Left 4 Dead Mafia! (Game Over!)

[Thor665]

Not you, I just can't lynch all these people claiming scum and there is actually town amongst them and that is really depressing

Just for BB's sake, I'll point out he said something I agree with

(BTW, I think mastin is town now)

I agree.

Mastin, you're just going to have to deal with it.

Mastin is being anything but town. Frankly, even the callback of trying to act weird to get reactions remains not town.

That said, I have enough respect for him to provide a chance for future gains, as I feel respectfully confident in my ability to read him correctly. Can't read DGB though, and though AP is here there's also Chess to compete for loud spam that bugs me.

Vote: Dripping Chesskid

Let's do a random day 1 pressure wagon on someone who isn't a lurky derpsack player, just to keep life interesting.

[Thor665]

Oh, and for the people I haven't played with before.
I'm Thor, and I am either charmingly sarcastic and witty...or a sociopath.
Opinions vary.

Also, everyone who claimed scum already is a bad player.
Just saying.
Work on that.

[Thor665]

Not with that vote we dont

You're saying you're town reading Chessball right now?
Or is this just a "theoretically they're valuable later" stance?

How does town mastin looks like?

...well...if I think I have some manner of spotting town vs. scum mastin, and I say I don't have a clear look on the question yet and intend to let it simmer until I do, you asking me to specifically explain the tell now likely defeats my ability to use it to catch mastin due to increasing mastin's ability to try to counterplay to the tell I am using.

I don't really give a hang about secret tells and would be more than willing to explain the tell if I got a scum read on mastin off it - but can you explain to me why I should tell it to you now?

if mastins town game is close to his scum game then we should do no such thing

"Herro, I'm a post that says nothing about anything - like all of my posts thus far."

Hi Sven's post!

[Thor665]

You guys, Mastin just posted but ignored EVERYTHING about me calling him scum. Time to lynch it.

For a game that hasn't hit 10 pages, I'm feeling pretty sure he's town. Do you want me to count the reasons why?

Sure, I could use a solid town read in this soup, since as far as post quality feel I am of the opinion we're still on page 1, maybe the top of 2.

[Thor665]

I feel like when I said "DGB is town", I was very clear.

Awesome! So...what is it Chessball has done that looks townish to you?
Because all I see thus far is bog standard DGB stuff.

The town motivation for posting this in response to Aegor's RVS vote saying he was pushing a mislynch is that it's true, and saying so it partially takes a mislynch off the table, or at least raises the bar on potentially scummy behavior needed for mastin to later push a mislynch.

Ah, but what if mastin and dopog are scumbuddies? Then, she's left a huge honking association in one of her first posts of the game. Which I can see scum-mastin doing because the inclination is to think why would she even go there if they're scumbuddies. But, that's for way past page 6 and if I see a lot of other signposts pointing in the scum direction.

Beyond the clincher, she's playing to draw a lot of attention for doing stuff she hasn't done in recent memory. And there are players in this game who will scrutinize her every post. It would be a lot easier as scum-mastin to stay within her recent town-envelope where doing so doesn't lead to stuff that is counter to a scum wincon.

1. A playstyle change is as helpful to a scum wincon as a town wincon. Also, I don't personally think there has been much of a change.

2. Your other point is an extremely mild town defense equates to Mastin being town...I would personally submit there's probably multiple scumMastin games available including soft defense of lynch bait. Do you disagree?

you could sheep me

I could.
If I thought you had anything worth sheeping.
You don't.

Curiosity + felt like a good question to ask.

So..."no" as the response then?
Okay - in that case I'm dodging your pro-scum question.

[Thor665]

^^^
Agree.

Edit: This just got funnier.

[Thor665]

Damn you new page, spoiler of jokes!

[Thor665]

Awesome! So...what is it Chessball has done that looks townish to you?
Because all I see thus far is bog standard DGB stuff.

comparatively from DGB scum games I see much more relevant direct reads

Can you expand on this idea?
It is my experience that as town or scum DGB offers up strong reads at the drop of a hat and then changes her mind six posts later as a matter of course.

Mastin demanding that people explain their town read on him doesn't seem genuine. He often gets town reads on people for fairly weak reasons, and kind of doubt that he didn't understand why SNK would have a town read on him.

I agree with this.

[Thor665]

I support a list of acceptable zombie food for players to pick from.
I also support it being policy lynches, as functionally it's a very convoluted and weak Vig shot.

In other news, let's vote Chessball some more.

[Thor665]

Chessball is scum.

Your move?

[Thor665]

Chessball is town.

Back at ya.

I don't have a good read on them either way at the moment, but feel that pressure on them and getting people to oppose or support the wagon will be useful to me in reading their alignment and also the alignment of others.

Now it's your turn, why do you think they're town?

Only town has control of the mechanic, so to try and take control of it from those people means you don't trust them and are willing to allow scum to influence their choices.

You are reading the mod's info in the most rose-colored way possible if you believe scum won't be given at least one if not more tools to influence the horde.

Also, last I checked, multiple town players working together tended to have better reads on average - ref: every dead QT ever.

so tell me more about how a proclaimed null behavior makes them scum?

I would submit my statement holds just as much solid evidence as his rebuttal to my previous request, and presented it to show as much. What confuses you there?

Thor is town. Im locking that read in 5eva. Post 134 was a masterpiece.

This means Thor has at most a day before I call him scum

Really? I'll get that long?

[Thor665]

That's true.
As I recall it was decently accurate as a tell too.

[Thor665]

There is no indication what so ever that scum would have any influence.

Not overtly, I'll agree.
There are *also* no promises that no PRs can effect the results. So...y'know, go read his last zombie game.

And furthermore, even if you believe that scum have a way to manipulate the horde, why are you condoning actually giving them more information to work with in order to better utilize said ability?

What power do you think they will have that will be dependent on knowing the names people are likely to submit?

Also, I know last zombie game, as scum, I was happy that town was so haphazard in how they used the mechanic.

[Thor665]

Thor starts bad but posts 175 and 176 aren't cranky, so probtown.

As I recall the last few times we played together you admitted inability to read me - so what is this gak?

Maybe Scummy: Mastin, Dan?, toogeloo?

I'm rather leaning town on Toog.

I would submit my statement holds just as much solid evidence as his rebuttal to my previous request, and presented it to show as much. What confuses you there?

