Mini 1547 - Wicked Mafia (Game Over!)
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I think I am going to make you miserable, just a warning in advance~In post 25, Hanzo_5 wrote:UNVOTE: Notscience
VOTE: Bazinga
I dont like hydras, my vote will remain here until there is a better place for it.
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I vaguely like that Hanzo_5 basically made two RVS votes. Not sure why mollie's atypically ceding D1 hydra control to Bert, and hydra head impersonation shenanigans don't help.
Mina, null or scum on Osseus?
Mala's about as town as I've ever seen her.
--PA
Don't love this. Nothing I can put my finger on. Cabd's probably going to have a better handle on him for now though.In post 41, chamber wrote:And then NK me so that I'm in fewer games.
Mina, null or scum on Osseus?
Mala's about as town as I've ever seen her.
--PA
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5283668
Reminds me completely of Hanzo. (HP was town, fwiw)
Reminds me completely of Hanzo. (HP was town, fwiw)
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That and the general attitude towards them re being willing to vote them in lieu of anything else from the get-go. It was more a "this is a case that shows that this is not specifically something that only scum does and so because of this past case I am treating it as null"In post 110, Zdenek wrote:Are you just talking about their takes on hydras?In post 108, Medea the Alien wrote:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5283668
Reminds me completely of Hanzo. (HP was town, fwiw)
I realize that this game is moving somewhat fast, but just because my phoneposting doesn't touch your favorite questions doesn't mean they won't be answered in good time. But since we're on the topic, why don't you tell me; how many posts from a user does it take to have a townread, at the minimum? One? Ten? Twenty? 100? Where's the bar set?In post 131, Zdenek wrote:So you aren't bothered by the fact that Medea gave an early, unjustified, town read on Bazinga, thinking that it was Mollie posting. Hasn't explained the town read, despite people asking about it, and hasn't commented on the fact that it wasn't even Mollie posting at the time?
As far as it being the other head posting, if anything that strengthens the read. If he'll forgive the statement, Bert's recent scumplay has been so utterly shit that I can't see him rocking off these terrible games and leaping into the forefront here, going as far to playfully impersonate the other head. Mollie OTOH is crafty enough as scum that she'd be sending out "mebbe X drew scum" reads on players, and using her "perfect meta" to drive lynches that way. She's not. She's town.
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In post 168, Zdenek wrote:It's not a number of posts thing. It's a quality of the explanation thing.In post 164, Medea the Alien wrote:how many posts from a user does it take to have a townread, at the minimum? One? Ten? Twenty? 100? Where's the bar set?
Here you are, then.In post 164, Medea the Alien wrote: As far as it being the other head posting, if anything that strengthens the read. If he'll forgive the statement, Bert's recent scumplay has been so utterly shit that I can't see him rocking off these terrible games and leaping into the forefront here, going as far to playfully impersonate the other head. Mollie OTOH is crafty enough as scum that she'd be sending out "mebbe X drew scum" reads on players, and using her "perfect meta" to drive lynches that way. She's not. She's town.
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I think part of this stems from different ways of looking at hydrae. Do you prefer to think of it as one player one slot, or do you prefer to think of it as two players who happen to be lovers and limited to one vote? That shapes how you approach hydrae in general, so I'm curious to hear your answer.In post 170, Hanzo_5 wrote:I view hydras that do not sign there posts as intentionally being confusing. In my experience, Many hydras do that. Thus, i do not like hydras.
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=36760In post 173, Zdenek wrote:What scum games of Bert's are you referring to?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=36259
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I could answer this with citations, but I think I'll let mollie tell you what scum-me does with her in the picture early game.In post 175, Zdenek wrote:I think there is more of a problem with injustified town reads early in the game, since it's an easy way to buddy a player, and my impression is that doing that with Mollie could especially beneficial since she gets emotional.
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I see her throwing out the reads, sure, but I don't see her jumping up and down screaming to get them lynched. Do you? Do you see her citing "perfect reads" and "I'm always right" and driving through a wagon? Hell, she even stated her current vote is wishy-washy so much that she had to have bert on board to make the vote.
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If the PTSD gets too bad, there's always liquor.
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Do tell.In post 195, Mina wrote:competence reasons
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Actually I was the one who thought it was odd that mollie was giving Bert such free reign upon him saying that he'd been imitating mollie. I sign my posts when in-hydra, for future reference.In post 205, Mina wrote:Except that read came from penguin (?) and before Bert had even outed his ruse (in fact, the read was mollie looks town).
You're also hardly the only one strongly reading Mala as town.
Also, as far as Mala jumping on Hanzo for hating on the hydras goes, if we needed any further proof that this is town-Mala, scum-Mala wouldn't be trying to derail anything that might eliminate hydras with players she would fear could read her, namely mollie among others.
BRO isn't looking town to me here. Hanzo looks more like annoyed town. Stepping back from Hanzo (and I'll concede that I don't love the justification for singling bazinga out after the fact) and looking at his other non-hydra-commentary interactions, such as those in 65, what's your take on him?In post 189, Malakittens wrote:My gut is saying that one of {Hanzo or BRO} are scum. Could be either or could be both. I just find the vote on me by BRO odd and as for Hanzo the whole attitude towards the hydra. I just feel like something is off in regards to what is currently happening.
Please tell me you're joking BRO; you're better than that. Do you seriously believe that 'mollie' playing into Mina's self-investigation jest in the first 10 game posts is the same thing as her trying to soft-push people?In post 206, BROseidon wrote:Oh. Lol.In post 180, Zdenek wrote:In post 14, bazinga wrote:mebbe we should have every1 draw out the day even with this confscum minaIn post 17, bazinga wrote:chamber mebbe you shouldnt jump out and scumclaim and make it so easyIn post 29, Medea the Alien wrote:P-edit: Also mollie seems pretty town on page one/two, cool.Well, I think my work here is done.In post 164, Medea the Alien wrote:Mollie OTOH is crafty enough as scum that she'd be sending out "mebbe X drew scum" reads on players, and using her "perfect meta" to drive lynches that way. She's not. She's town.
Zdenek wins thread gg.
Your Mala case is lousy. Town-Mala was going to bat for someone she knows well in terms of jumping on Hanzo's bazinga vote; as I said above, scum-Mala would have let it slide.
As far as her waffling on being able to read me, you and I have a lot of games together, yes, but we generally don't go paranoid on one another to the detriment of town when we're both town. She and I have a history of screwing town with our mutual scum paranoia reads dating back a year now. I'd like to think hydraing with her as scum will help this on both sides.
And there's a difference between noting your defense of Hanzo and saying that you're town-reading him. Although, FTR, what is your current read on him?
Zdenek, if you think Cabd is buddying bazinga, are you not concerned that I'm buddying Mala? Or is that incoming?
--PA
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This is my third post...I'm not exactly wreaking havoc around here.In post 239, Malakittens wrote:Medea - null, but gut is saying town? Only thing that bothers me, but could be nothing is how Peng has already engaged this day phrase so early. It's a null tell because she's not generally active during Day 1 as both alignments. But my gut is saying she's probably town.
...where am *I* misattributing any of your hydra's posts? Cabd tossed out an early town read on y'all, but I didn't get in here until Bert revealed his shenanigans. Not sure how many more times I have to point this out.In post 243, bazinga wrote:@ penny
you do realise that those exchanges were with bert? I think it is funny how whatever hydra I am in always winds up being universally referred to as mollie and you know who this has annoyed the most so far is borky
Believe what you like; scum-Mala's instinct isn't to help people she worries about in my experience.In post 245, Zdenek wrote:I don't believe that you believe this. I totally believe that you think that it's something that town you would think, but since you're scum, you fucked up faking it.
Do you agree with the town-Mala read or BRO's case? It's not clear from 246
BRO, do you think Mala and mastin's scum games have much in common? Because I don't get your comparison to mastin2 in AG.
He wasn't afraid to move his vote around, which felt town. Scum had no motivation not to lurk out RVS after making a vote. That it got discussion going is another point in his favor.In post 255, ToastyToast wrote:How is this in any way a good thing? If anything its the biggest negative towards Hanzo atm. That said voting because someone is a hydra isn't automatically negative. Its doesn't really count in RVS, but I'd say its closer to starting the game with a "policy-lynch" claim (just not because of a specific player). If anything Hanzo's vote feels like an attempt to get reactions from people and get the game moving rather than any actual hatred towards hydras.
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You were the one I found first when compiling things to catch up on. I trust that Mina and BRO'll get their answers from it as well or ask me to elaborate if necessary.In post 263, Zdenek wrote:How come you chose to comment to me about this, rather than Mina or Bro?In post 259, Medea the Alien wrote:Believe what you like; scum-Mala's instinct isn't to help people she worries about in my experience.
mollie, I'm quoting everything I've posted referencing your hydra's posts:In post 266, bazinga wrote:@ mala
am wondering about penny! her not realising that it was bert posting in spite of bert saying that he was posting at that time worries me like in a big way.
In post 55, Medea the Alien wrote:Not sure why mollie's atypically ceding D1 hydra control to Bert, and hydra head impersonation shenanigans don't help.
--PA
In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:Actually I was the one who thought it was odd that mollie was giving Bert such free reign upon him saying that he'd been imitating mollie. I sign my posts when in-hydra, for future reference.In post 205, Mina wrote:Except that read came from penguin (?) and before Bert had even outed his ruse (in fact, the read was mollie looks town).
--PA
Please tell me WTH you're talking about. My point was that you usually take the lead in your hydras D1, and bert starting things out was anomalous.In post 259, Medea the Alien wrote:...where am *I* misattributing any of your hydra's posts? Cabd tossed out an early town read on y'all, but I didn't get in here until Bert revealed his shenanigans. Not sure how many more times I have to point this out.In post 243, bazinga wrote:@ penny
you do realise that those exchanges were with bert? I think it is funny how whatever hydra I am in always winds up being universally referred to as mollie and you know who this has annoyed the most so far is borky
--PA
--PA
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...hence the 'quotes' around 'mollie'In post 270, macmollie wrote:I didn't play into the self-investigation that was all bertDo you seriously believe that 'mollie' playing into Mina's self-investigation jest in the first 10 game posts is the same thing as her trying to soft-push people?
My point was that even if it had been you, it wasn't indicative of the kind of scum play Cabd was saying you'd be prone to making where BRO said it was a reason to invalidate Cabd's read because BRO said 'you' were doing what Cabd said was a scum tell for you. The timing meant it wasn't serious from your hydra.
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You and mala are town as fuck.
Not a fan of Bro by any means, but we can't put our finger on why. Just something about the way he handwaved the z-fox thing's case on us away while still leaving the door open to jump on later. Mine's comment about me being a scumread initially due to burden of proficiency struck me as ood and kinda worries me because she did something similar as scum in Marketplace 3 but not the exact same way so maybe not? Chamber is kinda town, reminding me of red wine and trollie's Macbeth mafia so far. Not liking much of toasty's posts so far, but he's kinda derp given the one game I have played with him in the past so I dunno.
The rest are still in the jumble-sorter in my head and our skypechat.
Not a fan of Bro by any means, but we can't put our finger on why. Just something about the way he handwaved the z-fox thing's case on us away while still leaving the door open to jump on later. Mine's comment about me being a scumread initially due to burden of proficiency struck me as ood and kinda worries me because she did something similar as scum in Marketplace 3 but not the exact same way so maybe not? Chamber is kinda town, reminding me of red wine and trollie's Macbeth mafia so far. Not liking much of toasty's posts so far, but he's kinda derp given the one game I have played with him in the past so I dunno.
The rest are still in the jumble-sorter in my head and our skypechat.
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OK, Cabd town read bazinga based on what seemed to be mollie's posts. Later on after Bert said he'd been impersonating mollie, I was suspicious because mollie usually takes the lead in her hydras D1 as town. Right now I think we're both leaning town on them based on their scumhunting activity, but I at least haven't really put together an overall perspective on them yet.In post 286, Mina wrote:Also also, Medea, I still can't make heads or tails of your slot's read on bazinga, and none of your answers have really satisfied me. Walk me through your read on her since the beginning of the game (I mean thewhy, not thewhat), including who said what when. And you never answered why you asked that random Osseus question. Barring a couple of townreads, I really haven't connected with your slot's posts this game.
As far as who said what when, anything that's unsigned is Cabd, anything with '--PA' is me.
Sorry, forgot about the Osseus thing. Of the two people you said you weren't townreading, Osseus was the one whose post at that point seemed more ambiguous, so I wanted to know what was making you not townread him and how strong that read leaned toward scum.
Yeah, so my townread on the Cabd-Mala hydra was strongly based on my very erroneous townreading of Cabd. Which persisted in spite of Mala doing a scum-Mala-type disappearing act. TBF, from reading the scum QT afterwards Mala felt uncomfortable watching me be that dumb so it was less alignment-indicative. I'd also never seen scum-Mala from the outside of hydraing with her at that point. While it's possible that her attitude toward drawing scum in a player list that contains people she knows well has changed in the short time since Micro 267 and Mini 1531, I'd be very surprised if she could fake this level of willingness to engage as scum.In post 292, Ghatokaca wrote:Penguin, as I understand it, you were townreading Malakittens in Sixty's game where she was scum. Why the lack of uncertainty in your read. Can you summarize in your own words why you felt WIAC was town in that game and what Malakittens did here that she was unable to fake in that game?
--PA
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=5526936In post 363, bazinga wrote:what cabd/mala hydra
Walked into a club is me+malakittens.
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Falcon, how deeply did you read that game and the neighborhood QT? Mala was sick most of it, and the manipulation was almost entirely me. She doesn't have to be paranoid of 1531 happening to her again because the person who did it to her is in her hydra.In post 292, Ghatokaca wrote:Penguin, as I understand it, you were townreading Malakittens in Sixty's game where she was scum. Why the lack of uncertainty in your read. Can you summarize in your own words why you felt WIAC was town in that game and what Malakittens did here that she was unable to fake in that game?
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F-16's asking about Mini 1531 where Walked into a Club, a Cabd-Malakittens hydra who drew scum, neighborized mason-me N1 after NKing my mason partner (Kazekirimaru) with daychat and in some combination of excellent manipulation from them and incredibly awful play from me ended up with me fakeclaiming masons with them where due to circumstances you can read about in-game I was effectively confirmed to be a genuine mason. It resulted in a scum victory sweep, as I singlehandedly screwed town.In post 363, bazinga wrote:what cabd/mala hydra
As such, F-16 is questioning whether I'm capable of recognizing scum-Malakittens, to which I replied before your question. Bottom line, I believe I am, but I get the skepticism.
--PA
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This is a joint reads list, cabd's comments in blue, penguin's comments in orange. This list is not in any strength order within each tier.
7. malakittens
2. Bazinga (pirate mollie +Bert)
4. Chamber
5. Ghatokaca (F-16 Falcon + Nachomamma8)
6. hanzo_5
9. Mina
10. notscience
13. Zdenek
11. Osseus pseudotripodis (Untrod Tripod + TBone)
1. Ampersand (Cogito Ergo Sum + Fenchurch)
12. ToastyToast
3. Broseidon
Not touching tier:
7. malakittens
I've hydra'd with malakittens as scum (Mini 1531), and I've played town to her scum (Xenogears (Large theme), Micro 267, Mini 1461) so I like to think I have a good sense of her scum game. This is not it. If she is scum here then the rest of her team consists of people she is SUPER comfy with, players like chamber and notscience. I don't find that to be the case here. She's too bold and getting shit done. Of note, when scum being the major wagon of the day she has a tendency to shut down (pull her ISO from Xenogears the day she was lynched), and here she's doing anything but.
I've addressed my Mala read ad nauseum, so I'll just say again that she's not intimidated enough by the players who know her reasonably well (and there are too many of them for them all to be her teammates) to be scum here. As far as her not going all paranoid of me town-reading her, it's also consistent with her kicking herself for hard-pushing me on D1 of Mini 1524.
2. Bazinga (pirate mollie +Bert)
I have a certain thing I look for to find mollie-town. It was there in Red Wedding. It was there in xenoblade. It was there in xenogears. It's here right now. Bert leading off the game coming off of a few super terrible scumgames also is a point towards town.
Even though I didn't like Bert messing around with head impersonation, since then I've gotten genuine scumhunting feelings from mollie. Plus the residual paranoia mollie usually has about me when she's town, as evidenced in her skepticism when Cabd said I'd passed out for the night (which yes, was me falling asleep, not drinking myself into oblivion) Bert's been along for the ride, but it lines up with bazinga-behavior in Antihero's orgo game.
Townreads tier:
4. Chamber
Chamber was entirely correct with his remark that this is the same game style he employed in Macbeth. (I said it first chamber suck it) Only thing I dislike was his recent vote onto nachofalcon, but still a townread.
He reads as comfortable to me; beyond that I'm deferring to Cabd's read. Overall I get the sense he's not trying to ingratiate himself with people, which with his short posting style would be an easy path to take.
5. Ghatokaca (F-16 Falcon + Nachomamma8)
This is a weak townread for me based entirely upon F-16's posts. Nacho's activity is null given his new occupation, but I do wish for him to make time for this game more. That said, scum-nacho could easily mislynch me here given current game state, and I certainly don't see any indication of that angle. Flacon rallying to hard defend his major town read (me in this case) is very reminiscent of his micro 252 townplay.
I'm getting the sense (could be wrong) that there's genuine communication between Nacho and F-16. F-16 did all the early posting, up through him asking about Mini 1531. He wasn't in that game, Nacho was. His linking Malakittens there to my read on her here implies that he was discussing things with Nacho somewhere in a way that scum wouldn't need to do. Scum-Nacho also nearly always takes a shot at mislynching me; for him to come in and town-read me pronto is either him changing a non-broken strategy or genuine town-Nacho doing that thing where he reads me right.
In terms of a less self-centered basis for my town read on Ghatokaca, they're trying to work with a large swath of players, they're following up on open-ended lines of inquiry, and they don't feel like they have an agenda, even though they're both strong enough players to take control of the game.
In terms of a less self-centered basis for my town read on Ghatokaca, they're trying to work with a large swath of players, they're following up on open-ended lines of inquiry, and they don't feel like they have an agenda, even though they're both strong enough players to take control of the game.
Null-Town:
6. hanzo_5
I dislike his style of play and most certainly disagree with it, but a cursory skim of the past says this is how he goes about playing nowadays. I don't think he'd be taking the hardliner to hydrae approach that he is right now as scum; but his mala push is very tunnel-ish and misguided. His openness to hear from people town reading malakittens is certainly interesting, but I doubt he'll enjoy my VERY meta-influenced read upon her play here. Of note, I'm working through a list of his meta and will post that separately.
I don't think scum's super-likely to take the controversial hydra stance in a game with so many vocal hydra players. I also don't think he'd try to diffuse the tension with Mala as he does in 234 as scum; sure, he'd want to seem reasonable, but he could do that without phrasing things such that he pulls the conflict back to a less fraught basis. I also like that he's trying to work with his scum read instead of just shouting at her. If he was scum trying to mislynch town, he'd be less likely want her opinions on things.
9. Mina
Mina is a very dangerous scum player when she wants to be, completely snowing me in Marketplace Mafia III; but as of yet nothing sets off any major alarms. Her RVS entry into the game is slightly reminiscent of her RVS entry there, however, causing me to be less than hasty on sending her up a tier.
...MMIII is a blur. Pretty sure I've only played with scum-Mina before. I was a bit frustrated that Mina wasn't getting the facts right on the bazinga-read issue, but there's a flexibility in her reads that makes me lean town. It's not so wildly swinging that it feels like scum taking advantage, but more like town forming opinions organically.
10. notscience
Notscience is a special kind of player that without meta, you're either going to find him always townish or always scumish, depending upon your personal outlook on proper town play. Nothing sets off alarm bells, but after a recent snowing in 1520, I'm hesitant to move him anywhere lacking more data. The only reason he's in lean town is due to a townread on him by pothers in my townreads.
I know I've {played with, observed in my completed modded games} notscience, but I don't recall any useful meta. Just on the basis of this game, he seemed relaxed and open to being pressured, and once pressured, took non-sycophant stances on players. Want more from him before I'd drop the 'null' part of the read.
13. Zdenek
Tunneling is something very alignment neutral for Zdenek. I only have played against him once, in New York 165 (I was scum, he was town, we night killed him early) and I see a similar approach to the game here. He's misguided, but honestly seems to think he's pegged scum. I know the feeling and he's giving it off. This is one read that I feel I will want to meta-dive, if F16 is feeling like playing the dance with me since Ffery isn't in this one. I do wish he'd tell us about his other reads, though, scum motivation for tunneling is obviously getting to avoid the rest of the game.
I disagree a bit here; I get the sense from his early posts that he's arguing to argue, and later on he's operating with confirmation bias out the wazoo. He's playing in a way that, if he got any of his preferred lynches through (Mala, us, Ghatokaca) and they flipped town as I know/expect them to, he could throw up his hands D2 and wander off to 'reassess' because he's ignoring a lot of the game. I'd personally put him at very, very light on the town part of this read and heavy on the null.
True Null:
11. Osseus pseudotripodis (Untrod Tripod + TBone)
I actually have only watched UT play once, and that game was fraught with WTF-Setup errors and a flaked mod. As for T-Bone, I want to go back and look at BBMolla's micro and see if I can draw any comparisons. IIRC F16 was in that agme as well, so his insight and or observations are welcome.
In one game with T-Bone, I seem to recall him not making much sense to me. I don't get much original from the hydra as a whole. I see a lot of waffling and posts that don't advance the game state. Null works.
1. Ampersand (Cogito Ergo Sum + Fenchurch)
CES is sometimes a man of few words, so I always have issues reading players of his style. (ABR for example) I can't really decide if the push on me feels more like mistaken town or mislynch thirsty scum. I do argue back, however, that "Leaving the door open to jump on later" is a perfectly valid phrase, and fuck you if you think it's not; in that order.
Don't know who's posting what in all cases and don't really care as I have about zero experience with either (maybe one game with CES?) Their pushes feel superficial and I'm not getting anything that makes me think they have town motives. Don't get why they'd object to our characterization of BRO as leaving his options open. Basically an enigma to me.
Scumreads:
12. ToastyToast
4 posts, and very little of value. Calling Mina v Chamber town V. town off the bat pinged really hard. His point in 78 is completely invalidated by reading some of mina-scum's past games.
The things he points out are minor; he jumps at the chance to comment on smaller issues. No paranoia on Mina-chamber in-fighting.
3. Broseidon
His approach to me reads totally off. His mala-case is very much a case of "he should know better than this" as well. Him calling the entire game shit is by no means a towntell for him, either.
Yeah, BRO enjoys playing the curmudgeon, but I expect more in-depth analysis from him, more considered reads, and more willingness to work with those people he doesn't think are idiots. I'm actually not sure we've had a town-town game on this site in quite some time. We have had multiple town hydra games though that make me think I'd recognize his town game better than I have in the past. If anything I have a tendency to trust him where I shouldn't (Mini 1515, NY 165), which makes me think that I should give more credence to my gut not liking his play here.
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Hanzo as scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=28123 (was replaced by Nul, the slot was lynched day two, flipping mafia goon)
Hanzo as town:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=15611 (Slot killed night two)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15645 (Town, Lynched D1)
Of note, the town games are from 2012 whereas the scumgame is from 2013. The bolded "@whoever" style seems to be something new, it is not present at all in his 2010 games but is very present in his 2013 game.
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Nothing in those posts seemed to come from a town mindset. Osseus shakes out closer to null, and for me, I'm somewhat reserving judgment because I remember thinking that T-Bone in Mini 1413 didn't make a whole lot of sense to me when he was town. There's also a distinction in my mind between not moving things forward and dragging town off-track; Osseus is the former, TT is the latter.In post 446, notscience wrote:@CabdAlien-
Why is the person with only 4 posts a scumread compared to ossy who have had several and substantial? While I get that there were bits that pinged/lack of paranoia, that's enough to put him in your bottom two?
Speaking of which, not liking what TT opts to question in 455. Some of it's OK, but he asks about things that aren't current and were hardly relevant at that game stage:
In post 456, ToastyToast wrote:So what? How is trying to be spoon fed an answer scummy?
But do you honestly think that vote was serious? It was page 2. I mean, come on, Mina guiltied herself and you were voted for being lynch-bait. Aren't those votes technically just as bad?
Is notscience as hopeless as a world that doesn't believe in science?
How convenient. Are you ever lazy scum?
I don't think there is enough on BroSeidon to determine his allignment. Bazinga's reasoning is very vague. Perhaps there will be more explanation as I read on.
If people are going to refer to hydras by their individual parts, either 1)hydras need to label their posts or 2) those saying things like "bert" need to make it clear what hydra that is. I'm not going to memorize who makes up what. Its a waste of time.
How nice that you know your own playing styles. So what you are saying here is that you guys are going to be hard as fuck to read as a hydra.
And this is so incredibly non-specific and noncommittal. Mala's town, but not strongly, and I think she's shady, but I won't vote her--for now.malakittens 248 is angry, but town angry. She isn't a strong townread for me, and I question some of her posts, but I'm not getting on that wagon anytime soon.
This helps. I'd still like to get more of a sense of what you're thinking about other players, especially Hanzo, since you're dropped him since cheerleading Hanzo and Medea wagons in the early part of the day.In post 455, Zdenek wrote:Just to be clear, I find Mala quite town, and regard her as an unacceptable lynch.
