NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Yates]

I'm V/LA due to a brew competition this weekend. I'll be active starting Monday.

That said... what is this?

Would also throw a vote BBMolla's way for scum-placing out.

Does BBMolla

actually

have a track record of replacing out of games as scum or are you being terrible for no reason? You are better than this.

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Yates]

Catch up post time. Alright, let's see where we are at...

1. Pere needs to get in here and respond to post 86. Because, you know, I'd throw a vote Pere's way for scum-ignoring the thread.

2.

1) What allies did I call for?

Mastin in post 15 stood out enough that I took note of it as well. And I guess Deas in your opening post but that one was a little less eggregious. I don't find this alignment indicative at this point but it's certainly an interaction worth pointing out in the event either of you flips scum.

3.

I have a proposal: larges these days have exploded in length. I am proposing we limit posts per person to be five a day, to see if we can get the shortest recent large game.

Worst proposal ever? Not sure. At

least

on par with leashing SK's, though.

4. RE: the fake scum claim...

I just hate this sort of behaviour. And then he follows it up with "It's just a joke, sheesh" acting all surprised people are jumping on him after he claimed scum.

I agree. I hate the fake scum claim as much as a self vote. I think you are overstating how scummy it is - since we were both in a game where Town did this - but it is annoying and frustrating and can be difficult to see past. Perfectly acceptable reason for an RVS vote. Not a great point to build a case on, though.

5. I'm not a fan of self-meta. But this is legit:

Seriously, every scum win of mine is through creating a narrative, painting the picture that I want it to. No, I am most certainly NOT a good orator as town, because I don't have the whole picture.

Serious question; did I ever tell you this is

exactly

how I meta read you when you aren't a hydra? You seem way more focused/calculating as scum.

6.

Damon is ignoring everything that's happened in the game so far to focus on something alignment irrelevant

Yup. As stated in note 4, it's annoying but totally null. At least ThAd seems to be a little more focused on the

reaction

to being called out on it than the statement itself - which is a legit angle to pursue. Gant trying to paint the statement as being as scummy as he did in post 104 is the kind of "narrative" that I expect to see from scum trying to paint a statement as WAY more scummy than it actually is.

7.

I think that Mister Rodgers is town. There's opportunistic scum and then there's the kind of town who plays on the offensive, "I want to win so badly!' mode.

I'm leaning in this direction as well.

8.

Maybe white-knighting isn't the right term. Chainsaw defending?

I was going to say "buddying is probably the right word," but I double-checked Z's ISO. Literally a 3 post in a row chainsaw defense, something random, then another chainsaw.

@Zdenek

- can you explain how you arrived at what must be an obv Town read on bjc that's so strong it lead you to the conclusions posted in posts 50, 51, 53, and 56?

Also, on a kind of related but unrelated point, can you explain post 144 to me? I mean, I agree with Chemist that Gant calling out a dude [projectmatt] for not posting that has only been in the game for an hour is pretty sketch. Do you disagree? What am I missing, here?

9.

Rach made posts questioning why someone else thought she was town. I think that's pretty town, as I don't see scum questioning that.

This is yucky. I'm pretty sure I've seen scum pretend to be confused about a Town read on their slot in MOST of the games I've played in. How many games have you played here?

10. This is the big one. I'm really confused as to why everyone is handing out Town reads for an obvious fake kill? I mean... look at this:

Spoiler:

Kill: BipolarChemist

Fuck this noise.

...

Man, you don't really get that I'm being sarcastic do you?

Well it doesn't matter cause you're dead and I won't have to worry about it any more.

Fair enough. At least I'm just VT, yo. I assume I can post until I'm actually dead? At least that's what I got from the rules.

Whelp

Unvote

Vote: Gant

^Ye sorry bro. Antagonizing you was fun, didn't really expect a vig

Well at least we know you're town.

Or do you?! MUAHAHA. No ya I'm town.

This all happened in the span of like 15 minutes. This actually looks

organic

to some of you???
Matt?

Unvote

Aww man, BipolarChemist is most likely town

ThAd

??

Ok I take back everything I said about zdenek. The fake-vig was golden. bipolar is now basically conf-town, that reaction doesn't look fake at all.

Gant??

Also, I like the fake vig - a lot.

What's weird is that I haven't been reading Zdenek as scum, yet I can't shake the feeling that the fake vig shot interaction looks super contrived. That bjc chainsaw defense is also standing out in a vacuum.

PE:

Notice how temporary it feels and like how it lacks force?

How "forceful" do you expect a day 1 vote to be? Would I not be allowed to change my mind on Pere if he comes in and Towns up his response to my question? I read the same post you did. It didn't strike me as particularly scummy.

[Yates]

I'll say yes and let you prove otherwise.

I didn't make the allegation - I don't have the burden of proof. That said, I think I've only played with BB 3 or 4 times and I'm pretty sure he's never replaced out [not that I can find, anyway]. Why this strikes me as particularly shitty is because you are basically accusing him of dishonorable play. You'd think he would have a reputation for it if it were actually true.

The sad truth is, Nero has first hand experience with being called scum for replacing out [by me - in the heat of an epic argument - in my more wreckless days]. And he was Town.

Someone claimed scum. Thoughts on that.

I gave my thoughts on that...

[@ThAd] I hate the fake scum claim as much as a self vote. I think you are overstating how scummy it is - since we were both in a game where Town did this - but it is annoying and frustrating and can be difficult to see past. Perfectly acceptable reason for an RVS vote. Not a great point to build a case on, though.

This all happened in the span of like 15 minutes. This actually looks organic to some of you???

What does the time frame have to do with it?

Everything? The timing makes it look orchestrated.

Your thought progression here makes no sense to me at all.

What? Why do you think there are at least three people asking you how you jumped to these conclusions? I wasn't even aware of the chainsaw until I went to correct ThAd, looked at your ISO, and realized you called EVERYONE that called bjc scum scum. I absolutely agree with Pere here:

I don't feel you can adequately assign alignments to reactions-to-bjc without assigning a bjc alignment...

In other words, you need to be Town reading bjc pretty hard to assume anyone calling him scum is scum. And this is something I pointed out to you and asked you about.

triplevote:Yates

Sad. But expected. Olive branch?

Just verifying, you read his post where he used the phrase, "Vote parking here until more people join the game" right?

On page 3? In a large normal? I guess it didn't bother me because a. half the player list had yet to vote b. I was one of those players and c. we still had pretty much the entire day phase ahead of us.

Do you still think this is a big deal?

Errrm, what? No vote? Meh. I guess there is only so much 1 guy can do at one time.

I was and continue to be voting Pere. For reasons...

Can't fault Nero here though.

That vote has nothing to do with our current game [at least I don't think it does]. I'll leave it at that.

...Bipolar sort of just jokes about it -

and the asking to see if he could post before the mod confirmed his "death" just

feels

reads genuine.

Ok, so here we now agree (with the appropriate edit).

Are you guys high? If you think scum have day talk, isn't that

exactly

something someone would do? Also, even if you think Bipolar is Town how does that in any way reflect on Zdenek's alignment? Like... scum never gambit? I mean... ever? I have way better examples but unfortunately they are on another site.

Plus, DV pretty much nails it here:

considering that the dayvig gambit has become so common that it's often used as a joke, I don't know if I trust his reaction.