I picked out your statement to capture your stance clearly. why do you think DGB hydra is scum from doing something that you say is null?

Learn 2 skim, scum.

I just do. Or did, anyway. Less sure now.

What changed? Because prior to this you were defending them from me, so I'm guessing something had to shift.

[Thor665]

I think you just ended up describing a good reason Toog is likely town and then advocated killing him.

[Thor665]

Why would that make Toog likely town?

Well...basically you seem to agree with me that scum have some sort of mechanic to affect the horde.
Toog is arguing that there is no such mechanic due to mod and is *also* arguing that despite this fact we shouldn't reveal anything to scum.
What's the scum motive there? If they have an effect he's shooting them in the foot and if they don't then he's also shooting them in the foot. I just don't see scum wanting to get into that discussion in the way he did.

@Thor: Thoughts on Aegor? I may have missed them if you did post them.
Also, thoughts on Dan?

Aegor is probably a very slight town read for me.
I have no clear read on Action Dan - he feels like he's not trying to play the game right now. Let's call it a mild to medium scum lean.

Also, Thor's pretty likely town. His stances are reasonable and well-backed. I really like his approach to the game so far. Pretty much the only thing not to like is the DrippingChesskid vote, and even then, that's strongly Thor being Thor, not Thor being scum or Thor being town.

Walk me through how the Chessball vote is not worth liking.

Seeing several of my town reads in her scum pile was the wake up call I needed to realize her true nature.

What had created the town vibe prior to that?

[4] Rubicon: Vezokpiraka, PeregrineV, Zdenek, Toogeloo
[4] Vezokpiraka: Svenskt Stal, Aegor, pidgey, AngryPidgeon

Seriously, Vezok's the town counter-wagon to the scum Rubicon-wagon.

Any analysis about the wagons as they stand then?

Ah I see your paragraph reasoning thor. But at this stage you can't possibly hope that a so called pressure wagon of one vote will get you anywhere. Or at least won't produce results simply based upon your vote.

Which is probably why I'm trying to get other people to vote them or to justify not voting them.
Which is what started this conversation with you in the first place.

[Thor665]

The vote is what it is. I'm asking why you're so intrigued by it when it's actually just as solid as any other wagon thus far.

[Thor665]

You should probably expand on that thought then - a lot of people are considering me pretty townish and my vote not an issue.

[Thor665]

Attempting to meta mastin will get you nowhere when mastin is arguable the person MOST aware of their own meta on the entire site.

I think

relatively

speaking it's me
You should see the cases other people make on me and cite meta for. That said, I also never really play with my meta, which I'll agree mastin does.

cases are not soley to make others vote with you, they are a tool for which others can read you better, so saying that you dont like making cases because no one follows them is bad logic.

Bulbs post is good. Svens case on Vezok is scummy as hell.

Sven's case on Vezok is bad, sure, I'll give you that. But how is the case scummy? Much less 'as hell' on top of it?

like how do you forget WHY you vote someone?

How do scum lie about a reason and then forget it?

Waiting for the whole game to be restored before I finish catching up.

I don't think Majiffy is scum

Sven could be though

I am basically opposite with you on both of these. I'm fascinated you're reading it that way. majiffy is sidelining himself, and Sven reads frustrated townie to me - what are you getting?

Waiting for the whole game to be restored before I finish catching up.

^ AH HA, THE TRIED AND TRUE

PHONEPOSTING
WORK
LURKER

SITE-CRASH SCUMTELL.

SCUM DETECTED.

lol, you can be town

[Thor665]

Actually, I don't care anymore. No scum would want to set themselves up to defend that pile of horse Smurf.

I am not so vitriolic, but I arrive at similar end conclusions. The whole interchange strengthens a Toog town read for me.

I don't understand why this would necessarily preclude a vote though. I mean, that's the whole point of using your vote, Thor. At least, that's how I approach the game as town.

To put it another way, you could vote mastin even though you're not too confident on your current scumread of mastin and be open to the idea of changing your vote should you want to.

Weird post.

That might make sense...if I hadn't had a vote in play elsewhere. So...whut? Seriously, justify why you found this weird some more.

So, I mean, is AD now 100% town because he's taking an SC mislynch off the table? But my greater point is that Thor missed AD's 71, which was much more obvious that mastin's point about dopog.

You note this but it is literally only IIoA. I agree that I didn't note Action Dan's post here or make commentary about it...but what does that say about anything?

thats alot of work rc, me likey

thor <--- sliding cuz lack of activity

Probably my lack of activity is also what caused you to miss/ddge the questions I asked you in my last post.
Want to weigh in on them now?

I suppose I exaggerate. Basically for the same reason you mentioned in this post though.

The reason is the case is bad, not scummy. Now, it might be scummy independent of being bad, yes. But though I'm getting a bit of scummy vibe off Sven it's heavily colored by how useless and newb he's being, which is a tricky bit of distinction to work through.

Thor: Opinion on Sekai? Im going to go insane if I have to read ffery myself.

I've been trying to get a read on Chessball and people are too scared o vote the slot. I suspect the same would happen with the other Hydra and didn't waste time splitting my efforts in any case. Basically people are too intimidated/bad at scumhunting to be willing to pressure either slot, and that will make it hard to read either slot until either slot actually commits to saying something with legit conviction - which neither has. Both slots are pretty mushy middle for me.

Also Thor has his own way of making people sheep him.

I state 'sheep me' over and over again?

[Thor665]

Vote: Alpakahazard

I don't even remember where my vote was previously and am too lazy to look. Was I still on Chessball? My vain hope dream of scumhunting crushed because people are wimpsacks? I think that was it.
Pretty much I want to do this or mastin right now.

Let's speed lynch him.

[Thor665]

@Toog - wanna sheep me? No one cares about your Zdenek side debate right now and that wagon isn't going to get any traction right now, meanwhile I've got something fresh, new, and exciting to get on - you can hop in on the ground floor now. No free cookies though, I ate them all myself.

[Thor665]

Random thought - I want to do another audio mafia and have ffery participate in it so I can hear him say his username out loud.

[Thor665]

and she has a horrible stance on skype mafia

alp wagon is cool but i am going to #rebel and stay on vbezok

Why?

[Thor665]

@GiF I think those posts are it. We're overdue a synch.

