Mini 1547 - Wicked Mafia (Game Over!)
Forum rules
Penguin, what about Mala seems town to you?
Malakittens, why do you refer to yourself as "lynchbait?" I got the opposite impression from your play in the only game we played together.
So far, I am getting townvibes from Mina. I don't think the gambit makes her town or scum, but I feel that her posts and analysis since then are advancing the gamestate, and the way she is giving out reads and questioning players feels genuine.
I dislike ToastyToast's 66. Toasty, if they are experienced players, would they not be comfortable putting themselves out there as scum?
~ F-16
Malakittens, why do you refer to yourself as "lynchbait?" I got the opposite impression from your play in the only game we played together.
So far, I am getting townvibes from Mina. I don't think the gambit makes her town or scum, but I feel that her posts and analysis since then are advancing the gamestate, and the way she is giving out reads and questioning players feels genuine.
I dislike ToastyToast's 66. Toasty, if they are experienced players, would they not be comfortable putting themselves out there as scum?
~ F-16
Why? This distinction seems arbitrary.In post 78, ToastyToast wrote:I see aggressive scum as hopping into an argument and starting shit, rather than creating one themselves.
~ F-16
I have a bunch of reads but I want to discuss with Nacho first to solidify. I think Mina is town. Not certain about anything else at this point.
Penguin, as I understand it, you were townreading Malakittens in Sixty's game where she was scum. Why the lack of uncertainty in your read. Can you summarize in your own words why you felt WIAC was town in that game and what Malakittens did here that she was unable to fake in that game?
~ F-16
Penguin, as I understand it, you were townreading Malakittens in Sixty's game where she was scum. Why the lack of uncertainty in your read. Can you summarize in your own words why you felt WIAC was town in that game and what Malakittens did here that she was unable to fake in that game?
~ F-16
That's a rather uncharitable interpretation of what I posted. I said that I had some reads but wasn't confident in any of them except my read on Mina, and that going through them with Nacho will help me refine them. I am not hiding anything. I've been open about my reads. I have one read so far which I am happy to discuss if you want.In post 298, Zdenek wrote:hiding behind being in a hydra to avoid giving reads, but what's a fox to do?
~ F-16
I don't really like this question at all. It was pretty obvious mollie was joking with calling you confscum (no real reason for you to be confscum so of course you're not confscum?); how would you respond if mollie was like "Mina, I'm 100% serious"?In post 16, Mina wrote:Mollie, how serious was your most recent post?
In post 38, Malakittens wrote:Can you explain why you aren't voting this confscum?
What interesting reactions did you get?In post 46, Mina wrote:also, I figured it'd get interesting reactions.
I'm really hoping you didn't try to open this game the same exact way you opened Marketplace because that would make me incredibly sad.
This doesn't seem like something that's characteristic coming from either of you.In post 63, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Man do I dislike votes without reasons.Talk to me. Is this your serious vote or your 'RVS'?
That's not what people say when they're lynching for being antitown.In post 74, Mina wrote:albeit in a "CLAIMING A GUILTY ON YOURSELF IS ANTITOWN POLICY LYNCH" way
Liking this, though.In post 74, Mina wrote:Also, ToastyToast, I'd TOTALLY put myself out this much as scum.
^scumIn post 79, notscience wrote:Don't mind me, just going to fluffpost until I get called scummy for it
yepIn post 105, chamber wrote:I really am an asshole in games these days, aren't I.
I don't think I ever remember seeing him post this much but I kinda like it.In post 150, notscience wrote:I've never been great at reading Bro. I kinda want to start a chamber wagon because this feels different than the chamber I've played with (town each time)
Because I've been busy as hell lately?In post 212, Mina wrote:Ghatokaca, why hasn't Nacho posted yet?
Do you think F-16 is less afraid to post as scum than I am?
Or that I'm afraid to post in general?
Does Cabd agree with this?In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:BRO isn't looking town to me here.
<3In post 221, bazinga wrote:oh hell no are you going to go after nacho for lack of posting. he has been busy
You don't think chamber should be able to read you?In post 228, Mina wrote:By the way, chamber, I'd find the fact your vote is still on me scummy if you weren't chamber. (That...wasn't intended as the insult it sounds like.)
I think you should probably make every single post and just keep us updated on CES's reads.In post 238, Ampersand wrote:CES thinks we should only make joint posts but I'm inclined to disagree
I generally understand that because I continue not to believe Bert.In post 266, bazinga wrote:her not realising that it was bert posting in spite of bert saying that he was posting at that time worries me like in a big way.
penguin actually looks surprisingly town hereIn post 274, bazinga wrote:I have a huge list of naughty people, not enough town reads, I want to put you in my town pile can you plz help me do that
Vote: osseus
I reached out to you re: penguin but the reach out didn't get any sort of response.In post 372, bazinga wrote:I always get slightly worried when you vote with me!
especially when there is no reach out
This is really all you need.In post 373, BROseidon wrote:T-Bone, can you link me a few of your most recent town games?
I am townreading Mala and scumreading the person I'm voting, which actually is a wonderful combination.In post 376, Hanzo_5 wrote:It would appear that you all are either splitting votes or not voting Malakittens because you are town-reading Malakittens. If you are town reading her, and it is not a gut reason, Do provide your analysis that lead to that conclusion. If you are not town-reading her please argue as to why your lynch candidate should take precidence.
fear is no answerIn post 384, bazinga wrote:nacho's catchup post is awful but I am too chickenshit to go after him but I am really sus of any1 who thinks that was town nacho in any way. like that was srsly scumnacho posting
let the heart dictate your moves
lest the mind prevails
We are still in the process of discussing them. We haven't hashed out all of them. Nacho disagrees with me on Mina so we still need to work it out. I think Medea is town and Nacho agrees with me. Malakittens reads gut-town. Penguin is town for defending Malakittens so blatantly. I feel that if Malakittens was town heading on the freeway to a mislynch, I think Penguin's optimal scum move would be to fake paranoia and uncertainty and allow Malakittens to get lynched securing a mislynch with minimal damage to her towncred. If Penguin as scum townreads Malakittens confidently, she is also liable to face suspicion from people who would wonder where the confidence came from after a Mala-Cabd hydra fooled her in Pinnipedum which was what I initially wondered. Her response makes a lot of sense from a town POV. Mala as town may also be paranoid of Penguin which makes buddying attempts worthless. To cap it all off, she would prevent a mislynch and make it that much more difficult for her scumteam to win. Penguin as scum is smart enough to know when to be paranoid and what is expected of her. That she is not confirming to expectations and throwing them all out the window feels like a very town thing to do. Nacho adds that Penguin being so engaged this early in the game points to her being town whereas he characterizes scum Penguin's early game as very under the radar. I tend to agree since Penguin doesn't usually get very aggressive as scum until later on in the game. The other possibility (Mala-Medea scumteam) is also unlikely considering Penguin's blatant defense and I don't feel that their interactions are scum-scum. Furthermore, I skimmed a Penguin game with BROseidon where BRO says that he expects scum-Penguin to attack him because she can out-argue him. I believe if Penguin was scum and BRO-town, she would stay the hell away from attacking BRO because she knows that would ping his scumdar hard. Penguin as scum also tries to attack in a way that won't make her many enemies. In Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, she stayed away from attacking ArcAngel9 because AA9 could obvtown herself. She did attack BRO and get him mislynched but that was before BRO and Penguin got to know each other so well. From what I know of Penguin, I don't believe 217 came from scum. Penguin attacking and defending people with reckless abandon here points massively in the direction of Medea being town.
~ F-16
~ F-16
You are approaching this the wrong way (and a really narrow minded way). You think the reason someone disagrees with a scumread of yours is that they too are scum. Here's a more likely scenario: You are wrong. I am right. If you are town, open your mind and drop this junk push.
To your credit, at least I didn't a whiteknighting accusation thrown my way which usually happens when I tell bad players that their push is shit.
~ F-16
To your credit, at least I didn't a whiteknighting accusation thrown my way which usually happens when I tell bad players that their push is shit.
~ F-16
Okay, you must have misunderstood. If you read closely my argument isn't on the lines of Penguin being too good as scum to be scum in this game.
In general, it is easy to do what is expected from a meta-level as scum. I for instance tend to do what is expected of me when I am scum. For example, I played a game with Nacho where we were both town. I scumread him hard and voted him in LYLO losing the game. I later replaced into a game in LYLO where I was scum and Nacho was town. I hesitated to scumread him and spent a ton of time trying to see his side for fear of scumreading him wrongly again. The general concept I am putting forth is that players know how they are expected to act when they are scum. The natural course of action is to confirm to these expectations to not ping scum radars. There is very little reason Penguin as scum would defend town-Mala so brazenly. She is going to get raised eyebrows targeted at her, potentially derail a mislynch and be the target of immense paranoia. On the other hand, scumreading Mala or expressing uncertainty would be something that lets her fly below the radar and fulfill her scum wincon effectively. There is extremely little risk and extremely small reward. I know for instance I wouldn't even have thought twice about it if she expressed Mala paranoia or deferred the Mala read to Cabd. Her actions places unnecessary attention to herself while making a scumwin for her more difficult.
~ F-16
In general, it is easy to do what is expected from a meta-level as scum. I for instance tend to do what is expected of me when I am scum. For example, I played a game with Nacho where we were both town. I scumread him hard and voted him in LYLO losing the game. I later replaced into a game in LYLO where I was scum and Nacho was town. I hesitated to scumread him and spent a ton of time trying to see his side for fear of scumreading him wrongly again. The general concept I am putting forth is that players know how they are expected to act when they are scum. The natural course of action is to confirm to these expectations to not ping scum radars. There is very little reason Penguin as scum would defend town-Mala so brazenly. She is going to get raised eyebrows targeted at her, potentially derail a mislynch and be the target of immense paranoia. On the other hand, scumreading Mala or expressing uncertainty would be something that lets her fly below the radar and fulfill her scum wincon effectively. There is extremely little risk and extremely small reward. I know for instance I wouldn't even have thought twice about it if she expressed Mala paranoia or deferred the Mala read to Cabd. Her actions places unnecessary attention to herself while making a scumwin for her more difficult.
~ F-16
I am focussing on Medea first. I think they are town. I'll develop reads on everyone else as we go along. Mala feels town. I don't have much else to back it up but Nacho's played with her a lot and between the two of us, we'll develop a solid read on her. As for her lack of paranoia, perhaps she is relieved that Penguin came to her defense, perhaps she sees what I see, or perhaps she doesn't want to open hostilities with someone she can work with so quickly in the game, or perhaps I am wrong and she is scum.
~ F-16
~ F-16
I did consider the reasons Medea could do it as scum and found those nuances unlikely. The one explanation I can think of in the Mala-town scenario is if she wants to buddy with Mala and Cabd. I think it is much less likely than Penguin being town for the reasons I provided. With Mala, my read is less developed. Do you still believe Medea is scum in light of the analysis I provided?
~ F-16
~ F-16
You are generalizing the argument way too much while missing the specifics. I agree that there are benefits as scum to town-reading players. I explained why that it is unlikely in
Penguin starts off post 55 saying that Mala is as town as she has ever seen her. This is a strong confident read. There are no qualifications or footnotes. No worry about people questioning her confidence in light of having been burned before. Her push on BRO is also unrestrained with phrases like "
~ F-16
this
scenario.Penguin starts off post 55 saying that Mala is as town as she has ever seen her. This is a strong confident read. There are no qualifications or footnotes. No worry about people questioning her confidence in light of having been burned before. Her push on BRO is also unrestrained with phrases like "
please tell me you are joking BRO. You are better than that
" and "Your Mala case is lousy
." It is an attempt to see the side of someone she is familiar with while being incredulous of their opinion. It is a feeling of "I know you well and I want you to be town but seriously?
" kind of thought process. I find it extremely genuine.~ F-16
Oh, look at that! It seems to be a *gasp* contradiction!In post 421, Zdenek wrote:In post 420, Ghatokaca wrote:Her push on BRO is also unrestrainedWell well wellIn post 420, Ghatokaca wrote:It is a feeling of "I know you well and I want you to be town but seriously?" kind of thought process.
Not you. I was referring to Zdenek mostly. If I have to decide whether someone is bad enough of a scumhunter to think that "contradictions" which are actually they misunderstood are scummy, or whether they are scum not scumhunting deeply enough, it is a little annoying. Same with the "people that disagree with me are scum" mentality. Chamber's naked votes don't help either.
~ F-16
~ F-16
Here's the problem I have with your play: you are not considering the possibility of Medea being town and me being right. You are assuming that one or both of us has to be scum and everything you do is geared toward "refuting" what I say as opposed to understanding my analysis. I'll give another chance to read my posts and figure it out on your own. If you genuinely misunderstood it, I'll re-explain it for you.
~ F-16
~ F-16
In post 435, Zdenek wrote:Cause the comment in the first quote about attacking and defending with reckless abandon is a pretty good town tell.
The problem is that I am not seeing it in PA's play, and you seem to be unable to explain that observation.
Defending
:In post 55, Medea the Alien wrote:Mala's about as town as I've ever seen her.
In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:Your Mala case is lousy. Town-Mala was going to bat for someone she knows well in terms of jumping on Hanzo's bazinga vote; as I said above, scum-Mala would have let it slide.
In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:Also, as far as Mala jumping on Hanzo for hating on the hydras goes, if we needed any further proof that this is town-Mala, scum-Mala wouldn't be trying to derail anything that might eliminate hydras with players she would fear could read her, namely mollie among others.
---In post 259, Medea the Alien wrote:Believe what you like; scum-Mala's instinct isn't to help people she worries about in my experience.
I pointed it out here. This also applies to the other three snippets that I quoted. That's why I asked you to go back and re-read. I want you to explain how you missed it.In post 420, Ghatokaca wrote:Penguin starts off post 55 saying that Mala is as town as she has ever seen her. This is a strong confident read. There are no qualifications or footnotes. No worry about people questioning her confidence in light of having been burned before.
Attacking
:
This is a push on BRO with conviction in her own position. She doesn't morph her reads to fit with BRO's or weaken her position. She doesn't expect BRO to post what she believes is a lousy case and is incredulous that he did it. She expects BRO to match her expectations of what BRO would do and is alarmed when he doesn't.In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:Please tell me you're joking BRO; you're better than that. Do you seriously believe that 'mollie' playing into Mina's self-investigation jest in the first 10 game posts is the same thing as her trying to soft-push people?
Your Mala case is lousy. Town-Mala was going to bat for someone she knows well in terms of jumping on Hanzo's bazinga vote; as I said above, scum-Mala would have let it slide.
~ F-16
I like Mala-fervor early game, and I additionally like her caution in reading PA and mollie because it is, at the very least, not falling into the quick sorting trap that usually comes from Mala-scum. I like Mala being a little overly defensive of mollie early, and her freaking out about Bert mindgames + posting a hell of a lot more than she usually does while being frustrated by her performances in other games seems pretty good. I really really like early concern with mollie being passive, yeah it's a bit early to expect the towniness to happen, but the actual real concern over mollie's slot feels a hell of a lot better than a little bit of faked paranoia. I like the way she responds to Zdenek telling her to vote Cabd; it has all the makings of a good "I told you what you needed to know already, listen" dismissiveness. I also agree that Mala's big scumtell is that she tends to get quiet when people push her and she's a big wagon; one of the things that impressed me most about her in Olympian when I was scum against her was how well she handled Wisdom's continued tunneling of her as opposed to elsewhere.In post 376, Hanzo_5 wrote:Can we get more pressure on the Malakittens wagon? It would appear that you all are either splitting votes or not voting Malakittens because you are town-reading Malakittens. If you are town reading her, and it is not a gut reason, Do provide your analysis that lead to that conclusion. If you are not town-reading her please argue as to why your lynch candidate should take precidence.
As for Osseus:
It was page 1, or page 2 when this comment was made, and it was an expression of dislike for an unexplained vote in the RVS. Neither T-Bone or UT are the types of players to get sticks up their asses this early, and I feel like T-Bone is the player that doesn't quite sound like himself when he's posting as scum.In post 63, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Man do I dislike votes without reasons. Talk to me. Is this your serious vote or your 'RVS'?
His interactions with Hanzo/Toasty also feel like empty interactions with mislynches that he's just warming up; he individually went after them both pretty hard, but didn't actually end up pursuing either.
UT's initial reads list seemed like he was just throwing darts and isn't very good at darts, but my main problem with that whole initial interaction was how quickly he backed down from them: when questioned on it, he responded with "oh they're just my gut reads don't kill my vibe" instead of any actual reasoning or anything that showed any small bit of the conviction that town UT seems to have in spades. UT's response to being suspected on meta reasons was even worse; his initial response was "oh those games were old" and then he followed it up with "oh you need more than one data point" which again, strikes me as a different way from how town UT would respond to an argument against him and are generally scummy as shit ways to respond in general, considering he was scumreading bazinga at that point, apparently.
Why does this matter?In post 394, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Then you have the AUDACITY to link to our last game together (where I was town and you weren't)
That was because she switched from a strong primary suspect to a different person for absolutely no reason.In post 394, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:where I come right into the game and among other things read ETL as scum for CHANGING VOTES WITHOUT REASONS.
It's a bit different than a naked vote on page 2, don't you think?
In post 419, Zdenek wrote:I am definitely not seeing the aggression from PA that you are seeing. What are you thinking of when you say that she is attacking and defending people with reckless abandon?
Spoiler: PA's first 5 posts
Spoiler: Penguin first 5 posts as scum in FEA
As town, penguin is one of those people that I default mislynch when I'm scum against her because she has the tendency to lurk so incredibly hard and miss out on early game when people are forming their all-important first impressions. She is eloquent, doesn't mind making big posts, though, so the way that she normally coasts as scum is by avoiding stepping on too many toes early game, lurk to mid game, and then post more regularly when major threats are dead and she's kept around because she's a major voice of reason. This penguin isn't that penguin. I realize there's not as many outward examples of aggression in her posts as there would be other people, but penguin's not an aggressive player. The fact that there are so many signs that she's trying to figure people out is a pretty great one, especially who she's hydraing with: if they were scum, Cabd would happily take the lead and no one would really question it because penguin's a lurker. But penguin very distinctly took the lead here and is guiding the game forward in a way I haven't seen her do in many town games, let alone a scum one.
Which ones? The majority of our posts seem to be disagreeing with the approach that you've taken to the game so far, if I remember Falcon's posts correctly.In post 423, Mina wrote:Some posts of theirs hit the right notes,
Also, why did you like Fenchurch's post so much? I mean sure, it's a hell of a lot better reading alignment through Fenchurch's posting than through CES's, but nothing in the post or 2 that Fenchurch has put forward so far really seems amazing enough for any sort of confident townread on the slot.
In that game you were obviously town, Wisdom was obviously wrong on you, and I knew that his scumread on me + me bothering him about my townread on you would fuel him to attack you more. In this game, you're pretty obviously town and a lot of people recognize that already, so it's not like my defending of you is going to get you on my side or aggravate anyone else into attacking you anymore.In post 445, Malakittens wrote:On a random note the one thing that is bothering me about Nacho is that he's defending me. He did a similar thing in OGM and it didn't unnerve me until day 2 where I then died with a guilty on him. I disregarded it in OGM because town-nacho has a tendency to defend me also, but it wasn't as blunt so to speak. I'm probably going to need a bit more time in reading him because I have actually recently noticed a pattern in tryin to tell scum nacho from town nacho. And I want to see where he falls during this game.
Meta is one aspect of a read on a player. It is a method of scumhunting that some people prefer more than other methods of scumhunting; it isn't townie or scummy in and of itself and it also doesn't depend on players not changing their behavior from game to game; it is nothing more than added context to the behavior that they're demonstrating in this game. You've played more than 1 game back in 2005, so you know that meta is something that actually happens a lot and isn't actually scummy, so I don't know what you're trying to get out of this.In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:To me, this boils down to a player hiding being meta-reads in order to try to look like they are scumhunting. Like, this is really bad. Terribly bad even. He's reading Medea as town but has nothing from THIS game to support it? This is an example of why I don't put much stock into meta-reads because it's really easy for scum to do some leg work for meta-reads to look like town, because so many players use meta-reads. F-16, independent of this game, do you believe that players in general don't change their behavior from game to game?
When responding to Mina's fake guiltyIn post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:#1 - Ummm no we were pretty much out of RVS when people started reacting to Mina's fakeclaim and Hanzo's vote. It's nice that you can pull a quote without understanding the context. It's also nice that I have a 'stick up my ass' over a single question, that pretty much never got addressed. Did I continue to press Ampersand over that vote? No.
on herself
and while responding to Hanzo's vote on a hydra for being a hydra. There were not too many relevant things that happened at that point. Why does you not pushing Ampersand over that vote somehow make your initial push better?In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:You're really good at pulling out individual quotes out of context. It's funny how you break up the entire statement into two quotes.
