NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[SnowStorm]

Hi, hello.

Vote: Damon Grant.

You're going to have to excuse me for being stupid here. The only point I see zdenek making about me is "#4", which you'll forgive me if I don't find it to be spectacular analysis. Obviously I'm missing something here so can someone explain it to me? I'll pre-emptively point out that I barely read the post I was supposed to be sheeping. Honestly,

there's only so much one can say about a post that says "I'm scum", so it's unsurprising we have similar things to say about it.

And yes, I guess I did overjustify my absence which is turning out not to be so much so anyway thanks to this nifty iPad keyboard I got today. I appreciate the birthday wishes, even if they are laced with poison!

Why say anything about it even? It looks like you just picked up the easiest thing to comment and base a vote on and didn't even bother to read the posts after it. It looked like posting just for the sake of posting, as if you just wanted to blend in.

The defensive tone of this post also bothers me.

[SnowStorm]

I like Mr. Rogers. I agree with him on Doc and his wagon-happiness; and on 4nxi3ty and his unconvinced votes, they're easy to backtrack and pretty much pointless.

[SnowStorm]

I kinda like bjc's #82. I like the tone and his points against Doc and Peregrine.

1) Thad -- You are a very experienced player. Can you please explain to me why you are taking BJC's post so literally? If I didn't know it was you, I would think I was reading a low experience player.

Ok here's where I'm at.

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

Do you actually suspect bjc? If so, why? The only reason I find for your vote on him is that you don't like that he claimed scum.

Horrible. First off, since when was this a gambit?
Second, why is something like that posted in RVS even taken seriously?

[...]
My contention is that so far out of everything said here your post is the most blatantly anti-town. At this early stage in the game, where there's not the greatest deal to go on, that is more than enough for you to be a good place for my vote.
[...]

"Your joke was anti-town, therefore you're scum". This is scum logic. Damon is ignoring everything that's happened in the game so far to focus on something alignment irrelevant (unless bjc has a habit of claiming scum when he is scum, then it is certainly relevant). He also feels the need to point out how it is still OK to pursue that. On his first post his excuse was that everything else was clouding his vision; now he says there's not much to go on because the game is still at an early stage. Come on, I'm not saying there's plenty of relevant stuff going on, but anything is more relevant than a bad RVS joke.

[SnowStorm]

"Your joke was anti-town, therefore you're scum". This is scum logic.

That's not scum logic - that's bad logic. Unlike others in this thread, you will not hear me chuck around certainties like "you're scum" - certainly not at this early point of the game. My scumhunting is merely analysing the probability that I feel each person is scum. That anti-town joke upped bjc's percentage chance immediately in my eyes, and the others still have some catching up to do. As long as bjc's percentage is the highest, my vote will remain there - but I am by no means close to certain of course, because certainty at this phase of the game would be idiocy of the highest order.

So you're knowingly basing your vote on bad logic. Ok. Why/How does bjc's joke improve his chances of being evil?

Damon is ignoring everything that's happened in the game so far to focus on something alignment irrelevant (unless bjc has a habit of claiming scum when he is scum, then it is certainly relevant). He also feels the need to point out how it is still OK to pursue that. On his first post his excuse was that everything else was clouding his vision; now he says there's not much to go on because the game is still at an early stage. Come on, I'm not saying there's plenty of relevant stuff going on, but anything is more relevant than a bad RVS joke.

Did I claim there's not much going on? I believe I said that bjc's post was the most anti-town, and for now this is enough without really making a statement about the rest of the game. If I did claim there's not much going on, I apologise, because there are things going on now, if still relatively minor. Now that I'm back at my computer, I have things I wish to analyse, and then maybe I'll get my reads straight in my head.

Your exact words were "

At this early stage in the game, where there's not the greatest deal to go on,

that is more than enough for you to be a good place for my vote." So it's not that you're blatantly saying there's nothing going on, but it is what you imply. You're elevating an RVS joke to the same level of post-RVS content to justify why it is ok to still be focusing on it.

[SnowStorm]

Bad logic is anti-town, therefore scum. Good logic is anti-town, therefore increased probability of being scum.

This. doesn't make any sense. Anyway, you didn't answer my question. Why/How does bjc's joke improve his chances of being evil?

As for the other point you make about RVS vs post-RVS stuff - there is no clear line in the sand between these two as people would like to believe. I play to my win condition from the first post I make - RVS or otherwise. No post is off-limits for analysis.

Well, I agree that RVS stuff shouldn't be disregarded. But I want to know why you think this particular RVS post is more important/relevant than the rest. Because I don't think it is.

[SnowStorm]

Sorry, just prod-dodging.

[SnowStorm]

I had a busy week and I'm tired, but I just want to let you know that I'm here now. I just need to re-read everything and then I'll be fully caught up. I'll try to post something today, but if I don't, don't worry, I'll do it tomorrow and over the weekend.

[SnowStorm]

I like Zdenek. His approach to the game just seems natural and I like most of what he said. I also like the fake vig. It looked fine to me, I was surprised it worked and I thought Chemist's reaction seemed genuine. Idk how often those are pulled, but how often do scum use that as a gambit? And how often do they pull it off successfully? The chances of that being the case here do not seem very high to me.

I don't like ThAdmiral. I didn't like the way he approached the bjc situation. His vote on him doesn't bother me as much as the fact that he seemed frustrated that bjc would get away with town reads, the only reason to be frustrated about that is if he's scum. IDk why town would express being so annoyed at bjc and the claim. His whole position on the matter doesn't make sense to me. Aside that there's nothing in his posts that make me lean town on him. Oh, also, I'm not thrilled about his reaction to the fake Vig. One second he was voting Z. the other he's kneeling before him praising the gambit. Too much.

I'm having a hard time shaking off my Damon scum read. I disagree with most of his reads and in general his posts just sound fake and lazy to me. I was kinda starting to like his #624, especially this part:

"

Stop telling me that these bigger and better fish exist, and start telling me who they are

and giving me convincing reasons to vote for them. You see, the more the day goes on and I see people (including myself) struggling for scumreads and struggling to know where to go,

the more I'm convinced that the majority of the scum in fact lie among these lurkers

."

That is, until it got to the red part. I like that he seems to feel kinda lost, overwhelmed even, but I don't like that he points towards the lurkers. And I liked that it looked like he was pressuring matt for reads (green), but then he's like "give me reasons to vote people!".

I ISO'ed these last two, Zdenek's read is based only on posts until page 10 (more or less). I'm leaving the heavy re-reading for tomorrow.

[SnowStorm]

Snow, what do you think of PV?
And also your take on bjc.

I have no read on PV. Actually I have no reads on a lot of people, either because they didn't post much when I was around or because I'm finding them hard to read (like talah and mastim).

About bjc. I'm leaning town on him. Mostly because of all the flak he's gotten.

[SnowStorm]

LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WE'RE HAVING!!!

Yeahhhhhh... no. I'm not feeling it.

[SnowStorm]

Before: Luca Blight [3] (Damon_Gant, 4nxi3ty, talah)
...
After: 4nxi3ty [4] (ThAdmiral, Damon_Gant, talah, Luca Blight)

This looks funny, in a bad way. Can we just lynch them all?

[SnowStorm]

I like your thinking but didn't you promise some large amounts of posting earlier? Like you know, looking at the active posters and such? Like anywhere but DG?

Hmm no? Well, I said I wanted to re-read those pages I missed but I got lazy and decided to skip that and just ISO people. I'd never promise large amounts of posting lol. I ended up only ISO'ing a couple of people and it wasn't very conclusive.

[SnowStorm]

WTF are you all arguing about?

Talah, I see you have a problem with Mr, but I can't understand if you think he's scum or not. So I'm wondering what is your point? What is the point of this discussion?

[SnowStorm]

Walter, I'm really glad you're here.

The point of the crap with Talah was that I wanted to know what he was using to scumhunt. He dodged the question by arguing about the word usage. Despite then quoting his post so there could be no confusion, he found other reasons to dodge.

It's not worth reading, trust me. None of it.

Let's chat, though. I've been waiting for you.

I got that part. It's the talah vs MR part at the start of this that I find confusing.

Ok, I'm here.

[SnowStorm]

I'm here. I can explain anything you like from Talah's points (the best I understand them) or my own (I understand them perfectly).

It's talah's points that confuse me and that I'd like to see him explain in a clearer manner. I'm finding it really hard to read him because he argues a lot and is always defending himself and I can't tell when he's throwing out attacks as a mean to defend himself (which is what his attack on you looks like to me) and when he's attacking with the purpose of scum-hunting.

And while part of me just wants to lynch him, the other part thinks he sounds really genuine sometimes. I know some players sometimes get so lost in themselves that they forget what the game is about. Then there's a smaller part of me who just wants to ask him "Who are your masters?".

[SnowStorm]

Walter: I was hoping to get your top scum reads.

Damon, ThAdmiral and Luca. Luca's a new addition, I'd expect town in his situation to become more proactive, after all he's still a good contender for today's lynch. Also hate his votes.

[SnowStorm]

The only thing that really bugs me about Luca is the fact that my scum reads are advocating it as an acceptable lynch.

My top town reads right now are you, MR, AP, Pisskop, Zd and mastin. Second tier would be Yates, DV, 4nx and pmatt.
Top scum reads are Talah, Thad, aptil, DG, Rach.

Nulls are nero (for now - his ISO is on my list), Luca, and PV (who I was originally scum reading, but not sure if correct yet based on other posts).

Where would you disagree?

I have a town read on AP too. Pisskop is still kinda null, some people seem to suspect him and I haven't looked much into him yet and while I don't dislike his posts it is not enough to give him a townread.

I have a weaker town read on DV too. As for 4nxiety, I have mixed feelings.

I haven't devoted much thought to mastin, Yates, pmatt, Nero and PV, but I haven't seen anything in their posts that would make me consider lynching them today, so for now they're in the null pile.

Talah is a mess and is in a tier of his own.

Rach is nullish but I'm not a big fan of her latest posts. So she's in between the null pile and scum leaning.

Aptil. I think I'm leaning town on him. I have played with him before (on Westeros mafia), more times than I remembered, because most of the games he played in he ended up being replaced for low activity. The only game where he wasn't replaced was the only game where he was scum, where he looked more proactive and involved. Now while I don't think this is a strong point to town read him for, I don't get a scum feeling from his posts either. So I'd say he's a weak town read atm.

[SnowStorm]

Aptil. I think I'm leaning town on him. I have played with him before (on Westeros mafia), more times than I remembered, because most of the games he played in he ended up being replaced for low activity. The only game where he wasn't replaced was the only game where he was scum, where he looked more proactive and involved. Now while I don't think this is a strong point to town read him for, I don't get a scum feeling from his posts either. So I'd say he's a weak town read atm.

Correction, I think he also completed one game as town, because I remember suspecting him and pushing for his lynch, but his playstyle and tone were different from his scum game and from what I remember, much closer to his style and tone in this game. I'll try to check this later to be sure.

[SnowStorm]

What are you thinking in regards to 4nx? Anything in particular come to mind that makes you think he might not be town?

I just can see him go either way. I like that he seems to have his own opinions and I like that he seems honest about them (like when he says he's not very confident), on the other hand, I don't really agree with said opinions and I could see his honesty coming from scum who's not confident in them because he knows they're fabricated.

Talah is a mess and is in a tier of his own.

Agreed! Are you thinking scumtier, towntier, or wtf-tier?