There is a sort of bizarre dynamic here because he only has two votes and both people are voting him for a scummy reason

I'm voting for Pere. What's my scummy reason?

I am not liking Yates for it especially because he hasn't moved an inch while the "thread has exploded". Although again, a bizarre dynamic, but you haven't given him a reason to move either.

Oh. Well, that's just weak. You are condemning me for not unvoting Pere while I was away from the game? lol. Pere responded [kind of unsatisfactorally - as you note yourself] after my last post and before this one.

How about I join Yates and adovcate your lynch

Uh. How am I "advocating" a Pere lynch? My vote? You realize votes are scum hunting tools, right? My vote is on Pere specifically because I'm

in the process

of determining his alignment.

Meh, I consider both votes to be RVS based.

Part RVS, part reaction fish, part information required.

[Yates]

Nope, that's a lot of not matching my limited experience with him.

Welcome to the game. You should probably read it first.

Awe shucks... I can help you out with one thing:

Spoiler:

Based on his play in another large game I don't like him here.

The game I replaced into, you mean? You are assuming I play my replacement games [with mostly people I don't know] the same as the games I start in [with about 50% players that have some to great meta Yates knowledge] the same? Also, this means you are saying you know my alignment in the other game where I haven't flipped yet? That's some stellar meta knowledge, dude.

I think that if he's scum, then he's scum who claimed VT on one day one of a large game and will get busted any way.

So he *could be* scum but he's at least scum that claimed VT so whatevs?

So you think it should have happened faster?

Yes. It should have looked even more scripted. <- That's sarcasm, btw. I felt the need to point that out since you are missing a lot of obvious points lately.

Uhhh, Zd lets not pull bullshit gambits on people. There was nothing town about that reaction, ESPECIALLY the certainty that came with it... Every fucking fake hammer in the game ends up being on scum and they go "LOL IM VT WHATEVER" and then everyone calls them probtown. Fucks sake.

<3

Actually it makes perfect sense. You are trying to assign scum motivation to people's reaction to the bjc post whilst leaving the -exact- motivation up for interpretation.

<3 x2 - Welcome to the game!

I can't figure out which is worse Yates pushing daytalk or...

Quote me the post where ANYONE says they think scum have daytalk.

Are you trolling me right now?

You know

I was thinking similar veins about scum daytalk

.

I can't figure out which is worse Rogers pushing daytalk or pretending he didn't.

The BB issue is a non-issue and low hanging fruit. Its a great thing for scum to make noise about just as you seem to be doing. I would expect better from you.

A. Low hanging fruit is low hanging fruit because it's low hanging. But that's not really what I'm doing so who cares...
B. You didn't actually answer the question; What do you think my vote is about? This is kind of important.
C. Why would you expect "better" from me in particular? I have a history here with a few people that could actually make that statement [Pere, as it so happens, being one of them]. You don't make the cut [neither does pisskop, for that matter]. AND if you did expect "better" from me, as you say, then why wouldn't you acknowledge I'm very likely playing an angle here that you aren't seeing yet? Especially since you can't answer the question I asked in B...

I am not liking you.

That sometimes happens when I call scum out on their bullshit. *shrug* But then, you already know that about me, right?

YOU GO GURL!

Talk to me about Mister Rogers and Zdenek. I need to get out of tunnel mode while waiting for Pere to get in here.

[Yates]

It means he can never do the nk and there are a variety of power-roles that could potentially catch him if he's scum. It means that he has very little wiggle room to get out of anything.

I get it.
BipolarChemist claimed VT.
I understand what a VT claim means.
I also understand what a VT claim DOESN'T mean.
A VT claim DOESN'T mean that the person is auto magically vanilla OR town.
You seem to be assuming this.
Assuming this is bad.
That's the point.

If it happened slower and I would have thought that he was taking time to perfect lies.

If it happened over the course of a day or two it would look less contrived. This is a minor point in a big picture gut read.
1. I think fake vig shots are lamezors
2. Fake vig shots are pretty common and not alignment indicative of the faker.
3. Fake vig shots are pretty common and not alignment indicative on the target.
4. Fake vig shots are about on par with fake hammers in terms of information - ie. none.
5. The whole gambit happened in a short period of time almost without interruption.

Let's look at this a different way...
When is the last time you saw a fake vig shot catch scum?
OR - since this will give you are larger pool - when is the last time you saw a fake hammer catch scum?
Cripes, in ALL the REAL hammers you have seen - in what % of those hammers [excluding end game] did the scum just give up the ghost and go "awe shucks - you caught me. Good job!"

THIS is my point. Some of you [you specifically] are acting like your WIFOM bomb of nullness is some sort of game changer. THAT is what I can't wrap my head around.

PE: Sorry, mod.

[Yates]

What makes you think, that I think that it is some sort of game-changer? I don't think that, by the way, it's just strange that's the impression that you have.

Probably the fact you immediately dropped your pursuit after a VT claim.

Well at least we know you're town.

We were both there typing at once.

Right. To me a normal conversation looks like what we are doing now. When there's just a back and forth between two people over a super short period of time? It stands out.

This is probably the first time I've seen someone suggest that interactions taking place over a longer period of time seem more legitimate.

It's a theory. Again, because it stands out. I'm trying to justify why my "gut" reaction to reading that exchange was "this looks forced" and this is just one of the variables feeding it.

You dropping the focus off Chemist entirely is another. I don't know if it's because you are scum buddies and you feel like you got the Town to read you both as Town as a result of your gambit or if YOU are scum and just don't want to pursue a VT since you'd rather nail a PR. I also wouldn't expect you - as Town - to just assume Chemist is Town because he claimed VT as if that isn't the most common fake scum claim ever. I don't really like any of these scenarios and I don't understand the game play here.

What I find equally interesting is the number of people that all of a sudden were like "welp - I guess Zdenek and Chemist are Town now" when there is ZERO precident/reason for that change of heart ["game changer"]. In case you didn't notice, I've been asking for reasons why and have yet to see anything remotely persuasive.

Ok. This is kind of amazing because both you and Pere are playing at me the same way. It is kind of confusing actually.

The thing is, I'm not playing you. I'm playing Pere. Why you are in the middle is the mystery. The fact he isn't posting bothers me only in the sense that I'm not getting the information I need from him [and maybe not using my vote in a more productive way given new evidence] but he isn't posting anywhere so...?

Yes I did leave that post out there. But nowhere do I say I think scum have daytalk.

I was going to requote and prove you wrong. But okay, I see what you were saying in 276. You were saying you agreed "that scum don't necessarily have daytalk." I was thinking you and talah were saying Pere and ThAd *DID* have day talk. That's why it stood out to me.

Fine. Ill meta a bit and get back to your in-game contents.

On the plus side, I found myself shaking my head in agreement a lot to your Rogers read.

The point is DID THIS FAKE VIG SHOT WORK. Specifically this case, not across the board generalizations

Are you being serious right now? The point is

you can't determine if this fake vig shot worked without taking personal and/or site meta into account!

