NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

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Skimmed to ~pg 17; now reading in full. @page 12.

Looking at the most recent VC, I'm disappointed the DG wagon dissolved.

REALLY want to point at this:

Damon is town.
talah is town
ThAd is town.
Yates is town.
Rogers is town.

At the point this was posted, these are

Really Bad Reads

^TM.

Current town core consists of {mastin, snow, zd, DV}
pmatt, 4nx, MR, and Yates are coming in close to being included there.

Scum reads {DG, Thad, PV, Talah} in order of strength.

BC's reaction was not townie at all, imo. Yates hit it on the nose. It does NOT look organic. In fact:

Fair enough. At least I'm just VT, yo. I assume I can post until I'm actually dead? At least that's what I got from the rules.

this looks a lot more like he's trying to add credibility to the reaction by pretending to have uncertainty about whether he's dead or not, and whether the rules indicate he can post or not. This isn't exactly how I want to say this, cuz it really doesn't explain how this reads to me, but it certainly does not come across as genuine. Also, I'd expect an angrier reaction from town. Something with a bit more indignation; not feigned ignorance and nonchalance.

So, BC is a second-degree scumread, along with Rach.

About Rach: Originally, I really liked the whole "why are you townreading me" bit, but that's such a simple thing to throw out at anyone regardless of alignment. What dropped her from a fairly strong town read to could-be-scum is the utter lack of contribution following her acknowledgment that most people in the thread at the time were, in fact, town reading her. Doesn't feel right.

I'm having huge problems with anyone town reading DG.

---

Finishing my read through, and will post more in-depth details on the above reads as soon as I'm done. I've just been really excited to get those out as I've been reading and not able to post since I wasn't actually replaced in yet.

VOTE: DG

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Also, I know I'm missing people but I'm not quite caught up on the replacements just yet. I left out doc/luca cuz their presence in the thread at the point I'm currently reading is like non-existent and they will need closer inspection.

OH aptil. I forgot aptil. He's in my original town list and I can't remember why, and at this moment, I don't feel he belongs there. Not sure where he belongs yet. More soon.

-pedit: thanks?

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What is OTT? I've seen it twice now.

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What is OTT? I've seen it twice now.

Nevermind. I googled. Couldn't get past post 396.

I was trying to refrain from posting responses to stuff that happened many pages ago, but I have some questions.

The biggest thing on my mind right now (page 16) is

@AP

: You were pushing Talah pretty aggressively, but then agreed with his stance on Yates' observation on the vig gambit. I was curious about the tonal change there. What is your current read on Talah?

This:

I'm not buying the "fake vig". Nor the "town reaction". But I'll have to take a look back to see what exactly irked me about it.

Unf. Talk to me about this. I agree and Im concerned that Yates is the only other person to step up to the plate on this one.

Also, I'm confused about what the stink was regarding Zd? I think it was MR that commented to AP that he rattled Zd pretty badly with his push, and I agree, but I really felt the reaction was quite town, and maintain my read on him. I actually find the wagonshift to Zd really, really, really odd.

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Let's look at this a different way...
When is the last time you saw a fake vig shot catch scum?
OR - since this will give you are larger pool - when is the last time you saw a fake hammer catch scum?
Cripes, in ALL the REAL hammers you have seen - in what % of those hammers [excluding end game] did the scum just give up the ghost and go "awe shucks - you caught me. Good job!"

THIS is my point. Some of you [you specifically] are acting like your WIFOM bomb of nullness is some sort of game changer. THAT is what I can't wrap my head around.

THIS POST.

IS AWESOME.

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I really dislike pisskop right now.

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I hope it's one of pisskop, thad or talah. Pisskop's 702 was such a skeevy jump onto you after several people

just happened

to be discussing whether their reads on you and pmatt voted you. It's like a hot pink neon flashing sign.

That's where I'm at btw - page 29. So close. I really want to start talking to people directly.

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EBWOP: remove the word "whether" from the second sentence and it will make sense.

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Like, he didn't even bother entering the discussion. He just took his opportunity to slip in a vote.

p-edit: About why you're a huge sack of scum? Plenty. I'll get to it.

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Another top detective, deducing that voting for a scumread is scummy.

I'm sure others in this thread are not so dense to think that is the only reason you are scum, as you would have us believe. Either you are and actually think this is the case, or you're scum trying to discredit yet another player who has caught onto your complete disconnect with the game.

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I don't need meta. Your reads are all flipped, which is a huge indicator. Your votes are the picture of opportunistic because they don't come with any analysis, reasoning, or justification that anyone can follow. And you've pushed things out of context despite being reminded repeatedly. Against all logic you continue to follow this pattern. Town may stumble but eventually they catch onto something that resonates. You haven't.

So, I mean, do you just have really bad reads? Or what?

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Your reads are all flipped, which is a huge indicator. Your votes are the picture of opportunistic because they don't come with any analysis, reasoning, or justification that anyone can follow. And you've pushed things out of context despite being reminded repeatedly.

