Left 4 Dead Mafia! (Game Over!)

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VOTE: Aegor

I COUNTERCLAIM

VOTE: Rubicon

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those are ellipses

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Scum claim = policy lynch, no way am I letting site meta drift that way

I think you're too late on that one.

Not you, I just can't lynch all these people claiming scum and there is actually town amongst them and that is really depressing

How do you know there's town among them? Which of them do you think it is?

This is a legitimate scumclaim, rather than Aegor's faked scumclaim, because it's taking the fun but instead of running with it (voting Aegor), he takes this approach, to avoid drawing attention to himself. Especially since Aegor (having self-voted first) would take the brunt of the blow. It's scum trying to blend in during the RVS, while also trying to avoid becoming part of something they'd rather avoid. (For instance, if Aegor got wagoned to, say, L-1, it'd be something a scum-Rubicon would want to be off of like the plague.)

You make good points and I like the cut of your jib.

Rubicon is town. Thanks, mastin.

I can't put my finger on it but I get the strong impression DGB is town.

Mastin is scum so you come in and try to discredit me by calling me scum, you are a totes Mastin buddy

You're probably not serious but I could see a mastin2 and BBmolla as both scum at this point on the grounds that they were both being weirdly serious in RVS: mastin2 for example, "I was the third-to-last to confirm; does that make me scum, too?" and his thing about me. BBmolla making a big deal about policy lynching people for claiming scum, exaggerated irritation with it, etc.

VOTE: mastin2

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Uh... like which reads? I'm not seeing it.

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Her ISO is joke reads and a maybe serious vote on mastin.

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This post is a scum-claim.

I think you're confused, the scum claim was in my first post.

Mastin referring to my vote as OMGUS is definitely not making me feel better about her.

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Mastin is being anything but town. Frankly, even the callback of trying to act weird to get reactions remains not town.

That said, I have enough respect for him to provide a chance for future gains, as I feel respectfully confident in my ability to read him correctly. Can't read DGB though, and though AP is here there's also Chess to compete for loud spam that bugs me.

Walk me through why you're voting the null/annoying instead of scum?

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Aegor playing with you again is going to give me a headache isn't it.

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Well this time we can just zombie-mechanic them to death, so that's good.

What are you talking about exactly with Bulba?

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Which raises the question of why you started talking about whatever it is in the first place.

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Chessball is town

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Chessball is town.

Back at ya.

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I don't have a good read on them either way at the moment, but feel that pressure on them and getting people to oppose or support the wagon will be useful to me in reading their alignment and also the alignment of others.

Now it's your turn, why do you think they're town?

I just do. Or did, anyway. Less sure now.

We don't like him or Rubicon so far. Rubicon's p much ignoring his wagon. You think vezok looks scummier?

Mastin started it for terrible reasons, PV and vezok jumped on for equally bad reasons, Z thinks one of my posts was a "scum claim" but I have no idea how, you think it was "stiff" and I have no idea how. Toogoloo jumped on without a reason but he's probably town.

I think mastin is scum, vezok and PV are likely scum. ActionDan saying DGB had more "relevant, direct" reads than she does as scum struck me as weird.

AP, Aegor, Thor look town.

Last sentence of 244 looked town.

If you want to figure me out, maybe just ask me something?

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town

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vezok is a good wagon

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@Rubicon: Ok cause I just don't get it: Why #108? ...

...I feel like just asking "why?" implies that I would automatically know what you didn't like about it. What part don't you get?

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I just do. Or did, anyway. Less sure now.

What changed? Because prior to this you were defending them from me, so I'm guessing something had to shift.

Seeing several of my town reads in her scum pile was the wake up call I needed to realize her true nature.

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@ Nero:

And furthermore, even if you believe that scum have a way to manipulate the horde, why are you condoning actually giving them more information to work with in order to better utilize said ability?

This feels like a town response, agree/disagree?

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Rub, were you scum or town in 2.5 men?

Also I'm wondering why you asked this.

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mastin

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what are you even doing

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...I specifically went out of my way to

avoid

doing those things. I specifically went out of my way to do things that I knew would freak people out who know me. Which is why people like Nero and Thor are town: because they're reacting how I expected of someone seeing that.

"I'm being scummy and not town at all but it's

on purpose

so it's okay!"

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And btw, PV trolls as both alignments.