Because we're talking about someone shifting reads for no real explanation when the game is already well underway, reads are already formed and solidified versus a situation where people are talking about fake guilties on themselves and voting "because hydra".In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:I don't understand what makes you think these two situations are different. Because the set-up is different? The principle of what's going on (votes without reasons/change in votes without reasons) is still the same, yet you're fixating on this as if I've never done anything like this before.
As town, penguin is lurky.In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:So for those playing at home, if I'm reading this correctly, as town she has a tendency to lurk and miss the early game, so as scum she can emulate that town behavior
As scum, penguin capitalizes on her normally lurky behaviors in order to coast.
This game, penguin is not lurky or coasty and is not hiding behind a scum partner with a strong preference for scum despite her not really having that same strong preference for scum. Her early play is the absolute opposite of her normal scum play, thus she is more likely to be town.
When people lurk as scum, they lurk for some combination of three reasons. They lurk because they're uncomfortable, they lurk because they don't have time, or they lurk because they believe it brings them a strategic benefit. Penguin as scum would be uncomfortable in this playerlist. She has managed to snow a lot of us before, yes, but we also are all pretty decently familiar with her meta, we all read her in radically different ways, we all have pretty good accuracy in reading her. This creates an atmosphere where she would be uncomfortable as scum, but her early game aggression is the opposite of that. It does make sense for her to be comfortable in an environment where there are a lot of players she's familiar with, a lot of sounding boards she can scumhunt with, and it does make sense for her to show she has something to prove as town in this specific situation.In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Because you expect scumPA to emulate her lurking town meta? I don't see how her being aggressive this game has ANYTHING to do with her typically being a passive lurker.
What have I misrepresented? The closest thing I see to misrepresenting you is the you attacking people for voting without reasons business and I don't really think that qualifies.In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Plus I feel Nacho is completely misrepresenting what's going on with me.
Being active for Mala is a function of how comfortable she is. She's scared of mollie as scum, she's scared of me as scum, she's scared of Cabd as scum. Yet, she has been active, posting, loose. That's a good sign.In post 452, Hanzo_5 wrote:1)I agree that Malakittens was active early games.However, what about "being active" early is indicative of alignment?
She's townreading both of them, but in both reads, there's an element of paranoia behind them: by quick sorting someone, I mean calling someone town and then leaving them as town without seeming to actually go through any work to develop these reads/doubt these reads (it's mollie's #1 scumtell in Skype!).In post 452, Hanzo_5 wrote:2)I have to disagree completely with this point. Post 239 clearly establishes that Malakittens is town-reading both Bazinga and Medea the Alien. Furthermore, on page 4 post 82 she admits to town reading Bazinga. I see this as quick sorting. Admittedly more Bazinga than Medea the Alien
I liked it because it was a moment of paranoia where Mala doubted her read on the slot based on being fooled by Bert; scum do have a tendency to adopt what reads other's think they should have, and a sign of that is being faced with new information and then warping your read around that new information instead of actually taking the information in. That didn't happen here.In post 452, Hanzo_5 wrote:4)I agree that not liking anti-town actions is a town tell. However, I do not think this is a strong town tell. Dislike of anti-town activity is a weak tell because, both mafia and town can dislike it while still being alignment motivated but, encouraging anti-town activity is scummy.
Mala is one of those players who lurks when she's uncomfortable. It takes a certain amount of mental fortitude to continue posting with conviction and continue making strong posts when people are attacking you and supposedly have caught onto you when scum, and I don't think that she has the fortitude while scum quite yet. So it's not a case of "Mala knows that this is a scumtell of hers so all she has to do is stop doing it" and more of a case of "this is a flaw in Mala's scumgame that she's aware of and trying to fix but hasn't quite fixed yet".In post 452, Hanzo_5 wrote:7)This is a meta argument, inherently it is a WIFOM argument. I could easily spin this to "Malakittens knows that is her scumtell and is not doing it there fore she is scum".
What passage are you talking about here?In post 452, Hanzo_5 wrote:@Nacho head, was the passage i quoted you? Let us pretend Mollie is a solo player and not a Hydra for my next question. If you were reading her independent of bert how would you be reading her so far?
If Mollie was a solo player and not a hydra, I'd be reading her as town for meta reasons. My read on that hydra will mostly be dictated by my read on her anyways, so it's like I'm reading them solo.
In post 454, Zdenek wrote:I think it is ridiculous to compare PA's first 5 posts in this game where she is posting as part of a hydra from page 1, with her first five posts in a game where she playing solo posting from page 173. I understand that there is a difference, but the fact that you are concluding that it's because of a difference in alignments is insane.
Spoiler: penguin's first 5 posts in a Mini Theme
Spoiler: Penguin's first 5 posts in another Mini Theme
I just want to emphasize that when we talk about penguin being aggressive as hell in attacking and defending, it's a relative aggression that isn't usually present in her game. I can very easily see the reasons why she would be more aggressive than usual as town, but there's a lot of reasons why that aggression wouldn't make sense as scum. For one, you noted that she's in a hydra. Her partner is a better scum player than she is. Her style generally involves a lot of lurking and not much involvement early game as either alignment. Why not hang back as per the usual?
It's also a strong towntell for you.In post 454, Zdenek wrote:So why is this a town-tell for Medea, but not for me?
Zdenek
, I am concerned that you are handwaving away arguments and missing a lot of things in my posts to oversimplify arguments. You are also not being discerning in your reads or going back to verify evidence. I am also serious about my question in 438. When I asked you to re-read, how did you miss the posts where I explained things that you asked for? While I am glad you are waiting and willing to hear my analysis, I'd appreciate it more if you put more of an effort to work with me. Tell me where you are at with your Medea read. Is what I am saying making sense to you? Is there anything new you want to bring to my attention? I am happy to answer your questions if it will help you sort me but I need you to explain where you are coming from as opposed to brush aside what I am saying. To answer why I don't have a townread on you, the way you and Penguin held your position is vastly different. The background is different. The expectations are different. Penguin expecting BRO to see her side is reasonable because she has experience with BRO. The way she approached him felt open, natural and genuine. The way you are approaching my analysis was closed, and unchanging. For example, Compare this
:
In post 217, Medea the Alien wrote:Please tell me you're joking BRO; you're better than that. Do you seriously believe that 'mollie' playing into Mina's self-investigation jest in the first 10 game posts is the same thing as her trying to soft-push people?
Your Mala case is lousy. Town-Mala was going to bat for someone she knows well in terms of jumping on Hanzo's bazinga vote; as I said above, scum-Mala would have let it slide.
With these
:
No engagement. Quote of an isolated sentence which wasn't meant to be read in isolation but as part of a larger wall. No request for elaboration and no explanation of precisely where you disagree. Just a throwaway comment that doesn't serve to advance the game.In post 410, Zdenek wrote:Am I the only person who wants to lynch Medea and then instantly lynch Ghatakaca if Medea flips scum after reading this?In post 408, Ghatokaca wrote:Penguin as scum is smart enough to know when to be paranoid and what is expected of her. That she is not confirming to expectations and throwing them all out the window feels like a very town thing to do.
That isn't what I said. An uncharitable interpretation although I can forgive this as a misunderstanding. But when you misunderstand half the things I say, I am left wondering whether you have aIn post 413, Zdenek wrote:I don't care that you disagree with me.In post 412, Ghatokaca wrote:You are approaching this the wrong way (and a really narrow minded way). You think the reason someone disagrees with a scumread of yours is that they too are scum.
You're arguing that Penguin is town since as scum she is smart enough to do what is expected of her as scum, but isn't conforming to those expectations.
desire
to understand at all.Cabd
, I'd love to go over Zdenek's meta with you once I read through his games to get a handle on it. As for Osseus, I haven't yet observed anything that is slam-dunk yet but Nacho is sure he is playing to his scumgame so we are taking some time to sync up on that read. That's also something I want to go over later on this game day.Chamber
, I didn't explain the "contradiction" to Zdenek because he didn't ask for it but I'll explain it since you are curious. I said Penguin was unrestrained in her push on BRO because she didn't hold back on calling his Mala-case lousy or attempt to walk around eggshells in any way. She did however speak to him in a way that expressed an implicit desire that he would see sense and possibly hoped that he was town. The "seriously" felt like a reachout. The idea I presented is that her push on BRO was strong even while it seemed like she hoped he would see her side. It wasn't a "lynch BRO now, I refuse to see him as town" unrestrained but strong enough that she wasn't being hesitant about it.~ F-16
In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:You're really good at pulling out individual quotes out of context.It's funny how you break up the entire statement into two quotes.
In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:It's interesting because what I was getting from F-16 is that he doesn't expect PA's behavior to change. He expects a certain aggression coming from a townPA, and Nacho expects PA to lurk as town so she could emulate this behavior as scum.
In post 447, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Plus I feel Nacho is completely misrepresenting what's going on with me.
In post 339, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:also two OLD games don't really establish meta so maybe hold back on trying that tactic?
It isn't. I want to show how much you've stepped up your game compared to your usual game, and why I think that such a step up in aggression is much more likely town-you than scum-you.In post 469, Medea the Alien wrote:Not sure it's relevant to your point, Nacho, but both the Mini Theme games you quoted were town-me. I think my most recent Mini Themes as scum were Mini 1482 and Mini 1477; I'd quote, but they're locked.
--PA
if i'm made a martyr and freed from this horrible game, then i'll consider it a win in my booksIn post 478, notscience wrote:inb4 modkillIn post 477, Ghatokaca wrote:wow, gj tammy, i'm sure you're really freaking proud of yourself huh???
What do you think of osseus scrutinizing both Ampersand's RVS vote as well as yours?In post 483, Hanzo_5 wrote:It is scummy to scrutinize RVS votes.
A little bit, yeah.In post 483, Hanzo_5 wrote:onsidering that is how you are reading Bazinga, would you say mollie is being passive this game?
Additionally, now that you have said that she is weary of you and others. I need to find a way to prove this otherwise i may just be being biased but, I feel like she is posting less, and less the more I am getting more people to speak about her. What do you think of my thoughts?
But I don't think her passivity is relative to how much people talk about her and I think that a lot of the angles that she's decided to take are pretty aggressive against players with a lot of swing in this playerlist. Would you disagree with that?
The one I asked you in 439.In post 499, Zdenek wrote:If it's the question about Medea, I still think that she is scummy. Though at this point I doubt that they are scum with you. If it's a different question you'll have to remind me.
You also said you find Medea scum in your latest post but null in the previous one. Clarify this. Are you genuinely developing this read or is it just some "I think you are both scum but not scum together" type-read.
I just explained to you why you are misinterpreting it. You pulled a quote out of context. It is not meant to be read out of context. Read it in context again and explain to me why you disagree with it. I'll be waiting.In post 497, Zdenek wrote:If you can't read the sentence I pointed out and immediately see what is wrong with it, you have no business criticizing my play. F-16, I want you to explain in detail how this misrepresented your position.
408, 414, 420, 439.In post 497, Zdenek wrote:What evidence are you think I am failing to go back and look at?
I explained why they are in 439. Why do you disagree?In post 497, Zdenek wrote:Medea is attacking and defending with reckless abandon just looks insane when you point out one player, Mala, who she's defending and one player Bro, who she is attacking. Her attacks on Bro are anything but reckless.
~ F-16
How does explaining a read constitute disguising it?In post 534, ToastyToast wrote:then just say this instead of disguising it in a long paragraph of "no one wants to read this" or giving examples for an idea most people already support. This isn't really an alignment thing, but your posts feel fluffed up and I thus always want to skip them.
They were.In post 534, ToastyToast wrote:I don't see this in Zdenek's game. Disagreements on reads are often a starting point for the creation of a scumread, but its not like his cases are limited to this?
No, it is the other way around. He thinks I am scum because I disagree with him. I don't have a read on him yet.In post 534, ToastyToast wrote:It sounds to me that because Zdenek disagrees with you, you think he's scum. lol. This is kind of how mafia is played. Obviously if someone thinks your scum, they are going to be more critical of the moves you make. Its impossible to play without bias.
~ F-16
And ToastyToast, meta is an incredibly useful tool to scumhunt with. It gives you a baseline on what to expect from someone, what their town and scum play is like, how react to pressure, how they scumhunt, and what their activity is like as both affiliations. Most non-meta reads that people develop tend to have too many non-alignment indicative tells that are actually playstyle-based as opposed to affiliation based. A lot of common "scumtells" that people tend to use fall under the same category. Meta can be used incorrectly but that only applies to people who don't know how to use meta. Nearly all of the time except once that I've used an extensive meta-dive to develop a read on a player, I've been right. It can be invaluable if you know how to use it.
~ F-16
~ F-16
Toasty was discounting meta. I was arguing against it. That's not what I said we were being transparent about, but in general.In post 542, chamber wrote:Like this. Who the fuck cares? Its transparent but that's because its mafia theory not game relevant.
~ F-16
i mean i agree with you completely that bazinga is town as fuck but why do you think so?In post 494, ToastyToast wrote:No one cares about your #hydraproblemsrexuses. Also you think bazinga is scum?! really?
get used to that feeling of disappointment, zdenekIn post 505, Zdenek wrote:
In post 512, Hanzo_5 wrote:@Ghatokaca, I disagree, I think you are scum now.
why?
of course you don't tammyIn post 522, Malakittens wrote:~I have no idea how to actually fix it, sorry~
In post 527, Mina wrote:@Nacho: what I liked is mostly just the tone and her references to their out-of-hydra talk
that's pretty lame
like a strong townread on what would be a prominent mislynch target otherwise?In post 540, chamber wrote:You are being transparent about things that don't matter.
or perhaps the strong townread that we're totally being pretty incredibly transparent about...?
(((mollie)))In post 545, bazinga wrote:DO YOU HEAR ME NACHO YOU ARE NOT PAYING AS MUCH ATTENTION TO ME AS I WOULD LIKE BUT I GOT YOUR PSYCHIC MESSAGES ARE YOU HAPPY???? CAN YOU PLZ PAY ATTENTION TO ME NOW!!!
i agree with that.In post 545, bazinga wrote:like how about we 3 discuss burnt toast I found his town read on us to come out of nowhere and pretty suspicious.
i will admit that i have skimmed toasty's walls pretty heavily, but falcon and i are working on solidifying reads and will hopefully have a nice shiny reads list for you and the alien soon. i currently only have time/mindstate to prod, the smart part of my brain that handles all the analysis is sort of dead in the water for the moment.
this sounds like a pretty decent reason to vote the ossy hydra.In post 554, Malakittens wrote:I'm actually having trouble reading the Ossy hydra. (Ugh Mollie your nicknames are catchy ._.)
I legit don't know why, but every time I read a post it does nothing. No gut feel, just a numb feeling.
I have trouble reading Toasty; I've played with him in a few games, but in the last two, one of them I spent the better part of 6 game days trying to lynch him, and in the other he was paranoid as hell early and thus town as fuck early. Here, I thought that #235 was actually pretty genuine and looked town ("my read isn't meaningless, it's HONEST"), and the townread is pretty sketchy as hell, but I do think that Bert has a way of getting people to read him as town by gut as long as they don't let logic get in the way.In post 555, bazinga wrote:I agree with all of that from the little I have been able to absorb from his posts. after I read them I can seem to remember a thing he said. I have a different angle in that we haven't engaged and I saw no discernible reason to have us as town with what he has so far since we have not engaged. at all. we are not an easy player to read unless I town it the fuck up in loads of mollie walls and emo meltdowns and start bossing every1 around and then whines when no1 does what I want them to. most players who don't know me tend to scum read me until I do this. I haven't done it this game, I have defo taken a backseat and it is strange how no1 but you has really made a thing about this.
She's one of three players on site that I'm afraid of as scum because of familiarity with my meta.In post 561, chamber wrote:Is Mollie especially good at reading nacho? If so, how good, what sample size?In post 560, notscience wrote:Plus if it doesn't have the mollie seal of approval it's not worth my time
I leaned scum on you earlier in the game because your tone is a strange as hell, but I have a decent townread on you now. I think that while I've seen you feel a lot more natural in the past, your adjustment in play feels a lot more like a conscious effort to be able to see the bigger picture as opposed to you being completely unaware of how completely different you sound. I don't mind your read on me being tied to how I'm reading you; that's the case for a lot of people that I play with and I think it's pretty natural.In post 585, Hanzo_5 wrote:What is your read of me? What do you think of the fact that part of my read on you is tied to how you are reading me?
I'm still sad Faraday replaced outIn post 620, Mina wrote:I'm still bitter over Muffin's MS Paint drawing.
@ Mollie, I haven't been posting because Nacho and I are trying to compile a reads-list so we could work that out with you. This was mostly in response to your wanting to work with us. Sorry about disappearing but I actually haven't. I am re-reading the game and offering thoughts to Nacho and refining our reads so we could come up with something good. I missed the meta-case you expected us to respond to. Can you point me to it?
~ F-16
~ F-16
I am developing my reads and I am happy to give them to you if you want. But those will be my reads only and not Nacho's. Actually that might be a pretty good idea if I can use you to bounce thoughts off of while Nacho isn't here. I am thinking he'll show up over the weekend and we will refine those thoughts.In post 765, bazinga wrote:UNVOTE: UNVOTE:
the vote didn't do what I had hoped and I know nacho is IRL busy but this will only hold off for so long
@ f16 of ghatty things
just because you are waiting on nacho doesn't mean you can't still scumhunt. right now it kind of looks like you are trying to curl into the woodworks and hope nobody notices you now that the heat has been turned off.