WTF, dude. Meta is all about "in general THIS is what I would expect." On this site, scum TYPICALLY don't just admit they are scum after being fake vigged, fake hammered, or REAL hammered. I asked you to show me where they have in one of the first two scenarios since

you HAVE TO BELIEVE scum would claim scum

if you are going to call a VT claim Town. OR I ask you to call upon your experience here on this site and to consider ALL of the lynches you have been party to or witnessed and ballpark estimate the number of times even REAL hammered scum has claimed scum after the hammer [again - outside of end game] because MY experience is that it's probably on the order of 1-2%. This is why fake vigs are A. lame B. look contrived and C. TELL US NOTHING ABOUT EITHER PLAYER'S ALIGNMENT. Pretending it does is dumb or fake.

[Yates]

@Yates: You are using generalizations to say, "naww, this can't be"

Yeah. I think I'm done talking to you. No one is really this obtuse.

*EDIT: I'm glad to see 459. I was about to lose my nut [and actually voted you].

You realize that daytalk isn't the only way this could have been orchestrated, right? And that this could have been preplanned in twilight - as many gambits are? That said; daytalk would certainly be a facilitator. As would a neighborhood...

And I didn't really take a "statistical approach" to explain why ZD-Chem was null. I just don't know how else to make this point more obvious outside of "sniff test."

Also, you are aware of the Town motivation, yes? I pretty much touched on it in my response to Zdenek.

The object was for the replacement to come in already under suspicion/pressure (such as it was) and see how they reacted (if at all).

Fair enough. I kinda like it, actually. What do you think about pisskop's replace in?

But, good to see the passion.

You knew I wasn't going to let an "out of game reasons" vote slide.

I think hes been lurking.

Lurking? I'm pretty sure I've posted every day. My post count isn't huge but my content per post should speak for itself. Is there something you think I'm ignoring/hiding [which is why I assume most people lurk]?

Why do you think it is a fake scum claim?

I'm not saying he isn't scum [obvs]. I'm saying he is now claiming it was a fake scum claim as per:

So my question here is why the above fake-claim/joke is okay while mine isn't?

I watch the follow-up posting for signs of scum-claim followup or town posting, since any of that can alleviate the above crappy RVS.

I agree with all of this. I'm not one of the people claiming bjc is scum for his fake claim. I said I don't like the play - and I don't for all the reasons I've outlined in my previous post. BUT I also told ThAd [who is the one calling it scummy] "I think you are overstating how scummy it is." I also went on to say "Perfectly acceptable reason for an RVS vote. Not a great point to build a case on, though." It's all in post 217, which you quoted. If you're asking for my

read

on it? Null. *shrug* He hasn't really posted since defending himself. Actually, he more defended his action than himself by trying to equate it to another joke. So there's not much to go on here. I feel like there's too much energy going into these null tells [fake scum claim and fake vig]. I'm guessing we'll find a scum driver on at least one.

So, my take on the ENTIRE DAYVIG scenario:
Creates a null-read on Zdenek (as in, it does not affect how I read him either way).

Creates a null-read on Chemist (as in, it does not affect how I read him either way).

Amen. Amen. Amen.

UNVOTE: PereV

Especially given the difficulty I in separating his scum and town games to begin with.

I will take this as a compliment! Tell you what; Nero, Pere, Mastin, Rach, ThAd, and AP have all been scum with me, against me, or as mod for me. Some of them have seen me a LOT. If one of them raises a meta concern? I'll address it.

He has one vote (mine) and 9000 people townreading him.

You know what?

I think I agree with this.

VOTE: bjc

@bjc

- Is voting for you the only way to extract content?

[Yates]

Are you voting me because you think I'm scummy or just to be stupid?

Are you lurking because you're scum or just stupid?

And if I'm content with lurking?

Ohh...

How do you make the distinction between "intentionally" lurking and "simply" lurking?

Are you familiar with the Beetlejuice tell? Also, to ask this question a different way, How do

you

make the distinction between "intentionally" lurking and "simply" lurking?

While I'm not voting bjc purely for lurking, I'm okay with having my vote on a lurker. Do you have a problem with that?

Vote: Aptil

Guess not.

Out of the high posters, cases require more validity. Only ones I'd really consider at this point are talah and pisskop.

I would consider a pisskop scum case.

He's not inaccessible and has a rather 'fuck you'-ish attitude which I like.

What do you like about the "fuck you -ish attitude?" Do you think scum don't get "fuck you -ish?"

I also found this statement to be surprising because I agreed with this:

Oh and the last couple of posts from matt made my brain feel like it was out of sync with the universe.

What bigger fish like Aptil??

Why is your push here so fake??????????????

Do you have information that Luca really *is* having RL issues which are affecting his ability to post - anything at all?

Don't even go there. I will see you hanged if you continue along this path.

List of people I consider to be lurkers:
SnowStorm, aptil, Rach, bjc,

Yates

Another one accusing me of this?? WTF... Anyone calling me a "lurker" needs to check themselves. I have more CONTENT than you, Gant.

Its not much, but I have nero as a townlean for his reaction to my post.

Wow. Am I missing some meta thing between you two??

[Yates]

Yate's analysis is so completely fake and devoid of substance that it hurts.

Is it "devoid of substance" because you can't answer either of the following?

Are you familiar with the Beetlejuice tell? Also, to ask this question a different way, How do you make the distinction between "intentionally" lurking and "simply" lurking?

Or is it because you have no explanation as to why you pretend to be calling people out for lurker voting [even though no one is actually voting bjc for being a lurker] while voting a lurker?

I eagerly anticipate your response.

I will admit that it may be harsh to call you a lurker... it's just that everyone else is drowning out your posts.

It's more than just harsh, though, it's wrong. I have no control over other people hyper posting. I can start breaking up each of my points into seperate posts - like some others seem to be doing - if you would like for me to clutter up the thread in a large normal?

Or would that also be a problem for you?

Yesterday I looked at the ISO of literally every person in the game except yourself [Mister Rogers] (because heavens knows

going through your ISO is going to be a chore

).

And as to this gem...

...your posts may be long but they're packed with nothingness.

Is this really coming from someone that *JUST* posted this...?

...honestly, most of my thoughts are still going by gut

Now if I were scum, I'd be doing things very differently. I'd be chasing after someone like pisskop, talah or even you because:
a) It would keep people like you who think voting for lurkers is scummy off my back

So... you're saying you know Mister Rogers is Town? And one of pisskop/talah is your scum buddy?? Good to know.

However, with regards to strategy, you just seem to have an odd idea of what experience does to a player. Beginners are the ones more likely to follow a strict set of "mafia theory". Experienced players know what theory is good, what is bad, and when to break all the rules dictated by this "theory".

This is pretty much the only thing you've said recently that I agree with. And it's a general mafia discussion point that you never bring back around and apply to the game state or to determine the alignment of a person. Scum 101? [See what I did there?]

[Yates]

I'm an Oracle.

I loled.

But can you answer my question from yesterday, please?

[Yates]

Hopefully the situation will be sorted by tomorrow .

Please hurry it along as quickly as possible. I would really like to see you come in here and Town up the joint so absolutely that Matt chokes on it. Thanks in advance.

[Yates]

Which was?

Well... really I'd like for you to respond to the points in post 684 that pertain to you.

[Yates]

Well the other two points are you commenting about my take on matt and not liking my call on AP.

I was wondering about your "fuck you -ish" attitude statement, actually. And you used that to claim you had a "Townish" read on bjc for displaying it. I just found that odd.

The matt thing was just when you glaze over when a post's meter seems slow?

Huh? This isn't AT ALL what I thought you were saying. Can you instead just give me your Matt read?