Ampersand:
So you're quite convinced that I'm posting from a scum-mindset. And yet I pass up an opportunity to go after Hanzo for being formulaic? But fine, you see scum motivation shining through, and you've obviously read our posts that culminated in voting BRO. And yet:In post 449, Ampersand wrote:Medea is a better vote because they're scum, mostly. If you want to be convinced, just look at their latest reads post; it's filled with penguin_alien giving flimsy justifications for reads that she thinks she should have or wants to have, e.g.:In post 423, Mina wrote:Likewise, Ampersand, why is Medea a better vote than the other people I listed above? I'm having trouble following their thought processes or connecting with their posts, and some stuff they've said has been off, but I don't know if I'd go as far to call them obvscum. Right now, although I'm paranoid Medea/Ghatokaca/BRO scum can coast to endgame if they aren't taken out early, I feel like Osseus is more likely to flip scum, and will probably change my vote soon. (If your argument is that UT will become readable, isn't he already pretty readable?)On chamber, penguin wrote:Overall I get the sense he's not trying to ingratiate himself with people, which with his short posting style would be an easy path to take.Also, she completely ignores Hanzo's roboticness, i.e. the most relevant thing about his play.On Toasty, penguin wrote:No paranoia on Mina-chamber in-fighting.
You're quite happy to jump on our preferred wagon?Unvote, vote: Poseidon
--PA
P-edit: haven't read the newest wall yet...
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Because I'm more interested in sorting BRO, and Tammy only gave us one vote. If BRO's scum, he's dangerous. If I'm misreading him and he's town and I correct such a misread, working with him would likely be fruitful.In post 482, bazinga wrote:you made a solid case on ToastyToast, so why not vote her right now?
Having said that, upon further reflection, the places where I've misread town-BRO, like Narnia Micro 199, tend to come from my incorrectly linking him with actual scum and not misreading him on his own merits so much.
TT isn't influencing people as strongly, and if he's the scum I think he is, I'm less concerned about him rolling over the town long-term.
--PA
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There's one waiting for you on page 18.In post 494, ToastyToast wrote:@Medea: could you write up a quick read list? Almost everyone you've mentioned being suspicious of is coupled up with a "I think they are scum, but..." and other such ambiguous, indecisive statements.
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My point was that given your comment in the dead QT after your NK, and your eventual not wanting to lynch me in the game, town-you would more likely give me a bit of space and not go right to paranoia.In post 521, Malakittens wrote:@Peng:
Actually, my read on you in OGM wasn't because you called me town. It was because of your indecisiveness/hesitant on your read on me that it stood out the most and made it look scummy as hell to me. (ISO 65 of mine.)
However I don't think my paranoia this game is at all linked to that aspect of the game. It's more because of your eagerness to connect to this game and how you are approaching it that's sticking out to me the most.
I remember scum Mollie as very apathetic. After the early Bert shenanigans, I think Mollie's engaged here, and she's playing like town. She also hasn't tried to play up her paranoia to foment fights. She could be faking it, but I think it would be sub-optimal scum play from her bag of tricks.@Peng:
I do have a question what type of paranoia because I remember when you and I both were town in Cluedo she did something similar and you said something similar to this extent. Can the skepticism by Mollie this game be faked at all, do you think?
Never played with chamber. My read on him isn't meta-based. Generally speaking I don't meta-dive games I haven't played unless I'm looking for something specific about a player's style. So I don't know that he isn't capable of playing like this as scum, but I'm reading him as more likely town.@Peng:
You don't have much experience if not at all with playing with Chamber? It's like my thirdish game with him on the forums. One where we hydra'd, one that was so long ago that I forgot it, another that was MacBeth Mafia. All of those games were town, so I don't have *much* experience with scum-Chamber so any meta reads are kinda fucked up in terms of that. I don't know *really* how scum-Chamber would play, but how do you know that scum-Chamber wouldn't do anything above how you are describing?
There's a reason I didn't fight Cabd in putting Ghatokaca as a town read rather than 'not touching' here. I think Nacho's very aware that scum-him gets me mislynched with hilarious regularity, to the point where he actually said in the OGM scum QT that he deliberately wasn't planning to go after me in that game and yet still ended up on my mislynch wagon. It's like a compulsion for him.@Cabd/Peng:
I do have to say after you made that comment I was watching to see what Nacho would do in regards to the talk about lynching you. Do you think Nacho was aware of that as a scumtell of his? I'm thinking this is town-Nacho, but I want to see what else he posts before giving a definitive read out because I'm just somewhat paranoia of giving him such an early townread in OGM to have that bite me in the ass later in the game when Wisdom was trying to say "stop, no!"
There's something I'm waiting to see from Ghatokaca (yes, I'm being vague, no, I won't explain further now) before being willing to move them to untouchable town or potential scum.
Hanzo's giving out soft reads in his posts, and I would like to see him (along with some other players) stop death-spiraling around one or two other players. Him saying:@Peng:
I can see where he is trying to work with me, but my hesitation in giving him the room to do it is because I'm not liking what I'm connecting between him and BRO. I can see the town-motivation side of his posts while trying to work with me because in a sense he's trying to get into my head and see what I'm thinking so he can use information based on things I have said, in case I get lynched or killed, to go about hunting for scum in the future. I just don't like how his only open read is on me and keeps saying everyone else is null. That for some reason bothers me a lot. Your thoughts on that?
does bug. On the other hand, BRO doesn't reach out to try to work with Hanzo despite using him as the springboard in his push on you, which seems even more unnatural. And I *think* BRO is pretty good at laying down interactions with his scumbuddies as per NY 165, although I may be biased by the game state as it was when I replaced in several days in. That makes me think this is more likely scum-BRO taking advantage of town-Hanzo. Hanzo also missed the opportunity to placate you with an off-the-cuff response about BRO if they're scum buddies.In post 392, Hanzo_5 wrote:@Malakittens, I have not interacted with BROseidon yet. Have you made an attempt at refuting my case yet?
Mala, can you talk to me about Ampersand and Osseus? Just what they're actually posting in this game. Ampersand-Fenchurch's post reads as frustrated town who's doubting her ability to play her best game in a hydra that hasn't found its groove, but (presumably) CES cherry-picking out my two least-substantiated reads (chamber, where I'm increasingly sure I'm just not going to jive with his style irrespective of alignment, and TT, who had fewer than half a dozen posts at the time of the read, none of which addressed anything after the first five game pages) is more in the vein of him trying to push our wagon regardless of what's actually happening in the thread.
And this:
apparently objecting to Cabd characterizing BRO as waffling instead of objecting to BRO actually waffling or arguing why Cabd was wrong pings.In post 313, Ampersand wrote:"Leaving the door open to jump on later" is not a thing a competent townie should ever be saying.In post 281, Medea the Alien wrote:Not a fan of Bro by any means, but we can't put our finger on why. Just something about the way he handwaved the z-fox thing's case on us away while still leaving the door open to jump on later.
Medea and Poseidon are both pretty obvscum regardless of how much nonsense they're pouring into the thread (which does seem like a good scum strategy here).
--PA
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Because his posts focus on minor points, many of which aren't relevant to finding scum or town, and he apparently has zero perspective on his own play. Fact: if you lurk, you're not going to be influencing people. That's not a value-judgment, it's just the way it is. And for him to think I'm being rude in pointing out that someone with ten posts, half of which comment on nothing recent in the game state at the time they were made, is less immediately relevant than someone with four times that many posts, is juvenile.In post 548, bazinga wrote:why are you annoyed with burnt toast?In post 546, Medea the Alien wrote:Hey mollie, would love to discuss TT if you're around, seeing as I'm a bit too annoyed at him to be trusted to talk to him directly at this point. (Actually finishing up getting back to Mala on her points and waiting to calibrate with Cabd on some other intervening posts.)
--PA
As someone who normally lurks in early game, I'm very aware that there's a cost to being reticent, and pretending like it should be discounted is maddening.
Also, LMAO that he gets pissy about us having two null reads when he goes on to have four null reads, including the two players we put down as null.
--PA
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Hey mollie remember in Xenogears when we mislynched Bro? And how he was super duper ragerific and "hollier than thou" about it with a burning passion? Because I see none of that and instead a very hollow attempt at replicating it while trying to keep low. And penguin agrees that he does that in games while being mislynched other than Xeno, too.
(For those of you that were not privy to that game, take his ISO starting here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5381749 )
Like where's his fervor that we're misreading him? Where's the "I'm gonna take this game by the balls and do shit" mode? It's nowhere to be found. You see what I mean?
(For those of you that were not privy to that game, take his ISO starting here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5381749 )
Like where's his fervor that we're misreading him? Where's the "I'm gonna take this game by the balls and do shit" mode? It's nowhere to be found. You see what I mean?
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Why the actual fuck would you say this?In post 585, Hanzo_5 wrote:If i were scum i would kill him first.
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To chime in, the other games in question are Mini Theme HP: SS/PS, Micro 267, and the Narnia game mentioned below. Not convinced here.In post 603, BROseidon wrote:Hey Cabd.In post 590, Medea the Alien wrote:Hey mollie remember in Xenogears when we mislynched Bro? And how he was super duper ragerific and "hollier than thou" about it with a burning passion? Because I see none of that and instead a very hollow attempt at replicating it while trying to keep low. And penguin agrees that he does that in games while being mislynched other than Xeno, too.
(For those of you that were not privy to that game, take his ISO starting here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5381749 )
Like where's his fervor that we're misreading him? Where's the "I'm gonna take this game by the balls and do shit" mode? It's nowhere to be found. You see what I mean?
I'm not getting lynched this game.
You can stop trying now.
Once as me, I count Anything Goes because I didn't read you correctly in time/firmly enough. Also not sure about off-site games, but that's less useful here anyways. Although that makes me more confident in my read this game, so.In post 596, BROseidon wrote:I think this has only happened once?In post 490, Medea the Alien wrote:Having said that, upon further reflection, the places where I've misread town-BRO, like Narnia Micro 199, tend to come from my incorrectly linking him with actual scum and not misreading him on his own merits so much.In post 482, bazinga wrote:you made a solid case on ToastyToast, so why not vote her right now?
--PA
TT, as far as getting emotional/ragey at you, you were obviously annoyed at me. My venting my spleen in response wasn't going to help anything: either you're scum who'd be happy to derail things into an irrational fight, or you're town, and I'd be hindering our ability to potentially work together down the road. Out of time now, but I'll be around tonight to go through your posts and respond to whatever else I've missed.
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Add another ticky mark to the 'this is not town-BRO being wagoned column.In post 635, bazinga wrote:if you think he was holier than fuck in xeno you should have seen him anything goesIn post 590, Medea the Alien wrote:Hey mollie remember in Xenogears when we mislynched Bro? And how he was super duper ragerific and "hollier than thou" about it with a burning passion?
Yes. Whether he's partnered with hydras or not. By the time he's done it's completely twisted around to become useless.In post 637, Ghatokaca wrote:do you think bro would make such a big deal out of the scum in the hydras thing if he were scum?
mollie/bazinga, I basically like all your untouchable reads (Mina was bugging me in her fadeout, but I like that she challenged BRO's read on her as outdated) except notscience. What's he done to merit it? (if you've explained, a link is fine)
Zdenek is getting townier as the game progresses. His thought processes look town. Hanzo's likely town; I don't think he and BRO are doing scum theater here.
chamber I'm OK leaving as town, not really null as you have him still. His posts read like he could be manipulating things far more than he is as scum.
ToastyToast I'm currently willing to leave for a future day because I'm so darn certain about BRO. He hasn't done anything that makes me townread him, and I want more interactions with him in any case, but I wouldn't fight his lynch down the road based on the current game state.
BRO needs rope. Still no great feelings about Osseus; Ampersand, I get the feeling CES isn't sincere in his pushes, which is making them come off as scummy. Fenchurch is more genuine, if frustrated. I'd keep them over Osseus right now.
So I'd upgrade chamber, and Zdenek's getting closer to untouchable for me. Want more on the notscience read.
As for addressing ToastyToast directly:
What sets me off about your catch-up posts is that you address outdated issues to the players in question. It's the difference between noting that a post is scummy, or thinking it might be relevant, versus telling Ampersand to stop being so unhelpful re: post #67 in your post #255. I get having to catch up, having done it as a replacement and a lagging player, but the way you go about it in places looks like busy work, and I don't get the sense that you actually expect people to address every question you raise. Which begs the question of why you're asking them.
In terms of your interaction with us (me and Cabd) are you really surprised that Cabd called you derpy when his one game experience with you was you town-hiding behind you when he told you he'd be the NK? I read that neighbor QT, and his frustration was pretty clear.
I was saying that they weren't trying to hard-push a scum read on the players. They're both capable of stepping in to lead town, and given the lack of unified direction in this game so far, they could have rallied people around a wagon. Instead they're spending more time trying to establish town reads and write off potential mislynches.In post 534, ToastyToast wrote:What does "[Ghatokaca] have no agenda" even mean?
What I'd actually be interested in would be if you looked back over your catch-up posts and told me what you still find relevant in influencing your current reads.
In terms of your threat level as scum, to add context to that statement, I've been snowed by BRO-scum more than once. My experience with you doesn't have that level of worry. It wasn't intended as an insult to you, just a reflection on BRO's danger level if he's scum.
Where are you in sorting your pile of null reads: Osseus, BRO, Ampersand, notscience?
--PA
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Our reads list aligns almost perfectly and usually I'd get eebie jeebies, but we're coming from the same source (extreme use of meta) so it makes sense. I swear to god I can't wait to talk with you a ton more. (I still want nacho to stop being lazy and get his ass in here though)In post 779, Ghatokaca wrote:TOWN+
1. Medea The Alien- Strongest townread for reasons mentioned in 408, 414, 420, 439, 444, 457, and 467.
2. malakittens- Mala felt town initially and she looked very comfortable in her beginning posts in RVS and her reference to herself as lynchbait because she felt she played badly recently felt extremely genuine and it seemed like she really wanted to give more of an effort in this game. Her later play didn't disappoint and her initiating a discussion with Mollie in 84 about Medea felt pro-active and town-motivated. I also really like her push on NotScience to engage fully with the game as the last time I've played with her in Micro 254, she pinned NotScience as scum fairly early on in the game and her concern about NotScience echoed my own as some of NotScience's early play seemed similar to his lurkish scum play in the game I played with Mala and NotScience. The conviction in her response to BROseidon in 134 and the straightforward justification of her actions felt very real and her approach in 239 to her read on Toasty ("He seems to be focusing a lot on Mina only, but want to check to see if that's true or my mind is adding things that aren't really there") was incredibly genuine and I just can't see Mala as scum not double-checking what she was doing before throwing out reads as scum while simultaneously admitting that she needed to verify her thoughts. Her unprompted willingness to discuss her reads with Medea in the thorough and meticulous way that she has done in 521 is far more likely to come from town and I can see a clear overarching motivation of Malakittens wanting to make amends for previous games where she believes she played suboptimally by putting in the extra effort to scumhunt. I would be very, very surprised if Malakittens flipped scum.
3. Bazinga (pirate mollie +Bert)- I have a fairly strong townread on Bazinga and I get a lot of town-Bert vibes from his later posts. His posts about Zdenek in 172 are the sort of critical thinking posts that Bert finds difficult to fake as scum and I really like his probing of ToastyToast in 346. I also felt the townread on Hanzo combined with the exasperation felt very genuine. His 517 is exactly the type of subdued paranoia which is incredibly difficult to fake for him as scum and the feeling that he is not saying everything on his mind but wants to stop people making erroneous conclusions is something I associate with town-Bert that which he hasn't been able to fake at all in the last scumgame I played with him. I like the natural way in which PirateMollie started taking the lead and trying to reach out to various players to reach a concensus and it feels very similar to what I know of her town-meta from Mini 1516 and very different from the half-hearted way she did it Mini 1524. I felt that the differences were very stark and I'd be very surprised if she could make such a dramatic meta-shift as scum and I think it is highly likely that this slot is town. I also felt the hesitance in scumread us made a lot of sense in light of the Too Many Heads game where Mollie incorrectly scumread Nacho and it was something that could be exploited incredibly easily with Mollie showing hesitance in reading us citing that past mistake while other people wagoned us. The way she put her foot down initially made me fairly certain that they were town.
TOWN
4. Mina- I have a decent townread on Mina. I like the way she initially moved on from her gambit into discussing reads and posting analysis in 46 based on the discussion that ensued. Her responses to Chamber in 51 coupled with her moving onto more general analysis on the rest of the game felt very discerning and it seemed like she didn't just want to produce content but was carefully filtering the type of content to what would help her solve the game as opposed to getting distracted with a 1v1 argument with Chamber and it really reminds me of how I as town try to shut someone who is tunneling out to focus on the rest of the game. I dislike 335 and 338 because it seemed as though she was telling UT what his gut should be like which is somewhat ridiculous, and I also find that contrary opinions that don't go with the flow are much, much more likely to come from town than scum. I do feel that the "CES shouldn't have such a strong townread on me" in 693 felt really town and the kind of thing I expect to see from people who pride themselves on their scumgames although I personally dislike those sort of reads which feel as though they are underestimating the townhunting abilities of the players they are directing it to and puts me off when it is directed at me since I pride myself on my towngame. But I feel that Mina would be less likely to subtly play up her scumgame when she is scum. There are also a lot of little things like the willingness to re-evaluate Malakittens and then coming back to thinking she is town in 724 that feel like she is genuinely trying to figure out the game and staying away from shoehorning reads.
5. notscience- I have a moderate townread on NotScience. He comes across as not caring about his image and isn't restrained at all especially compared with Micro 254 where he is a lot more awkward and restrained as scum. I like his easy demeanor at the beginning of the game especially in 69 and 79 and his smooth movement into developing reads in 92. I agree with his Osseus and BRO votes and his flippant responses to Hanzo were very unlike the cautious attacks I've seen him make in Micro 254. The one thing that makes me a little unsure is that the amount of stock he set in Mollie's townread on Nacho while reading our slot to the point where he is prepared to lynch or not lynch according to Mollie's read as opposed to attempt to read us himself and incorporate that into Mollie's read but I am unsure whether this is town laziness or scum wanting to pass the blame. The overt nature of his sheeping Mollie and lack of subtlety makes me lean towards town.
6. hanzo_5- While I disagree with lot of Hanzo's stances, there is a certain mechanical way that he is approaching his reads which feels extremely consistent. I also feel the persistence of his questioning and insistence on following almost all of his lines of reasoning to their conclusions is much more likely town than scum. Cabd, I looked through Newbie 1369 to see if his play is easily fake-able for him as scum and the different is pretty significant. The biggest thing I noticed was that his questions in his scumgame lacked the thoroughness and conviction that he has in this game and his questioning seemed much, much more shallow often focussing on superficial things and the amount of content he provides is also much less than he does here and he doesn't seem as determined to scumhunt. I also feel that he is a lot more aggressive in persuing his scumreads here specifically his push on Malakittens in 376 where he asks for more votes on Malakittens. The way he owns his reads and tries to push lynches and engages others to vote his scumreads feels town and even when I disagree with the reasoning behind his pushes and his choice of targets, his posts come across like he genuinely believes what he is saying.
7. Ampersand (Cogito Ergo Sum + Fenchurch)- Ampersand is my weakest townread and it comes mostly from the way Fenchurch's posts feel unprepared and raw. Post 238 felt town and her later posts (654 in particular) seem very transparent. I really like CES's interaction with Hanzo and it feels like he is genuinely trying to help him out by giving him pointers on how to connect with this playerlist whereas if they were scum, the lack of connection is something that can be easily exploited. I am unsure here and I need much bigger body of work before I can definitively figure it out.
NULL
8. Chamber- A lot of Chamber's posts don't really make much sense and his refusal to explain reads feels very anti-town. Nearly all the content he provides are one-liners which lead nowhere with 105 and 127 being particularly useless and 122 could do with a lot more elaboration. I also dislike his jump onto us in 411 and requesting an explanation for the contradiction in 443 and then completely ignoring it after it was given to continue to push a lynch seems like lazy, pretend scumhunting. The one thing that makes me reconsider is that he just seems too bad to be scum. I think he would be a little more careful about pushing town and scumreads and taking care to not make waves but the reckless way in which he is going about it makes me think anti-town but possibly town. Posts in 523 in particular completely misses the point of the interaction between him and Mala. Mala clearly intended to either try and read Chamber or figure out if his reasoning for voting us was legitimate enough that she should follow. Refusing to explain it makes it both more difficult for him to lynch his scumread and more difficult for others to read him. Neither of these benefit the town. The rest of Chamber's ISO is littered with trash and I need to do a full meta-dive to figure out whether this is town-trash or scum-trash because I am wondering if he just plays in a polar opposite way to me considering phrases like "town is just an absence of scum" in 735 which literally made me headdesk and want to yell at my computer screen.
9. Zdenek- Zdenek is another player I have trouble nailing down a read on because of a facepalm-type playstyle of assuming that someone who disagrees with a read of yours is either scum with your scumread or whiteknighting your scumread. The thing is though, I can see that as a legitimate town thought process although the person who is having that thought process would have to be incredibly, incredibly deluded about both the strength of their scumhunting as well the confidence in their reads. I remember quite a few games I've played where I tell someone they are wrong and the immediate accusation is whiteknighting. It generally comes from town although not impossible to fake as scum. I dislike that many of his reads are based off of connections from unflipped players - first assuming that if Medea were scum, we were too, and later following that up with if Osseus is scum, Ampersand is as well. @ Cabd, I skimmed through NY165 and A uPick of Ice and Fire and found his playstyles largely similar. I don't find his belief that he caught scum particularly townish since it isn't much different from the way he was pushing at his scumreads in uPick. I thought 1418 in the uPick was actually quite similar to his posts here where he just dismisses explanations of reads as "bullshit" while continuing to push through. Look closely at that post and I find that Kanye's annoyance at Zdenek not answering his questions and insistence that Zdenek answer his own questions before he answers Zdenek's resonated with me a lot and is one of the points against him. I feel like he avoids explaining himself whenever possible to reduce avenues of attack on him. I didn't see similar patterns in NY165 upon a skim but I need to read him in more detail before I can nail down a read.
11. Osseus pseudotripodis (Untrod Tripod + TBone)- There are some parts of Osseus's analysis that I heavily dislike and other parts that I quite like. I like their initial push on ToastyToast and it echoed my thoughts about him at the moment and positionally, I agree with what they are saying. However, I don't like the way in which they attacked him and their 95 where they call ToastyToast's statement meaningless doesn't really make any sense because the whole point of scumhunting is to see what makes more sense as scum than town so I dislike the way they went about attacking ToastyToast. I didn't find their reads in 315 to be all that bad. Mina, I am not seeing your reasoning for pushing UT based on the fact that you disagree with his gut. That doesn't really make much sense. It is almost like you are trying to forcefeed them as to what their gut should say which is somewhat meaningless and the "if you're using gut to read her, then you should be townreading her" is just completely ridiculous because you are expecting someone else to have the same gut reads that you do. However, Cabd, I re-read Micro 252 to see T-Bone's entrance and I saw him entering the game with a bang attacking EspeciallyTheLies who was really obvious town and backing up his reasons in a compelling, townish way and his analysis here left a lot to be desired. I don't see the same conviction here and the way he goes about giving his reads in 326 is a lot more softer than his hardline stance on ETL upon his replace-in in Micro 252. Just compare the sheer confidence in post 608 there and his subsequent posts compared with here and you can see why I am concerned with T-Bone's lack of contribution. His play overall doesn't have the same tone and self-assuredness that it does there. But that game was a lot more developed at that point and T-Bone was also playing alone so those could be mitigating factors. I need a bit more info from him before I can be certain in this read.
SCUM
11. ToastyToast- Toasty's 66 felt off and seemed like he was calling the argument town v town rather prematurely. I felt Mina was town but nothing that Chamber did really resonated with me. His explanation for it in 255 was really weak and seems to be made up after the fact and came down to town starting arguments and scum continuing them which is really just a playstyle tell and not an affiliation one not to mention that Mina and Chamber are experienced enough as scum to start arguments. His dislike of both Hanzo and Zdenek and later both Zdenek and us also doesn't really make sense considering all of those players have also started arguments and I doubt he even believes his whole started arguments theory that he brought up. I also dislike his issues with the depth of our explanations for our Medea read. It seems like he prefers an oversimplified version of it which doesn't capture the reasons for our townread and is actually suspicious of us for providing in-depth reads. I think in-depth reads are better but this is Toasty essentially pushing at something based almost entirely on playstyle. I've played with ToastyToasy in a couple of games (HunterxHunterx and Big Brother: HoH) and I don't get the same feelings that I got in that game and he feels much more calculated and opportunistic here as well as making much less sense in any of his analysis or pushes particularly his interpretation of the argument between Zdenek and me as well as the one between Chamber and Mina.
12. Broseidon- I dislike BRO's initial push on Malakittens and I really don't see why any of the things he pointed out are any more likely to come from town than scum. The "case" on Mala which amounts to "long-winded" and "hedging" are more playstyle tells than affiliation tells and I think in-depth explanations are good. Even if BRO disagreed, calling Mala scum for being long winded seemed rather disingenuous. I agree with the sentiment that BRO's rage can be faked as either affiliation and BRO certainly strikes me as the type to be able to fake emotions as scum. I dislike that he doesn't reach out to other players beyond a perfunctory "claiming Masons" with Cabd. The rest of his case comes down to "misreps of his position" that are unconvincing. I also quickly skimmed through Anything Goes and I fully agree with Medea and Bazinga about his rage being different with his anger being a lot more justified in that game and I could see why he would be so mad at being ignored by the majority of the playerlist and lynched. Based on that, his anger here seemed extremely premature and an attempt to keep in line with his town meta. I want to re-read Anything Goes to see what his frustration seems like as town.
My best guess is that Toasty and BRO are scum, possibly with one of Osseus, Zdenek, or Chamber.
