Left 4 Dead Mafia! (Game Over!)

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hi guys

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You have a case on you.

I saw it.

Your translation of "hi guys" was a stronger case.

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So is mastin scum for not doing the rvs readlist?

Does he seem scum to you in other respects?

You have a case on you.

I saw it.

Your translation of "hi guys" was a stronger case.

Also this sounds ridiculously boring.

Dry wit usually does.

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Does he seem scum to you in other respects?

Not really. Otherwise, she just looks like normal mastin self.

Mastin's playing more aggressively in general lately. I'm still adjusting to it. This is a level or two above that, I think.

(sorry about the pronoun mixup, Mastin)

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(BTW, I think mastin is town now)

I agree.

Mastin, you're just going to have to deal with it.

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I am not. I repeat. NOT. Accepting townreads on me, when I've specifically gone out of my way to weird players out. Like...Nero's response is probably from town. That, I'd expect. Not...this.

You'll just have to deal with it.

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omg that avatar.

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You guys, Mastin just posted but ignored EVERYTHING about me calling him scum. Time to lynch it.

For a game that hasn't hit 10 pages, I'm feeling pretty sure he's town. Do you want me to count the reasons why?

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You guys, Mastin just posted but ignored EVERYTHING about me calling him scum. Time to lynch it.

For a game that hasn't hit 10 pages, I'm feeling pretty sure he's town. Do you want me to count the reasons why?

Sure, I could use a solid town read in this soup, since as far as post quality feel I am of the opinion we're still on page 1, maybe the top of 2.

I wasn't asking you!

But, I'll answer anyway.

The clincher IMO is this snippet about dopog

Because by numbers alone, he's likely to be town. Because by the players in this game, he's likely to end up mislynched because he's not as intertwined. Because of my gut. And most importantly of all...because I said so.

The town motivation for posting this in response to Aegor's RVS vote saying he was pushing a mislynch is that it's true, and saying so it partially takes a mislynch off the table, or at least raises the bar on potentially scummy behavior needed for mastin to later push a mislynch.

Ah, but what if mastin and dopog are scumbuddies? Then, she's left a huge honking association in one of her first posts of the game. Which I can see scum-mastin doing because the inclination is to think why would she even go there if they're scumbuddies. But, that's for way past page 6 and if I see a lot of other signposts pointing in the scum direction.

Beyond the clincher, she's playing to draw a lot of attention for doing stuff she hasn't done in recent memory. And there are players in this game who will scrutinize her every post. It would be a lot easier as scum-mastin to stay within her recent town-envelope where doing so doesn't lead to stuff that is counter to a scum wincon.

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gif, thoughts on joining vezok with me

why are you voting him?

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I feel like when I said "DGB is town", I was very clear.

Awesome! So...what is it Chessball has done that looks townish to you?
Because all I see thus far is bog standard DGB stuff.

The town motivation for posting this in response to Aegor's RVS vote saying he was pushing a mislynch is that it's true, and saying so it partially takes a mislynch off the table, or at least raises the bar on potentially scummy behavior needed for mastin to later push a mislynch.

Ah, but what if mastin and dopog are scumbuddies? Then, she's left a huge honking association in one of her first posts of the game. Which I can see scum-mastin doing because the inclination is to think why would she even go there if they're scumbuddies. But, that's for way past page 6 and if I see a lot of other signposts pointing in the scum direction.

Beyond the clincher, she's playing to draw a lot of attention for doing stuff she hasn't done in recent memory. And there are players in this game who will scrutinize her every post. It would be a lot easier as scum-mastin to stay within her recent town-envelope where doing so doesn't lead to stuff that is counter to a scum wincon.

1. A playstyle change is as helpful to a scum wincon as a town wincon. Also, I don't personally think there has been much of a change.

In terms of the bones, not much of a change at all.

2. Your other point is an extremely mild town defense equates to Mastin being town...I would personally submit there's probably multiple scumMastin games available including soft defense of lynch bait. Do you disagree?

I haven't played that much with scum-Mastin, and in both cases he pinged for me quite early in the game. I've spent several games squinting at town-mastin and wondering, though. I feel like some of his town play is coming into better focus in our recent games.

He probably does soft-defend lynch bait, though. It's an easy enough scum tactic. I didn't think this defense was all that soft, and it was really, really early.

you could sheep me

I could.
If I thought you had anything worth sheeping.
You don't.

Curiosity + felt like a good question to ask.

So..."no" as the response then?
Okay - in that case I'm dodging your pro-scum question.[/quote]

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screwed that up somehow. the last two quotes and answers weren't supposed to be there.

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That's too bad. it could be the longest post I write all game.

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GIF is town
I'll go BBmolla town, mastin town

post

this entire post feels forced. none of it seems like it's coming from an angle of trying to figure anything out

vote rubicon

He OMGUSed mastin with only 3 voets on him and still in RVS. That seems like scum over-reacting.

this feels like flow-going. anything else you have to say?

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Zdenek is town as shit

Bulbazak, you don't feel confident or aggressive because Mastin called you an a-hole?

No, she called me an a-hole awhile ago. I've been reevaluating how I tackle games, since my town win-rate is abysmal. I just feel out of my depth atm.

seems genuine. Bulba is probably town

I hate how Rubicon's reaction to his wagon was to just blatantly ignore it

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ok I can't take it anymore Aegor is town as shit

You are reading the mod's info in the most rose-colored way possible if you believe scum won't be given at least one if not more tools to influence the horde.

There is no indication what so ever that scum would have any influence.

First off, people with the Horde Mentality have to pick three names. Of these three names, the host randomly ousts two of them. Then he tallies the names up and the one with the most gets killed. It's practically random in and of itself.

Everyone with the Horde Mentality could put "Toogeloo" down as one of their choices, but if I get ousted from every list, I am not dying. It's just too random of a situation to think that scum would have a power to influence it at this stage.

And furthermore, even if you believe that scum have a way to manipulate the horde, why are you condoning actually giving them more information to work with in order to better utilize said ability?

^probably town? it seems like a genuine attempt to figure shit out and his assumption about the mechanic, while I disagree, seems like smth town would do

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what's about it?

TOWN

Chessball====3
Alpazard
Bulbazak
Zdenek
BBmolla
Toogeloo is vanilla town
GIF
Rubicon

MEDIUM RARE

Sven's vezok vote is pretty good.
sekai is townish.
Thor starts bad but posts 175 and 176 aren't cranky, so probtown.
mastin2

SCUM PILE FOR SORTING

ActionDan may be buttering me up.
AngryPidgeon
Peregrine is nervous that I'll catch him being scum again, I have fried his brain.
Aegor
vezok

explain Alpazard, Rubicon, Peregrine, Aegor


anyway
town: GIF, BBmolla, Aegor, Zdenek
null-town: mastin, Toog, Bulba

scum: Rubicon, vezok

vote: Rubicon

wagon ahoy

@AP:

what exactly is your read on mastin?

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what's about 53? I don't see it 0.0

and is that the only reason you have him as null-scum? bc I didn't see you bring up any other posts of his. if not, can you elaborate plz

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so I assume you don't wanna tell me what the problem with 53 is?

I wanna know cause it seemed like a typical mastin post to me, but this is the first time I'm trying to do a personal read on mastin so idk how much I should actually trust said read

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Hi AP. I'm a little surprised and a little concerned that you aren't making more of an effort to interact and maybe sort us.

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I kinda dislike how he misquoted AP and is claiming that I said this.

sorry? it's like it was accidental or something

There's no way it was accidental. Nero is nowhere in the post you quoted from. You would have had to insert his name manually.

highlight and quote do bizarre things sometimes.

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I kinda think I should, yeah.

Thanks for explaining your reaction to #53 for pieguy.

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Ffery? Don't mind her, shes probably just trying to mimic her town meta.

I still don't know how to go about developing a read on you if you don't obvtown the hell out of the thread.

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I'm also kinda concerned because I feel like some of my confidence in reading mastin comes from watching you develop a read on him, and so I either completely misapplied what I've thought I learned, or something's up with your analysis. :/

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Help me lynch that pirate thing.

Mastin will be obvious one way or another before long

We don't like him or Rubicon so far. Rubicon's p much ignoring his wagon. You think vezok looks scummier?

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UNVOTE:

Vote vezok

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Vezok isn't new though 'cause I played with him AGES ago. I mean yeah, his vote was p lame but he doesn't seem super scummy to me so *shrugz*

It looks like his last completed game was in 2011. That's a long time not playing.

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You mean the elements of my play second-most like my null-normal self, perhaps arguably even *the* most like my normal null self? You're townreading me for THAT?

Yes.

We may very well both be terrible at reading you, but atm it's a fact not in evidence. For myself, I think my track record so far in our games hasn't been all that bad. We'll see how we do this time.

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There's an announcement here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5710540

Sounds like the lost posts may be recovered.

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Iirc I nailed scum ffery. It took a few walls but she ended up surrendering and scum claiming.

hush, you.

I would like to talk to you about your mastin read sometime.

The only time he's ever unequivocally called me scum in a game was late day 1 of Buzzword Bingo.

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Where's the game and what is your point?

Game's here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28645. AP was the mod. With the exception of about 5 pages, that thread is all day 1.

It's not so much a point as it is an amorphous feeling. I don't think I can explain it right now. Yesterday's complete failure to communicate where I was coming from regarding svenskt's wagon suggests I'm expecting my conclusions to be obvious when they're anything but. And, either I'm not synching at all with my town reads this time, or I'm wrong about some reads.

AP is a read I don't think I have wrong. So are you, but we tend not to see the game from similar perspectives (see our reads divergence in the Dr. Who game).