~ F-16
TOWN+
1. Medea The Alien
- Strongest townread for reasons mentioned in 408, 414, 420, 439, 444, 457, and 467.2. malakittens
- Mala felt town initially and she looked very comfortable in her beginning posts in RVS and her reference to herself as lynchbait because she felt she played badly recently felt extremely genuine and it seemed like she really wanted to give more of an effort in this game. Her later play didn't disappoint and her initiating a discussion with Mollie in 84 about Medea felt pro-active and town-motivated. I also really like her push on NotScience to engage fully with the game as the last time I've played with her in Micro 254, she pinned NotScience as scum fairly early on in the game and her concern about NotScience echoed my own as some of NotScience's early play seemed similar to his lurkish scum play in the game I played with Mala and NotScience. The conviction in her response to BROseidon in 134 and the straightforward justification of her actions felt very real and her approach in 239 to her read on Toasty ("He seems to be focusing a lot on Mina only, but want to check to see if that's true or my mind is adding things that aren't really there
") was incredibly genuine and I just can't see Mala as scum not double-checking what she was doing before throwing out reads as scum while simultaneously admitting that she needed to verify her thoughts. Her unprompted willingness to discuss her reads with Medea in the thorough and meticulous way that she has done in 521 is far more likely to come from town and I can see a clear overarching motivation of Malakittens wanting to make amends for previous games where she believes she played suboptimally by putting in the extra effort to scumhunt. I would be very, very surprised if Malakittens flipped scum.3. Bazinga (pirate mollie +Bert)
- I have a fairly strong townread on Bazinga and I get a lot of town-Bert vibes from his later posts. His posts about Zdenek in 172 are the sort of critical thinking posts that Bert finds difficult to fake as scum and I really like his probing of ToastyToast in 346. I also felt the townread on Hanzo combined with the exasperation felt very genuine. His 517 is exactly the type of subdued paranoia which is incredibly difficult to fake for him as scum and the feeling that he is not saying everything on his mind but wants to stop people making erroneous conclusions is something I associate with town-Bert that which he hasn't been able to fake at all in the last scumgame I played with him. I like the natural way in which PirateMollie started taking the lead and trying to reach out to various players to reach a concensus and it feels very similar to what I know of her town-meta from Mini 1516 and very different from the half-hearted way she did it Mini 1524. I felt that the differences were very stark and I'd be very surprised if she could make such a dramatic meta-shift as scum and I think it is highly likely that this slot is town. I also felt the hesitance in scumread us made a lot of sense in light of the Too Many Heads game where Mollie incorrectly scumread Nacho and it was something that could be exploited incredibly easily with Mollie showing hesitance in reading us citing that past mistake while other people wagoned us. The way she put her foot down initially made me fairly certain that they were town.TOWN
4. Mina
- I have a decent townread on Mina. I like the way she initially moved on from her gambit into discussing reads and posting analysis in 46 based on the discussion that ensued. Her responses to Chamber in 51 coupled with her moving onto more general analysis on the rest of the game felt very discerning and it seemed like she didn't just want to produce content but was carefully filtering the type of content to what would help her solve the game as opposed to getting distracted with a 1v1 argument with Chamber and it really reminds me of how I as town try to shut someone who is tunneling out to focus on the rest of the game. I dislike 335 and 338 because it seemed as though she was telling UT what his gut should be like which is somewhat ridiculous, and I also find that contrary opinions that don't go with the flow are much, much more likely to come from town than scum. I do feel that the "CES shouldn't have such a strong townread on me" in 693 felt really town and the kind of thing I expect to see from people who pride themselves on their scumgames although I personally dislike those sort of reads which feel as though they are underestimating the townhunting abilities of the players they are directing it to and puts me off when it is directed at me since I pride myself on my towngame. But I feel that Mina would be less likely to subtly play up her scumgame when she is scum. There are also a lot of little things like the willingness to re-evaluate Malakittens and then coming back to thinking she is town in 724 that feel like she is genuinely trying to figure out the game and staying away from shoehorning reads. 5. notscience
- I have a moderate townread on NotScience. He comes across as not caring about his image and isn't restrained at all especially compared with Micro 254 where he is a lot more awkward and restrained as scum. I like his easy demeanor at the beginning of the game especially in 69 and 79 and his smooth movement into developing reads in 92. I agree with his Osseus and BRO votes and his flippant responses to Hanzo were very unlike the cautious attacks I've seen him make in Micro 254. The one thing that makes me a little unsure is that the amount of stock he set in Mollie's townread on Nacho while reading our slot to the point where he is prepared to lynch or not lynch according to Mollie's read as opposed to attempt to read us himself and incorporate that into Mollie's read but I am unsure whether this is town laziness or scum wanting to pass the blame. The overt nature of his sheeping Mollie and lack of subtlety makes me lean towards town. 6. hanzo_5
- While I disagree with lot of Hanzo's stances, there is a certain mechanical way that he is approaching his reads which feels extremely consistent. I also feel the persistence of his questioning and insistence on following almost all of his lines of reasoning to their conclusions is much more likely town than scum. Cabd, I looked through Newbie 1369 to see if his play is easily fake-able for him as scum and the different is pretty significant. The biggest thing I noticed was that his questions in his scumgame lacked the thoroughness and conviction that he has in this game and his questioning seemed much, much more shallow often focussing on superficial things and the amount of content he provides is also much less than he does here and he doesn't seem as determined to scumhunt. I also feel that he is a lot more aggressive in persuing his scumreads here specifically his push on Malakittens in 376 where he asks for more votes on Malakittens. The way he owns his reads and tries to push lynches and engages others to vote his scumreads feels town and even when I disagree with the reasoning behind his pushes and his choice of targets, his posts come across like he genuinely believes what he is saying. 7. Ampersand (Cogito Ergo Sum + Fenchurch)
- Ampersand is my weakest townread and it comes mostly from the way Fenchurch's posts feel unprepared and raw. Post 238 felt town and her later posts (654 in particular) seem very transparent. I really like CES's interaction with Hanzo and it feels like he is genuinely trying to help him out by giving him pointers on how to connect with this playerlist whereas if they were scum, the lack of connection is something that can be easily exploited. I am unsure here and I need much bigger body of work before I can definitively figure it out. NULL
8. Chamber
- A lot of Chamber's posts don't really make much sense and his refusal to explain reads feels very anti-town. Nearly all the content he provides are one-liners which lead nowhere with 105 and 127 being particularly useless and 122 could do with a lot more elaboration. I also dislike his jump onto us in 411 and requesting an explanation for the contradiction in 443 and then completely ignoring it after it was given to continue to push a lynch seems like lazy, pretend scumhunting. The one thing that makes me reconsider is that he just seems too bad to be scum. I think he would be a little more careful about pushing town and scumreads and taking care to not make waves but the reckless way in which he is going about it makes me think anti-town but possibly town. Posts in 523 in particular completely misses the point of the interaction between him and Mala. Mala clearly intended to either try and read Chamber or figure out if his reasoning for voting us was legitimate enough that she should follow. Refusing to explain it makes it both more difficult for him to lynch his scumread and more difficult for others to read him. Neither of these benefit the town. The rest of Chamber's ISO is littered with trash and I need to do a full meta-dive to figure out whether this is town-trash or scum-trash because I am wondering if he just plays in a polar opposite way to me considering phrases like "town is just an absence of scum
" in 735 which literally made me headdesk and want to yell at my computer screen.9. Zdenek
- Zdenek is another player I have trouble nailing down a read on because of a facepalm-type playstyle of assuming that someone who disagrees with a read of yours is either scum with your scumread or whiteknighting your scumread. The thing is though, I can see that as a legitimate town thought process although the person who is having that thought process would have to be incredibly, incredibly deluded about both the strength of their scumhunting as well the confidence in their reads. I remember quite a few games I've played where I tell someone they are wrong and the immediate accusation is whiteknighting. It generally comes from town although not impossible to fake as scum. I dislike that many of his reads are based off of connections from unflipped players - first assuming that if Medea were scum, we were too, and later following that up with if Osseus is scum, Ampersand is as well. @ Cabd, I skimmed through NY165 and A uPick of Ice and Fire and found his playstyles largely similar. I don't find his belief that he caught scum particularly townish since it isn't much different from the way he was pushing at his scumreads in uPick. I thought 1418 in the uPick was actually quite similar to his posts here where he just dismisses explanations of reads as "bullshit
" while continuing to push through. Look closely at that post and I find that Kanye's annoyance at Zdenek not answering his questions and insistence that Zdenek answer his own questions before he answers Zdenek's resonated with me a lot and is one of the points against him. I feel like he avoids explaining himself whenever possible to reduce avenues of attack on him. I didn't see similar patterns in NY165 upon a skim but I need to read him in more detail before I can nail down a read. 11. Osseus pseudotripodis (Untrod Tripod + TBone)
- There are some parts of Osseus's analysis that I heavily dislike and other parts that I quite like. I like their initial push on ToastyToast and it echoed my thoughts about him at the moment and positionally, I agree with what they are saying. However, I don't like the way in which they attacked him and their 95 where they call ToastyToast's statement meaningless doesn't really make any sense because the whole point of scumhunting is to see what makes more sense as scum than town so I dislike the way they went about attacking ToastyToast. I didn't find their reads in 315 to be all that bad. Mina, I am not seeing your reasoning for pushing UT based on the fact that you disagree with his gut. That doesn't really make much sense. It is almost like you are trying to forcefeed them as to what their gut should say which is somewhat meaningless and the "if you're using gut to read her, then you should be townreading her
" is just completely ridiculous because you are expecting someone else to have the same gut reads that you do. However, Cabd, I re-read Micro 252 to see T-Bone's entrance and I saw him entering the game with a bang attacking EspeciallyTheLies who was really obvious town and backing up his reasons in a compelling, townish way and his analysis here left a lot to be desired. I don't see the same conviction here and the way he goes about giving his reads in 326 is a lot more softer than his hardline stance on ETL upon his replace-in in Micro 252. Just compare the sheer confidence in post 608 there and his subsequent posts compared with here and you can see why I am concerned with T-Bone's lack of contribution. His play overall doesn't have the same tone and self-assuredness that it does there. But that game was a lot more developed at that point and T-Bone was also playing alone so those could be mitigating factors. I need a bit more info from him before I can be certain in this read. SCUM
11. ToastyToast
- Toasty's 66 felt off and seemed like he was calling the argument town v town rather prematurely. I felt Mina was town but nothing that Chamber did really resonated with me. His explanation for it in 255 was really weak and seems to be made up after the fact and came down to town starting arguments and scum continuing them which is really just a playstyle tell and not an affiliation one not to mention that Mina and Chamber are experienced enough as scum to start arguments. His dislike of both Hanzo and Zdenek and later both Zdenek and us also doesn't really make sense considering all of those players have also started arguments and I doubt he even believes his whole started arguments theory that he brought up. I also dislike his issues with the depth of our explanations for our Medea read. It seems like he prefers an oversimplified version of it which doesn't capture the reasons for our townread and is actually suspicious of us for providing in-depth reads. I think in-depth reads are better but this is Toasty essentially pushing at something based almost entirely on playstyle. I've played with ToastyToasy in a couple of games (HunterxHunterx and Big Brother: HoH) and I don't get the same feelings that I got in that game and he feels much more calculated and opportunistic here as well as making much less sense in any of his analysis or pushes particularly his interpretation of the argument between Zdenek and me as well as the one between Chamber and Mina.12. Broseidon
- I dislike BRO's initial push on Malakittens and I really don't see why any of the things he pointed out are any more likely to come from town than scum. The "case" on Mala which amounts to "long-winded" and "hedging" are more playstyle tells than affiliation tells and I think in-depth explanations are good. Even if BRO disagreed, calling Mala scum for being long winded seemed rather disingenuous. I agree with the sentiment that BRO's rage can be faked as either affiliation and BRO certainly strikes me as the type to be able to fake emotions as scum. I dislike that he doesn't reach out to other players beyond a perfunctory "claiming Masons" with Cabd. The rest of his case comes down to "misreps of his position" that are unconvincing. I also quickly skimmed through Anything Goes and I fully agree with Medea and Bazinga about his rage being different with his anger being a lot more justified in that game and I could see why he would be so mad at being ignored by the majority of the playerlist and lynched. Based on that, his anger here seemed extremely premature and an attempt to keep in line with his town meta. I want to re-read Anything Goes to see what his frustration seems like as town.My best guess is that Toasty and BRO are scum, possibly with one of Osseus, Zdenek, or Chamber.
~ F-16
I haven't gotten around to it. There were still a lot of loose ends in my list that I needed to wrap up.In post 785, bazinga wrote:fuck it
if you were interested in meta-ing bro you would have looked at the game cos I dunno, it is an actual scum game of his?
~ F-16
@ Mollie, what I am disappointed at is that you didn't really engage the majority of my analysis. I was eager to go over them with you and I spent countless hours analyzing this game before I was able to narrow down scum to 5-6 players and I was really hoping for an enlightening discussion. Your dismissal of my reads and calling me scum because I didn't read one game of BRO's just sucks and not at all the response I was looking forward to getting from you.
~ F-16
~ F-16
It's pretty much the weirdest possible thing to focus on if he's scum; I doubt he thinks that it will convince anyone that Mala's scum partners are hydras (or what benefit that brings him unless Mala's his scum partner and all the hydras are town).In post 643, bazinga wrote:why wouldn't he?In post 637, Ghatokaca wrote:do you think bro would make such a big deal out of the scum in the hydras thing if he were scum?
But it's not like that was something useful or a threat to him in the first place.In post 649, Medea the Alien wrote:In post 635, bazinga wrote:In post 590, Medea the Alien wrote: Yes. Whether he's partnered with hydras or not. By the time he's done it's completely twisted around to become useless.
I don't have a strong townread on BRO like you do. He is also one of the players that I can't I imagine strong defending except in a very, very different game.In post 652, bazinga wrote:well this certainly seems like the know it all holier than thou attitude and belligerent bro that I 4 1 have come to love
I compared his iso from sabotage to this one and there was a lot more attitude in this game than I thought and next to none in sabotage.
I am not going to be lynching bro today.
and I still haven't gotten what I needed from nacho.
and I am wondering why he did not do a harder job of defending bro. my nightmare scumteam is mala/ghatts/medeas or notty and they are all sitting in my shiny town pile.
Why isn't he town as fuck?In post 682, Malakittens wrote:In post 678, Hanzo_5 wrote:Your a Jerk, I pretty much derp as town in everygame im in so when im scum i can get away with it. Gotta use that meta somehow lol.In post 673, bazinga wrote:beep boop
that is me trying to be humourously facetious and apparently failing. I don't think any1 is gonna say that in this game except mebbehanzoderporscumzit isn't an issue in this game I am merely pointing out that a lot of players would consider this a dyed in the wool scumtell when it isn't
Okay that was a lie, But im not derping im just not good at this lol.Ugh at this joke because it was an ill-placed joke, no offense to you.In post 679, Hanzo_5 wrote:Also, im Huuuur Town as FUCK duuuur, so lets all sheep me and lynch Malakittens for my huuuur horrible reasons and weak case that could not be refuted duuur.
You aren't town as fuck, just sayin'.
Also just because I can't refute a case doesn't make me scum. It just means I have poor communication skills in general.
How else do you expect me to interact with her when we were both town? I find, as either alignment, that I tend to interact with her most when she's scumreading me and not so much when she isn't.In post 698, Hanzo_5 wrote:I dont see mollie bussing nacho as a scum team, but i sure do find it odd that nacho is not trying to interact with mollie and not trying to lynch the slot shes in.
"im town reading her but, i need to not interact with the people i think is on my team, esp. the ones who can read me very well"
I feel like hes doing something along those lines.
Does this mean you're finally coming around to voting Osseus?In post 702, Mina wrote: Also found his reasons for voting Ghato kind of nitpicky (two different heads of the hydra have slightly different reads on penguin's meta, but both agree she's more aggressive as town--where's the contradiction?), although I liked his anger there. Kind of think they could be cross-bussing, actually.
I didn't respond to your meta case because I felt it was a case that was overcompensating because of Too Many Heads. I told Falcon that I expected you to waffle on us a bit more than you usually did because of your misread on me in that game, and I expected your read on us to be formed after a trial by fire after that game. This was a talk that would have to happen eventually, but before wasn't exactly the right time.In post 717, bazinga wrote: it was a coin toss between ghatty things and bro, both are looking pretty scummy. votes are stalled, game needs momentum or a fresh direction. ghatty things has been online hasn't posted and did not respond to the meta case and the embrace from our reach out held all the warmth of a corpse. we are still trying to work things out but we felt this was the best thing to do for now. and where did f16 go?
I think this is improved play from his scum game, sure, but I also think that UT is pretty self-conscious about how terrible his scumgame is and his town game becomes ridiculously transparent as a result: I haven't seen any of those "UT is obviously town" feelings in a while.In post 757, Mina wrote:Well...In post 740, bazinga wrote:Uhh...you're letting UT off the hook for "actually showing?" Not only has he like disappeared for the past couple of days, but do you have past game examples of what you're talking about? My past meta doesn't line up with what you're saying.
I'm definitely not saying he looks town here. I'm saying this was his ISO as scum in Abarat 2 before he flaked. (It's scummier if you're reading the game and see where his votes are landing.)
Actually, it isn't AS horrendous as I remember--it's kind of similar to the posts I think are from UT. In retrospect, I shouldn't have even mentioned a wishy-washy doubt like that in the thread--I wasn't "letting him off the hook" or even professing a town read on him so much as waffling out loud over whether he was scum. Sorry. I just feel naked without a hydra partner.
Hey, UT, why have you been posting actively all over this site while ignoring this game for days?
There's not a player on site with a good sample size of my play who has read me perfectly 100% of the time. There are very few players on site who can actually read me well. Mollie is one of them, and too many heads doesn't change that fact. You know this.In post 799, Malakittens wrote:Yes, I'm discrediting your read on Nacho based on the fact you aren't accurate all the time in reading him and someone wants to sheep you because he claims you are accurate as hell in reading him. After the open game you wagoning nacho just because you think he's scum based on 'hey guise I can read him' isn't going to fly with me.In post 796, bazinga wrote:mala I think the best play as town is to pester your townread with non-alignment questions and then discredit their reads.
How about you actually work with me and if I'm telling you that I dislike your townreads talk to me about it instead of making little potshots at me.
In post 794, notscience wrote:Which part?
Because I trust mollie, and I know I can't ever catch nacho-scum.
I get your logic for why you were worried about us being a scumteam earlier, but I don't understand where this "one of these two people is scum" bit came in.In post 811, Hanzo_5 wrote:My scum read is based on Nacho and Mollies interraction. Malakittens is obviously the person i am referring too. If you have read my posts ive already said why i am scum reading nacho and by proxy ghato and when i decided to read them that way. To be honest i think one of bazinga and ghato are likely scum based on how they are interracting with each other.
Ill have to reread his big list this game is getting dull and my other games are more exciting so i need to pay more attention to this one i guess. More later...
I've misread you a few times before and it didn't seem to shake you until now.In post 835, Malakittens wrote:I'm not saying she can't read you well, but she sure can't read you accurately all the time. She's human and she makes mistakes. I used to think you could tell the difference between scum and town me, but you recently proven you couldn't when you unnerved enough to drop a scum read on a player I have experience with in playing.In post 831, Ghatokaca wrote:There's not a player on site with a good sample size of my play who has read me perfectly 100% of the time. There are very few players on site who can actually read me well. Mollie is one of them, and too many heads doesn't change that fact. You know this.In post 799, Malakittens wrote:Yes, I'm discrediting your read on Nacho based on the fact you aren't accurate all the time in reading him and someone wants to sheep you because he claims you are accurate as hell in reading him. After the open game you wagoning nacho just because you think he's scum based on 'hey guise I can read him' isn't going to fly with me.In post 796, bazinga wrote:mala I think the best play as town is to pester your townread with non-alignment questions and then discredit their reads.
How about you actually work with me and if I'm telling you that I dislike your townreads talk to me about it instead of making little potshots at me.
The one thing the interactions between you to as scum are a bit more funny than I would have expected. Like scum her not being able to read me for shit and passing me onto you to read. I can tell you one thing I'm confident in that you both aren't scum together. Your interactions mirror nothing like OGM.
Heads does change a bit for me because I'm not going to just sheep her when I know she could be wrong. I want to discuss with her so I know she's right.
~
Mollie, you tend to work with your town reads why aren't you with me? I asked questions and got no answers. I want you to talk to me about your nacho and BRO read more in depth.
~
Hanzo you disappear for a while and you come back with voting me?.. Which out of Mollie and nacho are leanin scum. I can tell you right now in confidence that I doubt they are scum buddies. Notscience is right.. This is how they act every game to get reads off each other so you shouldn't take this as alignment influenced.
I also don't really remember you sheeping mollie's read on me before but maybe I'm just misremembering things. But, if you weren't a ride or die believer of it, then you freaking out at the discovery of nobody's perfect is actually pretty strange.
I looked through NY165 and I found that most of his pushes had similar conviction to his pushes here especially the way he went after Stevie during the early game. In uPick of Ice and Fire, I felt that he pushed at suspects but it didn't have the same amount of conviction and certainty, or presenting his case trying to get other people to vote as much as he did in his towngame so your point has merit.In post 812, Mina wrote:Zdenek, I find him pretty readable most of the time. As town, he's a very dogged player who's prone to tunneling, and shows more passion. As scum, he's more aloof and mechanical ("robotic," to reuse my pet term). The way he's hounding you and Medea for contradictions is his town self.
Looking forward to this whenever you are ready.In post 819, Medea the Alien wrote:Our reads list aligns almost perfectly and usually I'd get eebie jeebies, but we're coming from the same source (extreme use of meta) so it makes sense. I swear to god I can't wait to talk with you a ton more. (I still want nacho to stop being lazy and get his ass in here though)
Because the primary basis of my scumhunting is POE. I couldn't disagree more with your statement. I spend much more time focussing on finding town, and then narrowing down the pool to possible scum.In post 857, chamber wrote:Can you explain why this made you :headdesk: for me?In post 779, Ghatokaca wrote:"town is just an absence of scum" in 735 which literally made me headdesk and want to yell at my computer screen.
Nacho voted Osseus and we haven't yet synced up on our latest thoughts. Hanzo push was strange but Hanzo is a strange guy so that is par for the course.In post 856, ToastyToast wrote:Yeah the BRO push on Malakittens was strange, but how was it different from Hanzo's push? Overall I do think your read list is good, so you probably aren't the right lynch for today. I'd be okay with a Broseidon or Osseus lynch at this point, since we are running out of time and they have done nothing that makes me think they are town. Medea still my favored lynch. Also why are you voting Osseus if you think Bro and myself are most likely scum?
~ F-16
In post 845, notscience wrote:Bite meIn post 832, Ghatokaca wrote:In post 794, notscience wrote:Which part?
Because I trust mollie, and I know I can't ever catch nacho-scum.
F-16 not including a BRO scumgame doesn't mean that he's not trying to sort BRO out at all; it shows that he's making a giant reads list and doing a fuck ton of reading and still coming up with artery impressive piece of work that you haven't been engaging at all.In post 848, bazinga wrote:minaIn post 808, Mina wrote:mollie, I'm getting whiplash right now.