~ F-16
Dammit mollie you're doing that thing where you ignore the scum and chase the red dot. Stop chasing the red dot (and/or falling for Bro suddenly playing up his emotions only when called out on it)In post 785, bazinga wrote:fuck it
if you were interested in meta-ing bro you would have looked at the game cos I dunno, it is an actual scum game of his?
Welcome to club "ghato is town as fuck"; I was beginning to worry your seat would stay empty.In post 798, notscience wrote:fwiw that last post sounds kinda town
Every fucking time I think there's redeeming your annoying as fuck tunneling on town, you pull shit like this. Just... take a step back dude. You clearly have zero uidea of how the nacho-mollie dynamic works; and you're making really bad conclusions because you don't have even close to the right picture. Re the bold please never do this, it's a violation of site rules.In post 811, Hanzo_5 wrote:My scum read is based on Nacho and Mollies interraction. Malakittens is obviously the person i am referring too. If you have read my posts ive already said why i am scum reading nacho and by proxy ghato and when i decided to read them that way. To be honest i think one of bazinga and ghato are likely scum based on how they are interracting with each other.
Ill have to reread his big list this game is getting dull andmy other games are more excitingso i need to pay more attention to this one i guess. More later...
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I have three types of hydrae.In post 808, Mina wrote:It's off that penguin and Cabd are in lockstep to every single stance. I mean, you'd think there'd be at least ONE read where they'd go, "Cabd has them as a strong townread, but I convinced him to downgrade them to null-town." Just look at how out of sync the other hydras are in this game. It does read like they concocted a list of reads and then each made up justifications to suit them. And the penguin quotes were egregious upon a second glance. I blame chamber for making me paranoid!
The kind where I keep the other player within arm's reach (club; maraca; GCBC, Trolling Fairy)
The kind where the other partner is barely existent (Kingcrabd, Kyubey, Trust Fund)
And the kind where the other partner and I talk a metric fuckton and try to play as one unified voice when we can. (Morph, Medea)
We spent a good three to four hours on Skype talking out where we wanted each read, and then decided to give insight to where we both were coming from by color-coding our reasons. It's not the first time I've done this and it certainly won't be the last.
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I'm torn between compromising on Osseus and pushing on for BRO--I feel like if BRO were town, his lynch would actually be easier than it has been. He's not the hardest mislynch target around, yet he can have good reads, which means scum should want him dead if he's not one of them, especially when they can blame town for it later.
In terms of his play here, he's gone into defensive mode instead of pushing his reads all the way to the gallows. In Anything Goes, he not only fought his lynch but also kept arguing for his reads. Same in HP: PS/SS. Here he talks about his great reads, but he hardly pursues them, just calling us dumb instead.
We have less than two days, and I sure don't want to no-lynch. I still like the company on the BRO wagon, but Osseus-wagon seems OK at the start.
Mollie/bazinga, please consider how disjointed BRO's posts are when he gets grouchy. It's like he can't put on the grouchiness and legit-scum-hunt simultaneously.
F-16, in your metadive, did you find any scum-BRO games where he got lynched?
--PA
In terms of his play here, he's gone into defensive mode instead of pushing his reads all the way to the gallows. In Anything Goes, he not only fought his lynch but also kept arguing for his reads. Same in HP: PS/SS. Here he talks about his great reads, but he hardly pursues them, just calling us dumb instead.
We have less than two days, and I sure don't want to no-lynch. I still like the company on the BRO wagon, but Osseus-wagon seems OK at the start.
Mollie/bazinga, please consider how disjointed BRO's posts are when he gets grouchy. It's like he can't put on the grouchiness and legit-scum-hunt simultaneously.
F-16, in your metadive, did you find any scum-BRO games where he got lynched?
--PA
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So bazinga, let's look at this. Zero interest in actively persuading people off Osseus, wants to get our wagon through, and most telling from BRO, the idea that he'd actually shoot us if he had a vig shot tonight. BRO thinks vigs are super-anti-town; there's no way he'd be presenting shooting an active player Night One, joke or not. Once, yeah, joke. Bringing it up multiple times, not so much. It reeks of him putting on false bravado about the strength of his read.In post 929, BROseidon wrote:There are several wagons that I'd prefer to Ossy at this point. Let's flash wagon Cabd/penguin so I don't have to vig them tonight?
VOTE: Medea
And yeah, as he mentioned earlier, he doesn't have mad 'reading PA' skills, but there's been no attempt from him to do so, or, heck, to understand why people like Nacho are town reading me.
As far as his interaction with us, the first thing he did was prop up Zdenek's weak case on how Bert's posting in RVS around Mina's obviously fabricated entrance. Then when I try to discuss Mala with him, he's utterly dismissive. He throws Anything Goes around like a shield and has no interest in considering how well I know Mala's motivations. His posts don't try to present his cases on people except Mala, and there he doesn't connect with people who agree with him.
Town-BRO defending himself doesn't shut down.
And yes, Bert, you're very, very town. Just a cross you'll have to bear.
Ampersand, I still don't have a good sense of your answer to this question. Talk to me here?In post 737, Medea the Alien wrote:So Ampersand, if your read on BRO is off the quality of his reads and play and not emotions, where do you stand on him? Last I saw, you didn't know.
--PA
--PA
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F-16, mollie has no case. BRO threw out a few grumpy statements and she decided it was enough. Hint: it isn't.
I do like your point about Osseus looking for glory off your potential mislynch. What do you think of Ampersand right now? Mina too.
Mollie, unvote. If you think there's the slightest chance Cabd and I are town here, work with us on this. Look at town-BRO from Micro 295. Look at him here. And look at how the Ghatokaca wagon grew. It's not scum-hunting, it's mass sheeping.
--PA
I do like your point about Osseus looking for glory off your potential mislynch. What do you think of Ampersand right now? Mina too.
Mollie, unvote. If you think there's the slightest chance Cabd and I are town here, work with us on this. Look at town-BRO from Micro 295. Look at him here. And look at how the Ghatokaca wagon grew. It's not scum-hunting, it's mass sheeping.
--PA
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BRO and Hanzo are pretending to sheep. Not buying it. The general attitude toward the wagon is also sheepy, like, 'eh, we don't want to think about this, but F-16 and Nacho aren't doing exactly what we want, so sure, lynch 'em.'In post 1040, chamber wrote:Who are the sheep?In post 1039, Medea the Alien wrote:And look at how the Ghatokaca wagon grew
Are you voting with mollie's approval? If so, my comments stand. Although you're welcome to do the unvoting. Tell me, Bert, what's the strongest point in the Ghatokaca case?In post 1041, bazinga wrote:teeheeIn post 1038, Mina wrote:...right. Stances. Uh, Mina is town. That's totally a stance.
but that's easy to say just like scum can easily attack anti-town peoples
Any posts that don't sound like Mollie are probably not Mollie. Posts that have sentences beginning with capital letters are not Mollie. A portion of the day phase's posts have not been Mollie either. <3In post 1039, Medea the Alien wrote:Mollie, unvote. If you think there's the slightest chance Cabd and I are town here, work with us on this.
For example, from #884 onwards, only 900 and 1006 are mollie.
--PA
P-edit: Some of Mina's more recent posts have felt off. Nothing I'm super-confident on, and maybe it's just the waffling, but I'm not inclined to read everything she posts and assume it's coming from town. Ampersand, I wish they'd answer my question, as I still don't have them as strong town, and I could see their push on BRO being a soft bus, but they're better than they were as of our last giant reads list.
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Read their ISO. They're developing reads on everyone as they go, but it isn't done in a way that indicates they have pre-set ideas of who they want strung up today. F-16 as scum in my experience tends to try to corral the town into dancing to his tune with a heavy hand. And yes, there's a difference between being assertive and trying to steamroll people.In post 1045, bazinga wrote:While I'm working on my points, why do you think Ghato is so town?
And yes, Mollie and I speak frequently about votes.
Sorry for the delay. Got hit by illness. Bottom line, we'll shift to Osseus for deadline purposes but reserve the right to be salty about it post-game if BRO is the scum we think he is.
--PA
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What in tarnation do y'all want. I've explained why BRO is either playing his worst town game I've ever seen from him or is scum. I've been doing my utmost to explain, and all I get is, 'oh, well, he told someone to fuck off, MUST BE TOWN-BRO!!!'In post 1104, bazinga wrote:In post 1103, Medea the Alien wrote:we'll shift to Osseus for deadline purposes but reserve the right to be salty about it post-game if BRO is the scum we think he is.In post 1046, bazinga wrote:like I have literally been begging you guyz, f16 and mala to fucking LOOK at it to discuss things but NOOOOOOOO you can't be bothered. I have been waiting for you guyz to do this for over a week now and you are ignoring me. you want bro lynched but you fucking fail at the follow-up.
I'm fine with assuming you folks are town, but if you have legit talking points on BRO, bring them up. I've played against BRO-scum in NY 165 and Mini 1515. This isn't me demanding he be lynched solely for not playing to his town game. This is his scum game. Beyond that, his activity this day phase is scummy independent of any meta considerations.
As far as engaging you two, did you miss this:
(With bonus necro of my unanswered question to Ampersand in there)In post 932, Medea the Alien wrote:So bazinga, let's look at this. Zero interest in actively persuading people off Osseus, wants to get our wagon through, and most telling from BRO, the idea that he'd actually shoot us if he had a vig shot tonight. BRO thinks vigs are super-anti-town; there's no way he'd be presenting shooting an active player Night One, joke or not. Once, yeah, joke. Bringing it up multiple times, not so much. It reeks of him putting on false bravado about the strength of his read.In post 929, BROseidon wrote:There are several wagons that I'd prefer to Ossy at this point. Let's flash wagon Cabd/penguin so I don't have to vig them tonight?
VOTE: Medea
And yeah, as he mentioned earlier, he doesn't have mad 'reading PA' skills, but there's been no attempt from him to do so, or, heck, to understand why people like Nacho are town reading me.
As far as his interaction with us, the first thing he did was prop up Zdenek's weak case on how Bert's posting in RVS around Mina's obviously fabricated entrance. Then when I try to discuss Mala with him, he's utterly dismissive. He throws Anything Goes around like a shield and has no interest in considering how well I know Mala's motivations. His posts don't try to present his cases on people except Mala, and there he doesn't connect with people who agree with him.
Town-BRO defending himself doesn't shut down.
And yes, Bert, you're very, very town. Just a cross you'll have to bear.
Ampersand, I still don't have a good sense of your answer to this question. Talk to me here?In post 737, Medea the Alien wrote:So Ampersand, if your read on BRO is off the quality of his reads and play and not emotions, where do you stand on him? Last I saw, you didn't know.
--PA
--PA
Because I got zero response to it. And you yelling at me to look at one specific scum game that, yes, I did see some of and in which my other head PLAYED, isn't changing my read.
--PA
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A quick read through BRO's ISO in Sabotage shows that when he was under pressure D2, his reads and interactions were also superficial without much attempt to analyze deeply or work with people. His outrage was also nearly completely missing.
Regardless, Osseus is an acceptable compromise vote and is being annoying. Which at deadline is quite sufficient to garner my vote.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Osseus
--PA
Regardless, Osseus is an acceptable compromise vote and is being annoying. Which at deadline is quite sufficient to garner my vote.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Osseus
--PA
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...and?In post 1154, bazinga wrote:that sort of implies that you are saying you are incompetent...In post 1152, Medea the Alien wrote:While I appreciate the assumption that I'm halfway competent, what exactly do you think I'm faking?
VOTE: BROseidon
--PA
--PA
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A snarky joke deserves an equally snarky response, no?In post 1154, bazinga wrote:that sort of implies that you are saying you are incompetent...In post 1152, Medea the Alien wrote:While I appreciate the assumption that I'm halfway competent, what exactly do you think I'm faking?
VOTE: BROseidon
--PA
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This one?In post 1135, Zdenek wrote:I've never been scum with a hydra and only ever hydra'd once, but does this sort of interaction between the heads make sense?
Nacho hydrae are special beatss right now because he's in way too many games, just got a new job, and sucks at time management. That said, their play here is very similar to this game I was modding:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=38199
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...Holy fuck mina did you just call us passive?In post 1155, Mina wrote:Penguin, it's mostly gut and a sense your slot is really passive.
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I've been scum with bro twice, and lost to broscum another two times. It's like you're assuming that the micro you linked is his only scumgame EVER.In post 1115, bazinga wrote:I wanted you to read an actual scum game of bros instead of saying that he is scum cos he isn't playing to his town meta. <------- I was trying to get a better read on you cos town would do this in order to be sure of a scumread. instead you have flatout ignored me and have whined incessantly about how he should be getting off the hook just cos he says "fuck you" when that has never been the case you disingenuous @#$% I was wanting to work with you but I don't think you know how.
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More seriously, Mina, what do you find town about any/all of the wagons that currently exist? Maybe start from there. And this is about as not-passive as I get here.
mollie, hell if I know. I don't track my numbers and I sometimes deliberately replace into losing prospect slots. I have examples of major screw-ups and victories as both alignments. :cuddles lone SK foray into victory close to heart:
--PA
mollie, hell if I know. I don't track my numbers and I sometimes deliberately replace into losing prospect slots. I have examples of major screw-ups and victories as both alignments. :cuddles lone SK foray into victory close to heart:
--PA
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^for you zingaIn post 1146, Mina wrote:I really don't see anything there that couldn't be faked by anyone halfway competent.
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Just saw this. Yeah sure, totally. Or you know, maybe I have setup relevant info because tammy made an oopsie.In post 856, ToastyToast wrote:was that in your scum role pM?
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You're pulling a 541 here, mollie. I was kicking and scremaing for you to kill tammy and penguin, and you helped lynch nacho anyways. Step back a second here. I've realized trying to work with you when you get frenzied usually just causes flipouts.In post 1177, bazinga wrote:there is no assumption you are just making shit upIn post 1165, Medea the Alien wrote:I've been scum with bro twice, and lost to broscum another two times. It's like you're assuming that the micro you linked is his only scumgame EVER.In post 1115, bazinga wrote:I wanted you to read an actual scum game of bros instead of saying that he is scum cos he isn't playing to his town meta. <------- I was trying to get a better read on you cos town would do this in order to be sure of a scumread. instead you have flatout ignored me and have whined incessantly about how he should be getting off the hook just cos he says "fuck you" when that has never been the case you disingenuous @#$% I was wanting to work with you but I don't think you know how.
so why when I have begging for a meta discussion have you guyz ignored it?
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Sure, don't take me for granted. Doesn't change the fact that I'm not scum. And quite frankly, unless you think I'm scum with Nacho, you should believe I'm town. Except for Micro 295 where Nacho was MIA, he's nailed scum-me to the wall in every game we've played. And even there it was a close thing--I suspect he'd have gotten F-16 back on track if the game had gone on longer.In post 1172, bazinga wrote:because the two scum games I have heard about are (1) Castle and (2) Cowardly Hider, we can't take your scumgame for granted, much less Cabd's!
What say you, dah'lin <3
I can cite my craptastic scum games too--Mini 1527, Micro 224, Newbie 1453, arguably FEA Large Theme. Most recent ones I can find.
BRO is still completely full of it that he-as-vig would shoot us given his stance on vigs. And BRO, if you thought the player list was strong, why the lack of attempts to work with anyone?
--PA
P-edit: so BRO, you say you're playing scummy to get us to wagon you for being scummy to prove that we're scum? Um...you do see the problem with that, I hope. Because I'm currently throwing up my toenails and still retain enough coherency to see the issue.
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A) I'm scum with Ghatokaca--all bets are offIn post 1194, bazinga wrote:I really don't understand why you are suggesting this and appealing to this logic, and it's unsettling.In post 1193, Medea the Alien wrote:And quite frankly, unless you think I'm scum with Nacho, you should believe I'm town
there is a combination of possibilities here and you know that
B) I'm scum, they're town, I just suddenly learned how to fool Nacho after over a year well enough to overcome even the miasma of just hammering their LyLo mislynch elsewhere
C) I'm town, they're scum--I'm still town and Nacho in particular has abandoned his go-to strategy of mislynching me at will
D) We're both town and are accurately reading one another.
Did I miss anything?
--PA
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Actually he did. I just played PV instead. Nacho wanted me dead for quite some time there. He town read me early, which may have had to do with multiball, don't know. When the dust settled he read me right.In post 1197, bazinga wrote:he sure as hell didn't nail you in manaical street. so that is a lieIn post 1193, Medea the Alien wrote:Sure, don't take me for granted. Doesn't change the fact that I'm not scum. And quite frankly, unless you think I'm scum with Nacho, you should believe I'm town. Except for Micro 295 where Nacho was MIA, he's nailed scum-me to the wall in every game we've played. And even there it was a close thing--I suspect he'd have gotten F-16 back on track if the game had gone on longer.In post 1172, bazinga wrote:because the two scum games I have heard about are (1) Castle and (2) Cowardly Hider, we can't take your scumgame for granted, much less Cabd's!
What say you, dah'lin <3
...I don't even. If you play like scum, you're going to be wagoned like scum: namely, by town. And playing to the head of this hydra that's less entrenched, not so likely. And I've been citing Mini 1515, so try again.In post 1198, BROseidon wrote:Misdirect on to self day 1, but not quite enough to get lynched.In post 1193, Medea the Alien wrote:P-edit: so BRO, you say you're playing scummy to get us to wagon you for being scummy to prove that we're scum? Um...you do see the problem with that, I hope. Because I'm currently throwing up my toenails and still retain enough coherency to see the issue.
Use vig shot to conftown self.
Leverage people scum reading me day 1 to figure out who are scum.
--PA
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If he's a vig (major if) he shouldn't be shooting anyone because his reads are crap.
Although chamber, if he was a vig, who would you want him to shoot?
--PA
P-edit: Nacho had me as scum for minimum the last three days. He just agreed to lynch Bulbazak first.
Look, bottom line, do you think we're scum, mollie? If not, how about addressing BRO's skeezy argument that he played scummy to find scum? And chose to reveal this four hours to deadline?
Although chamber, if he was a vig, who would you want him to shoot?
--PA
P-edit: Nacho had me as scum for minimum the last three days. He just agreed to lynch Bulbazak first.
Look, bottom line, do you think we're scum, mollie? If not, how about addressing BRO's skeezy argument that he played scummy to find scum? And chose to reveal this four hours to deadline?
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Townread on mala ---> Vote for bro, people~In post 1234, Malakittens wrote:Uggh.
I don't really believe BRO's claim, but I feel like he's trying to "defend" his scumminess as a plot the whole time because of his role.
Then there's the part where I don't see my role and his role on town. The only way this is true is if scum is stacked.
So, either he's mafia or he's an SK plain and simple.
I'm sorry, but I'm not removing my vote off him.
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Oh, brilliant, you're going to sheep the guy who intentionally played to his scum meta and couldn't even claim properly when run up as a result of said scummy play. Which, you have no idea how annoyed I am that he opted to play that way. And interesting that you're willing to skip through his list like that. Of course, by 'interesting' I mean 'illogical' but choose your own adjective. So many nice ones. Imbecilic. Inane. Idiotic. Need I go on?In post 1385, bazinga wrote:we talked last night and intend to sheep the shit out of BroIn post 1375, BROseidon wrote:PL Mala->Ambersand->Medea->Ghato
VOTE: Medea the Alien
And for people pointing out that BRO put us as a stronger scum read later, bazinga's still citing that particular post. Which, still thinking bazinga's town, but not impressed with whatever logic was used in their overnight talk.
Mala, Cabd and I agree about Hanzo, actually. I'm also suspicious of Ampersand, but the big thing with Hanzo too was that we had a claimed VT and a claimed vig being wagoned. I still maintain my Ghatokaca town read. Question is from that point of view, believing that you're town and knowing we're town, BRO was prepared to shoot town if he lived. Who would scum want dead in that case? I think it's a toss-up, but BRO would have 'confirmed' himself with the shot, which meant using a NK on him, whereas Ghatokaca remained lynchable later. Thinking that the likely free town death wouldn't be worth the limitations later. But helping to lynch a claimed town PR, not so great, which means I'm looking at people who were cheerleading the BRO wagon without hopping on or who hopped on under easily retractable pretexts. Which, yes, deadline counts.
That line of thought could be off if scum would have favored using BRO for the free kill. I still think we're going to find scum in people who were egging on wagons while staying off said wagons and/or leaving themselves plenty of room to dodge the blame for town flips.
Talking to Cabd now about who besides Hanzo and Mina meets those criteria, although I'd toss Ampersand on there too off the top of my head.
Mina, Hanzo offering himself up as a deadline lynch at an hour before deadline when nearly everyone was on Ghatokaca or BRO wasn't townie. No dice. It was a wholly hollow offer that wasn't going to be accepted. And frankly, if Hanzo's town, which is looking less and less likely, in saying that he was implying that he doesn't have a PR that would be worthwhile to the town and so is reducing scum's pool of where to find PR threats. Not seeing town-Hanzo here.
notscience, sheeping BRO here is less than...inspired. If you're going to toss 295 around as a reason for scumreading me, might I remind you that BRO's read on me there wasn't correct? And frankly I'd hope you could come up with a better reason than what's effectively 'penguin was scum in another game, she might be scum here too!' if you think I'm scum. Also would love to hear why Hanzo and ToastyToast are town to you.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hanzo_5
Can't make up his mind whether to blame Mala or Mina for the BRO lynch, generally plays anti-town as discussed above, pushing the idea that scum-Mala would soft-CC town basically to save a presumed scum buddy-Ghatokaca from the lynch while leaving both of them implicated = I'm happy to lynch him.
Cabd had some other points about Hanzo, but he can go into those.
--PA
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I disagree. There were two wagons going that both had a lot of people scum-reading them. Hanzo clearly supported a Ghatokaca wagon over a BRO wagon, and not in a 'lesser of two evils' type of way. Looking back on it, that's scum that wants to be on-record not thinking either lynch was a good idea while voting one anyways.
...BRO claimed that he was deliberately posting like he did in his scum game. Do you dispute this? Why on earth does anyone think that someone who plays to their scum meta and then claims to be doing so deliberately as town should believed in the slightest?In post 1427, Mina wrote:Medea is either scum or playing really badly (look at their attacks on BRO after his claim)
OK, I'm putting this here based on my first read-through of the thread. A few things to get straight here:
1) BRO stated at the end of the day that he was deliberately playing to a version of his scum meta. Knowing that there were people in the game who knew him reasonably well and who put stock in past play as indicative of future likelihoods. Whatever his plans, it should come as zero surprise that his ploy of playing like he was scum made people scum-read him.
2) He claimed X-shot vig. While this could imply a one-shot vig, which is likely what he had available to him as a JOAT, for any X > 1 and assuming town-Mala (which, this is), that makes more than a full day/night cycle inaccessible to us as a group. One day/night cycle for a gladiator choosing incorrectly and a JOAT shooting incorrectly, sure. But a multiple shot vig? BRO demonstrably didn't claim his actual role. No one knew until his flip, and berating Mala for assuming town wouldn't lie is a non-starter.
3) We were voting BRO for nine straight days. After trying to reach out to him and work with him and understand where he was coming from. When it looked like a BRO lynch wasn't going to happen, we moved to Osseus for one post as a potential compromise. Then bazinga said they were on board with a BRO lynch and it became apparent that the BRO-lynch was a real possibility, we moved our vote back. Saying that we had to be coaxed on when we spent nine days with BRO as our top scum read whom we were voting is straight-up false.
Going back to the thread...
The part where he's throwing things against the wall to see what sticks, where he gains traction in his blame game.In post 1440, bazinga wrote:motivation-wise, how is pinning it on a single person (much less Mala or Mina considering what happened) optimal??
WRT to Mala asking if she should gladiate, I'd say not unless people actually doubt her alignment/claim. I've seen it used to town's benefit once in my experience, but circumstances weren't anything like here. I don't know though; it's her claimed power role, and I think leashing her when she's a pretty strong town read is iffy. It's like leashing a vig, I guess, but controlling her shot at all implies more that it's like leashing an SK.
Osseus's 'case' on Ghatokaca is awful. Claiming that all the scum piled on one lynch and none considered the value of voting Ghatokaca is absurd. Town v. scum or town v. town, I'd be shocked if scum didn't want to spread out their options.
Actually, all the Ghatokaca cases that I've seen are bad. As far as I can tell, they come from their reads of unflipped players or their use of meta in the person of F-16.
ToastyToast, as addressed above, characterizing our vote as wagon hopping is utterly bizarre. Are you considering what we posted or just looking at final placement on the wagon there?
mollie, saying Ghatokaca is scum for a read on an unflipped player you disagree with and because the nightkill was reasonable to you is really weak. I do agree that BRO's a good player to have around when town. But seriously, he PLAYED TO HIS SCUM META. Like, I cannot emphasize this enough. Yeah, I scum-read him. This was apparently one of his wacky D1 town gambits, but usually if it walks like scum and talks like scum, it's scum. And as far as me not jumping to read a specific scum-BRO game, did you consider reading one of the scum-BRO games I was talking about? Giving me a reading assignment is not working with me, sorry. Also add me to those who wants Bert to stop imitating you. I have enough trouble distinguishing hydra heads when they don't have super-distinct styles without one of the heads messing around.
Also, mollie, I realize that it's fun to find yourself in agreement with a player, but I'd ask you to step back and look at Mina's posts without the sheen of 'hey, someone who mimics my thought process!' Yes, town can be indecisive, but the way she's waffling and playing it up isn't town trying to figure things out; it's scum putting on a show. I do agree with F-16 here even though I can see Hanzo as scum as well where he doesn't for whatever reason. Empathizing with someone is admirable, but it doesn't make them town.
Osseus, I'm going to be frank here. BRO doesn't have a kickass record of reading me. His read on us was because we scum read him for playing to his scum game. And that's the strongest case I've seen against us so far. So yeah, I'm not impressed with the 'sheep the dead townie' stance.