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Right, I'm muddling my way through the pages I've missed, gonna trickle my thoughts into the thread while I work on putting them into words.

Vezok could be town. I like his reactions to being wagoned and the fact that he says Sven is "a townie tunneling" and that "in his mind I am scum and he doesn't understand why people don't see that too." Considering the context of the Sven wagon, I think this is a reasonably town reaction to asking themselves, "Why is this person so wrong about me?" Especially from vezok, I just don't see this exchange happening with scum-vezok.

I don't actually agree that Sven looks like town tunnelling, though. To me, the "case" feels like a poor attempt at fake scumhunting the easiest counterwagon to himself. His "I AM NOT FUCKING SCUM" post is all right but isn't very convincing to me. My experience is that town frustration should either seeth out of a person or explode in a sudden, violent burst of impotent fury that makes everyone stop and say, "Whoa." ALL CAPS, YELLING, swearing, etc. are tools scum use to pretend they're upset without actually having to do anything except push the cap locks button on their keyboard. (This is mostly in response to people who said he seemed genuinely frustrated, like Thor.)

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Red Coyote can be town.

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pidgey is prob town for his "lol heres my reads withallth ese typos aye wat your post makes no fuckin sense Im startin to scum read you bro" or whatever. Feels enough like unconcerned town to make me like him.

PV said something pretty town that got lost in the downtime, can't find it now.

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BTW as I read through this I feel like there were questions I asked people that got lost. I'm not sure if the responses got lost or if nobody responded. If it's the latter, people should go respond to those things when they reappear.

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479 by Toog basically mirrors what I'd been wanting to say re: the wasteland of dull & obvious questions in Zdenek's ISO that he never bothers to follow up on.

Thinking about how Z played in Jason's Doctor Who large theme, it was noticably different (more insightful, better pokes at people).

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Mastin needs to be lynched fucking yesterday. I want her dead as soon as is physically possible. If anyone is a dayvig please take care of this, thank you. Unless ActionDan said something super awesome during the downtime he's probably scum. Majiffy is also a mild scum read for me. There was someone else who seemed scum in the lost posts but I'm gonna have to wait until those come back.

Red Coyote is town.

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also

1. Rubicon's post is a scum-claim because he was questioning someone having town reads in a group of players that contained him.

You still think this? I don't want to be all confirmation-bias here, but I feel like the people who keep saying this are trying to discredit a reasonable point about BBmolla. Go look at what me/Aegor had actually posted when BBmolla said that and consider whether me wondering why BBmolla assumed there was town in the group might raise warning bells. It's not whether

I

know there's town in the group, it's whether he can reasonably make that assumption.

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Z, I'm still curious why you read BBmolla as town. I'm open to the idea, but there doesn't really seem to be anything in his ISO to point that direction.

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I'm going to put my vote here for now:

VOTE: majiffy

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Aegor is tooooowwwwn.

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DGB on a scale of yes to very yes how scummy is mastin.

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So, now, are you going to actually look at the reasons I'm scumreading players, or are you going to just keep living in a fantasy world?

I am looking at the reasons. I'm saying they suck, are piddly, and that I would expect more from you if you were town.

VEZOK LITERALLY SAID WITH 33 PAGES OF CONTENT IN THE GAME THAT I AM THE SCUMMIEST PERSON. WHILE EARLIER ADMITTING THAT HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A LEGITIMATE REASON FOR THINKING I AM SCUM. AND HE DID NOT ELABORATE. AND STILL HAS NOT ELABORATED.

IT CAN NOT BE ANY FUCKING CLEARER. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST OPEN YOUR EYES.

Why do you think scum-him did this? I don't understand your previous response to me about him either.

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Catching up on this game because I don't want to get prodded. I haven't had a chance to read all the posts you guys have made, but based on the ones I've looked at, I have this crazy feeling in my gut that most of you are town, and only a few of you are scum. Assuming that's correct, I also have the distinct impression that those of you who are town (I'm thinking a majority?) don't know who each other are, but the scum do know each other, and might have some form of private communication. I think this might even things out because if the scum players weren't more informed than the town, it would be hard for them to work together, and the town players would have trouble telling the difference.

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

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I am sorry about lurking, but catching up on 40 pages of this game hasn't been a major priority for me this week. I did start working through it earlier today though.

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AP, who do you want to lynch?

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VOTE: vezok

Btw, I'm pretty sure PV's at L-3. I can't find Thor's vote anywhere.