You ought to synch up votes first.
GiF is voting...let's see...Alp...
Wanna join in?

[Thor665]

because if you are going to ask why i am voting vezok/ still voting vezok my response will be to read the thread

I have.
That wagon is dying due to boredom and a weak case and you're not doing anything to change that - therefore you're wasting your vote currently.
What am I missing?

Random note--I feel like Alpa's the replacement-counterwagon to the scum-Sven wagon. Vezok didn't gain momentum because having me defend a player will typically have that effect. So, instead of wagoning a townread, they wagon a nullread--not just of me, but of most players, so that there is very little resistance against the wagon, and that the wagons on scum players like Rubicon and Sven and Majiffy are completely and entirely forgotten.

Wow.
So, on one hand, there are some players you'd like to see some pressure on.
But a null read of *the entire player base* is not one of them because, hey, that must be a scum counter wagon.
A counterwagon generated by...me and GiF...neither of whom you're calling scum.
Talk to me mastin.
And stop just posting 'I'mma scum, I'mma scum!' with every post - it's not healthy regardless of your alignment.

Also there are way too many people complacent with "Sven/Vezok/Majiffy" scum, and a massively underwhelming amount of arguments being made in favor of any of the three of us. Particularly since Vezok and I have pretty much locked horns, and no one seems to be making a single quip about that, or what it may mean for our alignments.

Your horn lock is immensely forgettable.
Why aren't you sheeping me - man who isn't advancing much worth yelling about?

[Thor665]

I'm skipping the last four pages because I'm tired of reading and also got prodded because I was actually reading stuff instead of just skimming/skipping when I got too far behind.
Meh.

Here's what i got.

Sven is now town in my opinion.
Guardedly, so is Majiffy.
I actually agree with the issues raised about AP's reaction, and do find that scummish.
Chessball remains quite scummy though, and is coloring my perception of that take.
Majiffy remains bad also.

I'm actually still pretty happy with my Alpahasoijsdd vote and am not sure where the anit-energy to that wagon is coming from. i see lots of people opposing it and even calling the slot town...but I have no idea why.
Anyone?
Just jump on in here.

Svenskt Stål: ActionDan, Alpazard, Mastin2, PeregrineV, Bulbazak

I think this wagon i sbad, on a derp town, and has at least one scum in it.
Oh, hey, look, Alp is here.
Shock.
Frankly, besides Mastin, I'd probably be okay lynching anyone on this wagon, even Mastin despite him starting to look like town Mastin - that's how bad it looks to me.
Meanwhile Sekai is literally the only 'ehhhhh' vote on the Alp wagon.
Derp.

@Vezo wagon - that sucker is going nowhere and it's going there fast, want to reposition yourselves? I'm accepting sheep right now.
@Sven - your Dopog vote is possibly the worst and least helpful vote in play right now - please move it to a secondary/tertiary scumspect that has any chance at all of being lynched. Thank you.

That's me. Sheep away.

[Thor665]

Who's ActionDan?

Lurkaderp scum.

[Thor665]

Vezok wagon isn't going nowhere.

Dude, do you even lift?

Also I enjoy my status as 'guardedly town but also bad'

Shame that's not the read you got then.

[Thor665]

I skipped some pages.
Is there a wagon at L-1 I can hammer to end this day?

[Thor665]

Oh, and I have a lightsaber again.
Fear me.

[Thor665]

How is he obv. scum? I must have missed the obviousness of it.

[Thor665]

@Sven - a bit of play advice. Stop acting like it's bad that people find you scummy. Your play is markedly anti-town and has been throughout - there's a reason more people aren't reading you as town and it's not because they're all bad players.

[Thor665]

@Sven - a bit of play advice. Stop acting like it's bad that people find you scummy. Your play is markedly anti-town and has been throughout - there's a reason more people aren't reading you as town and it's not because they're all bad players.

get over yourself, you are not half as good as people make you out to be, so dont think you are in a position to give advice.

I don't think whether or not people think I am good has a bearing, frankly, I could be bad at the game and still capable of offering good advice. I do think I am offering you good advice.

and me being anti town is Smurfing lol, my entire wagon is people lurking or being butt hurt (voting with feelings)

try to stop lurking, or do you find posting as scum hard? couse its not really pro town

Smurf off

Yes, i agree with you that people are voting you based off their reactions to your attitude, playstyle, and other factors that don't have to do with you being town or scum.
But I don't think that it is healthy for you to presume that's because all of them are bad players and you're a perfectly fine player.
My submission is that the blame can be equally spread on both sides, and I'm hoping you are aware enough as a player to assess whether what you do is helpful or hurtful to the town wincon and to adjust your play accordingly. If not...then not, and it is within your right to decide I'm crazy. The evidence appears supportive of my conclusion however. If it offends you so much you need to drop f-bombs I'll make this my last post about it, but if you'd like to discuss game theory after the game I think I could help your play move towards at least my perception of 'pro-town'.

[Thor665]

I think vezok is an obvious NK list candidate.
If it was up to me alone the list would be him or Action Dan.

[Thor665]

@AP - Dan is good. DGB would be brilliant but there isn't support for it. The Sekai one is bad too methinks. It's certainly a contentious one, which makes it a difficult agreement.
Why do you oppose the Vezo one so much? I can't read him particularly, and even if he is town it's not like he's been a whirlwind of reads and he *is* a massive distraction to at least some town players. I think it would benefit to have him dead and flipped.

@Sven - being likable is nothing about being pro-town. There is a long list of players (probably a few in this game) who are not exactly revered far and wide for being likable but still don't have wagons run on them for that alone. Whether or not I have been posting as much as you'd like has nothing to do with my ability to spot the issues people are having with your playstyle - you have been posting lot and also seem to be aware of them, so we seem to be in accordance there.

Would both of you support an Action Dan being eaten plan?

[Thor665]

Paranoia? I keep wanting to scumread him (and have mentioned why) but for whatever reason I keep getting cold feet about him. I'm having a hard time seeing Vezok on a team with other people I find scummy (namely DGB).

That's the opposite of paranoia - you're allowing some of your read to color others when they should be able to be considered independently.

Realistically, there aren't that many people outside of mastin, Vezok, Majiffy, Sven that are likely to die to this (assuming alpaca is lynched).
Of those 4, I'd feel ok with Majiffy or Vezok more than the other 2.