Ampersand, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the leading contenders for the lynch so far today as you see it.
--PA
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But wait, there's mooooooore.
In case anyone was doubting mala-town.In post 1391, Malakittens wrote:Explain this because im not followig. He was scum reading me all game.In post 1389, notscience wrote:Mala's read said PL which implies he thought her more t own than scum, no?
If Medea was the stronger of everyone he would have moved them over Amper.
Peng already touched on this but how the fuck is ANYTHING here like her play in 295? At all?In post 1410, notscience wrote: Medea <---Cabd always defaults to a scumreadI dunno, it's partial sheeping Bro and partial BoP scumread after 295 for Peng and I'm not really able to call them town
Well I'm about to go more into detail on that.In post 1430, Mina wrote:The main thing holding me back on Medea is the roleblocker thing, bazinga.
So... you scumread him as well, you lynched him with us.... and now we're scum for lynching him?In post 1433, bazinga wrote:Ohey chamber.In post 1398, chamber wrote:Why did you ultimately decide that BRO was the better lynch than ghat?
We decided to lynch Bro because in a sense, Nacho gave us some townie feelings (he may have been reaching out to us), and thus the hydra was not plain and simple scum. Falcon was giving us scumvibes throughout the day, but Nacho did not compound them. We gave Nacho the benefit of the doubt, as he has not been present much in this game so far.
On the other hand, we believed that Bro had a good chance of flipping SK. So far, his reads had had no substance whatsoever, and it took him until near-DL to produce a well-processed reads list. During Bro's flailing near DL, there were second thoughts. Afterwards, we were confused about why he didn't claim his true role, instead labeling it as a Vig.
Personally, I thought he was lacking fire in his posts.
But the mudslinging at us was totally justified and not worth mentioning gotcha.In post 1435, bazinga wrote:ETA: Partly, Bro's play was being judged from a meta-standpoint, of which we have some to fall back on in terms of past history. That is part of where our scumread on him came from.
For me, his last moments were rather full of mudslinging at ns, and the appeal to fear became almost pure noise that made me not want to spare him at all.
Except we do thanks to tammy's slip, which is in my next post.In post 1440, bazinga wrote:this argument is full of irrelevancies. Mostly, we don't know how scum is geared, or whether they are geared to stop townies with kills.
Despite wishing she was scum so she'd be justified in her bad read on us, I don't think so really.In post 1456, chamber wrote:@people who can read mollie: Are you sure shes actually town?
Insert Tammy twitch here.In post 1462, Mina wrote:Why did you not just claim on D1, Malakittens? Or even use the role at the end of D1? I mean, if you were convinced BRO was scum, why not use it to force us to lynch him instead of Ghatokaca?
Assumption? He fucking LIED ABOUT HIS ROLE and never corrected the fakelclaim even in death. (Which btw is shit because now we have no idea what his joat powers were, leaving a fuckton more fakeclaims options open to scum)In post 1463, bazinga wrote:^Yep, Mina's right. This doesn't make sense.
Also, I don't understand how Chamber can think that CCing it yesterday makes sense given that Mala was operating under the assumption that Bro was claiming a Vig (not JOAT). Please explain
Do people actually design games such that main characters are always town? Like, Tammy's a smart lady, she's good enough to not make her game breakable by flavor. She probably just took 13 "good" names, tossed them into random.org, and the top three became fakeclaims.In post 1469, Mina wrote:(I should mention it's possible Dorothy Gale is actually scum in this set-up, since the Wicked Witch of the West is actually the heroine defeated by her. And Malacouldbe claiming her real name rather than her fakeclaim to bolster the flavour. But Dorothy is portrayed as naive and well-meaning in the book/play, so she also works as town.)
I take this to mean your townread on us has gone south for the winter?In post 1471, Malakittens wrote:Also I'm not going to let him sit by and say 'hey I'm going to vig Medea' who at the time was a strong town read especially when his role does indeed conflict with mine and I had a reason to suspect he was scum fake claiming.
Holy shit mollie, are you fucking kidding me right now? BRO lied and drew out what is in my eyes another town PR. Because he couldn't be assed to claim properly. And that's somehow mala's fault? Like Bro did the equivalent of VT claiming cop on day one. The potential to draw a CC from the actual town PR is too high. Town doesn't fakeclaim on day one. Fucking SCUM does.In post 1493, bazinga wrote:his role does not conflict with yours. mina is right it was shitty to mislead us with false intimationsIn post 1471, Malakittens wrote:You shouldn't be full bitchy at me. Had he actually claimed his correct role he could have survived the lynch, but he didn't so him and i are both at fault for how his lynch went down. Also I'm not going to let him sit by and say 'hey I'm going to vig Medea' who at the time was a strong town read especially when his role does indeed conflict with mine and I had a reason to suspect he was scum fake claiming.
You know this is the first vote I think I've gotten for "omg cabd gambits must be scum" given I gambit as every alignment. Collect your award now!In post 1495, Ampersand wrote:Cabd is known for gambitting; I'd put that down as a weak scum tell if anything.In post 1430, Mina wrote:The main thing holding me back on Medea is the roleblocker thing, bazinga.
Vote: Medea
We'll ISO UThydra as soon as we have some time.
You see it as well, then.In post 1507, chamber wrote:The kill mostly. But the flow of yesterdays end of day wagons was also just... off.In post 1499, Malakittens wrote:If I asked why chamber would you answer it? Super pretty pls
You can call it a hop if you want, but BRO was our prefered lynch for the entire fucking day, we only left it to compromise, and rejoined it when mollie asked us and it bcame viable.In post 1517, ToastyToast wrote:@bazinga: ghat and medea still. I need to reread the bro lynch debacle to figure out whose wagon hop was the scummiest.
Holy misrep of wagon flow, batman. You can be lazy, but this is a bit much. Mollie starts the wagon, we rejoin it glad it's now viable. She literally asked us "hey guys come with us and reform the BRO wagon" and you're trying to say we started it all of a sudden?In post 1528, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:
Medea - This is the slot that really started the Bro wagon with just about 7 hours till deadline. At that point it was still Ossy vs. Ghat, with Ghat looking like they'd be lynched. Honestly I could probably link this slot to Ghat as scum together. If there was a plan to turn the vote around on the claimed Vig, this is the player that started it.
Felt nothing. "Hey zack mollie wants to reform the bro wagon and it's picking up votes, let's go?" "Fuck yeah peng"In post 1534, bazinga wrote:itYou said you have to coax Medea on a lynch they wanted anyway. What do you feel about that? I made that other post essentially by going through everyone's ISO and finding their last Bro vote. I didn't look in context because it was just a quick way for me to break down the wagon. So in context you were coaxing them on the lynch and...?feltlike they had to coaxed when they were already scumreading him and pushing for his lynch. I dunno. medeas was 1 of the places where my reads intersected with bro's and that is pretty huge which is why we were voting them. the only thing that worries me is that we are wrong in our scumreads and that is why we are still alive
He plays to his scum meta, says that his scumreads are scumreads for (correctly according to him) reading him as scum? Yeah I'm saying his reads are shit.In post 1540, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Also what in the fuck is this? Discrediting Bro's reads because he got lynched?In post 1423, Medea the Alien wrote:Oh, brilliant, you're going to sheep the guy who intentionally played to his scum meta and couldn't even claim properly when run up as a result of said scummy play. Which, you have no idea how annoyed I am that he opted to play that way. And interesting that you're willing to skip through his list like that. Of course, by 'interesting' I mean 'illogical' but choose your own adjective. So many nice ones. Imbecilic. Inane. Idiotic. Need I go on?
And here I was about to make your day with a Mina wagon. I'd ask you to explain but you probably won't really.
More fucking sloppy play. It was VERY obvious they were calling him Poseidon as a thematic thing.In post 1549, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:I mean all I did was go into your ISO, search for instances of the letters "Bro" and found that they came up only 9 times in your entire ISO, mostly from quoting someone else, and never about mentioning him as scum. So go ahead and point out where I missed exactly what I was looking for please.
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I've thought it through and I don't really see much how it helps scum to know our role here vs. town knowing there's a (most likely scum) RB running around.
Our ability is unable to be blocked, and tammy (accidentally we assume) worded it to say that our ability was not blockable by role blocker. We shot it off at Nachofalcon last night about fifteen minutes after the lynchscene for optimal length of use, and as they can confirm, it took effect immediately, not at the end of the night. Falcon and I discussed meta reads a bit after cracking jokes about mini 1351. Nacho never showed up.
There's a few trajectory changes from their reads in the QT vs.their reads here D2 that I want to talk to falcon about, as well. (Hood is night only)
So we're Glinda the Good, neighborizer.
Our ability is unable to be blocked, and tammy (accidentally we assume) worded it to say that our ability was not blockable by
the
There's a few trajectory changes from their reads in the QT vs.their reads here D2 that I want to talk to falcon about, as well. (Hood is night only)
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I thought it might have been a part of Bro's JOAT, but I feel like he would have done SOMETHING seeing us claim there was a RB in the game. That said, I'm assuming it's scum but it ~technically~ could be town? Like I don't see why one or two people having roles that are alignment neutral suddenly makes a more scumfriendly role likely to be town? It's possible as I said, but not likely.In post 1564, chamber wrote:Its curious to me that you wouldn't consider the possibility of a town roleblocker, given that from your POV you are a town!neighbourizer and mala is a town!gladiator iyo, roleblocker seems to go along side them in terms of roles that can be town or scum/are often seen on or make more sense on, scum.
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I'm not sure of the count of PRs in the setup. I only know my own role, and what is flipped and claimed. I haven't played under Tammy before, so I'm not sure how power heavy she likes her games. Explain why a RB interacts poorly with a JOAT?In post 1566, chamber wrote:How many town power roles do you expect to be on the towns side? A roleblocker can't effect mala and interacts quite poorly with a JOAT, and doesn't effect you at all apparently. How many people are you expecting it to work on that are left?
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I read the book several years ago, but I haven't seen the play itself. Your theory is possible, I guess? Once again, has anyone here played under tammy on MS or her home site in themes?In post 1568, chamber wrote:Given the nature of the play as I understand it (the wicked witch being the main character), it seemed like it could be thematically playful to give the town a bunch of scum abilities?In post 1567, Medea the Alien wrote:That said, I'm assuming it's scum but it ~technically~ could be town? Like I don't see why one or two people having roles that are alignment neutral suddenly makes a more scumfriendly role likely to be town? It's possible as I said, but not likely.
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?In post 1570, chamber wrote:'scum'
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^This should read "1531", my bad.In post 1559, Medea the Alien wrote:mini 1351
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In post 1577, chamber wrote:I mean, thinking about it more I'm not even sure your role strictly implies a roleblocker exists. It just lets the action resolve right away regardless of whether there is one or not. Hmm.
In post 1559, Medea the Alien wrote:Our ability is unable to be blocked, and tammy (accidentally we assume) worded it to say that our ability was not blockable byrole blocker.the
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Don't even get me started. I can only assume the universe is immensely enjoying my life at present. There's probably an awesome German word to describe it, but I can't be bothered to find it. Suggestions welcome.In post 1586, Malakittens wrote:Sorry Cabd, but I take a neighborzing claim with a grain of salt coming from you~
Just part of our role. There wasn't anything special we had to do or flavor justification.Cabd or Peng can you explain how you got neighborzing chat right away though? I always thought that neighborizing was a delayed thing rather than an instant, but that could depend on the view of the mod in question though.
We've had a strong town read on them for a while now, and we opted to follow it in using our PR. We'd planned to have it provide a space where Cabd and F-16 could meta-dive to their hearts' content and get Ghatokaca's thoughts on record in case they got derp-lynched today, but the latter was more successful than the former due to F-16's IRL commitments. We considered the utility of neighborizing one of our other town reads, but we figured that we could talk to you pretty readily in-thread (and there maaaay have been a limit to the amount of irony I was willing to permit the universe), notscience might not be much more chatty-hunting than in-thread, and we figured if we neighborized bazinga we'd spend the whole night phase dealing with their paranoia. There wasn't anyone else we were willing to trust in a QT for an entire game based on Day One activity.In post 1587, Malakittens wrote:Fawk. Pressed submit too fast, lol.
Can you explain why you guys neighborized Ghat?
Ghato was town reading you as of last night. Heck if I know why. And basically, I don't get your stance then. You know your own alignment beyond a shadow of a doubt, right? You only think you've figured out anyone else. Why would you sacrifice yourself, a known, for an unknown? And energy spent putting yourself up on the gallows is better spent pushing your scum read from a town POV. It reads fake to me.In post 1584, Hanzo_5 wrote:I disagree. I was for a ghato lynch and I would take BRO's place if it would save BRO from getting lynched. I dont even see where it looks like i dodnt think either lynch is a good idea. I was for a ghato lynch. And not for a bro lynch. Thats a bit of a stretch. Why are you trying so hard to paint scum on me? is it because you dont want to waste a NK on me? Are you trying to set me up to take the lylo fall? I think thats the game plan for today. Because both medea and Ghato are trying to paint me scummy. Ghato seems to be doing it more subtlely but I see it.In post 1556, Medea the Alien wrote:I disagree. There were two wagons going that both had a lot of people scum-reading them. Hanzo clearly supported a Ghatokaca wagon over a BRO wagon, and not in a 'lesser of two evils' type of way. Looking back on it, that's scum that wants to be on-record not thinking either lynch was a good idea while voting one anyways.
Why are you concerned with LyLo? Do you think we're not going to lynch scum today? Why do you even think you're going to be around at any conceivable endgames if you're so clearly town from your POV?
In post 1590, Hanzo_5 wrote:Notscience, I am not scumreading mala.
In post 1478, Hanzo_5 wrote:Malakittens i am not tunneling you. I have never been tunnelling you I see other players but you have done things that strike me as more scummy than others. I do not think this is tunneling. In anycase mina brought up a good point and i just dont see you making that move as town. I do see that it was not the best thing you could have done. IME outguessing the mod does not lead to the result we often anticipate.
What changed between the second and third quotes? Specifics would be good.In post 1505, Hanzo_5 wrote:NS, I think nacho is scum because of his malakittens read and his mollie(bazinga) read. I think that he gave Mala's play too much of a pass and I think that he should have been scum reading mollie because she was fairly inactive in the begining and I have seen where he has caught her as scum for that reason before.
____
I mostly deal in a absolutes. I thought you were scum and I gave you ample room and time to convince me of otherwise. By admiting that i have my eye on other players you admit that I do not have tunnel vision and I am not tunneling you. I have a had a change of heart because I just dont see scum risking their lynch that hard to get a vig killed. I still have my doubts and Bro did say the way you claimed allowed for you to wiggle around his flip. So i have you leaning town.
--PA
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You'd have been paranoid of Cabd, but based on in-thread content that wouldn't have impeded me and you working together at least a bit, not to mention that assuming we both survived to subsequent nights, we'd probably be able to build on our reads. If nothing else, had we neighborized you, I'd have been willing to share my thoughts on the game with you without demanding reciprocation and let you come to your own conclusions. But like I said, that's nothing that can't happen in-thread anyways. With bazinga, I don't think we'd have been able to reach anything approaching an accord long enough to be productive. Plus mollie wavers a lot, which would mean we'd probably be rehashing the same ground if we were alive for future nights. The dominant issue in considering neighborizing each of you was different, basically.In post 1594, Malakittens wrote:I think it's probably better you didn't neighborize me because I would have taken the night phrase being paranoid of you rather than actually working with you. Cabd has played a gambit on me before (Paradox) and then watching him first hand gambit with the neighborize with you as scum in Sixty's game. I would have been paranoid that you were willing to try and pull a fast one on me.In post 1593, Medea the Alien wrote:
We've had a strong town read on them for a while now, and we opted to follow it in using our PR. We'd planned to have it provide a space where Cabd and F-16 could meta-dive to their hearts' content and get Ghatokaca's thoughts on record in case they got derp-lynched today, but the latter was more successful than the former due to F-16's IRL commitments. We considered the utility of neighborizing one of our other town reads, but we figured that we could talk to you pretty readily in-thread (and there maaaay have been a limit to the amount of irony I was willing to permit the universe), notscience might not be much more chatty-hunting than in-thread, and we figured if we neighborized bazinga we'd spend the whole night phase dealing with their paranoia. There wasn't anyone else we were willing to trust in a QT for an entire game based on Day One activity.
Why were you saying that you expected Bazinga to be paranoid about it, but not say the same thing about me?
/feels off~
You can call it scummy if you'd like, although I'd ask why we'd push BRO in particular in an effort to save Ghatokaca, but the point is you can't say we hopped on the wagon willy-nilly here.In post 1595, ToastyToast wrote:That doesn't make it less scummy. I still have the feeling BRO was your preferred lynched so you could save your ghat scum buddy.In post 1557, Medea the Alien wrote:You can call it a hop if you want, but BRO was our prefered lynch for the entire fucking day, we only left it to compromise, and rejoined it when mollie asked us and it bcame viable.
Also,
1) Why did you neighborize Ghat over someone who found you suspicious? Don't you think it would be beneficial for your town game to neighborize a player most consider town and thus has more ability to back up your claim. It seriously doesn't make sense to me why you would use your power on someone people thought you could be scumbuddies with. I have no confidence in your claim because you could have easily been talking in the scum chat--not to mention there are scum neighborizers.
2) WHy the hell would you even claim? Also you already told us about the roleblocker thing. This claim does nothing but give scum information if you are town, in exchange for a relatively useless piece of information for town. "Oh no, I NEVER expected a roleblocker to be in a game before!"
1) Um...what does backing up our claim have to do with anything? Heck, if we'd neighborized someone who denied it'd had happened, guess what? Instant caught scum. I'd take a 1:1 trade of us versus scum caught that way. As far as neighborizing someone who finds us suspicious, we have to live with this neighbor for as long as we're in the game. No backsies. Leaving out bazinga, Mala, and notscience, who do you think is a strong enough universal town read to be worth neighborizing? And how would anything we say to them be more persuasive than what we could say in the thread? Not to mention, um, universal town reads are excellent night kill targets. Neighborizing someone who's likely to be NK'd early is also pretty pointless.
Sure there are scum neighborizers. But do you really think scum-Cabd would let us waste the chance to screw around with a townie by neighborizing a scum buddy? I suppose he could do it for the laughs/to be unpredictable, but quite frankly he plays to win, and he'd have the confidence to figure that he could get more mileage out of manipulating a townie.
2) Reactions, discussion, etc. Plus people were asking about the roleblocker issue, so I'd have given it low odds that we wouldn't have been heavily pressured to claim at some point today anyways. This way there's time to chat.
--PA
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We're townreading Ghatokaca. Any other town reads we had at the start of Night One would have been decidedly less productive in the QT for personality clash reasons or scum reading reasons, or they would have been a wash with what could be accomplished in the game thread. You're welcome to suggest who we should have neighborized instead any time, and none of this vague 'universal town read' stuff, please.In post 1597, ToastyToast wrote:I think you are lying about your neighbor claim is the point. Choosing to "use" this power on Ghato is part of the reason why.of all the people you could have had a neighborhood with, why choose Ghatokaca
Why push BRO in particular? Because there was enough momentum against him to make it possible.
You say our choice of targets is 'part' of the reason why you don't believe our claim. What's the other part? You do realize that if we're scum we just painted ourselves into a corner here in that making any other claim in the future would be suicide, as would be having to explain any evidence that we were anything but a neighborizer.
And where did the momentum against BRO come from? I don't suppose we were heavily involved or anything...wait...
--PA
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Eh, mollie, you read enough to have an opinion on what I've posted, so if you opt to get back to me on anything, I have faith in your ability to read the tl;dr, especially since you saw where I specifically addressed you. I'm not restating a damn thing.
As far as BRO goes, I tried reaching out. He wasn't interested. I mean, I guess he talked about reciprocating with a bullet, but I really don't count that, oddly enough.
If you don't want to talk to me and would prefer to deal with Cabd, that's fine; I wish him the joy of you.
--PA
P-edit: I addressed that in my reply to Toasty, Hanzo...
As far as BRO goes, I tried reaching out. He wasn't interested. I mean, I guess he talked about reciprocating with a bullet, but I really don't count that, oddly enough.
Not sure how much clearer he could have been here that he was reproducing a version of his scum game play here. He's also implying that he did this as a trap, not as meta-dodging, since supposedly he wouldn't reproduce scum tactics? Despite his faction winning that game?In post 1204, BROseidon wrote:The fact that nobody's really cited Tohou mini against me despite the fact that I'm literally using the same day 1 tactics I used there should be a pretty strong indication that I'm town and that Cabd/Nacho are scum, since they both saw me do this exact same thing there and could have used that argument against me. Penguin's sort of cited it, but didn't really cite it.
If you don't want to talk to me and would prefer to deal with Cabd, that's fine; I wish him the joy of you.
--PA
P-edit: I addressed that in my reply to Toasty, Hanzo...
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So mollie, what I don't understand about your stance is that you say BRO was baiting us, yet you don't think he was playing to his scum game? How was he baiting us then? And you had one scum game you didn't think was consistent with his play here; I had other games that I thought were. As I said, I'm not a meta-diver myself (my use of meta comes more from actual play experience, as I don't get as engaged when reading games versus playing in them) but I did have a go at looking over Sabotage as you saw in 1116. You commented on having vaguely followed NY 165 for having enjoyed finding the SK, but you didn't comment on my take on Sabotage, nor did you comment on what BRO actually did in NY 165.
Why should I be less confident in my scum reads? They aren't/weren't dependent on BRO flipping scum, and I had all of the night phase to discuss the game with Cabd in hydra and F-16 and Cabd in the neighborhood. My list is somewhat reordered as per our vote and the scum reads I'm emphasizing here. I was getting bad vibes from Mina near the end of the day, but frankly I didn't care to derail things when the BRO lynch was so touch-and-go. Mina was one of the things we discussed in our neighborhood (I think Cabd posted a summary of the neighborhood already, but basically it went, 'revel in the cosmic joke being played on PA, affirm our town-Mala reads (ooh, buddy alert!)...hm, rereading, F-16 makes a good point about Hanzo. I'll let him share when he gets in here next. Anyways, F-16 broke things down into town and scum piles, we discussed Mina a bit, and then F-16 disappeared, presumably for the cited RL reasons.)
UNVOTE:
You say F-16's showing up upon his name being invoked is one of the big reasons for your scum read on Ghatokaca. Is the rest of your case just 1519? Because it really doesn't hold up, to put it bluntly. You don't agree with their reads on unflipped players, the NK could come from them, and then your post goes off on being upset that no one ever engaged your BRO meta despite the above. Basically the second half of your case paragraph isn't actually a case on Ghatokaca; it's your regrets at not lynching Ghatokaca yesterday.
So let's pretend that you're town reading me and want to convince me to put Ghatokaca at L-1 (which, they claimed yesterday, I'm not sure why putting them in hammer is beneficial). What do you have?
--PA
P-edit: Hanzo, if you're being town read by everyone but us, Mala, and ns, why do you think that would change at LyLo?
Running with your theory that we and Ghatokaca are scum together, I'm sure you wouldn't mind explaining the benefits inherent in our cooking up this claim together? Given that three players generally regarded as competent plus me would have had to decide that it was a good idea in the wake of BRO's town flip.
(Also, you regurgitating our reasons for claiming here is pretty much the definition of IIoA, but I'll let it slide past the noting of it...and where do you think analysis comes from if not information? Hence the 'reactions and discussion' part of our reasoning...)
Why should I be less confident in my scum reads? They aren't/weren't dependent on BRO flipping scum, and I had all of the night phase to discuss the game with Cabd in hydra and F-16 and Cabd in the neighborhood. My list is somewhat reordered as per our vote and the scum reads I'm emphasizing here. I was getting bad vibes from Mina near the end of the day, but frankly I didn't care to derail things when the BRO lynch was so touch-and-go. Mina was one of the things we discussed in our neighborhood (I think Cabd posted a summary of the neighborhood already, but basically it went, 'revel in the cosmic joke being played on PA, affirm our town-Mala reads (ooh, buddy alert!)...hm, rereading, F-16 makes a good point about Hanzo. I'll let him share when he gets in here next. Anyways, F-16 broke things down into town and scum piles, we discussed Mina a bit, and then F-16 disappeared, presumably for the cited RL reasons.)
UNVOTE:
You say F-16's showing up upon his name being invoked is one of the big reasons for your scum read on Ghatokaca. Is the rest of your case just 1519? Because it really doesn't hold up, to put it bluntly. You don't agree with their reads on unflipped players, the NK could come from them, and then your post goes off on being upset that no one ever engaged your BRO meta despite the above. Basically the second half of your case paragraph isn't actually a case on Ghatokaca; it's your regrets at not lynching Ghatokaca yesterday.
So let's pretend that you're town reading me and want to convince me to put Ghatokaca at L-1 (which, they claimed yesterday, I'm not sure why putting them in hammer is beneficial). What do you have?
--PA
P-edit: Hanzo, if you're being town read by everyone but us, Mala, and ns, why do you think that would change at LyLo?
Running with your theory that we and Ghatokaca are scum together, I'm sure you wouldn't mind explaining the benefits inherent in our cooking up this claim together? Given that three players generally regarded as competent plus me would have had to decide that it was a good idea in the wake of BRO's town flip.
(Also, you regurgitating our reasons for claiming here is pretty much the definition of IIoA, but I'll let it slide past the noting of it...and where do you think analysis comes from if not information? Hence the 'reactions and discussion' part of our reasoning...)
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WRT LyLo, sure, but the issue is that if everyone's town reading you, pushing your lynch gets us exactly nowhere.In post 1612, Hanzo_5 wrote:Medea thats the point. In a lylo situation the scum is not going to push on their fake town read. they would push on their fake scum read.