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i dont get these wagon shifts, we go from alp like a horde on pere, who doesnt have to claim, and now vezok claims instead

at work but i think we should analyze the shifts

you should do it

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I'll claim to stop this bullshit wagon on me.
I'm the female boomer. Instead of sending 3 people to the list I can send only one. There may be more people that have my role.

What makes you think more people have the role?

(Holding off on commentary for now, but I can think of at least one good reason to believe this claim.)

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New Zombie Nom List

Vezok *or* Pere (presumption is we lynch one of them, nom nom other)
Action Dan
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I'm good with this list.

This list is pretty bad all around except for Action Dan and/or vezok.

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I'm down.

VOTE: ActionDan

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Nero is V/LA

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VOTE: mastin2

Dieeeeeee

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- Rubicon might be scum for hard defending Aegor, but not Bulbazak. The only reason I can see to defend Aegor like that is because of their interactions.

Haven't read enough of the thread to have a real opinion on Bulbazak, or to know why my read of one would affect my read of the other.

I'm feeling Aegor as town because of the way he's being obstinate (meta reason), challenging stronger players and not changing his own play to match what they want. And maybe for his reactions w/ the whole scum claim thing in RVS.

It makes me think that he's faking understanding what was going on.

Uh, have you read my posts?

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Here is some ketchup.

pidgey's 1924 was pretty much my response to mastin's read wall. To grab a couple examples:

1. Majiffy
^Scum. I already explained the basics behind it, but basically, Majiffy's posting here is entirely scum-oriented. The best of his posting is "meh", when almost all the rest of it is scun. He puts on a good act, but this is his scumplay.

I don't disagree with this read, but would it even be physically possible to phrase a read less concretely? There are no specifics mentioned. No posts pointed to. Just: It's scum-oriented. It's his scum play. The end.

I wouldn't mind so much if it weren't a pattern.

4. SweatingChessball (DrippingGoofball/Chesskid3 Hydra)
^Also a decent townread. Though they haven't been posting as much as I'd prefer, and their content as of recently has been slightly lackluster, they're still a fairly decent townread, because their thoughts seem to be coming from a town player. Both of them have stances that are easy to see and relate to. Basically, just by extrapolating their posting, you can see that they're town; they've got a clear trajectory that is easily followed, and I can easily understand what gives them their reads.

Does this make any sense to someone else? There's "you can see they're town just by extrapolating their posting" and then there's "you can see they're town if you imagine they'd said a bunch of town things they didn't". Not to mention, she goes out of her way to say she

both

of them have stances that are easy to follow, when as far as I can tell, chesskid has only posted one sentence in the game.

(Also - I read pidgey's "helo?" in 1933 as him being surprised no one was engaging with him on it, and trying to get a response, which makes me feel good/better about him as town.)

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re: Majiffy ~

FWIW, I think Majiffy is my singular strongest scumread. But I'll be damned if I start another wagon Today.

You've spent a grand total of zero time pushing for my lynch.

What the hell is your read even based off, anyway?

I think you were tunneling a bit on Vezok to try to make a wagon happen. That's not scummy on its own, but a lot of players disagreed with you and tried to explain why they thought there could be town motivation behind vezok's position, and instead of engaging with them to try to work out why they thought so, you kind of brushed them off and/or insulted them. What was your thought process there? Now that vezok is probably town, do your other reads change?

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re: zombie kills ~

Nom List

Action Dan *or* Sekai, whichever we don't lynch (unless the one we lynch flips scum, in which case choose BBMolla)
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Chessball

I *really* like this iteration of the list.
As a bonus it also includes the people kind of meaningless whining about being on the list without doing much else. Which, y'know, seems the definition of good inclusion for names on the list.

(trying not to be annoyed at being on this list and to respond reasonably...)

Reading your posts about this plan, I think you're ignoring the fact that some players are strong D1 and some players are strong in midgame/lategame. Like, that describes DGB to a T. I think it may even be a deliberate strategy she uses to stay alive until she can be useful.

I'm rarely useful in a game until it gets down to mini theme size, at which point I almost always become one of the most active players left. Keeping up with a game that has over 2000 posts in D1? When I have two other games to keep track of? Not happening. Not even

close

to happening.

Have you thought about this aspect of the players you're choosing and do you disagree with ^ this assessment?