Mastin's rather determined misread of me worries me a little.

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I dunno. Maybe you'll see where I'm coming for when the post Mastin made yesterday gets restored.

Maybe not.

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I don't remember you actually ever calling me town this game although you seemed to imply that you had just now.

I called you a town read yesterday. And my interactions with you have yelled "you're town" in my behavioral vocabulary since pretty early on.

And I think my last posts from yesterday did a decent job of clarifying my position on the svenskt wagon. I think his posts since returning have looked better and more town-svenskt than what he left in the thread earlier. I think his wagon is/was town-driven. The only player on the wagon I don't have some degree of townread on is Alpazard.

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Mastin is intentionally obfuscating emotions / content by being willfully scummy. This is anti-town at best, potentially scum motivated, and not allowed to live beyond D3 unless somehow confirmed.

In most players, I find willingness to intentionally step way outside their envelope of game-behaviors to be more likely town than scum.

Mastin isn't most players, so I've come around to downgrading that as a reason to call her town. She has an approach to reads of coloring in the motivations behind posts, and even extrapolating what a post would look like if the person making the post had been more verbose. I like the extrapolation part, but can't really emulate that myself when reading someone.

But, I think the basic idea of looking for town motivations behind posts, especially in the early game is something that either Mastin taught Nacho or Nacho taught Mastin or they both learned from someone else. At any rate, I learned to do it better from Nacho and I recognize it in Mastin's play and it's been one of the keys to my getting earlier and more solid reads of town-Mastin. This is the first game outside the Sangres games where I've tried to read him that way.

That early post about dopog hit some town-notes.

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And my interactions with you have yelled "you're town" in my behavioral vocabulary since pretty early on.

Hi AP. I'm a little surprised and a little concerned that you aren't making more of an effort to interact and maybe sort us.

I still don't know how to go about developing a read on you if you don't obvtown the hell out of the thread.

--
Other than this you prodded me about my mastin read a little, sheeped me on to Vezok (ok), and pointed out that I wasn't pressuring Sven despite voting him.

So pardon me if Im having a hard time buying that ffery got a townread on me so readily and has been dropping hints about it that I cant see.

It's not a case of dropping hints. I'm treating you like a townread. I'm annoyed you're not townreading me, and every time I think about reaching out to you and working on a read I seem to run up against another post that I feel kind of marginalizes my viewpoint. Stuff like the post where you said I had no credibility meta-reading Mastin. That's something else I griped about in the swath of missing posts from Tuesday.

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That early post about dopog hit some town-notes.

The one where mastin called dopog a mislynch despite dopog not having posted? Unless you consider being batshit-mastin a towntell, then I really dont see the townieness behind that.

So is mastin town or scum? You seem pretty determined to waffle there today. I'd rather lynch someone else tbh.

The ONLY reason I'm waffling is because I think you can read Mastin better than I can. It's also why I asked you about the read.

I'm not interested in lynching her today.

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UNVOTE

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dont you need to know thealignment of a person to know if youwould have done the same?

I don't think so.

"thinks/does what I'm thinking/want to do at a specific point in the game" is not a 100% reliable towntell, but it's usually a decent first order sorting tool on day 1.

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lol. I was literally posting a vote bulba when 424 came up in p-edit. And the post wrecks my ostensible reason for making the vote. Will think on it a bit.

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I'm not quite sure what you said here. Can you walk me through it?

What I said was negative space, e.g., absolutely nothing about what bothered me enough to decide to vote you. So, "I'm not quite sure what you said here" is a huge understatement.

Are you being nice? If so, why?

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What I said was negative space, e.g., absolutely nothing about what bothered me enough to decide to vote you. So, "I'm not quite sure what you said here" is a huge understatement.

I quite literally didn't understand what you wrote.

1. I was afk, thought about the game some, wondered where to put our vote next.

2. Voice in my head said "vote bulba".

3. I checked your iso to see if I was remembering your posts correctly.

4. I wrote a naked vote and clicked "submit"

5. Your post about Svenskt stopped my vote from going through immediately.

6. I read the post, decided it knocked a hole in the iso basis for my vote, though it doesn't address why you came to mind in the first place.

7. I rewrote my post, wondering what you'd reply.

Are you being nice? If so, why?

Give me an example to put this question into context. Am I being nice in what way?

In not trying to nail me to the wall for indirectly FoSing you without providing any reasoning.

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I don't know if others were around. But as I said, I did know that pieguy was around after the time role PMs were sent.
By semi-serious, I guess it's more on non-serious side. I was basically trolling fery with it but I did have a minor lingering suspicion there.

If I had taken your suspicion seriously, I would have pointed out that Venmar didn't cc the role pm to my main account. I didn't confirm until I noticed the game thread was up.

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Random thought - I want to do another audio mafia and have ffery participate in it so I can hear him say his username out loud.

fer-ihlt, slight emphasis on the 2nd syllable.

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@GiF I think those posts are it. We're overdue a synch.

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Scum is probably just riding on the outskirts

I agree with this.

reads list incoming, with or without a synch.

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If you and mastin both turn out to be town, any reads you venture on me in the foreseeable future will be met with pointing and laughter.

Though, to your credit, at least you, AP, aren't claiming you have a read.

There are players in this game who have played with scum-me as well as players who have played a ton of games with town-me. Aside from GiF, none of them have ventured a read. That actually worries me a little more than mastin's on-again off-again scumread.

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Is that a ffery in there?

Yep

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I always speak to you. I just don't pay much attention to your reads before day 2.

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These are my scum reads of varying degrees;
{Toog, Mastin, Vezok, Pidgey}
Thoughts on each

Toog doesn't seem to be taking as wide a view as I recall from the WD game. Nacho told me during that game that when Toog is town he's obvtown. I'm not seeing that yet, though I thought his run at zdenek looked townish (though IMO misguided).

Still sticking with my townread perhaps out of spite at this point. If I'm correct I'll be invoking bragging rights.

Vezok's recent posts look more town to me

First game with Pidgey, haven't meta'd him yet. He doesn't worry me as much as some players do.

Town reads;
{Molla, Rubicon}
Also kinda want to say I had these as town, too;
{Svenskt Stål, dopog}

Molla's been meh enough that I'm thinking null-scum atm. He's a player who's seen scum-me in a game, as well as modded a game where I was scum. With all the crap swirling in the thread I'm surprised he hasn't taken a stance.

Rubicon I think I agree.

Cautious town read on Svenskt.[/quote]

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...Okay. Reworded, simply: flowchart. You're not taking control. You're letting others take control, hanging in the background.

Except this really isn't a scumtell for Majiffy?
In GoW he was aggressively shoving a mislynch on me all D1.
I've seen him be aggressive as scum.
Him not being aggressive is .. not a tell?

agree with p much all of this.

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Inner Town Circle: AP, RedCoyote, Thor, Zdenek, Toogeloo
Outer Town Circle: BBMolla, Aegor (candidate for inner), Bulbazak, Peregrine, dopog
Rather not lynch today: Nero Cain, Rubicon, Sven?, Vezok?

These people really need to step their game up or get dunked: DGBKid3, ActionDan, Alpazard, Majiffy
Lynch, die, scum: mastin2, GIF, pidgey, Sekai

Stop sucking at this game.

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OMGUS

Indeed. Stop.

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Ffery I would really like to either get a Toog or Vezok lynch today and help would be appreciated since apparently half the jackasses in this game aren't listening to me.

I'll put a vote back down sometime later today. Not promising it will be either of them.

What's your GiF read? Right now, he's pretty lonely in my town-and-worth-listening-to pile.

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I think hes saying Molla is more town than most.

@Ffery: Right, calling my reads shit is an amazing post. Sorry for misinterpreting that as a bad post.

They may not all be shit reads. I've lost patience trying to figure out where your reads are coming from, though, and you're abysmally wrong about me, and getting more wrong over time.

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I'm going to do some ISOs later tonight.

Ffery why is GIF town?

because he keeps posting from what I see as a town mindframe. And because he keeps posting. scum-GiF is usually pretty lurky.

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They may not all be shit reads. I've lost patience trying to figure out where your reads are coming from, though, and you're abysmally wrong about me, and getting more wrong over time.

I dunno, I thought I've been pretty transparent all game and explaining things more than usual. Just ask Thor and RC.

Explained doesn't equate to "makes sense to me".

Also you've moved transparently but with zero connect the dots from "null-maybe-scum but some posts feel kinda town" to die-in-a-fire scum on me in the space of about 24 hours.

And I'll say once again - I'm not scumreading you for it. But it gives me zero confidence that you're generally firing on all cylinders here.

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@AP

Do you remember this post?

I'm a little wary about townreading the hell out of redcoyote again on the basis of an awesome catch-up post.

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Do you remember this post?

I'm a little wary about townreading the hell out of redcoyote again on the basis of an awesome catch-up post.

Yes. I never said I was reading RC for making an awesome catchup wall. I did actually read and parse the contents of it. He feels notably different IMO.

Ok. good.

How do you feel about this part of Mastin's reply?

And if you think that being semi-serious in the RVS is a scumtell for me or for anyone, you can go straight to hell because that's a fundamental scumhunting technique that I've used even when I was a VI in 2009. It's carried over throughout my games over the years, and likely influenced other players to act similarly. (For instance, AP's posting in Anything Goes started out semi-seriously. He was not entirely serious...yet he was not entirely joking, either. It was a mid-way between the two, scumhunting in his own unique way.)

It raised a flag in pieguy's mind. I'm wondering if you see a similar issue.