Do explain who ive flipped on. Also which votes lack reasoning tgat wasnt previously presented. Also what ooc material i repeatedly push.

Somebody is stretching a vague push.

Case in point - you aren't even reading what you're responding to.

I said: Your reads are flipped.
You said: Do explain who I've flipped on.
-- If you cannot see the difference between these two, then I cannot help you. Your reads are flipped = you are scumreading town and town reading scum. Not "flipping on people".

I said: Your votes are opportunistic

because

they are not paired with analysis

that can be followed

.
You said: Which votes lack reasoning.
-- Again, if you cannot see the difference here, there is no explaining it to you. And for that matter, I do not need to explain it to you, just to others. I didn't say your votes lack reasoning. It's very easy to come up with a reason to vote anyone. But your stated reasons don't make sense with what's actually happened, and it does not match my impression of the game state. That is a red flag.

I said: You pushed things [read: game events, quotes, etc] out of context despite being reminded repeatedly.
You said: What OOC material I repeatedly push
-- I don't know if you're deliberately skewing what I've said or if you legitimately don't understand what is being stated. You have taken quotes (notably MR's and Yates) and removed essential context in order to make them appear scummy when if you put them back in the context of the conversation in the thread at that time, your entire argument falls apart. I did not say you repeatedly pushed OOC material. Though tbf, this is probably the closest you actually came to answering my points coherently.

And I'm not even pushing you. Yates responded to my comment on you; I replied because I can't help myself and I want to get to talking to people already. But yeah, I do think you're scum, and when I'm good and ready, and willing, I'll put together the exact and definite reasons why, with evidence.

For now, I'm focusing on finishing my read of the thread, and then I'm going to bed, because I do actually have to work in the morning.

p-edit: Your anxiety vote. The moment other people started wondering about him, you slipped in there like no one would notice.

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I'm actually going to bed now cuz this game is an exhausting read. I'm at Nero's post 757. I'll finish tomorrow and put the rest of my stuff together.

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Well the other two points are you commenting about my take on matt and not liking my call on AP.

I was wondering about your "fuck you -ish" attitude statement, actually. And you used that to claim you had a "Townish" read on bjc for displaying it. I just found that odd.

bjc seems like a 'fuck you' guy. In addition to what I've already said. Until he posts something that looks scummy to me - I have him town leaning.

Might lynch:
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Here you go:

VOTE: Talah

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- Defending people without reason
- Attacking people for attacking other people you aren't even town reading
- "I'm so lost!" followed by "You fucks obviously need time to work things out".
- Illogical reversals without explanation

Should I continue? I can get quotes if you like.

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You might find my reads repulsive because I have your buddies in the doghouse. So, your comment is really rather inconsequential.

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I also find it funny that Talah finds my reads from page 12 repulsive, switched from town-reading the slot that had no content, to "might lynch" without ever interacting with me at all.

Good scumhunting bro.

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My main?

And you don't seem to read so well. The reads you are referring to, the only reads I've posted so far, are reads I acquired from reading the thread

up to page 12

which I had pretty explicitly stated. It wasn't like that was a hidden fact or anything. I'm still on page 33 right now in fact and have to post an updated analysis.

Instead of querying me on whether I'd finished, or if my reads had changed, knowing they were from events that occurred over 20 pages ago, you flip your position without explanation and without any attempt at sorting why your read changed.

See, when I start to feel someone is more town or less town, I usually know why, and I ask them about that why so i can determine if it's something valid. You didn't bother doing that. You know, you didn't bother trying to determine if I was actually scum or not. You threw me in that "might lynch" list because... ? Because you didn't like my reads? From page 12?

Come on now.

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Ah that reminds, I've actually changed my mind about Pisskop. I kind of liked the way he responded to me last night. I think his reads are pretty bad but I can see what he's doing.

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DeasVail, would you mind giving your perspective of DG and Talah?

Also -

Bipolar Chemist is still playing this game?

p-edit: Why anyone is pushing MR is outside my ability to understand. His intentions are so transparent. Another reason Talah is scum. MR comes around to scumreading him, and voila, MR is a magical lynch option. I'm sure Pisskop's misguided attention towards him helped Talah decide this was a good idea.

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Who are your scumreads again?

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Ignore dumb post. Pisskop, 4nx and aptil.

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Shitty and obtuse? Strong language. Why are they shitty and obtuse?

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So why didn't you ask me to clarify?

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p-edit: Why anyone is pushing MR is outside my ability to understand. His intentions are so transparent. Another reason Talah is scum. MR comes around to scumreading him, and voila, MR is a magical lynch option.

This is a pretty bad reason to be scumreading talah. The only reason for him to be scumreading MR is because he as scum would want to look town from it. No way someone like talah as scum actually thinks he has a chance of lynching MR.