If you read that post, then I find the meta accusation pretty unfair, considering he provided meta in exhaustive detail for several players. I mean, look at me. I've promised to meta at least three people this game and not bothered to do any of it And yet you voted him for missingonegame out of ten? That reads list was incredibly in-depth (I was tempted to skim it, but I'm glad I didn't!), and showed more nuance, attention to detail, and deliberation than something like Medea's effort-post.
mina
mina
listen to me mina. do you know what bothers me so much about that particular read? is that f16 is comparing 2 of bros town games to this 1 and saying he is scummy while ignoring the link to scumbro itt. that meta read was shit, there was no time and no effort put in it and it is so fucking surface that it isn't even funny!ghatty things are not trying to sort bro out. <----- they really aren't and it should be pretty obvious! f16 should giddy and giggling at the idea of going into an in depth meta analysis on bro cos oh I dunno, I have a good amount of experience with him when he has been both alignments? he isn't. my town read on medeas is plummeting for the same reason and I think ghatty things might have been wking a scummate which nacho will do if he thinks his scummate is a good player and will pull their weight. like medeas has not bothered to get back with me on my counter to their argument. but I don't know, I am waffling on them pretty hard too.
so stop and think about it; there is evidence of scumbro itt and I can link the original xeno game too where he went on to win for his team but ghatty things does not seem to be interested in what scumbro looks like he just wants to call him scummy based off of 2 town games. <---- oh hell no.
the reason you are having whiplash cos I recently had my confidence shaken to its core when I mislynched nacho/desp in too many heads. I asked gib (gib is not a player on this site, nacho and I know him from others but he and I have had extensive meta discussions about nacho) to take a look at the game and show me where I misstepped. first he wanted the highlights and when I told him that nacho had voted me and put me at L2 he was like, "lol how does nacho not know to not do that with you" and then he read it and said, "your retarded" cos it was obvious as fuck that nacho was town. but I get like that with my nearest and dearest, if they misread me that bad I tend to scumread them and it is very hard to knock me out of it.
so we (bazinga) mislynched him in a fantastically, spectacularly way and every1 got pissed at me cos I was wrong. I have only mislynched himtwicein like a ridiculous amount of games but it doesn't matter cos 1 time I was wrong, lol.
so we are going to waffle on them. and waffle and waffle and more waffle. even after that terrible list (and there were other things in there other than the meta read on bro) I am still waffling. nacho feels wrong in this game and he was mr mchedgeville on his read on burnt toast but I am still waffling. Iwantthem to be town but I am just not feeling it and I feel like I have been pretty patient.
so there you go.
My Toasty read is a weak read based on a play style I don't understand and a few genuine points amongst a sea of weirdness, and your read on him has been formed the exact same way. What am I ignoring that I'm missing in my Toasty read?
I'll admit my BRO read was probably the one I put in the least amount of effort. It was the last read I was doing while being asked for my reads list and I didn't spend as much time on it as the others. I spend more time trying to consolidate townreads as opposed to making cases on scumreads because it is more important for me to get my POE right and not townread scum. I think it is better to have strong townreads and a pile of potentially interchangeable null/scumreads than it is to nail down one or two very strong scumreads. Lynching from outside the strong town pool makes a lot more sense.
Mina, I am less confident about you than before because Nacho insisted that you were a good enough scum player to come off as pro-town and that while you did have some genuine notes, faking ATE is something you can easily do as scum and none of it hit the point of not fake-able for him. I later read through Marketplace III and saw you and Faraday attacking Lord Mhork and Tammy initially which looked townish on first glance which added to my uncertainty. I do think there were a couple of things that were completely different; your attacking Mhork seemed like pushing someone who was easily frustrated so he could dig himself a bigger hole and the Tammy-attack was obviously trying to discredit her reads. I felt Nacho had a point that you could come across as town but I still thought there were no underlying malicious agendas in your posts that I saw in Marketplace III.
The last two posts have a loaded question and a loaded answer. I think most reads are worth supporting with evidence. I think explanations for town reads are awesome, they help people know where I am coming from, and whether they agree or disagree with them. Regfan once wrote a really long post about why it is cool to do that and I mostly do reads-list because I see the effectiveness of his. I obviously don't think my research on town reads was unnecessary. I do tend to overexplain townreads as town; reading my past games, it should be obvious. In the first game I played with Bert, I wrote a huge meta analysis about him being town even though I was the only person scumreading him and most others were saying he was town anyways.
~ F-16
Mina, I am less confident about you than before because Nacho insisted that you were a good enough scum player to come off as pro-town and that while you did have some genuine notes, faking ATE is something you can easily do as scum and none of it hit the point of not fake-able for him. I later read through Marketplace III and saw you and Faraday attacking Lord Mhork and Tammy initially which looked townish on first glance which added to my uncertainty. I do think there were a couple of things that were completely different; your attacking Mhork seemed like pushing someone who was easily frustrated so he could dig himself a bigger hole and the Tammy-attack was obviously trying to discredit her reads. I felt Nacho had a point that you could come across as town but I still thought there were no underlying malicious agendas in your posts that I saw in Marketplace III.
The last two posts have a loaded question and a loaded answer. I think most reads are worth supporting with evidence. I think explanations for town reads are awesome, they help people know where I am coming from, and whether they agree or disagree with them. Regfan once wrote a really long post about why it is cool to do that and I mostly do reads-list because I see the effectiveness of his. I obviously don't think my research on town reads was unnecessary. I do tend to overexplain townreads as town; reading my past games, it should be obvious. In the first game I played with Bert, I wrote a huge meta analysis about him being town even though I was the only person scumreading him and most others were saying he was town anyways.
~ F-16
UNVOTE:
Osseus's last posts make me unsure. @ Mina, I've been PMing Nacho and spamming our quicktopic as well as his inbox and I have no idea why he isn't showing up or sharing his thoughts. I have a few updated thoughts I wanted to run by him when he shows up. I am not voting yet because Nacho isn't confident about BRO and I am mostly letting him take the lead as to where our votes end up. @ Bazinga, happy to discuss reads whenever.
~ F-16
Osseus's last posts make me unsure. @ Mina, I've been PMing Nacho and spamming our quicktopic as well as his inbox and I have no idea why he isn't showing up or sharing his thoughts. I have a few updated thoughts I wanted to run by him when he shows up. I am not voting yet because Nacho isn't confident about BRO and I am mostly letting him take the lead as to where our votes end up. @ Bazinga, happy to discuss reads whenever.
~ F-16
Well, that strengthens my read on Penguin. There were a couple of posts there that gave me a crazy gut scum-read on her. I wish I persued it rather than be persuaded otherwise. Her play here is WAY different and I'd be flabbergasted if she was scum here. NotScience played a meh towngame. Still feel that he is town here. I actually want to re-read BRO-posts in more detail. I wasn't highly involved in lynching him (Nacho was) and he was pretty convinced BRO was scum there. What are your thoughts?
~ F-16
~ F-16
We're a VT. I gave my list of reads. The only changes I'd make are that Osseus feels a little more town since he genuinely seems to believe that we are scum and is taking responsibility for a lynch he doesn't have to take. It seems like he is trying to get the cred for a mislynch which indicates that he is unaware of who the town/scum are which is a pretty slam dunk towntell. He is also a fucktard.
I'd go with Mina's read on Zdenek. I think she is more accurate anyways and my thoughts may have been clouded by my annoyance at him and his playstyle. I don't know about Chamber and wtf hapenned that makes everyone thinks he is obvtown. He should be looked into at some point.
There is a pretty damn good chance BRO is scum. Sure, we have Mollie's case but his play here is nothing like the recent game I finished where he was town and I actually trust Penguin's read a lot more here considering more experience and hydra experience.
It is pretty humiliating to get mislynched D1 - that never hapenned before but w/e. If there's anything else you want thoughts about, let me know.
~ F-16
I'd go with Mina's read on Zdenek. I think she is more accurate anyways and my thoughts may have been clouded by my annoyance at him and his playstyle. I don't know about Chamber and wtf hapenned that makes everyone thinks he is obvtown. He should be looked into at some point.
There is a pretty damn good chance BRO is scum. Sure, we have Mollie's case but his play here is nothing like the recent game I finished where he was town and I actually trust Penguin's read a lot more here considering more experience and hydra experience.
It is pretty humiliating to get mislynched D1 - that never hapenned before but w/e. If there's anything else you want thoughts about, let me know.
~ F-16
@ Chamber, I assume you mean character name. It is Chistery.
@ Penguin, I still find Mina townish. Her flip-flopping and massive waffling feels very townish like she can't make up her mind.
I really don't know about Ampersand. I don't think it is impossible for them to be scum and some of Fenchurch's posts felt townish but I really don't see anything alignment indicative coming out of CES. What do you think of them?
~ F-16
@ Penguin, I still find Mina townish. Her flip-flopping and massive waffling feels very townish like she can't make up her mind.
I really don't know about Ampersand. I don't think it is impossible for them to be scum and some of Fenchurch's posts felt townish but I really don't see anything alignment indicative coming out of CES. What do you think of them?
~ F-16
Why the fuck is there a wagon on us this close to deadline when I'm pretty fucking confident that F-16 is one of the easiest players on site to read and I'm also pretty fucking confident that F-16 has posted anything that even so much as implies anything other than his normal self? What the hell is wrong with this game?
He didn't want to post reads without talking it over with me, then decided that he didn't want to wait to talk it over with me because I was going to be focusing on non hydra games for a while. I know I'm in the seat of priviledged information at the moment, but that one shouldn't have been difficult to figure out.In post 872, Zdenek wrote:I find it funny that Ghat doesn't post read without consulting Nacho, but apparently ignores Nacho's contributions when he posts his own reads.
You think BRO belongs in null. You think that Osseus belongs in scum.In post 873, Zdenek wrote:I don't see how Ghat gets to worse than null on Bro.
Ghat's accusation that Chamber's 127 is useless is rather unfair, since I asked Chamber what his read on the two players were. The fact that he didn't have one is an acceptable, even if disappointing, answer.
His accusation that I think he is scum because we disagree is false. I've also never accused him of whiteknighting. I also think that his claim that I have avoided explaining myself is garbage, since I did that about one thing soon after replacing in.
Based on their analysis, I have a hard time understanding why Osseus is null and not scum - a push on Toasty Toast and some agreement in town reads?
What do these two opinions of yours have to do with anything? (They don't.)
I don't think it's hard to misinterpret most of your pushes on people as you disagreeing with them. I don't often pay attention to your pushes because you have a tendency to get lost in tunnelville: when you get lost in tunnelville, there is a lot of filler that does not make a whole lot of sense. I remember you very distinctly accusing F-16 of fabricating a town read on Medea, and you thought it was fabricated because his reasons are shit. That is white knighting, or close enough for anyone with half a brain to care about. As for you explaining yourself... Maybe? Probably?
I really really really really don't think missing one scum game means shit at all, especially in a reads list. Keep in mind that F-16 probably read through about 16 games in one sitting (or something close). Keep in mind that before he made this big long list, he was already biased and already looking to confirm or disprove a couple theories: it takes a complete fucking robot in order to release a reads list and actually start from scratch.In post 878, bazinga wrote:my arteries are not impressed. and I have been engaging him I am trying to figure out how you can come up with a player being scummy based on 2 town games and somehow manage to ignore their scum 1s. the game is less than 50 pages. he hasn't gotten back to me as to whether or not he has even LOOKED at it so the discussion to be had is dangling from you guyz end not ours.In post 871, Ghatokaca wrote: F-16 not includinganya BRO scumgame doesn't mean that he's not trying to sort BRO out at all; it shows that he's making a giant reads list and doing a fuck ton of reading and still coming up with artery impressive piece of work that you haven't been engaging at all.
My Toasty read is a weak read based on a play style I don't understand and a few genuine points amongst a sea of weirdness, and your read on him has been formed the exact same way. What am I ignoring that I'm missing in my Toasty read?
jesus fucking christ with all of the "meta diving" flying around and with bro in the lead not 1 player is actually doing any authentic meta diving! ftr THIS is why I am getting super cranky
what are you missing about toasty? giving an actual read for starters unless after your ginormous hedge you have decided to go with your partner's scumread?
He wasn't doing thorough meta dives on everyone. It shouldn't matter that he missed one of bro's scumgames, especially when there is absolutely no alignment relevant reason to do so. What will linking BRO's scumgame and saying "cool, I read it" do to F-16's read of BRO? What will linking it do in thread? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
I lean town on Toasty.
But wait wait wait
I don't feel strongly about it. Still.
Occasionally, I can look at a post with reads in it and not hate it just because those reads are different from mine. I know F-16 put a lot of time in that post, and I know it lays out his thought processes pretty clearly in thread. Thought processes that could be engaged/looked at by certain people whose name rhyme with Polly because its really not hard to find the "this person cares about this and has invested a lot into it" that she's looking for but somehow has missed.In post 882, Mina wrote:Zdenek, I'd classify Ghatokaca as nulltown, since I don't know how strong F-16 is as scum.
I'm giving that post a more thorough look. What impressed me was the shitload of research F-16, did as well as the nitty-gritty attention to detail. I don't know if there's any particular observation that makes me go, "Holy shit, he's town", but I liked all the "I looked up these three past games to show that this person reacted in a similar way!" stuff. Maybe I'm just projecting because I wouldn't put that much effort into justifying fake reads.
And he looks like he's scrutinizing every single player in minute detail. There are throwaway comments referring to his thought process that are fakable but still add to my overall general impression that he's scumhunting rather than posting words.
I also liked the same post that notscience did.
The "convenience" of the targets didn't bug me all that much, because it feels like most of my town reads have been converging on roughly the same people.
There are small things I don't like. F-16's tone is quite aloof, for one. I do see mollie's point that he could have used his meta time more productively (shouldn't metaing BRO be a priority over showing the same townread everyone in the game has on mollie?), and so it could be for show. I felt like the chamber one in particular is superficial attacks on his playstyle. And why was Zdenek in null if F-16 said he agreed with my townread after the meta research?) Also feel like some of the stuff in the townreads is unnecessary padding. And why did I go from your sole confident townread of the game to just "a decent townread"? My question about gut alone gave you a scumread?
Nacho, you're complimenting F-16's reads post, but don't you disagree with a bunch of them?
Why?In post 868, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:are yall bitches chinese, you're obsessed with walls
love our ghat vote
Also, engage with me. Read my ISO and CTRL+F Osseus if you don't like walls and respond to the things I've asked you.
In post 895, BROseidon wrote:So you put the least effort in trying to get a read in one of the largest wagons?In post 888, Ghatokaca wrote:I'll admit my BRO read was probably the one I put in the least amount of effort. It was the last read I was doing while being asked for my reads list and I didn't spend as much time on it as the others. I spend more time trying to consolidate townreads as opposed to making cases on scumreads because it is more important for me to get my POE right and not townread scum. I think it is better to have strong townreads and a pile of potentially interchangeable null/scumreads than it is to nail down one or two very strong scumreads. Lynching from outside the strong town pool makes a lot more sense.
wat.
Do you remember that game where I was scum and you were the only person not to see it because scum apathy had set in to the extreme and I had a scummy fucking partner? Please don't pretend that you have any capabilities whatsoever in reading me.In post 945, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:VTIn post 942, chamber wrote:Deadline is in a little over a day if you missed that? So that's not happening. You are just going to get lynched. Claim while you are around, maybe that saves you.In post 939, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Seriously guys? How about you give me (Bone) a chance to finish with my RL stuff and get into this game again? We're not 'lurking' cause we're scum, we're 'lurking' because of some issues I have had over the past week or so. Last week was hell for me, but I'll be better after today. Don't be stupid and let scum trick you into a "compromise" lynch on a obvious town player who fell off the face of the earth for awhile. What information to you get when we flip town? You will get nothing, because this is a lazy scum-led lynch. You should be looking at Ghakota and shit.
Bullshit. It's fucking lazy. I have handed you scum on a sliver fucking platter, it shouldn't matter that I haven't posted in a week, that has no bearing on our alignment or this game. I nailed them over a week ago! To the fucking wall so much that their buddy Bazinga was bussing them for a short period of time.
F-16 posts fake meta reads, and Nacho misrepresents shit. Check-fucking-mate. This is a lazy mislynch otherwise. You want to lynch a pro-town player who has been a bit absent rather than a scummy player who's been here rubbing it in everyone's face? Terrible. I PROMISE Ghakota will flip scum 1000%. I can read Nacho like the back of my hand. When he is scum, he looks to discredit players and misrepresent their play. It's not my fault if you want to keep scum around, it's YOUR fault.
I got shit to do, so if you're going to make a bad decision and pass up Ghakota who has practically CLAIMED scum in this thread with their play, don't leave me in suspense. I laid it out there why he's scum. They already showed their hand and a week of missed game time doesn't change that.
If you don't choose to lynch us, I'll demonstrate why Bazinga is their scumbuddy at a later time. For real, outside of the game, I am working on my graduate school work. My classes are six weeks long, so every six weeks I'm unavailable to really sink my teeth in a game. It's a fairly predictable thing that is outside the scope of this game, and has nothing to do with our alignment, so if you're letting anyone argue that we're lurking scum, chances are they are scum going for the easy mislynch.
I don't mean to flip out, it's a combination of stress and then seeing that we're about to be lynched even though there is a solid lynch that should have gone through right now. I apologize for flipping out, but things needed to be said regardless. You need to lynch Ghakota tomorrow, no questions asked when you mislynch us today.
This is Bone signing off.
You still haven't pointed out where I misrepresented you (no one has, and it's been what, a week?). The rest of this is rhetoric and boring.
I'm sorry. What about those last few posts were good?In post 956, Ghatokaca wrote:UNVOTE:
Osseus's last posts make me unsure. @ Mina, I've been PMing Nacho and spamming our quicktopic as well as his inbox and I have no idea why he isn't showing up or sharing his thoughts. I have a few updated thoughts I wanted to run by him when he shows up. I am not voting yet because Nacho isn't confident about BRO and I am mostly letting him take the lead as to where our votes end up. @ Bazinga, happy to discuss reads whenever.
~ F-16
Is it for UT saying that he thinks people are scumreading BRO because he's being too much of a jerk? Doesn't that show that he's actually not understood any piece of the BRO wagon at all? And with Mala... Gut read? Like he said earlier?In post 948, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:@Mina
I only really see two questions you had for me. I'll try to give you something to work with I guess? Sorry I missed them, I'm really unlikely to catch it when you expect me to read a novel every time I open the thread. I'm not going to apologize for that. It's kind of on you to be accessible if you want people to interact with you.
regarding mala... it was a gut read? I tend to do really well catching scum via RVS interactions and Mala was my RVS read. It's all gut babe. I thought I was pretty clear about that earlier.
I think people are voting for Bro because he's being standoffish and unhelpful. I don't think this is scum for him, because imo he's more of an in-your-face scum player. this looks like someone who (like me, actually) sees pages of quotestriping and their eyes glaze over.In post 702, Mina wrote:Really? I think that BROseidon is playing quite poorly if he's town in this particular game. But since when is BRO a policy-lynch worthy player? Considering you moddedIn post 329, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:well my #1 argument is that I don't think he's scum and he'd be a terrible let's-get-rid-of-a-shitty-player-lynch
what's your argument for not voting mala?Anything Goes, this opinion is pretty off, UT.
OR OR OR it was him apologizing for missing questions because we're posting too much! That's why this hydra is town!
I can't even make up a reason for why this would be town to anyone.In post 949, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:also this is adorable. did calling out your wall obfuscation annoy you :3In post 890, ToastyToast wrote:In post 868, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:are yall bitches chinese, you're obsessed with walls love our ghat voteIn post 869, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:oh and the only thing I've read in the last ~10 pages that was important was BRO towntelling like a bossYeah so this thing should probably get lynchedIn post 881, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:no u
Unvote:Vote:Osseus pseudotripodis
The things that set Nacho off won't be setting him off until the weekend (or maybe even after I'm done being set off by things in this thread!). I told F-16 to post whatever the fuck he wanted while I was gone, no need to clear anything with me because the driver's seat was his. It would have been dumb for me to try to sort out differences in thread.In post 952, Mina wrote:^Were those last posts also T-Bone?
Sorry for the verbosity (at least I don't think I'm the worst offender in this game for once!). My problem with your Mala read is that I don't find it impossible to verbalize gut feelings. Anything particular about those posts that set you off? How did it make you feel?
Also, can you honestly describe yourself as "obvious town" with a straight face? Even you've admitted that you've been a lurky nonentity this week--there was no real reason to think you weretown. I feel as though your confidence both in your innocence and your scumreads is bluster.
You could actually be right about Ghatokaca being scum, though. Doing some rereading. Ghato, why is your vote on Osseus instead of BROseidon. And where's Nacho's comment on the big post? There's stuff in it that really should have set him off.
Why is the way I'm posting scummy?In post 1067, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:we've got a live one guys
he's quotespamming and calling it scum reads
dat OMGUS
Sorry, I know you don't like reading novels, so I made it a little easier for you to see!In post 1069, Ghatokaca wrote:In post 1067, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:we've got a live one guys
he's quotespamming and calling it scum reads
dat OMGUSWhy is the way I'm posting scummy?
You probably thought you answered my question, but you didn't.In post 1071, Ghatokaca wrote:Sorry, I know you don't like reading novels, so I made it a little easier for you to see!In post 1069, Ghatokaca wrote:In post 1067, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:we've got a live one guys
he's quotespamming and calling it scum reads
dat OMGUSWhy is the way I'm posting scummy?
I'm just going to point this out to other people, since directing this at UT or that hydra in general would be fucking useless:In post 969, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Brother Frexspar the GodlyIn post 955, Mina wrote:Just VT and no flavour?