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@sekai: What are your reads on thor, actiondan and PV? And what changed your read on rubicon?

I like AD's early posts but he's null overall. If I wind up townreading chesskid I'll probably sheep his AD vote. My thor read will be a long time gelling. PV is a lurksack in the early game usually and I don't trust him to make correct votes and decisions in the clutch even if he is town. He knows why :/

I don't remember the precise posts and I don't feel like looking for them atm, but there was some stuff rubicon posted after I observed that he wasn't acknowledging his wagon that I liked. He still wasn't acknowledging his wagon really, but it struck me that he was poking around in the game, asking town-sounding questions and making observations.

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"sheep his AD read" not vote.

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Hey sekai who are you voting

Nobody atm. pieguy is catching up.

What's your bulba read?

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How do you feel about this part of Mastin's reply?

I disliked his comparison to my RVS approach in Anything Goes mafia.

Hes right that I was being semi-serious, but I often get good reads from P1. Mastin's post in that game made me so I pursued it, mostly seriously.

I certainly didn't call somebody obvious-town who had yet to post and then backpedal over the inherent seriousness of my statement.

pieguy thought that post was exceptionally abrasive, beyond any abrasiveness he's seen from Mastin in prior games.

I feel like mastin's play in a few recent games have been points along a continuum and being exceptionally abrasive in a post in this game doesn't strike me as off that continuum. But, my experiential slice of mastin-games isn't exactly encyclopedic.

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It worked hilariously well in Cash Cabd

(In fact, it worked so well that one vote was enough)

heh.

Then why do you need our vote?

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And there.
Alpha answered your question for me.
A vote reaction won't work on him so we need an actual wagon on him!

pieguy likes this vote but it's because of marquis mostlh.

VOTE: Alpazard

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confusion about heads. pitoli.

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when I was the only remaining scum left in a town with a cop and a doctor in my way

Jiffy would have faked a guilty on the cop, gotten the doc to lynch the cop, killed the doc and still managed to win in LYLO by saying the guilty was a faked gambit because I didn't believe the cop claim and I wanted to draw the NK after lynching scum.

It was a tough crowd.

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I would have lynched the Doctor claim, bussed Cabd but never actually voted him, and NKd ffery.

Cabd was the mod.

I neighborized the doc, found the cop and lined up some protection for him, so good luck with the NK.

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I'm trying my wall catchup method bc I'm too far behind. come at me bros

290 if mastin made good points way back when why didn't you answer them?
299 explain your scumread on Dan plz
319 this defense sucks. rather than refuting the arguments against him his first course of action was "but all I did is my RVS vote". that seems like newbscum 101 right there
320

Umm...no I didn't?

you didn't actually refute any of it. it's p obvious that's what he meant. although now that you bring this up this seems like a case of townreading the person scumreading you so they back off
329 starting to reverse my scumread on Rubicon
343 how the hell are you townreading me so soon? and how sure are you of AP town?
373 explain both of these townreads
418 how'd you go from vezok scum to vezok town?
462 what was town-looking about Rubicon?
474

Mastin, 397, stop being boring. 409, no you're just scum being transparent about things that don't matter.

Zdenek is town as shit
495 11/10
521 nope that's it
529 why GIF?
531 why not? in AOT mastin hard defended his buddy Paschendale who was obvscum. this feels like the exact same thing and I could see a mastin/vezok team here
535 feels like PV is slipping through the cracks a bit. also, why ask Toog without asking someone like mastin?
538

And if you think that being semi-serious in the RVS is a scumtell for me or for anyone, you can go straight to hell because that's a fundamental scumhunting technique that I've used even when I was a VI in 2009. It's carried over throughout my games over the years, and likely influenced other players to act similarly. (For instance, AP's posting in Anything Goes started out semi-seriously. He was not entirely serious...yet he was not entirely joking, either. It was a mid-way between the two, scumhunting in his own unique way.)

mastin is scum. this is too abrasive to be town mastin. mastin is all about working and interacting with other people. I can't see town-him ever telling people to go "straight to hell". not only that but he's implying RC is worse than a VI bc he's saying that was a scumhunting technique he used ever since he was a VI. not only that but he's being suspicious of RC without actually trying to figure anything out about his alignment and he instead writes him off as town. put two and two together and he's basically discrediting and downplaying the skill level of someone he thinks is town which is smth I could never see from someone who enjoys the humanity aspect o the game. the rest of the post is way too forceful and not similar at all to what I know of his towngame (compare to these posts from AOT 1 2)
545 and now mastin and vezok are both going to Majiffy. this feels like the exact same fking thing as what happened in AOT where he and Pasch townread each other and had practically the same reads
554 mb I'm off bc of disappearing posts but it feels like Aegor is slipping through the cracks and he literally put practically all the major scumspects. townread here took a bit of a hit
560 add "confrontational attitude" to the list of reasons mastin is scum
598 Alp is another player who it feels like they're slipping through the cracks
617 ok yeah Rubicon is probably town. I like his theory about "town frustration" and I like how he's pushing for answers (i get that exact same feeling when people ignore my questions and I want answers)
627 hahaha this is town as shit, never lynch this guy
644 pidgey town
679 is this really all you have to say?

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I didn't recheck my post before posting

nor do I feel like it

readslist coming

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how sure are you of AP town?

also why is mastin town and what's your read on vezok? those two are together. do you think their interactions are different from the mastin/Pasch interactions in AOT?

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confusion about heads. pitoli.

Ffery you pain me.

Do I need to start signing my posts?

Or is this pieguy. Why are you talking in third person pie

Will get more into this game when I'm back from my trip

It was ffery. I was confusing alpazard with a hydra I saw in another game in sign-ups. My brain has been rewired. No need to sign posts unless you just want to.

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that post was ffery. I started at my giant wall

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Cautious town read on Svenskt.

Why?

Why what? Why my read is cautious? Why it's town?

Inner Town Circle: AP, RedCoyote, Thor, Zdenek, Toogeloo
Outer Town Circle: BBMolla, Aegor (candidate for inner), Bulbazak, Peregrine, dopog
Rather not lynch today: Nero Cain, Rubicon, Sven?, Vezok?

These people really need to step their game up or get dunked: DGBKid3, ActionDan, Alpazard, Majiffy
Lynch, die, scum: mastin2, GIF, pidgey, Sekai

Stop sucking at this game.

Please be town.

You should be in a pretty good position to discern our alignment.

A GiF scumread is laughable.

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Why is he a cautious town read?

I used to be pretty good at reading him, but we haven't played any games in a long while except for a bastard large theme game Majiffy ran that didn't have a town - just a bunch of factions with a combo of conflicting and non-conflicting wincons. I think I'm seeing town-svenskt here, but it's been a long time since I've played with town-svenskt and his game has probably changed in that time.

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Lest we forget. (scum meta for Sven)

Are you seeing similarities in his play between this game and that one?

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You're going to see that post quoted. Smugly.

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Lest we forget. (scum meta for Sven)

Are you seeing similarities in his play between this game and that one?

That was a long time ago, so I remember the game, but not the details. I do remember that before getting into it with vengeful townie, that I started with a Sven scumread but ended up dropping it by the time I caught up. The link is for meta-checkers to check and give objective opinion on.

My vote is on Sven for fake scumhunting (illogic train in 786).

I wind up re-skimming that game and the borkgame micro every time svenskt and I play together, which is maybe why it's a good thing we don't play together that often. With the exception of Nacho, all of the scumteam was in my scumpile on night 1. And Cephrir, who was inexplicably town.

I'm not seeing amnesiac-svenskt so far.

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Lest we forget. (scum meta for Sven)

Are you seeing similarities in his play between this game and that one?

That was a long time ago, so I remember the game, but not the details. I do remember that before getting into it with vengeful townie, that I started with a Sven scumread but ended up dropping it by the time I caught up. The link is for meta-checkers to check and give objective opinion on.

My vote is on Sven for fake scumhunting (illogic train in 786).

I wind up re-skimming that game and the borkgame micro every time svenskt and I play together, which is maybe why it's a good thing we don't play together that often. With the exception of Nacho, all of the scumteam was in my scumpile on night 1. And Cephrir, who was inexplicably town.

I'm not seeing amnesiac-svenskt so far.

I skimmed over part of it also. While I'm also not seeing Amnesiac-Sven directly, I'm assuming a year has improved his English and his ability to play scum. We'll see.

file it under peregrinedv logic

he wants me to be scum

Logic or not, he was in my scumpile until the last page or so. :/

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Do you really believe a scum player would shut you down that way, when a modicum of cooperation would probably deflect you?

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You missed something about my post.

Bulba might see it. I realized while typing it that he and I didn't hydra in such a great game for seeing the seamed side of my townhunting approach.