And i analysed the information. so its not IoA. You gave us IoA. In that you are just giving us information and not an analysis. And the information you gave us does what exactly? supports your claim and doesnt help scum all conveinintly. Like I said i think this claim is fake and you guys would have to cook it up together for both of you to be scum. I really doubt that you are a scum NBizer and I really doubt that you would basically tell us how you would use the power while using the power in that way. So if ghat flips town you are more than likely town too in my eyes atleast.
So are you misrepping me now? Because that was not IoA at all....
First time through there was no analysis. Saying you don't believe something doesn't count as analyzing it. This time through, you're mostly right that our claim doesn't help scum. Why wouldn't we be a scum neighborizer telling you exactly what we did? What's the benefit to us as scum inextricably linking ourselves to the counterwagon of a town lynch if that player's going to flip scum?
This may be a rabbit hole, and I'm actually OK with you assuming our alignment matches Ghatokaca's.
--PA
P-edit: yeah, F-16, I agree on Hanzo at this point. You basically said the same thing in the QT, but I got offtrack with Mina's hard-core white knighting. Replying to mollie and then you in more detail...
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mollie, I'm going to keep this brief, as we're going in circles here.
BRO was playing to a version of his scum game, full stop. It may not have been the scum game you'd expect from him, but that doesn't make my observation invalid.
Off the top of my head, I have nine games with BRO as various alignments, several games hydraing with him, and several offsite.
My points about his play in Sabotage matched the reasons I was scum reading him here. Did you not see that?
I think the beetlejuice tell is silly, actually. So if you have other reasons for scum-reading Ghatokaca, yeah, I wanted to hear them.
As far as being willing to work with you and citing X-Men as evidence to the contrary, I used my sole vig shot on Nacho in part due to your read. On the other hand, at the time you said it was Nacho or me, so you can see where I might not blindly sheep your read as town. And then you ended up elsewhere. Ever since NY 164, you've written me off as unreadable, and the tendency has been to find really minor things to scum read me for. See: Micro 248. Oddly enough, it doesn't inspire confidence in the idea of us bouncing off one another productively.
Finally, yeah, I'm playing differently here. What of it? You really think this is my early NY 164 play?
I'll turn you over to Cabd whenever he gets in here. I'm getting tired of beating my head against a wall, and I'm obviously not doing a good job of communicating with you here anyways.
--PA
BRO was playing to a version of his scum game, full stop. It may not have been the scum game you'd expect from him, but that doesn't make my observation invalid.
Off the top of my head, I have nine games with BRO as various alignments, several games hydraing with him, and several offsite.
My points about his play in Sabotage matched the reasons I was scum reading him here. Did you not see that?
I think the beetlejuice tell is silly, actually. So if you have other reasons for scum-reading Ghatokaca, yeah, I wanted to hear them.
As far as being willing to work with you and citing X-Men as evidence to the contrary, I used my sole vig shot on Nacho in part due to your read. On the other hand, at the time you said it was Nacho or me, so you can see where I might not blindly sheep your read as town. And then you ended up elsewhere. Ever since NY 164, you've written me off as unreadable, and the tendency has been to find really minor things to scum read me for. See: Micro 248. Oddly enough, it doesn't inspire confidence in the idea of us bouncing off one another productively.
Finally, yeah, I'm playing differently here. What of it? You really think this is my early NY 164 play?
I'll turn you over to Cabd whenever he gets in here. I'm getting tired of beating my head against a wall, and I'm obviously not doing a good job of communicating with you here anyways.
--PA
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F-16, I see your point in Hanzo and his not jumping wagons. His play doesn't make sense to me full stop, but there are ways it doesn't make sense as scum too.
In your group, my S --> T list goes Mina, Osseus-Ampersand, ToastyToast, chamber. I think that scum weren't looking to stand out on the BRO wagon while still hoping it would go through. That fits Ampersand and Mina; I need to go back and look at Osseus, as I think he might have been the cheerleader.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mina
I look forward to Nacho's thoughts there, and I'd really like your take on Ampersand when you have time.
--PA
In your group, my S --> T list goes Mina, Osseus-Ampersand, ToastyToast, chamber. I think that scum weren't looking to stand out on the BRO wagon while still hoping it would go through. That fits Ampersand and Mina; I need to go back and look at Osseus, as I think he might have been the cheerleader.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mina
I look forward to Nacho's thoughts there, and I'd really like your take on Ampersand when you have time.
--PA
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Hey, TT, why do you want Ghatokaca dead? I've looked over your ISO going back a ways into Day One, and I don't see any particular reasoning for this lynch. At the end of Day One, you liked them for town with F-16 talking about never being mislynched D1. What are the three strongest points against them now? And if you're certain they're scum, what else do you want to get out of this day?In post 1627, ToastyToast wrote:agreed, although it is a little soon in the day.In post 1624, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:How the fuck is this sure fire scum lynch derailing from L-1 AGAIN?
--PA
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...as long as we're waiting, I think it was TT who said that he thought scum had taken advantage of Mala's claim to jump on the BRO wagon. Yet the only new voter there ended up being Mina. Looking at what actually happened as opposed to what might have been, how much do you like your theory? (Apologies if you already answered this and it was lost)
Mina, I remember you asked about the strength of my/our Ghatokaca town read. From my perspective, I'm betting the farm on it. I talked earlier about how incredibly unlikely I consider it that scum-Nacho would abandon a successful streak of getting me lynched at his leisure for over a year to put me in a strong town pile. F-16, when asked about Micro 295 where scum-me hammered town-Ghatokaca, had the perfect chance to reverse that read; he didn't. I suppose they could be setting up our mislynch if they're scum, but it's a lot of trouble to go in order to string someone up who was a feasible mislynch anyways earlier Day One.
Outside of my personal perspective, I think their reads are reasonable, their posts feel sincere at key times, and they're not playing to their scum games, where scum-Nacho avoids taking stances that aren't immediately useful and F-16 artificially grabs control.
Osseus, given that Ghatokaca was claimed VT and BRO was claimed PR, why wouldn't scum preferentially lynch the PR? Especially when the odds favored him flipping town (as opposed to third party) and let them wagon Ghatokaca completely reasonably the next day anyways?
Also, people darn well need to stop threatening to replace out. If you want to leave, leave; no one can stop you, annoying as replacements are. Otherwise play the darn game and get off the cross: we need the wood to build a gallows here.
--PA
Mina, I remember you asked about the strength of my/our Ghatokaca town read. From my perspective, I'm betting the farm on it. I talked earlier about how incredibly unlikely I consider it that scum-Nacho would abandon a successful streak of getting me lynched at his leisure for over a year to put me in a strong town pile. F-16, when asked about Micro 295 where scum-me hammered town-Ghatokaca, had the perfect chance to reverse that read; he didn't. I suppose they could be setting up our mislynch if they're scum, but it's a lot of trouble to go in order to string someone up who was a feasible mislynch anyways earlier Day One.
Outside of my personal perspective, I think their reads are reasonable, their posts feel sincere at key times, and they're not playing to their scum games, where scum-Nacho avoids taking stances that aren't immediately useful and F-16 artificially grabs control.
Osseus, given that Ghatokaca was claimed VT and BRO was claimed PR, why wouldn't scum preferentially lynch the PR? Especially when the odds favored him flipping town (as opposed to third party) and let them wagon Ghatokaca completely reasonably the next day anyways?
Also, people darn well need to stop threatening to replace out. If you want to leave, leave; no one can stop you, annoying as replacements are. Otherwise play the darn game and get off the cross: we need the wood to build a gallows here.
--PA
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Are you actually reading the same game I am? Because holy shit you'd think you'd read the actual game and my posts. I sure as fuck am not in a neighborhood with chamberslot. I neighborized nachofalcon. I made that explicitly clear.In post 1799, bazinga wrote:but a neighborhood? jesus christ. chamber verified that they are in an actual neighborhood I guess more can be revealed when his replacement kicks in.
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How the actual fuck does this thing have a 2010 join date? Like seriously, I want to know. Have I entered a parallel universe where this kind of shit is acceptable now? Mark my words, this will be 1525 allllll over again.In post 1784, Hanzo_5 wrote:At any rate anyone who I do not consider town I will lynch at this point and I will "likely" insta-hammer anyone in that pile that is put at L-1.
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You're being so toxic this game that neither of us really want to touch you lest the fire re-ignite. Do you not see that? Take a step back and look at what you're doing to me. This game has had one too many replace outs and I don't fancy another. I'm doing with you what ffery and I had to do with tammy in marketplace III. You may be a townread, but I have no intentions of working with you on that kind of level, because it will not end well. All this noise does nothing but clutter the thread up.In post 1799, bazinga wrote:bert and I think cabd looks town but mine comes with a strong dose of why the fuck is cabd not here hammering out reads. instead it is penny who has been wrong wrong on how she is meta-ing, how she is doing it is how I do it when I am scum. and typing this out makes me put them back to scum.
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In post 1788, Ghatokaca wrote:Although Mollie's focus on reading me as opposed to Nacho is actually troubling. She is scumreading me who she has barely played with or interacted with before (I think Death Note was the only game we played together and we had zero interaction) over Nacho with whom she has tons of games of experience both on MS and offsite and an extraordinarily high accuracy in reading. When reading a hydra, it makes a fuckton more sense to read the player that you can over the one you can't. The scumread on me could possibly be an out "Oh, wait, I never scumread Nacho, I just scumread the guy I've barely ever played with before." What is your read on Nacho, in as much detail as you can provide? The one thing I want out of you is a surefire statement explaining why you think he is scum. Her reason for scumreading me is also incredibly silly and retarded. She accuses me of getting "beetlejuiced" when I am hydra'ing with someone who she only mislynched twice before and read correctly on almost all other occasions. This is something that worries me a lot. ~ F-16
....fuck. You might actually be scum. Way to make me look like a tool. "Please nix your scumread on me and try to read the other head that hasn't even shown up this day OR night cycle" is pretty damning.
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The scum hydra of cabd and mala neighborized penguin-mason and tricked her into "confirming us as town" right before she died and we used it to autowin. So yes actually, she is right to be paranoid about me and neighborhoods. I also pulled a trick as scum in penguin's micro where I grabbed gladiator to appear more town and then a neighgorhood kinda gave me the win. (By burning mala alive sorry hun)In post 1799, bazinga wrote:but a neighborhood? jesus christ
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Erm what? He clearly just read my posts and put two and two together?In post 1812, bazinga wrote:erm.................In post 1808, Medea the Alien wrote:That's not role info; that's him reading my posts? Kats has nothing to do with it?
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[/b]In post 1410, notscience wrote: I don't like them and they should probably die soon
Ossy <--- Partial OMGUS but I can't really call them town so \o/
amper <---I can barely remember anything from this slot
Medea <---Cabd always defaults to a scumreadI dunno, it's partial sheeping Bro and partial BoP scumread after 295 for Peng and I'm not really able to call them town
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Nacho's posts aren't anything solid. You're the only one putting forth solid reads. The fact that nacho only shows up when you're in trouble is doing an absolute number on my townread here. Nacho couldn't even be assed to show up in our neighborhood last night to talk reads, but he has such a good take on the game that he's confident calling out scum pairs?In post 1810, Ghatokaca wrote:How are you missing Nacho's posts? ISO us.In post 1805, Medea the Alien wrote:In post 1788, Ghatokaca wrote:Although Mollie's focus on reading me as opposed to Nacho is actually troubling. She is scumreading me who she has barely played with or interacted with before (I think Death Note was the only game we played together and we had zero interaction) over Nacho with whom she has tons of games of experience both on MS and offsite and an extraordinarily high accuracy in reading. When reading a hydra, it makes a fuckton more sense to read the player that you can over the one you can't. The scumread on me could possibly be an out "Oh, wait, I never scumread Nacho, I just scumread the guy I've barely ever played with before." What is your read on Nacho, in as much detail as you can provide? The one thing I want out of you is a surefire statement explaining why you think he is scum. Her reason for scumreading me is also incredibly silly and retarded. She accuses me of getting "beetlejuiced" when I am hydra'ing with someone who she only mislynched twice before and read correctly on almost all other occasions. This is something that worries me a lot. ~ F-16
....fuck. You might actually be scum. Way to make me look like a tool. "Please nix your scumread on me and try to read the other head that hasn't even shown up this day OR night cycle" is pretty damning.
~ F-16
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All of our reads went out the window once I re-read 1787 and declared a hard reset to myself and peng. We'll be back once we re-read the game.In post 1819, bazinga wrote:its a more honest list then yoursIn post 1816, Medea the Alien wrote:[/b]In post 1410, notscience wrote: I don't like them and they should probably die soon
Ossy <--- Partial OMGUS but I can't really call them town so \o/
amper <---I can barely remember anything from this slot
Medea <---Cabd always defaults to a scumreadI dunno, it's partial sheeping Bro and partial BoP scumread after 295 for Peng and I'm not really able to call them town
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Whatever issues you have with us and Ghatokaca, do you seriously think there's a snowball's chance in hell that chamber soft-claimed an information role as scum? And I wouldn't highlight it now except that our attempts to bury his wholly unnecessary claim were pretty well stymied by bazinga earlier, making it moot. Which, um, well-done there.In post 1920, ToastyToast wrote:@Ghato: Katsuki/chamber slot and medea are obviously town to you?! wtf.
Seriously, I have no motivation for this day because its pretty clear to me what should be done. Stop overthinking things: BRO lynch formed at the last minute, effectively saving ghato from certain lynch. scum was definitely on the BRO wagon, with Mina beingleastsuspect given the time limit. Someone had to do it. Malakittens counterclaim (which was really a counter-soft-claim) was a easy, bullshit reason for the momentum switch to BRO, and doesn't make people "less scummy" for jumping on the wagon.
And your stance on Mina is utterly inconsistent. First she had no choice but to switch to BRO due to time, yet she was the only one who actually falls into your 'bullshit reason being the counterclaim for switching opinions' category if you actually read the posts in order. So which is it?
...because one never sees competing town wagons. Given how hard it was to push either lynch through, what's the functional difference between the two wagons for you?In post 1922, Hanzo_5 wrote:Are we really not lynching ghato? Do you honestly believe that there was a competing wagon between two town yesteday. Lets be real. Lets lynch the ghato slot.
Technically Nacho asked you what you'd done that was so obv-town. Playing to your own definition of self-meta isn't really an answer for how you've helped the town. I mean, according to you, you hammered the wrong player at deadline. If you actually feel badly about that, it's a pretty significant negative to overcome in your self-assessment.In post 1927, Mina wrote:Pay attention. NachoIn post 1924, bazinga wrote:mina what is with all your self-meta gibberishoutright asked mefor self-meta. I spoiled it because I figured no one else in the game cared
--PA
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Not sure I wouldn't prefer Osseus if Mina's not viable. I'll try to sync with Cabd soonish. Although ToastyToast might influence my Mina read. Hmph. Thing about Mina is that her posts do read as being invested in the game, but the emphasis doesn't line up in terms of leaving a definitive trail. Sorry for the uncertainty, hopefully I'll be more useful post-sync.In post 1962, Ghatokaca wrote:A lot of people have Toasty as a scumread but no wagon on him.
VOTE: ToastyToast
Best lynch for today. Medea, Mina, Kats, Ampersand, Malakittens: join us and make this happen.
~ F-16
I would like your answer to Ampersand's question about our neighborization of you though.
--PA
P-edit: bazinga, what was your intention in highlighting chamber's claim even when we, who stood to benefit most from it, were trying to downplay it? And I don't follow what you mean in response to Hanzo. He was caps-ing at me for questioning his theory, I think, so characterizing it as riding the coattails of the theory confuses me.
Why Ampersand over Osseus?
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Also, notscience, I realize that Cabd's more fun to read than me, but I've been accounting for a decent amount of the posting in this hydra. Does your read on our hydra account for me at all? You have two recently finished Micro games with me, one each of town and scum. You're not entirely reliant on figuring out Cabd here...
--PA
P-edit: bazinga, I'll pull up what I'm talking about in just a sec. And what's the dissonance source on Osseus?
--PA
P-edit: bazinga, I'll pull up what I'm talking about in just a sec. And what's the dissonance source on Osseus?
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This is what I was talking about, but seeing as I'm talking to a different head, hopefully this helps.In post 1873, bazinga wrote:I think my give a fuck is about broken
I am not quite sure what your point is here. yeah I read what you guys said but I still it incredulous that some1 would do that. cabd could do it 9 times and I would be incredulous each time.In post 1860, Malakittens wrote:Someone isn't reading then.
Cabd/Peng/I all have made comments about the game where Cabd/I neighborized Peng as scum and she was a mason and she had a super strong townread on us. You even asked about Cabd and I's hydra name too.
learn to read:Cabd/Peng neighborized Nacho & F-16 and considering Peng and I walled each other regarding that I don't fucking know how you thought it was Chamber whom got neighborized...
and I am the 1 accused of not reading the game? it looks like a soft claim. nacho picked up on it. I did not say that medeas neighborised chamber I said that chamber could verify the neighborising took place.In post 1807, bazinga wrote:In post 1802, Medea the Alien wrote:Are you actually reading the same game I am? Because holy shit you'd think you'd read the actual game and my posts. I sure as fuck am not in a neighborhood with chamberslot. I neighborized nachofalcon. I made that explicitly clear.In post 1799, bazinga wrote:but a neighborhood? jesus christ. chamber verified that they are in an actual neighborhood I guess more can be revealed when his replacement kicks in.In post 1745, chamber wrote:What would it take to make you seriously consider her today?In post 1741, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote: Bazinga frustrates me with how all over the place the slot is, but last I checked we agreed on some key reads (Ghat, Medea), and knowing Mollie if they were scum I expect them to put more effort into discrediting other player's and their reads. Their tendency to discredit other philosophies (re: Chamber ontownscumblocs) gives me pause, but that effort this game has been consistent and is more likely to be indicative of personal preference rather than alignment at this point. Town or scum, your philosophies will guide how you act.
How about me confirming that Medea almost surely did neighbourize Ghat (making the Ghat/Medea pair highly unlikely)?
--PA
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Yeah, you waffle so much that you don't stand behind any of your reads long-term. Obviously hammering BRO and immediately recanting stands out, and I'm not saying that one has to defend a mislynch ad nauseum, but you made a choice. I don't like the sense that you're not willing to stand by that choice. And maybe that's sanctimonious on my part, but it makes it really hard to think that you're scum hunting as opposed to taking stances that won't stick long enough to rile anyone.In post 1980, Mina wrote:Can you elaborate on this?In post 1967, Medea the Alien wrote:Not sure I wouldn't prefer Osseus if Mina's not viable. I'll try to sync with Cabd soonish. Although ToastyToast might influence my Mina read. Hmph.Thing about Mina is that her posts do read as being invested in the game, but the emphasis doesn't line up in terms of leaving a definitive trail.Sorry for the uncertainty, hopefully I'll be more useful post-sync.
Then there's the sense both me and Cabd have had today that you're happy to say there's one scum in {Ghatokaca, Medea the Alien} like you're setting up to lynch one of us today and the other tomorrow upon a town flip from the first.
Elsewhere, I'd like answers for these, please:
And since Bert apparently had no idea what I was talking about, I'd love to mollie to explain why she felt the need to highlight chamber's soft-claim.In post 1970, Medea the Alien wrote:Also, notscience, I realize that Cabd's more fun to read than me, but I've been accounting for a decent amount of the posting in this hydra. Does your read on our hydra account for me at all? You have two recently finished Micro games with me, one each of town and scum. You're not entirely reliant on figuring out Cabd here...
--PA
P-edit: bazinga, I'll pull up what I'm talking about in just a sec. And what's the dissonance source on Osseus?
Talked with Cabd; we're willing to give notscience some space with his ToastyToast read, and we're both fine with an Osseus lynch.
VOTE: Osseus
--PA
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^ that's L-1
Osseus, your entire case on Ghatokaca is not liking F-16's meta dives that aren't alignment a indicative and saying Nacho misrepresented something without citing said incident(s). Them not being lynched yesterday holds zero water. And your case on us is that we think they're town. What outside of our interactions with Ghatokaca comprise your scum case on us?
You say we're inextricably linked with Ghatokaca, but both hydra aren't scum, but you present both town-scum options as reasonable. Lots of noise, no content. Isn't it convenient that lynching us and Ghatokaca, assuming we're right about town-Ghatokaca, leaves us at likely LyLo?
--PA
Osseus, your entire case on Ghatokaca is not liking F-16's meta dives that aren't alignment a indicative and saying Nacho misrepresented something without citing said incident(s). Them not being lynched yesterday holds zero water. And your case on us is that we think they're town. What outside of our interactions with Ghatokaca comprise your scum case on us?
You say we're inextricably linked with Ghatokaca, but both hydra aren't scum, but you present both town-scum options as reasonable. Lots of noise, no content. Isn't it convenient that lynching us and Ghatokaca, assuming we're right about town-Ghatokaca, leaves us at likely LyLo?
--PA
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Really? This is a heck of a leap from 'Ghatokaca and Medea are both scum, lynch them with fire' as you were saying most of D2. And this:In post 2143, ToastyToast wrote:Well I think Medea is town, otherwise Osseus wouldn't have tried to throw them under the bus at the end there.
belies that entirely. And now:In post 2002, ToastyToast wrote:Currently believe Osseus(that vote on me was shit)-medea-ghatokaca are scum.
Now you want to be talked into believing we're scum again? Or is this how you go about persuading bazinga that we're town as per #2143? And what does Katsuki being dead have to do with Ampersand and Hanzo being scum reads?In post 2161, ToastyToast wrote:@bazinga: what about Osseus' attempt to get a flip to Medea at the last minute? Do you think that was just distancing?
I need to rethink a few of my reads, but with Katsuki dead I think ampersand and hanzo are suspect. Mina is still sort of my big town read.
notscience, so help me, get in here and talk to me about why ToastyToast is so very town to you. I'm still convinced that you're town, but ToastyToast having similar reads to you just isn't going to be enough to convince me he's town here. And I don't care if you can't read me or whatever you came up with yesterday; you don't have to read me to present a case to me.
How do you have Ampersand as scum? Seriously. Where's their motivation to get a buddy lynched, even a goon buddy, when there were at least two other viable options in us/Ghatokaca. And by your logic, for Osseus-Ampersand to be two of the three scum, there had to be one town option in us-Ghatokaca at a minimum.In post 2145, bazinga wrote:After talking throughout the night, we are more suspicious of Hanzo now, and less suspicious of Toasty.
We have notscience as pretty town. Mala as prob town. Mollie has Mina as super town, I have her as mebbe town although I have my nargles with Mina's switcheroos. We have ghato as a conflicted null with Nacho holding that slot up from a solid scumread, but Falcon still worries us. Still have Amper things as scum. Toasty we have as null-town, and hanzo we are continuing to discuss and will do so once Mollie comes back.
Medea we did not manage to discuss as she went on V/LA before we concluded. <3
Bert
You've both played with Mala plenty. Please explain how Mala is a weaker town read in aggregate than Mina. Also, explain how you didn't manage to discuss us, given that we've been closely linked with Ghatokaca all game. I find it incredibly hard to believe that you just didn't care about sorting us given mollie's near-perpetual paranoia about me, if I might be so egotistical as to make it all about me here.
Aside from notscience and Mala (the latter if i squint past your 'prob' qualifier), plus as per your recent correction Hanzo I guess, I think your reads are awful. And how do you not know where you are on us as per your follow-up posts? First you didn't talk about us, then we lean town, then Osseus could have been distancing? If I wasn't darn sure Cabd would be annoyed about it I'd vote you right now between that and the following:
During our neighborhood discussion last night, Nacho was quite determined that bazinga is town due to mollie's interactions with him. While I still have ToastyToast and Mina as my top scum reads, I'm not inclined to let bazinga off the hook for appeasing a Nacho who's basically around for two days in seven. I still hate their insistence on reairing chamber's PR claim yesterday, especially when mollie did it and Bert's response to my pointing it out was, 'oh, I'll make a note of that.' Then post-Osseus scum flip, this:
In post 1117, Medea the Alien wrote:A quick read through BRO's ISO in Sabotage shows that when he was under pressure D2, his reads and interactions were also superficial without much attempt to analyze deeply or work with people. His outrage was also nearly completely missing.
Regardless, Osseus is an acceptable compromise vote and is being annoying. Which at deadline is quite sufficient to garner my vote.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Osseus
--PA
Looks awful. Here I am trying to engage mollie's supposed town read on BRO and indicate a willingness to consider that my lynch preference might not be good for the day and move to Osseus. Immediately she wants BRO's wagon resurrected? After all the time she spent complaining that no one addressed her BRO read? Why appeal to me to vote her town read, especially when she later said that she thought my #1117 was me agreeing with her that BRO played differently in Sabotage Mafia when he was scum:In post 1119, bazinga wrote:penny, let's both vote bro and resuscitate the bro wagon
VOTE: Broseidon
--PAIn post 1614, bazinga wrote:In post 1613, pirate mollie wrote:this is what you said:As I said, I'm not a meta-diver myself (my use of meta comes more from actual play experience, as I don't get as engaged when reading games versus playing in them) but I did have a go at looking over Sabotage as you saw in 1116. You commented on having vaguely followed NY 165 for having enjoyed finding the SK, but you didn't comment on my take on Sabotage, nor did you comment on what BRO actually did in NY 165.
I didn't comment on it cos you kind of stated why he might be town in this game I mean those were the reasons I was kind of thinking he might be town, for the exact reasons you stated.In post 1117, Medea the Alien wrote:A quick read through BRO's ISO in Sabotage shows that when he was under pressure D2, his reads and interactions were also superficial without much attempt to analyze deeply or work with people. His outrage was also nearly completely missing.