Did anyone else notice that Toasty's top scum reads were the leading two wagons? upon reread, I find myself agreeing with you that his vote was even worse than Zdenek's. in fact, the voices pushing for the day 1 hey-let's-lynch-a-lurker-lynch probably contain one scum (chamber, zdenek, toasty). that wagon was just sort of hanging out with a couple of votes for a long time. chamber is probably the least likely of the group to be scum, imo, because he didn't have a lot to lose by sticking with it.
willing to compromise on one of ghat's buddies today since apparently yall are so mesmerised by walls that him posting some stupid fucking reads list is enough to get you to stop seeing the scumminess staring you in the face
There isn't a player in the entire world who would call someone 1000% scum, or let his hydra partner call someone 1000% scum, and then turn to compromising onto a buddy later. Both players are tunnely as fuck, so the fact that UT even tries to pull this bullshit when traction runs out should be a massive red flag. But apparently it isn't?
I'm ignoring you because I'm not in the best of moods at the moment and this game isn't helping much. I'm saying what I want to say now because I haven't had the best of luck throwing out last wills on my own time and I've regretted every time I haven't gotten to post before stupid shit happens. If you like me at all at a person or don't want to be an absolute shithead, please recognize that I'm not in the best of places at the moment and stop engaging. Thank you.In post 1075, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:there's not a number of words or QUESTIONS you can DEMAND ANSWERS to that's going to make me say "oh, I guess he's town"
I'm not intimidatable that way
Confident enough to give towncred for all who vote us, not confident enough not to seek an out every couple of pages. This doesn't seem like townUT to me! I don't remember who the fuck he wanted dead in YOLO, but I can sure as hell promise he didn't go about getting it like this.In post 981, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:appeal to the majority means that your argument was that your read was good because other people agree with you. which is what you were saying.
@mina
you want to vote for ghat. toasty would be a great vote if town had the balls for it but I'm not getting my hopes up.
It's an acceptable town tactic to defend your townreads, yes.In post 993, Hanzo_5 wrote:Okay Im back i did a reread.
I find that the fanatic defense of malakittens on D1 is just to much to over come. I do not think that I am a good enough player to ever push this lynch.
VOTE: Toasty Toast.
Ossy I feel like you believe toasty is more scummy than Ghatokaca. Why are you not voting for him?
___
It seems to me that Notscience, bazinga, Malakittens, and Ghatokaca are really making it impossible to lynch a player they do not want to be lynched. Is this an acceptable town tactic on d1 to almost prevent lynches withere vote splitting wagoning technique?
Do you remember when Tammy and I read Empire as god tier town because of how far above he was past his normal shit tier scum play? Please don't make the mistake of "well, he's posting, so maybe he might be town!!!" because it's actually a remarkably scummy mistake to make.In post 1007, Mina wrote:This is kind of how I feel right now. I'd prefer another day to explore this read more.- ghatty things I will honestly be too chickenshit to vote them /kills self checks in with bert.
To be fair, I'm also feeling chickenshit about voting BRO.
I hope I'm not underestimating UT's scum meta, because some of his arguments and bluster are really over-the-top, but this is miles above his Abarat play.
Of course.In post 1026, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:and chamber you're being a buzzkill right now
this was supposed to be Mina's moment and you've ruined it
she was undertaking a JOURNEY dude. don't you care about her ARC
@Medea
holy fuck you need to learn when to not defend your buddy. he's gonna flip scum soon and boy will there be egg on your face
Vote: Osseus
I think that T-Bone play is fairly summed up as making a giant fucking deal about me misrepping him when I have no fucking idea what he's talking about and neither does anyone else. He has a bunch of excuses for lurking. He has also suddenly been gifted knowledge and confidence in reading me when he's had nothing of the sort on the past (in the last game he played against me as town, I'm fairly sure I saw the phrase "I have literally no idea how to read Nacho".
UT's play can best be summed up as lurking (which he originally tried to blame on being in a hydra, which is bullshit), a bunch of baseless gut reads that UT had and then immediately discarded to follow T-Bone tunneling on Mala, then T-Bone tunneling here. Then, after tunneling the shit out of us, made an attempt to compromise onto an easy target so many times and so blatantly that fucking Hanzo picked up on it and questioned it. The last two pages are what I've been waiting for from UT for pretty much the whole game, but in the end, it's too little and too late.
I also think that Mina is scum. Her primary strengths as scum are looking town and AtEing as well as getting away with all of that wonderful "oh look at me, I'm waffling!". I don't like her treatment of the Ampersand hydra. I think that her paranoia on CES is not as transparent or vocalized as it would be if she were town (she gave us "oh this is totally scum CES" and then nothing more) and I thought she dismissed Fenchurch far too quickly for tone reasons and pretty much nothing else (and her paranoia with CES didn't match up to her completely falling for Fenchurch). I also don't like her reaction to UT lately, regardless of his alignment. I actually think its a little less likely to be coming from scum partners since its pretty blatant and horrible, but it also could come from scum-Mina who is discovering there is less heat on her partner than there should be.
I don't know what the fuck BRO is doing. I don't particularly care and am not at all inclined to lynch him at the moment because he seems to be doing a better job here than he was in the game I just finished mislynching him in. It would be so very lovely if mollie stopped acting like there was something significant to find in his scumgame that everyone was missing and instead just aired her thoughts, but loveliness is not always attainable these days.
Zdenek is obviously town; he dreams of doing shit like this as scum, I'm sure, but he just can't play at that level quite yet.
Chamber is town, don't see where people are getting nulls on him unless they honestly believe his scum MO is an attempt to mislynch me/bus me right out of the gate.
Hanzo is probably very very very town, tone is weird but just seems like an attempt to be reasonable.
Mala is probably town, although I do have paranoid thoughts based on her recent game.
Penguin is still the most town I have ever seen her.
Chamber is town, don't see where people are getting nulls on him unless they honestly believe his scum MO is an attempt to mislynch me/bus me right out of the gate.
Hanzo is probably very very very town, tone is weird but just seems like an attempt to be reasonable.
Mala is probably town, although I do have paranoid thoughts based on her recent game.
Penguin is still the most town I have ever seen her.
I am having a harder time reading you because the timing of the tunneling isn't improbable to come from scum aiming for a mislynch. When Osseus pushed us, it seemed at the time that we were going to be lynched anyways so his jump felt unnecessary when he could just have said a lot less and hopped on to the wagon. When you pushed us, no one else was suspecting us so it is situationally different.In post 1093, Zdenek wrote:Considering that you are using this as a town-tell, I have no idea why you are having such a hard time reading me.
I changed my mind on Osseus mostly based on Nacho's points. I hadn't considered the flip side that if Osseus didn't make some strong push, they were more likely to be lynched than we were so the push could actually be a self-serving move.
~ F-16
Which old games of mine did you read through?In post 1097, Mina wrote:I don't feel comfortable lynching Ghatokaca right now--too much of their posting and reactions look town. However, my paranoia was resurrected by reading some old games and seeing posts of F-16's that were a lot more prickly and focused on suspects than his bland "look at how generically helpful and eager I am to be protown and spew words at people" tone. (Also saw his MD thread in which he vowed to play differently from how he is in this game.) It coincidentally overlapped with Osseus looking a lot more town and also pushing you.
I also don't remember where I vowed to play differently in an MD thread. Which one are you referring to?
~ F-16
But I am not Emp? My posts are incredibly transparent to anyone that knows how to read me. Quit applying other people's (Empire's) meta to me (Mina as well).In post 1099, bazinga wrote:oh f16 put a lot of time and effort into his reads list!" after seeing emp's lists in asofai!
~ F-16
Not by itself, but the way he did it doesn't seem like he is saying "it is me or them, so lynch them." He is not making a blatant self-preservation move, he is making a subtle one which I find scummy.In post 1108, bazinga wrote:do you think this is scummy given the circumstances?In post 1106, Ghatokaca wrote:I hadn't considered the flip side that if Osseus didn't make some strong push, they were more likely to be lynched than we were so the pushcould actually be a self-serving move.
~ F-16
Mina, can you answer this?In post 1107, Ghatokaca wrote:Which old games of mine did you read through?In post 1097, Mina wrote:I don't feel comfortable lynching Ghatokaca right now--too much of their posting and reactions look town. However, my paranoia was resurrected by reading some old games and seeing posts of F-16's that were a lot more prickly and focused on suspects than his bland "look at how generically helpful and eager I am to be protown and spew words at people" tone. (Also saw his MD thread in which he vowed to play differently from how he is in this game.) It coincidentally overlapped with Osseus looking a lot more town and also pushing you.
I also don't remember where I vowed to play differently in an MD thread. Which one are you referring to?
~ F-16
As for who to lynch, Osseus is the best bet.
~ F-16
In post 1222, Ghatokaca wrote:In post 1107, Ghatokaca wrote:Which old games of mine did you read through?In post 1097, Mina wrote:I don't feel comfortable lynching Ghatokaca right now--too much of their posting and reactions look town. However, my paranoia was resurrected by reading some old games and seeing posts of F-16's that were a lot more prickly and focused on suspects than his bland "look at how generically helpful and eager I am to be protown and spew words at people" tone. (Also saw his MD thread in which he vowed to play differently from how he is in this game.) It coincidentally overlapped with Osseus looking a lot more town and also pushing you.
I also don't remember where I vowed to play differently in an MD thread. Which one are you referring to?
~ F-16Mina, can you answer this?
As for who to lynch, Osseus is the best bet.
~ F-16
That's technically true but makes BRO's role a lot less likely than if he was actually uncc'd.In post 1317, Hanzo_5 wrote:NS cannot read scum at all. Why are we trying to lynch an UNCC'd PR?
lol LOL LOOOOOL
A partial cc is not a CC.
Lets lynch Ghato things already.
P-edit: Everyone ignore NS.
Also, what are you referring to here? It seems like you are using sarcasm to justify your vote.In post 1244, Hanzo_5 wrote:Yeah but ampersand hacent you heard about the new meta being scummy on purpose is the new town tell. No way bro is scum. As a matter a fact everyone who scum read him is now scum per the new meta. WP Bro WP
~ F-16
This might be a rabbit hole but if we get lynched and BRO flips scum later on, I want everyone to focus on Mina. I feel like she is using her waffly town game in order to not commit to positions and swing votes wherever she finds it easy to do so. I know I had a pretty strong townread on her but her latest waffling was utterly ridiculous. Please consider this or investigate her or something because for the life of me, I just can't see her positions making any sense. It is one thing to be undecided, quite another to constantly waffle and make a HUUUUGE show out of doing it. It doesn't feel like any of her latest posts have ANY coherent thoughts or direction and feels like fluff-stall until she can figure out if she can get a townie mislynched. To see what I am talking about, look at these posts.
1009 in particular seems incredibly fake and the whole "AAAAHHHH, AAHHHH" seems like she is trying to put on a show about how she is undecided. As town, it would be a pretty stupid thing to do but it makes sense if she as scum wants to emulate her "waffly" town playstyle. It reminds me so much of Tammy as scum in Chosen Mafia where she just waffled the hell out of the Phok lynch so that Bert would get frustrated enough to hammer. Yeah, I am applying Tammy's meta to Mina, deal with it.
The next thing is 122 which shows even more that she is not committing to a position and pointing out hypotheticals that are simply frustrating to read and I have no idea where the heck she is going.
1032 is another shit post: "GAH, WHY DID YOU CLAIM YOUR ROLE RIGHT NOW? WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS SOUND TOWN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY CLAIM VT. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH." It achieves nothing other than portray Mina as a waffly player that can't make up her mind and feels lke trying to corroborate waffly town Mina meta.
1038, JUST read this post. More "AHHH, AHHH" kind of stuff which is absolute nonsense.
1146 - this one too. She votes BRO and IMMEDIATELY unvotes after Medea votes WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY ridiculous because Medea was pushing BRO all along.
1149: "Gah" - That's it. Nothing else. What's the point of this post?
1150: "GAH" - this time in capital letters
The whole point is that Mina is trying to bullshit her way into getting a lynch with the whole "waffling" thing which on the surface looks good but makes NO FUCKING SENSE.
Her overall stance on us is shit. She just keeps going back and forth at whatever her convenience and it is not even consistent with what's being put out in the thread. First, our reactions look genuine, then BRO's reactions look genuine. There is no actual thought process here, just a pile of puffy fluff packed underneath a fluffy powder and designed to emulate what "town-Mina" might do in this situation.
~ F-16
1009 in particular seems incredibly fake and the whole "AAAAHHHH, AAHHHH" seems like she is trying to put on a show about how she is undecided. As town, it would be a pretty stupid thing to do but it makes sense if she as scum wants to emulate her "waffly" town playstyle. It reminds me so much of Tammy as scum in Chosen Mafia where she just waffled the hell out of the Phok lynch so that Bert would get frustrated enough to hammer. Yeah, I am applying Tammy's meta to Mina, deal with it.
The next thing is 122 which shows even more that she is not committing to a position and pointing out hypotheticals that are simply frustrating to read and I have no idea where the heck she is going.
1032 is another shit post: "GAH, WHY DID YOU CLAIM YOUR ROLE RIGHT NOW? WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS SOUND TOWN IMMEDIATELY AFTER THEY CLAIM VT. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH." It achieves nothing other than portray Mina as a waffly player that can't make up her mind and feels lke trying to corroborate waffly town Mina meta.
1038, JUST read this post. More "AHHH, AHHH" kind of stuff which is absolute nonsense.
1146 - this one too. She votes BRO and IMMEDIATELY unvotes after Medea votes WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY ridiculous because Medea was pushing BRO all along.
1149: "Gah" - That's it. Nothing else. What's the point of this post?
1150: "GAH" - this time in capital letters
The whole point is that Mina is trying to bullshit her way into getting a lynch with the whole "waffling" thing which on the surface looks good but makes NO FUCKING SENSE.
Her overall stance on us is shit. She just keeps going back and forth at whatever her convenience and it is not even consistent with what's being put out in the thread. First, our reactions look genuine, then BRO's reactions look genuine. There is no actual thought process here, just a pile of puffy fluff packed underneath a fluffy powder and designed to emulate what "town-Mina" might do in this situation.
~ F-16
I am really busy right now but I'll probably be freer tonight in about 9 hours. A couple of things I want to address:
1) I think Mina is scum. She "waffled" yet again. She basically hammered BRO saying that she thinks we are both town. Then apparently, she changes her mind as soon as she hammers. It is completely nuts. If she town, I have trouble believing that she is a real person and not a waffle-version of the gingerbread man. Either way, I want to throw her in the oven, bake her, throw syrup all over and put her on display as dead waffle scum.
2) Hanzo read town to me yesterday and I still lean town but Mina's point about how he is so town because he asked to be lynched is more ridiculous than having waffles with ketchup. When Hanzo asked to be lynched, there was no chance of him getting lynched. At all. People weren't going to instantly switch over to Hanzo instead of BRO. While he may as well be town, Mina's assertion is just completely nuts. More reason why I think she is scum bullshitting reads.
3) Bert, I've been busy irl. I had a midterm on Wednesday and have a project that is due tonight. It is fucking annoying how you keep expecting me to work with you over and over while completely shutting me out everytime I try. (Looking forward to you telling me how I am so fucking scum and Mina is the paragon of towniness without listening to anything I have to say anyways). Also, BRO is a good scumhunter but who in this playerlist
4) Ossy, you make a good point about Mina but you are wrong about us. You are completely discounting the possibility that both wagons were town. A lot of others are doing this as well acting almost as if BRO's townflip means we are scum.
5) Malakittens, if you are going to use your ability, my top choice for using it would be on Mina. I wouldn't mind if you used it on Toasty as well. Those are my top suspects. Mina in the front by about a mile and Toasty following along in the distance.
~ F-16
1) I think Mina is scum. She "waffled" yet again. She basically hammered BRO saying that she thinks we are both town. Then apparently, she changes her mind as soon as she hammers. It is completely nuts. If she town, I have trouble believing that she is a real person and not a waffle-version of the gingerbread man. Either way, I want to throw her in the oven, bake her, throw syrup all over and put her on display as dead waffle scum.
2) Hanzo read town to me yesterday and I still lean town but Mina's point about how he is so town because he asked to be lynched is more ridiculous than having waffles with ketchup. When Hanzo asked to be lynched, there was no chance of him getting lynched. At all. People weren't going to instantly switch over to Hanzo instead of BRO. While he may as well be town, Mina's assertion is just completely nuts. More reason why I think she is scum bullshitting reads.
3) Bert, I've been busy irl. I had a midterm on Wednesday and have a project that is due tonight. It is fucking annoying how you keep expecting me to work with you over and over while completely shutting me out everytime I try. (Looking forward to you telling me how I am so fucking scum and Mina is the paragon of towniness without listening to anything I have to say anyways). Also, BRO is a good scumhunter but who in this playerlist
isn't
. 4) Ossy, you make a good point about Mina but you are wrong about us. You are completely discounting the possibility that both wagons were town. A lot of others are doing this as well acting almost as if BRO's townflip means we are scum.
5) Malakittens, if you are going to use your ability, my top choice for using it would be on Mina. I wouldn't mind if you used it on Toasty as well. Those are my top suspects. Mina in the front by about a mile and Toasty following along in the distance.
~ F-16
Way to completely miss my point. I actually think waffling is quite towny, maybe even a towntell. Mina's waffling is unrealistic. I can't believe someone can have a thought process like the one she has been projecting.In post 1538, bazinga wrote:Waffling is not a scumtell! And you know how many times I've freaked while at far from Lynch -1.
Wow!
Why Toasty though?
As for Toasty, will anything I say have the potential to persuade you or is it something you are going to misrep and discount the minute you hear it? If it is the latter, I don't see the point in explaining it to you.
~ F-16
I am thinking Mina and possibly Toasty are scum. I am unsure as to who the remaining could be. Chamber, Osseus, and Ampersand were the other people I think could potentially be scum. I was reading the game when I saw your post so took the opportunity to have a quick chat.In post 1561, Medea the Alien wrote:Your chamber read here disturbs me. Also... why did you pop up only when I brought your name up?
~ F-16
It is complicated. I don't know if I can articulate it well. When I read through a game, I develop some gut reads and some reads I feel pretty confident about are town. In this game, it was obviously Medea/Mala/Bazinga. I then looked through their ISO's/double checked their meta to make sure I am not mistakenly putting scum in my group. Once I made up my mind, I put them in my townpile. If I find someone that I don't feel strongly that they are town upon review, I leave them hanging and move onto the next person that I felt was townish, rinse and repeat. Once I have enough strong town/decent townreads, I move onto the remaining players and the ones I left hanging to see if I can develop any more townreads from there. From the remaining players, I just posted my thoughts on why I didn't find them townish and rank them accordingly. I sometimes tend to have confident scumreads although it wasn't the case here.
~ F-16
~ F-16
I feel frustrated enough with a whole bunch of people that I want to take a break from interacting with anyone other than Cabd/Penguin for a few days so I won't bother responding to your suspicion. Nacho had some things to say but I haven't had much of a chance to bounce thoughts off of him. The gist of it is that he agrees with me that Mina is scum. We'll both get into that a little later. Also, lol at the "beetlejuice" tell. Are you actually that stupid? I tend to read games and go over them a lot while not posting. But if someone I want to talk to is posting, I jump in there to have a conversation. Also, if you actually read my posts, you'll realize that I said I was busy at that time for around ~9 hours and left. It was approximately then that I found time to read the thread and saw Cabd and Penguin posting. It was deliberate, I posted because I wanted to talk to them while they were still there, and I am amused at your assertion that you managed to coax me into the thread. Anyways, I'll stop here.
~~~
@ Penguin and Cabd, I am going over POE again. Still townreading you I'll run down the remaining 9 players in the game besides us. Here are my updated reads.
Those are the townreads I feel pretty good about and want to start POEing from there. Let me know your thoughts about my take on Hanzo. I'll post more in a little bit about the remaining players. I need to head out for a little while.
5) Ampersand
6) Chamber
7) Osseus
8) ToastyToast
9) Mina
I feel decently sure all the scum are in this group.
~ F-16
~~~
@ Penguin and Cabd, I am going over POE again. Still townreading you I'll run down the remaining 9 players in the game besides us. Here are my updated reads.
