offhandedly and maybe laying groundwork for not being able to prove his claim". My issues with the BRO lynch were purely that it would be better to wait and see if he could be confirmed, and that he was most likely to be town anyway because of flavour.
I was more focused on him claiming "X" instead of the actual number.
In post 1967, Medea the Alien wrote:Not sure I wouldn't prefer Osseus if Mina's not viable. I'll try to sync with Cabd soonish. Although ToastyToast might influence my Mina read. Hmph.
Thing about Mina is that her posts do read as being invested in the game, but the emphasis doesn't line up in terms of leaving a definitive trail.
Sorry for the uncertainty, hopefully I'll be more useful post-sync.
Can you elaborate on this?
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Post Post #2010 (isolation #191) » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:18 am

Post by Mina »

...no.

If this keeps up, I am actually going to start white-knighting Ampersand. There is no way that last Fenchurch post came from scum. None at all. They go in bazinga-notscience-Katsuki-Hanzo tier now.

I have to do actual work now, so I can't concentrate on this game. Right now, I'm leaning toward an Osseus vote, just because some of Toasty's flailing hit the right notes and I also found Osseus's vote switch fake, but still need to look at some past UT games. And I don't like that Osseus and Toasty are both "easy." (That said, by PoE, I think any scumteam has to contain 1-2 of them unless someone like Mala or Hanzo is suckering me. I've seen plenty of new players drop towntells like Hanzo's and wind up lynched anyway, only to flip town, though, so I don't want to overthink this read.).

It could be Medea-Toasty-Osseus, I guess. (Bus-happy Ghato-scum would be plausible, but not sure I buy Toasty and Osseus's sides of the interactions.) Except I agree with Fenchurch that I wouldn't expect BOTH to be pushing the Ghato-is-scum-for-being-alive angle (for the same reasons Ghatokaca and Medea are a weird scumteam). The stuff holding me back on Medea scum is admittedly just tiny gut "eh, this post kind of looks genuine" stuff--also, penguin taking the lead in their slot is probably a towntell.

I do want to say that although I
want
to buy F-16's fluffy post, and will probably wind up giving him another day for it, my gut isn't completely settled. I still feel like not everything fits, and the turnaround on me is very abrupt and convenient--also, I still don't like F-16's habit of going, "This behaviour is a protown behaviour, which I do to be protown, and which I have done in the past." Maybe it's playstyle differences, or maybe it's because I was recently scum (and had strong scum partners) and know stuff like that isn't impossible to fake. Some of it feels like he's emulating what a "reach-out"
should
look like. Also, that slot's hydra dynamics are
weird
.
But actually playing the game is a bit more involved than I was prepared for…
Tell CES it's his fault for being unreadable.
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Post Post #2011 (isolation #192) » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:25 am

Post by Mina »

*waffles*
In post 1998, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:in other news we will compromise for Toasty. I dunno if I agree with bazinga about Ampersand, but that slowwwwwwwwwww creaky 2 day warmup to vote us from Ampersand is lulzy as fuck. was really expecting them to actually put effort into the read instead of IIOA but what can you do
I'd like:

1) Ampersand to respond to this.
2) Osseus to explain what he means about that last line. Where is the "IIOA" accusation coming from?

Preferably in that order.
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Post Post #2039 (isolation #193) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:05 am

Post by Mina »

Malakittens, don't use your shot yet.

I have a mystery scum read right now. However, you don't get to find out what it is until tomorrow morning! ^_^

(Ampersand being scum would be logical because of the stances they're taking, but I just don't see some of the hydra discussion--in particular, that long quote about feeling disengaged and disfranchised--coming from scum at all. Fenchurch felt pretty different in the two scum games I read of hers, too.)
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Post Post #2043 (isolation #194) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:19 am

Post by Mina »

bazinga, except her wasting her shot now is the same thing as her getting nightkilled before she can use it?

This is me, making an effort not to post anything waffly in the thread this time around.
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Post Post #2047 (isolation #195) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:47 am

Post by Mina »

Hey, CES, would you be willing to 1v1 Osseus?

UT, you seem pretty quiet for someone on the verge of being lynched.

Bah, F-16's gladiator post was irritatingly townish.
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Post Post #2049 (isolation #196) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:52 am

Post by Mina »

In post 2025, Medea the Alien wrote:Then there's the sense both me and Cabd have had today that you're happy to say there's one scum in {Ghatokaca, Medea the Alien} like you're setting up to lynch one of us today and the other tomorrow upon a town flip from the first.
Actually, it's the opposite. I don't think you can both be scum, which was holding me back on lynching either of you.
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Post Post #2050 (isolation #197) » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:02 am

Post by Mina »

In post 2012, Ampersand wrote:I'm not really sure which bit we need to respond to. Why we're voting for them now? Well personally I'd be happy with lynching any of: Osseus, Toasty, Ghato, and for me it's mainly PoE. CES is incommunicado right now (he travels back to Holland most weeks for a day or two for university stuff); but he's already given his explanation in thread. He found UT possibly scummy from Day 1 but thought it was too early to be damning. He did the ISO-read a few days ago, and gave the reasons he thought were scummy in post #1885: lack of town-ness, pushing a silly case, inconsistency on Toasty.

BTW I'm back to seeing Ghato as possible-scum. I wanted to check if F-16 had ever been lynched D1 as scum, and it looks like he hasn't, so I now think the 'this is humiliating' comment in #1030 is a null tell; he might think it as either alignment. Plus another meta-scan shows that he is a) equally verbose as scum, and b) totally willing to call his scum-partners town, so I don't think the Ghato-Medea mutual townread isn't especially indicative either.

- Fenchurch
But...

1) These aren't the reasons at all you were townreading Ghatokaca (wasn't it his reach-out to me?).
2) Nacho is a busser and also white-knighting Medea.
3) You didn't even list Medea among your top suspects. You're using the non-impossibility of a connection to someone you aren't scumreading as a point against Ghatokaca?
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Post Post #2067 (isolation #198) » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:52 am

Post by Mina »

VOTE: Ghatokaca

I'll be back before deadline.

bazinga, what did you decide when you'd "talked it over," haven't you already talked it over when you first voted Osseus, and why were you urging Malakittens to use her gladiator when you apparently hadn't decided? In fact, why were you urging her to waste an ability...so scum couldn't NK her before she could use that ability?
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Post Post #2068 (isolation #199) » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:57 am

Post by Mina »

My motives for this choice are somewhat ruthless. But I wish UT could be more unambiguously town right now. It would make this much easier.
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