I don't think that's the point, imo. Assuming Talah is scum, I don't think his intention here is to mislynch MR. I think his intention is to split votes and make noise. I disagree with you that it's a bad reason to scumread Talah. I don't see the logic behind Talah's sudden attack on MR. It doesn't make sense to me given the history in the thread. I also think that had Pisskop not already been making a push on MR, Talah might have addressed MR's suspicion of him differently, in the way he addressed others' suspicions of him. I feel that Talah's attack on MR is purely OMGUS and not based in reality. I think that is mostly a null tell, mostly, but when compared with all the other reasons I am scumreading Talah, it fits and does not dispel my previous suspicious.

p-edit: Oh yeah. Luca. Well, that's the biggest reason I'm currently scumreading Talah. Using Luca as an excuse not to scumhunt or vote anyone else is just so bad.

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Talah, let's assume you're town. Just blanket alignment trust, for a moment.

Besides MR, who is the scum on your wagon right now?

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And you're not allowed to say "Snork" either because I already know that's false. I am looking to get your perspective on the others.

p-edit: I don't have a main.

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Talah, let's assume you're town. Just blanket alignment trust, for a moment.

Besides MR, who is the scum on your wagon right now?

I'd rather leave that for a moment and see how this thing pans out.

I'd rather we had an honest discourse.

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EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

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I get what MR is saying with 992.

Talah, let's assume you're town. Just blanket alignment trust, for a moment.

Besides MR, who is the scum on your wagon right now?

I'd rather leave that for a moment and see how this thing pans out.

I'd rather we had an honest discourse.

I really want your answer to my 966. It feels important to me.

Go about your catch-up then, but I still wanna hear that list of who I've been defending without reason.

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.
This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

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Ah that reminds, I've actually changed my mind about Pisskop. I kind of liked the way he responded to me last night. I think his reads are pretty bad but I can see what he's doing.

+1 Wow I think I am very glad you are here.

See, in this instance I don't even know what Rogers is saying. Is he saying that Snork is town? Is he saying that pisskop it town? Both? Is he buddying Snork?

Who knows. Certainly not anyone.

Also, I think attributing ignorance to the entire playerlist is bad. If you are confused about something he's posting, why don't you ask him instead?

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I wouldn't call that progression - at least not a natural one.

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I get what MR is saying with 992.

Is he saying that he's reading both you and pisskop as town then?

I believe he's trying to say he likes the thought process. His agreement or disagreement isn't included, and I believe it would imply he is town-reading me. His stance on pisskop isn't really relevant here, imo. I could just be on an ego trip but that's what I got out of it.

MR - would you agree with my interpretation?

Would you prefer I gave you some off-the-top-of-my-head BS answer? This is going to take time to compile, as I have not ISO'd you in depth yet. But it is on my list.

No, I'm asking you to back your assertion, which if I remember was "you're defending players without reason". I want to know who those players are. It has nothing to do with your opinion of me.

I know that. I never said it had anything to do with my opinion of you. Where are you getting that? I said it would take me ISOing you because I haven't yet. Otherwise, I don't remember the specifics because I'm a pothead. I don't remember who. When I read a thread in one shot I jot down my impressions and the numbers of any Super Duper Important Posts^tm. I don't write novels. And, against better judgement, I like to jump right into the conversation as soon as I have an idea of what I'm looking at. So, I gave my off-the-cuff impressions from what I could remember, to explain my vote to you, since you asked. I wouldn't have remarked on it if it hadn't happened; I didn't just make it up. And as I said, it's on my list, and I

will

get back to you.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scumtell?

I sometimes wish that Town were more wifommy than they actually are. But the other part of my problem with Pidgeon (as with mastin, as with Zdenek), is that his(/their) arguments are broad sweeping statements (ie "This can only come from a scum mindset" and characterisations of statements without regard to context (things like "what talah's essentially saying" and the like). They don't read as authentic town arguments to me.

You didn't really answer my question here. Or I don't understand your response. You said you had a problem with AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course", to which I asked if you thought that was a valid scumtell. But then you answered something else, about how AP (and others) gave broad, sweeping judgements. That seems to be an entirely different thing.

Do you think jumping at shadows, or what appear to be shadows, is a scum tell?

p-edit: Stuff.

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I get what MR is saying with 992.

You do!? Oh man I bet I could name a particular post number and be right. I bet you saw that post too!

Does this mean PK can't be scum? Definitely it does not (and he IS crafty enough I bet to pull it off) but for now I support his mission.

lol I guess I didn't get

entirely

what you were saying, but yeah - something about his responses last night rang a bell. Can't remember exactly what it was at this moment, but I'll hit it here shortly as I re-read it.

p-edit: Talah, really the only thing you need to respond to is the question at the end, because I didn't feel your response adequately satisfied my curiosity.

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Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

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Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

This seriously only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer, which I haven't gotten yet, and that's why I'm dissatisfied.

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*sigh*

Talah. I rephrased what you said. To me, jumping at shadows is the same thing as jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course. It's less words which appeals to me.