1) Malakittens
- Her reaction to BRO felt very town and I can see why she would think a gladiator and a vig wouldn't co-exist as they are both essentially additional town-sided kills. I think it would have worked out better if BRO actually claimed JOAT. Her role is also provable and I don't think she as scum would take that unnecessary risk to drive a mislynch when she could have just said nothing, got us lynched, roleblocked BRO etc. So, I am pretty confident in this read. 2) Bazinga
- They've been a source of some annoyance but I can't see Bert taking charge like this as scum. His posts came across as very serious and to-the-point and wanting to push through a lynch. Scum-Bert presents a very different demeanor and there are some aspects he can't fake. Nacho swears Mollie is town so that adds to my confidence here.3) NotScience
- I have two completed games with NotScience and I found his demeanor to be pretty different. He is more awkward as scum especially when he doesn't get going early game but here, his reactions felt very natural. I was a little concerned before that he was sheeping Mollie too much but that went away during deadline when he moved onto his own and pretty much owned his read. I'd be surprised if he was scum. 4) Hanzo
- Penguin, I actually agree with your points about scum wanting to snag the BRO lynch while they can because he may confirm himself later whereas we are still lynchable. But I disagree with Hanzo being scum because I figured he would just compromise on BRO at deadline so he can get rid of the vig who may confirm himself as town therefore wasting an nk. There would be no repurcussions for him because compromising at deadline is a necessity in order to avoid a no lynch. While it is possible
that scum-Hanzo was aiming for a towncred move, I actually felt that there was a very real risk of us getting lynched and as such, Hanzo would be unnecessarily messing with the scum's chances of getting rid of the vig and I just can't see him thinking that he would get so
much towncred from asking to be lynched in place of BRO that he thinks it is worth potentially jeopardizing scum's chances to lynch the claimed vig on D1. It is way too sub-optimal to do as scum. As for the implication that he doesn't have a PR, it is sub-optimal as town but why would he restrict his ability to fake-claim as scum? That doesn't make sense from a scum POV as well. Now consider his actions from a town POV. He had a superstrong scumread on us and was questioning the hell out of us especially Nacho and pushing it for whatever it is worth. His insistence on wanting us lynched makes sense because he thinks we are scum. Tl;dr, his actions actually make a whole lot more sense as town than as scum. Those are the townreads I feel pretty good about and want to start POEing from there. Let me know your thoughts about my take on Hanzo. I'll post more in a little bit about the remaining players. I need to head out for a little while.
5) Ampersand
6) Chamber
7) Osseus
8) ToastyToast
9) Mina
I feel decently sure all the scum are in this group.
~ F-16
My concern with
~ F-16
Ampersand
stems from CES doing the majority of the posting and his motivations are difficult to read. Fenchurch, who is more transparent than CES has made far fewer pushes. Post 1548 for example consists of a lot of deferment of reads to CES especially the BRO read. The last paragraph on Mala's claim is hedgy and tangential. Many of her posts contain descriptions of conversations she's had with CES. She hasn't made any strong pushes or taken any sort of stand which significantly affects the gamestate. In other words, I don't feel the mark of her personality in the thread. I am worried that the transparent head of the hydra isn't putting herself out there as much while opaque CES handles any significant pushes. I lean scum on them. ~ F-16
His whole case relied on him not liking BRO's pushes, not because of meta. His "meta dive" was a skim fest and he said as much in his reads list.In post 1098, bazinga wrote:In post 1059, Ghatokaca wrote: I really really really really don't think missing one scum game means shit at all, especially in a reads list. Keep in mind that F-16 probably read through about 16 games in one sitting (or something close). Keep in mind that before he made this big long list, he was already biased and already looking to confirm or disprove a couple theories: it takes a complete fucking robot in order to release a reads list and actually start from scratch.
He wasn't doing thorough meta dives on everyone. It shouldn't matter that he missed one of bro's scumgames, especially when there is absolutely no alignment relevant reason to do so. What will linking BRO's scumgame and saying "cool, I read it" do to F-16's read of BRO? What will linking it do in thread? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
I lean town on Toasty.
But wait wait wait
I don't feel strongly about it. Still.he didn't just miss 1 of bro's scumgames he missed fucking all of them the only games he is referencing are 2 town games he has said he hasn't looked at broscum yes there is very srs fucking problem when your whole fucking case/read resides on a meta dive this should be obvious why the fuck am I having to point this out?????
NonononononoIn post 1099, bazinga wrote:2In post 1088, Ghatokaca wrote:I think the last read is bazinga, who doesn't get a read, but a counter:
1
you are not off the hook especially since I could totally see you bussing ossy things. and don't even with your tawdry argument that "oh f16 put a lot of time and effort into his reads list!" after seeing emp's lists in asofai! <---- that is who f16 trucks with, players like emp and reggie I would expect no less. so no
I am sorry you are not in a good mood tho
Now we've come to 2.
If you wrote me off because you thought the people I were pushing is scum, then I would be sad because you saw a very paranoid group of people all write me and two (?) partners off for that very reason and you know I have no problems cashing in on towncred and feeding my partners to the blood gods in most situations. I would hope you'd be writing me off because I haven't turned into a completely different person and started to treat you like an alien like what usually happens when I'm scum.
I don't think F-16 is town for :effort:, but I do think :effort: is his way of screaming "engage me, engage me!" and yeah he does get a little hurt when people see that he's reaching out but then he gets rejected because there are too many words.
You really thought that I would be satisfied by you going "I won't defend myself today"? I don't like that you keep indirectly defending yourself with little pieces of "oh, I could just be reasonable and vote one of the main wagons but I'm not because I'm town and scum Mina would never fake waffle on a read". Why aren't you concerned with me reading you wrong? Don't you think I should be able to read you?In post 1184, Mina wrote:It's not your vote that made me jump off, Medea, although it did compel me to unvote more quickly.
Ghato and Osseus are "safer" wagons. But Ghatokaca has enough protown and genuine posts that I don't want to lynch them D1. And Osseus I still don't feel comfortable lynching for meta reasons (and won't unless I do some research before the deadline and find out I'm misjudging UTin before T-Bone has been impersonating him or something).
Already did.In post 1133, bazinga wrote:mina comment on this plz tiaIn post 1084, Ghatokaca wrote:I also think that Mina is scum. Her primary strengths as scum are looking town and AtEing as well as getting away with all of that wonderful "oh look at me, I'm waffling!". I don't like her treatment of the Ampersand hydra. I think that her paranoia on CES is not as transparent or vocalized as it would be if she were town (she gave us "oh this is totally scum CES" and then nothing more) and I thought she dismissed Fenchurch far too quickly for tone reasons and pretty much nothing else (and her paranoia with CES didn't match up to her completely falling for Fenchurch). I also don't like her reaction to UT lately, regardless of his alignment. I actually think its a little less likely to be coming from scum partners since its pretty blatant and horrible, but it also could come from scum-Mina who is discovering there is less heat on her partner than there should be.
Really what?In post 1231, Mina wrote:NO.
YOU CAN'T MAKE ME.
It might not be too late to wagon Osseus...
...really?In post 1228, Ampersand wrote:Poseidon is still probably scum, although I recognise that lynch isn't that likely to go through at this point. We'll switch votes to Nachohydra before deadline if necessary.
Thoughts on Osseus right now?
Doesn't 1230 say different, or am I hallucinating?In post 1269, Mina wrote:chamber, is Ampersand scum? I think they might be. The lack of read on UT is off.
On my phone and will be back in half an hour.Mala is the only reason this isn't a no-brainer for Ghatokaca.Frankly, I find BRO's rage looks pretty genuine right now.
VOTE: Osseus placeholder.
What do you think of Mina dismissing my case and completely ignoring me scumreading her?In post 1481, bazinga wrote:Did we mention that part of why Nacho was/is scummy is cos he's scumreading you and his case leaves a helluva lot to be desired? But yeah, his case is baffling, and I dun get it.
I would like to hear your case on Ghato though
I personally think it was a hell of a misstep; why do you think she'd do it as town?
I reread some of yesterday and I actually think that UT was actually pretty town when he was calling for my blood yesterday.In post 1497, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:We believe all the scum are right here (and they are). I know that doesn't eliminate much, but it might as well confirm Chamber and Hanzo as town to us. With how difficult it was to lynch Ghat, cause seriously he sat at L-1 for the looooongest time, that really re-enforces the fact that he is scum. There's no way town Ghat survives that lynch over a claimed-Vig. He had help in avoiding that lynch, and it's among these players in red. Now, we decided that we're not going to flood the thread arguing for the lynch. Literally nothing has changed for Ghat to even move one inch down the scumeter. To give a brief recap for those playing at home, Ghat is scum because A) F-16head does meta dives to pretend to be town. His meta dives do not supplement his scumreading, they replace it. If you're a town player meta diving, you use that to supplement what's going on in this game, something F-16 did not do. Thus he's faking it. B) Nachohead misrepresents shit. Enough said. C) And as mentioned above, town-Ghat does not survive that end of day blitz. He had help from his scumbuddies. So if and when we want to do the right thing, let us know and we'll lynch Ghat in a heartbeat. Does this sound arrogant? Sure. I realize that UT and I are being a little over the top here, but I think it's necessary to get our point across.Broseidon(7)a Ampersand, malakittens, Medea the alien, notsicence, ghatokaca, bazinga, mina
ghatokaca(5) -Osseus pseudotripodis, Broseidon, Hanzo_5, chamber, zdenek
Osseus pseudotripodis(1) -ToastyToast
There are still seven other players that need to be sorted. My feeling yesterday before the deadline debacle was Toasty, but he was not present for it, so he could not be responsible for switching the lynch over to BRO at the last minute. Our feeling is that BRO's lynch was in no way town driven and that cannot be overstated. Even ignoring the fact that Ghat is in the game for a moment, he claimed Vig, claimed players he was likely to shoot, and still got lynched. That's scum afraid of letting him loose at night.
I continue to think that your points for me being scum are probably a symptom of you developing tunnel fever again: A is blatantly wrong which makes B funny, and C is again, blatantly wrong.
talk to me about Mina, then.In post 1519, bazinga wrote:<3In post 1512, bazinga wrote:only i use :C and <3 so much
idk i like her style its so free flowing cos you dont gotta write so many complete sentences with periods and shit, i do it unconsciously sometimes now without trying to imitate her
okay here some of my thoughts:
I am liking ghatty things even less today than I did yesterday. the mina read sucked donkey balls and I am simply not feeling it. the zden makes sense as a nk cos zden is a good player and he is also a bit unpredictable. the nk was most likely guaranteed to go through since he was an unlikely target for protection. also the random kill thing. f-16 has been skulking around we know he has been on site and I think that he is just trying to lurk the day out. if bro would have said he was a JOAT instead of insinuating that he had inside info that his nks might not go through (cos I doubt tammy would have put that in a role pm!) I would have totally voted for ghatty things cos town bro is a good player to keep in the game. it did not help that mala was soft ccing him we should have just demanded a full disclosure right then and there and bert was hardcore scumreading bro. but anyways nacho also said to listen to penny's read on bro for some dumb oh they have a hydra together bullshit when I am pretty sure I have spotted scummy bro twice! I asked every1 to go and fucking look at his scumgame but no1 would not even bert so I had no1 to bounce the read off of.
I can see them not nking us thinking we might be protected but yet how the fuck did they miss mala's softclaim? I am pretty sure mala is town at this point mina and mala are untouchable for me. throw in hanzo too.
I am less in love with the medeas wagon cos amper people were quick to hop on it and I am just going to be honest I think they are scum. plus cabd justfelttown to me but I feel like he completely abandoned me which makes me lean okay mebbe scum but I dunno. this is the first game that penny has actively tried to work with me usually she stays stubborn and does her own thing I really just don't know about them this game.
I am also not liking chamber. he is focusing on peripheral things and is being obtuse and he just feelswrong.
ghatty things will probably have to go today. sorry guys I was really wrong about nacho in too many heads and I did not want to make the same mistake.
UNVOTE:
I don't really understand why any scumteam would assume you would be protected with a soft claim floating around. I also doubt we would miss said soft claim after referencing it a couple of times as we called for BRO's head, don't you?
I have never cared or been significantly affected when I am mislynched or people suspect me, even if they can normally read me. No one is perfect, occasionally town wander into a mist of their own or scum creation and you stumbled into that mist. You are out and normal again, but you will wander right back in if you keep bringing that game up and worrying about that game and thinking about that game: stop focusing on it so much, give me the attention I deserve, and read me. My bet is that you're going to be correctly reading me before the counter hits 5 even though we never took time to detox from that game because I do feel pretty them right now and will only get townier once we lynch Mina and she flips scum.In post 1531, bazinga wrote:I am in total agreement that amper people look like pondscumIn post 1528, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:Well I mean let's break it down real quick.
Ampersand - Parked his vote on Bro a week before the scramble and it just sat there....despite them not really mentioning why...go ISO them and then Ctrl+F for Bro. This slot doesn't really mention Bro, just have their vote parked there. Like this might sound crazy, but if they were scum, was that the plan all along? To turn things around on Bro at the last minute? The vote was already there, with pretty much no support of it...I mean Ampersand calls several players scum and Bro isn't one of them.
agree she is town yeah?Mala - Reads Bro as scum early and often, nothing really suspect about it. Her vote is also parked for a week before deadline, but unlike Ampersand she's actually calling Bro scum.
there are a lot of ties between ghatty things and medeas but do you think amper people would be this quick to bus a buddy? mebbeMedea - This is the slot that really started the Bro wagon with just about 7 hours till deadline. At that point it was still Ossy vs. Ghat, with Ghat looking like they'd be lynched. Honestly I could probably link this slot to Ghat as scum together. If there was a plan to turn the vote around on the claimed Vig, this is the player that started it.
notty is sheeping me not mala and he is town you can take that read to the bank. he is actually a stronger townread than mina and mala and I probably should have made that clearNotsci - Sheeping Mala pretty much. Also calls me scum several times during Day 1 despite just posting about "didn't call you scum". You're not really going to make me quote you just to prove you wrong? Are we scum or not? Because you were really sure we were for a good portion of Day 1. In regards to the vote however, he says Mala is his strongest townread, and I know notsci has a tendency of sheeping townreads, so it doesn't say much about his alignment one way or another.
I reluctantly agreeGhat - Self-preservation vote and obviously one of the scum on the wagon. Moving on.
yep look at your languaging right there. town waffles, scum hedge. ghatty things hedged on a couple of playersBazinga and Mina - Putting them together because they both pretty much waffled through deadline on the lynches, and I need to dig a bit deeper here. I was reading Bazinga as scum early Day 1 so their waffling at the end might have been to protect Ghat. They said they might have hammer Ghat but we'll never know. Mina is interesting to me here, but in the same position with essentially the deciding vote, I don't know that I'd act much differently here. I think I would have waivered privately instead of in-thread for the world to see.
meh, I still say it was us, medeas was just pushing on bro all day. but what I foundOnto the matter at hand, I think Medea is the player that is most responsible for the sudden turn around from Ghat at nearly L-1 to a BRO lynch. He honestly looks the worst followed by Ampersand and Bazinga. I could buy those three as a scumteam, and it's something I am going to explore.weirdduring that debacle is that it was almost like i had to COAX penny on to the wagon after she was slobbering at his lynch all day
on my homesite that is often how the day round ends; a bunch of people show up and shift the lynch or ensure that it goes through. I have only seen this done 1 other time on this site and it was in xeno2 and fery and I moved the lynch to scummy rach marie but fery is from my homesite and we work well together (despite our squabbles) and know what to look for.PreEdit: @ bazinga, as you can see, I feel like Medea is the pivotal force behind the Bro-wagon and I'm addressing my thoughts on the wagon in this post. I'm not suggesting that the lynch is bad like Hanzo is (lynches are not inherently bad), it was bad in the sense that Ghat was the better lynch I feel. But the way this Bro lynch happened is unique, I've never seen anything like it in a game I've played before, so there are things to learn from it and I won't stop.
there is NOT a grounding presence in this hydra at all. bert and I can wind each other up into all kinds of paranoia fits. the most puzzling thing to me is why brolied, a JOAT is infinitely more valuable than a vig. I know there is a small subgroup that thinks they are usually scum roles but I have been a JOAT 3 times and each time I was town.
not wanting to lynch ghatty things is a direct result of mislynching nacho in too many heads. he was the cop. I missed all of the signals and developed this retarded pirate's conspiracy I mean it was really retarded. when I saw their flip I cried for an hour and nacho and desp ended up conforting me when they were the 1s who got lynched lol. I did not and do not want to repeat that mistake. nacho is my best online friend.
We are both pretty hard to mislynch for a reason.In post 1624, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:How the fuck is this sure fire scum lynch derailing from L-1 AGAIN?
Nacho and Mollie have played many, many games together. Nacho's reads are hardly based on just inactivity although it might factor into it. Each game is different and the way he reads her has so many subtleties and nuances that inactivity is hardly a good representation of it. If you think Bazinga is town now, that just shows that Nacho read her right. You are saying that you expect Nacho to read herIn post 1505, Hanzo_5 wrote:VOTE: Ghatokaca
NS, I think nacho is scum because of his malakittens read and his mollie(bazinga) read. I think that he gave Mala's play too much of a pass and I think that he should have been scum reading mollie because she was fairly inactive in the begining and I have seen where he has caught her as scum for that reason before.
incorrectly
and calling us scum for a correct read when past experience shows that Nacho's reads on Mollie are in general very accurate. We've explained our Malakittens read several times and we'd be happy to elaborate if you you still disagree with us.
~ F-16
I don't feel like posting much until we get those posts back but I've had some time to think about this game.
Mina is scum. Osseus is scum. I am fairly sure about that much. I think Chamber is probably town. While I was initially worried that he reversed his read on us based on something fairly minor like the night kill, a closer look into his posts make more sense as town. His lack of explanations for his reads is overall null based on meta but I've looked through his posts about us and the way he refused to convince anyone that we are scum on D1 shows his uncertainty in his read. There were a few posts that betrayed that he was never really sure about us even despite the outward show of confidence that he portrayed. Among them are his insistence to Mina to make her own decision as opposed to attempting to persuade when asked. From that perspective, it makes sense to reverse a scumread based on a nightkill.
The scumteam is probably Mina, Osseus, and ToastyToast, with an outside chance of it being Ampersand. All other players I am reading as town or leaning town. Mina/Osseus interactions make a lot of sense as scum/scum. I'll do more interaction analysis with the others once we see a scumflip. I want to lynch Mina today. Failing that, I'll settle for Osseus or Toasty. I need to analyze a few more things but I'd rather wait until the missing posts come back.
Bazinga, I think you are wrong about Chamber. Your entire argument there is coming across as more personal than alignment indicative. Take a chill pill and re-analyze. Chamber, clearly you are a smart guy so I am sure you understand why Bazinga is obvtown. I'd like your thoughts about the list of people I am scumreading.
Hanzo, I am exasperated and not at all happy to see a vote on us from someone that is clearly town. We need to lynch scum today. You are voting town because Nacho's read was different from what you expected. That doesn't make us scum. We need town to work together to hang scum today. We need you and we can't do it without you.
~ F-16
Mina is scum. Osseus is scum. I am fairly sure about that much. I think Chamber is probably town. While I was initially worried that he reversed his read on us based on something fairly minor like the night kill, a closer look into his posts make more sense as town. His lack of explanations for his reads is overall null based on meta but I've looked through his posts about us and the way he refused to convince anyone that we are scum on D1 shows his uncertainty in his read. There were a few posts that betrayed that he was never really sure about us even despite the outward show of confidence that he portrayed. Among them are his insistence to Mina to make her own decision as opposed to attempting to persuade when asked. From that perspective, it makes sense to reverse a scumread based on a nightkill.
The scumteam is probably Mina, Osseus, and ToastyToast, with an outside chance of it being Ampersand. All other players I am reading as town or leaning town. Mina/Osseus interactions make a lot of sense as scum/scum. I'll do more interaction analysis with the others once we see a scumflip. I want to lynch Mina today. Failing that, I'll settle for Osseus or Toasty. I need to analyze a few more things but I'd rather wait until the missing posts come back.
Bazinga, I think you are wrong about Chamber. Your entire argument there is coming across as more personal than alignment indicative. Take a chill pill and re-analyze. Chamber, clearly you are a smart guy so I am sure you understand why Bazinga is obvtown. I'd like your thoughts about the list of people I am scumreading.
Hanzo, I am exasperated and not at all happy to see a vote on us from someone that is clearly town. We need to lynch scum today. You are voting town because Nacho's read was different from what you expected. That doesn't make us scum. We need town to work together to hang scum today. We need you and we can't do it without you.
~ F-16
Although Mollie's focus on reading me as opposed to Nacho is actually troubling. She is scumreading me who she has barely played with or interacted with before (I think Death Note was the only game we played together and we had zero interaction) over Nacho with whom she has tons of games of experience both on MS and offsite and an extraordinarily high accuracy in reading. When reading a hydra, it makes a fuckton more sense to read the player that you can over the one you can't. The scumread on me could possibly be an out "
Her reason for scumreading me is also incredibly silly and retarded. She accuses me of getting "beetlejuiced" when I am hydra'ing with someone who she only mislynched twice before and read correctly on almost all other occasions. This is something that worries me a lot.
~ F-16
Oh, wait, I never scumread Nacho, I just scumread the guy I've barely ever played with before
." What is your read on Nacho, in as much detail as you can provide? The one thing I want out of you is a surefire statement explaining why you think he is scum.
Her reason for scumreading me is also incredibly silly and retarded. She accuses me of getting "beetlejuiced" when I am hydra'ing with someone who she only mislynched twice before and read correctly on almost all other occasions. This is something that worries me a lot.