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You already know this isn't a tell from me. Additionally, I already explained my feelings on the matter, in that RC hit some very sensitive notes that I was ticked off about. I also was legitimately ticked off at him--because he's a player I know and respect. Because I've been playing with RC since before he joined MS.net. (He was among the top EM players in our day. I was also fairly good.) Because he's someone I expected to be better, and then he presented those absolutely-crappy reasonings and scumreads.

so your read on him was entirely BOP?

also why would you ever say the first sentence? this was part of my read on you in AOT and you know it. you started berating Tammy for "not knowing who's scum when you flip town" instead of actually trying to work it out. this feels like the same thing. mb "forceful" is a better word than "abrasive"

also this:

And if you think that being semi-serious in the RVS is a scumtell for me or for anyone, you can go straight to hell because that's a fundamental scumhunting technique that I've used even when I was a VI in 2009.

is not you telling him to step it the fuck up or trying to work out his read on you, it's you berating him for scumreading you. how in any way was this post intended to tell him to step it up, or reaching out to him to fix said read? this is literally the exact same thing as what you did in AOT

wat.
Seriously, this makes no sense.

nope, it makes perfect sense. you're discrediting him by downplaying his skill level. remember what BRO did where all his scumreads were cases of "either really bad or scum"? this also makes it so you don't actually have to respond to anything he's saying which allows you to just sit there and avoid having to take heat for doing anything

I've seen Mastin be abrasive as town as well. Besides, I wouldn't call what he said here to be super abrasive. It's actually something I'd expect more from a town player, and Mastin's later post saying that there was no better way to say that, and that as scum he could have left it unsaid further proves that. I also don't think he's implying anything about RC that you do. He's just saying that he completely disagrees with RC's reads. And if you really want to prove that town Mastin wouldn't do this, you need to post evidence from his town games, not his scum games, which again, are not similar to this post at all.

except this means fuck all bc he came up with this AFTER he found out I didn't like it. it seems like an excuse he just made up so he could justify it to me later

your point about needing to post evidence from his town games as opposed to his scumgames sucks and feels like scum WK'ing. quit trying to write off my suspicion bc I'm not proving it by your paramaters

The same can be said about Mastin and I. Are we scumbuddies together?

nope, just an observation about smth interesting I noticed going on between two of my scumreads that matches how mastin has interacted with scumbuddies before

Aegor seems to be like Rainbowdash in terms of getting rid of the chaff early on. I don't like how you're going after him here for it, though.

why not? and do you disagree that scum are slipping through the cracks this game?

also you make this sound like I should know how Aegor plays. why would you assume this?

I wouldn't call this confrontational. Why would you? I can't decide whether you're scum trying to get rid of a strong player with decent suspicion, or if you're town stuck too far in conf. bias to be of any use.

So vig me. I'm a slacker. Doesn't change my alignment.

also, right back at you. how can I be sure this isn't you trying to get rid of ffery who's a p strong player? some people even say I'm a strong player so this counts as double \o/ your collective stance on our slot is also fencesitting at its finest ("ffery might be town but at the same time pie is kind of making me doubt it") and makes sense in the context of avoiding confrontation with ffery while also trying to keep suspicion on our slot

WHY WOULD YOU EVER DEFEND SOMEONE FROM SOMEONE WHO'S JUST STARTING TO HEAT HER UP? this reminds me of IN when I was pushing Varsoon and zmuffin-scum swooped in to save him. none of your points are actually any good and there's definitely nothing good enough in there to warrant you jumping into my line of questioning like this. nice try. fail. die :>

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@AP:

why'd you go from vezok scum to vezok town? also did you change your mind on mastin? if so, why?

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all I could find about mastin was that you're gut-zoning her. is there anything specific to it?

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Except you never went into depth about what you didn't like. Mastin figured it out herself and explained it, and even then, you go full tilt at attacking her for something that is actually a null reason.

this is blatantly false. ffery told everyone what I didn't like before mastin said anything about it. and even then she didn't explain shit and just said "herp derp that was the scummiest part of the reply. oh well"

what she said was in no way a response to any concern I had. like really? is it a coincidence that the part I dislike so happens to be the scummiest part of the post?

the thing with this is I pegged the fuck out of mastin for this same thing (abrasiveness/forcefulness) before. mastin KNOWS this and so if she's scum she knows I'd peg her for the same thing here. so the fact that she "explained" it means fuck all considering if she's scum she already knew what I was going to do

Your reasoning is bad. I'm showing why it's bad, and I'm saying if you want to prove that town Mastin doesn't do this, then you better provide examples from some town games.

And can you please be consistent regarding your scum reads? Is Mastin scum, or am I scum WKing Mastin? You can't have it both ways.

again, right back at you. you were saying scum-mastin's tone is way different than it is here but you didn't link any scumgames and instead said this was more in line with his towngames. you're drawing parallels to his towngame, I'm drawing parallels to his scumgame. this is the problem. you're asking me to prove shit without actually doing anything about it yourself and it feels like scum busywork to shut down my mastin push

also I'm not trying to figure out the whole damn puzzle at once. whenever I try that it doesn't work. you're scummy, so I'm pushing you. in this case, idgaf about mastin's actions in relation to yours, although your actions make sense from a scum POV regardless of mastin's alignment (either you're WK'ing him or defending him as a scum partner)

this angle about "consistency" is the easiest angle for scum to push to try to discredit suspicion and I'm inclined to think you're scum for it. why don't you try directly addressing my points instead of attempting to use "you're inconsistent" as a defense?

Saying someone is scum because they want to policy lynch is a cheap attack, especially for someone who is supposedly as experienced at the game like you're professing.

another misrep. I never said that, I said Aegor might be scum bc I got the feeling he was trying to slip through the cracks. I'm looking at the people who are just coasting by bc I have townreads on just about all the active players besides mastin. wanting a PL has literally NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

and why are you putting words in my mouth? I said other people seem to think I'm a good player for some reason (even though I'm really not), not that I actually am. you're twisting my words around to suit your arguments

I don't think that's the case at all. I think town's doing a very good job this game of coming together, and if that's the case, being lurking scum in a game with a unified town is very dangerous. I expect we'll have a very good town block by the end of the day, which means that it'll be very easy to find and lynch scum.

so you read my response about Aegor slipping through the cracks, made this response indicating you read and understood my point, and then claimed I was scumreading him for wanting to PL someone? this feels like an intentional misrep, but ffery tells me you tunnel for weird shit so

How he plays should be obvious enough. He's playing very similar to Rainbowdash (Hence why I gave the example.), in that he is scumhunting, but is also interested in making sure town doesn't have to deal with players that could drag it down. Even if you didn't know that, you should know enough not to attack for those reasons.

and why do you assume I know how Rainbowdash plays? I've only had one game with him, I was in a hydra and everyone was inactive as fuck (and we got replaced after D2). even if you've meta'd me, you should know this

you literally had no reason to make that assumption. you're trying to just write off my points against you by making shit up and twisting my words around without trying to understand any of them

Because your points are bad! If you are town you should feel bad for the bad reasoning you're using. Aggression is not a scumtell! Frustration is not a scumtell! Policy lynching is not a freaking scum tell! And there was no you turning up the heat. Mastin has been suspected all game, so you being nitpicky about something so stupid was not going to do a darn thing. And furthermore, she had already answered you, BEFORE you even posted that paragraph of crap! It was a non-issue, it was crap reasoning, and it was doing absolutely nothing!

nice misrep. where have I ever said any of those are scumtells?

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Amalgamated Reads.

Each player is listed in the highest grouping that one of us has them as. The other head's read is noted. The list is not seriatim.

TOWNTOWNTOWN

GIF
Zdenek

Town

RedCoyote - fferyllt has him in "maybe town"
Rubicon
BBMolla - fferyllt has him in "maybe town"
Pidgey
AngryPidgeon - pieguyn has him in "maybe town"
Svenskt - pieguyn has him in "maybe town"
Majiffy - pieguyn has him in "can't read"
Pidgey - fferyllt has him in "maybe town"

Maybe Town

SweatingChessball
Aegor
ActionDan
dopog
Nero Cain
Bulbazak - pieguy has him in "not so town"
Mastin - pieguyn has her in "not so town"
Thor - neither of us are very confident we can read him at all, and would have created a hellifino pile but atm Thor would be the only inhabitant of that pile. ffery think Thor looks less manipulative than he did in WD.

Not So Town

Vezok - ffery's townlean wore off
PeregrineV
Alpazard

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I thought about moving Peregrine up last night.

There are an awful lot of players pieguy and I are sorting differently. When we get some of that worked out I'll feel a lot better about the list.

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i dont care how you internally sort it, i cant see how you ca have rc town for what i assume is one good catchup post. pidgey i guess has eough volume for a theoretical split in reads...

I agree with you about rc and I don't understand the handful of uber-town reads he's picked up for it.

I feel like I'm maybe compensating for feeling too influenced about pidgey. I don't really understand all the negative reads he's picked up, but I've never played with him before and I haven't bothered to meta him at this point. Maybe later in the game if we're both alive. Right now, I'm resisting WotC.

peregrinev, while in total troll mode, has that resentment towards me that i think indicates town more than scum

I liked his follow-up about the amnesiac game. If he'd said this game reminds him of your play in that one I'd probably have moved my vote.

lets see it from the positive side and conclude that we agree on some stuff

Hard not to find at least some points of agreement in a player list this size.

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@Bulba

, you and my partner can wall at each other all you like, but I'll probably mostly engage scroll wheel. If you have questions for me, plz preface them with "ffery" or something so I don't miss them.

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Sven look at the general ease of other wagons forming, then look at the resistance to VezokWagon without anyone even so much as really talking about why. There seem to be a lot of people complacently placing Vezok in the scum pile, but won't put their money where their mouth is. And god forbid you question the fact that Vezok is pushing - at 36 pages in - a scumread on me as being strong and solid based on "gut feels" from early-game.

Is he in a lot of scumpiles? I thought he'd been moved up a little by at least some people who were originally scumreading him.

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@Ffery: Why did you have to role scum this game?

I figured after modding the OCRemix game and hydraing in the Trine game you'd be a lot better able to read me. :/

Your argument with pieguy reminds me a lot of day 1 of the FEA game and your Talah push. Not in the details, but in the disconnect. Aside from trying to help pieguyn figure out how to read you (assuming I'm any better) and helping him understand my read as it evolves, is pretty much all I'm willing to invest in a clusterfuck of wall exchanges.