I'd like to get a consensus for a Vezok/Action Dan personally. Majiffy isn't bad but he at least looked a little fighty in a few posts earlier and passed by letting you take a comment I had said as a slip, both of which tinge on the townish side with me. I don't think I'd oppose it if people really clamored for it, but I'd prefer Action Dan on the block of the two.

[Thor665]

You all are so full of Smurfing Smurf
jesus Smurfing Smurf

As brilliant as that observation is, I can't help but feel like you should be doing...'anything at all' at this stage.
No?

[Thor665]

See, I'd be helpful, but I'm more in the I-can't-believe-the-wagon-on-me phase.

Judging by the mod's vote count you should probably start believing in it - it is very much in existence and very much can get you lynched this game.

A bit pissed seeing as people are asking for a claim and both of us have to catch up to give reads and etc but what's the point if we're going to be lynched anyways? You guys think you're god-walking, you should be fine without us!

This reads as so anti-town as to cross over into scummy because I honestly do not believe you're emotionally bought into the game enough to want to spite people over it.

[Thor665]

Hey Thor, why are the people on our wagon on our wagon?

A variety of reasons, none of which I find inherently objectionable. Now that you have me on record as stating that would you like to point out any that I should have objection to?

I get emotionally attached when I'm going to Smurfing mislynched

I absolutely hate that Smurf

I don't kick and scream when I'm scum about to be lynched do I

No I don't

And yet here we are with us on the verge on death

Is that a meta defense? Because I'd be interested in exploring it if you're stating it as an absolute.

[Thor665]

But of course, this wagon is solely the responsibility of the person being wagoned, but meh.

Blame is usually equally shared across the wagoners and wagonee.
Especially if the wagon can be legit described as 'lurk'.

Can I have a brief review of why people want to lynch this guy. God forbid I iso him.

Yes, heaven forfend you from doing something and offering an opinion. Wouldn't want to start doing that.

GIF there are like 7/8 at my last count, only one with an actual reasoning besides compromise/lurker.

The scum on my wagon is in (PV, Thor, Toog) most likely

Walk me through your thoughts here.
I'll even buy you some breathing room so you can do it proper.

Unvote: Alpahazard

[Thor665]

I approve.

Unvote
Vote: PV

The Red Coyote wagon is better methinks.

[Thor665]

Then why aren't you already sheeping them?

[Thor665]

You mean like how his read on me makes zero sense, and he shows absolutely no prerogative to scumhunt?

I don't find that to be particularly alignment telling for Vezok.
Especially in a game we have a mass vig where I think giving everyone a list of Action Dan or Vezok is palatable to everyone, as literally no one has really come in and called that list bad. I agree he needs death, I disagree that he needs lynch.

@DGB - please explain the PV case to me. I missed it and no one seems to want to state it when they vote him.

[Thor665]

I don't see how you presume my support of their death equates to a desire to lynch them.

[Thor665]

I don't think my stance is hard to understand, Majiffy.

[Thor665]

I don't find it hard to understand, I just find it dumb.

You know what's dumb?
Ignoring that I've had a vote in play when trying to cut a deal about people and acting like my vig list is also my top scum list when I was voting elsewhere when I made said list.
Derpa.

@Everyone

Since I'm the only one talking about it.
Does ANYONE have an issue with this as the Vig list;

ActionDan
or
Vezok

Speak up now or I'll just assume everyone agrees with me and hold you accountable to that idea.

[Thor665]

If i remember correctly i was town and he was so fuckin wrong.

Not only were you town, you were cop confirmed town and we lynched you anyways.

Yup. And I hard defended him during the whole process too.

[Thor665]

Does ANYONE have an issue with this as the Vig list;

ActionDan
or
Vezok

I do.

I wanna lynch Vezok D1.

So, let's say magic happens and we lynch Vezok.
Are you happy with an Action Dan zombie feeding?

Well, first of all we have to list three names. Having us agree to all put one or the other down, won't necessarily help that much since there could be some other person who ends up on everyone's list. Perhaps that's fine, but I think we should try to use the kill somewhat strategically even if it is partially random.

A decent enough point, though I wish someone I wasn't town reading had pointed it out, who would you include as a third?

I'll toss out Red Coyote.

Anyone with an issue of that one?

I'd love to have Vezo, RC, or Action Dan flipped.

I object. Also one would think scum have a way of let's say DISRUPTING this (aka look at the precursor this mechanic and draw a parallel) anyway. So I think it'd be much more productive to have everyone do w/e and be held accountable later. instead of "I follows plan and vigs these people teeheehee"

Yes, Dan, we all understand you're the most likely scum on the list and that it spooks you.

I'm not hearing much real issue with the;

Vezo
Action Dan
Red Coyote

list.
Speak now or forever forget your scumbuddy.

[Thor665]

I will take all of the above as endorsement.

[Thor665]

I personally am not feeling Red Coyote, but the others are ok.

Who would you proffer as a name that is a more obvious lurksack who needs death?

[Thor665]

Id put BBMolla in that list instead of either Red Coyote or Action Dan.

You can bump Red Coyote then, no one is bumping Action Dan.

Lol.

I sort of want Aegor or DGB then?

Tbph Molla isn't bad.

We'll never get the DGB to sail because people are nuthugging there.
Let's go with Molla, no one cares about him and he's almost a sad lurksack as well, so fits my criteria.

I do. RC is town.

Fine, we'll switch it to Molla - if he is also a town read of yours I don't care, because clearly your reads are weak.

To Clarify - this is the zombine Nom list

Vezok
Action Dan
BBMolla

People doing other votes than the above should be seriously looked upon as skeevy and anti-town.
Frankly, the three above are the only ones I'd accept deviating from the list, and they should still vote the other two at the very least.


I will admit to being somewhat in mental line with Zdenek and AP (sorta mushy between them) Really I want DGB dead, but people are too scared to do that for some reason. I don't have particular issue with either of the other current wagons. I'll admit that Alpalurcksackterrible's meta has somewhat sold me. It's not as cut and dry as he claimed, but he does seem to normally react differently as scum to the point I don't want him lynched despite his poor play. I don't oppose the Pere lynch, though I can't describe the case on him. I mildly oppose the Vezok lynch because it's mostly existing due to policy and, hey, we have a ruddy vig system so policy lynches are sort of extra 'meh' at this stage.