~ F-16
The way you play the game and the way she plays the game are different. You are projecting. Your discounting of meta means you probably would never understand my concerns about Mollie because it is something you can't relate to. My argument stems from the fact that she who can read Nacho with pinpoint accuracy would be trying to read him, not me. Your perspective may be different since you don't like using meta. If it was you in place of her and town, you would probably do what she is doing and read whoever you feel like. So. You think her play makes sense. I don't know how better to explain my argument because it is on a level that won't understand or relate to. I expect her to play in a different way than you would play.In post 1791, ToastyToast wrote:Want to know what makes more sense? Scum reading people you think are scummy. What is it with you and your meta obsession? Just because someone doesn't have significant experience with you doesn't mean they can't try to get a read on you.
If it was a singular slot with someone you had never played with before, would you just ignore them because of a previous lack of interactions? No. The only difference with a hydra is that there are two different players in one slot--and if someone thinks one of those heads is suspicious, then they should call them out.
~ F-16
How are you missing Nacho's posts? ISO us.In post 1805, Medea the Alien wrote:In post 1788, Ghatokaca wrote:Although Mollie's focus on reading me as opposed to Nacho is actually troubling. She is scumreading me who she has barely played with or interacted with before (I think Death Note was the only game we played together and we had zero interaction) over Nacho with whom she has tons of games of experience both on MS and offsite and an extraordinarily high accuracy in reading. When reading a hydra, it makes a fuckton more sense to read the player that you can over the one you can't. The scumread on me could possibly be an out "Oh, wait, I never scumread Nacho, I just scumread the guy I've barely ever played with before." What is your read on Nacho, in as much detail as you can provide? The one thing I want out of you is a surefire statement explaining why you think he is scum. Her reason for scumreading me is also incredibly silly and retarded. She accuses me of getting "beetlejuiced" when I am hydra'ing with someone who she only mislynched twice before and read correctly on almost all other occasions. This is something that worries me a lot. ~ F-16
....fuck. You might actually be scum. Way to make me look like a tool. "Please nix your scumread on me and try to read the other head that hasn't even shown up this day OR night cycle" is pretty damning.
~ F-16
I can't help it if he is busy irl. Frankly, if were scum, I'd probably have let him take the lead as far as reads and pushes are concerned as opposed to weigh my own reads more heavily than his as far as reads from this hydra is concerned. He's not the one calling out scum pairs, I am. But he agrees that Mina is scum and he has been posting whenever he could and there's plenty in the thread to read him off of.In post 1818, Medea the Alien wrote:Nacho's posts aren't anything solid. You're the only one putting forth solid reads. The fact that nacho only shows up when you're in trouble is doing an absolute number on my townread here. Nacho couldn't even be assed to show up in our neighborhood last night to talk reads, but he has such a good take on the game that he's confident calling out scum pairs?
~ F-16
Mina, I can't understand how you can waffle so much because it is unbelievable but this post makes me reconsider. I used the toaster analogy because Nacho was giving me suggestions on how to push lynches through by explaining that all it takes is conviction as opposed to logical reasoning. I've been trying to implement that but I am obviously doing it in a really "scummy" way. I really have no interest in pushing your lynch at this point because I have a hard time seeing you put up the same suspects that I did (minus you) as scum although it makes sense if we are both town and suspect the same people besides each other. This is me reaching out. Please stop tunneling us and work with me because if you are town, I'd say the scumteam is probably among {Ampersand, Toasty, Osseus} as well. I just disagree with your dichotomy of one of us or Medea being scum.In post 1834, Mina wrote:Actually, if there's no more than one scum between Ghatokaca and Medea, and all my town reads are correct, that means lynching among {Ampersand, Toasty, Osseus} gives me 2/3 chances at least of getting it right...
~ F-16
I approved of F-16's stance? No, I had the original stance and I prodded you on it but you ignored me because you were V/LA even though you apparently had time to rant and respond everywhere else. I know time pressure, and I know what it does to posting as town: it streamlines posts, it makes you aggressive as hell and pretty much to the point than when you do have time to post. What it shouldn't have done is made it where you completely ignore me scumreading you (and when I say completely, I mean completely). I expected me scumreading you as town to be a bit more of a slap to the face, but instead you played it off and didn't address it, probably because you had time constraints and you were uncomfortable responding to me attacking you.In post 1642, Mina wrote:Nacho, you realize I'm V/LA, right? That's the only reason why I'm not talking much about you right now, or about lots of other stuff like Medea's claim and chamber's bazinga vote. And you also realize that my vote was on you for most of today? I think your slot has an extremely high chance of being scum, for reasons that mostly don't involve me. On Monday, I can talk more about it, as well as what was going through my head (the time pressure meant I didn't do the best job of communicating all my thoughts, and so my posts were all over the place). I find it harder to be objective about the me stuff. If you're curious, I DID find it off that you approved F-16's stance. You KNOW this is at worst null. I didn't mind your D1 paranoia because of Marketplace. As for your recent posts...does anyone I'm not scumreading (e.g., not Ghato or Medea) seriously think I'm scum and want answers to anything in particular? Because most of the points Nacho has made on this page have been stretching (you seem a LOT more interested in presenting out-of-context quotes or random sloppy off-the-cuff posts as scummy to the rest of the town than in pressuring me on my motivations for certain opinion shifts), but it's a waste of time to rebut points unless someone's fooled by it.
I don't think that Medea's claim or chamber's bazinga vote were things that were more important to responding to me, but maybe I'm a bit egotistical in thinking that you'd care more about suspicion on you who was obviously town then a claim that's pretty null and a shitty chamber vote. Do you think those things are comparable with my suspicion on you?
In post 1643, Mina wrote:WHY IS ENTER NOT WORKING? To add to my post above, Nacho scumreading me for other reasons and arguing that people shouldn't be fooled by my waffling, fine.But letting F-16 use it as the centerpiece of his case is really fucking disingenuous even if he's tunneled town.
Do you really think that I, as a piece of a town hydra, am supposed to micromanage my other head's cases? I can see if I was maybe scum and I was maybe trying to vet F-16's cases in order to make sure they were absolutely bullshit but trying to say that I would filter my other hydra heads is >.>.
What about BRO's reactions were townie, exactly: why should CES drop a suspect that he's had the entire game because they call town names and they call everyone idiots?In post 1644, Mina wrote:The implications should have been obvious. You're really going to stick to that vote? You really think Bro's reactions are scummy? You really believe what you're arguing here? That's really all you have to say about everything you missed? It was a pretty poor post from someone I expect to know better.
Now, what motivation did asking that question serve?
And I think my rant answered all the other stuff about my reaction to your scumread on me.
What exactly was he arguing? Why did you expect him to post more?
It seemed like a pretty classic CES post to me, so your moment of "are you really saying this??" didn't make sense to me, considering you know him a hell of a lot better than I do. It still doesn't make sense to me.
The only information that I give when I flip town is that my reads were genuine: this is the same information I would give if I was killed by the scum during the night.In post 1648, ToastyToast wrote:Also, ghatokaca is probably the singlemost informative lynch at this point.
Yes, we are.In post 1651, bazinga wrote:his pushes were medeas, mala and you guyz
are you townreading both of them?
BRO's strong pushes came at a time where he was strongly scumreading our top two townreads: I lynched the hell out of him in a Micro game because his top two scumreads were us (obvious town), and GiF (even more obviously town). I held back on him because I saw a similar tract: I wasn't sure because Mala/Medea were both weaker presences and easier to lynch than GiF/I at the time.
The worse the case, the stronger the return response should have been, especially when it's coming from a player who "knows better".In post 1656, Ampersand wrote:You did go off the deep end a bit at the end of your case.
Hanzo was already a strong townread for me at that point, and his lynch offer didn't really do anything to change that.In post 1664, Mina wrote:Nacho
I think that Mina is a very reactive, very transparent, very genuine player. I think that she puts a lot of pressure on herself on both alignments, and I think that shows in thread when she is town and I think it shows in the QT when she is scum. She is very similar to Tammy in that she is able to put a body of work into thread, take pride in it, and when she's done sheIn post 1676, bazinga wrote:also can somebody link me to that marketplace game where scum mina apparently pwned every1 cos I srsly want to clear this shit up cos I think mina is so obvtown she is like an innocent child in this game
knows
how town she is, she knows who will see it, and when people she is expecting to see don't see it or when people do poorly in recognizing it, she reacts and she reacts very strongly. As scum, she can't pull off those same reactions unless she thinks the case is horrible: I think that my case on her blindsided her because I hit a sore spot and that's why she ignored me. I can't see her going "I think you guys might be town but I'm not going to defend myself" because me suspecting her shows that something is either fundamentally wrong with her play something is fundamentally wrong with my play, but I can see her brushing me off like that as scum because we're close to deadline, she's not getting flashwagoned. I understand time restraints, but she definitely had time to respond, which she demonstrated in #1096. As town, she would have made it a priority to respond, but she didn't. That's my big smoking gun for Mina-scum, which I hope you'll look back on after we die.Hindsight bias is pretty harsh because you didn't see it then and you're not seeing it now and will only probably see it until after the game when you're trying to sort me later.In post 1689, Malakittens wrote:His reachs out there are more noticeable than they are here. Like for instancehe was begging to a certain extent for youand here I'm not seeing it. So there he was more eager to work with you.
Same thing will probably happen to mollie, but she'll see it before you do.
1) I can read Tammy really well, so yes.In post 1689, Malakittens wrote:To an extent his behavior here is different too such as he was hardpushing Tammy there, but here not as much in regards to Ossy. He is more 'defending' here whereas he was more 'joking' and less serious there.
2) I was the pirate god there, so yes.
I don't necessarily think this has anything to do with me if you're trying to read me.
Then quit saying and do.In post 1706, Mina wrote:Because right now, part of me wants to spite them by not waffling at all on their slot and tunneling on them blindly until they're lynched.
I think that if UT was the only member of your hydra then I would have a townread on you, but you post and remind me where the scumread was coming from. And, somehow mollie doesn't see the types of things you're posting and it makes me seriously seriously sad.In post 1747, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:I think the point I was trying to make is that they are linked, one of them has to be scum. In light of Chamber's comment, I suspect Ghat is still the scum member of this pairing. Based on how the game has gone I don't see a town/town pairing at all.
Who cares?In post 1783, Malakittens wrote:I think I would love to put my vote on you, but it's not like it will go anywhere.
You misread.In post 1802, Medea the Alien wrote:Are you actually reading the same game I am? Because holy shit you'd think you'd read the actual game and my posts. I sure as fuck am not in a neighborhood with chamberslot. I neighborized nachofalcon. I made that explicitly clear.In post 1799, bazinga wrote:but a neighborhood? jesus christ. chamber verified that they are in an actual neighborhood I guess more can be revealed when his replacement kicks in.
Or didn't read, but probably misread.
Anyone who can read me can read me based on the posts I've put in thread so far, but until mollie spends her time in the hyperbolic time chamber, I don't think that there's anyone who can read me anymore with the possible exception of the moderator of this game, where cracks are also starting to show. I think I've probably finally done it.In post 1805, Medea the Alien wrote:....fuck. You might actually be scum. Way to make me look like a tool. "Please nix your scumread on me and try to read the other head that hasn't even shown up this day OR night cycle" is pretty damning.
I show up on the weekends. We're always in trouble.In post 1818, Medea the Alien wrote:Nacho's posts aren't anything solid. You're the only one putting forth solid reads. The fact that nacho only shows up when you're in trouble is doing an absolute number on my townread here. Nacho couldn't even be assed to show up in our neighborhood last night to talk reads, but he has such a good take on the game that he's confident calling out scum pairs?
I wasn't assed to show up in our neighborhood last night because I didn't really have a lot of time to post. If you want to talk, try neighborizing on the weekends or maybe get day talk???
You don't even have the fire when responding to KatsukiIn post 1830, Mina wrote:Katsuki, you want a Mina wagon...
...but have not actually read the game or a single thing I've posted...
HOW ABOUT YOU PROVE THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE MAGICAL ABILITY YOU THINK YOU HAVE TO READ ME AND DON'T JUST LIKE CALLING ME SCUM EVERY SINGLE GAME BY SKIMMING MY ISO? I'm actually obviously town this game to pretty much everyone. (Ghatokaca tunneling on me D2 for a case that boils down to me waffling too much at deadline and not reevaluating is actually part of why I suspect them.)
i was gonna copy over the wikipedia article for crack cocaine then realized i shouldn't google crack cocaine on my girlfriend's computer when her parents are coming over without a privacy setting or somethingIn post 1847, Mina wrote:I'm writing a longer response to your other posts, but your last two are gibberish, Nacho. Please translate.
hi mina you're ignoring meIn post 1844, Ghatokaca wrote:at least you got that much of a responseIn post 1842, Mina wrote:Your reaction to that was, "Lol, die, scum!!!!"
sometimes people forget other people exist while others forget people are still town
hi mina you're ignoring me. hi mollie, i'm town.
hi mina you're ignoring meIn post 1845, Ghatokaca wrote:which is amazing because again, i figure i'm a pretty rememberable guy and certainly worth interacting with, but that's probably mollie's influence again
maybe i haven't done enough this game for anyone to care about? there's no way in hell that's the case, i'm amazing
Mina, this should show you that the ghost of Nacho will have no problems lynching you tomorrow if you manage to lynch me today.In post 1853, notscience wrote:btw I revoke Mina from the townbloc now
(NachoFalcon, Mina)
One flips scum the other comes in
Notscience and mollie will both follow this scumread of mine and grind it into the fucking dust when I flip town. Katsuki will vote you regardless of any circumstance. Cabd and penguin will likely follow my read on you. Hanzo will compromise because he's impatient as hell, plus a wildcard in Mala who will follow my read on you if she comes out of her own little world and leans to trust the crew again. If you're town, this means scum will be happy as hell to vote you once they have my mislynch solidified: this means your next few posts go quite a ways to making or breaking the game.
The chamber/you exchange seems mostly personal and something that you and him should probably settle at a later date.In post 1857, bazinga wrote:why aren't you commenting on the chamber/bazinga exchange?
nor have you commented on cabd's
Cabd's... What? Flip flopping of me based on a post on F-16? I tend to believe he will be regretting the flip once he actually reads and then will go back to lurking, and if I'm wrong, then I will probably just let F-16 deal with him.
"Mina didn't respond quickly enough" would be a nitpicky argument if it was a matter of days, or a matter of a couple of hours, some bullshit like that. You didn't respond to me for a pretty long time (a week?), which is pretty fucking sketchy.In post 1859, Mina wrote:Omigod. I start responding to these posts, addressing individual points...
...and then throw my hands up, because I realize how fucking NITPICKY this argument is about. I don't even know where to begin.
Literally. Your case is, "Mina didn't respond quickly enough to me looking paranoid of her." And you're repeating it over and over, pretending that it's a smoking gun.
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?
This is the most hairsplitting nonsense I've ever heard. Do you think you can read my mind, and predict exactly what town me would say at a specific point in time? Yes, how dare I ask someone a question or call Ghatokaca scum for a different reason first. WHAT I SHOULD HAVE SAID WAS, "NACHO, YOU'RE SCUM FOR SUSPECTING ME WHEN YOU...UM...APPARENTLY HAVE SOME MAGICAL ABILITY TO READ ME. DESPITE THE FACT YOU'VE NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWN ANY BETTER-THAN-AVERAGE ABILITY TO DO SO."
Particularly, "Why are you actually scumhunting when town!you would have been OMGUS-ing at me?" Are you...are you completely out of your mind? You're literally saying, "Mina is trying to play this game like a rational human being. She's scum, because everyone knows that Mina is a raging lunatic who's incapable of not insta-voting anyone who asks her a question." In general, I'm much less volatile than Tammy.
I've spent far more time this game than I should be screaming at people who suspect me. Look at my interactions with chamber. I've actually been making an effort to tone it back, because it's antitown. Do you seriously have the chutzpah to call me scum FOR NOT SCREAMING AT PEOPLE ENOUGH?
Earlier, you were calling me scum because apparently these kinds of AtEs from me are fake or something!
I don't even get it. Are you talking about Day One? Day Two? When is this "smoking gun" where I apparently ignored? It's a fucking huge thread. I don't even know what post I should have immediately pounced on of yours if I was town.
On Day One, I found your suspicions plausible, but didn't like your posting for other reasons. On Day Two, I started suspecting your slot (I never actually explained why, but it's more how your stances changed during the lynch), and outright said I couldn't evaluate the me-stuff objectively. Then you started...whatever the hell this is, with the bullshit appeals to authority.
Like I said, the only part I findout of characterfrom Nacho (since you've never actually read me with better than average ability, so stop lying through your teeth by appealing to some magical cred you don't have) is that you didn't have a problem with F-16's case. That's sketchy as fuck. As for the other stuff...I don't even know any more.
I feel like you're crafting a scum narrative to fit my behaviour rather than seriously looking at the motivations behind my behaviour. And now, I don't even know what to think about this bullshit, contrived rhetoric, because it's so ridiculouslyparanoidand convoluted and completely stretchy that it's weird for a frame case. But you're pushing it like YOU HAVE FOUND THE ANSWERS. Ignore everything else Mina has done this game which makes her obviously town--I'VE INVENTED THIS IMAGINARY SCUMTELL FOR HER OUT OF WHOLE CLOTH.
What's worst is that notscience is dumb enough to actually fall for this. Like you supposedly told F-16, who the fuck needs logical arguments? REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT. BLIND RHETORIC.
I never expected you to respond at a specific time: I expected you to respond within a reasonable amount of time, which is a completely valid expectation. I haven't demonstrated any above average ability to read you, but I have demonstrated average ability as a player, and you have a tendency to regard yourself as someone who is easily read as town when town, or else you wouldn't be able to get away with and you wouldn't have to fake all of your mini explosions as scum when people suspect you.
I never accused you of any of these things: I haven't actually seen a lot of scumhunting from you in the meantime, although I might be ridiculously blind. I didn't want you to insta vote me when I asked you a question, I wanted you to respond to me when I suspected you strongly and gave reasons for it.
You yelled pretty happily at chamber because he didn't give any reasons. You yelled pretty happily at Katsuki when he didn't give any reasons. Both of these tracts seem like discrediting that's accomplish simply enough, since you can channel some of that real rage at stupid reasoning into your posts. I don't think you can do that as easily with me, which would explain why this post is coming off as fake as it is.
Earlier, I said that people were dismissing you too easily because of something you could fake very easily as scum.
You know exactly where the post you ignored was: I can quote it again for you if you really want to go down that road, but mollie asked you why you were ignoring it earlier and you said you already responded to it.
I never said I didn't have a problem with F-16's case: you said that I should have censored him on it before I posted it, which I pointed out was obviously not something that would happen ever. Do you disagree with that?
what else have you done that makes you obviously town?
Yes, I'm saying that F-16 submitted that post without talking to me and that we didn't touch bases during the night because I wasn't really around to talk during the night.In post 1862, Mina wrote:The bolded (and the underlined in particular) is why I think it'sIn post 1843, Ghatokaca wrote:I think that Mina is a very reactive, very transparent, very genuine player. I think that she puts a lot of pressure on herself on both alignments, andShe is very similar to Tammy in that she is able to put a body of work into thread, take pride in it, and when she's done she knows how town she is, she knows who will see it, and when people she is expecting to see don't see it or when people do poorly in recognizing it, she reacts and she reacts very strongly. As scum, she can't pull off those same reactions unless she thinks the case is horrible: I think that my case on her blindsided her because I hit a sore spot and that's why she ignored me. I can't see her going "I think you guys might be town but I'm not going to defend myself" because me suspecting her shows that something is either fundamentally wrong with her play something is fundamentally wrong with my play, but I can see her brushing me off like that as scum because we're close to deadline, she's not getting flashwagoned. I understand time restraints, but she definitely had time to respond, which she demonstrated in #1096. As town, she would have made it a priority to respond, but she didn't. That's my big smoking gun for Mina-scum, which I hope you'll look back on after we die.I think that shows in thread when she is townand I think it shows in the QT when she is scum.very offthat you didn't say anything to F-16 when he made a giant case on me based on me posting indecisive stuff for the sake of looking like conscientious town. You're pretty much describing my behaviour during the D1 lynch to a T.
You're saying F-16 didn't talk to you at all during the lynch? He just submitted that post without talking to you? And then, when you touched base during the night, you didn't go, "Yeah, I totally think Mina might be scum, but uh, you know, she really is that crazy all the time"? Not even once?
(Also, WTF, I've been playing exactly like the underlined since pretty much the beginning of this game? But I happened not to react in a particular way to...I don't even know, something you possibly said? I can't even tell if this is a giant piece of miscommunication and we're both talking about different things, because this thread is seventy-five pages long.)
I guess I'll do some retreading on you, but the recent posts from you aren't anywhere close to what I was hoping for and found your fake rage more convincing in Marketplace even when I knew you were scum.