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Sven look at the general ease of other wagons forming, then look at the resistance to VezokWagon without anyone even so much as really talking about why. There seem to be a lot of people complacently placing Vezok in the scum pile, but won't put their money where their mouth is. And god forbid you question the fact that Vezok is pushing - at 36 pages in - a scumread on me as being strong and solid based on "gut feels" from early-game.

Is he in a lot of scumpiles? I thought he'd been moved up a little by at least some people who were originally scumreading him.

Seem(s/ed) like it.

I reckon he's scum that everyone was willing to bus if necessary, and since there is little-to-no townie support, the wagon won't grow.

And you see dopog as a teammate? Or someone else whose play looks independently scummy?

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^^ This.

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@AP I've gone back and reread the normalized fun micro, trying to figure out how you managed to get to a townread on me-sangres in that game, and I realized that you didn't townread me. You eventually flipped your read on Nacho and it was mostly because we both decided you were town and tried damn hard to drag your ass out of the fire. A fire that you replaced into.

Anyway, you said something about expecting to have been wowed in that game. And I told you that I don't often do shock and awe in mafia.

This isn't going to be a shock and awe day 1, but I feel really good about where my vote is.

You should join the alpazard wagon. It will be good.

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heh. I was called out more than once for forgettable play in the normalized fun game on day 1.

proof is in the pudding, and that comes down to how good my reads are and whether I can get my scumreads lynched.

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One thing you have done, though, is absolutely convince me you're town. You're not looking for easy lynches to power through asap. You're not steamrolling. You're looking around, evaluating, and rethinking and rechecking as you go.

[sekai no ki]

I think you may be scum, too.

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@AP,

GiF and I have played together several games where our opinions about town and scum notsci were formed. In some cases we were a hydra. In fact, we were a hydra in the game that GiF is citing as an excellent instance of scum-notsci's reaction to a vote.

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@GiF have you done your reset? Want to talk reads?

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Catching up on this game because I don't want to get prodded. I haven't had a chance to read all the posts you guys have made, but based on the ones I've looked at, I have this crazy feeling in my gut that most of you are town, and only a few of you are scum. Assuming that's correct, I also have the distinct impression that those of you who are town (I'm thinking a majority?) don't know who each other are, but the scum do know each other, and might have some form of private communication. I think this might even things out because if the scum players weren't more informed than the town, it would be hard for them to work together, and the town players would have trouble telling the difference.

Let me know if I'm missing anything.

loled.

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Also the ironic part is that my sekai read ks based on pieguy not fery
Why look at hard-to-read-fery when you have easy-to-read-pieguy

Oh bullshit. You spotted scum-me with like 1 post in ny 167.

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It's a great day for a migraine.

I've had some strange thoughts about the reads on me and why reads haven't translated to votes so much.

I think it has to do with scum needing to win the misinformation war for what amounts to a modified nighttime lynch - affected by consesnsus/majority but still up in the air.

Bulba looks particularly bad to me when I think about the game this way. He's voting for town-svenskt, whom he says is either scum or anti-town town. And yet he has a full-on scum read on me. I know bulba policy-votes, but this is kinda strange.

I expected tunes to change if the Alpazard wagon hit the tipping point. Still watching that.

AP, I want to scumread you so bad because I don't want to believe your town game is this terrible. I want to scumread you for focusing on positioning a mis-vig for tonight while letting a townwagon drift along to nightfall and a last minute rush.

Maybe I should. But, I don't. I'd be more inclined to scumread mastin for that.

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Sekai,

What do you think of RC? What do you think about what I had to say about RC?

I noticed that RC moved us up above his midpoint in his second reads list apparently because pieguy is scumreading mastin. I didn't care too much for that.

As for what you said about him, my response will have to wait until more neurons are firing. I want to get a final reads list into the thread before nightfall. Hope I can work on that and more detailed responses to the last 24 or so hours worth of pages tonight.

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AP, I want to scumread you so bad because I don't want to believe your town game is this terrible. I want to scumread you for focusing on positioning a mis-vig for tonight while letting a townwagon drift along to nightfall and a last minute rush.

What? The alpaca wagon? Town-wagon in that its all town and on scum?

svenskt wagon. The alpaca wagon has mostly grown in spite of you today.

Im declaring intent to vote it in case you are too busy posturing about me to notice.

It's become the only game in town. Of course you're declaring intent.

"focusing on positioning a misvig".

If I were giving you credit for actually strategizing, that's what I would think.

bulba is the one I suspect most in that respect. I think you're enabling this to happen though not by design.

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GiF? Thoughts?

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If Bulba's AtE was fake, he could be scum.

And I think he's a good enough player to pull a play like that?

What AtE are you talking about?

[sekai no ki]

svenskt wagon. The alpaca wagon has mostly grown in spite of you today.

What so Im responsible for aggressively dismantling the Sven wagon? I don't have a strong enough townread on him to both expending the effort to do so. You'll notice that I -am- trying to lynch other people and have started caring less and less as no one seems interested in lynching my top picks Today.

I think the day has stagnated because the biggest wagon was on town practically since RVS.

I think if you were scum you'd be a lot less here-there-everywhere and be more focused on getting a lynch across the line. That, more than anything, is why I'm reading you as town. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll be pissed, but I'll take my lumps for misreading you this badly. Basically, this is me telling a townread to pull up your damn socks and do better tomorrow.

If I were giving you credit for actually strategizing, that's what I would think.

Im not the one who brought up the night mechanic. I just listed who *I* was planning on voting (because why the hell not) and then talked to Thor about what I *should* do to maximize my usefulness with it
How the hell am I positioning a misvig (loaded language noted).

Can you not read? I'm dissing the hell out of what I think is your town game and telling you that you're helping scum.

[sekai no ki]

Basically, this is me telling a townread to pull up your damn socks and do better tomorrow.

Right except bacically by "do better" you mean "stop scumreading me"
When asked about why Im doing bad, thats really all you can throw up.

You seem to agree with a fair number of my reads. So your extended "Wah wah AP is bad" campaign feels like shit.

No, not just me. I disagreed with your GiF read and your early Mastin read. I don't know how you have a scum read on DGB/Chesskid. They could be scum but it's not at all evident atm. I also disagreed with your Vezok read though I think we've come around more there.


But, your read on me is just...amazing. You've been on my ass since really early on despite our having a number of reads in common as you just pointed out. And your reasoning is mostly nonexistant. How dare I meta-read Mastin. I'm being defensive. I'm sheeping GiF. No I'm scum with GiF. No there's only one scum in me and GiF. blah blah blah. You're trying to read me on the basis of rule-of-thumb generic tells despite me probably being one of the worst players on site to apply them to because my unfiltered reactions to games not only didn't develop in this environment, they developed in gamestates that never ever happen here.

I know we don't play the same games that often, but you've moderated or co-moderated several games I've played. I'm not a complete unknown.

Mastin has played way more often with me. However inexcusable your misread is, hers is triply so. When my eventual flip happens, think about that, I guess. Who here really had no excuse to scumread me? Retrospectively, how have these scumreads with no votes (not just mine, mind you) played into the town group consciousness and the eventual "vig" kills.

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Ffery where's your townread on me

In abeyance.

GiF I'm thinking notsci is town. This is nothing like his wagon reaction in cash cabd, which has been one of your meta yardsticks.

What are you seeing that's otherwise?

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notsci don't disappear just because your wagon is softening.

[sekai no ki]

How many ppl are on wagon right now
also youre not completely off yet so keep working.

I'm still on, but I'm off in spirit.

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heh.

we're debating PV and bulba. RC is coming up a distant third.

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heh.

we're debating PV and bulba. RC is coming up a distant third.

I had 3 votes, Bulba had 0 votes, and RedCoyote had 1 vote.

How did you acquire your faulty information?

I wasn't referring to wagons. I was talking about who we're thinking about voting and how strongly we're thinking about them.

[sekai no ki]

I wasn't referring to wagons. I was talking about who we're thinking about voting and how strongly we're thinking about them.

What's wrong with a Vezok lynch?

I haven't liked his wagon, but pieguy at one time had him in the not-so-town pile. I think the read changed. We need to talk. I was worthless for working through reads yesterday.

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heh.

we're debating PV and bulba. RC is coming up a distant third.

I had 3 votes, Bulba had 0 votes, and RedCoyote had 1 vote.

How did you acquire your faulty information?

I wasn't referring to wagons. I was talking about who we're thinking about voting and how strongly we're thinking about them.

Ahhh, and the "we" cause you're a hydra too.

OK.

Why those three?

RC because his read change on us squicked me. Pieguy thinks the change could maybe be fueled by town indignation at Mastin's read, so we're less likely to go there.

Bulba because his stance is inconsistent. I explained this yesterday. He's voting svenskt who he has at "scum or anti-town town" while his read on us is full-on scum. He says this is because he doesn't think we're a viable lynch today but I've seldom seen him compromise as early as he did on us when he's town. Given his stance I would have expected him to change his vote when he got into the scuffle with pieguy.

You because you've basically done nothing that makes me think you could be town and you're a scum read that pieguy and I agree on. I'm cautious about my read because if I kept a list of players I'd policy lynch, your name would be on it.

[sekai no ki]

I wasn't referring to wagons. I was talking about who we're thinking about voting and how strongly we're thinking about them.

What's wrong with a Vezok lynch?

I haven't liked his wagon

Even when you're town, how often do you tunnel on town day 1?

My sample size says almost always.

[sekai no ki]

Vezo
Action Dan
Red Coyote

Of those three I've been least inclined to target Action Dan, mostly because I want posts to happen between him and chesskid. But, the apparent lack of chesskid in the thread and what I have to go on re Action Dan doesn't make me happy with either of them.