WTF-tier. The way I feel about talah is similar to the way I feel about 4nxi3ty, only with 100% more chaos. And while I wouldn't like to lynch 4nx today, I wouldn't really mind a talah lynch.

Rach is nullish but I'm not a big fan of her latest posts. So she's in between the null pile and scum leaning.

The issue I have with her posts is that she seems so out of touch with the game, and not in a natural way. She talks about so much outside influence and crap that doesn't matter to the game unnecessarily. I think it was either Yates or Nero who mentioned that there's not reason to explain why they haven't posted yet because it's nobody's business. That's true. If RL is in the way, just say that and declare a V/LA (or replace out if necessary). When you start talking about your personal issues, it comes across as appealing for pity, and I don't like it. Her posts seemed to be all about gaining a pass for her lack of contribution. Even if the RL issues were true, which they very well may be - that is not even the issue, using it as an excuse is awful and only serves to introduce other crap where it doesn't belong, and to cloud anyone's read on her slot.

That's my two cents on Rach.

I agree. What bothers me the most about her is the way she tries to become involved by talking about irrelevant things like southern accents, it comes out a little forced. I'd like to see her thoughts on more relevant stuff.

[SnowStorm]

Before: Luca Blight [3] (Damon_Gant, 4nxi3ty, talah)
...
After: 4nxi3ty [4] (ThAdmiral, Damon_Gant, talah, Luca Blight)

This looks funny, in a bad way. Can we just lynch them all?

What are you seeing?

I didn't like the Luca wagon and the players on it. I didn't like the 4nxi3ty wagon and the players on it. Then we have Luca and 4nx on each-other's wagons. What that means? IDK, but I don't like it.

[SnowStorm]

VOTE: talah.

I don't care for the meta. I don't think it's a very accurate point when it doesn't add to why he'd play like he has in this game.

Any evidence that talah is scum is present in this game. I think all that's wrong about his play has been pointed out by MR

and lost in between pointless discussion.

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

[SnowStorm]

Someone else pointed out that all the effort that Talah made in that bru-ha-ha produced no townie contributions from Talah but yet the effort was there. Its just not right.

Exactly, we don't even need to go into particular arguments, talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments. That's not how you play as town.

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

[SnowStorm]

srry kiddo but you're playstyle has reached anti-town levels, so if you're town learn some patience, a filter, somethin
if ur scum, by all means continue turning this game into a chore <.< for everyone else, I'm sure everyone has endless amount of time -.- to make playing this way a worthwhile experience

Mr Rogers' spam doesn't bother me one bit. I like his attitude and most of the points he raises. I think you should be more worried about the people who incentive his spamming instead.

[SnowStorm]

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

I don't like this post. Like - at all. Please provide the points that caused YOU to read Talah scum. No one can defend against "read ISO." It's also lazy posting and gives you an easy excuse to jump on a leading wagon while providing no information about your alignment after a flip. Commit to your read.

I didn't vote him to get a reaction, I voted him to lynch him. I don't get how you see that as an easy excuse to jump on his wagon. I mean, it's not like I needed one.

Now, the points that make me think Talah is scum: He is playing a reactive rather than pro-active game. I don't usually find this a very condemning point, but in this case it's pretty worrisome. He had the time and energy to react to every little thing Rogers said about him, why not put that time and energy into something more productive? From what I can tell he doesn't even think Rogers is scum, most of their interaction is pretty pointless. (Btw, I absolutely love the post where he accuses Rogers of cluttering up the game and making it "a really easy place for scum to hide", when he's as guilty (At least Rogers had some good pertinent posts) and a big contributor to Roger's spam.)

I really didn't like Roger's attack at the start of the game and I didn't like Talah's reaction to it either. I didn't what to make of it then. At first I didn't think MR was serious, yet Talah had a serious reaction and MR kept it serious. Right now, I think MR was just eager to get the game started. I don't know if he was as serious as he appeared to be, but Talah's reaction was pretty bad.

Your entrance to this game is not genuine.

*yawn*

Actually I know more folks playing here than I realised, so -general hello- and down to business.

@Mister, not genuine

how

?

The *yawn* to me read as "Whatevs that's just RVS BS", but then he makes that question, which only makes sense if he took the attack seriously. It also shows self-awareness. It's like he wants to look as if he doesn't care and at the same time know what he did wrong. Town would either simply not care and move on or attack MR back to try getting some reactions. MR proceeds with his attack and in the next post Talah just gets defensive for no logical reason. It's like, he realizes MR's attack is bad and makes no sense, but that for some reason he feels the need to defend from it and not fight back. It's purely reactive. It's as if he's only here to be judged and not to judge others. It's scum mentality and it's present throughout all of his posts.

Like wtf is this? Both the spacing issue and that third paragraph just scream of self-aware scum.

Also, why isn't he making a stronger push to lynch MR? (before he replaced out). At some point he lists him in his "would lynch" list, so apparently he does suspect him! So why not push for the lynch of the player who's been throwing the most BS at you, who's spamming the game and who is fooling most of the other players? He's obviously a more dangerous scum than Luca or Aptil or myself (whom I don't even remember him mentioning until that list) or whoever his other suspects are. Well, I'm guessing the reason he didn't push for the MR lynch is the same reason why he didn't attack him at the start of the game, he knows MR is town and that even though some of his points have been bullshitty, he's right about him being scum.

This also bugs me:

we don't even need to go into particular arguments

,

talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments

. That's not how you play as town.

To the bold - You really REALLY do need to get into "particular arguments."
To the underlined - what would you expect to see from someone trying to defend against "read the ISO?"

No, I don't, that's the point. As for your second question, it's totally invalid since I was talking about all the reactions that occurred prior to my vote, which weren't to attacks based on "read his ISO". I can tell you what I'd expect to see from someone on his position though. If he does suspect his attackers, I'd expect him to attack them too and not just defend from them. Otherwise, I'd expect him to tell us who his suspects are and why; I'd expect him to have some thoughts that are not related to the attacks on him or that go beyond those attacks.

[SnowStorm]

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

[SnowStorm]

I seriously don't understand why some people think as town that it is 'ok' to get lynched. In the end this is a game of numbers and if you know you're town and you are fine with your lynch rather than someone else's, then you're not playing to your win condition, because when you're town, every lynch that is not yours has a chance to be a scum lynch.

Even if you've become a distraction to town, it's your job to get them to see past the distraction or to at least try. Because if town can't see past it then I doubt they can successfully catch the scum team either.

Now to prove you're town, you could start by analyzing your lynch wagon now, instead of telling us to do so after your flip. That sounds much more productive, since doing so could possibly prevent your lynch and in the best case scenario catch scum! And this is for both talah and Luca.

[SnowStorm]

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

I don't believe you actually think that is why we voted you.

[SnowStorm]

VOTE: talah.

[SnowStorm]

VOTE: Luca.

[SnowStorm]

VOTE: Luca.

Have you got anything to add other than posting naked votes in the hope that something sticks?

I've been accused of lurking this game, but you're taking things to a new level.

You still alive?

Your interaction with talah earlier was pretty odd. Before that you were fine with not interfering with the lynch and leaving your fate in our hands. You were so passive it hurt. Suddenly you want to lynch talah and you're not as fine with your lynch as you were before. Your sudden change in behavior is pretty alarming. Besides, I have been feeling better about talah and I think that if he really is town that it will become more evident as the game progresses and that he'll be easier to read because he's no longer distracted by MR and posts more than you do. I think that if I let you live that you'll just go back to lurking, placing odd-looking votes and just get lynched anyway, which sucks if you're town; and if you're scum we're better off lynching you today.

[SnowStorm]

And you can't slate me for lurking when you're arguably the biggest lurker in this game.

Am I? Wow, that sucks. At least I bothered enough to play the game instead of just walking the plank towards a day 1 lynch and suddenly realizing it was a bad idea.

[SnowStorm]

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

I don't believe you actually think that is why we voted you.

Please do tell then.

Both Snork and I had expressed suspicion over you and had you in our scum tiers. It's naive to think that we'd just start a CW on you because you started one, and for some reason you don't strike me like the naive type.

That fake-interpretation of our actions was just a way to discredit our attempted CW on you because you present a silly hypocrite reason that was never given by us and ignore the actual reasons behind the vote.

[SnowStorm]

And you can't slate me for lurking when you're arguably the biggest lurker in this game.

Am I? Wow, that sucks. At least I bothered enough to play the game instead of just walking the plank towards a day 1 lynch and suddenly realizing it was a bad idea.

No, you have just flown under the radar more than I have because I haven't been trying to make an effort to blend in the days I was busy, while you have been cautiously lurking all game.

What's your point? Are you actually calling me scum for having a low post count or are you just frustrated with your horrible play?

[SnowStorm]

Well, both you and Snork voted him right after the whole counter wagon discussion started so its an EXTREMELY reasonable that someone not privy to ya'lls thoughts would think this especially in light of any other reasoning. Though you calaim there was OTHER reasoning for this vote so you can quote it.

Also why are you more concerned with Thad thinking this but not me?

Is it that reasonable? I mean, would we start a counter-wagon on someone just because they did it too? That's just dumb, especially when you're not taking our reads in consideration. Would we start a CW on ThAd if we did not have a scum read on him? Well, I wouldn't. So to think that we'd start a CW on ThAd just because he had started one too, not taking into account our reads on him, is not reasonable at all. Add to that that he did knew we had scum reads on him, so it's not like he wasn't aware like you're suggesting.

Spoiler:

Snork and Snowstorm trade reads. Not terrible lists but I'm in both scum piles so I don't love them

that

much.

His reaction was just bad and the only purpose it had was to discredit our votes on him based on something he "assumed" for no logical reason.

Vote: ThAdmiral

[SnowStorm]

I'm still waiting for these supposed actual reasons btw.

And don't try and pretend you didn't use the negative sentiment surrounding me because of my proposed counterwagon in an attempt to get a wagon started on me. Otherwise why vote me right then and not any time earlier in the day?

You're waiting, since when? You never showed any interest in the reasons behind my read on you until now. Well, this approach is actually one of them. You just don't seem interested in getting reads on people. Like you say, you're just waiting, waiting for people to do something "scummy" that you can throw against them. Your posts just don't show a town mindset.

I did not vote you because of your attempted Aptil CW. I voted you because at that moment I wasn't happy with either of the main wagons and Snork had expressed that he'd like your lynch too. So I decided to give it a shot. I must say though that I do think your suspicion of Aptil is BS, so yeah I didn't like that you tried to start a counterwagon on him, but it wasn't the act in itself that made me vote you.

As for my other reasons to suspect you:

I don't like ThAdmiral. I didn't like the way he approached the bjc situation. His vote on him doesn't bother me as much as the fact that he seemed frustrated that bjc would get away with town reads, the only reason to be frustrated about that is if he's scum. IDk why town would express being so annoyed at bjc and the claim. His whole position on the matter doesn't make sense to me. Aside that there's nothing in his posts that make me lean town on him. Oh, also, I'm not thrilled about his reaction to the fake Vig. One second he was voting Z. the other he's kneeling before him praising the gambit. Too much.

^Here. Your approach makes no sense coming from town. You voted bjc for his scum claim, then you said it was a null tell, but you kept expressing frustration towards people town reading him. So if you were not voting him for the scum claim what were you voting him for? And if you really thought the scum claim was a null tell why did you only complain about the town reads and not the scum reads based on it?

That part about Zd is also interesting considering he just got killed.

[SnowStorm]

[...] The two that stand out the most are RachMarie and SnowStorm. I was actually pretty surprised with his switch to Luca, tbh. [...]