I'm happier to continue pushing you and getting a read that I can take away from this whole exchange as opposed to cutting off interactions because it bothers you. I'm even happier if you begin to lay down your thought processes a little more transparently: I don't really care about you responding to my suspicions since if you're town we are really not seeing eye to eye on this, I care about you looking and feeling town in your typical Mina way although I haven't really recognized a whole lot of that so far.In post 1867, Mina wrote:Okay, I'm going to walk away from this game thread right now, because right now, I'm really not in the right frame of mind to be objective on Ghatokaca. If Nacho has actual questions for me that he wants me to answer, as opposed to blind rhetoric, he can ask them. I can also actually post what I'd started writing at the beginning of D2 on Ghatokaca, since it might explain my thought processes more. But I won't respond to them tonight.
If he's town, then he should know that provoking me is a complete waste of time. All that will happen is that I get pissed off...but since I've faked meltdowns as scum before, you'll just write it off as that. You're not really going to get a readable reaction. The only reason to continue this is either to discredit me or drown out the thread with noise.
I'm sorry to everyone for making the game unpleasant.
I guess I don't understand how finding it plausible/not scummy translates into you going "well if anyone wants me to respond, I should respond but otherwise I'm just ignoring it". I occasionally get paranoid and make paranoid pushes: when I do so, I expect my paranoia to be addressed as opposed to immediately shuffled under the rug. I understood when you went "okay chamber, we're not interacting anymore" when you two went through your exchange for a while and it clearly went nowhere, and I understand why you would be moving to shut down interactions between us now. I don't understand why you would move to shut down interactions between us the moment I suspected you, especially if you think I'm a competent player and especially if you thought you were obvious town at that point.In post 1872, Mina wrote:Actually, I lied. But I'm gone after this.
Spoiler: Stuff Only Nacho Cares About
What do you mean by this? What's different from normal CES play style?In post 1898, Mina wrote:Stop making fun of me.In post 1886, Ampersand wrote:With an outside chance of Mala.
I finally got round to ISOing the UThydra - I certainly don't see any UTtown in there and their D2 play especially has been boringly monolithic (which, admittedly, makes some sense given their position that all the scum were on the Poseidonwagon but that's a ridiculous position anyway). Some signs of a Toastypartnership too - his name is listed in red in #1465 but then in the body of text T-bone pushes the different angle that all the scum were on the Poseidonwagon specifically, a fairly convenient change given that they had expressed suspicion of Toasty previously.
Goddammit. I think you're scum.Unless you've radically changed your playstyle overnight.This is annoying. Where's chamber when I need him?
Can more of the stronger players start being proactive and readable? I feel like someone needs to lead, and it can't be me because 1) I'm not confident or skilled enough to carry a town, and 2) I'm descending into gibbering madness.
Katsuki-slot, you, Hanzo, Mala, and maybe Medea all seem obviously town. Chamber and penguin have both stepped it up to an extent that I haven't really seen before, you remain incredibly town. Hanzo tone was weird earlier, but his content and passion are still there so I'm assuming he was just trying something new. Mala isn't ballsy enough to counterclaim a vig as a scum gladiator, but I don't like that we're losing her to tunelville because she's being unfairly hard on us.
Notscience, Ampersand, probably town. Notscience seems like his lovely normal self, and Fenchurch's few posts have basically gone against what scumCES's agenda would have been, and I don't really have a problem following his reads minus Medea read, which is fair for people who don't know them.
I think Osseus, Mina, Toasty are probably the scumteam, although I'm still holding my breath for Mina's giant townie wall of wonderfulness.
Notscience, Ampersand, probably town. Notscience seems like his lovely normal self, and Fenchurch's few posts have basically gone against what scumCES's agenda would have been, and I don't really have a problem following his reads minus Medea read, which is fair for people who don't know them.
I think Osseus, Mina, Toasty are probably the scumteam, although I'm still holding my breath for Mina's giant townie wall of wonderfulness.
The same. We didn't talk about a lot since N1 was an inconvenient time for me irl but we went over a few reads.In post 1958, Ampersand wrote:Ghato - what are your thoughts on Medea since being neighbourised: do you find her more town; less town; the same; and why?
~ F-16
I wouldn't mind switching to Osseus either depending on your and Cabd's reads.In post 1967, Medea the Alien wrote:Not sure I wouldn't prefer Osseus if Mina's not viable.
~ F-16
I am generally slow to vote and sometimes don't vote at all until very late in the day. My voting patterns are erratic.In post 1975, Mina wrote:Have you read the rhetoric coming from that slot about me? "Burn the waffle man! I'll be town once you get a Mina scumflip!" Most of their posts on me (barring Nacho's this weekend) have been tailored to other people. And yet, inexplicably, no vote.
I'll post my thoughts about that post.In post 1975, Mina wrote:F-16, have you and Nacho spoken recently? Thoughts on this post? On anything Nacho said this weekend?
Nacho and I haven't talked in detail but I and told him I felt that you were town and that I wanted to work with you. He said you needed to do better to get him to reach out to you. But that was before his latest series of posts.
~ F-16
Suspect lists matter because you have more to lose by going after someone with similar suspect lists as you than someone with wildly differing reads. From past experience, I usually ended up regretting not reaching out to people who had similar suspect lists to mine and when we both ended up town, I felt like if only I had reached out and stopped, everything could have been so much better. Mini 1492: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets was one example where I and Penguin were town, and Nacho and ffery were scum. I suspected Nacho, ffery, and Penguin with Penguin being my biggest suspect, and townread everybody else. Penguin suspected Nacho and ffery (the entire scumteam that was still alive) and kept asking me who I would suspect if she was town. Mostly, I just tried to lynch her instead of considering it and I felt after the game that if only I had realized that if I changed course and backed her up, we would have won. Then there was Newbie 1456: Extraterrestrial Mafia where I suspected Mastin who was town but upon his insistence that we had similar suspects, I backed off and examined those suspects hammering a scum player instead of Mastin and town later won so I have good memories of that incident.In post 1842, Mina wrote:I'd have been more sold on this turnaround if it had 1) come earlier, and 2) been triggered by something other than my suspect list.
My suspect list has been {Ghatokaca, Medea, Osseus, Ampersand, ToastyToast}throughout most of D2. This isn't new.
Although the crash erased it, I'd written that huge post (which I don't think I'd have ever written as scum) saying essentially the same thing, but with more nuance and detail. Your reaction to that was, "Lol, die, scum!!!!"
Then I basically have a meltdown and make it obvious that the more you tunnel me and mock my waffling nature, the more stubborn you make me and wind up digging your own grave. All of a sudden, you've had an epiphany.
I could maybe believe you going, "Omigod, she's obviously trying to figure out the game because of X, Y, and Z that she did." Or even, "her reaction to being suspected looks sooo genuine."
But no. It's that my secondary suspects happen to be the same as yours? The same secondary suspects that I've had all game?
So much as I want to townread someone who does a squishy reach-out post to me, I feel like you're trying to manipulate me.
I found most of your posts reasonable and easy to work with and I don't want to lose the chance and mess it up by tunneling you if you happen to be town and the scumteam is Toasty/Osseus/Ampersand. I know you did mention suspicion of them before but seeing it laid out like that made me realize that if you were town, then we were both on the same track so while it wasn't new, it was still a trigger and drew my focus. I do think you are trying to figure the game out and I found your response to Nacho reasonably genuine. I didn't comment on it yet because I wanted to read a few of your old games to double-check.
On hindsight, I feel that using rhetoric as opposed to building a case or interacting directly with you wasn't a good idea. I worried that if I actually put the time to make an airtight, logical case, you would refute it in a much more persuasive and charismatic way and then everyone would believe you and think that you seem very town and us scummy for it. I thought scum-you would be able to sneak out of it and make me look bad in the process. So, I just kept repeating with conviction that you were scum hoping that would be enough. It was a bad strategy since it was a burn-bridges-if-I-am-wrong type of thing and I think I made a mistake. I should have tried harder to figure you out as opposed to thinking "oh no, she's going to sneak her way out of this somehow." I asked Nacho for tips on how to get charismatic scum players lynched and he said that all that was needed was conviction. I tried it on Penguin in Cabd's game and that didn't work although it was LYLO. I tried it here but I feel I was wrong about my read. I am still trying to figure out how to fine-tune my persuasive abilities. I am sorry for pushing you in an unproductive way.
~ F-16
Yeah, I don't want Mala's shot used either but for different reasons. Using it when the lynch is already set in stone negates any effectiveness from the gladiator shot. Also, I am probably too arrogant but I think I am a good scumhunter and I'd rather it not be used without running it by me first especially if Mala has a townread on me.
~ F-16
~ F-16
In post 2067, Mina wrote:VOTE: Ghatokaca
I'll be back before deadline.
bazinga, what did you decide when you'd "talked it over," haven't you already talked it over when you first voted Osseus, and why were you urging Malakittens to use her gladiator when you apparently hadn't decided? In fact, why were you urging her to waste an ability...so scum couldn't NK her before she could use that ability?
What changed between here and here?In post 2047, Mina wrote:Hey, CES, would you be willing to 1v1 Osseus?
UT, you seem pretty quiet for someone on the verge of being lynched.
Bah, F-16's gladiator post was irritatingly townish.
~ F-16
What is it exactly that makes you certain that one of us/Medea are scum? That's a gap in your logic that I am not following. Why did you vote for ToastyToast when you did?In post 2092, Osseus pseudotripodis wrote:You're ridiculous scum protecting your scumbuddy. I love that you can come in here with a straight face an make excuses for not explaining your reads. "Not explaining our reads is pro-town." BULLSHIT.
Our progression on the Ghat and Medea thing is CRYSTAL FUCKING clear. You're being intentionally dense so you can push forward our mislynch. You're not scumhunting, instead you are content to let a bad lynch happen when better options are on the table. It's funny how your Medea read disappears into thin air all of a sudden. I asked you to talk to me about Medea and Ghat, I reached out to you, and you're pushing that effort away to protect your scumbuddies. No, both cannot be town, one has to be scum. And as their scumbuddy you know that lynching your buddy will pave the way for you lynch. Your play this day phase has been a scummy joke on this town. Ampersand is practically claiming scum in thread with their last two posts, and the sad thing is we don't have enough time to do anything about it. You guys remember this scum claim on Day 3.
I am putting our ass on the line to get a Medea or Ghat lynch through because I KNOW it is the best move for the town. I'm advocating a possible flashlynch on Medea knowing full well if everyone doesn't commit to it in time, we will be the deadline compromise mislynch. I am putting my ass on the line for our scumreads, and then a player like Ampersand can't even elaborate on their reads? That's a scum claim. They don't want scum lynched, they want us mislynched.
~ F-16
I am pretty sure there is scum in Ossy/Toasty and if they or Hanzo are town and have one dimensional opinions of us, that's their problem. If scum bring us to LYLO with an idiot town that is tunelled on us and sure to vote us, that's the idiot townie's problem. I never advocate lynching someone just because a few people want to clear their heads. There could be information gained by lynching us but it is eclipsed by the much more massive amount of information gained by lynching UT and having Nacho and me help you analyze the wagon and generate even more analysis. That and I am seriously uncomfortable dying for utility in UT/TBone's place even if they are town because their reads are shit and crap. They've done NOTHING but death-tunnel us day after day, week after week and I don't think that leaving them alive will increase town's chances of victory at all and in fact may decrease them sharply. They'll need to be carried around like a burden and won't contribute analysis to move the game forward. Our wagon is comprised of junk: UT/Toasty/Hanzo. And those morons whichever of them are simply going to assume that our townflip means Medea are scum and go after them next. Hanzo will probably decide to tunnel Mala who I am lean very strongly town on. There isn't going to be some great "clarity of thought" once we are gone. The tunnellers will find their next target and continue tunneling.
~ F-16
~ F-16
Okay, fuck it. We might just get lynched and I want this out there. I was waiting for night to discuss this with Cabd and Penguin in our neighborhood QT but since it looks like we are going to be lynched anyways, I'll post it here. I've had some suspicions of Waffles since the point where she voted us after saying that she thought we were town and it strengthened my theory that Waffles/Osseus are a scumteam and Waffles is using her waffly nature to give her excuses for not bussing her scumpartners and voting whoever she wants whenever she wants with "lol, I am a waffler" as a blanket excuse. So, I looked through a bunch of town and scum games in detail to see if I could spot any recurring patterns. I wanted to see how well she could fake the logical flow of her suspicion as town when she is scum.
In Micro 134, Waffles was town in a hydra with Empire (Drunk with syrup and Sugarloaded). She starts out with suspicions of four players in her first reads list which comes out pretty early in post 90 which she follows through by voting one of her suspects (Nacho) in post 102. An interesting note is that she does tend to do the "AAAAAH!" type routine as town so I am dismissing it as fairly non-indicative by itself. However, the timing of it in that game seems to be inline with frustration at her own inability to write as opposed to waffling. The first glimpses of her waffling nature can be seen in post 123 where she says that "
In an older towngame Zachtown in the mountain, she was playing as a plain waffle (alone). I do see some of the things I see in her towngames and there is no unreasonable waffling. You'll have to figure out more on your own.
In one of her recent scumgames Anything Goes, she hydra's with Tammy (Temperamental Waffles). One of the biggest differences I've noted is that while she hedges as scum, a lot of her hedging is rooted in paranoia and Waffles is definitely one of those people that are excellent at faking paranoia as shown by their read on Angry Frat BROs in post 399. Her hedging is also more serious as if trying to continue to fuel the paranoia while staying off the wagon. This is a technique Waffles seems to favor as scum as she isn't someone that leads mislynches but carefully crafts the gamestate to have them organized on town. Some of the posts that differentiate her town waffling with scum waffling can be found by carefully examining 1551 and 1693 in that game. In the first, their hydra takes a stance wherein they don't directly want to get themselves involved with commenting on a PGO claim and in the second, Tammy shuts down AFB's suspicion with over the top rhetoric which gives an idea of how Waffles can use the ott waffling to a scum advantage. Another really interesting thing I noticed is the setup which is a little difficult to go into detail right now, but AFB were considered possible scum by many players and the progression of her read from town (with paranoia) to maybe town had an element of opportunism. Another great post is 3293 which strategically starts to launch criticism on AFB who they had previously townread before (I am not sure who wrote it so I won't read much into the tone), and this is followed by a vote on AFB. I could keep elaborating but the point is Waffles as scum isn't above strategically using her waffly nature to secure an advantage. Her waffling here is actually much more overblown than in Anything Goes but I think the type of strategic waffling here actually much more matches her scumgames than her towngames.
In another scumgame, Marketplace Mafia III, she was in a hydra with Faraday (Lost Buttery Waffles), was scum along with Nero Cain and Upside Down in a multifaction game. One thing I wanted to note was that she tries to placate people that she attacks "
Overall, I am nowhere near confident on this as I sometimes am but I think Waffles play here is closer to her scumgame than her towngame. Cabd, Penguin, I'd rather you confirm some of these since I am not super-confident yet but if you independently come to the same conclusions, then
~ F-16
In Micro 134, Waffles was town in a hydra with Empire (Drunk with syrup and Sugarloaded). She starts out with suspicions of four players in her first reads list which comes out pretty early in post 90 which she follows through by voting one of her suspects (Nacho) in post 102. An interesting note is that she does tend to do the "AAAAAH!" type routine as town so I am dismissing it as fairly non-indicative by itself. However, the timing of it in that game seems to be inline with frustration at her own inability to write as opposed to waffling. The first glimpses of her waffling nature can be seen in post 123 where she says that "
both scum lie among {Nacho, Josh, Sotty, jason} and we're on the verge of an easy win. (...and...now that I just posted that, I've jinxed it, and it'll turn out that the Mafia are CES and Sixty.)
" What I am seeing here is that she hedges rather than waffles and is sometimes overly paranoid and never really confident in her reads. I'm also making a note of her post 131 where she says that "I also thought his paranoia of CES and his wanting him to be town felt organic
" as this ties in to a how she seemed to have developed reads this game where she wants players to be town and to some extent, seems to think that is something that should factor into a decision. I also glimpsed into what her more serious hedging looks like in post 202 that her head agreed with but heart disagreed. In essence, her town game comes across as somewhat scummy hedging where she keeps both options open as opposed to waffling where she commits to a position, then backtracks and takes the opposite position. There are a lot of positional changes but they are all accompanied by solid reasoning. Note in particular, how Waffle/Empire hydra smoothly flow their suspicion from Sotty7 being strongly scum to moving onto trying to convince Sotty7 that Whiskers is scum. I've left a margin of error here because Empire tends to be more confident in his reads and he probably grounded Waffles to a certain extent.In an older towngame Zachtown in the mountain, she was playing as a plain waffle (alone). I do see some of the things I see in her towngames and there is no unreasonable waffling. You'll have to figure out more on your own.
In one of her recent scumgames Anything Goes, she hydra's with Tammy (Temperamental Waffles). One of the biggest differences I've noted is that while she hedges as scum, a lot of her hedging is rooted in paranoia and Waffles is definitely one of those people that are excellent at faking paranoia as shown by their read on Angry Frat BROs in post 399. Her hedging is also more serious as if trying to continue to fuel the paranoia while staying off the wagon. This is a technique Waffles seems to favor as scum as she isn't someone that leads mislynches but carefully crafts the gamestate to have them organized on town. Some of the posts that differentiate her town waffling with scum waffling can be found by carefully examining 1551 and 1693 in that game. In the first, their hydra takes a stance wherein they don't directly want to get themselves involved with commenting on a PGO claim and in the second, Tammy shuts down AFB's suspicion with over the top rhetoric which gives an idea of how Waffles can use the ott waffling to a scum advantage. Another really interesting thing I noticed is the setup which is a little difficult to go into detail right now, but AFB were considered possible scum by many players and the progression of her read from town (with paranoia) to maybe town had an element of opportunism. Another great post is 3293 which strategically starts to launch criticism on AFB who they had previously townread before (I am not sure who wrote it so I won't read much into the tone), and this is followed by a vote on AFB. I could keep elaborating but the point is Waffles as scum isn't above strategically using her waffly nature to secure an advantage. Her waffling here is actually much more overblown than in Anything Goes but I think the type of strategic waffling here actually much more matches her scumgames than her towngames.
In another scumgame, Marketplace Mafia III, she was in a hydra with Faraday (Lost Buttery Waffles), was scum along with Nero Cain and Upside Down in a multifaction game. One thing I wanted to note was that she tries to placate people that she attacks "
Voided, if it makes you feel better, you're actually making me feel slightly guilty about my vote on you
" which is actually remarkably similar to the way she keeps telling us that we have been pro-town while voting us instead of Osseus for absolutely no reason. Seriously, look at her reasoning, and NOTHING that she is voting us for doesn't also apply to Osseus. I think the most likely scenario here is that she is protecting her scumpartner or she could even be whiteknighting Osseus subtly in case they are the ones that get lynched.give her hell from us
ESPECIALLY if you lynch Osseus at some point and he flips scum. I was hoping to goad her into bussing Ossy but I think she found a way to slink out of it. I'd lying if I said I was confident in this read (Waffles is a hard read) but I have a reasonable amount of suspicion and I want you to investigate this further for later days. ~ F-16
Well, my concerns about Waffles, I posted in my meta-wall. It is incomplete and I picked up on some null tells which I have to refine. The biggest thing that gave me pause was that she waffled (again) and voted Osseus instead of us which means she unnecessarily bussed which doesn't make that much sense as scum. But I've been thinking of a few scenarios where she could and trying to figure out which is more likely. In any case, Waffles is my major project this day phase and I want to make sure I get an accurate meta-read by the end of the day and that'll probably involve reading a lot of games in depth.
Why Amper scum and Hanzo suspicions?
~ F-16
Why Amper scum and Hanzo suspicions?
~ F-16
Nacho was in both games. Ask him. He'll tell you they are true.In post 2155, bazinga wrote:You guys need to seriously look at those games he talked about (HunterXHunter and something else with Toatsy in it) and see if the differences are actually true or if Falcon is fabricating crap.
~ F-16
By putting aside my suspicion of you in 2096, I had hoped that if you were scum with Osseus, you would be more willing to bus if I didn't call both of you scum together. What's an RI claim? I am assuming you are talking about Nacho saying that we are a VT again. Don't know why he claimed a second time.In post 2185, Mina wrote:Yeah...I won't lie. I look completely horrendous right now. ^_^
Ghatokaca, there are just two things I want to know from you:
-I was serious when I asked about the second RI claim. What motivated it?
-At the end of D2, how exactly did you try to encourage me to "bus my buddies"?
UNVOTE:
since Bazinga can clear Toasty. I'm going to look through UT/T-Bone meta to see how they treat their buddies. At this point, I don't think it is likely that Ampersand, Medea, Bazinga, or Toasty are scum. Ampersand read is mostly based on leading the Ossy lynch in a way that doesn't make sense as a bus.
Scum are likely among Hanzo5, NotScience, and Mina. I am thinking 2/3. Nacho is wondering about the possibility of Mala being scum. I am considering the possibility since I could see reasons why any one of the above three are town.
~ F-16