Regardless, Osseus is an acceptable compromise vote and is being annoying. Which at deadline is quite sufficient to garner my vote.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Osseus
--PA
whoops
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Don't care if you didn't get to finish discussing reads; I don't like your inconsistency in remembering where you left things with us given how much time y'all spent calling us scum yesterday.
Mala is either playing an out of her mind excellent scum game or she's town. Mala-scum-gladiator doesn't counterclaim a town player who's getting run up anyways. Mala-scum doesn't jump into a game with a playerlist like this (in terms of people who know her) with so little apprehension unless she has a scum team supporting her with whom she's exceptionally comfortable. (I...don't think T-Bone and Untrod Tripod fit the bill, and I don't think there's a third potential scum who would offset that) Mala-scum tries to blend in. Tunneling Hanzo without support doesn't qualify as blending in.
Your read on Ghatokaca matters not a whit to me, and I don't know why you're reiterating it.
I am quite interested in your kickass ToastyToast town read. And I'm interested in hearing about your doubts about Mina.
--PA
P-edit: You can kick and scream about ToastyToast being town all you'd like; I want a current case. And if I can't get it from you, I'll get it from someone else. Because for me, with notscience-Mala-Ghatokaca-us-Ampersand town, we're getting into the territory of being able to PoE this game into the ground. And sure, Ampersand-wise, bussing happens. Bussing a partner out of nowhere while holding stances on two viable wagons that let you avoid burning a teammate, not so likely.
Waffling, yes. First claiming not to have discussed someone you spent a lot of time getting reactions out of and scum reading, followed by having come up with a town lean, that's not waffling. That's equivocating.
Mala is either playing an out of her mind excellent scum game or she's town. Mala-scum-gladiator doesn't counterclaim a town player who's getting run up anyways. Mala-scum doesn't jump into a game with a playerlist like this (in terms of people who know her) with so little apprehension unless she has a scum team supporting her with whom she's exceptionally comfortable. (I...don't think T-Bone and Untrod Tripod fit the bill, and I don't think there's a third potential scum who would offset that) Mala-scum tries to blend in. Tunneling Hanzo without support doesn't qualify as blending in.
Your read on Ghatokaca matters not a whit to me, and I don't know why you're reiterating it.
I am quite interested in your kickass ToastyToast town read. And I'm interested in hearing about your doubts about Mina.
--PA
P-edit: You can kick and scream about ToastyToast being town all you'd like; I want a current case. And if I can't get it from you, I'll get it from someone else. Because for me, with notscience-Mala-Ghatokaca-us-Ampersand town, we're getting into the territory of being able to PoE this game into the ground. And sure, Ampersand-wise, bussing happens. Bussing a partner out of nowhere while holding stances on two viable wagons that let you avoid burning a teammate, not so likely.
Waffling, yes. First claiming not to have discussed someone you spent a lot of time getting reactions out of and scum reading, followed by having come up with a town lean, that's not waffling. That's equivocating.
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I don't care if you're suspicious of me. I think you're scummy anyways for everything I said that you didn't address (possibly because I'm talking to the wrong head, but I don't know how your hydra functions enough to say for sure) and I actually don't like the claimed result with one vote on TT. We're < 3 hours into the day; do you really think that cutting off an avenue of inquiry is necessary/good at this point?In post 2172, bazinga wrote:do you really think we would go from having toasty as a *scumread at the end of yesterday, to hard whiteknighting toasty now???? like seriously that makes me suspicious of you
--PA
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...which makes my knowledge of your hydra functioning inaccurate. And my point was that I was giving you an out for not having addressed any of my points about mollie's shady activity the last two game days. Seeing as your reaction to my calling your hydra out on highlighting chamber-Katsuki's PR claim, was to say something like, 'interesting, didn't know that, I'll make a note of it' it would seem that you don't feel comfortable fielding questions for mollie.
So what's your point?
--PA
So what's your point?
--PA
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So you took note of it--problem is, that doesn't explain away the scummy play. It's utterly neutral. And you can give me your own take on Ampersand--if you don't want to explain/argue mollie's stance that's fine, but why worry about holding the fort? Just tell me what you're thinking.In post 2178, bazinga wrote:my point is that i still dont understand why you think mollie is scum, other than for not fielding questions that you asked days ago, because she hasn't been here? she has spotty activity right now because internet connection reasons for the time being
and if i said ill make note of it, it means i did make note of it. i dont feel comfortable fielding questions for mollie because (1) she is the dominant voice of this hydra, (2) she is stronger and building cases, and (3) i really dont know how to answer some of those questions in a satisfactory way that would hold the fort well
like "why is ampersand scum" is not something im going to build a case for - against Ampers? doubtful. i sit on the sidelines, but i kinda have to post since im the only one active right now.
Yes, I do get off to slow starts. Trouble is, this game is probably one of the single most active early games I've had on this site ever. It may not be a melee of posting relative to some players, but I really don't think you can say that this is my typical lurky early play.In post 2179, bazinga wrote:do you think mollie would ignore your questions if she were here? because we're the ones usually complaining about "we're worried about penguin, we need to figure her out, reach out, see what happens"
like in that organic chem, we were worried about you because you werent giving us lots of town vibes, and we gave you until D2 and said we'd sort you later
same thing here in an odd way, since u get off to slow starts
mollie did spend a lot of time interacting with me here. And what I've gotten from that wasn't super-encouraging. Too late at night to quote strip, but I tried to reach out to mollie on discussing BRO, no effective result. There were other things, and for my trouble on Day Two, mollie said that I must be trying to manipulate her because I didn't listen to her read in X-Men enough for her liking despite attempting to vig-shoot the player whom she said she called out as scum.
And maybe mollie wouldn't ignore my questions, but that does nothing to get them answered now, and I'm not changing my opinion on the basis of maybe having my questions addressed in the future.
Why town read us over Ghatokaca? And where was that logic when Osseus was calling for both our heads yesterday and you had the three of us as a likely scum team? It's a switch, and as such I think it's worth questioning.In post 2180, ToastyToast wrote:@Medea: I highly doubt Osseus would try to distance himself from BOTH his scumbuddies, and make them his two biggest scum reads. So I don't know why you think this is such a rapid switch.
Because seeing who jumps where is useful? We have 14 days, and if I were bazinga with a town result on someone being wagoned, I'd want to see who all tried to get that person lynched and for what reasons. And if I knew someone was town off a night action, I'd try my hand at assembling a defense case before squandering a PR.In post 2181, ToastyToast wrote:If bazinga has information that I'm town, and there are people building momentum against me, whyIn post 2174, Medea the Alien wrote:I don't care if you're suspicious of me. I think you're scummy anyways for everything I said that you didn't address (possibly because I'm talking to the wrong head, but I don't know how your hydra functions enough to say for sure) and I actually don't like the claimed result with one vote on TT. We're < 3 hours into the day; do you really think that cutting off an avenue of inquiry is necessary/good at this point?In post 2172, bazinga wrote:do you really think we would go from having toasty as a *scumread at the end of yesterday, to hard whiteknighting toasty now???? like seriously that makes me suspicious of you
--PAwouldn'tit be a good idea to reveal that?
--PA
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Who's they? bazinga? As far as I'm concerned I'm giving them space to explain and defend their reads. I'm just also suspicious of them for the reasons explained in my first giant post of today. But I don't personally think I've cut off opportunities for a dialogue--I didn't even put down a vote.
OK. And as for Ampersand?In post 2191, bazinga wrote:I'd be voting mina in a jiffy cos gut, but since a hydra is a team, that is never going to happen.In post 2182, Medea the Alien wrote:And you can give me your own take on Ampersand--if you don't want to explain/argue mollie's stance that's fine, but why worry about holding the fort? Just tell me what you're thinking.
Mina, what are your reads right now?
--PA
P-edit: bazinga, while I appreciate your concern for my potentially wasting my time, I'm hardly worried about it. Did you read why I'm not convinced you're town? Because oddly enough the more you tell me that you're not the droids I'm looking for, the less inclined I am to go away. Jedi fail...
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Who's they? Because I have no idea what you're saying.In post 2194, notscience wrote:The more they post
the more I feel like they're town
and the more I get worried about molliebert
:s
--PA
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I. Read. The. Sabotage. Game. FFS. I think it got eaten too, but you also asked why I thought I had more experience with BRO than you, and I cited our three hydra games, several off site large games, and something like a dozen games here in all alignment combinations. For you to say that one Micro game outweighs all my experience with scum and town BRO is absurd. And yet I read it. Your spiel about how I won't work with you, but when I do try to work with you I must be trying to manipulate you, is really tiresome.
Bert jumping the gun doesn't explain why you didn't come back to that if you actually thought I was town reading BRO at that point. Heaven knows you waffled enough that there was time to question stuff on the day of.
And I want a better explanation for why Ampersand is scum and why you ignored my question about what caused the dissonance over Osseus for so long yesterday. Plus why Mala is less town than Mina and why Bert seemed confused over whether you discussed us last night.
--PA
Bert jumping the gun doesn't explain why you didn't come back to that if you actually thought I was town reading BRO at that point. Heaven knows you waffled enough that there was time to question stuff on the day of.
And I want a better explanation for why Ampersand is scum and why you ignored my question about what caused the dissonance over Osseus for so long yesterday. Plus why Mala is less town than Mina and why Bert seemed confused over whether you discussed us last night.
--PA
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Post 69 in our neighborhood. Extrapolate from there.In post 2254, Ghatokaca wrote:Not going to lynch Bazinga for the fake-claim but I still have suspicions of Toasty.
~ F-16
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Fucking lol. You're not seriously that daft are you?In post 2261, Ampersand wrote:P.S. we have *secret* reasons to suspect a notscience-Medea scum team.
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Because yes, when I draw scum I set out to get night info from my scumbud night 1, neighborize one of my most vocal critics after busing the holy shining fuck out of my scum partner, and then proceed to rant at said vocal critic about my great theory for how toasty can be town.
You've got me.
At least fenchurch's posting made sense.
You've got me.
At least fenchurch's posting made sense.
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...so we're apparently full-claiming our role /in before everyone starts asking what the hell this is aboutIn post 2263, Medea the Alien wrote:Because yes, when I draw scum I set out to get night info from my scumbud night 1, neighborize one of my most vocal critics after busing the holy shining fuck out of my scum partner, and then proceed to rant at said vocal critic about my great theory for how toasty can be town.
You've got me.
At least fenchurch's posting made sense.
Yeah, we're an unlimited shot neighborizer where all the neighbors share a single QT. We opted to add Ampersand in last night on the basis of a) Mala was sick and unlikely to talk much, b) there was doubt about how well bazinga would work with existing neighbors (sorry, but it'll be there to read in the post-game), and c) no way in hell did Ampersand bypass the chance to lynch us or Ghatokaca to bus a partner unless Ghatokaca is, contrary to our read, a super-awesome scum PR.
With the cat out of the bag, I'll say that whatever posturing CES is doing aside (which is pretty much exactly the posturing he said he'd be doing during our neighborhood talk) I'm very sure Ampersand is town. Leading the Osseus lynch aside, Fenchurch's comments plus some things CES was doing make me positive they're town.
Here's where I stand. Mala, Ampersand, notscience, ToastyToast, Ghatokaca town in no particular order. bazinga: town with whom I'm having major communication issues. Scum: Mina, Hanzo.
I have to head out right now, but I'll be around later to elaborate on those reads.
--PA
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Did I say that we were the ones who put the kibosh on adding you?In post 2267, bazinga wrote:@ medeas
so lemme get this straight...you didn't neighborise us cos of *communication issues with the neighbors* but think we are town but you neighborised amper people who has been slobbering over your lynch since d1?
in what world does this make sense
We thought about it. Ultimately decided two heads were better than one, and F-16 liked the idea of pulling in CES as a good scum hunter and Cabd thought Fenchurch would be helpful.In post 2268, bazinga wrote:like why not notty
Fenchurch, go for it. You were in favor of revealing your addition to the neighborhood during our discussions overnight, so I assume you still want to discuss what you witnessed/participated in.
--PA
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It was me actually mostly, because I'm tired of dealing with your paranoid bullshit you do on me AAAAAND now that vengeball is over I can say it freely.
I offered nacho a choice of Bazinga, notsci, or sell me on somehting else. F16 really wanted ampersand and I was pretty okay with it, he said notsci was his second choice. Nacho approved of the Ampersand angle, so I bold-summoned them in the neighborhood, and in post 63 of the QT, tammy confirms their addition.
I offered nacho a choice of Bazinga, notsci, or sell me on somehting else. F16 really wanted ampersand and I was pretty okay with it, he said notsci was his second choice. Nacho approved of the Ampersand angle, so I bold-summoned them in the neighborhood, and in post 63 of the QT, tammy confirms their addition.
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He started to talk to me on skype and I had to stop him and send him through the quicktopic. It's a holdover from when we were allowed to use skype for neighborhoods/our scum topic in New York 167.In post 2273, Ampersand wrote:On that note, now that the neighborhood has been revealed, Medea, I have to ask - what's with the Nacho mention in #61 of the neighborhorhood?
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Tammy was already told, no thor face needed.In post 2277, bazinga wrote:In post 2275, Medea the Alien wrote:He started to talk to me on skype and I had to stop him and send him through the quicktopic. It's a holdover from when we were allowed to use skype for neighborhoods/our scum topic in New York 167.In post 2273, Ampersand wrote:On that note, now that the neighborhood has been revealed, Medea, I have to ask - what's with the Nacho mention in #61 of the neighborhorhood?
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The only secret reason I can think of that you might profess is "medea and notsci are scumbuds because toasty did that one thing to notsci night one and cabd knew about it night two in the hood"In post 2266, Ampersand wrote:Are you assuming different secret reasons than my actual secret reasons?
Any other "secret" reason you "have" is made up bullshit and if you want to 1v1 this shit then say so.
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Ampersand, might I point out /m53? I was actually the first one to bring you two up for consideration as a neighborization target. (I forgot about this when making post #2269, but you can go back and look at the neighborhood QT obviously.)In post 2266, Ampersand wrote:Once the decision gets framed as notscience vs. us, you kind of have to, especially if notscience is your scum buddy.In post 2263, Medea the Alien wrote:neighborize one of my most vocal critics
Cabd replied that he figured CES would be ornery but that Fenchurch would be helpful, then F-16 said he liked the idea of scum hunting with CES. I can't prove that every post in the neighborhood wasn't scum theater, what with the lack of being able to prove a negative, but I'd ask you to step back and consider some points. While being aware that there's a whole lot of WIFOM going on.
1) We didn't have to neighborize you by any means. I could have come up with plenty of arguments for neighborizing Mala despite her likely absence, for neighborizing notscience (no-brainer), even for insisting on neighborizing bazinga. Heck, we could have neighborized Katsuki in the guise of preserving any PR-related info he had. My powers of duplicity probably end at sincerely suggesting neighborizing TT/Hanzo/Mina based on reads and in-thread interactions, but.
2) You say that I was delving into set-up and flavor spec. Two reasons that kicked off: a) scum flip = information, and considering how the Osseus wagon ended in conjunction with our reads, considering likely set-up issues becomes relevant, and b) notscience was quite adamant on town-TT. Beyond what made sense to me. Figuring out where *secret theory* fit in mattered in terms of considering where scum was likely to be. And as a bonus, c) themes and flavor are fun. Yeah, I'm going to consider who's left as unknowns. If we can spare posts for birthday wishes, I think I'm allowed to wander off into character inclusion speculation for a post or two.
3) Your point about me and Cabd not discussing gut reads and such as much as Ghatokaca is accurate. I will point out that a lot of their back-and-forth is with each other and frankly reads to me like them having their hydra conversations in the neighborhood QT, which wouldn't surprise me given Nacho's limited availability. I think we were pretty clear about our reads, but what I personally want to get out of that kind of set-up is bouncing ideas off other people. I can list reads in the thread, but when I'm pretty sure I have two other town slots at my disposal, I'm interested in getting their perspectives on specific issues/events/ambiguities. As I said in /m48, our plan for the neighborhood wasn't to scumhunt in terms of dragging people in to undergo interrogation, but rather to get a space going where town could communicate.
By my calculations, if our suspicions are correct, two-thirds of the town is in the know about the secret reason. As you left the choice up to us to reveal the multi-shot nature of the neighborhood, I'll leave it up to you whether you want to just get this out in the open or not, although I'll say that it's quite annoying trying to defend against an unspoken argument in a public thread. Cabd came up with the theory, and I agreed for reasons that I did explain in /m122, although perhaps not clearly given CES's response. I'll explain here if you decide to divulge the theory fully.In post 2261, Ampersand wrote:P.S. we have *secret* reasons to suspect a notscience-Medea scum team.
Re: 2290, 1) my comment on the Zdenek kill. You addressed the question to Cabd. I really didn't have to say a darn thing. But frankly I assume that you and CES barely know my play, if you do at all beyond I think CES in /in-vitational 12, and probably anecdotally aren't inclined to. I figured commenting on how my answer would differ from Cabd's might be useful for you.
2) In terms of Cabd talking about being a town neighborizer, I assume you mean /m6, as that's the only place I find such a reference. And that's the opening of the neighborhood in which the irony of us being a town neighborizer in the wake of Cabd being a scum neighborizer/the events of Mini 1531 is being referenced. If you want me to go into explaining any further I will, given that I pretty much agreed to take whatever fallout came my way from my choices that game.
3) We've been talking about this game a lot from the start. Can't quote hydra convos, but the reads list in question wasn't just a matter of us sitting down and evaluating the player list from scratch. And we continued to talk while making the reads list. I can say that I've played in hydras with a few approaches to communication, and that the real-time aspect of chat makes hashing things out far easier than QT communication. Again, can't prove a negative here.
4) I really don't know what to say here. We had a firm read, nothing's changed. Yeah, some of it's self-centered on my part, but I don't see it changing either. But I've played a decent number of games with Nacho and a few with F-16, and improbably early as it was, I've been sold on them as town
5) Do consider the source. Did you really expect Cabd to be all introspective about it?
6) We wanted Mina lynched. My reads list here is what I was thinking at the start of the day, and I ended up spending a lot of the day phase arguing about other things. I was also hard-scum reading ToastyToast and seeing reasons to assume a Mina-ToastyToast link (some of which was lost to the dropped posts and only partially recreated IIRC), and given the atmosphere in the thread, hardly anyone was interested in considering Mina's behavior as anything but town. So yeah, we went with the easy Osseus lynch. In the wake of that, I still want Mina lynched, but I'm rapidly losing faith in our ability to string up scum before going through the motions of mislynching again.
7) Yeah, Cabd overstated our involvement in the lynch, I'll give you that one.
:rolls eyes: Might I refer you to /m146-153, second verse, same as the first? I'll say that as long as I have the password to this hydra we're not 1v1ing you. Not least because you (CES-head mostly) made some moves in the neighborhood that sold me on your being town quite firmly. And if I'm not hallucinating things, I suspect that that's as much as you'd want me to say on that topic in the game thread.In post 2297, Ampersand wrote:Just remembered - this seems a weird thing for you to suggest when your slot is reading us as town.In post 2280, Medea the Alien wrote:Any other "secret" reason you "have" is made up bullshit and if you want to 1v1 this shit then say so.
- Fenchurch
I'd like to move on to finding the actual scum here, but a lot of where I go in-thread depends on your thoughts on expanding on the *secret reason*
--PA
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This is an interesting question and remind me to comment upon it once she answers.In post 2305, Mina wrote:Penguin, what have you done in this game that you couldn't have done as scum?
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I'm not penguin, but rumor has it her and I are joined at the proverbial role-PM hip. Have at ye.In post 2302, Malakittens wrote:I kinda wanna talk to Peng or someone about the above.
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Well thing is, we thought toasty was confotown for ~reasons~ but now not so much becuase bazinga seems to not have those same reasons.In post 2309, Malakittens wrote:How likely do you think Mina/Hanzo as a remaining scum team? I'm possibly considering Toasty as a third if one of those are wrong. I'm not sure why, but I haven't liked Toasty and I think someone pushing the\\09Ghat wagon could easily be scum. I also find it highly unlikely though that both scum would push Ghat and Ossy wasn't one of those 1,2&3 things because before Ossy there was your wagon which wasn't really going anywhere.In post 2308, Medea the Alien wrote:I'm not penguin, but rumor has it her and I are joined at the proverbial role-PM hip. Have at ye.In post 2302, Malakittens wrote:I kinda wanna talk to Peng or someone about the above.
Hanzo being scum is something I've been constantly coming back to from my POE pool, and I think a lot of the townreads on him are essentially for stylistic reasons and for for townplay reasons. Mina makes sense as scum, yes.
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You'll have to forgive me not bieng willing to take this at pure face value. I know you consiter your townreads to be a masonry but i'm not that willing.In post 2313, notscience wrote:because his role pm reads town and he's too prickly to be scumIn post 2288, bazinga wrote:notty why is toasty town again
sorry forgot to reply to this one
Can you at least try to explain to me why he's town? Because the reason I had before went up in a plume of bert-smoke.
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LALALALALA! Haven't watched Grey's Anatomy yet! I'll take it as a good sign that you only wanted to throw a sock at the TV and not a shoe. But I did see OUAT! The casting department is trying to kill me, I swear.In post 2302, Malakittens wrote:So my head last night said it had a theory about Mina/Hanzo scum team. Then as I thought about it more I thought it was my meds talking instead of logic, but as I keep going back to this thread I'm kinda wondering the actual likely hood of it, tbh. Some stuff that I was thinking in terms of Mina interactions with Hanzo can also be applied to Bazinga because they were also at the time town reading hanzo for the same things which I disagreed with.
Also, I hate these meds. They make me so sleepy and I fell asleep while watching a show ._. Two days in a row! Also I wanted to throw a sock at TV during my 9-10 time slot until like 5 mins before the ending. Then it was just 'awwww'.
So yeah that's where my head currently stands. I kinda wanna talk to Peng or someone about the above.
Ahem. Any Hanzo-Mina/bazinga team involves a giant chainsaw. Which given the emotional play styles of bazinga and Mina isn't implausible, but does seem like overkill for the way the game state was at the start of D2. And then I consider that Osseus was unlikely to ride to Hanzo's defense if they were scum together and that remains an outside possibility.
If notscience is right about TT-town, taking Hanzo out of the equation pretty much leaves bazinga and Mina for me. In which case there's been a lot of mutual reinforcement, plus I'm not sure why they wouldn't take the easy way out and lynch Ghatokaca yesterday.
My turn to self-meta? From an interior perspective, not much. I don't tend to start conflict as scum, but then I'm normally way more reticent as town or scum than I have been here. Mostly because I'm in a hydra where I'm being told to go post what I'm thinking instead of stewing over it. As far as NY 164, I did have another scum team to hunt, given that by Night Two my team was me and a walking dead man role-wise, which changed priorities. Not sure if you mean Micro 295 for the other one. Sometimes I tunnel more as scum, and usually, but not always, I keep my emotions out of things more as scum. But, while I might be overselling myself, I tend to think that between being in a hydra and being familiar with some of the players here, I might have been able to do a fair bit of what I've done as scum. Except neighborize F-16--Nacho. No way would I voluntarily give them a chance to grill me in a small setting. There's bravado and then there's sticking one's hand in a garbage disposal.In post 2305, Mina wrote:Penguin, what have you done in this game that you couldn't have done as scum?
--PA
P-edit: CES, if you want me to address something in particular, let me know. I'm really not trying to be vague here beyond not discussing the TT theory if y'all don't want it in the thread.
notscience, the pink, it kills. I'll look at that later.
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I'm in no particular rush. Throwing down with a slight migraine at present, so it'll take me some time to work through what you've posted anyways. And I'm coming back to thinking our theory was partially right, which makes TT less of a priority.
TT, just wanted to note that some of what Ampersand is talking about is based on neighborhood content in terms of me speculating on setup and flavor.
--PA
TT, just wanted to note that some of what Ampersand is talking about is based on neighborhood content in terms of me speculating on setup and flavor.
--PA
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Soft touch maybe is more accurate? The way you and bazinga rushed to reassure Hanzo that just because the awful scummy penguin was pressuring him didn't mean he should replace out was rather OTT given that I was the only one voting him and even my other head thought I was insane. The attitude towards having to make decisions at deadline adds to this perception.In post 2329, Mina wrote:I'm not that emotional.In post 2318, Medea the Alien wrote:Which given the emotional play styles of bazinga and Mina isn't implausibleExcept when there's a deadline or people call me scum.I started out this game trying to be all analytical, too.
Nice to know we're not off our nut there. (I'll address the first part of this block quote in the next part) I said I'd let Ampersand decide how to proceed with divulging/not divulging that part of our neighborhood conversations, although my initial calculations have 5-6/9 of the town in the know if it's accurate, so it does feel a bit silly and grade schoolish to treat it like a state secret.Hmm. I'm kind of surprised you don't have more than this (although the Nacho point is compelling). You mentioned the tunneling thing and the keeping your emotions out of the game--why, have you been different at all this game?In post 2318, Medea the Alien wrote:My turn to self-meta? From an interior perspective, not much. I don't tend to start conflict as scum, but then I'm normally way more reticent as town or scum than I have been here. Mostly because I'm in a hydra where I'm being told to go post what I'm thinking instead of stewing over it. As far as NY 164, I did have another scum team to hunt, given that by Night Two my team was me and a walking dead man role-wise, which changed priorities. Not sure if you mean Micro 295 for the other one. Sometimes I tunnel more as scum, and usually, but not always, I keep my emotions out of things more as scum. But, while I might be overselling myself, I tend to think that between being in a hydra and being familiar with some of the players here, I might have been able to do a fair bit of what I've done as scum. Except neighborize F-16--Nacho. No way would I voluntarily give them a chance to grill me in a small setting. There's bravado and then there's sticking one's hand in a garbage disposal.