Why did my switching from Talah to Luca negatively affect your read on me?

Well, both you and Snork voted him right after the whole counter wagon discussion started so its an EXTREMELY reasonable that someone

not privy to ya'lls thoughts

would think this especially in light of any other reasoning. Though you calaim there was OTHER reasoning for this vote so you can quote it.

Also why are you more concerned with Thad thinking this but not me?

Is it that reasonable? I mean, would we start a counter-wagon on someone just because they did it too? That's just dumb, especially when you're not taking our reads in consideration. Would we start a CW on ThAd if we did not have a scum read on him? Well, I wouldn't. So to think that we'd start a CW on ThAd just because he had started one too, not taking into account our reads on him, is not reasonable at all. Add to that that he did knew we had scum reads on him,

so it's not like he wasn't aware like you're suggesting

.

I don't think that I ever suggested that he wasn't aware...

I took it that you were suggesting that it was reasonable to think that someone [ThAd] not aware of our thoughts/reads would take that as the reason for our vote. (?)

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Eh, scum read. Feels quite half-assed. In conjunction with the part where reading through his ISO, the only real case he makes on ThAd is 675, and things like praising Zdenek's gambit are juxtaposed with not liking that ThAd is praising the Zdenek move. Then he's willing to ressurect this read when he also seems happy to lynch Luca or talah.

If I was so happy with Luca's and talah's lynches why would I vote ThAd?

UNVOTE: aptil

Town claim is town.

Also town reading ThAd and 4nxi3ty for seeing what I did yesterday.

Mild town read on mastin2 for not trying to blend into a wagon.

Nero feels slightly town for pushing forward on his read. I'm actually thinking that I want to look at what happened after both leading wagons were claimed VT. Who tried to push the wagons toward potential unknown PRs.

As far as other analysis goes, I don't really have much insightful. Two wagons on known VTs, not much need for scum to stick their necks out. Day of travel means I've about hit the wall, but I'll see what I see when I look for momentum shifts after the claims tomorrow.

What do you mean by the bolded part?

And with regards to your post, how about sticking your neck on the line a bit with some scum reads rather than just trying to form a little group of buddies. In particular I'm always suspicious of someone who calls the person tunnelling them town without very good reason.

I mean by the bolded part that

they were also trying to actively look beyond the easy wagons

. I kind of get that aptil was playing to get off the vig shot and was planning to shoot any counter wagon to a town lynch, which explains the tone of his posts. It was still scummy play day one.

And why does that make them town in your eyes? I mean, it's not like they went after harder targets - Aptil is what I'd consider a perfect easy target. So while I'd understand your point if they were going after harder targets with good reason, I don't understand why you think there's town motivation in going after equally easy targets with not very good reasons.

[SnowStorm]

vote: SnowStorm

fairly certain snow is attempting to tie himself to me by presenting an intentional wishywashy read: [...]

Why would I want to tie myself with you? What do you even mean with that? Why would I use "wishy-washy" reads to achieve that? And if you were so certain that I was attempting to tie myself to you, why didn't you wait for me do fulfill that attempt so that you'd have something more than just speculation to vote me for?

RAWRs cans I interject this rach detour?

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

probably

totally bussing. (how do I feign excitement about wagoning a buddy? "Let's Do It")

Like, seriously?

ya ever since I've been the default push for him I've been like: maybe? and now that he give up on me for a Rach lynch I'm like O_O

I'm not entirely sure on ThAd, but I think it makes sense with snow's play -

I'm sure snow is scum tho

, just look at the way he comments on talah and luca.

Are you?... Because I'm supposedly "attempting to tie myself to you with wishy-washy reads" and "bussing ThAd"? And on this same post you point out you're actually unsure about ThAd, which means you're accusing me of "totally bussing" someone you don't even think is scum?

[SnowStorm]

If I was so happy with Luca's and talah's lynches why would I vote ThAd?

That's my question. I know why I was hoping for an aptil lynch over either Luca or talah. I don't see your motivation to move away from Luca and talah if you thought there was scum between them.

Well guess what? I wasn't happy with those wagons and I'd have much rather lynch ThAd (a strong scum read of mine) than Luca or talah. The fact that I moved my vote away from those wagons should tell you that. Otherwise I ask you, what would be my scum-motivation to move away from the talah wagon which I had strongly pushed at a point to ThAd?

And why does that make [4nxi3ty and ThAd] town in your eyes? I mean, it's not like they went after harder targets - Aptil is what I'd consider a perfect easy target. So while I'd understand your point if they were going after harder targets with good reason, I don't understand why you think there's town motivation in going after equally easy targets with not very good reasons.

aptil pinged scummy to me from the start of my readthrough. I'm less concerned with the purported ease of target than the ease of wagon. And the validity of said wagon. Luca and talah both looked quite town to me in my catch-up reading.

This didn't answer my question. Like, why do you think that is a valid reason to townread them?

vote: SnowStorm

fairly certain snow is attempting to tie himself to me by presenting an intentional wishywashy read: [...]

Why would I want to tie myself with you? What do you even mean with that? Why would I use "wishy-washy" reads to achieve that? And if you were so certain that I was attempting to tie myself to you, why didn't you wait for me do fulfill that attempt so that you'd have something more than just speculation to vote me for?

RAWRs cans I interject this rach detour?

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

probably

totally bussing. (how do I feign excitement about wagoning a buddy? "Let's Do It")

Like, seriously?

ya ever since I've been the default push for him I've been like: maybe? and now that he give up on me for a Rach lynch I'm like O_O

I'm not entirely sure on ThAd, but I think it makes sense with snow's play -

I'm sure snow is scum tho

, just look at the way he comments on talah and luca.

Are you?... Because I'm supposedly "attempting to tie myself to you with wishy-washy reads" and "bussing ThAd"? And on this same post you point out you're actually unsure about ThAd, which means you're accusing me of "totally bussing" someone you don't even think is scum?

This whole thought process feels weird to me.

First, the tying oneself to another player: presumably 4nxi3ty is coming from a mindset of knowing he's town, so you trying to link yourself to him is you trying to link yourself to a townie. Why do that if a) you aren't sure of the linkee's alignment, and b) there isn't an advantage in doing so. Here, you-scum and him-town means that if you successfully link the two of you, your alignments would be considered as identical, an advantage for your team regardless of who dies first.

And your second part, you're complaining because he thinks your play toward ThAd is indicative of bussing but he's voting you? If he thinks you're both scum, why is voting you first anti-town? If one has a strong read and a weak read, voting the strong read first is logical.

First, why are you answering something that was not adressed to you? Second I find it fascinating that you think my thought process is weirder than 4nx's (Actually, I'm not sure you do, but I'm assuming so because .context.). Third, do you actually think there's validity to 4nx's accusation? That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on. Tell me how that makes any sense.

[SnowStorm]

That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

This is not what I am saying at all. I'm saying you are preparing false leads incase you flip. No where do I even remotely mention you're doing this to look town, that would be silly.

I seriously have no idea of what you're accusing me of. You're saying now that I was/am preparing false leads in case I flip. Could you explain how I am/was doing that?

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on.

Yes I do think your post is a strong association tell yet that doesn't exactly change my read on ThAd, it is still weak.
So what you mean to say is that if I do flip scum that ThAd is likely to be my partner? Which is something you can only analyze if you have on of our flips and that is totally irrelevant right now since you don't even suspect ThAd. And yet you're using as a valid point to call me scum.

[SnowStorm]

First, why are you answering something that was not adressed to you? Second I find it fascinating that you think my thought process is weirder than 4nx's (Actually, I'm not sure you do, but I'm assuming so because .context.). Third, do you actually think there's validity to 4nx's accusation? That if I was scum I would be using wishy-washy reads to tie myself to him as a mean to look town?

He doesn't think both ThAd and me are scum, that's the point. He's accusing me of "totally bussing" someone whom he doesn't have a scum read on. Tell me how that makes any sense.

First, this is forum Mafia, not an old school etiquette lesson. I can discuss anything brought up in the thread I damn well please, especially when it involves my top scum read. If I was answering questions on someone else's behalf, you *might* have a point. As it stands, you whining about me sticking my nose in just makes me more certain you're scum.

Oh please... I wanted to know 4nx's answer, not yours, because your answer doesn't help me get a better understanding of where he's coming from and doesn't help me with my read on him! I'm not complaining that you commented on it, but you should have waited for 4nx to react first.

Second and third, yes, I do think there's validity to the idea of associating oneself with a town player as scum. And I see nothing wrong with him considering your behavior toward ThAd.

If you flip scum

, you'd better believe your interactions would be scrutinized. Had 4nxi3ty used the theory that you were bussing ThAd to justify voting ThAd, I'd have a problem with it. As it stands, nope.

Yeah, that's not what I asked. Do you think there's any validity

in this particular

accusation? Do you think 4nx has any reason to think that I was trying to associate myself with him and that I'd have a good scum motive to do so?

Now lets get to that "IF". Sure, if I flipped scum I'd expect my interactions to be scrutinized, but I have not flipped so using that as a reason to push for my lynch is just pure BS.

You said you didn't like either the talah or the Luca wagons, hence the vote elsewhere. Some relevant posts (spoilered for length):

Spoiler: End of Day One

VOTE: talah.

I don't care for the meta. I don't think it's a very accurate point when it doesn't add to why he'd play like he has in this game.

Any evidence that talah is scum is present in this game. I think all that's wrong about his play has been pointed out by MR

and lost in between pointless discussion.

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

Here you're free of talah doubts.

Someone else pointed out that all the effort that Talah made in that bru-ha-ha produced no townie contributions from Talah but yet the effort was there. Its just not right.

Exactly, we don't even need to go into particular arguments, talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments. That's not how you play as town.

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

Feeling good about the lynch.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

And yet.

VOTE: talah.

VOTE: Luca.

IDEK

And you can't slate me for lurking when you're arguably the biggest lurker in this game.

Am I? Wow, that sucks. At least I bothered enough to play the game instead of just walking the plank towards a day 1 lynch and suddenly realizing it was a bad idea.

And here you blame Luca for his lynch while saying now that you weren't happy about it.

Ok, because you clearly didn't try to think of my posts in their original context: Between #1277 and #1483 are 206 posts, some of them made by talah. I felt better about him and switched to ThAd since he was still one of my top scum reads and other players were suspecting him too. The ThAd wagon never got more than 2 votes and we needed to get a lynch through, even if by then I thought they were more likely to be town no other lynch was happening. I switched to Luca because, I had been feeling better about talah and Luca had made some posts I didn't like, also:

[to Luca:]
Your interaction with talah earlier was pretty odd. Before that you were fine with not interfering with the lynch and leaving your fate in our hands. You were so passive it hurt. Suddenly you want to lynch talah and you're not as fine with your lynch as you were before. Your sudden change in behavior is pretty alarming. Besides, I have been feeling better about talah and I think that if he really is town that it will become more evident as the game progresses and that he'll be easier to read because he's no longer distracted by MR and posts more than you do. I think that if I let you live that you'll just go back to lurking, placing odd-looking votes and just get lynched anyway, which sucks if you're town; and if you're scum we're better off lynching you today.

Actually, I think the reasons why I voted Luca over talah in the end were pretty clear. I don't see how they're so hard to understand for some people.