The other thing - err I don't even know what you're getting at.

You started down this path of "how do you know it's RL issues? Maybe he's faking it!" Don't use out of game excuses for a read. I burned Pere on this earlier. It's super scummy.

Also, drunk trolling is best trolling. Though I'm not realy trolling you, am I? More like I saw you had recently posted, ignored my post as it pertains to you, and had some questions...

[Yates]

I've got my eye on you.

I thought you had your eye on EVERYONE...

And no...no I am not saying that. I'm not sure I can let that one go - you've been playing mafia too long to be dumb enough to even suggest that - particularly the point that you seem to think I have "let slip" that Mister Rogers is town, which is just laughably stupid.

Reaction Test: failed. YOU have been playing mafia too long to be dumb enough to think that was an ACTUAL scum slip accusation. If I were scum I'd push that point and call it a "slip" until you were hanged. Point of that post, though, is that it's dumb to tell people what you would do as scum and to try to pretend that the fact you aren't doing that is why you are town even though you just showed that you are aware of your scum meta and could therefore alter your meta accordingly.

Now *I* have my eye on *YOU.*

[Yates]

noted post is noted.

I note that you have noted noted post - and edited to remove context.

...you didn't explain at all how my reaction gives you any idea about my alignment.

You're right. I insinuated - which isn't the same as an explanation. So let me explain... I would have expected you to either shrug it off or ask me my intent. I wouldn't expect you to focus on it as a valid point unless you were feeling guilty about it - which is what you did. For an example of a Town reaction to something like this, take a look at how I responded to pisskop when he replaced in and voted me for "meta reasons."

Why don't you ask piskop or aptil about him...

Well, aptil isn't really contributing yet due to "internet problems" and my read on pisskop isn't on the right side of null. Also, I don't really care too much about his meta since he isn't posting enough that anyone should be able to meta read him. Also also, as I've said before, screw meta.

I'm genuinely interested in what you thought I would say.

I *thought* you were saying that he was posting bad and failing at logic - and THAT is what was making your "brain feel like it was out of sync with the universe."

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Everything you said after this could really apply to ANY lurker. My point is that you shouldn't make it ABOUT the out of game reason unless you somehow KNOW someone is lying. If Mastin said his grandmother was dying and couldn't post but you saw him at a craps table in Vegas drunk posting in another thread? That's one thing. But don't challenge the excuse itself. Personally, I didn't post why my post count has been a little lower than usual because it's nobody's business that I was asked to help a film crew shooting a commercial at work. And I'm not going to go through the whole process of uploading video of the shoot to youtube and posting a link as proof because screw that. You see how questioning an out of game thing can get distracting and out of hand?

How many scum do you think are in the lurkers?

Probably fewer than there are among the more active players, actually. I appreciate the impulse, though, and it's part of what's driving my vote on bjc. Of the lurkers, he's the only one that beetlejuiced and then used his "fuck you -ish" attitude to act like he doesn't have to post. Well... okay but I guess that means I don't have to unvote him. *shrug*

Can I just ask placidly what kind of person you think is not aware of their scum meta, and adjusting accordingly?

What does this have to do with what I said to Gant? Because the portion of the post you quoted has nothing to do with the question you asked me or anything I have said or even hinted at.

bjc has requested replacement.

This is annoying.

UNVOTE: bjc

I am not familiar with the beetlejuice tell.

It's when you call a lurker [or their attacker] scum and all of a sudden they post out of nowhere. Case in point; bjc hadn't posted in over 24 hours. Pere was driving the bjc wagon. Rogers calls Pere scummy for pushing bjc without actually scum hunting. An hour later bjc is suddenly on to agree with a point about the person driving his wagon [Pere]. Basically, it shows that the person is reading the thread and just not posting. In other words, a beetle juice tell illustrates intentional lurking.

TBH, it's kind of a null tell BUT it borders on scummy just enough that it's one of those things you can throw at a person to see how they respond to it.

o.o bjc placed out.

i hope its a scumtell.

Is this a joke or serious?

Let me do this while I wait...
VOTE: pisskop

[Yates]

[Yates]

And I wish Yates had a comment about me or the events surrounding me, but there's alot going on in this game sooo maybe just paranoia there?

Oh. You're playing this game?

I wish 4nxi3ty had a comment about me or the events surrounding me, but there's a lot going on in this game sooo maybe just paranoia there?

[Yates]

but there's alot going on in this game

Alright. That was a little snarkier than I intended. Is there anything specific you want me to comment on? I really haven't been paying you much attention or you haven't made any posts worth commenting on so...

[Yates]

reaction to nero?

Nero being Nero. Completely null. He takes more than a day to read.

Wait. Aren't you doing exactly that? Saying what you would do as scum? See bolded.

lol. What's with you and pisskop jumping on that? Yes. That's what I was doing. But in a mocking way. And that was the point. To show him how silly it was. Why is it *he* seems to be the only one that got it? Context people! Or pisskop/ThAd scum team??

Serious question - since I've been asked about it twice - did

anyone else

think that statement required explanation?
For reference

Spoiler:

Now if I were scum, I'd be doing things very differently

. I'd be chasing after someone like pisskop, talah or even you because:
a) It would keep people like you who think voting for lurkers is scummy off my back

So... you're saying you know Mister Rogers is Town? And one of pisskop/talah is your scum buddy?? Good to know.

And no...no I am not saying that. I'm not sure I can let that one go - you've been playing mafia too long to be dumb enough to even suggest that - particularly the point that you seem to think I have "let slip" that Mister Rogers is town, which is just laughably stupid.

Reaction Test: failed. YOU have been playing mafia too long to be dumb enough to think that was an ACTUAL scum slip accusation.

If I were scum I'd push that point and call it a "slip" until you were hanged.

Point of that post, though, is that it's dumb to tell people what you would do as scum and to try to pretend that the fact you aren't doing that is why you are town even though you just showed that you are aware of your scum meta and could therefore alter your meta accordingly.

I really dislike pisskop right now.

Glad I unvoted your slot. Guess who I'm voting for RIGHT NOW.

[Yates]

Wait a minute? you are scum reading [Nero] cause he uses a Southern slang term for the plural you?

??? You may want to reread that post. He's saying that Nero is acknowledging that he's played with a lot of us and saying *WE* should know he'll yell about whatever he thinks needs to be yelled about. What's with people skim reading the game?

Yates is putting faith in you

Ha! No. I'm not putting ANY faith or trust in Nero. I am, however, saying that he takes time to read. The thing about Nero is that he will either sort out his supspects if Town or will expose himself as scum. There are enough people in this game familiar with his meta [as you probably know based on your focus on his "y'all" post] that he won't make it very far as scum.

Okay - now that I made the "skim" statement I have to admit that I totally skimmed over this Talah-Snork-MR stuff. And I'm pretty sure I didn't miss anything important. My thoughts are pretty much summed up here:

WTF are you all arguing about?

What is the point of this discussion?

I'll check in tonight. Looks like the Luca wagon is picking up steam. Still not sure why but whatever. Looks like the pisskop town reads are picking up. This makes me sad.

[Yates]

You know who reads SK?

Are you town aligned neighborhood encryptor?

Noted. I googled "things tha make you go hmm" and thought this picture pretty much says it all:

I get this and Yates, I mean c'mon its a valid query.

What does this mean?

You ignored Rogers when he did it.