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Ffery when are you going to Learn to Stop Worrying and Love the Flowchart?

I don't think I'll ever get tired of refining my own methodology.

[sekai no ki]

lolnope.

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I'd like to point out that she looked up a recent game where we were both town and analyzed why I town read her. And posted about it here.

I'll let everyone think on that.

Yep. It was to figure out if I'm right or wrong that you are town because your crap push does tweak my paranoia. even though your play here doesn't give me the vibes our games where you were scum have.

but, much as I'd like to think you're scum, I just...don't. So I'm going to sit here being my town self and see how long it takes for you to figure it out.

[sekai no ki]

And what good would that have done?

Thread sentiment seemed pretty high that we're scum. I've never seen town-you hold off on a strong scum read in the games we've played, no matter what the thread sentiment was. Not several days before deadline.

The other piece of this puzzle that makes me think you are scum is the scumread itself. You moderated my most recent scum game, and it was a pretty good example of both the good and the bad of how I play scum. You're in a better position than most of the players in this game to differentiate my scum vs town play. And you're not. You're not even trying.

[sekai no ki]

I don't see why Bulbazak having sketch reads is a reason to be suspicious of him.

I've been calling Rc town for no adequately explored reason. Srsly.

P-edit: You expect moderators to read their own games carefully? And analyze the ins and outs of your scumplay? And to be accountable for it?

I sure do. Especially moderators who are on record as players claiming that I'm hard to read. It's a golden opportunity.

[sekai no ki]

I sure do. Especially moderators who are on record as players claiming that I'm hard to read. It's a golden opportunity.

Except...not? G

enerally people believe that being TOWN in a game with someone who is scum makes for the best opportunity to learn since you are on the front line.

If you are already spoiled while reading the game, you aren't going to learn as well.

And I sure as fuck don't read MY games carefully; I skim them. Ive got other shit to read.

He's got that going for him as well. Two games where he was town and I was scum, though I was in a hydra in both cases. He also was town with me in a 3 headed hydra recently and saw how my my strategies and tactics as town translate into in-thread behaviors. That was a very small role madness game so strategies and tactics were a huge part of our play. And, we came under very heavy lynch pressure, so he knows a lot about how I push back on day 1 vs later in a game.

[sekai no ki]

I sure do. Especially moderators who are on record as players claiming that I'm hard to read. It's a golden opportunity.

Except...not? G

enerally people believe that being TOWN in a game with someone who is scum makes for the best opportunity to learn since you are on the front line.

If you are already spoiled while reading the game, you aren't going to learn as well.

And I sure as fuck don't read MY games carefully; I skim them. Ive got other shit to read.

He's got that going for him as well. Two games where he was town and I was scum, though I was in a hydra in both cases. He also was town with me in a 3 headed hydra recently and saw how my my strategies and tactics as town translate into in-thread behaviors. That was a very small role madness game so strategies and tactics were a huge part of our play. We came under very heavy lynch pressure, so he knows a fair bit about how I push back as town on day 1 vs later in a game.

[sekai no ki]

Also, AP why don't you let him respond?

[sekai no ki]

Ffery, it's no secret that I can't read you. I've stated this over and over. Heck, I can't even read Cabd, and we've hydra'd together. I was only able to catch him recently via an inconsistency, and I still wasn't confident enough to push it. Perhaps if I did, we would have won that game. You are, and probably always will be, one of those players that I take my time in devoloping a read on.

Are you actually saying that I'm harder to read than Cabd?

[sekai no ki]

Bulba because his stance is inconsistent. I explained this yesterday. He's voting svenskt who he has at "scum or anti-town town" while his read on us is full-on scum. He says this is because he doesn't think we're a viable lynch today but I've

seldom

seen him compromise as early as he did on us when he's town. Given his stance I would have expected him to change his vote when he got into the scuffle with pieguy.

I love how this starts out as an "inconsistency" case and then morphs into a meta case half way through.

1) There is nothing inconsistent about his Sven vote. Voting a leading wagon who you think is scum/anti-town is pretty pro-town IN MY OPINION.
2) Sven was trolling Bulbazak explicitly, making Bulba's vote there pretty understandable regardless of fuckelse.
3) re underlined: So he DOES compromise as town then sometimes. Since your case is based on meta and the timing of his comrpomises, Im sure you are willing to cough up meta and run some statistics on how late in the day he typically switches to compromising on scum/anti-town reads and run his play here against his townplay and determine that there is a <5% chance this game is from the population of his town games. gogo.

Fuck off.

[sekai no ki]

@Ffery: Why did you have to role scum this game?

Ffery, it's no secret that I can't read you. I've stated this over and over. Heck, I can't even read Cabd, and we've hydra'd together. I was only able to catch him recently via an inconsistency, and I still wasn't confident enough to push it. Perhaps if I did, we would have won that game. You are, and probably always will be, one of those players that I take my time in devoloping a read on.

I'll just leave this here.

[sekai no ki]

I read that post as a joke.

p-edit: @ffery

I did at first, too. but he's owned that read when I've pushed him about scumreading me.

[sekai no ki]

No idea what you're saying about the order of events.

I've called him out for a full-on scumread at least twice starting with yesterday when I floated my paranoia about all the scumreads on me that haven't become votes.

He didn't correct me about having a full-on scumread. He defended keeping his vote on svenskt.

[sekai no ki]

well, he did claim not to be able to read me just now. Which doesn't line up very well with the post you just quoted where he said he'd switch to us in a heartbeat, now does it?

[sekai no ki]

well, he did claim not to be able to read me just now. Which doesn't line up very well with the post you just quoted where he said he'd switch to us in a heartbeat, now does it?

I can easily see that coming from town.

Because the only reason he said he doesn't read you well is because you were calling him scum for scumreading you in the first place. I mean, what is he going to say about that, lol. Its not elegant, but I dont see anything scummy.

I DO see you trying to shove an inconsistency case on him over a response he gave when you called him scum purely for misreading you.

Sorry, AP.

Your whole defense of him hinges on that post being a joke and him not scumreading us at that point. And he just invalidated that.

But, bulba not letting you fight his fight for him actually does look a lot more town than if he'd done otherwise.

[sekai no ki]

Speaking of inconsistencies, ffery is still voting for Alpazard. If that vote is still being useless in the next 10 minutes, Im turning ffery into a Hated until death do us part.

Do it now, then. I'd unvote if Alpazard were in any danger at this point, but I'm not going to put my vote somewhere else until pieguy and I catch up sometime later today.

[sekai no ki]

Not a towntell, no. But you have repeatedly given him answers to my pushes and questions, and he's come up with bulba-answers rather than channeling you every time.

It's more than enough for me to move on for now.

And like I said earlier, you really should let players answer on their own.

You're so blindly tunneling at this point that you don't even give a fuck about screwing up a line of questioning. No matter what my alignment, bulba's answers should help you and other players firm up a read on him.

[sekai no ki]

God damn bulba, are you really that SHIT at playing scum?


You comodded Maniacal. What do you think?

Did you already forget that he doesn't believe moderators read their own games well enough to glean anything at all about the players?

[sekai no ki]

We're going to

VOTE: Vezok

Consensus-wise we are pretty much equally happy with a PV lynch.

pie is still scumreading the hell out of mastin. My bulba read has softened mostly because he didn't take the opportunity to wave off a discrepancy.

[sekai no ki]

To Clarify - this is the zombine Nom list

Vezok
Action Dan
BBMolla

Nope.

[sekai no ki]

Who would you recommend and why? Because that list looks pretty excellent to me.

Not BBMolla.

Vezok is probably getting lynched. If not, he's good. I'd put PV and RC there. I won't fight to keep AD off the list, but I think he's sortable. pie would want mastin in the list.

I don't like the way you're trying to strong-arm this.

[sekai no ki]

I don't like the way you're trying to strong-arm this.

Hollow attempt to save buddies from NK mechanic noted.

If it turns out you're actually scum, then you will never get past me with this crap again.

Otherwise, l expect abject apologies after my flip. In iambic pentameter.

[sekai no ki]

Oh, and a tribute avatar wouldn't go amiss either.

[sekai no ki]

UNVOTE

[sekai no ki]

Town fatalism sucks and is a boil on the current site meta's butt so I apologize but not much.

Go ahead and flashwagon me. There were a couple reasons why I didn't put a vote down right away after unvoting Vezok and one of those reasons was to see who (besides AP) would show some appetite for lynching us if the PV wagon wasn't nudged.

Speaking of which PV, is looking pretty damn town to my eyes.

And, I've come around to scum-mastin. I should have listened more to pieguy on that one.

Also, majiffy, next time you chivvy me to vote with you on day 1, I'll probably link to this game and stick with lolnope.

[sekai no ki]

Go ahead and flashwagon me. There were a couple reasons why I didn't put a vote down right away after unvoting Vezok and one of those reasons was to see who (besides AP) would show some appetite for lynching us if the PV wagon wasn't nudged.

ITT, we learn that sekai's a goon and Dan's a mafia PR.

here's hoping my flip gives you a bad case of lynchitis.

[sekai no ki]

Oh. Well, then. Dan's probably town.

VOTE: sekai no ki.

So much for calling me Dan's goon.

I find it really difficult to believe that town-you would have missed all the stuff that looked like pr tells dropping in the thread at that point.

All I'm going to do for the rest of this game day is point out your shit play and call it scummy.

[sekai no ki]

Who else claimed Boomer other than Vezok?