[SnowStorm]

@snow, see my post 1886 for examples ie: scum will intentionally take a wishwashy stance on someone so later town will go "why was he wishwashy here, buddies?"

not using it as a point to call you scummy, I have other reasons to think you are scum. Yet it is still relevant and worth bringing up to see how you two respond and if it holds any water. (not getting why you still think I don't suspect ThAd after just saying I have a weak scumread on him)

That's just a dumb reason to call someone scum. Scum can have all kind of reads on town and they'll all be analyzed if the scum flips and after it flips. Your reasons to scum read me are purely speculative and subjective and could be applied to any read by anyone else.

I'm really having trouble trying to understand your push on me.

[SnowStorm]

Spoiler: This looks like town frustration

Um Thad I moved on, but you bring it back up, the other game JUST ended and he turned out to be SCUM in that game not town. JS

Holy fuck.



What about "at that time" do you not get?
YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SCUM AT THAT TIME BECAUSE HE HAD A CLAIMED INNOCENT ON HIM.
WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

Ok, do you understand now?

I don't think you're this stupid so I can only assume you are intentionally missing the point.

No it doesn't.

[SnowStorm]

Now lets get to that "IF". Sure, if I flipped scum I'd expect my interactions to be scrutinized, but I have not flipped so using that as a reason to push for my lynch is just pure BS.

This feels like scum caught for the wrong reasons and upset about it. Thats not even most of the case on, you more just a sidenote about Admiral?

What's the case on me, AP? Please explain it to me. Don't forget to mention what you find so compelling about it that made you vote me. And spare me the shitty clichés.

[SnowStorm]

Alright PA, lets talk. I know Ive sort of engaged Damon on this point, but why is mastin town for going off the leading wagons but you don't think Snow is? There were like 4-5 people starting 3rd wagons or sitting off the main ones in the first place, so why is mastin town for doing something anti-town and everyone else is meh?

Attitude toward the leading wagons. Mastin took the attitude of not wanting to lynch Luca/talah on principle; I don't see that from SnowStorm.

More like he was hoping to avoid the wagons altogether.

How could you get that from my posts when I strongly pushed for talah's lynch at a point? What do you think about ThAd then, who did avoid the wagons until the end of the day?

[SnowStorm]

:deep breath: here we go.

Now it's possible that I've misinterpreted your reason for voting me, but I don't think I misinterpreted snork's. He himself expressed suspicion due to me trying to form a counterwagon, and also responded to gant's argument that my attempted counterwagon made me look scummy. The timing of your vote lead me to believe that you were also jumping on for similar reasons. You say you weren't. Ok. But looking at the history and timing of everything can you still say that it is

illogical

for me to think what I did?

It's not as illogical as it is naive, which is what I called it first. I don't believe you or anyone else could genuinely think we'd vote you solely because of your CW attempt. By doing so you're ignoring all that's been said and done before that and a lot had been said and done up to that that point and by ignoring all that you reduced our votes to a simple and weak reason that also looked hypocrite because of the way you worded your reaction.

I don't understand what you mean by me "waiting for people to do something "scummy" that I can throw against them". Can you point out where I've done this? The point is sort of baffling to me.

I mean, you only go after scummy players - players whose play does not fit the common ideals of good town play - like bjc, Aptil (pre-claim) and Rach. They all looked/look scummy, but as far as good reasons that point towards them actually being scum, they're close to none. You seem to be more worried into pursuing the scummy stuff because it's scummy than into understanding whether or not scummy means scum.

Ok, can you explain why my suspicion of aptil is bs? I don't think you've mentioned this before but I'd love you to explain your stance now.
And just to be clear you are saying that my attempt to start a counterwagon

did indeed

influence your decision to vote me? (although wasn't the sole/main reason you voted me?)

Following the thought process from the previous answer. Aptil looked scummy, but looks aside, I didn't think there was anything in his posts that pointed towards him being scum. He was an easy target and I didn't like your suspicion or vote on him.
Lets see, my thoughts are in

bold red

.

OK, STOP THE PRESSES. I'VE FOUND SCUM!

Basically I don't like either leading wagons tbh. So I decided to look back through the thread to try to rally support for an independent third party.

Obviously I knew I was happy to lynch

Anxiety

for coasting and having wishy-washy reads.

But I also found

Rach marie

- for coasting, voting nero because apparently he is more active when he's town (a poor reason to vote, also on a person who wasn't around to defend themselves at the time - smacks of a vote park), and trying to sneak on to the luca wagon uncontroversially with a hypocritical reason (going after low-hanging fruit).

But then I looked at

Aptil

.

If you haven't done it yet ISO him. He only has around 30 posts so it won't take long.

- he is also scummy for coasting -

BS. Scum don't coast for no apparent reason and doing so on day 1 brings them no benefits. It is also a subjective opinion that is hard to back up but easy to toss around, since you can basically accuse any low poster of coasting.

- he is scummy for post 1216 in which he hedges his bets on bjc/snork (he says snork is town-posting, but bjc replaced out scummily) -

This was very weak. Yes it is scummy. Is it it much more likely to come from scum than from town? No. Had there been any scum motivation behind it you'd expect him to develop it, but he didn't, so it was just a thought.

- he is scummy for accusing dg of being a "dodgy character" for not joining the talah wagon in 1236 even though

he himself had not joined the talah wagon at this point

-

I don't find this condemning. I don't necessarily think this is would be more likely to come from scum than town.

- he is scummy for eventually voting talah but

never really providing a reason as to why he thinks he is scummy

other than claiming that he is "bad all over" in his

first post

- NOTE: This is even while in 595 he reads luca as scum, he suggest that luca and talah are scum together in 1214 and 1224, but then in 1279 states: "VOTE: Talah- This is much better than lynching Luca". Um, Why?

- In the post you linked in the previous point he does make it clear that he agrees with the case on talah, it was part of why he suspected Damon.

Fact: he lacks internal consistency. Verdict: he is scum and must hang. -

Fact: Lacking internal consistency does not equal scum. In fact, I think scum are more aware of inconsistencies and try harder to stay consistent.

THERE IS STILL TIME.

TALAH IS STUBBORN BUT PROBABLY TOWN, LUCA IS TROLLING BUT IS JUST AS LIKELY TOWN AS SCUM

JOIN ME AND I WILL LEAD YOU TO VICTORY

VOTE: APTIL

So overall, you had a whole lot of nothing on him, which makes your vote and push on him even worse. All that conviction just reads as a big facade for a hollow case. So yeah, I did not have a problem with your attempt at creating an alternative wagon but I didn't like that you chose to do with on Aptil, with those reasons ad with that overly convinced tone.

Let me break down the bjc situation for you:
1) I voted bjc because I hate stupid scum-claim gambits like that. I did not vote him because I thought he was scum

at that point

. It was more to teach him a lesson etc.
2) People started defending bjc and attacking his attackers, and I found it odd because I didn't see why anyone could think he was town. I felt the scum-claim was a null-tell at best.

1. That is dumb.
2. As you say, it was a null tell. The same way you found it odd that there were people defending bjc from attackers, those defenders found it odd that someone would attack bjc for what they considered to be a null tell. Makes sense no?

I most clearly state my position at the time here:

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

And also here, where I admit that I'm not necessarily voting bjc because I thought he was scum (to a question

you

asked me):

Do you actually suspect bjc? If so, why? The only reason I find for your vote on him is that you don't like that he claimed scum.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm voting him.

My stance on bjc changed somewhat when I took in to account his reaction to the people voting him. I explain my stance here:

bjc - the scum claim itself is null (but annoying). The fact that his scum reads are based solely off people who voted him, and the fact that he has only interacted with people who voted him/questioned him looks bad. leaning-scum.

Does this clear everything up? Given that I already answered a question

asked by you

about my stance on bjc far earlier in the game I hope and trust you will actually remember my response this time.

I remember your answer. I was just not satisfied with it as it wasn't very clear and either way I didn't like it. You were either voting him because you suspected him, which you hadn't given any good indication of; or you were voting him because of the scum claim which you said was a null tell, which would just be dumb.

[SnowStorm]

What's the case on me, AP? Please explain it to me. Don't forget to mention what you find so compelling about it that made you vote me. And spare me the shitty clichés.

That you are concerned with having a case on you that you can refute , irony I know.

Anxiety is calling you scummy for being overly on the fence about him (and while I don't know if I agree with his conclusion about you trying to connect yourself there, I agree that your Anxiety read felt fake).

PA is voting you because of your hopping around from Talah/Luca at the end of the day and your attempt at wagoning Admiral looking like a weak attempt to not be off the ML wagon of the Day.

I didn't have a great reason for suspecting you when I voted, but your response to being wagoned reads desperate and OMGUSy

.

I see you didn't listen when I told you to spare me of shitty clichés. Too bad because it was for your own good. Seriously, every last post of you has included the kind of stuff that I expect from scum and the kind of stuff that they rarely fail to deliver. This "I didn't really suspect you but I do now because of your reaction" is one of them. It's plain textbook scum.

[SnowStorm]

Wow AP you're just a gold mine of BS!

Why would I want to tie myself with you? What do you even mean with that? Why would I use "wishy-washy" reads to achieve that? And if you were so certain that I was attempting to tie myself to you, why didn't you wait for me do fulfill that attempt so that you'd have something more than just speculation to vote me for?

This is just a shotgun spray of questions at Anxiety that are all moreorless asking the same thing. And you asking why he didn't wait longer just feels like discrediting since you don't even claim to know WHY hes suspecting you in the first place.

You'd guess that with so many questions that he'd understand my doubts better. I guess I should have asked more questions! He said I was trying to attempt doing X. I don't need to know what X was to ask him "why didn't you wait for me to do X then?".

Like, seriously?

Reads fake.

Your face reads fake.

[...] The two that stand out the most are RachMarie and SnowStorm. I was actually pretty surprised with his switch to Luca, tbh. [...]

Why did my switching from Talah to Luca negatively affect your read on me?

People have been talking about mastin's vote-hop being potentially scummy and also Thad and RMs. The defense you made holds equally for Thad who you consider scummy: Thad disliked both wagons, so clearly he is town for voting aptil. What is his scum motivation for voting aptil??

To not be on the town wagons and still look like he's scum hunting. As I pointed out in response to him it was a bad case and it's purely for looks. Now he could achieve a distance from the main wagons that I couldn't because I had already strongly pushed and voted for one of them, so saying I was trying to get some distance from the town wagons by voting ThAd is stupid, because my connection to them was already established and it couldn't be broken.

I seriously have no idea of what you're accusing me of. You're saying now that I was/am preparing false leads in case I flip. Could you explain how I am/was doing that?

Jesus, he already quoted it which is what STARTED this whole debate and Anxiety's point is REALLY not that difficult to understand. This looks like you are feigning ignorance.

It's not difficult for you to understand because you just understand it the way it suits you best. Now I'm actually trying to get a read from it. And accusing me of feigning ignorance is a stupid accusation since it is subjective, unprovable and undefendable.

So what you mean to say is that if I do flip scum that ThAd is likely to be my partner? Which is something you can only analyze if you have on of our flips and that is totally irrelevant right now since you don't even suspect ThAd. And yet you're using as a valid point to call me scum.

So is Anxiety scum or wrong?

Im not seeing a town reaction to Anxiety here, you look like you just want to get the case off you and have no interest in determining Anxiety's alignment.

Well, that's what I'm still trying to figure! Meanwhile, I figured you're more likely to be scum than wrong and also that you suck.

Oh please... I wanted to know 4nx's answer, not yours, because your answer doesn't help me get a better understanding of where he's coming from and doesn't help me with my read on him! I'm not complaining that you commented on it, but you should have waited for 4nx to react first.