[Thor665]

I still don't get why people consider controlled vig kills any different from lynches. Ever. But they do.

Because with the random mechanic they lack actual wagon analysis info.
Making them quite different.

[Thor665]

Thor please take me off the list, I'm important, thank you.

Meh.
Don't care about soft claim, agree that you're a lurksack.
If you don't want to be a Vig target get involved and don't try to skate by because "I'mma powah!" because, franly, I'd rather kill power roles and have involved active vanilla town, than kill VTs who are active and have lurksack PRs.
PRs are only useful as claims to stop mislynches most of the time anyway, because mods seem to think both Cops and Godfathers make sense in a setup together.

To Clarify - this is the zombine Nom list

Vezok
Action Dan
BBMolla

Nope.

Who would you recommend and why? Because that list looks pretty excellent to me.

[Thor665]

RC/AD/Pidgey or RC/AD/Bulba imo.

I'm indifferent on Bulba and am town reading Pidgey.
I don't like that you rule out Vezok.

I'm happier to have Bulba's support since he's down with Vezok, and his support wants you nomed over RC, and I really don't care one whit between you or RC.

[Thor665]

@BB - You don't have the sway to rule out Vezok. He needs lynch or vig, preferably Vig since I think the wagon is dumb.
Post Count is also hardly a true proof of lurksackness. A lot of the people posting less than Chessball have provided more relevant game opinions than either Chessball or you.

@Sekai - I don't care that you don't like it, I think it needs to be done and thus *someone* needs to strongarm it because the town can barely agree on a lynch. Hell, even look at you, you're talking about it now, which I submit is a good thing. If I hadn't done spit no one would be talking about it. Get over your generic and meaningless "oooh, strong arm" tell of meaningless buzzword and either present an actual issue or tow the line. This isn't rocket science, it's mafia.

I agree with your Mastin point, but like Chessball, it's just not going to get enough agreement, and frankly if I wanted to fight for one of them it would be for Chessball, heck, I might be townish on Mastin currently, really he's probably just in null soup so I don't even particularly support his eating myself.

New Zombie Nom List

Vezok *or* Pere (presumption is we lynch one of them, nom nom other)
Action Dan
Rubicon

[Thor665]

I still think that we should not specify all three people who everyone votes, so that we can try to use it as a targeted vig for one person that everyone votes.

I don't hate this idea, but I see no issue not to equally weigh a pile of them. The only way I think it makes a difference is if scum get to flat out vote as well, and fluff seems to suggest that's rather unlikely.

[Thor665]

Fair enough. Rubicon certainly lurked away all the towncred I was willing to throw at him.

I went back and looked nd all I had as interactions with him particularly was he mindlessly defended Chessball. I'm pretty happy with that being dead when paired with lurksack.

[Thor665]

Hammer intent

Zombie Nom List

Action Dan (top pick)
Rubicon
Red Coyote

(basically people seem to like Vezok's claim, and I'm fine with that, and we'll leave Bulba off because I don't expect that to be a buddy interaction, we tossed in a top choice for the sake of Vezok's theory role, and Red Coyote because...meh, Red Coyote, he's a lurksack, he deserves to be there, and other people have listed him as worthy of death and besides random gut reads there's no reason to not have him there.

I would highly entertain a Chessball inclusion...but I'd like to hear people come out strong on that one because otherwise I tend to expect people to break with the list because they just sorta like DGB/Chesskid and will claim (falsely, though they believe it) ability to read either head in any meaningful way, and will choose to overlook the painful anti-town lurk of the slot.

I will admit it's not a great inclusion simply because if Pere really is scum then we wouldn't want it on the list, but maybe we could do a RC/Chessball either or setup or something depending on the Pere flip. Meh, mostly I just want them on the list.

[Thor665]

Amazingly yes.
And, also shockingly, they re not town reading you.
Amazing, I know. They must all be really bad players.

[Thor665]

ActionDan is town, nice try, ScumThor.

Good thing I'm getting him eaten then, huh?

[Thor665]

I will be submitting SBC for sure tonight.

You're not a special snowflake, stick to the plan, that's the point of the plan.

I'll likely be flippant and change my submits around because Im speshul.

You're also not a special snowflake. Stick to the plan, that's the point of the plan.

[Thor665]

Isnt that hammer

I don't think so. Besides, I called dibs on Mjolnir.

[Thor665]

@AP - That's awesome.
You stick to the plan anyway.

And am I? Maybe I am, so much the better.

[Thor665]

If he has me down for voting it's an incorrect vote count. I shouldn't be voting anyone.

Lesson: Thor is right, Mod/AP is wrong.

[Thor665]

[9] PeregrineV: dopog, BBMolla, Sweatingchessball3, Alpazard, GuyInFreezer, Zdenek, Thor665, Aegor, RedCoyote

@Mod - I'm pretty sure I'm not voting anyone.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Alpahazard

This is my last vote or unvote.

[Thor665]

You're not a special snowflake, stick to the plan, that's the point of the plan.

I never agreed to the plan, and the plan was never really discussed. I love plans. I am happy to follow a plan. But I will not just do what you want for no reason, which is what you are asking.

What don't you like about the plan?
I invited people to discuss it - I didn't want you to take that as a "I don't want people to discuss it" request. I really meant the opposite when I said I wanted people to weigh in. I'm odd like that.

I mean, the three names on there, are you really town reading one of them so strongly that you don't think they should be there?
I'd be fascinated to hear about that, as I don't think any of the names have come close to town telling.
Heck, some of them have barely managed to prove they're playing the game.

[Thor665]

Um why is vezok's claim a town claim again?

Like, literally I don't get it.

Agreed. I really don't believe his claim.

Also very unclearly explained and seems really weak for a SI.

Didn't either of you play in the last game?

[Thor665]

Like, go read the last game, study the "power level" of the PRs and how they were built, and then come back and tell me you don't think it makes sense in this game.

[Thor665]

1) There was a spiritual predecessor.
2) Then take my word for it - your reasoning is specious and without merit.

[Thor665]

I want SCB dead more than all of those. In fact, I said that slot was my top nom in 1604, which was earlier than your post with your noms. So I am going to go ahead and follow the plan I laid out.