How on earth is it beneficial to town for me to answer that question? Suffice to say that I have actually been reading the thread closely enough to kno' fo' sho'.

Town.

[sekai no ki]

^^ not an infomancer.

[sekai no ki]

Because scum players NEVER try to look pro-town by opposing things like claims and all that. Fucking WOW ffery. Get your shit together this game.

My shit is in order. It took me less than ten seconds to do the modicum of necessary research.

Pull your damn socks up.

[sekai no ki]

Your read on Aegor for that post is terrible.

I dont care whether or not you did the necessary research to figure it out.

you forgot fabricated.

[sekai no ki]

nope.

[sekai no ki]

I still think GIF is town unless he's significantly increased his scum game over the past two to three months. (plausible but eh.)

don't judge his scum game by Mac's mini. Neither of us had the time to play that game even half-assed.

Mini 1515 would be a much better example of what to expect from scum-GiF.

If that game has anything to do with your townreading me, it's also a red herring.

[sekai no ki]

nope.

Vote someone.

VOTE: Mastin

[sekai no ki]

nope.

Vote someone.

VOTE: Mastin

One sentence why I should vote him?

Pie's reasons are her excessive abrasiveness and forcefulness. I'm a little wary of that because the abrasiveness and forcefulness mostly came out most strongly in the exchange with Red Coyote, who I am definitely not townreading. For me, it's the complete lack of attention to key details in the game thread as the last minute wagons have risen and fallen. Someone who's town should not be missing the stuff Mastin has glossed over.

[sekai no ki]

Amalgamated Reads Update

TOWNTOWNTOWN

GIF
Zdenek
Aegor
Action Dan
PeregrineV

Town

BBMolla
AngryPidgeon
Svenskt
Bulbazak
Sweating Chessball
Alpazard
Vesok (neither of us are fully convinced by the claim, so he's teetering on the brink between low-tier town and null)

Maybe Town

Rubicon
dopog
Nero Cain
Pidgey
majiffy

Not So Town

Mastin
RedCoyote
Thor

[sekai no ki]

Should note that Pie is more skepticall of AP's towniness than I am. In his experience scum walk through/derail/discredit lines of questioning way more frequently than town do.

AP's play is reminding me of Wisdom-style tunneling, and I think the question-derailing is coming from raging confbias.

[sekai no ki]

Also, before day closes, I hope to have a better grasp of Thor's posting. I'm offput by his focus on the town nks and the way he's trying to shape the three submissions, but there are other things he's posted that I feel are kinda towny. Some distance and review may change that read.

[sekai no ki]

snk, your Bulbazak read makes no sense.

how so?

[sekai no ki]

I'd rather if you explained it to me.

I liked his response to my pushback. And, wrt to the discrepancy in his stance, AP gift-wrapped an explanation for it, and he didn't take it up. Nor did he try to paint it as something else, himself. He's owned the discrepancy unapologetically. That's the most town response I think I can expect from the exchange.

There are some philosophical things involved in my read change as well, but I doubt it makes sense outside my approach to mafia. There's an entire way of looking at the game that is sort of like air to me. I walk through it, I can see that other people see stuff in a person's posts that resonates for them, and to me whatever it is, it's completely invisible. I've learned to derive some of it by looking at other players' reactions to a resonance that I simply don't see or hear.

The befuddlement tends to be mutual, and I see players who work entirely in that game-space that virtually doesn't exist for me as scummy. It takes a long time to build a decent model of their play. bulba is one of those players for me. And I'm coming to accept that my approach to the game is as tenuous to him as his approach is to me.

[sekai no ki]

Also, before day closes, I hope to have a better grasp of Thor's posting. I'm offput by his focus on the town nks and the way he's trying to shape the three submissions, but there are other things he's posted that I feel are kinda towny. Some distance and review may change that read.

TownThor is similar in tonality and approach to TownMajiffy.

And TownMajiffy's approach is tailored to work just as well when Majiffy is scum. It's optimized for Majiffy-wins, not town-wins. We've been over this territory before, I think.

[sekai no ki]

And TownMajiffy's approach is tailored to work just as well when Majiffy is scum. It's optimized for Majiffy-wins, not town-wins. We've been over this territory before, I think.

As I was saying...

TownThor is similar in tonality and approach to TownMajiffy.

inorite?

[sekai no ki]

Mollie feels confident there's a difference in my town and scum play. Maybe you can find that key and apply it to Thor.

I seem to have the key. Or a key. Large games are too noisy to get there quickly unless you're pretty overtly town. I haven't played enough with Thor to figure out how to generalize things yet.

[sekai no ki]

Shrug.

What's your opinion of Thor?

[sekai no ki]

mastin is totally town. Count me out.

This is a scum-driven wagon if I've ever seen one. I am ashamed of any townies riding it.

Okay.

Then we should lynch me. Nero is a complete shot in the dark given what's in the game thread.

My flip will resolve a ton of misconceptions.

My ONLY concern about flipping town today or tonight is worry that town dumbasses will lynch GiF tomorrow.

UNVOTE

[sekai no ki]

[quote="In post 1847, mastin2"][/quote]

I'll never self-vote as town again. Not unless it's to avoid no-lynch and evens, and probably not even then.

DGB thinks you're town. If that's true, then all that shit you're pouring at AP, reread it.

You can do it after I flip and think about how truly awful you've been this game.

[sekai no ki]

My ONLY concern about flipping town today or tonight is worry that town dumbasses will lynch GiF tomorrow.

UNVOTE

Wow, good job dismantling the mastin on wagon. Fucking wow.

Yes you are being determinedly useless we get it, now revote mastin plz.

Pretty sure my flip will do more to get your head out of your ass than just about any game-state change I can imagine.

Unlike Mastin, I see circumstances where removing myself from the game improves the situation for my team when I'm town. As scum, being lynched may be inevitable sometimes but every game day it takes and every town pr put under pressure improves the game state for my team.

That is not what I'm doing here.

[sekai no ki]

I don't give 2 shits, please be useful and help me lynch mastin.

I'm walking away for a few hours. When I come back, I'll try to see if your push on Mastin is objectively any more sound than your push on me. And if Mastin's really any different from you in terms of confbias about me vs scum-push.

[sekai no ki]

3. Sekai no Ki (Fferyllt/Pieguyn Hydra)
^Scum, through-and-through. I've been pounding this one in, but the simplest way of saying it is that their entire posting has zero scumhunting in it, and is entirely focused on manipulating things. They're survivalistic and using basically every trick in the scumbag's handbook.

For chrissake Mastin. How you can call me survivalistic given the crap that YOU are pulling is beyond me. All the way down to telling me to vote myself and destroy some of the usefulness of my wagon no matter what my alignment. You advise players not to do that even as scum in your MD threads but here you are adding it to your crap scumcase in an actual game.

You're going to be a while regaining the respect you're squandering in this game.

You ought to know by now that I townhunt and POE more than I scumhunt, especially on day 1. It gets masked somewhat when hydraing, but that's my approach unless something odd catches my eye.

You have definitely caught my eye. I want to put my vote back on you right here and right now for this utter crap of a read. Your appeals to AP to open his eyes when your read of me is so incredibly bad boggles my mind. The hypocrisy is so far beyond what I'd put past you as scum that I don't even know what to think anymore.

If you're both actually town then town is fucked.

[sekai no ki]

3. Sekai no Ki (Fferyllt/Pieguyn Hydra)
^Scum, through-and-through. I've been pounding this one in, but the simplest way of saying it is that their entire posting has zero scumhunting in it, and is entirely focused on manipulating things. They're survivalistic and using basically every trick in the scumbag's handbook.

For chrissake Mastin. How you can call me survivalistic given the crap that YOU are pulling is beyond me. All the way down to telling me to vote myself and destroy some of the usefulness of my wagon no matter what my alignment. You advise players not to do that even as scum in your MD threads but here you are adding it to your crap scumcase in an actual game.

You're going to be a while regaining the respect you're squandering in this game.

You ought to know by now that I townhunt and POE more than I scumhunt, especially on day 1. It gets masked somewhat when hydraing, but that's my approach unless something odd catches my eye.

You have definitely caught my eye. I want to put my vote back on you right here and right now for this utter crap of a read. Your appeals to AP to open his eyes when your read of me is so incredibly bad boggles my mind. The hypocrisy is so far beyond what I'd put past you as scum that I don't even know what to think anymore.

If you're both actually town then town is fucked.

actually, that post is the best thing mastin has posted so far. he has me as scum but i am glad i get town vibes from him... i guess i dont get your reaction. I mean so what if mastin has you as scum, he has been trolling all game, no one is following him.

if you are town i feel like you should walk away from that post with a "hmm, glad i get some townvibes from him, that limits the field", instead you focus on his read on you...

help me out here

Hypocrisy isn't a scum tell. That plus wrapping my head around the idea that she could be that blind to the parallels and to pushing me to self vote and calling it scummy not to given her own game philosophy.

I'm way too outraged and angry to be effective right now.

[sekai no ki]

being wrong does not equal being scum, cmon

That's what I said. Admittedly with some histrionics thrown in.

[sekai no ki]

Cause ffery is either scum or being a complete derp this game.

Has 3 scumreads.

One of them is mastin. Dissolves mastin CW whilst QQing about mastin.

One of them is Thor. Wants to talk to Thor in order to resolve this one.

Dear god.

Don't hedge. Own your misread.

[sekai no ki]

Cause ffery is either scum or being a complete derp this game.

Has 3 scumreads.

Artifact of my style of play. I townhunt and PoE, especially on day 1 in large games, unless something catches my eye.

One of them is mastin. Dissolves mastin CW whilst QQing about mastin.

Angry as I am at Mastin, I can see some town in his reach-out to you. Also, I can't really explain it very well, but look at when and where DGB swoops in and pokes a stick in the spokes of a bandwagon. The wagons she's derailed or derided don't make sense from a scum perspective. The wagonned players don't make sense as a scum team. And the closer to deadline we get without a dominant wagon the more unpredictable the eventual dominant wagon becomes.

One of them is Thor. Wants to talk to Thor in order to resolve this one.

I said nothing about talking to Thor.

Dear god.

The problem with your case is that everything I've done has been the product of town motivation heavily laced with irritation at being tunneled by a couple players I really thought knew me well enough that a day 1 tunnel would never happen when I'm town. I could have easily avoided the confrontations that fed the tunnels, and would have done so as scum.

I don't even want to pull myself out of the fire here. I look ahead to more days of petty discrediting of every post I make, providing tons of distraction for scum and I don't see my presence in the game as a net benefit to town.

[sekai no ki]

Angry as I am at Mastin, I can see some town in his reach-out to you.

Except she would do that as either alignment. In fact reaching out to me is something I tend to associate with SCUM mastin more than town.

I said nothing about talking to Thor.

Also, before day closes, I hope to have a better grasp of Thor's posting. I'm offput by his focus on the town nks and the way he's trying to shape the three submissions, but there are other things he's posted that I feel are kinda towny. Some distance and review may change that read.

Ok whatever, same idea ^

The wagons she's derailed or derided don't make sense from a scum perspective.

Uhhhh, ok? She hasn't been at the forefront of swinging wagons around. Shes been showing up after the momentum is in place already and going with it. So IDK why you are seeing super town motivation here.

She's been going against it, not with it.

The momentum changed with my unvote. I knew it would. I knew where the momentum would go next.

You (and mastin at times) have hypothesized a scum team based in part on my actions, which is why I think my flip will force a reset. Action Dan was scum PR because of associations with me. Mastin should have doubts if she's town because she knows game tempo and momentum. Her wagon might have faded eventually in the face of all the AtE, but it faded abruptly and very predictaably in my direction with my unvote. Very predicably. You cannot think I unvoted expecting anything else. So your choices here are suicidal scum or suicidal town. And the effect wincon has on behavior dictates which of those is more likely, especially on day 1.

The only way scum suicidal behavior makes sense is if she and I are both scum. And that is one thing I know for a fact to be wrong. And she knows it as well because either she's town or she's scum and knows I'm not. Your stance at least makes more sense than hers does if she's town.

[sekai no ki]

If you ignore every other read I've put forth, don't ignore my GiF read. We've been undeclared in-thread masons.

[sekai no ki]

Actually, I agree with you about Majiffy. I'd look pretty carefully there tomorrow.

[sekai no ki]

Thor is implying that we ar elynching one of Sekai or Dan today and kind of forgets about RC? Thats what it looks like. I find it less likely that Thor purposely is ignoring the RC wagon and more likely that hes just personally more interested in other people.

Not saying this makes him town, but I really don't see explicit scum motivation behind him
a) trying to game the mechanic
b) swapping RC off his list for other people

I see scum motivation in being more interested in personally directing the night mechanic than in who gets lynched today. It's odd that he's that sloppy about it, though, to not even notice someone he has in the either/or slot isn't at all likely to be the 1st runner up today. I'm not sure what to make of that aspect of it, but if AD is town (and I kinda think he is) then Thor won't look very town come the denoument.

[sekai no ki]

I see scum motivation in being more interested in personally directing the night mechanic than in who gets lynched today.

Its to the same end though, so I dont. There is also potential town motivation behind it so its really not a tell at all.

except that scum can see what's happening to the lynch bandwagons and know how much of an oar is needed. The night mechanic is another story.

That's true of town as well, but town don't know if a current lynch wagon is a bad idea or not.

[sekai no ki]

svenskt, talk to me about mastin-town.

[sekai no ki]

VOTE: Thor

fferyllt head V/LA until sometime Thursday.

[sekai no ki]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mastin

try again

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mastin

[sekai no ki]

in the meantie, can i have feedback on this

You have GIF there twice, but that aside, I don't get the GIF read. Still null.
Don't like you having Fferyslot as a strong town read. I think it makes sense with Mastin.
Zden, Thor town is good.

Do you have any other reads or is that it?

I think i can read ffer fairly well. I dont think i ever have missread her. In your oz game she was legitly concerned that i was on to her and chose to cult me or whatever (this was early before everyone figured out the setting). I think the best way to describe what i see from her this game is "cautiously curious", which i find towny from her.

In what way does she make sense with mastin?

I have a few weaker townreads, more like gut hunches.

if amstin actually flips scum i´d hate it couse rereading him for spew will drain my will to live

"cautiously curious" does describe some of my town behaviors pretty well.

But those behaviors have been almost completely subsumed by irritability (which is another town tell) and fatalism (which is null, but which manifests in different ways depending on my alignment). All three are traits I'm trying (so far not very successfully) to drag into my scum game.

It worries me that you're describing my behavior this game as something that was largely missing on day 1.

[sekai no ki]

VOTE: Rubicon

amnesiac cop is rocking this game.

[sekai no ki]

svenskt

I want to talk with you before this game day ends. I almost added you to my pseudo-vig list night 2 on the back of mastin's alignment.

Are there other games where you said you didn't bother to read Mastin's posts?

You didn't read his posts, except you did read his readslist and you thought it looked town.

OTOH you were pretty meh about being the leading bandwagon for a pretty good chunk of day 1.

[sekai no ki]

svenskt

I want to talk with you before this game day ends. I almost added you to my pseudo-vig list night 2 on the back of mastin's alignment.

Are there other games where you said you didn't bother to read Mastin's posts?

You didn't read his posts, except you did read his readslist and you thought it looked town.

OTOH you were pretty meh about being the leading bandwagon for a pretty good chunk of day 1.

i actually skim every post. like "is he trolling me?" "is reading this a waste of time?" the readlist post is not.
speaking of that readlist, if memory serves you where buthurt or pretending to be butthurt about his read on you and i remember at the time it looking wierd. i´ll have to look back on that

vote rubicon

Suspicion begets suspicion.

Interesting.

[sekai no ki]

That was suspicion? I thought you were trying to talk me down from MY suspicion of mastin. Suspicion that I'd already relinquished, unfortunately.

[sekai no ki]

This is where i am at

[0] BBMolla:
[0] Majiffy:
[0] LeMidget:
[0] Zdenek:
[0] Sekai No Ki:

[0] GuyInFreezer:
[0] Aegor:
[0] Metal Sonic:
[0] ActionDan:
[0] PeregrineV:

[0] Vezokpiraka:
[0] Pidgey:
[0] Alpazard:


VOTE: alp

I thought you were suspicious of me yesterday.

[sekai no ki]

Our targets last night:

vezok
majiffy
metal sonic

[sekai no ki]

I have a theory that scum got the results on another scum and now don't want to reveal it and lose another buddy

Theory doesn't hold water. Not claiming the result would mean the amnesiac cop assumes both are scum.

[sekai no ki]

VOTE: Majiffy

[sekai no ki]

I have a theory that scum got the results on another scum and now don't want to reveal it and lose another buddy

Theory doesn't hold water. Not claiming the result would mean the amnesiac cop assumes both are scum.

Yeah, so why did alpazard put forth this incorrect theory?

I don't know. I don't see a scum-advantage in putting it forward. Do you?

[sekai no ki]

i want to go on the record and say that ffer not being here and #solving both annoys and worries me

In part unavoidable due to travel and a family member's illness. In part due to going into suicide mode late day 1 and the next two days being lolquicklynches. I am going to try really hard to stay awake long enough tonight to work on this game.

[sekai no ki]

UNVOTE

[sekai no ki]

Yeah town MS here.

Hi.

[sekai no ki]

I'm trying to envision how Mastin's reaction to bbmolla could be a partner thing.

Maybe. She rolled over really quickly, like it didn't occur to her to fight back until too late, which seems strange if it was a pre-planned thing with a scum partner. It doesn't feel right, though.

[sekai no ki]

I'm trying to envision how Mastin's reaction to bbmolla could be a partner thing.

Maybe. She rolled over really quickly, like it didn't occur to her to fight back until too late, which seems strange if it was a pre-planned thing with a scum partner. It doesn't feel right, though.

Actually, I was thinking kinda backwards here. Mastin not pushing back hard, especially at the start does look like maybe a reaction to a partner, especially if scum don't have daytalk.

I went back to check the first game to be sure. Scum didn't have day talk in that one. http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/aXcEGxnwxaPs

[sekai no ki]

Did the amn cop send you the results again?

[sekai no ki]

As far as I understand, Amnesiac selects a person to be investigated and selects someone to recieve the report. I was that person for night 1 and night 2. I don't know who for night 3.

Ah. You've already said.

Spoiler:

[sekai no ki]

Can you say how you know they didn't to anything?

[sekai no ki]

Do I have to?

I phrased it as a question because I don't know if you should, or if you can.

I'm not demanding info atm.

[sekai no ki]

If what I've given isn't enough for you to believe me, I will out completely. It will be anti town if I have to though.

It's enough for now imo.

I'm leaning toward voting PV. Kinda depends on his replies.

[sekai no ki]

VOTE: PV

I want to hear what PV has to say. Then we could decide. Not liking vezok's 2777.

you were pretty quick to vote bbmolla after PV's post.

[sekai no ki]

heh. I just went back to quote that post.

[sekai no ki]

Why aren't you posting the flavor?