Yet, you still haven't come to any conclusion about Anxiety's push so Im calling BS on this.[/quote]
What part of "I'm still trying to get a read on 4nx" don't you understand? You're accusing me of faking ignorance because I don't fully understand where he's coming from with his accusation. You're accusing me of not trying to get a read on him. And now you're susprised that I don't have a read on him? Well, maybe if you actually bothered to understand what I wrote you'd realize that I haven't reached a conclusion on whether I think 4nx is town or scum because I don't understand his suspicion and I'm still trying to get a clearer explanation from him to help me reach a conclusion. - which is basically what I've been saying.

[SnowStorm]

I see you didn't listen when I told you to spare me of shitty clichés. Too bad because it was for your own good. Seriously, every last post of you has included the kind of stuff that I expect from scum and the kind of stuff that they rarely fail to deliver. This "I didn't really suspect you but I do now because of your reaction" is one of them. It's plain textbook scum.

I never said I didn't suspect you,

I said I didnt have a good REASON for suspecting you

. But, wow lol.

1. That's even worse!
2. You don't have any good reasons now either.
3. If you don't have a good reason to suspect someone then you do not suspect them. You're telling me that you did suspect me but that you didn't have any good reasons to do so, which apparently you seem to think you have now. You're literally telling me that you waited to get reasons to suspect me. What kind of player does that? The answer is: not a town player.

[SnowStorm]

ThAd, what's your read on me?

[SnowStorm]

Snow, what's up with the way you talk to PA and your attacks on AP, I thought you had those slots as town yesterday?
And what happened to your Damonread?

I did have those slots as town, MR/AP especially were one of my strongest town reads on day 1. It was kind of upsetting when AP got in between our interaction because I was trying to read you, whom I've had trouble getting a solid read on since the beginning of the game. I also didn't like the way she did it and the points she raised, which doesn't help me in maintaining that town read. As for PA, his attack on me was really bad and unexpected, I mean, it's not something I would expect from a player like PA as town.

Call it OMGUS, call it whatever you like, but the truth is it is much easier to tell when people are making up bullshit on me than when they do it on others.

As for my Damon scum read, it's not as strong as it was so I'd rather focus my time on other players, like the ones I've been interacting with.

[SnowStorm]

As for my Damon scum read, it's not as strong as it was

why not?

It just isn't. I don't remember any specific posts that made me feel better about him, but I do think it's possible that my issue with him is more a question of his tone and playstyle. I've also developped stronger scum reads on other players, which I think are more worth pursuing than the one I have on Damon.

[SnowStorm]

All edginess aside, I really don't get the sense that you're clear on who's who between me and AP. Which, yeah, AP vs. PA is maybe-kinda weird when we're both scum reading you, but you accused me (PA, female) of interfering with your 4nxi3ty reading process (which I still maintain is part of the large game process--what you post is fair game for everyone to comment on, and I wasn't feeding 4nxi3ty answers) and I suspect that your burden of proficiency argument was intended to be used against AP (male).

I'm perfectly aware of who's who, I just mixed up the acronyms. -.-

My continued problem with SnowStorm is that I could vaguely see that if he thought he was being attacked with no arguments, yeah, that's annoying as any alignment. But the tenor of his responses when confronted with actual reasons is denial. Like only cases that he approves of have merit. Which I suspect would number zero.

If I am saying something I know to be false is false, is it still denial? Is it wrong even? You can have all the reasons in the world to call me scum, but I know from the start that those reasons, contrary to your beliefs, do not prove that I am scum. So what I try to do in face of accusations, is to show how they are wrong. So when I deny 4nx's accusations (for example), I deny them because they're untrue AND because they're not actually alignment indicative - which I can tell they're not because I'm town and much like he's accusing me of using my reads to tie myself to him he could be accusing anyone else of tying themselves to people they've given reads on; on top of that, there's no other evidence to back up the accusation. 4nx basically attributed a scum motive to my read on him for no apparent reason other than "scum tie themselves to people through their reads" (so yeah, scum do it, but why would I?). So I do not think his accusation has any validity in itself and obviously I do not approve of it. Nor do I approve any other case on me because any thought process that concludes that I am scum is wrong. So I don't approve any case on me, but I do evaluate the reasons and thought process behind them and that I can approve. - In sum, I can accept cases on me if I think they're genuine, but I cannot approve them.

The point here is that you *did* scum read a leading wagon, and I'd argue that that scum read was active when the clock was ticking down. Overall supporting wagons on townies and trying to hop off at the end is scummy, while not liking wagons on townies but being willing to commit to a least-bad wagon of the feasible options is good town play. Avoiding the wagons altogether like mastin2 did falls somewhere in the middle for me. Given what I know of mastin's play, it wouldn't be a shocking move for her as town. And I'd actually expect her to want to influence town more than she's doing here if she's scum.

As I said, I wouldn't have hopped off the talah wagon if I still had a solid scum read on him and context is key in understanding this change in my read. I'm not the kind of player who writes down every read update and I don't like being redundant. talah had posted some posts that made me feel better about him and brought back the doubts I had earlier about him; I never liked the Luca wagon; So it wasn't about avoiding the town wagons (which I couldn't even if I wanted to because of my earlier push on talah), it was about wanting to lynch my top scum read, it was about pursuing my own read, my own instinct, rather than someone else's. My ThAd read came from me, from my interaction with him and from my interpretation of his posts, my talah read was a mixture of that and agreeing with the cases of other players, like MR and Snork. I did not care if my action would look scummy or not, well I already knew it would if I was right and talah flipped town, but I did it anyway. Why the fuck would I as scum leave my safe place on the talah wagon to do something I knew I would be scrutinized for once she flipped?

[SnowStorm]

Ok, I think I've kinda picked out the main gist of my problem with SnowStorm recently. What it is is this shocking flip for being very much an offensive player to suddenly very defensive indeed - all triggered by not very many votes. Look at this ISO, and I think you'll notice the split in tone between posts before ~ #35 and those after. I don't believe that defensiveness in itself is a scumtell - I think it's a trait. When a player starts to exhibit defensiveness quite dramatically and so suddenly, that's when my suspicions arise.

The other main problem I have with SnowStorm is this post yesterday - where he moves his vote from talah to ThAd

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Which isn't too bad by itself but when you consider that the post directly before was a post all about how talah was scum and just a couple of posts before that he said:

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

it just makes the ThAd vote feel really unnatural to me.

My vote is looking for a home and for now I'm happy with this.

Vote: SnowStorm

About the change in tone all I can say is it is a personality tell.

About those two posts. I addressed that in my previous post. You're not taking the context of the posts into consideration or the fact that in between my thAd vote and my previous post about a day had passed, and between the thAd vote and the post you quoted, about two days and twp-hundred posts had passed.

[SnowStorm]

A couple of thoughts:

Nero has become one of my strongest town reads. I'm really liking his posts today.

Snork is still a strong town read. I agree with his reasons to suspect Rach, but I am not comfortable with lynching her. I find the amount of town reads on her pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

AP is probably my strongest scum read after ThAd.

[SnowStorm]

I find the amount of town reads on her [Rach] pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

What? I don't understand what you are saying here.

Rach strikes me like the kind of player who'd be easy for scum to push a lynch on and I think some have said something around the lines of her being an easy target. That goes for both alignments. If she's town, scum could just go from what Snork has brought up to push for her lynch, I think Snork's suspicion of her looks pretty genuine and I actually agree with most of the points he has raised against her, so it wouldn't be hard for scum to fake suspicion on her. I think the only thing that's stopping them from doing it is the ammount of town reads she has gotten from meta or no reasons at all. It's safer for them to just go along and town read her too (at least for now). If she was scum, first, I don't believe she'd have this many town reads, second, even if she had a good number of town reads coming from town, I don't think scum would join in, I'd expect some weak scum reads floating around, after all, she'd still be pretty scummy and it wouldn't be unlikely to think that people could change their minds on her/figure out she was scum and lynch her, that way they'd get some town cred and some fingers to point at post-flip. I mean, it wouldn't matter how many town reads she had on her now, if she kept playing like this she'd be bus material.

[SnowStorm]

Ok, I think I'm going to settle with a town read on 4nxiety.

I like that he took his vote off my wagon, which he started. It's not what I'd expect from scum as I think he could have kept pushing me safely. I also think scum are more likely to support cases started by town than by their team members; the way the wagon on me developed has lead me to believe that this wasn't started by scum but instead grew with the help of scum. One reason that lead me to these conclusions is that I also don't really like the pushes that have been made on 4nx. When you add this all up it doesn't make much sense. I mean, I find it odd that a player who's been generally suspected could get so much support when he made his case on me, which wasn't even good to start with.

As I've said, I really did not like the way AP joined the wagon and he fits pretty well in the profile of scum opportunistically jumping on a wagon built by town, even more so if PA is town, which is what I'm leaning at since I already had the slot as town and I don't believe them both to be scum.
As I've said, I really did not like the way AP joined the wagon and I

[SnowStorm]

if she kept playing like this she'd be bus material.

I sort of see what you are saying. I'm not sure that's how it plays out irl. I'll have to check some games to see if this bears out. Is this a new theory or something you've seen elsewhere?

It's just logical thinking... Rach wasn't playing a good game. She was widely suspected and had done nothing at all. If she was scum she wouldn't be in a very favorable position and would most likely end up lynched. Her team mates would be pretty aware of that and they'd probably find that it would be better for them in the long term to bus her than to defend her and risk having her flip later.

@Damon (and anyone else I guess): Why does SnowStorm as scum stop voting for talah (who is a pretty ideal lynch for scum as he's actually a good player) and change it to ThAdmiral?

A few reasons I can think of:

a) To encourage another wagon and split up town votes more - causing confusion and small potential for no lynch.

Since when is it better for scum to not lynch than to lynch town?...

@Damon (and anyone else I guess): Why does SnowStorm as scum stop voting for talah (who is a pretty ideal lynch for scum as he's actually a good player) and change it to ThAdmiral?

Because scum do random shit sometimes to look town? Mastin, aptil, and Snork all did the same shit. It doesnt make any of them town.

You make it sound pretty obvious that doing those things didn't make us look town, but you think we'd be dumb enough as scum to still do them with that end in mind?

[SnowStorm]

- Snowstorm doesn't like me because of my behaviour regarding bjc early day 1 but I feel like I've adequately explained my thought process there. He also accused me of going after scummy people, which I'm happy to admit being guilty of.

I don't like you because your behavior towards bjc, which you've adequately explained, was a scummy behavior, which is to say I think there was scum motivation behind it.

When I accuse you of going after scummy people, I mean easy targets, who don't look town but don't necessarily look scum either and that sometimes just have an inherently scummy tone.

You're also fueling suspicion with frustration in the case of your suspicion of bjc and Rach. You said you didn't suspect him and that you only voted him because you didn't like his play. As town you should have put that aside and move on, instead you kept expressing your frustration towards him while you were voting him, which makes no sense to do as town because by doing so you were contributing to a general negative opinion on someone you didn't even suspected, which also helped in creating a distraction in him. I don't care how well you explain this, it was not town play.

You're doing the same thing with Rach. Idk if you actually suspect her or not, but you're expressing frustration towards her town play and towards people town reading her (much like you did with bjc's tow reads). You appear to be frustrated because people are town reading players who, from your POV, do not deserve those town reads, even if they're most likely town. And you're channeling that frustration into your suspicions and votes because that frustration is genuine, which is something a fabricated reason wouldn't be.