Show me. I must have missed it.

This looks like bullshit.

So do your catch up posts. *shrug*

I don't remember who was picking on RM for making "lurker" excuses with the sinus stuff but this stood out to me:

@RachMarie-Mayor-Mod

- are we able to have a votecount tally and timer please?

Was going to do it last night but was too tired and crashed instead. VC coming up....Rach

Because she was the MOD. lol

Ill try to read upon monday, but tuesday afternoon at latest

How gracious of you to offer to be available 72 hours before deadline. I don't understand why anyone is town reading this.

[Yates]

I think you'd better ask PK that sir and tbf, that is quite long overdue, in fact.

I legit have no idea what either of you are talking about. Is it post 704? Because I thought that was to the thread.

@pisskop - were you expecting a response to post 704 from me or the rest of the game? Because I'm pretty sure you can guess what *MY* answer is going to be.

[Yates]

@MR and Yates : What is your opinion on DG ?

I've had some interactions with him. Feel free to glean what you can from my ISO. More importantly, what's YOUR opinion on DG? I'm assuming there's a reason you are focusing on him?

PE: That's a poor excuse. More than half the game isn't buying the talah case or he would have been lynched by now. What SPECIFICALLY is it about the talah case that is so obvious that it also incriminates DG?

[Yates]

That last line just screams look how town i am , i want a lynch today

I agree that it is superfluous to speculate about a no lynch scenario but do you actually think that's scummy? Especially given the lack of activity by certain players [*cough* you *cough*] and the announced V/LA's of others [Zdenek, Mastin, pisskop] that will actually put us up against the clock?

don't care for lowhangingfruit arguments,

fruit is fruit, and you eat it before it goes bad

.

If Rogers wasn't replacing out I'd make this my new sig.

there's nothing necessarily wrong with trying to hide your alt.

As someone recently pointed out to me in another game, the reason someone creates an alt is because they want to be read with fresh eyes. I got spanked for asking someone who their alt was because I don't think about that stuff. Also, these alts are created BEFORE the roles go out - otherwise you could just look at the sign up thread. So there really is

no correlation between alts and alignments

.

Being attacked isn't a valid excuse for not producing his normal town ISO

Disagree. Getting tunneled sucks. Also, screw meta.

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

I don't like this post. Like - at all. Please provide the points that caused YOU to read Talah scum. No one can defend against "read ISO." It's also lazy posting and gives you an easy excuse to jump on a leading wagon while providing no information about your alignment after a flip. Commit to your read.

This also bugs me:

we don't even need to go into particular arguments

,

talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments

. That's not how you play as town.

To the bold - You really REALLY do need to get into "particular arguments."
To the underlined - what would you expect to see from someone trying to defend against "read the ISO?"

RachMarie has done fuck all and when questioned returns with the fact that she has a headache.

So YOU were the one!

I don't remember who was picking on RM for making "lurker" excuses with the sinus stuff but this stood out to me:

@RachMarie-Mayor-Mod

- are we able to have a votecount tally and timer please?

Was going to do it last night but was too tired and crashed instead. VC coming up....Rach

Because she was the MOD.

If I were scum would I play it as badly as this?

I don't know you. Yes? Is that the answer? Or maybe if you were scum you would play this badly so you could ask us this question? If I have to choose between lynching Talah and lynching you, guess which one I'm going to lynch...

Closer to the deadline I will probably get scumhunting

, although Talah looks a decent bet for now

because she's the best chance I have at continuing to not contribute and stay alive

Why would you wait until "closer to deadline?" Congratulations - that's the dumbest thing said in this thread to date. Also, FTFY.

Dude, if you're town, by not scumhunting you are frankly playing contrary to your win condition, and that is

against the rules

.

FTFY. Now I agree 100%. The fact Luca hasn't been replaced makes me think maybe he *IS* playing to his wincon...

When I find out who is scum, you will be the first to know

How do you plan on doing this when you JUST SAID you won't bother scum hunting until closer to deadline??

I

may elaborate later

but for now will Unvote

You *MAY* elaborate later? WTF...

that is definitely scummy of you going for the low hanging fruit

STOP WITH THE LOW HANGING FRUIT!!

VOTE: Luca Blight

A little motivation to get scum hunting a bit sooner than later. And, you know, low hanging fruit of the loom.

Spoiler:

[Yates]

let me know if there's anything in particular you want me to address

Woot! Reads on pisskop and Zdenek, please!

[Yates]

I want to know if other people see it or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there

Are you suggesting that he defends and/or ignores Talah throughout his ISO?

If so, why aren't you equally concerned about Pere's chainsaw post?

I'm not going to defend Nero - since he is more than capable of defending himself - but I can tell you why *I* switched to Luca. Pere calling out people for consolidating at the end of the day is... not great. Pere pretending like Luca's posts since coming out of hiding haven't read as scum is... even less great. Given the choice between talah and Luca? I'm lynching Luca every day and twice on Sundays.

@Pere - and what do you think of the people that switched to the Talah wagon recently? SnowStorm, Aptil, yourself - you've all voted Talah since page 48. In fact - YOU are the one that made talah a leading wagon based on no new information, aren't you? I say this because post 1178 is your talah vote and it appears to be meta based. Are you trying to say that talah's meta - which was brought up EARLY btw - was suddenly strong/convincing enough to get you to abandon your case on Mastin? See how this works? Equally effective for either wagon.

[Yates]

I don't see what is so interesting about PV wanting to look at the counter-wagoners to wagon hes voting for.

He gave this face to summarize his list of people that moved their votes to Luca:

Notice he specifically pointed out later movers? That's not the same as looking at the counter wagon. That's an accusation. I'm wondering how he can raise a concern without knowing the alignments of either player. This pinged hard.

[Yates]

I dont think its scummy.

Well... it's not Townie. Anyway, I'd rather he replied since this is about his post and his logic as opposed to something you might think he's thinking.

[Yates]

I'm kind of digging the Yates-scum respect/fear. Sadly, I may have to play my next game as an alt to shake that since I'm not sure everyone's reading me based on my actual posts...

I'm only bringing this up because I have nothing else to talk about while waiting for Luca to come up with his fake claim.

[Yates]

Also... post 1412 was appreciated and has me feeling better about my Snow read.

[Yates]

how likely do ya all think it is that we have one large scum team or two scum teams and how likely do you think it is we have a SK?

We have 20 players.

This isn't even worth entertaining until tomorrow at the earliest.

Quick drop in

Response to post 1390 when you get a chance, please? TYIA

VOTE: APTIL

I think you should put Luca at L-1 and advance the game if you expect anyone to listen to you.

What makes you think this is in anyway relevant to Luca's alignment?

Shhh... I'm trying to scum hunt here.

Yates also asked you about this and don't really remember you responding to it

For reference:

I want to know if other people see it or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there

Are you suggesting that he defends and/or ignores Talah throughout his ISO?

If so, why aren't you equally concerned about Pere's chainsaw post?

PE:

[Luca's] probably scum and talah is bussing so she earns towncred for his scumflip

So if you think this and ThAd won't do it, why not put Luca at L-1? Don't you need a Luca flip anyway to prove this theory?

#Yates- I saw you say something, but I'll be back later.

Grazi.

[Yates]

What makes you think this is in anyway relevant to Luca's alignment?