By the way, I figured out the notscience theory just from all the wink-wink, nudge-nudges (and don't think it's completely implausible someone would speculate on it without evidence), so I'd better not be the one everyone is trying to hide it from.
Emotion-wise, I've been snippy/bitchy/YMMV in general lately, but scum-me probably would have been more conciliatory to bazinga. Tunnel-wise, I've had some pretty immutable town reads, but my scum reads have been less focused. Assuming I wasn't scum with him, scum-me would have tried to ride Hanzo into the grave yesterday--he'd have been perfect for not being taken seriously while not a significant suspect by anyone hugely active at present. Hope town mislynches elsewhere, have convenient excuse for not being on the day's lynch either way.In post 2332, Mina wrote:Blah, I misspoke. I blame alcohol. I mean, penguin, do you actually think you've been more emotional/less tunnelly? I'm not sure you've been noticeably either quality (as in, you haven't been all that emotional, although you seem engaged at points, and your slot's reads have been fairly consistent throughout the game).
(If your only point is that I'm more likely to be scum with Hanzothan bazinga is, then fair enough.)
Aside from Nacho I think Cabd's probably got the best handle on my scum game, and a) his feedback's obviously suspect here, and b) I don't know how much he'd want to divulge about his tells on me. FWIW, Mala almost always reads me as scum regardless of my alignment and she isn't doing that here (yet) (Mala, saw the episode, am now firmly convinced everyone should get one free gurney hit post-being-dumped. Also, elevator of AWKWARD strikes again.)
Mina, where do you think scum is right now? Does that change if I tell you that I'm utterly sold on Ampersand-town?
Yeah, I laughed. Reading your wall cases next if I don't conk out.In post 2331, notscience wrote:Also I am for having the replaced slot at L-1 on replace in so they squeal
--PA
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I'm saying that if I was scum and he was town under some versions of my scum play I'd have death-tunneled him while hoping the lynch went elsewhere.In post 2335, ToastyToast wrote:@Medea: Are you saying you would try to have lynched Hanzo yesterday if you were scum? (just clarifying). It seems kind of random. What do you think about Hanzo almost completely disappearing yesterday after being proactive day 1? I wish we knew why he was gone, because that was my biggest problem with him and now he's being replaced.
Hanzo flaked site-wide as far as I tell, so I don't think him disappearing is alignment-indicative.
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Translation, please?In post 2349, notscience wrote:Same deal with 3dice
WHO WAS STUPIDLY FUCKING TOWN AND SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN THE LYLO ML
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Yet there hasn't been a major wagon on ToastyToast. I get that no one's defending him really aside from you, but your defense is pretty much that he's in sympathy with you. Which reminds me a lot of the bazinga-Mina reinforcement, and I don't feel like it makes them both town either.In post 2353, notscience wrote:Nacho lead a wagon on a townie D1 of newbie 1462
but they NL'd
I came in D2 and started screaming bloody murder about how obviously town the wagonee was
Nacho doesn't change his read until D3 and it's in a slimy underhand way that I should have recognized but lolnope
I die N3 because NL and then we end up having replacements lynch 3dice (it wasn't even a scum quickhammer, scum was the first vote and nacho never voted him)
And I'm still mad at them lynching him
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Oh for fuck's sake. Toast are you or are you not friendly neighbor? It's all in the threrad anyways, so confirm or deny it, and let's fucking move on. Ampersand thinks notscience and I are scum together because I (apparently correctly) guessed that toasty might be friendly neighbor and therefore "OMG scumcabd rolecopped toasty or had his scumbud notscience tell him and slipped it in the neighborhood"
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A) It was not bad meta on BRO. And I did a hell of a lot more to try to understand your meta example than you did mine. There's no reason why being wrong on BRO invalidates any of my other reads.In post 2381, bazinga wrote:it is body of work when I look at the angles and the nature of their pushes. there was the bad meta read on bro that they dodged all over the place and instead of going through a reevaluation process when bro flipped town they instead used the same meta to try to push a minascum case. go back and look at mina's posting in anything goes (and yes mina did make some posts) and tell me that there is any semblance to that game and this cos I am telling that the answer is no.In post 2368, Malakittens wrote:@Mollie:
Medea isn't the only one pushing the Hanzo-scum theory. I'm pushing it a lot more than them. So you say Medea is scum with Ghatty exactly why? Just the way they are pushing people or is it something else?
Iamtaking into account that mina is going solo may impact the nature of her posts but I am thinking not that dramatically? I asked for a link where she has done this and all I got was a paragraph from nacho about mina scum meta not mina scum in relation to this game.
which brings me to another point. check out the languaging in this excerpt:
she has been doing this ever since I first gave my reasons for town mina read. she is focusing on tearing down that read but has switched to a "I don't think it makes them both town". this looks more like an attempt to divide and conquer not an attempt toWhich reminds me a lot of the bazinga-Mina reinforcement, andI don't feel like it makes them both town either.understandthe reasoning behind it and penny is no newb she knows how town herd mentality works.
all of the self-meta, "I would do this as scum" or "I wouldn't do this as scum" has reached the point of nausea ad infinitum it is just overkill at this point.
okayAlso I can kinda see the point Ghatty and Ossy crossbussing, but I'm not sure if I can buy it 100% because of the way Ossy would have had to cross buss hard two days in a row.
B) Try reading the quote you bolded in context. And there's no good reason for you to encourage Mina's waffling.
C) I was asked for self-meta. Read it or don't, your choice, but either way, find actual arguments; anything is better than 'she answered a question she was asked' here.
--PA
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My original point, when we thought TT might not be a friendly neighbor and I couldn't understand notscience's read, was that agreeing with a player's reads/liking their style (as notscience said about TT being hostile to the Medea reads wall) was that I don't find such overlap indicative of town having found town at all times. It reminded me of how you and bazinga seemed to interact at the end of Days One and Two, and the whole running Waffles jokes. By making such indecisiveness the subject of fun and games, it creates a bond over what I consider to be anti-town behavior.In post 2387, Mina wrote:Uh...maybe I'm missing the context, but where is she doing that?
The point's currently tabled to my way of thinking, as post-convo with Cabd, we're pretty sure that the whole behavior around the TT info wasn't anything scum-Bert would do, and we're kind of staggered at the degree to which you've posted things that make us think you're town today.
Town then becomes us, Mina, bazinga, TT, notscience (I don't see scum-notscience handling being Friendly Neighbored by TT that way), and Mala because I'm still convinced on that one. So scum within {Ghatokaca, Ampersand, Hanzo}.
Ampersand
, you say that you think we're scum with notscience for the Friendly Neighbor theory. And that we were forced to bypass the chance to neighborize notscience instead of you. Yet you haven't acknowledged the accuracy of my point that I (penguin_alien) was the one who first suggested neighborizing you. Not pushed into it. Not because anyone objected to notscience. My freely generated idea. For the general edification of the game thread, true or false?Mina
, take a look at NY 164 to see a set-up with a Friendly Neighborizer and neighborhoods. Differently executed neighborhoods, but similar idea. It sticks out because my scum buddy CTD was in a neighborhood with Slandaar and freaked out when a Friendly Neighbor flipped. ToastyToast's insistence that we were lying (which we're demonstrably not, given the current size of our neighborhood) stuck out. Cabd's theory made it make sense.And functionally, Friendly Neighbor and Neighborizer aren't the same thing. Friendly Neighbor's like a reverse Cop, while Neighborizer is a role about communication.
--PA
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Ampersand: ??? (Added to hood night two)
Bazinga: Claimed VT (Not in hood)
Ghatokaca Claimed VT (Added to hood night one)
hanzo_5: ??? (Not in Hood)
malakittens: Claimed GLadiator (not in Hood)
Medea the Alien: Neighborizer Unlimited (Started hood N1)
Mina: ??? (Not in hood)
notscience: ??? (not in hood)
ToastyToast: Friendly Neighbor (Not in hood)
Bazinga: Claimed VT (Not in hood)
Ghatokaca Claimed VT (Added to hood night one)
hanzo_5: ??? (Not in Hood)
malakittens: Claimed GLadiator (not in Hood)
Medea the Alien: Neighborizer Unlimited (Started hood N1)
Mina: ??? (Not in hood)
notscience: ??? (not in hood)
ToastyToast: Friendly Neighbor (Not in hood)
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Yet TT got a shot off to bazinga apparently. So why does notscience-scum let that happen?
Ampersand's case on us where I respond to it and they go 'well, don't think the response is good enough for *reasons*' makes me all sorts of leery. Heck, you have QT access; you can confirm how the decision to add Ampersand to the neighborhood went down. And the context of the 'town neighborizer' comment. Which would be appreciated.
So why are you still voting TT, by the way?
--PA
Ampersand's case on us where I respond to it and they go 'well, don't think the response is good enough for *reasons*' makes me all sorts of leery. Heck, you have QT access; you can confirm how the decision to add Ampersand to the neighborhood went down. And the context of the 'town neighborizer' comment. Which would be appreciated.
So why are you still voting TT, by the way?
--PA
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Why does scum-notscience let TT get another neighborizer shot off?In post 2399, Ghatokaca wrote:I am not following. What do you mean notscience-scum "letting it happen?"In post 2397, Medea the Alien wrote:Yet TT got a shot off to bazinga apparently. So why does notscience-scum let that happen?
Ampersand's case on us where I respond to it and they go 'well, don't think the response is good enough for *reasons*' makes me all sorts of leery. Heck, you have QT access; you can confirm how the decision to add Ampersand to the neighborhood went down. And the context of the 'town neighborizer' comment. Which would be appreciated.
So why are you still voting TT, by the way?
--PA
As for how we ended up adding Ampersand, you wondered whether you could see yourself working with Bazinga, but preferred NotScience since he was less likely to be paranoid. You also said that you had a stronger townread on Ampersand N2 and asked if they were a neighborization option but implied that 6 people may be the limit to what you'd prefer. Cabd said that CES would spend a lot of time suspecting you but that Fenchurch would be helpful and enjoyable and wanted everyone's opinion. I said that CES is good at analyzing associative tells so strongly preferred them over NS. You and Cabd discussed a bit more and agreed.
UNVOTE:
So what do you think of Ampersand's notscience-Medea case? You've mostly ignored it aside from calling us both (Ampersand and Medea) town.
--PA
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And your take on them saying that my response was avoiding the meat of the case, or however they phrased it?In post 2406, Ghatokaca wrote:Perhaps he thought Chamber was a more threatening player/power role. Toasty's role is basically an IC and wouldn't be active threat that the scum need to eliminate immediately over investigative PR's for instance.In post 2402, Medea the Alien wrote:Why does scum-notscience let TT get another neighborizer shot off?
So what do you think of Ampersand's notscience-Medea case? You've mostly ignored it aside from calling us both (Ampersand and Medea) town.
I wanted to let the case play out and let you sort each other without jumping in. It felt like you were genuinely trying to assess each others affiliation as opposed to it being unproductive noise.
~ F-16
--PA
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We do actually. The whole tammy fucking up on my role card's wording thing.In post 2421, ToastyToast wrote:we don't know if scum would have the ability to roleblock me
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In post 2299, Medea the Alien wrote: 2) In terms of Cabd talking about being a town neighborizer, I assume you mean /m6, as that's the only place I find such a reference. And that's the opening of the neighborhood in which the irony of us being a town neighborizer in the wake of Cabd being a scum neighborizer/the events of Mini 1531 is being referenced. If you want me to go into explaining any further I will, given that I pretty much agreed to take whatever fallout came my way from my choices that game.
See the quote above for context of 'town neighborizer' explained, since I clicked them in the wrong order and I'm not recutting the quote on my tablet. I can't make you see that before /53, we were in position to go with notscience as the addition with no protests, and as the ones with the final decision-making power, it would have been really easy to go the other way. And there's a difference between granting town credit for a decision and saying that a decision is indicative of scum. Your doing the latter made no sense; I can accept the former.In post 2429, Ampersand wrote:I wanted to address this point anyway because it illustrates what I meant when I was talking about your response to the case. If you want X to happen and are planning on X as scum, it's fairly common to go "Yeah, X is good. Hmm, maybe Y. I'll think I'll go for X in the end." I was well aware that you mentioned our slot explicitly as a neighborisation option but without F-16's #55, you can just go ahead and pick notscience. #55 explicitly frames it as notscience vs. us and gives a strong reason to pick us to boot; at that point, yeah, I'm not giving you town credit for picking us.In post 2393, Medea the Alien wrote:Ampersand, you say that you think we're scum with notscience for the Friendly Neighbor theory. And that we were forced to bypass the chance to neighborize notscience instead of you. Yet you haven't acknowledged the accuracy of my point that I (penguin_alien) was the one who first suggested neighborizing you. Not pushed into it. Not because anyone objected to notscience. My freely generated idea. For the general edification of the game thread, true or false?
The "town neighboriser" thing too; the point there is the use of the word "town". Does context explain that?
--PA
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Cabd head on V/LA for three days due to being sick.
Mina, you've basically reversed my read on you over the course of your posting today. Convenient, maybe, but it is what it is. I think Hanzo's scum and have for a while, even if I let the read go when it turned into 'big mean penguin picking on poor wittle Hanzo' and whatnot. Ampersand has shown no interest in considering the facts of the situation (and I can't believe that they don't get the irony of scum neighborizer versus town neighborizer), whereas Ghatokaca showed a surprising lack of initiative to comment on a case being made based on communication they were the only other ones able to access.
I also think it pings a bit that Ampersand set things up such that so much town power had to come out into the open. They made a push on us that required us to reveal the nature of the neighborhood, and in the process made it so the friendly neighbor theory had to come out. I don't trust their play.
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To be fair, Cabd would probably gambit like that. Sometimes I think he gambits reflexively. This isn't one of those times, probably because the truth is as entertaining as any gambit.In post 2533, Mina wrote:I had a realization today.
If BRO had fullclaimed his role and didn't have a roleblocker shot, Medea would be close to confirmed town. Because it occurred to me that a neighbourizing night action with instantaneous effect would almost certainly have a clause about roleblocking in its PM. There's no way they bullshitted that part. Would Cabd really gambit by making up the "the" instead of the "a"?
Medea, do you agree with Ampersand's assessment of Ghatokaca's neighbourhood posting being town as undriven snow? Their D3 posting certainly hasn't been close to it.
I think, push comes to shove, Ghatokaca was being pretty towny in that they were basically having hydra conversations in the neighborhood. Such an approach, if they were town reading us and Ampersand, is consistent with Nacho's limited time at present. I'm not sure the content was quite as unambiguously towny as Ampersand saw. Presumably someone else will be able to see and judge it tonight. My PoE pool is shrinking though. Will be reevaluating Ghatokaca from both perspectives when Cabd is back in the swing of things.
--PA
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Hi. I see I was asked for by name. I have gambited this game, just not in the thread. You'll have to wait and see.In post 2537, Mina wrote:EBWOP: I'd find it sloppy not to specify whether a night action that resolves right away can be roleblocked.
Cabd, if you're telling the truth about "the" roleblocker, then why haven't you gambited this game?
I'm annoyed by my realization right now, because it makes my reads really messy.
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...just a bit better, yes.In post 2564, Mina wrote:Would you consider an Ampersand wagon today, Medea?
(Uh...this would have been a better question if I hadn't already posted 2560. )
At this point I'm pretty sure I want Aronis for the lynch. So I don't want an Ampersand lynch today. If nothing else, I figure we can pull someone else into the QT tonight and get more content out of Ampersand that'll help in deciding things tomorrow. At that point, even if Aronis manages to flip town, there's guaranteed to be another town player in the neighborhood besides us by sheer numbers. I'm OK gathering more input, and given that a lot of Ampersand's case against us hinges on neighborhood interactions, having more viewpoints on that is to the good.
Ampersand, if you got what you wanted and we were dead so you could see our town alignment, what would your take on notscience be? In other words, ignoring your belief that no one could come up with a friendly neighbor theory without inside info, what's the meat of your case?
--PA
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I find it very weird that you would push her toward using it if you didn't want her or one of her scum reads dead. I'm surprised that you didn't anticipate that she'd pick Aronis. Especially after Aronis's unexplained reads?In post 2583, bazinga wrote:also i find it very weird that mala is just holding onto the gladiating power, im surprised she doesnt have a real scumread to use it on? esp. after saying mina and hanzo/aronis were her scumreads?
No intention of voting any time soon; it should be obvious which side of this gladiate we're on. More interested in seeing what the other non-voting people do here.
--PA
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Allow me:
Q1: How do you read the two?
A> Malatown, Aronistown
B> Malascum, Aronisscum
C> Malatown, Aronisscum
D> Malascum, Aronistown
A> Aronis, his trolling will lead him to totally vote scum!
Decision: Then vote Malakittens.
B> Malakittens, she's afk a ton but I feel like she'd be more logical.
Decision: Then vote Aronis
A>..Yes?
Decision: Cry yourself to sleep in indecisiveness, and then vote Aronis since mala's power is evident whereas Aronis could have a night action
B>...No?
Decision: Cry yourself to sleep in indecisiveness, and then vote Aronis since mala's power is evident whereas Aronis could have a night action
Decision: Vote your scumread Aronis then, fool.
Decision: Vote your scumread Malakittens then, fool.
Hey, you. I see you're playing Mini 1547 and have to pick between Malakittens and Aronis. Hard choice for you? Read on!
Q1: How do you read the two?
A> Malatown, Aronistown
B> Malascum, Aronisscum
C> Malatown, Aronisscum
D> Malascum, Aronistown
If you picked "A":
Q2: Which one would you rather have as a town ally in LYLO?
A> Aronis, his trolling will lead him to totally vote scum!
Decision: Then vote Malakittens.
B> Malakittens, she's afk a ton but I feel like she'd be more logical.
Decision: Then vote Aronis
If you picked "B":
Q3: Wait, both the players you think are scum are locked in a forced deathmatch, and you can't pick one?
A>..Yes?
Decision: Cry yourself to sleep in indecisiveness, and then vote Aronis since mala's power is evident whereas Aronis could have a night action
B>...No?
Decision: Cry yourself to sleep in indecisiveness, and then vote Aronis since mala's power is evident whereas Aronis could have a night action
If you picked "C"
Decision: Vote your scumread Aronis then, fool.
If you picked "D"
Decision: Vote your scumread Malakittens then, fool.
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I can certify that playing against his wincon to troll is alignment non-indicative. It doesn't make him any more worthy of occupying a seat in the game should we reach LYLO.In post 2671, Mina wrote:See, part of me wants to ask Bert for links to see if Aronis would pull this as town.
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Noted, it'll be debated.In post 2665, Mina wrote:I'm just stating a selfish preference (I won't go as far as to call it a request) to be neighbourized so I can see for myself the difference in Ghato's and Medea's posting there--at least, if no one else wants it more urgently. I understand if the people in the neighborhood don't trust me with whatever sensitive information is there, or if they think someone else can make better use of the neighbourhood.
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(For neighborhood reference, /m64, N2)In post 2696, Mina wrote:Also, penguin assured Ghatokaca in the neighbourhood early N2 (or was it N1?) when discussing my meta that this was consistent withAnything Goes. Uh...except it really, really, really, really, REALLY isn't? Just look at what mollie argued. Their N1 posts could have been trying to appease Ghatokaca and fan their paranoia of me (in particular, saying on N1 how super-scum I wassince the middle of the day, given F-16 had ended the day with a case on me, which they claimed they never mentioned just because they were too focused on BRO).
You being waffly and uncommitted, plus playing on people's sympathies, I didn't see much difference. And I think it was really the post-reads list play from you that made me start thinking you were scummy. See: 1044.
Cabd and I haven't finished our pairings run through. We'll probably do that today. Some stuff just got really clear to me though.
--PA
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Which part? Because minimum one of my town reads from that point is wrong.In post 2708, Ghatokaca wrote:What happened to this read, penguin?In post 2264, Medea the Alien wrote:...so we're apparently full-claiming our role /in before everyone starts asking what the hell this is aboutIn post 2263, Medea the Alien wrote:Because yes, when I draw scum I set out to get night info from my scumbud night 1, neighborize one of my most vocal critics after busing the holy shining fuck out of my scum partner, and then proceed to rant at said vocal critic about my great theory for how toasty can be town.
You've got me.
At least fenchurch's posting made sense.
Yeah, we're an unlimited shot neighborizer where all the neighbors share a single QT. We opted to add Ampersand in last night on the basis of a) Mala was sick and unlikely to talk much, b) there was doubt about how well bazinga would work with existing neighbors (sorry, but it'll be there to read in the post-game), and c) no way in hell did Ampersand bypass the chance to lynch us or Ghatokaca to bus a partner unless Ghatokaca is, contrary to our read, a super-awesome scum PR.
With the cat out of the bag, I'll say that whatever posturing CES is doing aside (which is pretty much exactly the posturing he said he'd be doing during our neighborhood talk) I'm very sure Ampersand is town. Leading the Osseus lynch aside, Fenchurch's comments plus some things CES was doing make me positive they're town.
Here's where I stand. Mala, Ampersand, notscience, ToastyToast, Ghatokaca town in no particular order. bazinga: town with whom I'm having major communication issues. Scum: Mina, Hanzo.
I have to head out right now, but I'll be around later to elaborate on those reads.
--PA
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In post 2127, Mina wrote:F-16, I think you'rereallylooking for the wrong things to read me with...
...but that post tipped me over to wanting to vote Osseus. Any last words?
In post 2129, bazinga wrote:hi mina i am annoyed by you for making me wait like this
what is wrong with you
End of the day. I really don't see where Mina was backed into a corner on this one. Bazinga was apparently looking to sheep Mina, and they'd gotten to the point where I think they almost just wanted a decision more than a right decision. Bussing for town cred is all well and good, but I really think Mina could have done this in a way to get more town cred from the move, even with the waffle appearances to maintain as scum. Besides, mislynch you, and the Osseus bus is still on the table but at a time when it's even more controlled. Plus I don't think anyone came out planning to bus Osseus given D1, which means delaying it until D3 would have let scum get more control over it.
Which is one of the things I did like about a possible Mala-notscience team. Checking the VCs again...
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In post 2730, notscience wrote:@Cabd if you try to pull that you better lynch me first and not vote Mala after my townflip
Like really.
I also laughed harder than I should have at Nacho's guide to reading me
Today's Medea posting has all been brought to you by me, PA. I just stopped signing while going back and forth with Nacho; sorry about that.In post 2731, notscience wrote:/tinfoil
Nacho killed bazinga because mollie was starting to turn on them
Cabd how would you feel if you let Nachofalcon convince you to invite their scumbuddy into the neighborhood
I think I'd die laughing
Still our idea to add Ampersand, little as they want to believe it. And at this point it's either a you-Mala team or we have scum in the neighborhood. So we'll be amused in the aftermath any way this goes down. More amused for the former than the latter, but we'll just have to see.
Ampersand, did you ever take a look at our interactions in the wake of your case and my response to it? Because I still maintain that y'all pretty much declined to engage with anything I said.
--PA
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Ghatokaca, I'm down to Ampersand only making sense as scum with you, and even that involves sacrificing Osseus for you in light of the implications of the Chistery-VT claim. I'd be happier if they'd stop exclusively looking for scum motives in everything we do and say and everything that other players bring to the table about us. I think we're working toward that with them going back to see that I took their concerns about us seriously, and hopefully we can be more productive.
Cabd and I haven't touched base since the day started, but this post freaked me out entirely:
Overall this reads as Mala having tunneled Hanzo until she got the lynch, and now she doesn't know where to jump. No questions, no plan on how to resolve the ambiguities in her reads. I really don't like it, and it pretty much guts my town read.
The rest of the pairings analysis will be coming when I synch up with Cabd. Sorry for the delay.
--PA
(Also for meta if you want my most recent completed town game that's Micro 302, and other recent scum games include Micro 267 (hydra'd) and Mini 1527 (in the Normal section) but I don't want to pile on the work either, just an FYI)
Cabd and I haven't touched base since the day started, but this post freaked me out entirely:
Inconclusive NK analysis that rather selectively considers the implications of a bazinga kill, overall lack of conclusions, avoiding taking any stances. Even going back on the strong town read on us based on a neighborhood post she hasn't seen (and that Mala doesn't see the inherent irony involved boggles my mind) while still citing being sure of us and ending up conflicted?In post 2752, Malakittens wrote:I just decided to reread Ossy's ISO. I'm wondering if Ossy and Nacho were straight bussing on Day 1 and Day 2. I did find in Day 2 Ossy's constant "they are scum, lynch it" as scummy behavior. Bazinga had Ghat/Nacho as strong scum and was killed last night, but part of me wonders if it was a setup to frame them by scum. I really am liking Mina as town for her recent posts Day 4. I know I didn't like her last day phrase and her back and forth between Nacho. I'm still paranoid of a Mina-Ghat scum team, but I'm not going to go all hog crazy on a theory especially when I tried to tie Mina up with Hanzo it blew up in my face.
Amper had a good point about Peng/Cabd and their emphasis on "town" neighborizer, but however I am referring to posts that Peng has made in Day 2. I'm not sure why it got under my skin, but with Peng's meta I'm sure of that slot being town. So conflicted there.
Overall this reads as Mala having tunneled Hanzo until she got the lynch, and now she doesn't know where to jump. No questions, no plan on how to resolve the ambiguities in her reads. I really don't like it, and it pretty much guts my town read.
The rest of the pairings analysis will be coming when I synch up with Cabd. Sorry for the delay.