[SnowStorm]

ou're also fueling suspicion with frustration in the case of your suspicion of bjc and Rach. You said you didn't suspect him and that you only voted him because you didn't like his play. As town you should have put that aside and move on, instead you kept expressing your frustration towards him while you were voting him, which makes no sense to do as town because by doing so you were contributing to a general negative opinion on someone you didn't even suspected, which also helped in creating a distraction in him. I don't care how well you explain this, it was not town play.

This is a REALLY town thing to do though. Scum like to be consistent, town are more likely to get emotional and do their own thing because they want to.

I don't know how you can say this and still think ThAd is town? You think scum are consistent. You think town are emotional. But you fail to see how ThAd's using his frustration to look town and make other players look bad? I mean, that thought process you're showing, is the exact reason why he'd act that way. How is using frustration at bad town play to push for a lynch, a town thing to do? (I'm not talking about only bjc here, he's doing the same thing with Rach). And when you take away his frustrations he's pretty much emotionless. So how do you get that he's town from only showing an emotion that has a much stronger scum motivation than town? Oh because I also find it hard to believe that someone like ThAd, who has a join date from 2006 and who does appear experienced would let himself get blinded by bad play.

[SnowStorm]

SCUM
-ThAd. Nuff said.
-Damon. I've pondered this read again. He's rusty and I feel like he has a natural scummy tone and I wanted to take that into consideration. Well, I have now. I hate his posts, his votes and his reads. Scum.
-AngryPidgeon. I like his style, he does appear somewhat natural in his interactions, but I absolutely hate his suspicion on me. The way it developed, the reasons he used, it was just horrible and lazy, it was the complete opposite of what I'd expect from someone who's been playing like he has. I also think he's too stubborn and over-confident in his reads and I don't think he has good reasons to be. He reads as scum who knows what he's doing, who's in conrtol.

TOWN
-Snork. His day 2 play has been disappointing but he's still one of my strongest town reads. Dude, move on from your Rach read, you're doing scum a favor by distracting yourself with it.
-Nero. I like his posts and his reads.
-SiX. Vig claim; Bad pushes on Aptil, weak town read on Aptil before claim. Highly doubt he's scum.
-4nxi3ty. Weaker town read. Due to what I've said previously, I think he's more likely to be town.
-penguin_alien. Strong town read on MR. I don't like her posts as much, probably because she went after me, but I don't think she's particularly scummy, so I'm sticking to my town read on the slot.
-DeasVail. Weak town read. I just like his posts in general and his talah defence on day 1, it read genuine.
-Rach. I just doubt she's scum.

The NULL pile:
-TheWayItEnds. Ugh, I should get a read on this slot.
-Egg. Errr... Not today.
-Yates. I'm really not sure about him.
-projectmatt. Idk, I don't really remember anything from him that made me lean one way or the other.
-PeregrineV. I hum, should probably get a read on this one too.
-mastin2. This one is a little confusing. I kinda liked her posts, but I'm not sure if I like her reads and votes.

[SnowStorm]

I thought I had written an introductory phrase. I hate to just drop thing like BAM-READS!

Anyway. I want ThAd lynched today. If anyone has a problem with this lynch, explain why, because I haven't seen a single good reason to believe that ThAd is town.

[SnowStorm]

Do YOU see Thad's latest bout of frustration aimed specifically at Nero being from scum? That emotion is pretty hard to fake and I dont see why scum would do something so likely to draw attention, especially from Nero who is tentatively voting people who arent Thad. Its just town rage. Pretty sure.

Oh, wow. Such rage. Very town.

[SnowStorm]

Do YOU see Thad's latest bout of frustration aimed specifically at Nero being from scum? That emotion is pretty hard to fake and I dont see why scum would do something so likely to draw attention, especially from Nero who is tentatively voting people who arent Thad. Its just town rage. Pretty sure.

Oh, wow. Such rage. Very town.

Snark instead of adding your opinion about something that wasn't directed at you nor about you?

Why? This is one of those posts I mentioned that I really don't like.

I didn't like the post, which concerned two scum reads of mine and I thought the message was obvious.

PA is acting like scum aren't capable of faking rage or frustration and that it is obviously town because he had no reason to do it as scum either. Whenever ThAd's concerned he just takes things at face value. His interpretations fit what I think are ThAd's intentions, but I don't think they fit PA's thought process. What I liked about PA was involved, he asked questions and interacted with people, to me his posts demonstrate a level of involvement thinking and experience that does not match some of his opinions. Sometimes, like in this case, he just seems to be dumbing down to achieve the reads he wants. In this post he's basically saying. "Look at ThAd's rage and emotion. Emotion is town. ThAd's town!" It's just so simplistic and the way it's written is manipulative. "Do YOU see how town that is? YOu don't wanna vote that!".

As for ThAd's rage itself. PA said he had no scum reason to do it, but what about a town reason? I don't see one. ThAd needed someone to vote for, the Rach wagon wasn't going anywhere and it would be bad to stay on it. So he blew up at Nero, out of nowhere.

You scummy fuck, nero. I don't believe I actually sided with you day one. Even today I didn't think you were scum until recently. I think it was wishful thinking. I didn't want to think you were scum. I let my personal opinion of you as a player cloud my judgement. But with every post it became clearer and clearer.

This just reads fake and overly dramatic, the whole post does. He's blowing something out of proportion to give himself a reason to vote Nero. The follow-up posts are even worse.

I'm not moving my vote. I'm not moving it if it kills me.

Because I'd rather be dead than exist in a game where people like you can act like you do and get away with it.

Nothing you say makes any sense. You are lying about fucking EVERYTHING.

And when I flip town anyone who is

paying attention

, anyone who has

any sense

, anyone who

uses any logic whatsoever

will know that you are scum and lynch your scummy ass.

Sadly for this game that probably means no one will vote you.

This is just bad. So overly dramatic and so manipulative. He's assuming an anti-town position by being stubborn and only wanting to contribute for one lynch, which means we'll have a harder time lynching anyone else, though that's not the worse. The worse is that appeal he makes by saying anyone that won't realize Nero is scum isn't paying attention, has no sense and doesn't use logic. - He's basically calling us all dumb because we can't see how town he is and how scum Nero is. I guess what he means is that we'd feel pretty dumb if we lynched a town him, but if we don't think he is town then I think the risk is worth taking.

So, now we have ThAd being stubbornly useless and people saying he's town because no scum would do that. BS.

[SnowStorm]

I'm seeing you as weakly town from some of your posting, but I agree with zero of your scumreads.

3 of the people being discussed for lynch today are in your null pile. Perhaps using some of the 94 pages of posts to refine that null, or give an in-depth reason for the null.

Why don't we discuss the 3 people that are on my scum list instead? I'd much prefer lynching those than anyone I have a null read on.

I've only ISO'ed pisskop and Way. Still null. I wouldn't wept tears for their lynch, but as I said, I'd much rather lynch one of my scum reads.

I don't really want to lynch any of my null reads today and I'm not going to provide any in-depth reasons for those reads because I don't really see a point for it, I mean, it's not like those reads have any depth.

[SnowStorm]

PA is acting like scum aren't capable of faking rage or frustration and that it is obviously town because he had no reason to do it as scum either. Whenever ThAd's concerned he just takes things at face value. His interpretations fit what I think are ThAd's intentions, but I don't think they fit PA's thought process. What I liked about PA was involved, he asked questions and interacted with people, to me his posts demonstrate a level of involvement thinking and experience that does not match some of his opinions. Sometimes, like in this case, he just seems to be dumbing down to achieve the reads he wants. In this post he's basically saying. "Look at ThAd's rage and emotion. Emotion is town. ThAd's town!" It's just so simplistic and the way it's written is manipulative. "Do YOU see how town that is? YOu don't wanna vote that!".

First of all, its not like this is the only reason I've been calling Thad town. I've been pretty open about townreading Thad for most of this Day phase, this is just another reason to see it. Accusing me of dumbing down my reads has absolutely no base and is pretty terrible. Im not going to write a 5 paragraph essay about why Thad being recalcitrant makes him more likely to be town than scum and its not an amazing argument on its own anyhow. Combined with everything else I've seen today? Yes. ITs a reason to townread him, much like its a reason to townread Snork but you didn't give a shit when I called Snork town for very similar reasons.

I'm not saying this was your only reason, I'm saying it's a bad one and one which you didn't put any thought into. Ok, dumbing down might not be the most accurate expression, what I mean is that you're being selective on your reasons, which I guess I called dumbing down because I think you're ignoring good town/scum reasons in favor of worse ones, which don't make sense; it's as if you're ignoring the things that make sense in order to achieve the read you want to have. Like with your suspicion on me. You had a town read on me on day 1. Day 2 you vote me for no reason and later say my reactions gave you a reason to stay with your vote on me. You ignore all my previous posts to focus on a couple you didn't like for some unknown reason. "scum caught for the wrong reasons", that's straight up bullshit, the kind scum throw at townies when they want to jump on their wagon but can't find any logical reason to do so naturally. Then "you're desperate" and "OMGUS", more bullshit reasons that mean nothing. You just scum read me for no reason and showed no intention in understanding me or reassessing your read on me. And you're still voting me, for no reason! And now you're just gonna say "waitaminute, I have reason, I don' like these posts you made after I voted you". Which is the Bullshitiest thing ever!

So, I didn't want to deviate from the subject, but that's just how bad your suspicion of me is and it's an example of you ignoring the logical stuff in favor of whatever it is that fits your scum needs.

Moving on, what's Snork got to do with this? Did Snork post an overly dramatic wall in which he OMGUS's someone who suspects him and refuses to lynch anyone else?

Also, you flatout refusing to comment on TWIE is absurd and pretty hypocritical if you are going to accuse me of "dumbing down" my stance on Thadmiral. I find it hard to believe you have actually nothing to say about TWIE/Pmatt if you just ISOd them. I mean really? Did you or did you not just read all those posts and if so, you sure are dumbing down your read on the slot by refusing to say anything about them, I dont care if the conclusions is "Dunno, Null".

When did I refuse to comment on TWIE? I said I had a null read on him, even after ISO'ing him. What do you want me to say? "I kinda like this post, then I kinda don't. I kinda think he might be scum and town." Yeah, I don't think there's much to say about null reads, they're null for some reason! I don't see how I'm dumbing down by giving a null read on that slot, probably because I'm not, much like I'm not refusing to comment on him. Way to twist things, huh?

This just reads fake and overly dramatic, the whole post does. He's blowing something out of proportion to give himself a reason to vote Nero. The follow-up posts are even worse.

What is he blowing out of proportion? Nero has been tunneling on him for a while and, much like Snork who you seem to not give a shit about, Thad has been trying to get RM lynched to no end and reporting frustration about that. Why is Thatds frustration over done? Why is Snork's not? You argue with me about how emotion isn't town (and sort of imply its null) but then go off to paint Thad as scummy for this emotion because....? You flatout said:

PA is acting like scum aren't capable of faking rage or frustration

which is to say that rage/frustration is often genuine and town in the first place.

He's blowing his reasons to suspect Nero out of proportion. They're not something that could logically warrant his attitude of refusing to lynch anyone but Nero. They're not the epiphany he's playing it out to be. It is dramatically blown out of proportion.
Again, wtf does Snork have do do with this? Why do you think I should have the same opinions about ThAd's and Snork's behavior when they're two completely different players, whom I have completely different reads on?
I don't think rage/frustration/emotion are town tells (well, it depends on the player), but they're usually generally seen as town tells, because it is often genuine. In ThAd's case, I don't think his frustration is a scum tell because I don't think he had any good reasons to be frustrated and I think his acts of frustration are a mean to get town cred to make use of the general belief that emotion is town. Through his frustration he's also giving himself excuses to tunnel people and do nothing else. - Something I don't see Snork doing. - So yeah, I don't see how that comes from town.