Absolutely nothing. Of the two leading wagons I felt like talah was townier or at least more useful. So really I was just pressuring for this...

I am also a VT

I don't know how convincing it is given all the Town cred given to Chemist when he claimed VT but at least we have a claim out of a distracting slot.

And giving up a

pisskop

wagon that no one believes is not hard.

Edited for my thoughts. ^^^

I was actually assuming your talah vote was also a pressure vote so I didn't understand why you were staying on talah when you had the opportunity to put Luca at L-1.

And I think that if talah is scum, and Luca is scum, that the scumteam would rather save talah than Luca.

I'm assuming you are basing this off the wagon momentum? Possible. But that would only be if both were scum. If this is the case, your "chainsaw" post makes sense for looking for the busser.

[Yates]

Also, ThAd's vote on aptil is at best, really odd. I didn't like that.

Are you thinking Luca-ThAd scum team? talah-ThAd scum team? What? I have to double check but my impression of ThAd is that he'd bus his mother.

pisskop wagon was 3.

Fair enough. Still, it had no traction. I would still be overjoyed to get pisskop lynched but he's conveniently V/LA.

[Yates]

Talah? Self vote? Really? AND an early claim? Le lame...

I don't know why we are talking about other wagons. We have three

VT

claims on the table. THREE. Are we playing "let's see how many claims we can get in one day until we find a PR" mafia? Screw that noise.

We can talk about pisskop, ThAd, Aptl, and Snork TOMORROW.

Talah or Luca. Pick one. Sheesh.

[Yates]

Why am I even in this list?

This a million times, especially bolded.

Snork scum

.

[Yates]

OMG. How is this day still ongoing??

[Yates]

I'm not town reading Yates, which worries me.

Worries

you

?? You're the one I expected to come in and have me as obv Town. Which would have been awesome given you are a replacement and would know I couldn't have been molding my meta to fit your expectation of my Town game. Also REALLY would have helped with my pisskop read.

[Yates]

Guys, I'm going to be LA for a bit. Had a little accident involving a mandolin making breakfast this morning. I have what's called a "partial amputation" of my right thumb and can't really type all that well. I'm reading and will post but my posts will need to be short and sweet.

[Yates]

@Snork

- I love post 1790 right up until the NKA. I see others have addressed this but yeah - NKA is p-much a wifom bomb.

I'm surprised to see Chemist in the Town list. Can you explain? Other than that, I like your Town list. [oh - bc of his return post? meh]

Also, pisskop slot [TheWayItEnds] is scum. I'm putting matt in the scum pile too.

I might come around on ThAd scum but I want him to be Town. I still have him in my "to be sorted" pile with mastin, Pere and Nero.

SnowStorm is playing a good game. I have him leaning Town but my confidence is shaky. When I start thinking I may be wrong, he responds with a strong post or good logic when pressed. I haven't played with him enough to know what this means but I don't remember him being this - logical? focused? organized? - in Rocky Horror.

I think PA is going to help me read the Rogers slot so I'm not voting there.

how likely do ya all think it is that we have one large scum team or two scum teams and how likely do you think it is we have a SK?

I wouldn't rule out a limited shot SK or some kind of odd-night vs even-night scum team. But I'm inclined to believe Aptil. While I don't do NKA I also don't think scum would waste a shot on a potential easy mislynch. [then again - what an awesome play for an SK to earn an obv-Town read!] I'm playing as if we have one scum team because I don't think it matters.

I'm going to:
VOTE: TheWayItEnds

Looking forward to seeing death or contribution from this slot.

[Yates]

Where are matt and pere? Or even bpc, for that matter?

Once again I'm not liking either wagon and I feel like scum is sitting back and laughing. TWIE is exactly where I'd expect to find scum on the RM wagon. Now I have to go look closer at 4nx.

[Yates]

Finally something worth discussing!

Micro 264, Resistance Mafia.

What am I looking for here? That mastin ISO looked like stream of consciousness drivel. Looks pretty different from this game but mastin hasn't been posting here so I suppose there's still time... Anyway, are you calling mastin scum or just noting a pattern? You pretty much nailed her from the word go in that one so color me intrigued.

I'm also interested in the TWIE reads. Something isn't right there. And it's been both players in that slot.

PE: I read that as surprise trip to India at first - lol

[Yates]

I find the amount of town reads on her [Rach] pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

What? I don't understand what you are saying here.

[Yates]

if she kept playing like this she'd be bus material.

I sort of see what you are saying. I'm not sure that's how it plays out irl. I'll have to check some games to see if this bears out. Is this a new theory or something you've seen elsewhere?

I think pisskop was the scum off both wagons.

Agreed. ^5

Pisskop was inactive. I don't think he necessarily chose to be off both wagons.

Pretty sure he was active for the majority of it. Plus, have you READ his ISO? I've been scum reading that slot since Day 1. I realize TWIE can't answer for that but he has also been playing pretty terrible since replacing in. No solid reads. No scum hunting effort. No attempt to understand the game state. Bleh. It looks like someone trying to hide and - ironically - stands out like a sore thumb [no pun intended!].

In all seriousness I guess the case for town-thad is that no one has been able to really quantify why they think I'm scum, or if they have reasons they are weak/invalid

So... scum caught for the wrong reasons?

[Yates]

In other news pisskop stopped posting on page 52 before he was replaced.

Not posting is not the same as not reading. He was posting for 5 days after his last post here. Are you going to try to tell me that you don't think he even bothered to READ this game while posting in others??

7 people were still not on either of the leading wagons. With his vote that he hasn't moved since page 29.

The first part of this is fair. I checked and Talah had 7 votes when pisskop ACTUALLY stopped posting [March 24]. The second part, though, is actually part of his scum case. That's a vote park. Vote parking is scummy.

And seriously if the case against me is that one of the 2 people off the scum wagon HAS to be scum

Yeah. Not why I'm voting your slot but it is likely and just more fuel for the fire.

My actual reason for voting pisskop is for his misreps and horrible play. Feel free to just look at the exchanges he had with me in ISO if you want the short short version of why I hate your slot. You have done nothing to improve it and I see no reason not to see it lynched.

Yates, I know you're on V/LA, but when you're able can you give me a rundown more specifically on why you think TWIE is the best lynch for today?

I'm actually able to type a little better from work and on fewer pharmaceutical grade pain killers so my activity should be somewhat better. I just have to remember to hit the space key with my index finger instead of my thumb!

The bottom line is that I HATED pisskop. Please see above. I'm not reading TWIE independent of his predecessor.

[Yates]

This feels more like indignant town to me.

TBD Point of that statement was to point out it was a poor defense.

THIS feels like scum upset at being called out for the wrong reasons.

That was so obviously grasping at straws that I didn't even bother to comment. Plus, that "reads list" is pretty much the "Town Consensus List." Way to stick your neck out and have an original opinion.

... lurking like pisskop... the defense really looks like an attempt to make mastin look bad instead.

Do I have to be the one to say it? Fine - cognitive dissonance. TWIE's claiming his slot isn't scummy because his predecessor was lurking to the point it got replaced. Okay. Might buy it. But then he says Mastin *is* scum for lurking even though - of the two - MASTIN was the one that posted a V/LA in the game. Frankly, Mastin should probably replace out [I know that probably comes across as cold but she's got more important crap to deal with]. Still, you can't have two conflicting standards when it comes to activity and how it reflects upon someone's alignment.