If Pere flips scum she is a provably bad choice.
If you wanted your plan to be followed you should have advocated your plan.
Stick to the plan, that's the point of the plan.

Because it's been a while since I have. Annoyed but not really upset, since it's just a game. And the lack of actual playing annoys me.

[Thor665]

WELP.

PV is even more town than Vezok. What do.

[Thor665]

Except that he actually doesn't really say anything in that post.
I can understand deciding the vibe is townish, but more townish than Vezok? I'm flabbergasted.

[Thor665]

The indigence, the annoyance, the blatant trolling and lack of care about being lynched. All town. Especially from PV.

Expand?

[Thor665]

Sven is a dumb wagon.

Weren;t you going to clarify Pere for me?

[Thor665]

Where have I "not played" in the last 65 pages?

Well...the first 63 come to mind as an example.

Alpaca/GIF/Ffery/Majiffy/SCB are all good scumpicks I think.

Alp isn't - don't you remember the meta defense. if I bother to not be lazy people need to bother to remember the results of my work.

Same goes for you Zed.

@AP - So basically he's so anti-town he's town. Meh...how much meta examples of this are you drawing from? My experience with PV is that he's pretty lurktastic and anti-town across the board lately. I haven't pinged to it as alignment related.

@Mastin - I'll openly admit to not moving my vote till town figures out where their nuts are. Then, if AP manages to sell me on Pere, I'll move.

[Thor665]

Thor- Im sorry but i AM lazy and i have other stuff to catch up with, so can you explain what makes Vezok's claim more town than not?

Because it makes a lot of sense to me in the way Vezok designs the game, so I think the PR is totally legit. At that stage I can believe that scum possibly got that PR power wise...but on the flip side, it's a ruddy zombie, so that would mean that town would have to get that zombie with that power, and then scum get a human who can duplicate the power? Meh...or maybe it's a human who has that power and a zombie fakeclaim...meh... I have to squint a lot less to see it as a town role than a scum role, ergo it is more likely to be a town role.
Make sense?

Well...the first 63 come to mind as an example.

Generic complaining does not become you. I've posted, so you can use those actual posts as support for your claim. Please do so.

I wasn't talking posts, I was talking pages. Like, your contribution to the game thread in page 64+ is dramatically increased compared to you in 1-63, and anyone who thinks otherwise is insane, lying, or bad at reading the game.

Also, before day closes, I hope to have a better grasp of Thor's posting. I'm offput by his focus on the town nks and the way he's trying to shape the three submissions, but there are other things he's posted that I feel are kinda towny. Some distance and review may change that read.

Yes, how "off putting" that I'm actively willing to discuss my thoughts about who should be vigged. So, y'know, in *addition* to talking about lynches I'm actually actively forcing people to engage me about even more flip related discussion. How very strange of me. How very difficult to consider that scumhunting. How shocking and hard it is to deal with a player talking about which players he wants to kill...I mean, there is *nothing* there that is remotely similar to lynching and certainly the total lack of presented opinions on him leaves it a black hole, because Thor is just not talking about...stuff...it's off putting!

Vote: Sekai

He says him being dead is good for the town.
I figure if he's telling the truth, let's kill him, and if he's scum playing reverse psychology, let's kill him.

Mollie feels confident there's a difference in my town and scum play. Maybe you can find that key and apply it to Thor.

Mollie also claims to be able to read me...despite evidence to the contrary.

I think Mastin is townish.
Pidgey is obv. town.
I'm actually sheeping a Vezo vote...oh dear gawd.

[Thor665]

Nom-nom List

Action Dan *or* Sekai whichever doesn't get lynched.
Rubicon
_____________? (I'm sorta leaning Guy in Freezer at this stage, honestly. Thoughts?)

[Thor665]

Action Dan is a claimed PR
Rubicon I'm okay with
Sven?

1. Nah, he's a softclaimed PR, so who cares?
2. Huzzah.
3. I'm mildly town on him, plus he feels pretty active to want to eat over night.

Rubicon I'm ok with.
I'd rather not try to kill AD.
BBmola and Zdenek ?[/quote]
1. Huzzah
2. Good lord, why? He's a scumread for many and is posting nothing but mild defense and snarky attacks...oh, and a softclaim, because that's how town plays. Plus, y'know, alternate leading wagon.
3. Zdenek I think is town, I could go for BBMolla pretty easy.

SCB

Not against that either, and the surge seems to be rising on them.

Nom-nom list

1. Action Dan *or* Sekai
2. Rubicon
3. Chessball

BBMolla is in possible contention for that 3rd spot, so probably people should weigh in on their BBMolla/Chessball reads.

[Thor665]

I had 34 posts in pages 1-63, and 9 posts in the last 14 pages. That's about one every 2 pages or so.

As for reads, they've evolved somewhat, but none of them are strong.

In summary, I disagree.

Oh, of course, because *number* of posts equates to the quality of posts.
^^^
Sarcasm

Vote: RedCoyote

Don't see a sekai case, and most of her posts read town to me.

As for brain chomping?
Rubicon
Chessball
Alpacazard

But may also chomp Toog replacement. Toog was an early-expectation townread, and his replace out leaves a greater burden on his replacement.

I did meta research to clear Alpaca pretty hard. Please either disprove my research or pay better attention to the thread. I strongly oppose that choice.

Whether or not you see Sekai, as a counter wagon why do you oppose the chomping?
I suppose we should actually do a three way with those, because if say the counter wagon flips scum we shouldn't munch on the alternate wagon, but that's about the only logic I see to opposing it.

[Thor665]

Stop trying to vig me Thor, just nightkill me if you want me dead that bad, jesus

I would, but I don't like my odds for magically nabbing a Night Kill ability.
Maybe I'll give it a whirl though, y'never know.

Which of those 34 was I not looking for scum?

Are you serious, dude? Okay, fine, let's play the game - how about your Sven push, including posting up scum meta of Sven that had nothing to do with your push and you din't admit that till someone asked you about it. How about that, that was pretty useless and bad. There's my example.

Never saw where you did Alpacazard meta research. I saw this.

Walk me through your thoughts here.
I'll even buy you some breathing room so you can do it proper.