He's assuming an anti-town position by being stubborn

Once again, Thad is not the only person to do that in this game, so your push here is selective scumhunting.

Is it? Who else is refusing to vote anyone but one player who's generally town read? I must have ignored them when I decided to selectively scum-hunt ThAd.

He's basically calling us all dumb because we can't see how town he is and how scum Nero is.

Yes and? Why is that scum motivated exactly, this is something people who are upset are likely to say. I know I can do this as both alignments although would be more likely to get indignant and pissed and call people idiots so I can mock them later as town.

It's an appeal and a bad one. He's not insulting us because he's frustrated with us. He's insulting us as a way to make us side with him. I don't like it and I don't like the way he does it. It doesn't give me any town feelings.

This is just bad. So overly dramatic and so manipulative.

Why is it manipulative? What is he doing that is manipulative? Getting Nero Cain lynched for shit reasons? fuck no, I dont think anyone could realistically expect Nero to be lynched Today..even remotely. IF you think hes specifically going for towncred here by fake raging...ok? You really have no base for thinking its that over it being legitimate (which scum rage often is anyways).

It's manipulative because he's appealing to our sense of possible future shame to not lynch him. I don't for a second believe he actually thought he could get Nero lynched. This whole thing is about him putting on a show to gain town cred. He's not trying to convince us to vote Nero, he's trying to convince us not to vote him.

[SnowStorm]

If you think ThAd is scum, then you'll need to show it. 2296 is ThAd spelling out reasons why he's calling bullshit on Nero's read. Since you disputed none of it, I take it you agree with his take on it?
Hint: "I don't like his tone/emotion/font color" is not the same as examining his argument.

WTF? How about you read my posts. I explain my scum read on ThAd and the reasons behind it in like every other post I make.

[SnowStorm]

These seem to be the bulk of what I bothered looking for. I guess to sum it up, I don't see the same things you are in ThAd's posting. Having different opinions about who is scum is not scummy if they can explain the thought processes to reach them. Both of ThAd's cases do that.

You should have bothered to read more then. So you're saying that bad opinions that have a thought process behind them are not scummy? Thus can't come from scum? Thus you're saying scum don't think? You're not making any sense. ThAd had an opinion I didn't like, I found it scummy. He explained it, demonstrating his thought process, but just because there is one it doesn't mean I have to accept it or that I have to disregard it as a scum tell, after all, I think it's a thought process that fits scum more than it fits town.

See, nulls at this point are because
1. They have posts that seem town and that seem scum, and those posts move your reads in that direction. In which case, specifics help us understand YOU.
2. You're scum, and it's a hell of a lot easier to have nulls than to make up fake reads.
3. Some other good reason, which you can explain in detail, which helps us understand YOU.

There, we talked about your scumreads.
Since none of them are today's lynch, talk about Mastin, TheWayItEnds, and projectmatt.

4. I have not yet formed a strong opinion on them.

I don't care if you can't understand me because I have null reads. I have plenty of other reads and posts that you can use to understand me and judge me.
We didn't talk about my scum-reads, you commented on the brief explanations I wrote as a guide to my reads as if they were THE reasons for them and disregarded them completely. You're not dictating the lynch and I have already said I have no strong opinions on those three players or intention to lynch them today, so if you do want to talk with me, lets go back to talking about ThAd, AP and Damon.

Speaking of Damon. I found it pretty amusing that pisskop called him Demon_Gant. I only noticed that when I ISO'ed him a while ago.

[SnowStorm]

AP and PV's "look at Thad be angry. That's soooooooooo town." Which is IGNORING the fact that he's been ignoring all of the day phase and specifically parking/placing votes on wagons that won't happen.

How the hell is

THAT

town?! His rage thing reads fake and is like a big OMGUS. If Thad flips scumthen I'll prob want a PV/AP lynch. Might even go for Yates who was all like "vote parking is scummy" but ignores the fuck out of Thad sitting on Rach all day...

^this, with it I agree.

If anyone has a problem with this lynch, explain why, because I haven't seen a single good reason to believe that ThAd is town.

Everything about him is ridiculously town, even if not sheeping-town. Look at his posts from his perspective. They're not calculated. They're not artificial. They're not precise. These are all traits of a scum ThAd. They're impulsive. Rash. Emotional. Argumentive rather than manipulative. He's not trying to push an agenda; he's frustrated about the game. His posting looks genuine, like he's trying to figure out the game.

Like, I'm just about as disjointed from the game as can be, yet I can tell all of this basically instantly.

I disagree, but I'd like it if you could point out a previous game where he showed those traits as scum.

I dont see how Snow is pulling "Thad is being manipulative" out of this. There is really no direct point to Thad doing this as scum, unless you want to argue hes just trying to look town by doing something townie. But making that distinction is gonna take more backing than "its overdone" cause saying Thad is being manipulative is... well...manipulative.

That manipulative bit was a really minor point and you're talking about it as if it was a main one. It's another example of your dumbing down, since you're ignoring all the other points I've raised against ThAd and focusing on the least important one, which only applied to his appeal. You also show that you do understand that I think ThAd is playing to get town-cred and not to catch scum, but you couldn't get that from the manipulative bit so why is that the thing you mention? Yeah, dumbing down.

@ snork: It doesn't matter what I do you will read it as more "proof" that I'm scum.
I make a case against someone - "you're going after people that look scummy/low hanging fruit"
I blow up against nero - "you're faking it"

I bet you if I didn't make any cases I'd be scum for lurking.
I bet you if I was all chill with nero I'd be scum for "sounding too calm" or some bs

It's not just a matter of what you are doing, it's also HOW you are doing it.

Your reasons boil down to: "he's scum because I think he's scum and I don't agree with him"

When you over-simplify things like that, all reasons do boil down to that, bar he ones that involve scum-slips, partner analysis or claims.

[SnowStorm]

PeregrineV has done a lot to further his town credentials since I last posted I think. Not sure why people are suspecting him. I have basically no understanding of the case on penguin_alien. Projectmatt I can understand more with his horribly non-commital posting, someone said something about "not making enemies", and that's pretty much what I think. However:

Unvote: SnowStorm
Vote: TheWayItEnds

This is the wagon I like. I think Peregrine did a lot to advance this case. I always felt uncomfortable with pisskop but I couldn't quite place why. With TWIE's play being scummy in my opinion, it has definitely cleared up my feeling about this slot.

What did Peregrine do to advance the case on Way? I'm not seeing it.

[SnowStorm]

Pretty sure both JOATs are town.

Can we please stop arguing about the JOATs? We're not lynching either of them today.

Scum will probably kill whichever of them is town and sort it out for us.

Agree. x2

[SnowStorm]

About projectmatt. I've ISO'ed him and I still can't get a good read on him. I could easily go him either way. I also ISO'ed two past games of him, one town and one scum and the only conclusion I could reach was that he is disengaged. IMO, lyching him is a shot in the dark. What's the case on him even?

[SnowStorm]

Deas, you are assuming that projectmatt plays scum a certain way.

Snow's meta of him suggests he doesn't play scum the way you assume he would.

Huh? What did my meta on him suggest?

[SnowStorm]

VOTE: AngryPigeon.

I'm fine with lynching him soon. I'm not really a fan of letting claimed-scum chat for too long.

I might check this later, but I still believe in the vig claim. It doesn't look like it came from an SK. I mean, it's such a terribly obvious SK fake-claim. And I think the existence of a gunsmith (working as Snork described it) and a town vig would be more balanced. If there's no town vig, the gunsmith might as well just be a cop, right? The town vig gives the SK a scapegoat and a possible fake-guilty result to the gunsmith, which would increase the SK's chances of survival/winning.

I've never played with a gunsmith and I have limited experience with SK's, but I think that makes sense.

[SnowStorm]

I need to re-read some stuff, but the players who currently worry me the most are ThAd, Peregrine and Damon, to a lesser extent. I'm not as sold on scum-ThAd as I was before, but I think he'd also make sense as an SK. Peregrine is mostly PoE, he was in the null pile, which has mostly sorted itself out with mastin and Yates flipping scum and Way being cleared by Snork, so I need to check him. Egg was on the null pile too iirc, but I'm not as worried about him. Damon, I still find him very scummy, but I'm not sure if he'd fit as a partner to the flipped scum or as an SK, so I really need to check him.

[SnowStorm]

Prod-dodge.

[SnowStorm]

Sorry. I haven't had much time this week and I'm not too worried about the game in its current state.

My reads haven't changed. I'd still like to go over some ISO's but that'll have to wait a little more. I'd also like to do those before lynching anyone.

[SnowStorm]

VOTE: ThAd.

I can't shake away my scum read on him and I can't find anything that could point towards him not being partnered with mastin/Yates/AP. There was mastin's town read on him, which I thought could be a point in his favor given that she was town-reading town players a lot with little explanation, but it's possible that she'd throw in a partner in those unexplained town reads. Then there was Yates's "bussing" prior to his demise, after checking that I don't think he was bussing ThAd, I think he was just staying consistent, besides, he was in a pretty good spot after mastin's flip, a ThAd scum flip could prove to be more beneficial to him in the long term.

Another thing that makes me keep pushing for this lynch is the fact that no apparent scum voted for him or pushed for his lynch when he was viable on day 2.

ThAdmiral [4 votes] (SnowStorm, RachMarie, Egg, Nero Cain)
TheWayItEnds [3 votes] (DeasVail, mastin2, PeregrineV)
SnowStorm [3 votes] (penguin_alien, Angry Pidgeon, Damon_Gant)
Nero Cain [2 votes] (ThAdmiral, SiX)
AngryPidgeon [1 vote] (TheWayItEnds)
mastin2 [1 vote] (Yates)
projectmatt [1 vote] (4nxi3ty)

2 playes are not voting: {projectmatt, Snork}

At this point AP is defending ThAd and explaining how his Nero-rage was so town. He also tells Yates that he doesn't like the mastin lynch and asks him about ThAd, which I would interpret as "lets give it a shot at mislynching thAd" if he weren't defending him so hard, so it could also be a "tell them how town ThAd is" call. It's just weird that both my wagon and Way's peaked with more votes, which included scum votes, while ThAd's never got more than 4 and no scum votes (unless Egg??...).

I don't buy that scum would not want to try lynch ThAd because he was so obviously town, like mastin argued, because he wasn't. He was suspected by enough people that his lynch was still possible without much scum interference. So the fact that scum didn't push for his lynch is weird, scummy weird.

[SnowStorm]

But Snow, why would ThAd try to get Nero lynched together with RachMarie and when it didn't go through, suddenly shoot Nero?
ThAd wouldn't have gained anything from killing Nero Cain. More preferably RM in that case.

Rach looked like a possible mislynch when he started pushing her. I doubt he thought he could lynch Nero, that push reads like an attempt at getting some town cred, which is confirmed by AP townreading it without even questioning it (it was one of those dumbed-down moments of him. It doesn't make sense that he'd dumb down to townread town for a bad reason).

As to why he NK'ed them, both became conf. town, they were optimal kills even for him. Keeping them both alive would have been dumb, and for what? It'd be even dumber to keep pushing them. Besides, he's in a team, even if NK'ing someone may not be beneficial to one of them it could be to the others, in this case it was beneficial to everyone.