That's all

. There is literally no distinction, in my mind, between the two, because I am asking you about something

you said

:

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scum tell, Yes or No?

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I don't understand why or how this has devolved into an argument about semantics, when I'm asking a simple question about your own statement and you aren't even answering it.

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Why are you arguing about the phrasing? It's not about the phrasing.

I want you to answer if you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scumtell. My opinion of AP is irrelevant to your catalog of scum tells that you use to find scum.

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Like... this would be pretty easy for town to answer you know... I mean.. at this point I just want to force you to commit to your method of scum hunting so I can call you out on it.

And your responses are increasingly frustrating.

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It is extremely difficult for me to refrain from capslock raging at you right now for twisting the point into oblivion and playing stupid.

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Are you kidding me? I quoted you, and asked if you thought that behavior was a scum tell or not.

What's so "obfuscatory" about that? Nothing. And using buzzwords to continue avoiding the issue is just another nail in your coffin.

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Are you kidding me? I quoted you, and asked if you thought that behavior was a scum tell or not.

What's so "obfuscatory" about that? Nothing. And using buzzwords to continue avoiding the issue is just another nail in your coffin.

Hi, you didn't quote me, you started the sentence with 'Jumping at', just like I did, and then put something else at the end.

That's bullshit.

Oh really?

*sigh*

Talah. I rephrased what you said. To me, jumping at shadows is the same thing as jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course. It's less words which appeals to me.

That's all

. There is literally no distinction, in my mind, between the two, because I am asking you about something

you said

:

EBWOP: "had" should be "have".

But seriously, Talah. You don't want to analyze your own wagon?

Five votes, one of which is mine, is barely good wagon analysis.

This is a bit of a problem I had with Pidgeon as well - jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

Do you believe the bolded in your quote is a valid scum tell, Yes or No?

In post 993, talah wrote

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Jenny:
Helpfukl statement

jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course.

You didn't really answer my question here. Or I don't understand your response. You said you had a problem with AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course", to which I asked if you thought that was a valid scumtell.

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course

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jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course

.

You didn't really answer my question here. Or I don't understand your response. You said you had a problem with AP

"jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course"

, to which I asked if you thought that was a valid scumtell.

Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "

jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course"

is a valid scum tell or not.

jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course

TALAH. STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH WORDS.

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God I hope I'm not the only one who sees a problem with what's going on here.

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Talk about derailing a valid point...

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Because it's irrelevant!! I'm not asking you about jumping at shadows! I'm asking about WHAT YOU YOURSELF SAID IN POST 993.

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"Jumping at shadows" is not the fucking question.

I want to know if what you said about ap is a fucking scum tell to you or not.

What is so goddamn difficult to understand about that?

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If Joe Shmoe tells me his mother is in the hospital, and I ask him how her health had been prior to that, and he tells me he doesn't know how to answer me because "health" is such a vague word, I mean.. wut. This is what you are doing. I'm asking you a simple question and you are acting like it's so fucking hard to understand.

p-edit: Talah, you never answered me. You have yet to answer me.

Me: Do you think X is a scumtell?
You: Well what is X?
Me: X is what you said in this post.
You: I can't answer that because you didn't say what I said.
Me: I rephrased what you said because what you said had too many words, but essentially I want to know about you said, of course.
You: But I can't answer that because you didn't say what I said.
Me: Okay, but can you just answer about what YOU said?
You: No because you didn't say what I said.

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Talah, all I'm asking is if you feel that AP "jumping in all over things which need to take their proper course" is a valid scum tell or not.

This is somewhat frustrating.

This seriously only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer, which I haven't gotten yet, and that's why I'm dissatisfied.

No, you can clarify what you mean by paraphrasing it as "jumping at shadows".

Otherwise the answer is "possibly, depending on context"

Jesus christ. IN THE CONTEXT OF THE POST

YOU MADE ABOUT

AP

.

Fuck.

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And for the record, "Depends" is a non-answer. It does not answer the question definitively, which does not give me an impression of what Talah is using to find scum, if he's even bothering, which conveniently keeps him in a scumhunting grey zone.

There is ZERO town reasons to do this. Spending 2 pages arguing about semantics and word usage is scummy as fuck, and propagated BY TALAH refusing to answer a very simple question about his methods.

I don't know why I bother interacting with obvious scum. I need to stop doing that.

p-edit: Tell me how that makes any difference to what I want to know?

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Actually,

please don't

.

I am completely finished talking to you.

ScumTalah can hang, please.

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WTF are you all arguing about?

Talah, I see you have a problem with Mr, but I can't understand if you think he's scum or not. So I'm wondering what is your point? What is the point of this discussion?

Walter, I'm really glad you're here.

The point of the crap with Talah was that I wanted to know what he was using to scumhunt. He dodged the question by arguing about the word usage. Despite then quoting his post so there could be no confusion, he found other reasons to dodge.

It's not worth reading, trust me. None of it.

Let's chat, though. I've been waiting for you.