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rc is scum with dopog - that's why he over reacted to PeregrineV's post.

Does that make sense? If he thought it had been passed over, why mention it?

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Red Coyote is pretty fucking town tbh. If that's the only wagon we can pull together today, ok, but I'm expecting a town flip.

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That seems counterintuitive.

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Overall reads, AP, PV, vezok, Bulbazak, Aegor and Pidgey are the town core from my POV.

Mastin is scum. I'm Occam's razoring that one. If a player posts like Mastin posts, they're probably just scum, the end.

Majiffy is probably scum too, want to see how he responds to my question above though.

AtE aside, can see the scum case on sekai. They are not a bad lynch for today. Probably not on a team with mastin though. Them being mastin's top scum read is... something.

I read BBmolla as pretty damn scummy, and would like to know what people think is town about him. Same for Zdenek, whose posting is a LITTLE better lately but still not doing much for me.

dopog might be scum.

DGB hasn't said anything that could be used to read her right now AFAICT. (Can be used later, but not now.) I think she's playing the way she always does.

Gut says Thor is town. I realized a week or two ago he reminded me of someone I play mafia with on another site to a ridiculous level, but that things which are town for that person may not be town for Thor. If that makes sense. So I'm less confident about Thor-town now just because I think he could probably fake a lot of what looked town to me as scum.

(Also, I couldn't help but notice how terrible his selections for the horde kill were. >_>)

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Actually lynching someone should be an intuitively beneficial goal. So vote RC or make a kickass case on someone else or attempt to start another wagon. Please do not do the last one, though.

I'm on the second biggest wagon at the moment. I don't support the top wagon and I don't think it needs my vote to move forward if people want it to move forward. So that's why it would be counterintuitive for me to vote it.

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Have you thought about this aspect of the players you're choosing and do you disagree with ^ this assessment?

There's a difference between being better later in the game (most players are...in fact, I don't think I can name a player who isn't...maybe AP in full WIFOM paranoia mode...? Meh) and being feth useless.

You guys are being feth useless.

make sense?

...uh, no. Way to completely side-step my point? (And to continue calling me useless AND pushing to get me killed even after I catch up, post a wall explaining my thoughts, and start trying to get involved in the conversation... you know, all the things you wanted me dead for not doing.)

Do you or do you not acknowledge that Large Theme Day 1's move too fast for a lot of players to keep up with?

Do you or do you not acknowledge that this doesn't mean a person isn't a good player or won't make valuable contributions to the game later?

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There's a reason I only ever sign up for one large at a time.
You should clearly sign up for zero.

Your 4-6 hours of catching up would be a lot less difficult if you'd tossed in an extra 12 minutes a day since game start you'd have maybe 1-3 hours.

-.-

Do you realize how irritating this is?

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What's weird is I was thinking yesterday that the horde mechanic was a pretty good way to push players into being more active and discourage lurking, and that you putting me on the list was a decent strategy to pressure me into doing something. But then I take an afternoon of my life yesterday to read 50 fucking game pages and post a catch-up and you... continue calling me useless.

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I mean, hell, why don't we just put Nero Cain on the list and call it a day. That motherfucker thinks he can get away with being V/LA. Actually having real life obligations that keep him from being active for a while??

Not on my fucking watch,

Nero. Sure, he'll be coming back from V/LA soon. Sure, he's bound to be more active later. But none of that matters because he wasn't able to be "useful" D1, so fuck him, I hope he dies.

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My thought process was lynch Vezok.

I still don't think he's town, I don't like the claim, my reads haven't changed.

Do you think he's lying about his role or what?

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It's a yes/no question, and it has a point. Please answer it, thanks.

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How do you think he knew the role was in the game so he could lie about it?

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A boomer? It doesn't take long to look up zombies in a well-known zombie game, if he hasn't played it.

And furthermore, I wouldn't expect AP to leave scum fakeclaims out.

Any other ridiculously stupid questions you'd like to ask?

Do you think scum were given fake claims that include actual powers, that are actually in the game?

Because the power Vezok is claiming is definitely a real power. At least one other player crumbed the role early on, others seem to be hinting they have it, etc.

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Thor, thoughts on what I say about mastin in 2004?

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1. Yes, I agree you have attempted to step up your presence as I have made noise about you on the death list.

Exactly. Why do you want me dead, then?