[SnowStorm]

I think I'd rather lynch Damon than Pere. I don't really oppose to his lynch since I don't get any strong town vibes from his posts, but I just find ThAd and Damon to be much scummier.

I've given many chances to my Damon read, but every time I get back to him I can't help getting a scum read. His posts suck, his reads suck and his pushes suck! And not in a sucky-town way. I also don't get a scum-hunting feeling from his posts and he fits as a partner to mastin/AP/Yates.

If anyone seriously has a town read on him, please explain.

[SnowStorm]

and he fits as a partner to mastin/AP/Yates.

How so?

Interactions, reads and votes. In his first posts he comments on how he disagrees with mastin and how he doesn't like her reaction to his first post. He describes her play as "bleh" and her reads as "garbage" and accuses her of spoon-feeding us her meta. He explains why he disagrees with her reads and then instead of voting mastin he votes Luca? I mean, what was the point of that focus on mastin if it didn't lead to anything? She was voting him and calling him scum, he disagreed with her reads and mumbled about her play and whether or not it fit her meta and stuff. Then he confirms he had a gut scum read on her but that after checking her meta became a town read. He also checked Luca's meta and became happy with his vote on him. So on one hand he had mastin, whom he suspected with reason and in the other he had Luca, whom he was voting for because he felt his vote was "more useful" there (than on bjc). And the one thing that makes him chose one over the other is meta. Very convenient. It's also worth noting that Damon hasn't played in 2 years, so his meta reads come solely from their past games and not from his experience; also worth noting that his meta read of Luca was pretty inconclusive:

"Luca pretty much doesn't have a meta, with as far as I could see, only 1 finished game to speak of. None of Luca's posts from that one game read as scummy as the one post Luca has here. I reiterate - I'm happy with my vote."

In conclusion, it's pretty odd that he'd rather vote someone who had barely any content, than push for someone whom he did apparently suspect with good reason, only because of some questionable meta reading.

More, later on day 2, mastin keeps pushing him and he keeps disagreeing with her. See how in this post he turns another good reason to suspect mastin, into a reason to suspect me (whom he ended up voting in his next post):

Spoiler:

It

was

vanity, as far as I'm concerned the whole charade of staying off the main wagons was vanity for all those involved, and it's the kind of posturing that I am wary of.

Except I was right:
Both wagons were on town.

Thus, attempting to get a wagon

not

on one of them wasn't vanity; it was sanity.

Wow, I didn't realise this! Both wagons did turn out to be on town! Well I'll be blown. Of course,

you placed your vote on another incorrect wagon so whatever. As I said, I think not being on either of those two wagons on Day 1 does not even begin to give town cred of any sort. The most likely people to be "right" about that sort of thing are scum in my opinion.

Later in that post you did say possibly the first thing I agree with you about though. SnowStorm's recent posting has been very scummy in my eyes. This is a lead I'm going to chase down and try and pinpoint exactly

what

has changed about SnowStorm's posting that has made me feel like this, because I don't find reasonless accusations of scumminess to be very useful.

So here we have two cases where he starts by going against mastin and manages to end up voting someone else. On day one he ended up on Luca when he was explaining how he disagreed with mastin's town read of Luca. On day two he ended up on me when he was pointing out how staying off the main D1 wagons, like mastin did, was scummy.

Damon/Yates: Some mild interaction. He called Yates a lurker, got called out on it and retracted it, admitted it was a mistake. (maybe it wasn't? maybe he did know Yates had been lurking?). Yates is a little more aggressive with him and accuses him of scum-slipping, but he stays very passive and polite and denies having Yates as a scum read. There's nothing wrong with being polite, but I get the feeling that Damon didn't want to go against Yates, which could have led to him having to scum read him.

Damon/AP: His interactions with AP aren't very meaningful and are very passive. So there's no reason to rule out this pairing either.

Lets look at these two posts now with general tiers and reads:

Spoiler:

Day one:

Scum: Luca, aptil, 4nxiety, SnowStorm, bjc
Null: Pisskop, mastin, Nero, yourself [MR/PA], Rach, Yates, DV
Townreads to some degree: Everyone else

day 2: (with bonus mastin slightly scum read)

My thoughts on mastin are that I'm leaning slightly scum - a lot of really odd reads and very keen to dissociate herself from the wagons yesterday. If you'd like to tell me what is so

interesting

about my "hops" (very suggestive word that I don't think fairly portrays the very different ways I entered those 3 wagons) then I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.

As I'm struggling to provide too much meaningful content to this game at this juncture, here's a list of where I roughly stand on every player. Hopefully it sparks some discussion, and I'm happy to discuss any point in more detail.

4nx

: has been a consistent scumread of mine but something about his play today and reading his meta has made me feel meh.

weak scum

AP

: Didn't think he came off well from his argument with Snork defending Rach. Everything else is fine though.

null

aptil

: The claim.

strong town

DV

: If some players have a naturally scummy tone, I feel like DV has a naturally town tone. When I carefully try to discard that,

null

Egg

: Not much to say about Egg, but about the predecessor I myself liked the fake vig incident and am

moderate town

mastin

: I've said what I had to say about mastin.

leaning scum

Nero

: Has tunnelled the Mister Rogers/penguin_alien slot. Really difficult for me to get a read on.

null

penguin_alien

: People started strong townreading this slot early on - including myself - but it got to the point where so many did this I felt uneasy. penguin_alien came in, played a lot less like obvtown, and yet now I feel happier about this slot because the contribution seems more genuinely protown, at least to me.

leaning town

PeregrineV

: I definitely felt like he was town on Day 1, but I'm struggling to locate the posts in his ISO that lead me to this. I've used the phrase "provocative in the right ways" before and that's roughly how I felt here I think. So far Day 2 he has been meh.

leaning town

projectmatt

: Coasting hard. Sometimes posts like town, sometimes not so much like in #605 where he claims there were "bigger fish to fry" than Luca on Day 1 but fails to name anyone.

null

RachMarie

: The worst vote on the Luca wagon yesterday. Calls pisskop "the scum off both wagons" on Day 1 - but pisskop wasn't really around to make a decision on these wagons so how he can be implicated for this is absurd. Nully play otherwise,

leaning scum

Snork

: Not a fan of bjc, the predecessor to his slot, but Snorks seems protown to me - genuine scumhunting.

moderate town

SnowStorm

: My vote is here for reasons I have stated.

moderate scum

ThAd

: As he noted in #2114, my read on him has been here and there. I think it's a matter of a problem I have with his posting style. He's made some good posts, and I'm

leaning town

right now.

TWIE

: I could not get a read off pisskop for the life of me - but he made me feel uneasy. TWIE also makes me feel very uneasy for similar reasons. This excess of sarcasm. His last post, #2117 is horrible - and perhaps the one post of TWIE's I can point to and say that it's definitely indicative of scum.

leaning scum

Yates

: Honestly no idea what to think of this, and the subject of my next detailed ISO read.

null

Lots of "leaning" going on, but this is just honesty. Few of my reads are particularly strong at this juncture - but then from my observation I think the same is true of most people in this game.

Notice how in day one all of his scum reads are town and how Yates and mastin are so awkwardly comfortable in his null tier. It's as if he didn't know what to do with them, as if he was afraid to give a solid town read on mastin and afraid to give a scum read on Yates.

Now the second post: Look how mastin is a scum lean now. He mentions her having really odd reads, which he had noted early day one and dismissed due to meta, but now for some reason he felt the need to lean scum on her. It's a pretty safe/weak scum read. Now look how AP and Yates are both null. I actually think his Yates read was accurate in the sense that he didn't know what to do with it, but AP's? Everything's fine except for an argument where he defended Rach. It looks like scum-awareness, plus he might have felt the need to point out he didn't like it because he was scum reading Rach, probably implying a possible connection between the two. Meaning that if Rach were to flip, the negative point on AP would be nullified. Overall those reads were all pretty weak, pretty foggy, leaving plenty of room. Also to note again that except for his slight scum read on mastin every other scum read is town.

Overall, his stance on the three flipped scum, especially mastin, is very odd and much more likely to come from a scum partner than from a town player, even from one having a bad game. Not to mention his non-existent scum-hunting; his safe, passive attitude and his bad scum-reads, oh and his scummy as hell posting/writing style.

[SnowStorm]

I doubt he thought he could lynch Nero, that push reads like an attempt at getting some town cred, which is confirmed by AP townreading it without even questioning it

You seem to have forgotten what AP flipped.

Let me remind you.

HE WAS SCUM.

So this really doesn't make sense.

I have completely lost my train of thought on this game. It's dragging out unnecessarily. Who are we lynching today? I'll vote where Ffery votes.

FFS Snork, get a hold of yourself. There's no need to rush, we have time to think and that's what we're doing (I speak for myself at least) and I'm not just going to blindly follow you, Ff or anyone else, you shouldn't either.

Now, are you saying scum do not town read each other? Yeah, you're clearly not following my thought process. ThAd's Nero-rage read unnecessary, fake and anti-town to me. I'm still of the opinion that he did it to get town cred, going from the principle that emotion/rage/stubbornes are generally seen as town traits. I did not think it was genuine at all and I didn't think a ton player would so easily town read him for it, which AP did, AP, someone who appeared to be thoughtful and rational town read that awful post without a second thought. Now why would scum town read something that actually looked bad? Something that could have been used against ThAd eventually. I'm inclined to think that they wouldn't. But that's not why that's scummy. What's scummy was that AP automatically gave thAd the town cred he was looking for with that post, not only that, he spells it out to us.

Do YOU see Thad's latest bout of frustration aimed specifically at Nero being from scum? That emotion is pretty hard to fake and I dont see why scum would do something so likely to draw attention, especially from Nero who is tentatively voting people who arent Thad. Its just town rage. Pretty sure.

See how he emphasizes how un-scumlike that post was. He's not exactly explaining why it was a town post, he's implying that by saying how it is so not a scum post. This is really naive. He straight up denies the fact that scum try to mimic town behavior in order to look town, which is basic mafia, and he does so to call ThAd town. As I said previously, this was one of the instances where AP dumbed down in order to achieve a specific opinion/read, convenient to him. It was not convenient for him to dumb down to town-read town, especially considering how bad ThAd's posts was (even from a town POV) and how bad dumbing down makes him look. But it would be convenient for him to town-read ThAd and help him get some town cred from other players.

[SnowStorm]

I don't really know what else there is to say. I'm happy to lynch one of damon, pere or penguin alien, preferably in that order.

Why that order?

[SnowStorm]

Damon next

Can it be quicker than the previous one? I mean, do you really need to link and quote every single mention if you're not making any observations? Just give us your conclusions backed up with the more relevant ones or a general explanation.

[SnowStorm]

I'm getting tired of waiting too. I've been waiting for Pere to post his reads but he hasn't posted anything yet, and as much as I'd prefer a ThAd or Damon lynch over his, this lack of activity is not really helping his case...

[SnowStorm]

My thoughts are in order. I will do some review overnight before taking my shot.

Any questions for me?

Are you going to ISO ThAd? (Or have you already?) I'd like to know what you think of mastin's read on him, since you seem to have some experience with her meta, because that read is the only question mark I have on my ThAd scum read. Does that read fit her scum meta? Or would she have a good reason to town-read a town-Thad, even if he didn't really look town?

[SnowStorm]

HA! I knew it! Good job guys!

And thank you for the game, Pless!

Also a shout-out to fferyllt who I would be very tempted to call MVP despite replacing very late in the game and with hindsight at a point when the game was already won for town.

I agree. So a special thanks to fferyllt, for her time and effort spent in the game, it was crucial to our win today.