[Yates]

PV all have essentially nothing worth commenting on today.

What's your opinion on PereV? I bring this up only because he is posting elsewhere but not here.

[Yates]

Check it

Last post in this game: Tue Mar 18, 5:48pm
Last post on site: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:39 pm

That's 5 days of activity onsite between Mar 18 and Mar 23 without a contribution here.

[Yates]

To clarify the above - I'm not saying pisskop hasn't site-flaked. He obviously has. I'm saying he game-flaked before he site-flaked. Still, as mentioned above, that has nothing to do with my read. It's just an illustration of why that's a poor defense of the slot.

[Yates]

So it was.

[Yates]

Can we pretend I never argued that point? I'm going to blame the pain killers.

[Yates]

The Yates town that I know and hate is way more active and wants to be in the forefront of the game.

^^ That's old Yates meta - and I did that as both alignments. Look at my last few completed games. It's actually BECAUSE OF our last game together that I made the conscious decision to be less of a spammer.

Speaking of our last game together:

Fake derp is a big part of his scum game

First, that was real derp, but that's beside the point. You accused me of this in that game as well [you used "derp" a LOT in that game]. I guess I should call you scum for not faking a QT result on me? The counter is you are scum reading me and PA - whom you called a scum team in that one as well. So at least your inability to read my slot is consistent. Plus I have a Town read on PA so...

[Yates]

@Yates- How about YOUR read on me?

Cards on the table - You're one of three people I'm

not

reading, so I'm looking for help. I

want

you to be Town but you haven't posted anything to make me think you are. I really need to see more out of your slot before I can make an alignment determination.

Yates: Honestly no idea what to think of this, and the subject of my next detailed ISO read.

Looking forward to it.

What I want from you is any indication that you're aware that scum teams usually have multiple members and you don't appear to be looking anywhere but my slot.

My votes tend to be more nimble towards the end of the day. Just because I'm most suspicious of your slot doesn't mean I'm not reading the game. If someone comes along with a more convincing case, I'll bite. Even a cursory glance at my ISO should be sufficient evidence to prove I *AM* looking elsewhere.

And also I never said Mastin was scum for lurking.

Yeah. I need to reread your slot. It's possible I made that assumption based on something you said.

[Yates]

I was getting mega frustrated in GoW mafia cause I thought you had some sort of vendetta against me, so this is mostly me getting frustrated that you won't consider me being town, but eh.

That was me in How I Banged Your Mother Mafia... It's like - he gets tunnely on certain players and carries it over from game to game. Makes him hard not to scum read which is why I'm surprised he's in your "Town Block." I'd replace Nero with PA.

Also, how is PV obv-Town? I don't know how anyone can be reading this slot with so much certainty based on so little content.

Also, I'd replace ThAd with Snow. Snow is pretty Town, dude. Check his ISO. ThAd is... inconsistent. I have him null - potentially scum based on poe.

I want TWIE, Matt, or Snow right now the most. Could maybe do mastin (not really a scumread, but decent compromise at this point), Egg (replaced Bipolar, doesnt feel like town-egg really).

So we're not lynching Snow, please. I could settle for TWIE but I'm starting to think I'm mostly conf-biasing the slot based on pisskop's play. So meh... I feel like matt, egg, and mastin are all kind of lurker lynches. I could hang any of them and not feel like we lost anything of value.

[Yates]

Based on your Mastin experience, do you think this would result in a town or scum Mastin?

I've never seen Mastin lurk. Also, it's probably unfair to call that a "lurker" slot due to V/LA stuff. But, as I stated earlier, if he's Town I think he should probably replace out. If I had chopped my thumb clean off I would have replaced. Bigger things to worry about and all.

[Yates]

how is your thumb doing BTW Yates?

Want to see?

Spoiler:

What made you change your mind about TWIE?

Our exchange. His defense seems sincere. It would be easy for scum TWIE to tunnel or buddy and he did neither. I still haven't reread him and pisskop but I intend to.

You might have better luck looking at the off-brands, such as they were.

Check pisskop's activity. Or really mastin's for that matter. They both site flaked.

[Yates]

mastin hasn't site flaked...

The frick?

VOTE: mastin2

[Yates]

It seems like the logical think to do would be do check his on site activity or have you started posting random things?

He posted a V/LA. He wasn't posting. I'm not in other games with him. I believed his V/LA. *shrug*

[Yates]

I *just* decided TWIE isn't worth lynching today... wtf...

[Yates]

Prod dodge: Sorry guys. Wasn't expecting to deal with the Heartbleed vulnerability patches all day yesterday [4/9] and I'm going to be on the road all day for work today. [Literally from 3 AM until like 8 PM!]

If I don't get caught up tonight [4/10] I'll post tomorrow.

[Yates]

+I'm starting to suspect a Mastin scum and PA would make sense as a buddy.

Good so vote Mastin with me!!

I'm pretty much caught up on the thread. Read it on my phone on the bus so I haven't been commenting. I'm cool with RM being Town. SiX should be off the table, too, until there's some funky NA that points the finger at him/SK. Plus, the Aptl claim was solid. Not sure the point of the full claim but whatever. I think he doesn't know what a friendly neighbor claim means or why Nero-scum would have no reason to lie about it.

@SiX - Even if Nero is scum, he *has* to admit to being FNed. Think about it. If he claims he wasn't; RM just became scum-unkillable because if she flips she exposes Nero.

I can vote Matt, would consolidate on TWIE, but *really* want Mastin. Something tells me ThAd's alignment is going to sort itself out soon.

That's where I'm at. Let me know if I need to comment on anything specific. A lot of the stuff worth commenting on resolved itself.

[Yates]

Yates, how good do you feel about TWIE relative to the start of the day?

I'm not Town reading him, if that's what you mean. I'm still willing to lynch him - it was just frustrating that I've been pushing this slot for 2 days and the minute I decide I need more info and unvote all of a sudden a wagon forms. It's almost like by not being on the TWIE wagon I'll get the lynch I initially wanted. Plus, I think a TWIE flip will - as you have said - clear some stuff up on me and a couple of other reads.

All that said; I'm probably not the best person to sheep reads from. As has been proven in thread, I'm not exactly on top of this game the way I should be. Yeah yeah, there are RL reasons for it but I'm hoping to reengage starting now [off pain killers as of yesterday]. There's no way I'm going to reread the game but you can expect better contributions from this slot.

[Yates]

@Mod - Please remove me from V/LA. Thanks for your patience!

[Yates]

Also, Mastin's post seemed more townish than scummish to me when I looked through them. Why are some people voting him?

Exactly this: VVV

prob 'cause he's posting it up in MD and cares more about winning prof. mafia than helping find scum.

Once I realized Mastin not only

didn't

site flake but was actually posting like crazy in another game? Screw that.

[Yates]

All aboard the mastin train. Choo! Choo!

[Yates]

Cop cannot kill. AP is lying.

Busted, bro. I trusted you and you broke my heart in two.

VOTE: AP

Scum or SK?

[Yates]

RachMarie is surely a JOAT. SiX could be scum.

Let's worry about this after an AP flip.

[Yates]

Yes its clearly here because it can false guilty me and probably false inno the Serial killer probs six).

The false guilty would be on vig. So that makes Six more believable. Although the 2nd kill is concerning. I don't see how the SK would provide a false negative if you are suggesting we have an SK and scum since both 4nx and Nero were SHOT.

[Yates]

The only immune to me would be SK or werewolf.

Are you just assuming this or did mod tell you? Because all of our NK's have been shot.

Also, who were all your investigations on?

[Yates]

Oh right - I somehow completely missed the second half of the sentence where you said you didn't believe we had either.

But we *did* have a 2nd kill. So that probably *should* be figured out.

[Yates]

yet you don't suspect RachMarie for her claim having sent a FN to Nero Cain?

SiX.

"Friendly Neighbor is necessarily Town-aligned. "

RM is MOD CONFIRMED Town now that we *know* Nero is Town. Can you imagine a scenario where Nero would lie about that? Me neither. RM is Town.

[Yates]

Do you think that's a foolish assumption?

I'm guessing you are assuming an SK would have a knife? If that's your assumption? Then yeah, SK's can have all different kill flavors.

Bold is what I think regarding the double shot kills.

Sorry. I skimmed that one too. Give me a second because I had something I wanted to bring up after Mastin's flip...

[Yates]

I wanted to comment on this yesterday but Mastin was hammered before I could add my snarky comment:

Wondering about a Snork-PA-TWIE-4nxi3ty scumteam.

This looks like a scum slip. 4 person scum team [with mastin]. Also seems very likely he included one of his buddies in that "read." If Snork is right about AP [and I see no reason to believe he's faking] he's confirmed. 4nx flipped Town so he's confirmed. That leaves PA and TWIE for my microscope tomorrow.

[Yates]

Seems a little OP if I can check 2 of the 3 types of anti-town roles.

Well, the counter is you could have "caught" our vig if Aptl hadn't used his power immediately and wanted to save it for when he had a higher probability shot.

So anyway, if AP flips SK this is all moot. BUT - it looks like mastin slipped a scum team of 4. A second scum team also seems OP. That's the only thing that has me thinking SK at this point because otherwise I have no explanation for the 2nd shot. 6 scum seems like too many. Plus Aptl claimed one of the kills. IDK.

PE: UNVOTE: mastin
Good idea.

[Yates]

Are you paraphrasing or assuming?

In looking for the gunsmith variants to answer this I came across two things I did not realize:

The Gunsmith is an information role that can target a player at Night to learn if they have a gun in flavor. Members of the Mafia (that are not Doctors), Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc. all have guns in traditional flavor.

Notably, Serial Killers and Doctors do not have guns.

Using these guidelines, Gunsmiths are considered Normal on mafiascum.net.

Gunsmiths are usually, but

not necessarily, pro-Town

.

1. Looks like AP is not an SK and you were right [Snork] that you wouldn't find one.
2. I've never seen a scum gunsmith. That would be for vig hunting I'm assuming? AP never claimed Vig and we already had a Vig claim Day 2 so I'm not too worried about this being the case. Just always assumed gunsmith = Town. The more you know...

[Yates]

I don't want to check SiX tonight. I'd rather check one of the unknowns.

Yeah. Check someone else. Pretend you are a cop and treat SiX like a Miller claim. Aptil admitted he would show as having a gun and there's no reason not to believe that. I'm not sure what a second check would prove/disprove.

I'll protect you so you can at least get another read out.

[Yates]

Can we not just lynch AP?

Can we just wait for Snork? We have two weeks and this lynch will go down in less than two HOURS. Plus, like 1/3 of the player base hasn't even posted yet today.

[Yates]

Note the bolded parts. I guess we should

wait for everyone to say their bit

...

Sorry. I see why you would think that was directed at you [since I quoted you] but that was a response in general [and more specifically to SiX]. I just wanted to add on the part about how a bunch of people haven't posted today and have yet to react.

[Yates]

Was it worth the wait, Yates?

Lol - finally!

Too bad you have found yourself under my microscope after the mastin flip.

[Yates]

I do think that someone confused about how Friendly Neighbor works killed Nero Cain

That was SiX. Formerly Aptl. Current claiming one shot vig/one shot BG JOAT.

Go wiki a role before you fake claim it.

You think Snork is fake claiming? What's his out when AP flips Town?

I agree on the mastin scumslip thing with a 4p Mafia, and in a 20p game that likely implies a four-man Mafia with an SK.

My thoughts as well. Only, why would SK decide not to kill N1? That's what's bothering me.

I was way off on my Snork read and he's Mafia, maybe Mafia Tracker, with an incriminating result on AP

Ok. This is actually a really good point. Of course, it isn't worth debating until AP flips. If he flips yellow? We can talk.

have you played with scum-me?

I actually looked. Unless I've missed something, you've been Town in all our games.

mods might not use the wiki initially, but these games go through a three-member review board to make sure they conform...

I was also going to mention this but didn't see anywhere who the reviewers were [sometimes listed in the signup thread or game OP]. You'd think *someone* would catch something like that. Then again, how long have I been playing here and didn't know??

Frankly, I had taken a stance, uncertain though it might have been.

Obviously, I'm hoping TWIE is the buddy since this looks like PA Town to me. But, as you say, I don't know what PA scum looks like.

[Yates]

Day 2 VCs were more valuable to me when I was looking at them last night.

I'm trying to communicate something to you without saying it.

Ready?

Look at counts 2.10 and 2.11. Assume Snow and Egg are Town. Think about it...

For now, it's not worth worrying about.

Agreed 100%.

a kill was probably stopped

Twice? Both nights resulted in two shots. One shot each night for the mafia kill. Done. One shot N1 from Aptl/SiX. Who was the second shooter last night? Or are you thinking SK also has a "shot"

flavor

[for lack of a better word].

[Yates]

It was my idea to look into him last night.

So why should we do your dirty work for you? Ideal night action is an SK-scum crosskill. Why would we get in the middle of that? If your team thinks SiX is the SK they better shoot him before he gets to them. *shrug*

[Yates]

I'd like to give Yates a chance to put me under the microscope

I'm not doing that today. Feels rather like chasing my own tail.

Yates, I assume you think ThAd is scum?

Yeah. I realized how stupid that message was about 5 seconds after clicking submit. I'm a totally leet spy.

But yeah. Thad is flying under the radar. He was suspected by numerous conf Town. He's had a wagon on him consisting entirely of Town reads and conf Town. Mastin - AP - Thad is a scary scum combo. Anyway, it's at least something I'd want to rule out - but that's just me. Pretty much the only wasted investigation would be on SiX, RM, and probably Snow.

PE: woah! Will read these in a sec...

[Yates]

Except the part where sks are BP

I'm not even sure they are "usually" BP. But that's their problem.

[Yates]

Hey Yates, how is your thumb

I'm a super healer!

Spoiler:

It's kind of hard to take a selfie of your right thumb and harder to see in pix. BUT - it's growing back well even though you can tell there's a huge chunk missing irl.

[Yates]

Oh god, Yates could tell you alllll about what happens when you argue about what to do with confirmed SKs

Friggin gun to my head. I'd pull the trigger.

[Yates]

Yates, yeah, no superspy points for you.

I was looking for an appropriate Archer pic - since he's *always* telling people he's a secret agent and blowing people's covers. But I got stuck on this:

Spoiler:

[Yates]

Bye bye Birdie

Hey... AP... you're in the

DANGER ZONE!!!

VOTE: AP