Unvote: Alpahazard

Are you...I don't even know why you are asking me about old parts of the game since apparently you skimmed through them all and yet feel your contribution was magical and I'm a fool for thinking otherwise.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5721783
Here's where I asked about.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5724529
Here's where I first revealed my conclusions from the effort.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5726525
Here I mention again, even in a post I'm also talking about you, so even your skimming should have hopefully got you to notice it.

Since the zombie horde is intent on killing me tonight, why don't you guys grab your balls and just lynch me. I'm vanilla. I'm expendable.

I'm not into mafia as much as I used to be, so this stupidity about sending me the horde at night instead of actually lynching me is stupid beyond words.

Just do it already. You'll see that I'm town, THEN PLEASE SEND THE HORDE AFTER THE PLAYERS THAT WERE LOBBYING TO SEND THE HORDE ON ME.

I increase my scum read of you from this reaction.

[Thor665]

Nom List

Action Dan *or* Sekai, whichever we don't lynch (unless the one we lynch flips scum, in which case choose BBMolla)
Rubicon
Chessball


I *really* like this iteration of the list.
As a bonus it also includes the people kind of meaningless whining about being on the list without doing much else. Which, y'know, seems the definition of good inclusion for names on the list.

[Thor665]

It also includes *two* separate players that have requested death as a strategy for helping town.
This list cannot get much better.

[Thor665]

I like the list but maybe take off rubicon for like, sven or mastin.

Take off Rubicon? You're literally the first person to suggest that, I don't like them odds.

FTR, mastin's herpaderp about "Well I would be scumreading AP if not for the softclaim" is some Smurf. Scum motivated Smurf.

Maybe, though it does sound in line with some of the usual herpaderp he does post - he's often about making weird commentary. I dunno, I don't love it either but a lot of the rest of his posting is feeling more like town Mastin to me at this stage.

THOR IS SCUM

I GUARANTEE IT

Meanwhile, let's get this over with.

VOTE: SweatingChessball3

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ng_as_Town
My thoughts.
I'll choose to take this as a scum claim though.

Have you thought about this aspect of the players you're choosing and do you disagree with ^ this assessment?

There's a difference between being better later in the game (most players are...in fact, I don't think I can name a player who isn't...maybe AP in full WIFOM paranoia mode...? Meh) and being feth useless.

You guys are being feth useless.

make sense?

[Thor665]

@Pidgey - I'll lie and say I like you if we leave Rubicon on the list. He makes sense there.

Can you try to put the Red Coyote read into words? I see that slot doing nothing and saying less. I'm surprised people have any read on it, much less a town one. Can you point to whatever is twinging your gut?

[Thor665]

There's a reason I only ever sign up for one large at a time.
You should clearly sign up for zero.

Your 4-6 hours of catching up would be a lot less difficult if you'd tossed in an extra 12 minutes a day since game start you'd have maybe 1-3 hours.
I will agree with you that people post too much, and, specifically, spam too much.
But you knew that coming in.

Are you voting Action Dan right now?
You better be.

[Thor665]

Additionally, the mastin wagon is larger than the AD wagon, Thor. It doesn't appear that even you're voting AD according to the last VC and your posts since.

Do you think the Mastin wagon actually holds water?

...uh, no. Way to completely side-step my point? (And to continue calling me useless AND pushing to get me killed even after I catch up, post a wall explaining my thoughts, and start trying to get involved in the conversation... you know, all the things you wanted me dead for not doing.)

Do you or do you not acknowledge that Large Theme Day 1's move too fast for a lot of players to keep up with?

Do you or do you not acknowledge that this doesn't mean a person isn't a good player or won't make valuable contributions to the game later?

1. Yes, I agree you have attempted to step up your presence as I have made noise about you on the death list.
2. I think they move slow while being clogged with pages and pages very quickly - I don't think this comes as a shock to anyone, I knew when i signed up that it was going to happen.
3. I don't see what this has to do with anything, but yes, i agree with you that players will be more helpful late game than early game. I said this already. Oddly though, some players are able to "do anything at all" during early game too - they rarely end up on Vig lists. Pretty odd, I know.

-.-

Do you realize how irritating this is?

Is it more or less irritating than people voluntarily signing up for a time commitment to a game and then not participating when the entire concept of the game is to gauge and read people?

Thor is a cold SOB, Rubicon, that's for sure. I respect that though, because he treats everyone that way for the most part.

I am theoretically fairly jovial, that was my early meta. I've just become less willing to excuse people for their failings.
Also, quite frankly, people are whining that they're on the death list for not participating...which, really shouldn't come as a shock to them. And the argument "but I'll eventually become useful at some indeterminant point in the future" just begs the question "then why aren't you being useful right now"
Like you, you're going to catch up? Really? Then why aren't you caught up now. It's silly, and it's not worth my time to consider as a reason to not put you on a vig list.
That's half the ruddy point of a vig list.
And I'd like to think any town players doing what you and Rubicon are doing understand that what you're doing is pro-scum, and thus why you belong on said list.

But basically red coyote had a lot of my early reads for similar reasons so that's why I'd think he is town. I concur that his end day has been weak but that can be for multiple reasons. I won't really be super sad but i'd expect him to be town at this point.

I have to say, that sounds like reasonable grounds for having him on the list rather than off it.

[Thor665]

I know you're troubled that I've nailed your entire team but you're just going to have to settle for NKing me Pidgey.

How does Pidgey look scummy? I *really* don't see it.

[Thor665]

Incompatible reads re: myself and Vezok. Plus his read of me in general, which started as OMGUS and continues as... OMGUS.

He opens his mouth and thoughts come out - that is called 'town' last I checked.
OMGUS isn't scummy.

Thor, thoughts on what I say about mastin in 2004?

Basically you complain that he typed a lot without saying much.
In my opinion that is called "mastin's posting" and didn't really deserve much comment. Functionally you did the same thing as him because you didn't just come out and flat out say he was fluff posting even though that appears to be your drive, instead you asked people if they understood what he was saying...
Meh.

1. Yes, I agree you have

attempted

to step up your presence as I have made noise about you on the death list.

Exactly. Why do you want me dead, then?

Dunno, wonder if there's something in what I've said...

So did I. That's why you sharing time management advice as though you know something about our lives is Smurfing irritating.

It's irritating to me that people sign up for games and then complain that they don't have time to play the games.
So I guess we can just both be irritated.
Mine is based on people living up to what they said they could live up to though. Yours is based on awareness that I'm correct, but apparently not wanting to be reminded about it because you are willing to say it's happening.

The point is that vig lists are usually for players who are either scum, or for the kind of policy lynch-type player who is useless / can't be read later / is a liability? And not, you know, for ruining the game for good town players just because they didn't meet Thor's lofty standards for Day 1 content.

Multiple people are calling you scummy.
Multiple people are suggesting your contribution is lackluster.
I am one of them, and I am also one of them willing to be loud about it and to make you dead. You'll notice that there are a lot of players that no one is suggesting end up on the list. Oddly not all of those players are the highest posters. Some of the names on the list *are* some of the highest posters. I have said many times to many people that there is a difference between providing posts and providing content. You'll note that multiple people are reacting to me and what I'm doing in thread. There is only one person (me) reacting to you. That's also a difference.

I don't like that Thor was leaving RC off the zombie-kill list. I'm not sure I believe he would defend a buddy so blatantly, and I'm more inclined to think that it's scum trying to gain credibility by not pushing for the death of someone they know is likely to flip town today.

Whut?

Zombie Nom List

Action Dan (top pick)
Rubicon
Red Coyote

I'll agree the list keeps changing, but to cite me as not having him on the list when there was a point I was looking to end the day with him on the list?
Read m0ar.

[Thor665]

@Zed - heck, didn't he do a claim *because* of my list? I'm pretty sure I remember that happening too.
Meaning he was at least pretty convinced I wanted him dead.

[Thor665]

The idea of reading the pair of you in ISO fills me with no joy.
Can't you just tell me how "he's doing it"?

Because I've played with town Pidgey, and this feels exceedingly like town Pidgey to me.
Heck, your case against him even feels like the case he had on him.

@AP - what was the Pidgey case? I'm not crazy in recalling it from that one game as his chronic foot in mouth situation, right? Because that's what I recall. It was like 'oh, Cop said he's town...but he says stuff that doesn't add up, must be a GF" right?

[Thor665]

@Zed - I showed already that what you were saying about me was untrue. If you want to see if something I claim to remember is or isn't legit in connection to a point you raised that I already showed was based on a false premise then feel free to do the research yourself.

@Majiffy - Even if I agree with you 100% about that, and I probably mostly do...I don't think that says anything about his alignment.

[Thor665]

LOL Thor.

Nom List

Action Dan *or* Sekai, whichever we don't lynch (unless the one we lynch flips scum, in which case choose BBMolla)
Rubicon
Chessball

LOL Zdenek, so...what you meant when you accussed me was "Thor keeping RC off the Nom list in it's current iteration is probably because he's scum trying to avoid flipping town even though earlier in the day he had him on the Nom list.
Because if that's what you meant then...whut?

How does this make any sense? If scum don't have a mechanic to affect the horde, then town could try targeting more precisely, which would be a plus, and all of us submitting the same three names would be shooting town in the foot, not scum.

How can we be more precise unless we submit the same three names? I don't follow.

@Majiffy - I never said he was a dynamic and brilliant town. I just said I was reading him as town and that your case was weak.

[Thor665]

I'm serious though, what were you accusing me of in regards to RC and the Nom list? I thought you said I was intentionally leaving him off, and I showed I wasn't, so is it now that I'm leaving him off recently...and what sort of tell would that even be?

[Thor665]

Thor, I'm serious too. If you want to have a reasonable discussion about this, start with where RC claimed.

How is that relevant since you made said accusation before I said that?
Someone claimed in fear of my list at an earlier stage in this game day - my recollection says it was RC, if it wasn't him then it was someone else on the list who claimed out of fear of the list. No, I won't go digging to find you the link.

[Thor665]

Thor, I didn't like that you left RC off the zombie-kill list. You did it in post 1982 acting as through AD was going to be a likely lynch today, which as far as I can tell, he's not, and he is certainly not being aggressively wagoned.

AT the time, my opinion was, he was the more likely to go through wagon. I'm sorry my ability to predict the future differs with yours?

You posting a list from 300 posts ago with RC on the list does not change any of that. What makes your objection even more irrelevant is that that RC wasn't on your list in 1569, the list before the one you quoted.

Well...I actually think it does matter, when your theory is that I left him off for evil purposes. Especially if you're now admitting that the list has been highly fluid and had names bouncing on and off of it since it first showed up. By the same logic you could then take any name that bounced on and off it and call me scummy in my relation with that name. Whoop-dee-doo.

Whether RC claimed is relevant because you tried to defend the fact that you are in fact attacking him by suggesting that he was so afraid of the list that he claimed. Well, we don't need to discuss it, but he hasn't claimed, as far as I can tell.

I still don't see how that's relevant unless your theory is I forgot that my scumbuddy/town player I was distancing from did or didn't claim. Because obviouslly there's a lot of...scum...motivation...there...yes!

[Thor665]

@Zed - Also, looking back, though the mod lives in fear of constant VC updates, at the point I made the last list (the tricksy one without RC on it) ...his wagon wasn't that big compared to others. His wagon sprung up *after* that and I haven't made a new list since.
So...whassup?

[Thor665]

If there's a redirector like in Walking Dead or whatever they should claim.

Yeah, except they don;'t really need to.

Say they redirected Dan to Chessball Night 1 and Alp to, I dunno, Sekai Night 2. Whoop-dee-doo if they claim.
It literally only matters if they targeted you.
Which, going out on a limb here, is a pretty unlikely.

Wanna full claim yourself now?

[Thor665]

And I don't see how him claiming Amnesiac gives him an out.
It, like, gives him no out. He's still supposedly receiving results, so if you flip town then either he lied or...what, he lied about half his results?
The scum team sacced Mastin to bag you?

Full claim time.

[Thor665]

And I don't see how him claiming Amnesiac gives him an out.
It, like, gives him no out. He's still supposedly receiving results, so if you flip town then either he lied or...what, he lied about half his results?
The scum team sacced Mastin to bag you?

Convince me that it's worth my time to convince you of anything, and I might bother.

Otherwise I'll leave figuring out the gambit to the town tomorrow.

Well...if you're town it's your business whether you want to be a good player or a bad one.
I usually try to be a good one if I'm going down due to skewed role interactions.
You can do it however you like though. I'm (pretty sure I'm) not your father.