2. I think they move slow while being clogged with pages and pages very quickly - I don't think this comes as a shock to anyone, I knew when i signed up that it was going to happen.

So did I. That's why you sharing time management advice as though you know something about our lives is fucking irritating.

3. I don't see what this has to do with anything, but yes, i agree with you that players will be more helpful late game than early game. I said this already. Oddly though, some players are able to "do anything at all" during early game too - they rarely end up on Vig lists. Pretty odd, I know.

The point is that vig lists are usually for players who are either scum, or for the kind of policy lynch-type player who is useless / can't be read later / is a liability? And not, you know, for ruining the game for good town players just because they didn't meet Thor's lofty standards for Day 1 content.

Also: I'm very confused by the above quote because I thought we were talking about my couple of prod dodges and falling behind on the thread for about six days. I think even with the prod dodges, I actually have done a lot of stuff, significantly more than I usually manage to on D1 in a large theme.

I mean, if you want me to just post without reading when RL gets in the way, and fill the thread with "content", I can do that for you. Does seem a little hypocritical considering the first line of your 980, though.

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And the argument "but I'll eventually become useful at some indeterminant point in the future" just begs the question "then why aren't you being useful right now"

Like you, you're going to catch up? Really? Then why aren't you caught up now. It's silly, and it's not worth my time to consider as a reason to not put you on a vig list.

Well, why should they bother?

I caught up. I started being useful. Guess what, you still want me dead.

It's almost like that's not even the real motivation behind your choices.

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Do you think scum were given fake claims that include actual powers, that are actually in the game?

Because the power Vezok is claiming is definitely a real power. At least one other player crumbed the role early on, others seem to be hinting they have it, etc.

If AP gave out fakeclaims that correspond to town roles, I'd expect all the powers to match. Otherwise the fakeclaim itself would serve as a scumclaim.

This is a decent enough point.

Although in the one other Venmar game I've played (Gears of War), he only gave the scum fake names, not flavor or powers. Not sure how it was in Walking Dead.

Giving the scum a real power fake claim, that several town players have, seems OP, not just for the claim but for telling scum what powers are in the town.

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VOTE: mastin

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Actually, my role is God.

You would

think

that'd be a scumclaim, especially given my earlier ramblings, but no. For proof that God's a zombie, you need only look at the real world we live in right here and now, as we're typing. The world couldn't exist like that if God WASN'T undead.

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VOTE: pidgey

....................

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Why not.
VOTE: pidgey

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sveeeeeeeennnnn

VOTE: mastin2

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how would it go sidways, lol

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Aegor, you think vezok's role could be fake/scum then? (important question)
VOTE: vezok

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If there's a redirector like in Walking Dead or whatever they should claim.

Otherwise, no plans to fight this one though because EITHER there's a redirector who will claim for me, OR molla "caught" mastin yesterday and I need to flip asap to prove that he's a big fat liar.

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I just want to say that if no redirector, it's pretty awesome that I called molla AND mastin2 on page 2 of the thread though

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Would also explain why mastina overreacted so hard to molla's post yesterday, i.e., it was intentional

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And by calling it "amnesiac", he gives himself an instant out for when I flip town of course.

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It literally only matters if they targeted you.
Which, going out on a limb here, is a pretty unlikely.

Yeah but that goes without saying. I don't think it's likely either.

I'm VT.

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And I don't see how him claiming Amnesiac gives him an out.
It, like, gives him no out. He's still supposedly receiving results, so if you flip town then either he lied or...what, he lied about half his results?
The scum team sacced Mastin to bag you?

Convince me that it's worth my time to convince you of anything, and I might bother.

Otherwise I'll leave figuring out the gambit to the town tomorrow.

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Please note that the last sentence of /m56 is correct, at least as far as the role in question.

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Mastin needs to be lynched fucking yesterday. I want her dead as soon as is physically possible. If anyone is a dayvig please take care of this, thank you. Unless ActionDan said something super awesome during the downtime he's probably scum. Majiffy is also a mild scum read for me. There was someone else who seemed scum in the lost posts but I'm gonna have to wait until those come back.

Red Coyote is town.

Called it!

Thanks Majiffy, Sven and AD for carrying this after we got lynched. And to Mastin for an awesome / hilariously fun gambit. It was one of those ideas that sounded (1) fun and (2) just crazy enough to work.

A few of you in the town came really close to solving it... (pidgey included so don't be hard on yourself!)