--PA
(Also for meta if you want my most recent completed town game that's Micro 302, and other recent scum games include Micro 267 (hydra'd) and Mini 1527 (in the Normal section) but I don't want to pile on the work either, just an FYI)
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...F-16 took the words out of my mouth. Cabd called us a town neighborizer once, /m6 in the neighborhood, and nowhere in-thread. Search our ISO for "town neighborizer" and you'll see it doesn't come up until Ampersand raises the point from the neighborhood citation. (Ninja'd again, but what about the claim bothers you?)
Mala, how do you feel about bazinga having initially voted you over Aronis and turning up dead the next day?
F-16, I have very little experience with notscience as scum. But what I do have is from FEA where I started as a fresh child slot D2 as a scum buddy of his and, um, accidentally helped lynch him. Not sure I ever apologized for that. But with all the players involved, I lost track of him being on my team and thought he looked really scummy. That does make me think I might recognize him as scum, which isn't the vibe I'm getting here.
Mina, I don't know. I kind of liked her neighborhood participation, but I did feel that her focus on night one over night two where more significant interaction happened was awkward, and I get a weird vibe from how she didn't really defend Cabd's choice to do pairings-based analysis but jumped in here today liking the idea. But then she pointed out town tell stuff from me that she didn't have to, and I don't think I'd want her lynched today pending the aforementioned analysis with Cabd. Overall my read on her is hovering around null, having been steadily improving from Day Three on.
--PA
Mala, how do you feel about bazinga having initially voted you over Aronis and turning up dead the next day?
F-16, I have very little experience with notscience as scum. But what I do have is from FEA where I started as a fresh child slot D2 as a scum buddy of his and, um, accidentally helped lynch him. Not sure I ever apologized for that. But with all the players involved, I lost track of him being on my team and thought he looked really scummy. That does make me think I might recognize him as scum, which isn't the vibe I'm getting here.
Mina, I don't know. I kind of liked her neighborhood participation, but I did feel that her focus on night one over night two where more significant interaction happened was awkward, and I get a weird vibe from how she didn't really defend Cabd's choice to do pairings-based analysis but jumped in here today liking the idea. But then she pointed out town tell stuff from me that she didn't have to, and I don't think I'd want her lynched today pending the aforementioned analysis with Cabd. Overall my read on her is hovering around null, having been steadily improving from Day Three on.
--PA
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My point about bazinga is that you say a bazinga kill implicates Ghatokaca, but I'm not sure that you don't benefit from them being dead. Frankly a lot of people as scum could be said to have had motivation for wanting them dead, including us, so why say that it points to Ghatokaca above anyone else?
Your behavior in the 1531 neighborhood was consistent in 20/20 hindsight with you being uncomfortable with the mason hoodwinking process, not your alignment in general. And that behavior was you not posting much at all. As for this game, N2 you were sick, N3 there were reasons to extend the time Mina could talk to neighborhood members, plus we wanted to see how she'd follow up on having asked to be neighborized.
At this point we're pretty clearly a neighborizer, so any gambiting would be a matter of alignment. And I think you (in general) really have to ask how much sense our use of the role makes for scum. I'll let people continue to draw their own conclusions, but I think there are some fairly obvious points.
--PA
P-edit: heh, yeah, notscience, I mean I'm pretty much the neighbor from hell, so having driven the decisions to pull in every scum player I could get my mitts on wouldn't exactly shock me. Not sure that's the case though. What are you thinking, beyond voting Ghatokaca?
Your behavior in the 1531 neighborhood was consistent in 20/20 hindsight with you being uncomfortable with the mason hoodwinking process, not your alignment in general. And that behavior was you not posting much at all. As for this game, N2 you were sick, N3 there were reasons to extend the time Mina could talk to neighborhood members, plus we wanted to see how she'd follow up on having asked to be neighborized.
At this point we're pretty clearly a neighborizer, so any gambiting would be a matter of alignment. And I think you (in general) really have to ask how much sense our use of the role makes for scum. I'll let people continue to draw their own conclusions, but I think there are some fairly obvious points.
--PA
P-edit: heh, yeah, notscience, I mean I'm pretty much the neighbor from hell, so having driven the decisions to pull in every scum player I could get my mitts on wouldn't exactly shock me. Not sure that's the case though. What are you thinking, beyond voting Ghatokaca?
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Mina, my confusion is that Ampersand said they didn't think pairings analysis would do anything to find scum, and you said nothing about it.
And given that Ampersand is scum reading us in large part over things that happened N2, I am actually interested in your thoughts about what went down then. Because unless it's a notscience-Mala team (and I don't think notscience is scum) from town-you perspective at least one scum was involved in the 150ish neighborhood posts from then.
Also, drunk posting confuses me, like, how do people post drunk but still think to include extraneous coding tags? The difference between lack of inhibition and lack of faculties?
--PA
And given that Ampersand is scum reading us in large part over things that happened N2, I am actually interested in your thoughts about what went down then. Because unless it's a notscience-Mala team (and I don't think notscience is scum) from town-you perspective at least one scum was involved in the 150ish neighborhood posts from then.
Also, drunk posting confuses me, like, how do people post drunk but still think to include extraneous coding tags? The difference between lack of inhibition and lack of faculties?
--PA
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Oh hi I sort of forgot about this game...
I do prefer scum, but that doesn't mean lack of activity is a towntell for me.
You'll want better reasons than that to townbin me, notscience.
Mala, you're worrying me the fuck out, and we both know that when i Get these feelings you suddenly start flipping scum, so if you're not scum fix that please.
Amper, for clarity, do you think the roleblocker knowledge is a lie, or the truth? This is important so please definitively answer.
Mina, I know you asked me shit, hang on and let me find and respond.
I do prefer scum, but that doesn't mean lack of activity is a towntell for me.
You'll want better reasons than that to townbin me, notscience.
Mala, you're worrying me the fuck out, and we both know that when i Get these feelings you suddenly start flipping scum, so if you're not scum fix that please.
Amper, for clarity, do you think the roleblocker knowledge is a lie, or the truth? This is important so please definitively answer.
Mina, I know you asked me shit, hang on and let me find and respond.
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Re the first, it's mostly because she was on vacation and I'm a lazy bum, and we didn;t finish the pairings on time so we just kinda... left it and went back to focusing on the wider area thread.In post 2776, Mina wrote:...well, after rereading the end of D2, and after F-16 started sounding town just as I'd started feeling pretty happy with Nacho scum, and after everyone else also started sounding tonally town AND vouching super hard for penguin's meta, I'm back to completely hating this game again!
I've been tempted by a utilitarian Mala wagon mostly because she fits as a partner to most people and I don't think town has five power roles. I still feel like some stuff doesn't fit with her as scum, though. :/
(I started rereading all of Fenchurch's scum games because I've been so paranoid given the lack of non-Ampersand scumteams that work. Although she can be superficially protown and fake the indecisive wishy-washiness to some extent, there was barely any emotion in them.)
You made it sound like you had an actual full-blown town read on me on D3 and in the neighbourhood. If your read is at the peak it's ever been, it really shouldn't be null.In post 2766, Medea the Alien wrote:Mina, I don't know. I kind of liked her neighborhood participation, but I did feel that her focus on night one over night two where more significant interaction happened was awkward, and I get a weird vibe from how she didn't really defend Cabd's choice to do pairings-based analysis but jumped in here today liking the idea. But then she pointed out town tell stuff from me that she didn't have to, and I don't think I'd want her lynched today pending the aforementioned analysis with Cabd. Overall my read on her is hovering around null, having been steadily improving from Day Three on.
Cabd STARTING pairings-based analysis (as in, posting the list of names) is pretty null either way--I didn't like that you didn't show your conclusions with it, but was waiting to see what.
Also, N1 came first? So I started writing notes on N1, but then became distracted by other things before finishing the N2 ones. If you're really interested in my thoughts on N2 for their own sake (rather than for the sake of calling my lack of thoughts on N2 scummy), I can continue with the notes. I just find it a bit tedious, and even when I'm hyper-invested in a game like I am here, I can still be pretty disorganized and lazy.
Cabd, thoughts on this?In post 2480, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Why haven't you asked me if I had a reason to think Cabd can read me? I'll answer anyways. Cabd has read plenty of my games, and has even said once that he pegged me as scum in a game after it ended. There is a large enough variation in my town and scum games that someone like Cabd should be able to read me very easily. This is very blatantly my towngame. I am not this skilled as scum. My scumgame amounts to lots of lurking. My best scumgame was where I replaced into an autowin situation and twisted my scumbuddy's meta to call him town and held myself together for 4 real life days in 5P LYLO, so it wasn't even a big deal at all. Bert and Nacho know about this. All other scumgames are much worse. You should check my wiki or ask someone like Tammy, Nacho, or Bert who actually know what my scumgame looks like.
(There's stuff I'll say to Nacho later. I still think F-16 looks looser and more natural in the New York game, but there are still a few posts here that I find hard to reconcile with scum!him, and I also need to read more of his scum games. Wow, I'm starting to hate MS's culture of using meta as a crutch, even though I'm an equally bad offender, particularly when entire games revolve around, "This person looked townier in this other game, so let's lynch him even though he looks like town here. This person looked SCUMMIER in this other game, so let's not lynch him even though he looks like scum here.")
Re the f16 quote, it's changed a bit since that game due to some sitechatting and such, but I'm not sure exactly what you want me to say in regards to it? That I'm reading him as town? Because uh, duh, yes?
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K so what's your townblock look like? And if you're scumreading nachofalcon still, then don't bother inviting me.
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As Cabd said, yeah, F-16 pretty much nailed my game to the wall. I'm hard-pressed to disagree with any part of his assessment. Which leaves me torn between wanting to charge him rent for the time he obviously spent in my head and feeling kind of awkward that I'm that transparent.In post 2837, Ampersand wrote:In considering all of that, let's start simple: Penguin, do you intentionally avoid forcefulness as scum? Do you agree with F-16's assessment that "Penguin is actually a very competent scum player. She is competent because she is good at making plans, strategizing and executing those plans while subtly pushing a scum agenda"?
Unrelated to anything else, I think it's worth mentioning that the details of Mala's gladiator seem to confirm her as Dorothy; flavour has 2 obvious baddies, the Wizard and Madam Morrible, so if we get a scum flip that's not either of those two (e.g. Glinda the Good, Mafia Neighborizer), then that would be rather informative.
In your unrelated comment, do you think the mod wouldn't provide fake flavor for a scum gladiator and/or mod-confirm someone's flavor? I think Mala's either scum with Dorothy as fake flavor (probably for Nessarose, given her obsessive personality) or town who is Dorothy. But I'm not willing to assume either way.
And wait, you believe we're Glinda but think we'd flip scum? The hell?
You think four town PRs of at least equal strength to a scum PR is scum-sided? Also hating the 'at least' qualifier on you saying one of {us, Mala} is scum.In post 2838, Ampersand wrote:Now, let's do something more fun since notscience was doing it already - set-up speculation! Admittedly, some of it'll be things I've said before but I think it's worth while having it all in one place. First of all, notscience, chambsuki was a 1-shot rolecop, not cop.
Okay, so we know we have a Friendly Neighbor and a JoaT (vig + powers unknown, but presumably not the strongest). That's a nice start but town needs some serious power in your standard 10:3 and this is not it.
So we get to the 3 roles that I'd class as confirmable but low-key: one-shot rolecop, gladiator and neighborizer. Here we get a bit of wiggle because on the one hand the raw power there really isn't enough for the town but on the other hand it's a lot of PRs that claim well; I don't see myself modding a set-up with 5 town PRs that claim well, 5 VTs and 3 Mafia Goons, so that already implies to me that scum have some sort of power; since the issue here is claiming and since at the same time you don't want to give scum more power, the obvious route is to give scum exactly one of those low-key roles that claim well. This, combined with my next point (in that there really aren't going to be 6 town PRs vs. a scum team with no claimable powers), is where my belief comes from that at least one of Medea and Mala has to be scum.
So now we're at Friendly Neighbor + JoaT + 2 low-key role vs. 1 low-key scum role. That's still scum-sided and as is, there's no way for the one-shot vig to combine with any other pro-town power role to produce an extra lynch. Hence, it seems natural for me to assume that 1) there's another town PR and 2) it can prevent kills in some way (e.g. doctor, bulletproof).
(It's worth noting in all of this that Faraday reviewed it.)
I'll reply to your post about your case on us when I'm on my computer later.
I was also reading over Zdenek's ISO a couple days ago and remembered that there were some relevant points there, especially in conjunction with the bazinga NK. I'll post that later too.
--PA
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Holy crap on a cracker, where did this come from? I had zero recollection of this, and I ctrl+F'd my way through bazinga's ISO and found not one single instance of 'SK' or 'serial' anywhere therein. And yes, I looked for 'sk' too. I don't even...In post 2862, Ampersand wrote:I think penguin's D1 push on BRO could have been partly for the same reasons bazinga gave: that they thought he might be an SK. This would make the push more genuine. I think Medea's reads since then, in particular the switch on us and on you and now Mala, are scummy.
Reactions. Information. Which is starting to become very useful in light of posts like the following:Something that only occurred to me recently...
Medea: Given that it outs you as a power role; what was your reason behind claiming the roleblocker thing on Day 1?
- Fenchurch
(Emphasis mine)In post 2861, Ampersand wrote:I'm not ruling out that you're making it up although I admit you telling the truth about what you know does seem most straightforward. Which doesn't necessarily mean that there's a roleblocker.In post 2846, Medea the Alien wrote:Amper, for clarity, do you think the roleblocker knowledge is a lie, or the truth? This is important so pleasedefinitivelyanswer.
So we could be lying, or we could be telling the truth. Either way doesn't mean there is or isn't a roleblocker. Seriously, this is the most waffly thing I've seen all game. It's like a leaning tower of waffle, overshadowing Mina and bazinga when that deadline starts ticking down. Fascinating that you can ascribe all sorts of scum motivation to everything I do, but you won't take a stance here. When, hey, if you think we're scum, you should have a darn good idea of what our goals might be.
We'll chat about what this likely means later.
(Apart from the game, I hope you feel better re: kidney troubles)
Another post I was working on incoming...
--PA
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Um, not asking for town cred off the decision. You said that how it went down was indicative of us being scum who got forced into the choice. I pointed out that we certainly weren't forced into the choice. Saying something isn't scummy =/= expecting town cred for it.In post 2841, Ampersand wrote:1) Neighbourising us:
I agreed with CES' description in #2428, but the way you've pushed it since seems like maybe you did think this decision was a way to get town-cred.
/m76 is the only place where I sidetrack into set-up spec. That you would say otherwise is utterly confusing. Gut reads to be addressed at next point.2) The focus on setup spec:
It's not that your setup spec itself was scummy or unjustified - I was thinking a lot of the same things on N2, and that's part of why I initially read you as town when I entered the quicktopic. It's that, there was more of it and less of anything else. I feel like you haven’t given much in the way of gut reads, and that makes me think you probably aren’t having them.
I'm sold on Ghatokaca town. And aren't we past the point of gut reads here? If you really think we haven't been working to hone reads and being fairly clear about what we think from day to day, you're not reading the thread very closely.3) Lack of gut reads:
Here's one where I feel you talk around the point rather than explaining it. Yes, I agree that Nacho + F16 were basically having hydra talk in the quicktopic, but the fact that they could do that (convincingly) makes me think they're town. And yes, you could be listing reads in the thread instead of the quicktopic, but again, I don't feel like you have been doing that as much as everyone else has; and the reads that you have given seem odd and insincere to me.
Discussion and speculation in the environment of the neighborhood is pro-town. So you're saying that I did something that you'd see as town, but I must be scum for doing it? At that point I thought you two were at least vaguely inclined to work with us, and considering why Zdenek was NK'd would have been useful. Instead you were apparently looking for reasons to find us scummy. Nice game play there.1) The Zdenek kill:
Similar to previous point 1) about neighbourising us, I feel that you volunteered to answer because you felt the honesty would make you look more town, whereas holding back would seem scummy.
Sigh. It's ironic either way, quite frankly. And we're obviously not in a position to repeat 1531 on someone else here. A) no masons, B) no one quite as fucking stupid as me running around, C) unlimited neighborizer is much better used in other ways as scum or town. Where are you getting that I said one would be more ironic than the other one?2) Use of the phrase ‘town neighbouriser’:
Re: #2486 - No, I don’t get how you being a town neighbouriser would bemoreironic than you being a scum one. If anything I’d say it’s the other way around – that after you were fooled by Cabd in 1531, you’d now be in a position to try and do the same to someone else! So to me, the wording seems forced and unnatural, like you want to make sure people don’t leap to the conclusion that it’s the same scenario, but also don't want to draw attention to the fact that you're doing that.
How many hydras have you been in? Serious question here. I've been town in four hydras in completed games now, and I've had various levels of synchronicity therein. Some I've been pretty much on the same page with (Ghostlin) some I've ended up with pretty different reads (Nacho) and some have been mostly in synch with points of contention (BRO, Mala). I don't have any definitive conclusions on what style is most effective (honing reads through disagreement or reinforcing one another's good instincts) but when you say that one isn't more likely to agree by virtue of hydraing, that has nothing to do with whether one is *less* likely to disagree in a hydra. Not to mention that if you've been paying attention, we do disagree on points (more Cabd disagreeing with me than vice versa) but let one another's pushes play out anyways.3) Lack of hydra dissonance:
I know first-hand that ability to communicate readily about the game doesn't make it more likely that you'll agree on things. So it doesn’t explain why you don’t have seem to have much in the way of individual reads; it is more like you’ve both settled on the stance that you think seems reasonable, and then written your thoughts to fit that.
You did notice that at the end of N1 we were disinclined to give them more than we got in return, yes? There's a reason for that. I'm not thrilled that they didn't get involved in your D3 case, given that they were the only ones with access to all of it, but in light of the rest of their play before and after that I don't care overmuch now. Plus both they and Mina have access to the raw material, so it's less of a paranoia thing now.4) Your early strong-townread on Ghato:
Again, I said specific reasons why I think your declared townread on Ghato didn’t match what was in the thread at the time (regardless of your experience playing with them), and you don’t really address these. I also found it weird that you didn’t even waver after their slightly poor showing in neighbourhood on N1, which seems like something that at least make you re-consider them as possible scum. And then, you switch to scumreading them on D3 for their lack of input on our case. That seemed again, to me, like a relatively weak reason for such a dramatic change of stance. And now they've given an explanation for it – how has that affected your opinion? I asked this in the neighbourhood but I don't think you've answered.
Also we did go back on our read on them during Day Two for a bit. It recovered and all, but it does mean that you characterizing our suspicion of them D3 as a dramatic change of stance is inaccurate.
CES said he'd vote us if our TT-Friendly Neighbor theory was borne out and Katsuki died. Pretty gimmie things given chamber's claim and how much sense TT as FN made. And one of them was in your power to make happen as scum, kind of undermining your vast outrage. And there's a difference between disbelief and thinking something's dumb.5) Cabd's sarcastic reaction to our vote:
I tend to expect town to give more of a defence than essentially 'yeah, right', regardless of personality. It also seems disingenuous to react with disbelief when CES had been open about his suspicion of you throughout Days 1 + 2, and how it might be affected by events on Day 3.
If we bussed Osseus here it would indicate some serious lack of planning. Not much in the way of town cred to be gained, and we'd been willing to lynch him from D1 on. Yet we made zero effort to avoid the bus. Given how little I like bussing, I can say unequivocally that if I was going to bus I'd get a hell of a lot more out of it than we were poised to there. It also means that our willingness to compromise on Osseus Day One indicated a willingness to sacrifice a teammate D1 when we had the option to reverse our early stance on Ghatokaca. You can probably ask F-16 how I feel about bussing teammates.6) Osseus lynch seeming like a bus:
Regardless of who else you were interested in lynching, I feel like you gave little in the way to explain Osseus's place near the bottom on your reads list, or explain why you were so willing to compromise on him, and that to me fits with it being a bus.
Side note: now I'm dropping scum tells? :rolls eyes: Although, amusingly enough, I drop more scum tells as town than as scum. There was a good one in NY 161 over a year ago where I typed 'kill' instead of 'investigate' and couldn't shake it the whole game.
Zdenek thoughts coming later.
--PA
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Zdenek thoughts in light of how things have gone since his NK. Because both the Zdenek and bazinga NKs are somewhat anomalous, and I don't believe scum are throwing darts at a board to pick their NKs.
Here's what I saw from Zdenek:
Put together with the bazinga kill. (I'm discounting Katsuki because I think that was an obv-'kill the PR' dealio) Two people die while screaming for Ghatokaca's head. Oddly enough, I don't think either Ghatokaca head is that unsubtle. And given how things have been going down these last few days, frankly if Ghatokaca was scum and I was their buddy, this is one time when I'd be looking to bus them. Not wasting NKs on people whose deaths are unlikely to eliminate the pressure on him anyways.
I'm thinking that scum is awkwardly trying to keep the heat on Ghatokaca without getting their hands dirty. I think a bazinga kill was one that wasn't going to significantly reduce the overall squabbling level among town given the splits in the neighborhood, which I'm positive scum have a front-row seat for. But it does manage to cast doubt on us, Ghatokaca, and Mala. If they're trying to frame Ghatokaca, I think they're being too heavy-handed. If they're trying to frame us, they're not taking into account that I have a bias towards NKing people who are town reading me. If they're trying to frame Mala...eh. That feels less likely, TBH.
notscience, Ghatokaca, what are your thoughts on the Zdenek-bazinga NK combo?
--PA
Here's what I saw from Zdenek:
In post 594, Zdenek wrote:Anyway, here's where I am at.
Town: Mina, Malakittens
Weaker Town: Chamber, Bazinga, notscience
Null, not willing to lynch: Toasty, Broseidon
Null, willing to lynch: Medea, Hanzo, Ampersand.
Scum: Osseus, Ghatokaca.
I kind of want to lynch Osseus because an Osseus scum flip would mean that we should insta-lynch Ampersand.
Him accurately scum reading Osseus probably wouldn't be enough to incite the NK. But linking two scum buddies? Yeah, that'd make me worry as scum. Obviously I'm biased because he also spent a lot of time going after Ghatokaca, and to a lesser extent, us. But!In post 910, Zdenek wrote:Vote: Osseus
L-1.
I still think that if Osseus flips scum that the first order of business is to lynch &. Also, I have no idea what & is getting at in their last post.
Put together with the bazinga kill. (I'm discounting Katsuki because I think that was an obv-'kill the PR' dealio) Two people die while screaming for Ghatokaca's head. Oddly enough, I don't think either Ghatokaca head is that unsubtle. And given how things have been going down these last few days, frankly if Ghatokaca was scum and I was their buddy, this is one time when I'd be looking to bus them. Not wasting NKs on people whose deaths are unlikely to eliminate the pressure on him anyways.
I'm thinking that scum is awkwardly trying to keep the heat on Ghatokaca without getting their hands dirty. I think a bazinga kill was one that wasn't going to significantly reduce the overall squabbling level among town given the splits in the neighborhood, which I'm positive scum have a front-row seat for. But it does manage to cast doubt on us, Ghatokaca, and Mala. If they're trying to frame Ghatokaca, I think they're being too heavy-handed. If they're trying to frame us, they're not taking into account that I have a bias towards NKing people who are town reading me. If they're trying to frame Mala...eh. That feels less likely, TBH.
notscience, Ghatokaca, what are your thoughts on the Zdenek-bazinga NK combo?
--PA
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bazinga was the only one to vote Mala in the gladiator showdown aside from Aronis. When I started looking at things, it felt more relevant. Also, bazinga might have been pushing Ghatokaca harder, but any push from TT is from conftown and (given mollie's recent misread) carries more weight.
Not sure who I'd have killed. I'd have played D1 differently in that I'd have worked to push the Ghatokaca lynch, or at least not derail it. Which would have changed the landscape. Neighborize decisions would have been different; I'd have neighborized Mala off the bat to make it look like I was reaching out to her, which I know she likes. N2, notscience or Katsuki, N3 TT or notscience if not already neighborized. Although I'd have made a big deal out of soliciting Mala's input on the neighborize decision. Kill-wise, taking each day individually, I'd have killed Katsuki N2, that's obvious. N3, given claimed town power, probably just get TT out of the way, maximize town squabbling, minimize new info. Maybe notscience if I'd neighborized him N2, let him live N2 and kill him N3. Keeps the neighborhood under control.
Mina, that you're a null read on the balance is an improvement.
Why do you think Zdenek and bazinga were killed? Who would you have killed?
--PA
Not sure who I'd have killed. I'd have played D1 differently in that I'd have worked to push the Ghatokaca lynch, or at least not derail it. Which would have changed the landscape. Neighborize decisions would have been different; I'd have neighborized Mala off the bat to make it look like I was reaching out to her, which I know she likes. N2, notscience or Katsuki, N3 TT or notscience if not already neighborized. Although I'd have made a big deal out of soliciting Mala's input on the neighborize decision. Kill-wise, taking each day individually, I'd have killed Katsuki N2, that's obvious. N3, given claimed town power, probably just get TT out of the way, maximize town squabbling, minimize new info. Maybe notscience if I'd neighborized him N2, let him live N2 and kill him N3. Keeps the neighborhood under control.
Mina, that you're a null read on the balance is an improvement.
Why do you think Zdenek and bazinga were killed? Who would you have killed?
--PA
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In post 2873, Cabd wrote:In post 2862, Ampersand wrote:I think penguin's D1 push on BRO could have been partly for the same reasons bazinga gave: that they thought he might be an SK.That was day two. Fucking try again, thanks. Or perhaps you're trying to say we magically knew bazinga suspected BRO was an SK.... before they said so? (FTR, Bro-SK didn't even cross my mind, natirasha-scum's vig claim in we the purple did)In post 2872, Ampersand wrote:Maybe you didn't check page 2? (Yes - they posted more than a full page worth of posts on just Day 1.) Here it is: