NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[PeregrineV]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

[PeregrineV]

Yeah there is nothing town about a joke early in the game. Sheesh.

I have nothing so far considering I made one comment right before I left for home, just got home when I made the other comment while skimming the game.

So yeah... I have no "take" on this game so far at all, lol. Except for the usual people that are too uptight.

vote: Doc

I'll be back tomorrow to offer actual opinions, and this vote is based on a skim of the thread.

A joke usually indicates humor, or can be used to relieve tension. Your opening post did none of that. And if a joke, you forgot to show you are town by self-voting.

It's all of 30 posts. What's there to skim?

Vote: bjc

Would also throw a vote BBMolla's way for scum-placing out.

[PeregrineV]

Prod received. Will read today.

[PeregrineV]

I'm V/LA due to a brew competition this weekend. I'll be active starting Monday.

That said... what is this?

Would also throw a vote BBMolla's way for scum-placing out.

Does BBMolla

actually

have a track record of replacing out of games as scum or are you being terrible for no reason?

You are better than this.

VOTE: PeregrineV

I'll say yes and let you prove otherwise.

I'd normally give you grief for this, but since we've actually played together quite a bit, I'll allow you to suggest it.

Someone claimed scum. Thoughts on that.

[PeregrineV]

I just hate this sort of behaviour. And then he follows it up with "It's just a joke, sheesh" acting all surprised people are jumping on him after he claimed scum. Come on.

[PeregrineV]

Wow thread explosion already?

Talah is a he BTW he was in one of the Newbie games I modded.

Yates is correct that vote on BB is rather suspicious, I have played with BB a lot and he replaces out due to RL issues not because of alignment.


VOTE: Pere

I don't think anyone IS voting him.

[PeregrineV]

Why bjc?

He claimed scum with his first post. Maybe to distract from that very fact, maybe to assuage his guilt over the fact.
Maybe he's town and he's trying to catch scum. For everyone assuming he's town trying to catch scum, analyze the total sum of his followup to his scum claim. Then analyze the total sum of the rest of his play. Explain how it is town. Use charts, graphs, links, etc. Use his own words and yours. TIA.

@Mastin- your posts look like scum-Mastin.

Damon is town.
talah is town
ThAd is town.
Yates is town.
Rogers is town.

Some others I want to give town reads, but you have yet to flip the switch.

@Mod-Nero hasn't posted yet, he still in this game?

[PeregrineV]

@Zdenek

- Confused on your bjc read and analysis. Please restate.

[PeregrineV]

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

How can those reads have any validity without a read on bjc?

[PeregrineV]

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

How can those reads have any validity without a read on bjc?

Because they aren't about him.
The issue I had with ThAd's post was that he shielded himself from complaints that he was taking the bait by making a joke about it.

(Scum bait or town bait?)

The issue I had with Doc's post was the comment about this deserves a vote later. It's him opening up the door to get off the Talah wagon.

(To vote scum bjc to bus or vote town bjc to mislynch?)

The issue I had with Damon Gant's post was that he was making out of game excuses. I also didn't like that he called the post peculiar (as opposed to scummy).

(so is he distancing from scum-bjc or fencesitting on town-bjc?)

I don't feel you can adequately assign alignments to reactions-to-bjc without assigning a bjc alignment (without MSU).

[PeregrineV]

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

How can those reads have any validity without a read on bjc?

Because they aren't about him.
The issue I had with ThAd's post was that he shielded himself from complaints that he was taking the bait by making a joke about it.

(Scum bait or town bait?)

The issue I had with Doc's post was the comment about this deserves a vote later. It's him opening up the door to get off the Talah wagon.

(To vote scum bjc to bus or vote town bjc to mislynch?)

The issue I had with Damon Gant's post was that he was making out of game excuses. I also didn't like that he called the post peculiar (as opposed to scummy).

(so is he distancing from scum-bjc or fencesitting on town-bjc?)

I don't feel you can adequately assign alignments to reactions-to-bjc without assigning a bjc alignment (without MSU).

It's like you just demonstrated how I don't need to have a read on bjc, since you gave possibilities for each of those things regardless of what alignment bjc is.

So your possibilities from the reactions to bjc are
ThAd could or could not be scum.
Doc could or could not be scum.
Damon could or could not be scum.

Does that sum them up?

[PeregrineV]

How do you get from giving me examples of things scum could be doing based on bjc being either town or scum to asking me about whether ThAd, doc or damon is scum or not scum?

Because how scum interacts with scum is different than how scum interacts with town. You are trying to contend that all are scum merely because they interacted?

[PeregrineV]

Your thought progression here makes no sense to me at all.

I agree. How you find scum interactions between two players enough to call one scum but not call the other town or scum is beyond me.

[PeregrineV]

I'm scum.

I have nothing so far considering I made one comment right before I left for home, just got home when I made the other comment while skimming the game.

So yeah... I have no "take" on this game so far at all, lol. Except for the usual people that are too uptight.

dodging here as well

OK!!

We look forward to your posts!!!

[PeregrineV]

Pere

-- Neighborhood Q/T joke RVS vote with no other comment even though some genuine conflict has begun. Votes low hanging fruit in BJC but does point out that BJC skimming 30 posts sounds faked. Makes a comment about voting BB_replace_scum; obviously faulty analysis on its face but it DID force some people to bring BB meta up AND it created an easy target for those who are so desirous. I like the genuine scum hunting but dislike the target; the benefit of the doubt here lies in Pere returning to this thread for more genuine content. Conditional null to town

I don't have time to crack all of these, but let's hit a few.

Why was bjc "low hanging fruit"?

Why was BB_replace_scum "faulty analysis"? There was absolutely no analysis involved, it was a bald statement that attracted far more attention than it should have.

I currently have only one target, but he is so busy towning up the thread that I'll probably just shoot him myself tonight.

All content to date has been genuine. Link to any that you feel has not been, and we'll talk.

[PeregrineV]

BJC

-- Claims scum. Regardless of opinions regarding this post, it DID help to get the game rolling and its impact can STILL be felt in this game. He seems to overjustify his behavior with a timeline of his actions and makes a strange comment about "the usual people are too uptight" which I still don't understand. Votes Doc after skimming which also appears as over-justification of his behavior along with more timeline regarding content. Then, similar to Talah, something clicks and his posts take on a better character. He starts with cog-dis in Thad's joke criteria being OK for Pere but not OK for himself. He queries Doc on how his post can even be termed a gambit as nobody could possibly take it seriously; I found this to be quite impressive logic. He accurately points out Doc's fencesitting his wagon and then tells me I am talkative because he has read my game on site; that really did impress me. I like how he fully accepts Aptil's lynchbait assertion with a certain free flowing joy that is tough to fake. He actually did skim 30 posts. I like him calling DG out for his vote of himself and can only agree with his Luca appraisal as finger pointing. Man I wish this guy was around more but what I have seen can only be

town

I'm scum.

Yeah there is nothing town about a joke early in the game. Sheesh.

I have nothing so far considering I made one comment right before I left for home, just got home when I made the other comment while skimming the game.

So yeah... I have no "take" on this game so far at all, lol. Except for the usual people that are too uptight.

vote: Doc

I'll be back tomorrow to offer actual opinions, and this vote is based on a skim of the thread.

Post 24
So my question here is why the above fake-claim/joke is okay while mine isn't?

Post 25
Horrible. First off, since when was this a gambit?
Second, why is something like that posted in RVS even taken seriously?
Lastly, I like that you say this deserves a vote yet stick with who you're voting at the time. Doesn't make a lot of sense for someone that just scolded me for claiming scum in my opening post.

Post 32
Are you the talkative type? After reading the newbie game you were a part of with BB and molla, I'm thinking yes.

Post 36
Forever and always <3

Post 39
Yeah, well that's like, your opinion, man.

What's there to skim? All thirty posts I guess. Self-voting is town?

Post 44
I find your breakdown of my post fascinating.

Bad vote.

Post 48
You have to question why people needlessly ponder why bjc posted it in the first place, unless you're scum pointing fingers this early for something so silly to get an early wagon on someone, I guess.

So my question here is why the above fake-claim/joke is okay while mine isn't?

I didn't claim an anti-town role.

Both were fake, so I don't see the difference.

dodging here as well

Let me just say you make a lot of assumptions and then call him town. Perhaps a re-analysis is in order.

[PeregrineV]

PV, thoughts on Luca? (whose close to being replaced, yet manages to find time to post elsewhere today)

None, really. the three posts of his are not enough to get a read on.

[PeregrineV]

Pardon my ignorance but what is MSU?

Making Shit Up.

(like stupid acronyms)

[PeregrineV]

Damon is town.
talah is town
ThAd is town.
Yates is town.
Rogers is town.

Some others I want to give town reads(snip)

Yup. Not seeing the content I wanted from Pere.

You are free to agree with me about why my reads are wrong. In fact, I encourage it.

[PeregrineV]

I never said anything about scum buddying regarding Pere/Admiral. I lean town on both, Admiral more strongly than Pere right now.

I'm not buying the "fake vig". Nor the "town reaction". But I'll have to take a look back to see what exactly irked me about it.

I saw Zdenek's vote coming from halfway around the map.

My vote is still on Doc because I've got no reason to move it unless he answers my questions.

I am 100% conflicted on Mister. I see effort; I see questions; I see pushing the game forward by way of this, and a *lot* of posts. I was waiting to see what was going to happen with the questions he was asking and something about the way his reads are being formed is irritating me. I don't know - it may just be hangover from feeling ganked at gamestart.

And this, is a prod dodge until tomorrow. I have a headache.

Take medicine and post better. And feel better.


And post better.

[PeregrineV]

Pere throwing out as many town reads as he possibly can and retaining his focus on BJC's 1st post is not the quality I needed to see. He is downgraded to

null to scum

.

There is a sort of bizarre dynamic here because he only has two votes and both people are voting him for a scummy reason; there are still ways it can make sense though.

Meh, I consider both votes to be RVS based. We'll see how Yates responds and how Rach steps up before assuming anything about thier votes.

[PeregrineV]

How about I join Yates and adovcate your lynch until you stop trolling or leave the game at the end of a rope?

Why do you think I'm trolling? Because I disagree with you?

[PeregrineV]

I already offered a few thoughts Saturday, I believe. Did you not read them?

I did. I think I read them twice, and quoted them at least once.

I also asked this:

Why bjc?

He claimed scum with his first post. Maybe to distract from that very fact, maybe to assuage his guilt over the fact.
Maybe he's town and he's trying to catch scum. For everyone assuming he's town trying to catch scum, analyze the total sum of his followup to his scum claim. Then analyze the total sum of the rest of his play. Explain how it is town. Use charts, graphs, links, etc. Use his own words and yours. TIA.

Responses so far have been underwhelming, but I eagerly await your (further) input. Anything you can do to erase the scumvibe I have from your posting would be appreciated.

[PeregrineV]

RE: Pere

Why was BJC low hanging fruit

Because he made a post that was very easy to attack.

Yes. Ask the logical question, and then think through each answer.

Why was BB_replace_scum "faulty analysis"

Well I like how it brought people to attack you. Yes you are making a good point here. You were low hanging fruit too. I have Rach as scum for that (among other things). I am not liking Yates for it especially because he hasn't moved an inch while the "thread has exploded". Although again, a bizarre dynamic, but you haven't given him a reason to move either.

But their hasn't been analysis on it yet. I wanted to see who would react and how. But, both are players that reacted in a way that does advance my reads on them. If you get reads from their reactions, then I approve.

Very funny. At this point he is prod-dodge/lurking. Seeing his first post as null, I shall be judging him based on subsequent posts and/or lack thereof.

OK.

Throwing out a bunch of town reads with only one "scum suspect" is scumtastic. It is not genuine town play. This is a game with 19 other players and almost all of them have posted and a handful of them are scum (and probably not BJC imo).

On page 10? Your lucky I have any reads at all. And for me, "town" means I scumhunt them slightly less vigorously than my non-town reads.

[PeregrineV]

Sorry if I overreacted. Carry on.

No worries. Everyone has a different way of playing.

[PeregrineV]

Yeah, thanks, in order to do that I probably needed to not have a headache, and to actually read through rather than just read along. But noted, and I've just read (properly) up to page 10 this morning.

I strongly recommend Excedrin Extra Strength. Let me work through a deafening sinus infection.

[PeregrineV]

I have a question mark on townreading you mainly because you seem a bit more proactive (or maybe 'pushy') than I remember and also don't remember you having scumhunted using PoE before.

It's a function of free time, as in "how much do I have?" that affects my mafia playing. And PoE is not super realiable, but it's a good springboard to start day1.

[PeregrineV]

AngryPidgeon replaces Smudger and pisskop replaces Doc Holliday.

Page 13 (quoted for my reference).

[PeregrineV]

I didn't make the allegation - I don't have the burden of proof. That said, I think I've only played with BB 3 or 4 times and I'm pretty sure he's never replaced out [not that I can find, anyway]. Why this strikes me as particularly shitty is because you are basically accusing him of dishonorable play. You'd think he would have a reputation for it if it were actually true.

I've played games where he has replaced out. I don't know his alignment in those games, nor do I care. The object was for the replacement to come in already under suspicion/pressure (such as it was) and see how they reacted (if at all).
If I truly thought BBMolla replaced out as scum BECAUSE he was scum, I would keep that secret and bust him/his slot in every game.

But, good to see the passion.

[PeregrineV]

Someone claimed scum. Thoughts on that.

I gave my thoughts on that...

[@ThAd] I hate the fake scum claim as much as a self vote. I think you are overstating how scummy it is - since we were both in a game where Town did this - but it is annoying and frustrating and can be difficult to see past. Perfectly acceptable reason for an RVS vote. Not a great point to build a case on, though.

Why do you think it is a fake scum claim?
A self-vote is different.
If he had self-voted with the claim, then a little suspicious, but hahaha-not funny-moving on.
If he had not claimed but self-voted anyway, a little suspicious, but ok-what about the thread-moving on.

Since then, I watch the follow-up posting for signs of scum-claim followup or town posting, since any of that can alleviate the above crappy RVS.

I have, so far, found none of it. Point it out if you have.

[PeregrineV]

Nope. I contend that a bunch of people reacted poorly to a day one scum claim.

I don't want to fight about this, but what is a "good" (as opposed to poor) reaction to a day one scum claim?

[PeregrineV]

Bjc townread

I believe there is more credit to the townreads based on his first post than some people think. Actually consider it.

Scum generally want to avoid attention. This already makes his post quite undesirable for scum, and I think that someone fairly new (as bjc seems to be) would be especially hesitant to do something so potentially controversial. The other scum option is to attract attention, and use it to create early townreads on oneself (e.g. by claiming scum and then making it clear it was a reaction test and 'scumhunting' from it). However, the posts that follow his 'scumclaim' seem to suggest that he isn't trying to look good, but at the same time, the fact that he actually scumhunts from it leads me to conclude that he's genuinely scumhunting while not being showy about it as I feel scum would be.

I just want to point out here that he has succeeded in avoiding attention. He has one vote (mine) and 9000 people townreading him.

[PeregrineV]

Anyone else think "scum dayvig" here?

It has been a trend, but not really an issue unless the "dayvigged" person dies.

I put the Chemist response up to not knowing the dayvig mechanics, so technically it looks town. But that's a dumb reason, and the whole thing *could* be orchestrated.

So, my take on the ENTIRE DAYVIG scenario:

Creates a null-read on Zdenek (as in, it does not affect how I read him either way).
Creates a null-read on Chemist (as in, it does not affect how I read him either way).

[PeregrineV]

I cannot ignore this setup.

you HAVE TO BELIEVE scum would claim scum

I'm scum.

I believe, I believe!!

[PeregrineV]

Ok, so the issue with bjc claiming scum is that all the conversation about it has been pretty fucking pointless.

No the issue is he's bjc and we cant judge him on that alone.

82 is the only post of actual substance on bjc.

And its a towny post.

[post=Why bjc?]Why bjc?[/post]
He claimed scum with his first post. Maybe to distract from that very fact, maybe to assuage his guilt over the fact.
Maybe he's town and he's trying to catch scum.
For everyone assuming he's town trying to catch scum, analyze the total sum of his followup to his scum claim.
Then analyze the total sum of the rest of his play. Explain how it is town.
Use charts, graphs, links, etc. Use his own words and yours.
TIA.

[PeregrineV]

Welcome, and thank you to the replacers.

I dislike the fact that both of you used post-by-post to catch up, but I'll probably get over it.

Right now, AP is looking the townier of the two of you. Seems like you would compare notes in thread while catching up, but that didn't seem to happen until 450.

Quantity v quality

Everyone thinking lurkers should not be lynched, I want to point out that Yates has 6 posts, and town-bjc has 8. I will contend that Yates 6 posts have more content and scumhunting that town-bjc's 8 posts.

If some sort of activity divsion is going to be argued by anyone, then here's an exercise. Assume 5 scum.

Bottom 50%

DeasVail
bjc
SnowStorm
Yates
RachMarie
mastin2
projectmatt
aptil
Luca Blight
Nero Cain

Divide into town/scum/null. Why?

Posting

Mister Rogers
Zdenek
talah
PeregrineV
AngryPidgeon
BipolarChemist
ThAdmiral
pisskop
4nxi3ty
Damon_Gant

All of these players have been available and responding. If you have a scumread on them, give the post that states your case for why they are scum.

Go!

[PeregrineV]

also, for a player who says this:

Mastin's play continues to be very bleh. Giving garbage reads, and now trying to spoonfeed us what his meta is. That's not going to work - when I have time tonight I'll be looking at Mastin's meta for myself. It does need doing, because of the unorthodox playstyle - but I'm not going to be told by the player himself what his meta is, and essentially that his meta this game corresponds with his meta for town.

And then doesn't meta Luca.

My experience with Luca is as a lurker/very unhelpful player until later

and additionally there are better fish in the sea to eyeball.

Checked Luca's meta - Luca pretty much doesn't have a meta, with as far as I could see, only 1 finished game to speak of. None of Luca's posts from that one game read as scummy as the one post Luca has here. I reiterate - I'm happy with my vote.

Wow, it's like two people are reading the same thing and have entirely different opinions.

@Damon- Do you agree/disagree with the bolded Pisskop statement?

[PeregrineV]

Spoiler: Mister Rogers activity response

If some sort of activity divsion is going to be argued by anyone, then here's an exercise. Assume 5 scum.

Bottom 50%

DeasVail

-- I contend that as Yates, DV has the content and is posting. Town. Well thought out & transparent reads. Meh. So many lurkers Aptil is scummy and I'm feeling his pain on hesitating with Thad...

bjc

-- prod dodging lurker scum that got off to a good start. Null-scum.

SnowStorm

-- Well thought out reads; reservations on limited scope & lack of posting. With PK on this, not a good D1 lynch but needs to man up & post full scope or there is going to be trouble. Leaning town with above stated reservations.

Yates

-- Give the man some room he's working here. Null awaiting results.

RachMarie

-- scum IOA, bad vote Pere and dangit if she isn't lurking up a storm. Willing to hold the townread questioning as posturing.

mastin2

-- scum very bad entry reads, bad vote switch backpedal. So sad r/l tho.

projectmatt

-- Town off to a good start but not voting not as good as Snow but benefit of the doubt as with Snow.

aptil

-- scummy prod dodging no voting finger pointing scum

Luca Blight

-- scummy active lurking fencesitting posturing bandwagoning naked voting scum

Nero Cain

-- meh who knows triple lurking (V/LA?) null??

Divide into town/scum/null. Why?

Posting

Mister Rogers

-- Someone give this man a hand up not a hand out, he's confused.

Zdenek

-- rational, scum hunting as with Talah, need to know reads.

talah

-- mostly commentary, mostly commentary on self, focusing on townreads, mentions multiball alot, advised me to vote a lurker, not adding up to town

PeregrineV

-- astonishingly good entrance vote, promises good read content, doesn't belong in the "active posting category" needs to deliver null to town for that entrance and depth of promise -- wait a minute he is still pushing BJC WTH!? Dewd get real? Need to see real or willing to wagon.

AngryPidgeon

-- clarity of catchup (yummy with ketchup?), seems helpful, seems dangerous if scum, prob town, watching reads and actions carefully

BipolarChemist

-- genuine sounding posting, genuine looking reaction to a vig that he appeared to believe, lurking the living crap out of this game just as gleefully, far better targets but unlike Thad I truly am an unwavering sucker for THIS fake dayvig.

ThAdmiral

-- Found it safe to vote for BJC with frustration? Probably genuine because of WK accusation of ZD? Cog-dis over ZD-Chem starting off certain but then being certain its all gut; is this an experienced player re-thinking how people will be viewing him? Don't think he has been posting much? No great scum hunting effort. Something is wrong with this picture somehow. null-scum.

pisskop

-- transparent catchup (not yummy with ketchup ). Def willing to follow along eclipses Doc bad start. Town.

4nxi3ty

-- very low contribution levels. Caught Luca active lurking. Wishy washy with voting. Left off voting DG (popular on, not popular off?) not sure if genuine could be low profile scum. Too cautious. prob scum.

Damon_Gant

-- bad start. rusty. the benefit of the doubt train is hitting its final stop. Needs to post alot. Now. null scum.

All of these players have been available and responding. If you have a scumread on them, give the post that states your case for why they are scum.

Go!

Dang anything to clear my head right now.

Let me stare at this post for awhile and cast a vote.

they are sorted in highest posting to lowest posting within in each group.

I'll respond later, but you think talah, 4nxiety and ThAd are the active posting scum, and Luca, aptil, Mastin, are the low posting scum?

[PeregrineV]

Too tired must sleep.

The one thing that is burning in my mind is:

Pere should not be allowed to sideline, posting helpful read guidelines & screaming about BJC. This without actual scum hunting is scummy.

PEDIT: @ZD -- I want to puke.

Am I on the sideline? I think I've been pretty clear. And you are just as clearly agreeing with me while chastising me about it.

[PeregrineV]

Hes engaging in things that are interesting to him (imo)

I do sort of do that, but if I engage in things that don't interest me, then it's probably fake. Maybe a judgment thing that comes with experience.

[PeregrineV]

Fair enough. I kinda like it, actually. What do you think about pisskop's replace in?

First read was kind of glad, although I didn't clikcback everything.

But then I looked more closely, and a lot of extraneous crap was thrown in where it probably didn't need to be. I've both seen and used post-by-post posting as scum and as town, so now I tend to look for a more conclusive summary or salient points raised in the PBP. I didn't really see that with Pisskop. I did see it more with Angry.

Right now I have him as a scum lean, and like some of the votes he has so far.

[PeregrineV]

Yeah I think next time I'm scum I'm going to claim scum at the start of the game and then just ride the townread wave all the way to victory.

Same here. And it makes my laugh and cry at the same time.

[PeregrineV]

I think the PK issue needs addressing though.

Pisskop? Did I miss something specific?
Do you think aptil votes are just as useless/bad as luca votes? I mean I guess aptil has slightly more content, but I see a slew of people voting both of these players who, imo, are lurking and nullville.

Ya I mean holy crap unless we decide we are going to wagon these prod dodgers to lynch unless they contribute. Odds are there is scum in that lurker list (if you count ALL of the lurkers) but its really a crap shoot.

But its not like the wagon will be helpful because its on a lurker and our D2 will lack a beneficial wagon to analyze.

Aptil is not any better than Luca.

We should be able to do better than a crap shoot and I bet we have better odds in the lurker voters.

I feel like Larry David here.

"Can't vote the LURKERS, oh no, don't vote the LURKERS, the LURKERS are SACRED, no voting the LURKERS"

That's just horseshit. How do you propose that lurkers *ever* get read, then? Cover our ears with our hands, look elsewhere, and hope they work it out between themselves in a few game days?

No - you wagon lurkers and if they refuse to provide content and opinions you lynch the living shit out of them.

And you do it *early* so it doesn't become an emergency deadline lynch and so there's time to think clearly about what's occurring.

Will finish work and get to this today .

Sure you will. No pressure from us.

Apologies for my lack of activity thus far, I will commit a bit of time later to going through this thread and will post my reads then.

No worries mate. Take it easy, you've got a free ride into Day 2 if Rogers has anything to do with it.

Actually Luca's a much better vote than aptil. There's that scum-cerity where he's expressing that he's sorry he can't post (because making a scum post he's happy with is so draining and unsatisfying). I've known the feeling.

VOTE: Luca

Why not Luca then? He's due for a prod if he doesn't post and I saw him logged in yesterday where he didn't bother posting. You should be asking pisskop (or potentially aptil if you want double the value given aptil is more likely scum) about bjc if you haven't played with him before.

Luca kind of randomly called out bjc as something to say in RVS so it's not so likely that bjc is scum if Luca is, but is says pretty much nothing about Luca if bjc's scum. If you're considering one or the other on a coinflip, Luca's your man.

(I'll just gloss over the fact you voted me for essentially advocating wagonning lurkers and seem to be as switchy as a diode in your opinions... )

Talah,
Can't help but notice your distinct lack of mentioning bjc at all in a post about lurkers. Nor about his attitude about the pressure being applied to him. Nor about the fact he finally posted.
Please help me to understand.
Sincerely,
~P

[PeregrineV]

Still working on getting in this game, but one thing I DO know about Nero is he is far more active as town and lurks a lot as scum, he has even admitted this to people.


I want to see more from you Nero.

Also feeling better about Pere.


VOTE: Nero

If BJC is lynched, then Nero will probably be vigged.

[PeregrineV]

I just noted you you did that. The reason I am voting for you is a lackluster approach to scum suspects & a bizarre cog-dis in your approach to the game. It just appears like you are trying to skate through by simply commenting combined with a "lynch me or lump it" attitude.

With that being said, I don't like how ZD is being so mysterious with his reads either. Pere's ISO reads: BJC is the entire scum team, you all are town and everyone else bleh.

Nah, but he is the most obvious, and it'll be informative to match townreads to his scumflip.

[/quote]I got a couple of town reads lurking like Snow & Matt too.[/quote] I'd put both at null-scum.

[/quote]Luca fencesat BJC, he didn't call him out. He town postured the issue which is like barfable but at least he's not saying "I'm lurking deliberately".[/quote] I'd vote Luca too.

[PeregrineV]

EBWOP:

I just noted you you did that. The reason I am voting for you is a lackluster approach to scum suspects & a bizarre cog-dis in your approach to the game. It just appears like you are trying to skate through by simply commenting combined with a "lynch me or lump it" attitude.

With that being said, I don't like how ZD is being so mysterious with his reads either. Pere's ISO reads: BJC is the entire scum team, you all are town and everyone else bleh.

Nah, but he is the most obvious, and it'll be informative to match townreads to his scumflip.

I got a couple of town reads lurking like Snow & Matt too.

I'd put both at null-scum.

Luca fencesat BJC, he didn't call him out. He town postured the issue which is like barfable but at least he's not saying "I'm lurking deliberately".

I'd vote Luca too.

[PeregrineV]

Oh, and I definitely agree with this post by talah.

-Shrug-, I prefer to vote actually scummy people and either investigate lurkers or have them replaced by someone who WILL contribute.

Scummy lurkers.

[PeregrineV]

Too tired must sleep.

The one thing that is burning in my mind is:

Pere should not be allowed to sideline, posting helpful read guidelines & screaming about BJC. This without actual scum hunting is scummy.

PEDIT: @ZD -- I want to puke.

Am I on the sideline? I think I've been pretty clear. And you are just as clearly agreeing with me while chastising me about it.

C'mon, He didn't start this game out lurking AND being defiant about it.

Most people have a wait and see attitude regarding your play but well that thought was literally burning in my mind.

I'd rather have you harassing me to think all game than just ignoring me.

And I've found that my earlier reads are better than my later ones.

Angry suggested Gears of War Mafia.

Subject: Gears of War Mafia - ( Game Over! )

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4798959

That seems kinda a reach for this early in a game... I don't even particularly like meta cases at any point in a game, but this early just feels somewhat off.
@Angelius: have both heads posted, or is this just Arc/just Nero so far?

So you don't like meta cases, which are mostly completely subjective anyway, and, in addition, bork's meta case feels "off"? Like, he shouldn't be able to produce it, or he produced it badly, or he's wrong, or you want him to think he's wrong?

Vote:

Knight of Cydonia

Super extra lynch vote:

Majiffy

Lost me post from here earlier.

In summary:

Town

1. Colonel Guile ( Uberninja/guille2015 hydra )
5. Angelious Nero ( Nero Cain/ArcAngel9 hydra )
6. PirateCat ( Pirate Mollie/Malakittens hydra )

8. Majiffy

9. AngryPidgeon
10. The Goat
15. Jal
17. mastin2

Not so much:

The Rest

My early read was on scum (he talked me down from it enough to unvote) and my townreads where extraordinarily (for me) high.

Later in the game I started seeing things not there, and half-pushing weak cases on scum so that they never got lynched.

So, I'm going to stick to an early scumread this time unless the scum himself can convince me otherwise.

[PeregrineV]

Hes engaging in things that are interesting to him (imo)

I do sort of do that, but if I engage in things that don't interest me, then it's probably fake. Maybe a judgment thing that comes with experience.

Someone in this game used the word "vapid" to describe your scumgame. I sort of agree, no offense to your scum game . I think you just wear your town-cards on your sleeve if that makes sense. Its hard to fake genuine interest. Mastin is kind of similar, but mastin spins things actively and mimics meta well as scum so you have to peel the onion to get to the stinky center first.

Talah,
Can't help but notice your distinct lack of mentioning bjc at all in a post about lurkers. Nor about his attitude about the pressure being applied to him. Nor about the fact he finally posted.
Please help me to understand.

That Talah is actually scumreading Luca over non-posting is worrisome. The distinction with which he assigns reads to lurkers is inscrutable and scummy.

Tell me some of the good info we'll get from his lynch.

No one ever said anything about info? BJC is actively refusing to post anything readable which is anti-town at best, scummy at worst.

I would vote Matt before most other lurkers. I skimmed his ISO at one point and it felt a little uninspired?

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried.

Awesome, and the Luca and aptil wagons are better alternatives or are you just defending people randomly?

They are all over now, but I had a period where 6 of my 7 games at the time I was scum. Vapid would have been an understatement to describe my overall play, including the one where I was town.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Lolz, I'll get on that

In other news I like being out of rvs within 3 live posts. While its sort of forced (what super early day 1 case stuff isn't) I still like rogers better for it.

I'm scum.

Lemme guess: "reaction testing"?

vote: bjc

There you go, now you can call me scum for "taking the bait".

I mean I kind of just stumbled onto this but its really kind of bizarre how this all went down and you both end up taking the exact same tact. Is there any explanation for this?

It's off-topic, but sure.

Spoiler:

My first big game here was Cold War mafia, which I replaced into. ThAd had already claimed, and in such a manner he was confirmed town to me. But, the feeling was not mututal, and he found me scummy at many points. This in turn make me suspect him. Turns out he was town, but town lost.
Next ThAd game (American Dad) he was scum and wanted to lynch me after my miller claim. But he pushed it well enough and I didn't think he was scum until he flipped.
There may have been more, but the next I recall was I was town nieghborizor and picked ThAd to get a better read on. The QT was inconclusive, but he buddied me hard in-thread and I thought "he finally gets I'm town!" until I was dead and scum won that game (Literal Video Mafia, I think).
Another game I picked up a Mason crumb that did not exist (Harry Potter mafia I think) with Thad and another player. SO I read him correctly, and that was what I was shooting for.
Last-most recent game was Mastin's Normal (Maniacal street). We both replaced into a neighborhood where he was a vig. I already had a townread on the slot from the previous players, so it was mostly watching ThAd watch me and how he played in-thread as town while uncertain about my alignment.
The RVS vote and post was a nod to that game.
Suffice to say, I always want to get him figured as quickly as possible, and feel like I have a better than 51% chance of reading him correctly.
And I think he's town this game.

[PeregrineV]

So,

I'm going to stick to an early scumread

this time unless the scum himself can convince me otherwise.

LOL. I mean I just don't get this. I mean seriously, I think right now you fit a scum profile better than he does.

I get that alot.

[PeregrineV]

1) Lets look at why ZD is voting me.
In post 496, Zdenek wrote:
[quotes post 433]
LOLZ
Unvote

Vote: pisskop

Poorly explained.
And then this:
In post 525, Zdenek wrote:
I figure Pisskop isn't talking about his Talah read because he's scum and he's hoping no one will notice his shifting read on the slot.

I'm not talking about my talah read because nobody is asking about it. And when I call it out he sits back and instead of elaboration let's you swoop in.
His reason for voting me is weak, and his support poor and wifomy. Yea Im going to discredit a weak vote for arbitrary reasons. If he wanted discussion on my reads he would ask about them.

His vote and accusation are his way of asking you about it maybe. And calling him out for NOT asking about it gets less mileage, since if you know that's the topic you can give your reasoning without prodding.

2) No, I'm pointing out that if he thought I was scum he would make a case or at least point them out. He hasn't done any of it, because he isn't hunting for scum. What makes his vote valid? There's no genuine effort in it.

Yeah, annoying as shit, huh?

3) rather than address me directly he takes a path of ignoring me. He still hasn't directly talked to me. I don't care that he used your post to vote me, I'm noting that he is making a deliberate attempt to avoid directly addressing me. Is this a style of his?

Another Luca situation. Check 2 town-Zdenek games and 2-scum Zdenek games and you might get have your answer.

[PeregrineV]

@Pere: Why are you tunneling BJC when Thad has moved on?

My bjc read is not based on ThAd, although I liked his reaction and found it town. And I liked his reaction to bjc's reaction- I also found it town.

[PeregrineV]

Talah/Mastin Meta Dispute: instinct: when it comes to meta, ime, there's usually at least one scum involved. Either from the two fighting over meta or the person that steps in and defends/attacks one of the others - haven't parsed through this, thought it should be noted anyway.

Curious as to how you are going to resolve the argument of meta between the two when, between the two, it's entirely subjective.

[PeregrineV]

@Pere: Your organizational skills. Are we going to pressure a lurker or are we going to lynch an active poster. At this point its becoming concerning because deadline is approaching and I don't think we can afford to waffle about. Scum I think would love a divided town to waste more time towards the deadline.

Activescum- posters are easier to catch as scum later. Pless-mod is on top of prods, etc., so lurkers will most likely be replaced. Scummy lurkers should be hung/vigged. Town lurkers should nut it up and get in here anyway.

I would rather lynch bjc, but would consider Luca, maybe Aptil, maybe Snow. Probably not 4nxiety or DV or BiPolar out of the low posters.

Out of the high posters, cases require more validity. Only ones I'd really consider at this point are talah and pisskop.

[PeregrineV]

I feel as though there's been a pretty clear misinterpretation on what I've said versus what you guys are trying to make it look like I'm saying.

Can lurkers be scum?

Absolutely.

If someone is lurking, does this mean they are scum?

No.

Currently, the way I see it - there is no logical justification to vote BJC other than for the idea of a liability lynch (which I disagree with strongly) or because he is lurking. Lynching someone solely on the basis of lurking is not a good idea. I am not, nor have I ever implied that because certain people (like Aptil!) are lurking, that they are town. This shouldn't be hard logic to follow, thank you.

And in terms of the bigger fish I mean that literally as I have indicated, I think that BJC is very likely to be town and there

are

better things to do than vote someone out of policy. As for the mafia? Dunno, I'm working on it.

bjc has responded. ISO him and base your townread on what he has said, if you could be so kind.

Also, look at the votes on him and why. Is anyone, in your opinion, voting him "solely for lurking"?

[PeregrineV]

And to be clear, "lynch all lurkers" is a horrible strategy, in my opinion. I think that in this case the lurker I'm voting has scumtold, which is me lynching somebody for scumtelling and not for lurking.

You think Aptil scumtold in 36?

Talk me through it like I'm 6.

[PeregrineV]

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried. You can say that BJC is scum for not contributing but of course that fails to account for your reads on literally 40% of the other players who are also not contributing. I might be off the mark here, but there's usually a player like BJC in every large normal game that's, well,

lynchbait

. However, this doesn't make them mafia.

is the basis for my townread along with me feeling that his tone and reaction to getting pushed on was a fairly natural way of reacting that I read as town. To me, voting BJC for the reasoning of saying "I'm scum" on page 1 is fairly ridiculous, and I have failed to see any other logical case towards BJC, which leads me to believe that he's either being lynched for liability purposes or because he is currently lurking. In Mr. Rodgers case, it appears to be both. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

OK, then go beyond "his reaction to people voting him for claiming scum".

I'll give you those additional posts.

I think I agree with this.
You're a terrible person.

List why you think this.

And you're a moron.

I also have no clue why you're calling me a terrible person.

I think I agree with this.

VOTE: bjc

@bjc

- Is voting for you the only way to extract content?

No... Not at all.

Are you voting me because you think I'm scummy or just to be stupid?

Well, I did claim my role before getting voted on so there's that.

And lol at that fucking question. I claimed scum and drew like three votes pretty quickly. So of course the content generated after that was in response to being voted on. Le'sigh.

And if I'm content with lurking?

[PeregrineV]

EBWOP:

Anyway, I don't like the wagon on BJC at all. No, claiming mafia is not objectively a towntell or anything but the way I see it, it looks like he got put as an easy target pretty early in the game and the amount of people jumping on something that is absolutely not a tell at all makes me worried. You can say that BJC is scum for not contributing but of course that fails to account for your reads on literally 40% of the other players who are also not contributing. I might be off the mark here, but there's usually a player like BJC in every large normal game that's, well,

lynchbait

. However, this doesn't make them mafia.

is the basis for my townread along with me feeling that his tone and reaction to getting pushed on was a fairly natural way of reacting that I read as town. To me, voting BJC for the reasoning of saying "I'm scum" on page 1 is fairly ridiculous, and I have failed to see any other logical case towards BJC, which leads me to believe that he's either being lynched for liability purposes or because he is currently lurking. In Mr. Rodgers case, it appears to be both. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

OK, then go beyond "his reaction to people voting him for claiming scum".

I'll give you those additional posts.

I think I agree with this.
You're a terrible person.

List why you think this.

And you're a moron.

I also have no clue why you're calling me a terrible person.

I think I agree with this.

VOTE: bjc

@bjc

- Is voting for you the only way to extract content?

No... Not at all.

Are you voting me because you think I'm scummy or just to be stupid?

Well, I did claim my role before getting voted on so there's that.

And lol at that fucking question. I claimed scum and drew like three votes pretty quickly. So of course the content generated after that was in response to being voted on. Le'sigh.

And if I'm content with lurking?

[PeregrineV]

@Matt: Yes you are wrong on your assertion as to why I am voting BJC. It is because he is deliberately lurking (as opposed to Aptil who is simply lurking) and because of the bizarre attention that he got for his simple "I'm scum" post.

I think moar people should be voting him.

1. How do you make the distinction between "intentionally" lurking and "simply" lurking? Those two seem like they are exactly the same thing. Bjc is just honest about his own apathy.

2. The second reason you listed is, to me, a very good reason why you should not be voting him and instead be focusing on the people who bizarrely attacked him.

So he shouldn't be lynched for failing to scumhunt?

[PeregrineV]

It's day 1. Deadline for the day is March 28th, 21:59 UTC. That's (expired on 2014-03-28 17:59:48).

Vote Count 1.12

pisskop [3] (bjc, Luca Blight, Zdenek)
Luca Blight [3] (Damon_Gant, 4nxi3ty, talah)
Yates [2] (projectmatt, pisskop)
bjc [2] (PeregrineV, Yates)
Damon_Gant [2] (SnowStorm, mastin2)
talah [2] (AngryPidgeon, Mister Rogers)
aptil [1] (DeasVail)
4nxi3ty [1] (ThAdmiral)
mastin2 [1] (BipolarChemist)
Nero Cain [1] (RachMarie)
Mister Rogers [1] (Nero Cain)

1 player is not voting

: {aptil}

With

20

players alive it takes

11

votes to lynch somebody or to go to night.

Nobody has recently been prodded.
BipolarChemist is V/LA until March 23rd.
mastin2 is V/LA until March 31st.

[PeregrineV]

Th only thing going for the pisskop wagon is Zdenek.
the only thing going for the Luca wagon is Gant

(I read the sig)

Someone help me understand the Yates or Gant wagon.

@bjc-replacement

- you are starting from a deep shithole as far as I'm concerned. It'd be nice if you come in here and squirt towniness from every orifice.

I almost want to vote Aptil for not voting, because even though it's almost vanity Wagon Central, at least there are votes.

The talah wagon intrigues me.

@talah

- Can you explain why I don't have a town read on you yet?

@Mister Rogers

- I think I get that you're rusty or out of vogue or whatever, but you do seem to be saying something then doing the opposite and calling people out for things you are also doing. And it seems to be you trying to "adapt" to current meta.
Cut it out. It was amusing the first time, but it's going to earn you rope, because it's starting to be scummy.
Play however you play. If your wrong and town, you'll get over it. If we don't like it, tough on us.
If you are playing at the 2nd level, carry on.

@Nero

- If Mister Rogers is going to be your tunnel target this game, that's fine. But I want 50% of you posts to be screaming for Roger's lynch, and the other 60% to be finding scum. For this, please pretend Rogers is SK, so no Rogers relationship cases.

This is my start for the day. Let's get moving people, we only have 168 hours to save the Earth!!

[PeregrineV]

Ya, thats pretty bad. People voting on a lone wagon should consider changing that.

You can be my Day 1 Mason buddy, AP.

Day 1 Mason QT

I think Talah's posting the last few pages has improved, but only because I didn't look to closely at it. Why am I not getting the town feeling I want from her stuff?

[PeregrineV]

Ya, thats pretty bad. People voting on a lone wagon should consider changing that.

no. I'm going to push on Rogers since I believe he'd be an excellent lynch however he's actually posting so I could see folks not wanting to get rid of that yet so either him or Luca.

why not Aptil?

Vote: Aptil

[PeregrineV]

See, this is what happens when I get distracted.

Vote: Mastin

I want her to come in pumped up and start coherently scumhunting. A big juicy wagon would accomplish that, I think.

[PeregrineV]

he's meh and doesn't excite me at all.

I think Luca could easily lurk it out as scum. Whats so scummy about Ap and what is your read on

Bert's alt

Mr. Rodgers?

I don't think AP's scummy. He's been posting my thoughts before I needed to at least 3 times already this game.

I have MisterRogers as town, mostly for his paranoia and enthusiasm. He needs to find some focus, but I think we have the players that can help him with that.

[PeregrineV]

I think Luca could easily lurk it out as scum.

Yeah, there was more to his posts in my mind than in reality. We can lynch him after Mastin town-wows me.

[PeregrineV]

Th only thing going for the pisskop wagon is Zdenek.
the only thing going for the Luca wagon is Gant (I read the sig)

Someone help me understand the Yates or Gant wagon.

Day 1 Mason QT

I think Talah's posting the last few pages has improved, but only because I didn't look to closely at it. Why am I not getting the town feeling I want from her stuff?

Pisskop is sketchy but the wagon on him is pretty meh. I'd rather not vote there today, but could as a compromise. I don't get why people think Luca is scummy (except Talah is just pushing a mislynch on him in all likelihood, so there is that). I don't really get the Yates wagon either, pretty uninterested in voting that. Gant seems townish enough and the votes on him are super stale. Not sure what to make of that. Would you compromise lynch ThAdmiral?

Day 1 Mason QT

I think Talah's posting the last few pages has improved, but only because I didn't look to closely at it. Why am I not getting the town feeling I want from her stuff?

Pisskop is sketchy but the wagon on him is pretty meh. I'd rather not vote there today, but could as a compromise. I don't get why people think Luca is scummy (except Talah is just pushing a mislynch on him in all likelihood, so there is that). I don't really get the Yates wagon either, pretty uninterested in voting that. Gant seems townish enough and the votes on him are super stale. Not sure what to make of that. Would you compromise lynch ThAdmiral?

Check Luca's ISO. Apologizing prod-dodging and a defense of bjc. And talah could be bussing for towncred. Yates wagon is non-starter. My ThAd townread is hard-gut (see 588), so, barring an unusual turn of events, probably not.

[PeregrineV]

I meant Aptil not Ap as in the angry bird.

So whats so scummy about Aptil?

Only real post of content is 595. And it's not delightfully good, either.

[PeregrineV]

I meant Aptil not Ap as in the angry bird.

So whats so scummy about Aptil?

Only real post of content is 595. And it's not delightfully good, either.

And that's scummier than Luca? I don't see how.

Not necessarily

scummier

, but scummy enough to lynch, yes.

[PeregrineV]

Snow iso? I can check that.

Spoiler:

Day 1 Mason QT

I think Talah's posting the last few pages has improved, but only because I didn't look to closely at it. Why am I not getting the town feeling I want from her stuff?

Pisskop is sketchy but the wagon on him is pretty meh. I'd rather not vote there today, but could as a compromise. I don't get why people think Luca is scummy (except Talah is just pushing a mislynch on him in all likelihood, so there is that). I don't really get the Yates wagon either, pretty uninterested in voting that. Gant seems townish enough and the votes on him are super stale. Not sure what to make of that. Would you compromise lynch ThAdmiral?

Check Luca's ISO. Apologizing prod-dodging and a defense of bjc. And talah could be bussing for towncred. Yates wagon is non-starter. My ThAd townread is hard-gut (see 588), so, barring an unusual turn of events, probably not.

I've seen the ISO, I think its just null? I don't see apologizing for inactivity as scummy (DGB mislynches people for that frequently). Post 48

does

read a little weird, but I don't see why everyone thinks Luca is scumscumscum for posting a waffle on P2. If I were to vote Luca, it would be purely policy/compromise at this point. Would rather Bipolar, Thad (these probably aren't happening today) or Talah (also probably not happening). Pisskop lynch is better than most, I might prefer aptil to Luca?

Re:Luca-town guilt should necessitate a replace out, since he's effectively hindering a scumhunting townie but taking up the slot. Bipolar- nah. Thoughts on Talah bussing Luca? Pisskop, aptil, ThAd- not today

[PeregrineV]

Snow reads as town based on postings so far. I disagree with his bjc opinion, but like his posting.

[PeregrineV]

Also Snork's entry post looks ridiculously town.

I'll admit I'm not fully caught up yet, but I have to disagree so strongly with this statement that it's given me violent diarrhea.

Maybe there will be toilet paper soon.

[PeregrineV]

@talah

- Can you explain why I don't have a town read on you yet?

@Pere - I don't know why you're scumreading me and I'm having trouble caring. But you *really* think I'm *bussing* Luca?

OKAY

Rogers, I have - what - half a dozen? Eight? - completed games under my belt including a couple I replaced out of. Where you're getting the idea that I'm some kind of superscum or supertown I have no idea. Historically I've been able to town pretty hard by screaming and raging, but I really don't like that aspect of myself. So yeah, I have some *personal* cog-dis, but unless it's related to me gaining some kind of scum-benefit - what's the purpose of even pointing it out?

+1020
+1047

@talah-

You are in luck. Rogers has pinpointed the precise reason. And he cares. And still, yes I do.

Vote: talah

Also, the snork question was a legitimate question, and he had more patience than I would have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kl8ajhu_e5Y

[PeregrineV]

Also Snork's entry post looks ridiculously town.

I'll admit I'm not fully caught up yet, but I have to disagree so strongly with this statement that it's given me violent diarrhea.

Maybe there will be toilet paper soon.

@snork-

Thank you. Like Pepto and a bidet all rolled into one.

[PeregrineV]

Re: projectmatt

My most recent game memory was Cyclic Experiment which was tiger-eaten in the Tiger Attack, but I think he was scum?

Anyways, some choice threads.
Town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Town: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I don't have the same townread some of you have (snork-Rogers), but I don;t have a scumread either.

[PeregrineV]

Mastin still scum.

[PeregrineV]

I'll be catching up today; let me know if there's anything in particular you want me to address.

Case on talah
Nero
DV

You're in a pretty sweet spot, imo, so have at it.

[PeregrineV]

Keep clutching those straws, mate!

Nice contribution there. Tell me why you're not scum. Tell me who is and why, with more concrete reasoning than "[ever] so slightly dodgy" opening posts. Ideally quote or link to incriminating posts and give decent reasons.

I am town because I recieved a role PM telling me so. When I find out who is scum, you will be the first to know

Not even a survival vote on the opposing wagon huh? I'll have to go check your ISO, but you think talah is more town than you?

[PeregrineV]

Also need to check this group DeasVail, RachMarie, Yates, Zdenek who took the Luca Blight wagon into the lead away form the talah wagon.

DV was previously voting pisskop.
Rach was previously not voting
Yates was previously voting pisskop.
Zdenek was previously voting pisskop.



Time to look at ISOs re:Talah.

[PeregrineV]

Quick drop in- so a quick note to all.

Vote: Talah

[PeregrineV]

@Talah- Yes to all.

I did mention it (768), and I asked you about it (768). If you wanted to know more specifically about how I arrived at my feeling/question, I'd suspect you would ask.
Instead you 795.

And yes, I think your bussing. The sum total of your scumhunting pre-Rogers is "Luca is scum?"
Why Luca over all of the other lurkers?
Hmmmmmm.
His lurking is scummier?
Hmmmmmm.
His avatar displeases you?
Hmmmmmm.
He's probably scum and talah is bussing so she earns towncred for his scumflip because she sure as hell ain't getting any for appearing to scumhunt.
BINGO!!

And I've lost patience before. But not as much lately, since I'm more experienced with how each person plays. if Fire Emblem was the babymaking game, then we were pretty far ahead so it didn't bug me.

And i'm not losing patience now. Sad that Rogers left, glad Snork is still here, and sad you got a scum role.

[PeregrineV]

#Yates- I saw you say something, but I'll be back later.

[PeregrineV]

I want to know if other people see it or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there

Are you suggesting that he defends and/or ignores Talah throughout his ISO?

If so, why aren't you equally concerned about Pere's chainsaw post?

I'm not going to defend Nero - since he is more than capable of defending himself - but I can tell you why *I* switched to Luca. Pere calling out people for consolidating at the end of the day is... not great. Pere pretending like Luca's posts since coming out of hiding haven't read as scum is... even less great. Given the choice between talah and Luca? I'm lynching Luca every day and twice on Sundays.

@Pere - and what do you think of the people that switched to the Talah wagon recently? SnowStorm, Aptil, yourself - you've all voted Talah since page 48. In fact - YOU are the one that made talah a leading wagon based on no new information, aren't you? I say this because post 1178 is your talah vote and it appears to be meta based. Are you trying to say that talah's meta - which was brought up EARLY btw - was suddenly strong/convincing enough to get you to abandon your case on Mastin? See how this works? Equally effective for either wagon.

I can go into more detail later, but yes, Rogers articulated a lot more clearly, but that was the exact reason. And giving up a Mastin wagon that no one believes is not hard. We can always lynch him tomorrow.

And what happened once Talah was made the leading wagon?
Did Luca gain 4 votes in a row?
Yes.
And all I did was bring it up. Wait into I look into the reasons why.

[PeregrineV]

So if you think this and ThAd won't do it, why not put Luca at L-1? Don't you need a Luca flip anyway to prove this theory?

There is time to analyze each wagon.

And I think that if talah is scum, and Luca is scum, that the scumteam would rather save talah than Luca.

Do you agree or disagree with this statement, and why?

[PeregrineV]

At least one on each [Luca,talah} wagon should be scum.

Going to have to disagree with this.

If talah is town, then why are scum so hot to lynch Luca instead?

[PeregrineV]

Keep clutching those straws, mate!

Nice contribution there. Tell me why you're not scum. Tell me who is and why, with more concrete reasoning than "[ever] so slightly dodgy" opening posts. Ideally quote or link to incriminating posts and give decent reasons.

I am town because I recieved a role PM telling me so. When I find out who is scum, you will be the first to know

Not even a survival vote on the opposing wagon huh? I'll have to go check your ISO, but you think talah is more town than you?

If me and Talah were a scumteam I would have tried to blend into the town a lot more, so there would never have been a me v Talah situation in the first place. Personally I'm not certain Talah is scum, but I think there is a decent chance of it and it wouldn't overly surprise me if he flipped scum. As my Bipolar wagon has no legs I might as well

Unvote

Vote: Talah

This isn't an attempt to save myself, it's just that we're both claiming VT, and while I know I'm a VT I can't be sure of him, but either way it will make for an informative lynch I'm sure, without risking lynching a PR!

[PeregrineV]

Suspicions aside, the biggest problem I have with the wagons is the fact that most of the people on the Luca wagon I do not have town reads on, or the town reads are extremely weak; whereas on the Talah wagon, when it was larger, had strong town reads on it.

Missed this the first time, but, yes, exactly.

[PeregrineV]

What makes you think this is in anyway relevant to Luca's alignment?

Absolutely nothing. Of the two leading wagons I felt like talah was townier or at least more useful. So really I was just pressuring for this...

I am also a VT

I don't know how convincing it is given all the Town cred given to Chemist when he claimed VT but at least we have a claim out of a distracting slot.

And giving up a

pisskop

wagon that no one believes is not hard.

Edited for my thoughts. ^^^

I was actually assuming your talah vote was also a pressure vote so I didn't understand why you were staying on talah when you had the opportunity to put Luca at L-1.

And I think that if talah is scum, and Luca is scum, that the scumteam would rather save talah than Luca.

I'm assuming you are basing this off the wagon momentum? Possible. But that would only be if both were scum. If this is the case, your "chainsaw" post makes sense for looking for the busser.

pisskop wagon was 3. Mastin was me. And the leaving pisskop was less important (maybe interesting later) than the quick migrations to Luca, reducing the chances of a talah lynch.

If talah is town, then why are scum so hot to lynch Luca instead?

If Luca is town and talah is scum, his wagon makes more sense. In which case, there doesn't have to be bussing involved.

[PeregrineV]

Just a quick note to say out of time today. Maybe tonight, probably tomorrow.

[PeregrineV]

Back, and apparently 0 for 2 (Sorry Talah)

[PeregrineV]

Back later, so no need to poke me.

[PeregrineV]

AngryPigeon.



You


are fucking infuriating.

Was going to wait until the end to comment, but this cracked me up.

[PeregrineV]

I guess it depends on the mod Nero. I usually see in multiball two different kinds of death like shooting and stabbing or something of that nature.

You see that a lot more in themes. Generally Normals shouldn't distinguish kills (although sometimes mafia/SK kills can be different)

[PeregrineV]

OK, out of three replacements
Egg for BiPolar
Penguin for MisterRogers
Way It Ends for pisskop

I remember Egg's entrance and find it the most town. It comes in and scumhunts. Expecting more...*hint hint*

and maybe I misread, but don't recall the Penguin or WayItEnds entrance. Probably just misread. Will go find it.

Meanwhile,

vote: 4nxi3ty

[PeregrineV]

How did Wayitends enter the game and not given opinions on anything and also not be held accountable for doing so?

[PeregrineV]

Yo Penguin, your entry was a little less bad, but your lack of Yates followup/followthrough bothers me.

Let's see follow-up on 1662.

[PeregrineV]

sorta waiting for mastin's response and dv to start playing again.

vote: 4nxi3ty

hmm? talk to me. You've seen my scumgame, so what's up?

Yeah, but you also pulled one over on me when I thought you were town, so kind of going by your posts more than meta at this point.

But, let's test you.

Go iso Pisskop.

Tell me what you see.

[PeregrineV]

Ya, but he was calling RM town for that reason before Thad got involved at all. I can understand thinking that a scummy player making a scummy push on an easy target makes them more town, but "Bad case on someone --> they are town" baffles me.

But I have less than zero interest in arguing Nero's townread on RM with him right now since I ultimately think both are town.

I've been sort of all over the place Today, so lets monologue about people in the spirit of regrouping:

penguin_alien - I dislike her posts about mastin. She seems somewhat undecided on mastin and shows no real interest in talking to her to resolve that. I'd expect her to be interested in mastin swooping in to add to her snowstorm wagon since she is apparently loosely suspicious of mastin when questioned about her. Reads more like posturing than actually trying to determine mastin's alignment, meh. Still Rogers posts feel unlikely to be from scum? Meh.

Snork - Town. Already largely discussed.

TheWayItEnds - I liked the original posts with Nero, felt like he wasn't nervous. Later contributions have fallen off and his RM votepark is pretty lame and easy. Sketchiest vote on the RM wagon just to take it off, post some bullshit about Yates who voted him, and go back to lurking? Scummy.

Egg - Egg has done fuck-all so far, but replaced BipolarChemist so Scummy.

Nero Cain - Pretty sure he's town. Reads like HPATPL/GoW Nero, aggressive, pointed.

aptil - Gets a pass for Vig claim. Is town barring reason to suspect SK/multiball.

Yates - I like his TWIE vote and that TWIE isn't gaining any traction makes TWIE less likely to be town tbh. Mindset and frustration reads town to me. His follow up on PA looks town-motivated. Town.

projectmatt - Who? Mostly a non-presence. Not doing anything that looks like scum hunting. Throws some townreads around and lurks. Meh leaning toward hm.

PeregrineV - Has basically done nothing Today. Still think hes probtown from Yestreday's posts, would like to see him step it up though.

mastin2 - Lurking is generally not a mastin thing regardless of anything and this is getting a little ridiculous, I realize RL sucks, but I could reallllly use you to bounce reads off of if you are town in this game. 2004/5 feels like town stream of thought, but mastin can fake that sort of thing as scum so meh. Meh. Probably not scum if PA is.

SnowStorm - Shows up to respond to case on him and not much else recently. Writes off my pressure as bullshit and justifies to Anxiety that its easier to detect bullshit about him than other place. Defense is scummy and general lack of proactive play; very reactionary. Scummy.

Damon_Gant - Actually back to leaning town here on an ISO skim. Dont at all get what mastin is seeing here and she should back that up.

4nxi3ty - Suspicion on Snowstorm is town as fuck, since that is something townies tend to be paranoid about. Could be dropping fake tells as scum, but strongly doubt it. Reaction to pressure has felt genuine.

RachMarie - Lol.

ThAdmiral - Meh?

DeasVail - I'd lynch it.

I want to talk about some of these later, but heading out soon. Maybe 6 hours from now?

[PeregrineV]

Saturday post!

[PeregrineV]

But, let's test you.

Go iso Pisskop.

Tell me what you see.

I see towneffort throughout his posts.

And this comment hit the right notes:

-On 4nxi3ty
He's logical, and I've seen him before, but something about his posts unsettle me. Watching.

I'm not talking feelings. I'm talking content-wise.

[PeregrineV]

@Yates

- How about YOUR read on me?

[PeregrineV]

@Anx-

Use your feelings. Keep them, cherish them. Then go look at actual content. And let me know what you see.

[PeregrineV]

Cards on the table - You're one of three people I'm not reading, so I'm looking for help. I want you to be Town but you haven't posted anything to make me think you are. I really need to see more out of your slot before I can make an alignment determination.

Fair enough.

[PeregrineV]

It's day 2. Deadline for the day is 13th April, 15:45. That's (expired on 2014-04-13 15:45:32).

Vote Count 2.7

SnowStorm [4 votes] (penguin_alien, Angry Pidgeon, mastin2, Damon_Gant)
ThAdmiral [3 votes] (SnowStorm, aptil, Nero Cain)
RachMarie [2 votes] (Snork, ThAdmiral)
TheWayItEnds [2 votes] (Yates, RachMarie)
4nxi3ty [2 votes] (PeregrineV, Egg)
AngryPidgeon [1 vote] (DeasVail)
mastin2 [1 vote] (4nxi3ty)

2 players are not voting

: {projectmatt, TheWayItEnds}

With

17

players alive it takes

9

votes to lynch somebody or to go to night.

Activity

mastin2 is V/LA until April 7th.
projecttmatt is V/LA until April 7th.
Yates is V/LA.

Not feeling Snow=scum. What are the two best reasons?

Want to vote Mastin, but don't like 4nxiety on there.....

[PeregrineV]

@Anx-

Use your feelings. Keep them, cherish them. Then go look at actual content. And let me know what you see.

posts 335, 338, 350, 410, 424, 437, 465, 476 all look like towneffort. And pisskop doesn't hesitate to attack people or speak his mind. I'm surprised people thought pisskop was scummy.

Want to vote Mastin, but don't like 4nxiety on there.....

this is an incredibly silly reason not to vote someone you want to vote

Unvote: Mastin

What bothered me most is the fact that pisskop entered the game and gave a read/reaction/interaction to just about every player.

There was one player whom he did not, except for a single compound sentence.

[PeregrineV]

K. Are we seriously back to 5 days left until deadline?

Nero, RM, Yates, Anxiety, PV, Snork, [aptil-slot], thadmiral are all pretty town.

Townblock, start suggesting good lynches and why.

I want TWIE, Matt, or Snow right now the most. Could maybe do mastin (not really a scumread, but decent compromise at this point), Egg (replaced Bipolar, doesnt feel like town-egg really).

I think I'd rather not lynch DV today actually. Someone throw something out.

Would prefer Mastin, maybe TheWayitEnds(torn on this slot), maybe anxiety but I think Snow is town, and Egg/BiPolar as town (but agree that now-Egg silence is bothersome). Matt would be a less preferable but currently acceptable.

[PeregrineV]

mastin are all kind of lurker lynches

I don't think I've ever recalled a Mastin lurker lynch.

Based on your Mastin experience, do you think this would result in a town or scum Mastin?

[PeregrineV]

how is your thumb doing BTW Yates?


Now back to the game.

No responses to my VCA?

It's mostly conjecture and your reads since talah and Luca both flipped town.

You might have better luck looking at the off-brands, such as they were.

Yates [1 vote] (pisskop)
Damon_Gant [1 vote] (mastin2)

[PeregrineV]

What bothered me most is the fact that pisskop entered the game and gave a read/reaction/interaction to just about every player.

There was one player whom he did not, except for a single compound sentence.

Does it also bother you that I have yet to give any sort of read on 4 players in this game?
(DV,DG,Egg,Aptil)

Is one of my 4 the one pisskop didnt give a read on? (I barely read pisskops posts)
Would it make a difference if it was?

DeasVail

So Gutread time:
Positive:
Devas

Positive:
Devas - actually I'd only put him a null+. His posts strike me as transparent, and although he could be scums, we can follow his thoughts well enough atm.

DamonGant

So Gutread time:
Negative:
Demongant

-On DemonG

Spoiler:

44 starts off his journey. With a omgus on bjc.
70 Not helping. so much snide and defense.

This wasn't addressed to me but

Fuck it. Everything that pours from Demon's fingers is scummy to me.
118
130 He ignores the whole point of the question to tangent on about the difference between bad logic and scum logic. Neither of which he applies (to anyone).

Nope. So much nope with his dancing about.

That's not scum logic - that's bad logic.

Bad logic is anti-town, therefore scum. Good logic is anti-town, therefore increased probability of being scum.

202 is a terrible Luca vote and a Doc gutfeel dressed in logic. Why would he need to dress it up? also, for a player who says this:

Mastin's play continues to be very bleh. Giving garbage reads, and now trying to spoonfeed us what his meta is. That's not going to work - when I have time tonight I'll be looking at Mastin's meta for myself. It does need doing, because of the unorthodox playstyle - but I'm not going to be told by the player himself what his meta is, and essentially that his meta this game corresponds with his meta for town.

And then doesn't meta Luca. My experience with Luca is as a lurker/very unhelpful player until later and additionally there are better fish in the sea to eyeball.

No, he's jiving us.

Egg formerly BiPolar

So Gutread time:
Positive:
Bipolar

Positive:

Bipolar - Mostly based on his consistent posting of one liners. The 'fake vig' had a little to do with it, and his disinterest in the game after reflects him finding it silly.

Aptil
Calls him Lynchbait by quoting a post of Aptil calling bjc lynchbait, but does expand on bjc

On bjc (and I guess the largely absent aptil):

Bjc already looks like he is going to be a lynch bait here .

This sums up both my feelings on Apt and my urge to ignore bjc's antics. He's uppity here, and I would group him with my scumreads if I had to choose atm.

When directly presented with Aptil question- defers it

But not aptil?

I'd give him time to finish his promised reads from 595. So far, just some general recap on fellow lurkers.
I don't think post 36 was as bad as some held it. It was a skimread

Here are those four players mentions by pisskop. Do you see a difference between his treatment of aptil and any other player? Because I do.

[PeregrineV]

Oh... who did Egg replace?

BiPolar chemist

[PeregrineV]

Vote: The Way It Ends

Much better then lynching ThAd.

Matt is more of a maybe. If you read his pre-VLA posts, he comes across as town. More recent posts are less good.

@SiX-

SOP- Read the thread and give us a fresh take. Soonish.

[PeregrineV]

PV why is it better than ThAd?

I was suspicious of pisskop but wanted him to be town, so was looking to TheWayItEnds to kind of swing that balance. When that didn't happen, and he starts getting pressure, the whole thread reading thing seemed way more evasive than it should have been. Answer the question. If you think it can be asked both ways, answer them both.

ThAd I'm just still reading as town. But, I may be biased so go skim his last 2 town and last 2 scum games and see which ThAd he look like to you.

[PeregrineV]

Do YOU see Thad's latest bout of frustration aimed specifically at Nero being from scum? That emotion is pretty hard to fake and I dont see why scum would do something so likely to draw attention, especially from Nero who is tentatively voting people who arent Thad. Its just town rage. Pretty sure.

No, Nero is town this game I believe, but that doesn't mean that Nero doesn't tunnel like a mofo. He always does. He's like a talkative Internet Stranger. And I can see where tunneling can be annoying, so his response to Nero reads as town.

[PeregrineV]

Reading this thread with 91 pages would kill me. I prefer you guys quoting something you want me to share my opinion of, ty ^^

ISO pisskop/TheWayItEnds
Read day2.
Come back and give reads.
Do it soonish.

[PeregrineV]

^ I never said Nero wasn't town? I think Nero is town too. And yes I agree that Thad's reaction to Nero makes complete sense from town and almost no sense from scum.

Just saying, ThAd/Nero shouldn't be lynched, and their side conversation has no bearing on current events.

Give Six some work- slogging through day1 seems cruel considering the eventual outcome.

[PeregrineV]

SCUM
-ThAd. Nuff said.
-Damon. I've pondered this read again. He's rusty and I feel like he has a natural scummy tone and I wanted to take that into consideration. Well, I have now. I hate his posts, his votes and his reads. Scum.
-AngryPidgeon. I like his style, he does appear somewhat natural in his interactions, but I absolutely hate his suspicion on me. The way it developed, the reasons he used, it was just horrible and lazy, it was the complete opposite of what I'd expect from someone who's been playing like he has. I also think he's too stubborn and over-confident in his reads and I don't think he has good reasons to be. He reads as scum who knows what he's doing, who's in conrtol.

TOWN
-Snork. His day 2 play has been disappointing but he's still one of my strongest town reads. Dude, move on from your Rach read, you're doing scum a favor by distracting yourself with it.
-Nero. I like his posts and his reads.
-SiX. Vig claim; Bad pushes on Aptil, weak town read on Aptil before claim. Highly doubt he's scum.
-4nxi3ty. Weaker town read. Due to what I've said previously, I think he's more likely to be town.
-penguin_alien. Strong town read on MR. I don't like her posts as much, probably because she went after me, but I don't think she's particularly scummy, so I'm sticking to my town read on the slot.
-DeasVail. Weak town read. I just like his posts in general and his talah defence on day 1, it read genuine.
-Rach. I just doubt she's scum.

The NULL pile:
-TheWayItEnds. Ugh, I should get a read on this slot.
-Egg. Errr... Not today.
-Yates. I'm really not sure about him.
-projectmatt. Idk, I don't really remember anything from him that made me lean one way or the other.
-PeregrineV. I hum, should probably get a read on this one too.
-mastin2. This one is a little confusing. I kinda liked her posts, but I'm not sure if I like her reads and votes.

I'm seeing you as weakly town from some of your posting, but I agree with zero of your scumreads.

3 of the people being discussed for lynch today are in your null pile. Perhaps using some of the 94 pages of posts to refine that null, or give an in-depth reason for the null.

[PeregrineV]

Do YOU see Thad's latest bout of frustration aimed specifically at Nero being from scum? That emotion is pretty hard to fake and I dont see why scum would do something so likely to draw attention, especially from Nero who is tentatively voting people who arent Thad. Its just town rage. Pretty sure.

Oh, wow. Such rage. Very town.

Snark instead of adding your opinion about something that wasn't directed at you nor about you?

Why? This is one of those posts I mentioned that I really don't like.

I didn't like the post, which concerned two scum reads of mine and I thought the message was obvious.

PA is acting like scum aren't capable of faking rage or frustration and that it is obviously town because he had no reason to do it as scum either. Whenever ThAd's concerned he just takes things at face value. His interpretations fit what I think are ThAd's intentions, but I don't think they fit PA's thought process. What I liked about PA was involved, he asked questions and interacted with people, to me his posts demonstrate a level of involvement thinking and experience that does not match some of his opinions. Sometimes, like in this case, he just seems to be dumbing down to achieve the reads he wants. In this post he's basically saying. "Look at ThAd's rage and emotion. Emotion is town. ThAd's town!" It's just so simplistic and the way it's written is manipulative. "Do YOU see how town that is? YOu don't wanna vote that!".

As for ThAd's rage itself. PA said he had no scum reason to do it, but what about a town reason? I don't see one. ThAd needed someone to vote for, the Rach wagon wasn't going anywhere and it would be bad to stay on it. So he blew up at Nero, out of nowhere.

You scummy fuck, nero. I don't believe I actually sided with you day one. Even today I didn't think you were scum until recently. I think it was wishful thinking. I didn't want to think you were scum. I let my personal opinion of you as a player cloud my judgement. But with every post it became clearer and clearer.

This just reads fake and overly dramatic, the whole post does. He's blowing something out of proportion to give himself a reason to vote Nero. The follow-up posts are even worse.

I'm not moving my vote. I'm not moving it if it kills me.

Because I'd rather be dead than exist in a game where people like you can act like you do and get away with it.

Nothing you say makes any sense. You are lying about fucking EVERYTHING.

And when I flip town anyone who is

paying attention

, anyone who has

any sense

, anyone who

uses any logic whatsoever

will know that you are scum and lynch your scummy ass.

Sadly for this game that probably means no one will vote you.

This is just bad. So overly dramatic and so manipulative. He's assuming an anti-town position by being stubborn and only wanting to contribute for one lynch, which means we'll have a harder time lynching anyone else, though that's not the worse. The worse is that appeal he makes by saying anyone that won't realize Nero is scum isn't paying attention, has no sense and doesn't use logic. - He's basically calling us all dumb because we can't see how town he is and how scum Nero is. I guess what he means is that we'd feel pretty dumb if we lynched a town him, but if we don't think he is town then I think the risk is worth taking.

So, now we have ThAd being stubbornly useless and people saying he's town because no scum would do that. BS.

If you think ThAd is scum, then you'll need to show it. 2296 is ThAd spelling out reasons why he's calling bullshit on Nero's read. Since you disputed none of it, I take it you agree with his take on it?
Hint: "I don't like his tone/emotion/font color" is not the same as examining his argument.

[PeregrineV]

I'm seeing you as weakly town from some of your posting, but I agree with zero of your scumreads.

3 of the people being discussed for lynch today are in your null pile. Perhaps using some of the 94 pages of posts to refine that null, or give an in-depth reason for the null.

Why don't we discuss the 3 people that are on my scum list instead? I'd much prefer lynching those than anyone I have a null read on.

SCUM
-ThAd. Nuff said.

His reaction was just bad and the only purpose it had was to discredit our votes on him based on something he "assumed" for no logical reason.

I voted you because at that moment I wasn't happy with either of the main wagons and Snork had expressed that he'd like your lynch too. So I decided to give it a shot.

(referencing 675) <---

^Here. Your approach makes no sense coming from town. You voted bjc for his scum claim, then you said it was a null tell, but you kept expressing frustration towards people town reading him. So if you were not voting him for the scum claim what were you voting him for? And if you really thought the scum claim was a null tell why did you only complain about the town reads and not the scum reads based on it?

In 1975, you disagreed with 1437.

These seem to be the bulk of what I bothered looking for. I guess to sum it up, I don't see the same things you are in ThAd's posting. Having different opinions about who is scum is not scummy if they can explain the thought processes to reach them. Both of ThAd's cases do that.

-Damon. I've pondered this read again. He's rusty and I feel like he has a natural scummy tone and I wanted to take that into consideration. Well, I have now. I hate his posts, his votes and his reads. Scum.

You'll understand if I find this reason very uncompelling.

-AngryPidgeon. I like his style, he does appear somewhat natural in his interactions, but I absolutely hate his suspicion on me. The way it developed, the reasons he used, it was just horrible and lazy, it was the complete opposite of what I'd expect from someone who's been playing like he has. I also think he's too stubborn and over-confident in his reads and I don't think he has good reasons to be. He reads as scum who knows what he's doing, who's in conrtol.

Maybe, perhaps pointing out specifcs- like posts that indicate scum motivation or come from a scum mindset. Otherwise, having played with and against AP over many games, I'm leaning town.

I've only ISO'ed pisskop and Way. Still null. I wouldn't wept tears for their lynch, but as I said, I'd much rather lynch one of my scum reads.

I don't really want to lynch any of my null reads today and I'm not going to provide any in-depth reasons for those reads because I don't really see a point for it, I mean, it's not like those reads have any depth.

See, nulls at this point are because
1. They have posts that seem town and that seem scum, and those posts move your reads in that direction. In which case, specifics help us understand YOU.
2. You're scum, and it's a hell of a lot easier to have nulls than to make up fake reads.
3. Some other good reason, which you can explain in detail, which helps us understand YOU.

There, we talked about your scumreads.
Since none of them are today's lynch, talk about Mastin, TheWayItEnds, and projectmatt.

[PeregrineV]

Wait Mastin and Projectmatt are still options?

Mastin has only recently posted anyhting townie, and with the size of his posts, a null read on him needs explanation. And I'd be willing to lynch Mastin if <conditions> happen.

Projectmatt should be ISOed. He is also a secondary lynch at this point.

If you can make a case why either is better than TheWayItEnds, I'm listening.

[PeregrineV]

Just to clarify, the reason I think Thad's rage is fake is 'cause well, I really don't think I've done anything worthy of such anger. All I've done is say the case on Rach is crap and then I've called Thad scum 'cause I think he's sheeping a very bad case and he's doing jack shit today. So in response he does jack shit and says something about me that he could have said a dozen pages ago. Time to lynch it guys.

The case is wrong but town push crap cases all the time.

What do you think of TheWayItEnds? And Matt and Mastin while your at it.

[PeregrineV]

already commented, go read skimming scum

I've found, when reading your posts, that having you point out specifics and/or translating has a much better chance of getting your point across than if I do it.

[PeregrineV]

Why wouldn't you leave your vote on me. I'd have more votes than twie if you did.

Oh because you're hedging your bets. Got it.

ummmm....in a bout of doubt/passion I wanted TWIE death 'cause I really don't think ISOing yourself is a townie thing to do and that slight hesitation.

so, here is where you have a TWIE read.
It's from responding to a semi-quote of ThAd's.

Yeah I can see you're voting someone else. Why? You're telling people to vote me. You've clearly "pegged" me as scum. Why wouldn't you leave your vote on me. I'd have more votes than twie if you did.

Oh because you're hedging your bets. Got it.

So, already I'm like wtf Nero? Selective quoting?

So, then, you are saying you would vote TWIE because you "don't think ISOing youself is a townie thing to do and that slight hesitation."

How could I have missed that among your huge ThAdscum post accompanied by a vote OFF TWIE onto ThAd?

But, thanks. I expect your vote in the next real day or two.

[PeregrineV]

So....what do you think of Thad ignoring the whole day phase?

He posted pretty soon after day started, and continued his day1 Aptil push based on his day1 case.

With Aptil's claim, he then voted Rach. I think he was then attacked for voting Rach, and defended the fact that his vote was good. He has about 31 posts today, which is probably more than me, so not sure why you think he's ignoring anything.

[PeregrineV]

lol @ PV trying to get me to vote TWIE.

What do you think of Thad avoiding the whole day phase, PV?

I don't see how he avoided day2 at all. Why do you think that?

[PeregrineV]

lol @ PV trying to get me to vote TWIE.

Crazy, right?

vote: TWIE

[PeregrineV]

If someone read Thad's day 2 ISO they'd think the only two things that happened today were the Aptil claim and Rach and well there's been a lot more than that going on.

Maybe. But a lot was Rach-centric and dealing with replacements. What do you think are today's highlights?

[PeregrineV]

Pv, You're right that both the Aptil claim and Rach stuff has been a big part of the day, recently though there's been a lot of Mastin talk, a lot of TWIE talk. More recently there's been a lot of EGG and pmatt convo. I can't, for the life of me, understand how you can think he's NOT ignoring the day phase when (sans Aptil's claim) his play and posts have been "Rach is scum/you guys have no case on me." rinse and repeat. I know he brought up the "but you tunneled on MR on day 1!" but A) he's not Nero and B) I did far more than tunnel on MR

Thads not really the kind of guy that strikes me as to have to prod for content.

So why shouldn't you be lynched when Thad flips scum?

If I'm still alive, then go for it.

As for the rest of the day, those are minor happenings, which not everyone is getting involved in anyway.

[PeregrineV]

Opening ThAd wall is A plus wall material. I wasn't liking ThAd day 1 near deadline but this wall is everything I wished it could be and more. ThAd looks waaaaay townier than I thought he was yesterday, considering that he was in my shortlist of lynch candidates at the start of the day. I don't know how I feel about the hard tunnel on RM (I realize how stupid this sounds coming from me, but w/e I'll get to that later). But so far I think he stays off my lynch today pile.

LOOK HOW FLUID THIS IS!

Why the fuck is this even on the table for lynching...

Calling ThAd town doesn't make TWIE town. Saying you like ThAd's posts "because they come from town" doesn't make people town.

I'm holding out on the PA lynch. It will become evident tomorrow.

[PeregrineV]

I would also like to know why I'm apparently the only person in the game who has a major problem with 2286.

Because your scum?

[PeregrineV]

You should have bothered to read more then. So you're saying that bad opinions that have a thought process behind them are not scummy? Thus can't come from scum? Thus you're saying scum don't think? You're not making any sense. ThAd had an opinion I didn't like, I found it scummy. He explained it, demonstrating his thought process, but just because there is one it doesn't mean I have to accept it or that I have to disregard it as a scum tell, after all, I think it's a thought process that fits scum more than it fits town.

OK, this is all true, you have every right to your opinion.
I, on the other hand, have the right to disagree with your opinion.

So, you find *something* a scumtell, I explained how I don't find it a scumtell, you go right ahead and continue considering it a scumtell, I will continue to accord your opinion/case the weight it is due.

[PeregrineV]

We didn't talk about my scum-reads, you commented on the brief explanations I wrote as a guide to my reads as if they were THE reasons for them and disregarded them completely. You're not dictating the lynch and I have already said I have no strong opinions on those three players or intention to lynch them today, so if you do want to talk with me, lets go back to talking about ThAd, AP and Damon.

Sure, talk all about them. Without succinct reasons based on facts and present in a logical way where I understand and agree, I'm pretty much not lynching any of those three today.

[PeregrineV]

I disagree, but I'd like it if you could point out a previous game where he showed those traits as scum.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=23219

[PeregrineV]

The first post that concerns me is 1977. I think it's really easy to see from Yates' post that he may not necessarily mean that every player second on a wagon is scum, but TWIE pretends that that is what Yates is saying (without even asking for clarification) and makes a huge deal out of it while discrediting Yates in the process. Also, in this post it's really unclear what TWIE actually thinks of Yates. The mocking tone of both the first line and 'GG town. Yates just broke this game wide open.' make it sound like he thinks Yates is town, but then there's the weird vote thing? I feel like the post as a whole shows that TWIE cares too much about the accusation in a way that is completely unrelated to his read of Yates. I believe this is scummy.

I was just looking back over his ISO for TWIE opinion on AP and I saw the whole weird Yates thing. Coming into the thread he was all over Yates for scumreading him, but never came back with a scumread on Yates. Now, his scumlist is anyone who DOES have a scumread on him.
If TWIE flips scum, Yates will be my next suspect.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, I agree that if anyone has a null red on Mastin they should say why. I can't see the kind of null where they just can't pull any info out of his posts. What I could see is someone wavering in their read.

I agree, as my own read on her is wavering. Her initial posting seemed like scum-Mastin to a T. Only the last few posts have given me any town feelings.

[PeregrineV]

PeregrineV has done a lot to further his town credentials since I last posted I think. Not sure why people are suspecting him. I have basically no understanding of the case on penguin_alien. Projectmatt I can understand more with his horribly non-commital posting, someone said something about "not making enemies", and that's pretty much what I think. However:

Unvote: SnowStorm
Vote: TheWayItEnds

This is the wagon I like. I think Peregrine did a lot to advance this case. I always felt uncomfortable with pisskop but I couldn't quite place why. With TWIE's play being scummy in my opinion, it has definitely cleared up my feeling about this slot.

What did Peregrine do to advance the case on Way? I'm not seeing it.

I guess specifically I liked #2315 about pisskop. It's a little confusing because I feel aptil's slot is town - but it just helped me place my worry on pisskop. I was already perfectly worried about TWIE, but feeling like both he and his predecessor were scummy was an important step in my mind. It was too much to say Peregrine advanced the TWIE case a lot, he just advanced my thinking on it a lot.

My initial hope/thought was masons, but that was destroyed by Aptil/SiX claim.

Aptil/SiX claim good until tomorrow, so now just curious as to Aptil's treatment. But, TWIE can't answer to that. He can answer to the odd Yates treatment though.

[PeregrineV]

I can buy 2 weak JOATs. Since I don't want to lynch Rach or SiX anyway, still happy with TWIE's being lynched.

@Rach- why did you select Nero to friendly neighborize?

[PeregrineV]

Does friendly neighborizer mean Nero is definitely town? I've never seen the "friendly" part.

It confirms to Nero that Rach is town.

Friendly Neighbor

[PeregrineV]

I have a LARGE history of playing Doc which is the closest to being a BG (though you don't die) and trying to make sure scum does not NK so I can protect. Actually my first game on site was playing Doc.


There was absolutely NO reason for him to claim that, unless he was trying to find the real JOAT. I knew crumbing is a mixed bag, but I took the gamble because I wanted to have it out there since I was being read as scummy by so many players, and I do have a tendency to be lynch bait.

Pere

Weak? Jailkeeper if used properly can avoid a kill, and a FN can confirm TWO townies to each other, even if they do not get to chat in a QT

That does not sound weak to me.

JK is ambiguous in it rasies the question: did you protect town or roleblock scum?

Friendly Neighbor confirms you only.

from wiki

Play Advice

Friendly Neighbor is nearly impossible to frame as a liar. If you are scum and receive a Friendly Neighbor greeting, you probably are not served by lying and saying you didn't get it.

Each of you is only 2-shot, which reduces your power. But, spreading the town powers out among several players prevents scum from taking out town power in 1-shot. So, in all, balanced.

You're town to me through play. If you die and flip scum, however, Nero will be the next lynch. I know this is obvious, but it should be said anyways.

[PeregrineV]

Yeah I think DV is a very likely candidate, however time is short and we need a lynch TODAY

VOTE: ThAd

Are you for/against a TWIE lynch?

[PeregrineV]

I won't be back on inside of 4 hours.

Vote: Mastin

[PeregrineV]

SiX...

AP has a gun because he's scum. My ability only detects players with the ability to kill with "was shot" flavor.

It does not detect cops. He's lying.

While your at it, double check with mod if 1-shot vigs who have used up all thier shots detect as still having the ability to kill, since they don't, anymore.

Also, the way you word this worries me. Are you paraphrasing or assuming?

[PeregrineV]

While your at it, double check with mod if 1-shot vigs who have used up all thier shots detect as still having the ability to kill, since they don't, anymore.

Just answered this, PV:

(at risk of treading thin ice with my role PM - specifies a player who has ever had a gun, so x-shot would not matter).

Also, the way you word this worries me. Are you paraphrasing or assuming?

Why does the wording worry you? Either you believe my claim or not.

Paraphrasing a role PM is an art form I am not talented at

The opening mod post says that their is either a mafia faction, or mafia & werewolf faction, and up to one SK.

If there are basically two mafias, you would hope they have different kill flavors, but the rules of normal games require non-flavored kill types, so all types would show up the same. The wording makes it sound like you may not be able to find a werewolf faction, should they exist.

However, that seems kind of dumb to make a half-cop. Right now, inclined to think a double kill N1 plus an SK.

So, it's not so much about believing your claim, but if we can derive any information from it.

[PeregrineV]

Opening ThAd wall is A plus wall material. I wasn't liking ThAd day 1 near deadline but this wall is everything I wished it could be and more. ThAd looks waaaaay townier than I thought he was yesterday, considering that he was in my shortlist of lynch candidates at the start of the day. I don't know how I feel about the hard tunnel on RM (I realize how stupid this sounds coming from me, but w/e I'll get to that later). But so far I think he stays off my lynch today pile.

LOOK HOW FLUID THIS IS!

Why the fuck is this even on the table for lynching...

Calling ThAd town doesn't make TWIE town. Saying you like ThAd's posts "because they come from town" doesn't make people town.

I'm holding out on the PA lynch. It will become evident tomorrow.

Right. Go for it.

(triple post FTW...sorry y'all.)

It deals with Rodgers push on Talah. I just can't see where that came from scum.

Unless there are two scum teams.

A second kill night2 would point towards that. But now Six is sticking to vig/BG claim. Snork has a guilty on AP, and Snork claim, while pointing to possible non "shot" kill flavor, makes em think SK more than 2 mafia teams.

But, you could always make yourself obvtown instead.

[PeregrineV]

Vote: AngryPidgeon

We have until mod closes thread, if anyone has anything else.

[PeregrineV]

After a further reread of scum ISOs I have a slightly changed position. I think I can build the most coherent case on Peregrine rather than ThAd based on interactions. I'm busy today and tomorrow, but for now the basic premise of the case is that there are strong similarities between the ways that the known scum treated each other and how they treated Peregrine.

AP - gives constant non-commital reads on Peregrine, exactly like he does with mastin.
mastin - Peregrine is stated as a moderate town read several times, with a similar treatment given to AP and Yates. mastin is known for being anti-bussing so this is unsurprising.
Yates - Has lots of discussions with Peregrine with little accusation - exactly as with AP.

There are other specific posts that I could easily interpret as scumbuddies interacting as well and I will get to these later.

You have 12 days, so you could actually do this with all living players.

[PeregrineV]

You have 12 days, so you could actually do this with all living players.

I didn't just pick your name out of a hat. I have looked at this with every player - that is how I ended up with a shortlist of yourself and ThAd, both of you who I previously believed to be town. I will openly post my interaction analysis on each player in the coming days to show why I came to this conclusion though.

You should. It would help us all.

But, you should also know that Mastin will bus exactly one of his teammates.

[PeregrineV]

But, you should also know that Mastin will bus exactly one of his teammates.

This is something I've thought about, but in this case I'm not seeing the bus. I've moved on from thinking SnowStorm is scum, and this is all I could think on this front. If there was a 5th scum then perhaps someone like SnowStorm fits in. Mastin was not on top form this game though and was quite flippy on her reads, so I definitely think that Yates and especially AP's interactions are more interesting

Well, it's there. It was pointed out a while back about he doesn't bus. Next few Mastin scum-games, sure enough, a single bussed scum.

[PeregrineV]

Well, it's there. It was pointed out a while back about he doesn't bus. Next few Mastin scum-games, sure enough, a single bussed scum.

So who is it this game then?

Haven't looked yet, but since I can iso Yates, AP, and Mastin all together, I'm sure something will pop up.

[PeregrineV]

So are we gonna lynch Pere now?

No. Wasting the entire day and ending it with my mislynch is not acceptable.

[PeregrineV]

I think it is.

Snork, TheWay, Deas are all clear (Snork not 100% but I'm fine putting him here for right now). Six is gonna be dead tonight (if Snork dies, we lynch Six. If someone else does, fuck it Snork clears someone else). One more player will be cleared by Snork tonight (or he catches scum again and we don't have to worry about anything else but let's assume that doesn't happen because then there's nothing left to discuss right now).

So we have: Egg, Pere, ThAd, Snow, Penguin, projectmatt, Damon minus tonight's clear. So after today's lynch if the game isn't over we have four players in the lynch pool with nine alive. If there is one scum left, that gives us three lynches to find one scum out of four players. If there is SK, the numbers are a little different, but not bad enough that we are in horrible shape or anything.

So literally the only thing to do is pick a name from the process of elimination list. For me, I'm town. Snow is a strong town read. Pretty sure Penguin is town. That just leaves Damon, projectmatt, ThAd, and Pere. I don't really care who gets lynched from those four names. And I personally hope Snork checks one of those names but it's his action and he can do what he wants. But yeah, I think that's our map to ending this in a town win and any new info only makes it easier along the way.

So basically that's why I'm fine just lynching Pere and calling it a day.

20 players means 2 scum left.
If there is an SK, could be another.

Is there a particular reason you're not even trying?

[PeregrineV]

Spoiler: Select Mastin-Yates-AP posts (pg 2)

VOTE: Damon Gant.

It's not vanity.
It's

sanity

.

Mastin, talk to me about Damon. Im wondering if he hasn't been a huge blind spot in my peripheral.

I think Im leaning towards a Pisskop vote. He was scummy and the DV kills makes sense for it. Im guessing Talah was SKdVigd.

Vote: RachMarie

Semi-meaningful, mainly for her awful hop onto the Luca wagon, but I will be reevaluating my positions in this game properly in the next 24 hours or so.

Yep, this is scum.

Mastin, talk to me about Damon. Im wondering if he hasn't been a huge blind spot in my peripheral.

If he's anything but a scumread, yeah, he's been a blindspot of yours. Dude's pure scum. However...

vote: aptil

for using deadline as an excuse to not post content (and that felt hammer felt like a kneejerk reaction to being pressured)

post 1733-1734 by mastin feel like trying to paint me, damon, and thad badly for the incoming mislynches. Although it could be town suspicious of the wagons. We'll see how mastin plays today.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty.
4nxi3ty is just as much a scumread (if not more, if that's even possible--like, Damon's a top-tier scumread and yet anxiety is just as strong if not stronger than top-tier), and I'm more interested in (re)wagoning him.

Rach's posting overall feels like town, by the way.

I don't know what to make of matinWKing the lynches.

I actually bothered to think yesterday rather than shutting my brain off?

^Thats town enough that we aren't lynching it Today.

Today? Try ever.

This is weird.

Helpful hint: weird = scum.

Sorta caught up, but skimmed the walls.

Town: Nero, Peregrine, Anxiety, aptil (pretty town for vig claim)
Probably town, want to talk to them more: Yates, mastin
Town? Possibly stale reads, could be (probably is?) a scum here: Snork, PA, Snowstorm, Damon Gant
Meh: Pmatt, RM
Scummy: TheWayItEnds, Bipolar, ThAdmiral, DV

@Snork

- I love post 1790 right up until the NKA. I see others have addressed this but yeah - NKA is p-much a wifom bomb.

I'm surprised to see Chemist in the Town list. Can you explain? Other than that, I like your Town list. [oh - bc of his return post? meh]

Also, pisskop slot [TheWayItEnds] is scum. I'm putting matt in the scum pile too.

I might come around on ThAd scum but I want him to be Town. I still have him in my "to be sorted" pile with mastin, Pere and Nero.

SnowStorm is playing a good game. I have him leaning Town but my confidence is shaky. When I start thinking I may be wrong, he responds with a strong post or good logic when pressed. I haven't played with him enough to know what this means but I don't remember him being this - logical? focused? organized? - in Rocky Horror.

I think PA is going to help me read the Rogers slot so I'm not voting there.

how likely do ya all think it is that we have one large scum team or two scum teams and how likely do you think it is we have a SK?

I wouldn't rule out a limited shot SK or some kind of odd-night vs even-night scum team. But I'm inclined to believe Aptil. While I don't do NKA I also don't think scum would waste a shot on a potential easy mislynch. [then again - what an awesome play for an SK to earn an obv-Town read!] I'm playing as if we have one scum team because I don't think it matters.

I'm going to:
VOTE: TheWayItEnds

Looking forward to seeing death or contribution from this slot.

Ok, lets stop bitching at each other over bullshit and actually wagon scum today then?

I need to sort: Snowstorm, matt, damon, dv.

Are you townreading matt at all?

Where are matt and pere? Or even bpc, for that matter?

Once again I'm not liking either wagon and I feel like scum is sitting back and laughing. TWIE is exactly where I'd expect to find scum on the RM wagon. Now I have to go look closer at 4nx.

Town: Nero, Peregrine, Anxiety, aptil (pretty town for vig claim)
Probably town, want to talk to them more: Yates, mastin
Town? Possibly stale reads, could be (probably is?) a scum here: Snork, PA, Snowstorm, Damon Gant
Meh: Pmatt, RM
Scummy: TheWayItEnds, Bipolar, ThAdmiral, DV

Switch Anxiety and, well, everyone in the scummy list except TWIE, and you've got a good start. Because the scum list would be empty, bump Damon down for a start. And work from there.

Town: Nero, Peregrine,

Anxiety

, aptil (pretty town for vig claim)
Probably town, want to talk to them more: Yates, mastin
Town? Possibly stale reads, could be (probably is?) a scum here: Snork, PA, Snowstorm, Damon Gant
Meh: Pmatt, RM
Scummy: TheWayItEnds, Bipolar, ThAdmiral,

DV

Ok cool. I disagree most with the bolded.

Snork's probably town, though.

How many players started in the game? I'm thinking I need one more in addition to 4nxi3ty, Damon, and TWIE (who is scumposting, by the way).

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Snowstorm, but not sure 'bout that.

Rach looks super-mega-town, btw.

RAWRs cans I interject this rach detour?
[on snow]

probably

totally bussing. (how do I feign excitement about wagoning a buddy? "Let's Do It")

...

vote: SnowStorm

fairly certain snow is attempting to tie himself to me by presenting an intentional wishywashy read;
also wondering if snowstorm is currently bussing thad.

VOTE: 4nxi3ty.

(Yes, I'm a bit behind.)

It

was

vanity, as far as I'm concerned the whole charade of staying off the main wagons was vanity for all those involved, and it's the kind of posturing that I am wary of.

Except I was right:
Both wagons were on town.

Thus, attempting to get a wagon

not

on one of them wasn't vanity; it was sanity.

Snowstorm's posting just looks plain scum, now, btw. TWIE also looks like scum.

Oh, heck with it.

VOTE: Snowstorm.

Someone tell me if Penguin, Deas, and 4n make sense as scum. Those names were NOT chosen randomly

4nx, yes. PA, doubtful. DV, possible, but not probable.

/largely skimmed, but caught up.

Ya, but he was calling RM town for that reason before Thad got involved at all. I can understand thinking that a scummy player making a scummy push on an easy target makes them more town, but "Bad case on someone --> they are town" baffles me.

But I have less than zero interest in arguing Nero's townread on RM with him right now since I ultimately think both are town.

I've been sort of all over the place Today, so lets monologue about people in the spirit of regrouping:

penguin_alien - I dislike her posts about mastin. She seems somewhat undecided on mastin and shows no real interest in talking to her to resolve that. I'd expect her to be interested in mastin swooping in to add to her snowstorm wagon since she is apparently loosely suspicious of mastin when questioned about her. Reads more like posturing than actually trying to determine mastin's alignment, meh. Still Rogers posts feel unlikely to be from scum? Meh.

Snork - Town. Already largely discussed.

TheWayItEnds - I liked the original posts with Nero, felt like he wasn't nervous. Later contributions have fallen off and his RM votepark is pretty lame and easy. Sketchiest vote on the RM wagon just to take it off, post some bullshit about Yates who voted him, and go back to lurking? Scummy.

Egg - Egg has done fuck-all so far, but replaced BipolarChemist so Scummy.

Nero Cain - Pretty sure he's town. Reads like HPATPL/GoW Nero, aggressive, pointed.

aptil - Gets a pass for Vig claim. Is town barring reason to suspect SK/multiball.

Yates - I like his TWIE vote and that TWIE isn't gaining any traction makes TWIE less likely to be town tbh. Mindset and frustration reads town to me. His follow up on PA looks town-motivated. Town.

projectmatt - Who? Mostly a non-presence. Not doing anything that looks like scum hunting. Throws some townreads around and lurks. Meh leaning toward hm.

PeregrineV - Has basically done nothing Today. Still think hes probtown from Yestreday's posts, would like to see him step it up though.

mastin2 - Lurking is generally not a mastin thing regardless of anything and this is getting a little ridiculous, I realize RL sucks, but I could reallllly use you to bounce reads off of if you are town in this game. 2004/5 feels like town stream of thought, but mastin can fake that sort of thing as scum so meh. Meh. Probably not scum if PA is.

SnowStorm - Shows up to respond to case on him and not much else recently. Writes off my pressure as bullshit and justifies to Anxiety that its easier to detect bullshit about him than other place. Defense is scummy and general lack of proactive play; very reactionary. Scummy.

Damon_Gant - Actually back to leaning town here on an ISO skim. Dont at all get what mastin is seeing here and she should back that up.

4nxi3ty - Suspicion on Snowstorm is town as fuck, since that is something townies tend to be paranoid about. Could be dropping fake tells as scum, but strongly doubt it. Reaction to pressure has felt genuine.

RachMarie - Lol.

ThAdmiral - Meh?

DeasVail - I'd lynch it.

Snow/TWIE team calling it now. That awkward chainsaw/bus is just too much.

@Damon (and anyone else I guess): Why does SnowStorm as scum stop voting for talah (who is a pretty ideal lynch for scum as he's actually a good player) and change it to ThAdmiral?

a) To encourage another wagon and split up town votes more - causing confusion and small potential for no lynch.
b) talah may well be a good player but equally as long as he was in this game an aura of suspicion would have followed him. Keeping a player who a large number of people are suspicious of in the game for a long time can certainly work for scum later.
c) Hunting for PRs - hoping to induce a flashwagon on ThAd.

Also
d) Didn't want to be on a mislynch wagon on D1?
e) Sometimes scum just do shit because they can, no explicit scum motivation behind it?

Why are you focused on this singular point for Snow, DV? That means that all the people who hopped off the wagon and/or back on are town because its such a silly thing to do so only town would do it? No.

K. Are we seriously back to 5 days left until deadline?

Nero, RM, Yates, Anxiety, PV, Snork, [aptil-slot], thadmiral are all pretty town.

Townblock, start suggesting good lynches and why.

I want TWIE, Matt, or Snow right now the most. Could maybe do mastin (not really a scumread, but decent compromise at this point), Egg (replaced Bipolar, doesnt feel like town-egg really).

I think I'd rather not lynch DV today actually. Someone throw something out.

btw, so you know, I think your hops on luca, rach, and snowstorm are

interesting

along with mastin's scumread of you.

Define interesting.

Damon might actually be town. I like more of his reads than I don't.

If this is still valid, Nero (tell me if it's not), then I'll give it a more detailed look later. I might be in the mood to just sheep someone and you're a better bet than most.

Rach's analysis strongly looks town, too.

MAstin, are you still in this game?

Technically, yes. The mod didn't send a second prod thanks to V/LA, and I promised posting later tonight.

Truthfully...well. *points to posting*
...I'm feeling a deep disconnect with the game. Not The Fall levels of bad, not even close, but...loosely akin to that? Like...there's the feeling I can do good, but...that I'm not able to do it, if that makes sense.

Want to vote Mastin, but don't like 4nxiety on there.....

Simple solution, vote 4nxi3ty.

...Though I'm considering going back to TWIE.

mastin, damon, snow, thad, matt are all lynchable to me to some degree. I think a mastin lynch is the right play. The getting into 1v1 with talah -> coming back "remembering talah as town" -> voting talah -> then defending moments before lynch doesn't read as natural change of mind. Tone feels manipulative too.

Or not.

Would prefer Mastin, maybe TheWayitEnds(torn on this slot), maybe anxiety but I think Snow is town, and Egg/BiPolar as town (but agree that now-Egg silence is bothersome). Matt would be a less preferable but currently acceptable.

Honestly, I agree with just about everything here. (Yes, including the bit about me being an okay lynch.)

/88.

There's other stuff here I'll think about when thinking's easier. Still not seeing any particular reason not to lynch SnowStorm. Would lynch mastin I think. Not sure about TWIE. AP, I assume you'll be commenting, but I want to know where you stand on mastin now, given that you were kind of willing to lynch her before her catch-up posts.

I dont see how anyone is townreading Snowstorm at all and didn't like mastin's vote flop over to TWIE and waffle on SS.

So, still want to lynch snowstorm but would entertain mastin lynch. Im not seeing any strong town-mastin indicators. Mastin brings up Mini 1521 where I mis-lynched mastin whilst saying that, but I dunno. I reallly don't see anything that looks all that town from mastin and that is worrisome. Bringing up The Fall could easily be a way to get PV and me to not vote her over her extreme lack of presence this game. I want to say the lack of zeal is a straight up scumtell, but I cant. I think mastins post look a little shallow.

Might sheep Yates if it comes down to it, but going to hope for Snowstorm support for now.

Why does it take you so long to end up over here then?

Because I still think 4nxi3ty is scum and still kinda want to wagon him?

Uhhh, what would you expect scum PA to do different.

Her to treat me differently? It's kinda difficult to describe, but, her attitude seems like it was a town one to take about me.

Uhhh, You just posted this about DV. Except their reads aren't THAT in sync.

Doesn't matter? Like...DV's posting looked really good. Damon's posting also looked good, but in a different way, with reads not quite the same but making it even more reason to think him town rather than less.

Im not buying that you 'forgot' why he was scummy.

You scum this game, AP?

You're asking a lot of somewhat-loaded questions here, and even those that aren't are either things you already know or are getting wrong that I really wouldn't expect. I've rambled about my bad memory in a LOT of games, as both alignments, and telling the truth every time. You know this. Like...you can argue that it's convenient for a scum-me to forget. That's an okayish reason. (Not great, though.) But you're not.

Really, you are going to bring that game up?

Well, Xenogears wasn't over at the time, and what I really meant was 'like Xenogears' when Xenogears was 'like The Fall', so...kinda? It's not as bad as Xeno, which wasn't quite as bad as The Fall. But it's the same type of feeling, just a lesser severity, if that makes sense.

You feel like you are coasting here.

I guess I am? I mean, I'm giving content. I'm contributing. I'm posting. But my heart's not into it, and it's a struggle, and I'm not doing a good job at it, so I suppose I am. I'll try to figure something out to fix it.

Talk to me about my reads.

Alright.

Mister Rogers/PA
Snork
AngryPidgeon
BipolarChemist/Egg
Yates
PeregrineV

PA's null to me overall right now.
Snork's posting looks town, but feels like it has to be an alt. It feels like this level of drive and familiarity could only come from an insider. So if Snork really weren't an alt, I'd actually feel like scum if that makes sense.
AP's a concern, since he's not feeling the townvibes.
I liked BipolarChemist's posting and Egg's has continued the trend.
Yates is null, as is PV. Don't really remember anything from either of them.

With a lynch list of {Snork/PA/Yates/AP/PV/Thad}, basically the only one I wouldn't want lynched is ThAd, whose posting does look town to me.

I haven't done anything yet. How can you compare my play here to hard boiled? What are you seeing in my play that is similar to Hard Boiled?

You've done enough for me to get that same vibe from you. Admittedly, your vote on matt seems like a divergence from what I remember about you (and thus, is a concern), but literally everything else I remember about you feels like, "I'm kinda forgetting that this game's not Hard Boiled", if that makes sense.

The scummy thing about Matt is he isn't doing anything to make enemies. He has given no scum reads at all but throws a few strong town reads out. That doesn't fit the picture of a lurker who lost interest.

That looks like scum trying really hard to be on everyone s good side with minimal input.

And he out of the blue conjures a singular scum read for zero logical reason up after getting called scummy for not having any. It's looks like active lurking.

Yates, where are you? Talk to me about your thoughts on current events please. I don't think mastin is a good lynch today. Where do you stand on Thad?

@Matt: I may go summarize that in a bit, but Ive talked about Snow quite a bit Today.

the way you talk about me paints a different picture

Not so much my strength of read on you as my strength of read on others, kinda sorta.

If anyone has a problem with this lynch, explain why, because I haven't seen a single good reason to believe that ThAd is town.

Everything about him is ridiculously town, even if not sheeping-town. Look at his posts from his perspective. They're not calculated. They're not artificial. They're not precise. These are all traits of a scum ThAd. They're impulsive. Rash. Emotional. Argumentive rather than manipulative. He's not trying to push an agenda; he's frustrated about the game. His posting looks genuine, like he's trying to figure out the game.

Like, I'm just about as disjointed from the game as can be, yet I can tell all of this basically instantly.

They're not calculated. They're not artificial. They're not precise. These are all traits of a scum ThAd. They're impulsive. Rash. Emotional. Argumentive rather than manipulative.

Pretty much this. (thank god mastin is town).

I dont see how Snow is pulling "Thad is being manipulative" out of this. There is really no direct point to Thad doing this as scum, unless you want to argue hes just trying to look town by doing something townie. But making that distinction is gonna take more backing than "its overdone" cause saying Thad is being manipulative is... well...manipulative.

P-edit: I'd still rather not lynch him, I think there are way better people to lynch.

Six and Rm are town. I think I'm leaning town on Egg more recently.

On phone

I also really liked the comment about "the 2 off the wagons because RachMarie said so". When the wagons were almost ENTIRELY split in half the playerlist, AND were both on town, you cannot use that kind of dumb logic to scumhunt... by some kind of arbitrary fucking formula.

I meant it when I said RM is blacklisted. I hope someone fucking shoots her. I want her out of this game regardless of her alignment. She's a fucking liability.

VOTE: Snork.

This is not town ranting.

Wondering about a Snork-PA-TWIE-4nxi3ty scumteam.

Pere, I agree that if anyone has a null red on Mastin they should say why. I can't see the kind of null where they just can't pull any info out of his posts. What I could see is someone wavering in their read.

I agree, as my own read on her is wavering. Her initial posting seemed like scum-Mastin to a T. Only the last few posts have given me any town feelings.

Not this post specifically, but general area around here, PV's very strongly town.

Top Wagons
TheWayItEnds [4 votes] (DeasVail, mastin2, PeregrineV, Damon_Gant)
ThAdmiral [3 votes] (SnowStorm, RachMarie, Nero Cain)
projectmatt [3 votes] (4nxi3ty, penguin_alien, Egg)

Holy shit that matt wagon sucks.

Matt's town. Never lynch him.

ThAd's also town, even though the only possible scum name I see on there is SnowStorm and I don't think he's scum.

But I do really like the TWIE wagon.

So I guess I can go back there.

VOTE: TWIE.

Snork, AP said projectmatt was lurking, giving town reads, and going back to lurking in response to my noticing projectmatt lacking scum reads. Nero didn't like my trusting that AP was telling the truth about that without researching it on my own. So I asked Nero if AP was lying.

And I'm actually kind of thinking Nero is right about Six, but I'd rather lynch mafia than find out right now.

Preview edit:
Yeah looking for town more than scum is fine. But even if that is what you are doing, you need to call someone scum at some point too. Not doing so just seems like scum wanting to fly under the radar and not step on toes.

And I might actually be changing my mind on Six from when I started this post. I might be ok with lynching him sooner rather than later.

Preview edit again:
Rach, don't worry about it yet. Trust me. Please.

Egg's posting here is looking worse and worse.

I am town JOAT no friggen way would we have TWO town JOATs.

Rach, trust me. He's town. You're town. Let's not get distracted on townVtown and instead focus on lynching scum.

Anyway. I'm going to be late for work if I post anymore, so I'll continue from page 100.
Egg's posting on Six seems opportunistic, though.

Rach: what did you do last night?
Six: What did you do last night?

I dont really see a scenario where I vote someone other than Six right now since the 1x vig claim looks like a lie.

Ok. So. Six is accusing me of being a Serial Killer.

He is accusing me of not shooting last night (despite there being two kills?)...and framing him for a kill that I apparently didn't make and that his slot claimed on N1.

He is a claimed JOAT now but didnt use his bodyguard action on cofnirmed town RM or anyone else last night.

Sometimes, it really is this easy.

VOTE: 6

RachMarie is surely a JOAT. SiX could be scum.

Let's worry about this after an AP flip.

Yes its clearly here because it can false guilty me and probably false inno the Serial killer probs six).

The false guilty would be on vig. So that makes Six more believable. Although the 2nd kill is concerning. I don't see how the SK would provide a false negative if you are suggesting we have an SK and scum since both 4nx and Nero were SHOT.

I wanted to comment on this yesterday but Mastin was hammered before I could add my snarky comment:

Wondering about a Snork-PA-TWIE-4nxi3ty scumteam.

This looks like a scum slip. 4 person scum team [with mastin]. Also seems very likely he included one of his buddies in that "read." If Snork is right about AP [and I see no reason to believe he's faking] he's confirmed. 4nx flipped Town so he's confirmed. That leaves PA and TWIE for my microscope tomorrow.

Seems a little OP if I can check 2 of the 3 types of anti-town roles.

Well, the counter is you could have "caught" our vig if Aptl hadn't used his power immediately and wanted to save it for when he had a higher probability shot.

So anyway, if AP flips SK this is all moot. BUT - it looks like mastin slipped a scum team of 4. A second scum team also seems OP. That's the only thing that has me thinking SK at this point because otherwise I have no explanation for the 2nd shot. 6 scum seems like too many. Plus Aptl claimed one of the kills. IDK.

PE: UNVOTE: mastin
Good idea.

I don't want to check SiX tonight. I'd rather check one of the unknowns.

Yeah. Check someone else. Pretend you are a cop and treat SiX like a Miller claim. Aptil admitted he would show as having a gun and there's no reason not to believe that. I'm not sure what a second check would prove/disprove.

I'll protect you so you can at least get another read out.

Can we not just lynch AP?

Can we just wait for Snork? We have two weeks and this lynch will go down in less than two HOURS. Plus, like 1/3 of the player base hasn't even posted yet today.

Note the bolded parts. I guess we should

wait for everyone to say their bit

...

Sorry. I see why you would think that was directed at you [since I quoted you] but that was a response in general [and more specifically to SiX]. I just wanted to add on the part about how a bunch of people haven't posted today and have yet to react.

Day 2 VCs were more valuable to me when I was looking at them last night.

I'm trying to communicate something to you without saying it.

Ready?

Look at counts 2.10 and 2.11. Assume Snow and Egg are Town. Think about it...

For now, it's not worth worrying about.

Agreed 100%.

a kill was probably stopped

Twice? Both nights resulted in two shots. One shot each night for the mafia kill. Done. One shot N1 from Aptl/SiX. Who was the second shooter last night? Or are you thinking SK also has a "shot"

flavor

[for lack of a better word].

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

[PeregrineV]

I'd like to give Yates a chance to put me under the microscope

I'm not doing that today. Feels rather like chasing my own tail.

Yates, I assume you think ThAd is scum?

Yeah. I realized how stupid that message was about 5 seconds after clicking submit. I'm a totally leet spy.

But yeah. Thad is flying under the radar. He was suspected by numerous conf Town. He's had a wagon on him consisting entirely of Town reads and conf Town. Mastin - AP - Thad is a scary scum combo. Anyway, it's at least something I'd want to rule out - but that's just me. Pretty much the only wasted investigation would be on SiX, RM, and probably Snow.

PE: woah! Will read these in a sec...

From page 3

[PeregrineV]

I'm voting for the player who most of the townie players agree is likely scum. How is that not trying?

Well, lack of bothering to determine it on your own.

If you aren't invested in me as scum, then you aren't looking for my partners, which means you aren't scumhunting.

If you think I am scum, you still don't seem to be looking for my partners.

If you think I might be town and you just can't be bothered to check, then you're not looking for scum.

See, it kind of looks like you are not scumhunting. In a mafia game.

[PeregrineV]

I'm V/LA due to a brew competition this weekend. I'll be active starting Monday.

That said... what is this?

Would also throw a vote BBMolla's way for scum-placing out.

Does BBMolla

actually

have a track record of replacing out of games as scum or are you being terrible for no reason? You are better than this.

VOTE: PeregrineV

Looking back at Yates first post, this overreaction might make more sense now. Need to look at Matt reads through the game.

[PeregrineV]

If you're scum, Mastin, AP, and Yates were your partners. Maybe there's another. Maybe not. Why should I assume five scum? If you are SK, you have no partners and looking for them is a wild goose chase. And of course you might be town. Anyone could. Welcome to mafia.

You should assume

9 players: 7 town, 2 scum
12 or 13 players: 9 or 10 town, 3 scum
16 players: 12 town, 4 scum
20 players: 15 town, 5 scum
24 players: 18 town, 6 scum or 16 town, 8 scum (usually two teams)

because that's been the generally understood range to account for the last of non-verbal clues that forum mafia has against it.

[PeregrineV]

And those numbers line up with you being the SK and PA being the last maf so whats the problem.

Seriously why isnt this dead yet?

I thought PA was already dead. Need to look back through.

[PeregrineV]

Matt is town.

I think that Mister Rodgers is town. There's opportunistic scum and then there's the kind of town who plays on the offensive, "I want to win so badly!' mode. It seems pretty blatant that Mr. Rodgers is an alternate account who is trying to come off as very confident. In terms of getting him read successfully - it works. I'm pretty sure that he's town, but I don't exactly agree with all of his analysis.

Townread on Zdenek. Townread on DeasVail. Tentative townread on bjc. Tentative townread on RachMarie.

I know most of you are calling out Damon Giant for voting bjc, but [Doc's] post is actually a

worse

sin. This looks like a way for Doc to essentially give himself wriggle room to vote BJC later in the game. The rest of his play hasn't given me much of an indicator of his alignment, though.

Pretty dang certain this slot's town. (Though, I still prefer Molla. Molla, I can obvtown. You, not so much.)

Damon gant - There's something about the way he posts that screams slightly-inexperienced town. Stubbornly going after bjc, questioning zdenek for accusing him of being scum without any explanation. town

Look at his joindate, ThAd. Damon's had plenty of games; he's anything but inexperienced.

This is important and needs responding to.

Fairly certain I already did? There's less than a handful of people who really get me as a player. Like, literally, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is AP. There's others, of course, but he's the only one in my mind who has that 100% accuracy. Others have tried, and scum have claimed they can, but they either failed or lied.

You seem way more focused/calculating as scum.

Yeah, I'm fairly good as scum. However, I'm not nearly as good this year at it as I was last year. In 2013, I had a decent towngame and a solid, SOLID scumgame. This year, my towngame has been meh-at-best so far, and my scumgame's also taken a severe hit in strength, too. I suspect both actually have a root in the same problem: people are expecting my play to be more than it actually is, assuming I'm better than I actually am, alignment-regardless. Heck, even my theory capacities have gone downhill; it's been three months, and there's barely been a ping on me making an MD thread so far. (Well, there has been, but I need to refine the idea so that it doesn't send off the wrong message of condoning something rather than the intended effect of potentially offering an explanation for said something.)

(Yates is town, by the way. His stances don't come from scum, like...at all.)

[PeregrineV]

If you're scum, Mastin, AP, and Yates were your partners. Maybe there's another. Maybe not. Why should I assume five scum? If you are SK, you have no partners and looking for them is a wild goose chase. And of course you might be town. Anyone could. Welcome to mafia.

You should assume

9 players: 7 town, 2 scum
12 or 13 players: 9 or 10 town, 3 scum
16 players: 12 town, 4 scum
20 players: 15 town, 5 scum
24 players: 18 town, 6 scum or 16 town, 8 scum (usually two teams)

because that's been the generally understood range to account for the last of non-verbal clues that forum mafia has against it.

Eh. I'm honestly not as comfortable as you are with assuming that there is no SK.

I don't usually include the SK in the scum numbers. Really depends on the game size and power allocated to town.

[PeregrineV]

And those numbers line up with you being the SK and PA being the last maf so whats the problem.

Seriously why isnt this dead yet?

The numbers line up with me being Mafia? Heh, good one.

Will take a look at the case PV for scum; for me it's between SnowStorm and PV from what I remember, but I haven't looked at things recently.

P-edit: AP is dead, I am not...

Yeah, I noticed. There is no case for me, nor will there be. This doesn't seem to be that kind of game.

And if your town, now's the time to do something.

[PeregrineV]

Because PV is smarter than everyone pushing for the existence of a SK (Pointing at me).

Or he's a SK himself trying to deny the existence of one. Not saying that is, just one of the possibilities ^^

Have no clue if an SK exists or not. Could be a town vig. Talah was a good shot, considering how divisive day1 went down.
Nero I wouldn't have shot as vig, but I can ignore him. 4nxiety I might have shot, as his lurkiness was suspect.

[PeregrineV]

All you SK theorists, theorize why there was no SK kill last night.

[PeregrineV]

Are you serious....

1) RachMarie, the JOAT with an unused JK, used the JK on the SK.

Then you would look at Rach's scumreads and try to decude who that might be. What have you deduced?

2) The SK and mafia targeted the same person.

Why would the SK want to kill Rach? Why would the SK choose Nero/4nxiety over Rach the previous night?

3) The mafia has a roleblocker who blocked the SK.

If you think this, then you believe AngryPidgeon when he said they know who it is, and he said it's SiX. Does you think this likely?

4) SK decided not to shoot last night.

Why would the SK not shoot last night? Town or scum, it would be in their best interest to reduce the number of non-SK players.

The fact that there was an unexplained second kill on N2 provides further evidence that there is an SK.

Is it possible that we just have a really shitty town vig? Yes. It is. Do I think so? No cuz they would have claimed by now, plus the fact that SiX claimed N1's second kill.

Yes, the night2 thing is the strongest evidence. But, claiming reduces the scum POE by one. Shooting tonight and claiming tomorrow reduces it by two, etc.
Also, claiming a 1-shot vig as a 2-shot vig is also very town, IMO.

[PeregrineV]

5) The SK is bulletproof and took the maf shot.

Could be. Relates back to 3) above.

6) The last remaining maf doesnt have a factional kill ability and is a doctor or some shit instead.

Mafia docs are kind of very rare, and I don;'t recall the last one I saw in a Normal game, and Mafia always has a kill ability (Normal game).

Seriously, instead of that, how about some reasoning for the n2 second kill that doesnt point towards an SK.

I did say vig.

But this is kind of not really the issue. SK hunting when there are 2 scum left- seems like time can be better spent.

[PeregrineV]

Whoa. Is it crazy that there could be two factions of 3 each and we just haven't gotten any of the other faction? That would kind of explain PV's irrational attempts at diverting attention from SiX and trying to discount the theory of an SK since it would likely result in his partner's lynch. PV-SiX-??

p-edit: There's only 1 left if there's an SK, and we're not SK hunting. No one is going "X could be the SK because Y". You're like off the charts dude.

No, off the charts. Different mafia are clearly labelled (normal game).

[PeregrineV]

Actually getting around to reading the triple-Mafia ISO of doom today.

For people who think I'm scum, please do check out my comments on mastin, especially relative to the reasoning of most people who ended up on the wagon, and tell me with a straight face that you think I'm scum. Especially if you know me and my anti-bussing tendencies. The idea that I'd crack open my own Mafia team is pretty far out for me. Which, heh, hey, PV, we've played together enough that you're welcome to weigh in on that one. Not sure anyone else left alive would know me well enough with the possible exception of DV?

More whenever I slog through the 442 scum posts...

I tried to spoiler some of the relevant ones. Reads, attacks, defenses, etc.

[PeregrineV]

You're dumb. Really.

You do realize that as an alive claimed investigative role, that if you are not NKed, you need to be lynched prior to lylo to verify your results. Preferably a day or 2.

[PeregrineV]

lol you're dumb too.

Worst case, we have 2 mislynches left. Today, and tomorrow. You really think that a) scum are going to keep me alive just on the off-chance they can convince town to lynch me and b) leave me around to continue investigating? I think not.

But go on, keep trying to sow seeds of doubt about my claim, about the existence of an SK, about the number of scum left. It's amusing, but you're still dead today. And on the slim possibility you are town, I'm probably dead tonight. So you'll get your flip one way or the other.

I've really about had it with this game. People keep prod-dodging and messing about with crap. I'm getting bored.

Actually, it's standard mafia theory. If you are scum fakeclaiming, then you would of course not die, and you could "clear" town but also "clear" scum.


Your results are not validated until you are. You are usually not validated until dead.

[PeregrineV]

No we aren't anywhere near questioning whether or not Snork is lying scum.

Just because you aren't, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

The fact that Snork lived last night AND got a result means if scum have a rolebleocker, they did not use it on him (a better target)?. If they do not have a rolebleocker, then why is he alive? As a player and as a role he is way more dangerous to scum than RachMarie (no offense Rach! )

Allowing him to live and get results seems suboptimal for scum to play. Especially given that Mastin/AP/Yates were all scum.

One day I might be able to understand (that would be last night). Anything else past that is unrealistic on the part of scum to allow him to live. Ditto on the part of town.

[PeregrineV]

Alright, just making sure because you seemed interested in the fact that the Taleh kill was vig claimed by not-you.

Snork:
SiX and you are BOTH not making it to lylo.
I still think ThAd is town but i have no problems with her shooting DG, PA or SS.

There is no reason to kill SiX unless you think he is a scum-vig or a one-shot SK.
Snork should be able to get one more result with a protection by Snork.
While Ffery picking off players is preferable, she can make an informed decision, and use her remaining shots strategically.

Especially since I'm reasonably sure that PV flips red.

You are so wrong that I'm surprised you haven't imploded.

[PeregrineV]

Just a small question, is there a possibility with 2 mafia factions, 1 mafia faction shoots every even round and the other every odd round?
The reason for this is Yates (first vote) on Mastin2, and Yates + AP's interactions. May be a Yates - AP team and a Mastin - X team?

Even though flavor doesn't/shouldn't matter, werewolves don't usually "shoot". That was one reason I asked Snork about his wording.

Snork+SiX+Ffery makes way more sense. 2 false positives puts more WIFOM into a Gunsmith role.

Still contend 2 scum left.

[PeregrineV]

Well, I just want to understand the foundation of the town read. I have personally been extremely conflicted about his slot. Day 2 I really felt he might be town, but his flip on Nero was odd, combined with his D1 play, and his disappearance today, as well as the idea that we now are looking at 2 mafia left, making Yates et al bussing him more plausible, he's probably not a bad option.

PV - if we're wrong, what are your reads, investigation choices, vig choices?

Quick and dirty, since replace-ins are throwing me off.


Nominally cleared

bjc

Snork -GUNSMITH

Doc Holliday

pisskop

TheWayItEnds- NO GUN

aptil

SiX -JOAT (VIG, BG)

BBmolla

projectmatt

fferyllt- VIG
DeasVail -NO GUN

Cleared by me:
PeregrineV

Remaining (will do a post for each):
SnowStorm
Damon_Gant
ThAdmiral

BipolarChemist

Egg

Mister Rogers

penguin_alien

zakk

talah

TOWN

Smudger

AngryPidgeon

SCUM

Luca Blight

TOWN

Nero Cain

TOWN

Yates

SCUM

mastin2

SCUM

4nxi3ty

TOWN

RachMarie

TOWN JOAT (JK, FN)

Zdenek

TOWN

[PeregrineV]

Its just amazing that I've been calling you scum since day 2 and your exemplary play today hasnt changed my mind.

No, it's pretty common. Especially considering my stellar day1 opinion of Talah-scum bussing Luca-scum, and both flipping town the next day.

Put aside your opinion of me and just read the words like from a stranger.

[PeregrineV]

I also tend to think that since SiX can guarantee Snork lives, there's no reason for Snork not to claim his investigation target outright to keep from having that person shot by fferyllt if nothing else.

Scum roleblocker may exist? But, that once again raises the question of why was Snork not blocked last night.

[PeregrineV]

Each one will take time to look back over, so here is my starting point. If anyone can add anything to these or wants to do the work on one of them, that'd be cool.

Overview

Remaining (will do a post for each):
SnowStorm
Damon_Gant
ThAdmiral

BipolarChemist

Egg

Mister Rogers

penguin_alien

SnowStorm

- There was some mid game play that I read from SnowStorm as town. Since a lot of it was reaction to other players, I'll want to go over his iso again to see if those players are town or scum. Also, will look for specific Snowstorm mentions in the tri-iso.

DamonGant-

I started with early townvibes on him. This seemed to run counter to majority opinion, but the scummy stuff from him came from the fact that it's "considered" scummy now but wasn't some years ago. I'll go back and re-read him also.
In regards to the tri-iso, there was one point were Mastin was busting hard on Gant as scum, and AP responded back with something like "Are you SURE Damon is scum?" and Mastin backs off that read. Not sure if that was a "Don't bus" signal, or a "save for later mislynch" signal. It's there if you look, but I'll find it for quoting later. Also want to check other mentions, but first readthrough nothing pops back to mind except the above.

ThAdmiral

- Some earlygame posting gave me townvibes. There hasn't been that recently, so will do the SnowStorm treatment with him also.

Egg

- BiPolar did a strong posting job that convinced me he was town. Egg hasn;t really lived up to the legacy IMO, but will do a similar re-read to him.
One other thing. Early game when people wanted to attribute Egg(BiPolar)=town based on the Zdendek fakevig, Yates was pretty hard against it. Egg=town might be the reason scumYates would not want him even semi-cleared.

Penguin-

Rogers went hard against Talah. But it was all a legitimate argument (IMO). If we had two teams I was prepared to take another look at Rogers day1, but now I think there is only one mafia team.
There was also an early day1 thing were AP went kind of waffly on a Rogers read, which stood out only because I couldn't figure out what caused AP to waffle. Town does it all the time, so it got no thought. With his scum-flip, need to re-read that section.

[PeregrineV]

I do care that Egg asked me why I felt you were a better lynch than ThAd and i listed off some reasons and then you came in with oh theres no case on me this is just one of those games grumble grumble bullshit instead of addressing anything that I put into that post.

Gee, you sdo have a point, maybe. Let's do this.

First, there is no link. SO I have to iso you.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[PeregrineV]

OK, now, I have to find the post. CTRL+F "Egg" and hope to God you quoted his post or said his name.

[PeregrineV]

Perhaps this is it?

Egg tell me how ThAd is scummier than PV. Cause theres no way im seeing that.

Now, click on it to find out.

[PeregrineV]

Oh good, I';m in the right area.

Well, let's start with this. What is scummy about Pere?

[PeregrineV]

Is this it?

Everything?

go read his day 2 iso its all piles of shit disguised as content by asking others to generate content.

the only original thought that came out of that slot day 2 involved a sentence from pisskop that he said was different than others.

Then, after calling him out he says i only think hes scummy because he called me scum, disregarding that i did that first.

Day 3 is his shady as fuck hammer before the entire playerbase had even posted in thread.

You know what, dont even do that.

Just tell me what his stance is on half the players in the game.

Dude has literally zero reads.

[PeregrineV]

It must be. Let's respond.

Everything?

This is nice and vague. We'll assume that was a sarcastic introduction and skip the sarcastic reply.

go read his day 2 iso its all piles of shit disguised as content by asking others to generate content.

So, you insult my posts, but not specifically what was wrong with any of them. Just all of day2.
And this tells me you do not use relational tells or post content to actually scumhunt, since that would be what my posts would be doing if they meet this criteria.
If you do not use relational tells or psot content to scumhunt, then you are either scum, or just not a very good mafia player.
So, even though you think you told me nothing, I learned something about you.
I also learned that you don't read for content or look for relational tells, so any replay on my part would be a giant waste of time, or be answering scum, so would be a giant waste of time.
But, time allocated, so let's carry on.

the only original thought that came out of that slot day 2 involved a sentence from pisskop that he said was different than others.

No quote nor a link. I guess I could validate your interpretation by ISO me, then looking for pisskop, then reading the sentence, thinking back to why I made it, and then responding back to you.
So all that for a single sentence.
Since I already know you don't read for content or look for relational tells, it make it not worthwhile to do all of the above work to respond to you and one little sentence.

Then, after calling him out he says i only think hes scummy because he called me scum, disregarding that i did that first.

I thought this was you calling me out?
I guess it's happened before.
Maybe if there was a link to prove this sentence, I might investigate and see if I did or did not respond back then. You don't say I did, but I may have, so you are effectively casting me in a bad light while making it time consuming for the reader to confirm or deny, no even counting myself. Given the nature of your previous sentences, I've probably already made the determination that I don't care what you are saying, because you don't read for content or look for relational tells, so you are either scum, or just not a very good mafia player.

Day 3 is his shady as fuck hammer before the entire playerbase had even posted in thread.

Once again, the post? What was shady about it? Who did not get a chance to come in speak there piece? And who was it that we should have waited for that was town enough that my hammer was "shady" and a part of your "reasons" why I'm scummy?
So, this sentence attacks a post of mine without specifics. Yet you would seem to require a specific answer. Why? When you don't scumhunt via post content, any response would be unread by you.

You know what, dont even do that.

I think I did this. But now you are using it as a reason to call me scummy.

Just tell me what his stance is on half the players in the game.

Dude has literally zero reads.

This is one of those content things. I think I've given my stances multiple times.

So, I think this concludes the "addressing anything [you] put into the post."
It may also offer you some insight into your own play.

[PeregrineV]

So the defense here is... I dont bother reading the thread before I complain that theres no case on me boo hoo?

There is no defense. You didn't make a case. If you didn't have a Snork no-gun result you'd be dead from rope-burn already.

[PeregrineV]

Wow PV so witty. You're really showing TWIE. I mean, you're being so helpful, I really don't have any clue why you're today's lynch.

/sarcasm

Nah, I avoided wit. I didn't want anyone to think I was being cute or sarcastic.

If I'm today's lynch, it's because town is lazy.

[PeregrineV]

Like if you cant be bothered to check for reasons behind your own wagon I think we can just be done here.

Lynch this whenever FF is ready.

I'm aware of general sentiment. I'm aware of yours specifically.

That's all good and well, but don't try to imply or state you have actual reasons when you have shown nothing.

[PeregrineV]

If you're town, why are you wasting time arguing with a confirmed townie? You should be spending time questioning your scumreads. You're not.

I did, remember?

go read his day 2 iso its all piles of shit disguised as content by asking others to generate content.

And i'm not arguing, I'm educating.

When I get to the review, I'll ask questions I have.

[PeregrineV]

Also, just a follow-up note, quoting my posts and saying useless after each one is not a case nor a reason.

But, it could be useful for not appearing useless.

[PeregrineV]

Lets talk about this specifically because i think its pretty fucking telling.

Who didnt post day 3?
ProjectMatt.

Could ProjectMatt have had something to add about the events of night 2 and the following discussion on them?
Yeah probably not lets just hammer without waiting.

So you objected to the hammer on the claimed, investigated scum before the replaced out lurker posted?

This is telling because .........................
(You respond and explain why it is telling.)

[PeregrineV]

This is so riveting and really contributes to the plan. I'm just bolted to my seat.

Maybe thwacking TWIE to do some actual scumhunting might help. He's got time to try to make like there is an actual reason I'm being lynched besides PoE.

[PeregrineV]

I objected to the hammer on the claimed investigated scum WHO'S LYNCH I PUSHED FOR ALL OF DAY 2 AS MY PRIMARY SCUM READ because not everyone had posted in the thread if you cant figure out why waiting for PM would have been useful there really is no hope for you.

I saw no indication in your day3 post that you wanted to wait.

No way... Ap is scum?

What a shock. I can't believe it.

In other non sarcastic news:

Scum reads on me today are making me laugh.

PV is still scum,

but PA is writing a pretty good case on herself today (still less so than PV but really... what are you doing)

Why is there so much shitposting in the thread today by people who aren't AP?

Seriously, 1 of those posts is so bad from a gamestate point of view its unbelievable.

[PeregrineV]

And you can keep saying things like "not a very good mafia player" and "doesnt use relational tells" until you die but one of things is provably wrong, and from where I'm sitting it looks like my reads are doing a lot better than your reads this game.

Those were conclusions I reached based on your lack of backing up your opinion with actual posts.

If I'm wrong, show me.

My bad, I mean, if I'm wrong, show everyone else.

Since I have no idea of your reads until after a player flips, show

me

everyone else how and why your reads are so good.

Because right now you have me and penguin, which puts you clearly at 50% or 0%.

[PeregrineV]

I objected to the hammer on the claimed investigated scum WHO'S LYNCH I PUSHED FOR ALL OF DAY 2 AS MY PRIMARY SCUM READ because not everyone had posted in the thread if you cant figure out why waiting for PM would have been useful there really is no hope for you.

I saw no indication in your day3 post that you wanted to wait.

Did you see a vote by me onto my TOP SCUMREAD?

No?

Do you think there could be a reason for that?

[PeregrineV]

And you can keep saying things like "not a very good mafia player" and "doesnt use relational tells" until you die but one of things is provably wrong, and from where I'm sitting it looks like my reads are doing a lot better than your reads this game.

Those were conclusions I reached based on your lack of backing up your opinion with actual posts.

If I'm wrong, show me.

My bad, I mean, if I'm wrong, show everyone else.

Since I have no idea of your reads until after a player flips, show

me

everyone else how and why your reads are so good.

Because right now you have me and penguin, which puts you clearly at 50% or 0%.

Those were conclusions you reached based on being provably unaware of posts that I have made in the thread.

Man if only I had a big post of reads that identified that at the beginning of day 2 I thought that based on the info in thread that AP and Mastin had the same alignment.

AP is waaaaay less town than I thought he was yesterday. It seems like every page there's another post from AP that just screams "not town". I would have bought "I'm obviously town" yesterday but today.... I'm not seeing it. Would lynch.

Mastin is .... But the less good I feel about AP, the less good I feel about Mastin for reasons that would be hard to explain. Wait and see on this slot i guess.

This clears up alot. Your reads were

AP

and

Mastin

scum, everyone else town or null.

Why in the world did I not sheep you sooner?

IF ONLY I COULD FIGURE OUT HOW TO LINK PEOPLE OF THE SAME ALIGNMENT THEN I COULD BE AS GOOD AT THIS GAME AS PV IS.

Hah! I never said I was good. I'm saying if you don't show me, then chance of me listening are reduced.
And convincing

me

I'm scum will never happen.

Oh man compared to your reads those are bad because you reads are.................
FUCKING NONEXISTANT.

OK

HEY PV IN ONE SENTENCE DO YOU THINK YOU COULD MANAGE TO PUT DOWN WHO IS THE MOST LIKELY SCUM CANDIDATES IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW??? OR DO YOU JUST WANNA KEEP BASHING OTHER PEOPLES READS WITHOUT EVER COMMITING TO ANYTHING?

Probably Snow/ThAd right now, but that's not very fact based, as I already stated in detail (3066).

The only reads I'm currently bashing is your read on me (obviously), and possibly SiX (I don't know what your read on him is).

[PeregrineV]

OH MAN MY READS ON THE FIRST COUPLE PAGES OF THE DAY I REPLACED INTO ONLY CAUGHT 2/5 OF THE SCUMTEAM SO FAR.
FUCK ME IM SO BAD.



If you dont know what my read is on 6 is at this point.....

This is all useless.

We arent lynching 6 today.

Because hes prob town.

Snork... we're not shooting SiX. His posts are mostly shit, but hes still probtown at this point.

There's 5 remaining. A helpful post would give your position on them. A more helpful post would say why.

[PeregrineV]

SnowStorm- There was some mid game play that I read from SnowStorm as town. Since a lot of it was reaction to other players, I'll want to go over his iso again to see if those players are town or scum. Also, will look for specific Snowstorm mentions in the tri-iso.

Mastin calls him town in 90 based on 72.

Yates (217) calls Damon null in response to 122.

6.

Damon is ignoring everything that's happened in the game so far to focus on something alignment irrelevant

Yup. As stated in note 4, it's annoying but totally null. At least ThAd seems to be a little more focused on the

reaction

to being called out on it than the statement itself - which is a legit angle to pursue. Gant trying to paint the statement as being as scummy as he did in post 104 is the kind of "narrative" that I expect to see from scum trying to paint a statement as WAY more scummy than it actually is.

AP (334) responds to 122 also.

Ya, but townies focus on nulltells all the time. Its not scummy, just bad.

AP(457) attacks Talah read of Snow=not-town.

Mastin agrees with Rodgers/PA (Zdenek=town)(Snow=town)(BiPolerEgg=town)(Yates=town)(Matt=town)(Pere=Null-to-scum)

Which continues into the next. I don't understand the 4nx read. I don't see why Damon's just null and not scum. I also don't get the leaning scumread on me. Basically, the only reads I agree with are Zdenek, Snow, Chem, Yates (and he's a stronger-than-nulltown read), and Matt (same). And he takes back the Yates read the very next post. And the PV one, too. It's deeply, deeply concerning to me, considering that I was synching up fairly well overall with him earlier in the game.

AP questions a Snow lynch

I am a closet lynch all lurkers fanatic but I have repressed that impulse due to site meta

LOL. IDK why site meta is holding you back, usually people end up waffling all day and compromise lyncinhing random lurkers.

Just going to put this out there

vote: Mister Rogers

I would rather lynch bjc, but would consider Luca, maybe Aptil, maybe Snow. Probably not 4nxiety or DV or BiPolar out of the low posters.

Out of the high posters, cases require more validity. Only ones I'd really consider at this point are talah and pisskop.

Why snow? I cant actually recall anything hes posted which is probably a bad sign for him. If we're lynching lurkers I would support bjc (mostly policy) and aptil (latest post read a little forced, meh).
Talah is just blatantly scummy this game and I have mixed emotions about pisskop but have him a little on the scummy side of the fence and he seems like a lynch people would actually compromise on.

Aptil talking only about people with less post counts then him is pretty lazy and the "Nero has 4 posts but it may as well be 3 because ones a double" in particular made me .

Yates attacks SNows posting

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

I don't like this post. Like - at all. Please provide the points that caused YOU to read Talah scum. No one can defend against "read ISO." It's also lazy posting and gives you an easy excuse to jump on a leading wagon while providing no information about your alignment after a flip. Commit to your read.

This also bugs me:

we don't even need to go into particular arguments

,

talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments

. That's not how you play as town.

To the bold - You really REALLY do need to get into "particular arguments."
To the underlined - what would you expect to see from someone trying to defend against "read the ISO?"

AP 1408 has Snow as Probably Town.

Need to check what exactly Yates' snow read was. I thought he was not liking his posts, implying they were coming from scum.

Also... post 1412 was appreciated and has me feeling better about my Snow read.

More AP "reads" (1481)

This Luca wagon looks like the exact same shit. Probably someone on the Luca wagon early is scum (matt?) and Talah and someone else helping swing the luca lynch over Talah (RM/DV?).

The only vote on Talah Im extremely worried about is aptil. Snowstorm feels town to me and Rogers/PV are town.

More AP reads. Will need to check on evolution later.

Town: Nero, Peregrine, Anxiety, aptil (pretty town for vig claim)
Probably town, want to talk to them more: Yates, mastin
Town? Possibly stale reads, could be (probably is?) a scum here: Snork, PA, Snowstorm, Damon Gant
Meh: Pmatt, RM
Scummy: TheWayItEnds, Bipolar, ThAdmiral, DV

Yates on Snow

SnowStorm is playing a good game. I have him leaning Town but my confidence is shaky. When I start thinking I may be wrong, he responds with a strong post or good logic when pressed. I haven't played with him enough to know what this means but I don't remember him being this - logical? focused? organized? - in Rocky Horror.

This is starters... more later.

[PeregrineV]

What's the conclusion from those observations, PV? I don't really follow.

I haven't made any yet. These are the posts that I'm pointing out to myself/others.

I'll review them again for strength of meaning when I finish each player, and then strength against each other when all are done.

You're welcome to do the same.

[PeregrineV]

AP (1907) needs to sort Snow

@PA: Read on Snork and Snowstorm?

1917- Response to Damon about Snow, 1919 - A vote for snow (1918- Snork case on Snow)

AP (1965)- Snow is "caught scum for worn reasons"

What's the case on me, AP? Please explain it to me. Don't forget to mention what you find so compelling about it that made you vote me. And spare me the shitty clichés.

That you are concerned with having a case on you that you can refute , irony I know.

Anxiety is calling you scummy for being overly on the fence about him (and while I don't know if I agree with his conclusion about you trying to connect yourself there, I agree that your Anxiety read felt fake).

PA is voting you because of your hopping around from Talah/Luca at the end of the day and your attempt at wagoning Admiral looking like a weak attempt to not be off the ML wagon of the Day.

I didn't have a great reason for suspecting you when I voted, but your response to being wagoned reads desperate and OMGUSy.

AP attack on Snow (1973+1979)
Mastin sets up (2004) for the attack on Snow (2005)

AP reads list (2066)- Snow is scummy.
Interestingly enough 4xniety is now town, when I thought for sure AP was arguing for 4nxiety=scum. I know Mastin was(2004). Maybe some sort of tag-team thing.

Anyways, going to say done with Snow. Based on the attack style and based on Snow's own posting, pretty much leaving him in the town pile.

(Part of the issue with telling if it's bussing or not was the fact AP and Yates generally were accepted as town and not getting voted. And when they do deflect, it looks like it's from town wagons.

[PeregrineV]

Damon next

[PeregrineV]

Do you think that scum who are being generally townread are more likely to bus or more likely to townread their partners?

I would think it's the latter since being townread would give them the sense that they could have the town agree with their reads.

That's why I kind of want your conclusions from your other post about the trio's reads through the game.

Bussing is an attempt to gain town credit by "cathcing" scum. If you already have townreads on you from your play, it makes little sense to bus when you effectively are making it harder to win by doing so. So, I think townread scum are more likely to townread their partners. Or, at the least, give no read on them.

The conclusion I reached in 3154 is from all of the posting (3141+3154).

I welcome other interpretations, though.

[PeregrineV]

One of the reasons I do the linking is to make it easier for others to look up and for myself if I need to reference it again. I'll forget in a few days, so if asked it's all right here.

[PeregrineV]

@FFery-

Issues with Damon- Yates was a null read the whole game, with stated intent to research further, which never happened.

Daomn starts out scumreading Mastin, let's him off with Mastin self-meta by page 10 one post after this:

I never bring up my meta unless someone else brings up an erroneous version of it, like talah did. Regardless of alignment, I don't fight meta that's correct (even if the conclusion is wrong--yes, it is possible to be right on meta yet wrong on the read, because a town-me evolves [and even frequently incorporates successful elements of my scumplay into my towngame!] and a scum-me is capable of mimicking my townplay fairly accurately); regardless of alignment, I will shoot down meta that is wrong.

To give my most recently-completed towngame, look at Tales of Vesperia, the Wallduskkel hydra. It should be fairly obvious which posts are me and which came from Ald. It's not the best game to meta me off of (there are much better ones), but it's the most recently completed game, giving you the most contemporary meta I have.

Then, AP "corrects" Mastin

People's reaction to my first post has been stupid. Mastin's in particular seems like he just has a problem with just the way that I weighed my words. It's how I post - particularly if I'm making a post with quite a simple and concise point. Indeed, just in general, I don't find Mastin's reads to be very good. The certainty in them is obviously part of his meta, but I do disagree with pretty much all of it. I'm not sure if posting such disagreeable reads is part of his meta! I don't have any particularly strong feelings on his proposal for a limit of posting - but as others do, I guess that's not happening.

I spent quite a while staring at this post cause it felt important. Leaning town I think. Its waffly as fuck, but the train of thought reads genuine. Despite the lack of satisfying conclusion, its still making his opinion plain and its fairly followable.

That said, while talah's scum...

VOTE: Damon Gant.

...My scumread here is much, much stronger.

Mastin, get back on Talah TIA.

I'm willing to discuss Gant with you but I reaaally dont think hes scum?

Talah continues to OMGUS literally everything in 108.

Mastin next lets go mostly (469) and never brings up Gant again until 1733.

Sets up a Damon/Gant scum dichotomy, 1791 & 2004, but when he leaves 4nxiety, he moves to Snowstorm(!) wagon (2005).

Back to 4nxiety (2244), then BAM, Damon is town (2246) with never a mentiopn by Gant of this change in Mastin's read on him.

As far as I can find, despite continued Mastin attacks, Gant never defends against or refutes any of it. And they start working together on the Snow lynch (2042, 2077) which has both AP and mastin before 4xniety derails it.

Gant also joins Mastin on the TWIE wagon, but when Mastin comes up for a lynch, Gant never votes his null read (2631).

For AP, Gant is a town read, but by 1806 and 1907 Damon back to null, but town by 2066.

Yates never indicates a read on Gant, but dresses him down fully in 2 posts for gant calling Yates a lurker.

Result- Compared to Snow, this screams scum. He is town-read by scum when need be, but also set up in case bussing needs to take place.