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As far as his "read" on MR, I personally believe it is fabricated suspicion.

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Walter: I was hoping to get your top scum reads.

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The only thing that really bugs me about Luca is the fact that my scum reads are advocating it as an acceptable lynch.

My top town reads right now are you, MR, AP, Pisskop, Zd and mastin. Second tier would be Yates, DV, 4nx and pmatt.
Top scum reads are Talah, Thad, aptil, DG, Rach.

Nulls are nero (for now - his ISO is on my list), Luca, and PV (who I was originally scum reading, but not sure if correct yet based on other posts).

Where would you disagree?

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Actually, I'd like MR, mastin, PK, AP, and Zd to collab with me on these as well.

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And Bipolar is missing. Even with V/LA, mastin has a bigger presence here. Bipolar is.. null.

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@MR:

Talk to me about pmatt. He's seems to not really be here but when he is here I feel like he's giving whatever thoughts he has (i.e., doesn't seem to be holding anything back, if that makes sense).

@Nero:

1) Can you sum up the reasons why you think MR is scummier than anyone else in the game right now? It seems like the only stated reason was his post count, which you then followed up with saying you didn't like how he responded to you, but I don't really see where you are finding scum motivation in what he's saying/doing. Is there anything concrete you can think of on MR that led you to this conclusion?

2) Besides MR, where are your strongest suspicions currently? Why?

3) Pretend MR was lynched and flipped town. How would that affect the analysis you have up to this point? Where would you look next?

4) Pretend MR was lynched and flipped town. Who do you think would be the most likely partners? What makes you think so?

That's all. Your ISO is pretty thin, but the impression that I get is that you are passionate about what you are saying, and will likely apply that passion productively if given the time.

(Small request: If you are willing to answer my questions, would you mind quoting the post so I can see what you are responding to with the response - rather than responding by number? It really helps.)

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#4 should say "flipped scum".

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Ok, ISOing pmatt now. In the meantime, which would you say is harder to fake for scum - tone or content?

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@MR re: pmatt:

In his first post, he points out something he doesn't like from Doc, from aptil, from PV, and then voted Bipolar. Town reads seem to be MR, Zd, DV, with tentative town reads on my slot, rach, and mastin. He says Talah's opening post is "pretty townie", which I actually agree with, as I was townreading him at first (though as you can tell, that quickly declined).

-- based on his entry post, I agree with his reads, especially at that point in the game where PV was a strong scum read for me, aptil looked like an active lurker, and Doc was a non-entity.

Then, after the vig gambit, he was questioned about his reaction and explained in a fairly transparent manner. Then voted aptil. A good vote.

Regarding his defense of my slot, I am probably pretty biased because I know my alignment, but when I first read it I didn't find it to be over the top or ingenuine at all. I felt his defense was natural. Also, he seemed to be arguing more about the principle, rather than the slot. Post 600 is a good example of what I mean.

Regarding the "bigger fish", I have to agree with him. If I was watching this as a different slot, there WERE better options. PV was a good one at the time. As was DG. Both had content and stances to criticize. The fact that bjc was the wagon of discussion is most certainly a scum distraction and we should be looking at who was trying to justify it, imo. Plus he was townreading the slot, which makes his defense make sense, and as he was questioned about it, makes it seem like that's all he was doing. What I see is that no one questioned him about his other town reads, or the scum reads from his first post.

Later, he also seems to have a scumread on Yates.

I'm wondering why you thought he didn't have any scum reads? I saw Yates, Doc, aptil and PV as his scum reads, and what seems to be a mild scum read on DG.

@Snow

: Saw your posts, reading them now.

[Snork]

Definitely content. Man you gotta put it on the line dewd and that means every time you do, you have a guaranteed enemy and better make it good because otherwise you will be suspected. Hard work. Much easier to vote a lurker that can't fight back.

And you have to LIE. And literally make things up. And make it all look real.

BLECH. Give me a town role.

I'd have to disagree with you. I believe tonality is much harder to fake, and what's funny, I believe this for the very reason you have stated (underlined). Just think about it for a bit. We'll come back to this.

The only thing that really bugs me about Luca is the fact that my scum reads are advocating it as an acceptable lynch.

My top town reads right now are you, MR, AP, Pisskop, Zd and mastin. Second tier would be Yates, DV, 4nx and pmatt.
Top scum reads are Talah, Thad, aptil, DG, Rach.

Nulls are nero (for now - his ISO is on my list), Luca, and PV (who I was originally scum reading, but not sure if correct yet based on other posts).

Where would you disagree?

I have a town read on AP too. Pisskop is still kinda null, some people seem to suspect him and I haven't looked much into him yet and while I don't dislike his posts it is not enough to give him a townread.

I have a weaker town read on DV too. As for 4nxiety, I have mixed feelings.

What are you thinking in regards to 4nx? Anything in particular come to mind that makes you think he might not be town?

I haven't devoted much thought to mastin, Yates, pmatt, Nero and PV, but I haven't seen anything in their posts that would make me consider lynching them today, so for now they're in the null pile.

Talah is a mess and is in a tier of his own.

Agreed! Are you thinking scumtier, towntier, or wtf-tier?

Rach is nullish but I'm not a big fan of her latest posts. So she's in between the null pile and scum leaning.

The issue I have with her posts is that she seems so out of touch with the game, and not in a natural way. She talks about so much outside influence and crap that doesn't matter to the game unnecessarily. I think it was either Yates or Nero who mentioned that there's not reason to explain why they haven't posted yet because it's nobody's business. That's true. If RL is in the way, just say that and declare a V/LA (or replace out if necessary). When you start talking about your personal issues, it comes across as appealing for pity, and I don't like it. Her posts seemed to be all about gaining a pass for her lack of contribution. Even if the RL issues were true, which they very well may be - that is not even the issue, using it as an excuse is awful and only serves to introduce other crap where it doesn't belong, and to cloud anyone's read on her slot.

That's my two cents on Rach.

Aptil. I think I'm leaning town on him. I have played with him before (on Westeros mafia), more times than I remembered, because most of the games he played in he ended up being replaced for low activity. The only game where he wasn't replaced was the only game where he was scum, where he looked more proactive and involved. Now while I don't think this is a strong point to town read him for, I don't get a scum feeling from his posts either. So I'd say he's a weak town read atm.

I don't have a response for this at the moment, other than to acknowledge your opinion on the slot. Aptil is a big question mark for me.

[Snork]

1) His point was about voting for lurkers and who was he voting? Aptil.

This is a good point.

2) His point was about bigger fish like, ya we both know there's bigger fish -- ORLY? And like your ISO since you returned has you searching out these bigger fish how?
2a) Asking someone else why he should vote Talah -- granted I am certain Talah is scum so unless its multi-ball, a case can be made for lowering Matt in any scum tier.

Hm. The way I read this was that he was town-reading Talah and asking the other person to justify voting one of his town reads. This is something I'd do. I don't understand what you mean about multi-ball.

3) Voting Yates with no case. Asks me for my Yates reads before providing any Yates case and no such case has materialized.
4) He promised content and didn't deliver.

I don't think these are scum tells. Yet. I dunno. This could be a good point but I guess I don't feel this is the right time for this point to be valid.

5) His profile since his return looks like scum lost in the thread.

What do you mean?

[Snork]

The other thing I think, too, is that he seems to be like, kind of a lazy player. When he appears, he seems to only be able to focus on one or two things. I don't think he's mentally engaged with the game enough to be able to scumhunt AND defend himself at the same time. And that is in no way a comment on his skill, because I think most people have a hard time doing both. I really want to see what he comes up with when he's not under pressure.

[Snork]

Because that's easier to use to read him.

[Snork]

Just took a look at the activity to see when he was here last.

He's only been gone 24 hours.

(Also, I just wanna jab at AP cuz he said he'd have more posts than [someone I don't remember] and it looks like in the 12 hours I've been here, I nearly have more posts than he does. )

[Snork]

2) His point was about bigger fish like, ya we both know there's bigger fish -- ORLY? And like your ISO since you returned has you searching out these bigger fish how?
2a) Asking someone else why he should vote Talah -- granted I am certain Talah is scum so unless its multi-ball, a case can be made for lowering Matt in any scum tier.

Hm. The way I read this was that he was town-reading Talah and asking the other person to justify voting one of his town reads.

ORLY? So he wasn't looking for case material but was trying to DEFEND Talah??

I was under the impression he was townreading Talah. I just went back and read it, cuz I didn't quite understand your perspective there. He had mentioned having trouble finding a solid scumread. Zd was blatanly pushing Talah at the time and said he had a suggestion. In response, pmatt asked why he should.

I don't really know what this is supposed to mean. I don't think he was trying to defend Talah.

At this point, I'm just coming up with plausible reasoning, and

I'd much rather hear the real reasoning from projectmatt

.

5) His profile since his return looks like scum lost in the thread.

What do you mean?

You know, scum in a game surrounded by townies; can't get a case out there. Feeling disjointed and unable to function.

That makes me think more likely SK than factional scum if he's not-town.

[Snork]

Was hoping to talk with AP today but seems I missed him. Was also looking for something from Rach, and found this lovely piece of townposting.

/sarcasm

My head aches something fierce and I ended up skimming several pages here due to the amount of vitriol.

Could we please tone it down and remember that it IS a game and focus on the playstyle and not the player. thanks.

Thanks for the update on your bodily status, as well as the unnecessary scolding from someone who has absolutely no place to be scolding anyone.

How about you provide some content? What are your reads? Where do you stand on the Talah wagon? The Luca wagon? Their supporters?

[Snork]

ThAd, despite how inane the argument with Talah was, I'm surprised you don't have a comment on his unwillingness to acknowledge the point and answer the question I had for him.

[Snork]

Disregard; I missed your last sentence.

[Snork]

3941: openblocks.blockPlacer from OpenBlocks - translocator from Translocator
3942: openblocks.blockbreaker from OpenBlocks - null from Translocator
Suggested Ranges: 1560-1752 (193 IDs), 516-700 (185 IDs), 1755-1919 (165 IDs)
--- changed to 1560 and 1561

[Snork]

@mod:

^^ that does not belong here; CTRL+V fail on my part. Please delete.

--

@projectmatt:

If you believe that Luca is scum and Talah is the counterwagon, who on the Talah wagon is scum (besides Luca)?

---

I think I just really don't like the way Gant posts. BUT there's something subtly town about some of the things he says that I don't think scum would think to change. I can't really explain much better at the moment. I have to think on this a bit more. But it's there.

--

@MR,

I believe you are town, and I can see in your posts a genuine interest to get to the bottom of things. HOWEVER, responding to each post individually is really hurting things and I can see why Nero has a problem with you. Rather than being able to read people's responses to yesterday's posts, I have to sift through yours and this is requiring a lot more work than is necessary. It harms my ability to scumhunt properly. I now have to set aside

several hours at a time

to read every one of your 1-2 line posts and people's responses to them, and formulate my thoughts, rather than an hour here and there during the day. You are drowning out other people. Please tone it down.

Also - what is the purpose behind this post?

@Luca: Get off the Talah wagon, you're making it look bad. Please self-vote. kthxbai.

--

Regarding Luca

- this lynch has bad mojo and the wagon is filled with scumreads! Lurking aside, this is far more troubling! The case on Luca that I have seen is that his lurking

may

be scum motivated and some of his posts

may

be excuses, but these are not provable! Talah's posts, actions, and votes have a verifiable history IN THIS THREAD of being scum. There are

verifiable inconsistencies, a neglect to scum hunt, lies, opportunistic votes, and unwillingness to be accountable for his reads/actions IN HIS ISO

. Stop ignoring it!

--

RachMarie has done fuck all and when questioned returns with the fact that she has a headache.

<<<< Hello?????? Why is anyone townreading this????

--
to be continued... (post 1120)

[Snork]

actually it appears the Luca wagon has changed, yet maintains the same number of votes, and the scumreads have all jumped off. That's extremely interesting.

[Snork]

The one I'm referring to was long before Nero voted Luca, and Talah was still on it.

[Snork]

The one I'm referring to was long before Nero voted Luca, and Talah was still on it.

so it changed a long time ago . I was confused by your statement that as i did not see any change .

I've read all the pages, but only

in-depth

reading done to about 11 pages ago. So while I am keeping up with general events, my analysis is a few pages behind at the moment.

[Snork]

That attack has broken me. Thanks Snor.

Mod replace me.

That wasn't my intention at all.

[Snork]

ok wait a minute here Luca.

Dude was V/LA for a while and just got back and suddenly you find him scummy nope nope nope I do not buy it that is definitely scummy of you going for the low hanging fruit

VOTE: Luca

Finally found an excuse to join a wagon, did you?

[Snork]

Yates, that sinus bullshit has no place here. If you have to go 50 pages without producing a single opinion, replace out.

[Snork]

Yates, that sinus bullshit has no place here. If you have to go 50 pages without producing a single opinion, replace out.

[Snork]

Rach what other reads do you have?

[Snork]

So YOU were the one!

I don't get this comment. Yates said the same thing.

[Snork]

I want to look over Nero again too.

[Snork]

Where was the intent to hammer?

[Snork]

Vote: Luca

=====[]
[]=====

Then wth is this?

[Snork]

Don't act like that's a stupid question, AP.

[Snork]

Actually, I sa something interesting when I was looking for something in Nero's ISO. Search for Talah in there. I havent gotten to organizing it yet but I think others might see what I mean.

@pa: I await your fresh perspective. Any wagon analysis you manage to do would also be wonderful.

[Snork]

no what do you mean?

You are Nero; not "others".

[Snork]

So? I'm a curios little kitten and I want to know what you supposedly see.

with all the fire you spit from the moment you started posting, this literally made me lol...

I want to know if other people see it or if I'm just seeing things that aren't there, before I make any statements about it.

[Snork]

No nothing like that. It's more about me not being sure there's anything there.

Spoiler: Look I found your picture on the internet

[Snork]

And being too busy at the moment to compare multiple ISOs

[Snork]

No nothing like that. It's more about me not being sure there's anything there.

So you've "found" something but you aren't sure that its a scumtell and instead of just pointing it out and asking about it you rather send town on a scavenger hunt through my ISO. That doesn't really strike me as townie bro and its kinda OMGUSY.

Nero, are you saying it's anti-town to ask people to ISO someone and come up with their own conclusions? o.O

Honestly, I'm a little surprised by your reaction right now.

[Snork]

Also how is it OMGUSy when I wasn't scumreading you and am unaware if you are scumreading me?

I mean, you have nothing to hide in your ISO, do you? Why wouldn't you want people to ISO you?

[Snork]

Also how is it OMGUSy when I wasn't scumreading you and am unaware if you are scumreading me?

I mean, you have nothing to hide in your ISO, do you? Why wouldn't you want people to ISO you?

[Snork]

Yes, I'm obviously scum that's afraid to be ISO'd and I'm calling you scummy for it in hopes that no one reads my ISO.

I never said this... I asked why you wouldn't want to be ISO'd cuz your reaction was a little overblown, imo, so it seemed like you wanted to discourage anyone from bothering.

I've prob already been ISO'd to death and so what if I come across as "scummy". I'm much more interested in finding scum.

Then why do you seem to be freaking out about me suggesting someone ISO you?

I sa something interesting when I was looking for something in Nero's ISO

here you say you found something but instead of outing what you "found" you tell everyone to go look to see if they can find what you found and all that just seems really silly to me.

If you think it's "silly", then ignore it. It doesn't seem like you think it's silly, since you're engaging me about it.

It just seems to me that the pro-town route "hey guys, look I found THIS and I think it points to Nero being scum." But instead there's no real sense of accountability on your part.

That's not quite true, Nero. 1) I never said that what I saw points to you being scum - you made that conclusion. And 2) what am I needing to be accountable for here? I have made no claims about what I saw, I have made no suggestions about the conclusions I came to, I have made no accusations of you.

Can you quote the first instance of you calling me scum?

Where did I say that you call me scum? I said I'm unaware if you are scumreading me or not. If you were actively scum reading me and attacking me, then saying that my comment is "OMGUSy" would make sense. I asked how it's OMGUSy because I'm not aware if you are scumreading me or not, so it doesn't make sense to me.

However, the nervousness about having people ISO you, and making such a big deal about this is making me think that yeah, you might be scum. Before that, I didn't really think so, and had you in my "probably town" pile. I mean, the whole point was that I was doubting the validity that there was anything to be found in your ISO, hence why I asked people to take a look without putting any ideas in their heads, because I wanted a clean perspective and not one tainted by anything I introduced.

But you call that anti-town and I don't understand. You engage me about this as though I'm attacking you, when I wasn't. You turn this into something it's not, and I am curious why.

If you had ignored it and just let people ISO you, I honestly would not even be wondering about you. I mean, that's really the reaction I was expecting, as I thought you were probably town. I was expecting a town reaction, which is to go on scumhunting, since being ISO'd should be no big deal. Instead you seem to be panicking and I really don't get it.

[Snork]

Also how is it OMGUSy when I wasn't scumreading you

Well you are obviously scumreading me now, right? Oh, you weren't. You were just saying that you say something in my ISO and wanted people to go read it. That makes no sense as town play since its towns job to find scum and if you are asking folks to ISO me for something that YOU didn't even find scummy then that just seems like busy work.

I'm not really interested in arguing semantics again. I made my point about why I asked; I'm not going to repeat myself again.

and am unaware if you are scumreading me?

So you're telling me that you missed

As of right now I'm thinking that scum are in

Mister Rogers

Snork

AngryPidgeon
Luca Blight
BipolarChemist
Yates
PeregrineV
RachMarie
Zdenek

despite responding to the post right after it? I find that a lil' hard to buy

Why? I'm not concerned with people I think are town scumreading me... Why would this even register? If I thought you might be scum, you putting me in your scumpile would be something that supports that theory. But if other evidence made me think you were town, then a healthy dose of paranoia isn't something that's going go ping.

But now that you mention it... that's.. a big list. Talk about casting a wide net.

I mean, you have nothing to hide in your ISO, do you? Why wouldn't you want people to ISO you?

I don't think I've been saying that.

I didn't say you were saying that. I was asking you directly.

My bad guys, I shoulda helped ya'll wagon BJC.

lol... So, now, because I think you could be scum, I'm scum? Hoo boy...

[Snork]

AP, since you're here...

Blue below are additions I've made just now.

The only thing that really bugs me about Luca is the fact that my scum reads are advocating it as an acceptable lynch.

My top town reads right now are you

[Snow]

, MR, AP, Pisskop, Zd and mastin. Second tier would be Yates, DV, 4nx and pmatt.

Adding a third tier of null, maybe town, here: DG, Luca

Top scum reads are Talah, Thad, aptil,

DG,

Nero,

Rach.

Nulls are

nero (for now - his ISO is on my list), Luca,

and PV (who I was originally scum reading, but not sure if correct yet based on other posts).

Where would you disagree?

Actually, I'd like

MR,

penguin_alien

, mastin, PK, AP, and Zd to collab with me on these as well.

[Snork]

Oh actually, bump DV down to third tier town, and more null than that even.

[Snork]

But now that you mention it... that's.. a big list. Talk about casting a wide net.

5-6 scum. no one gonna peg all right off the bat. Since its a wider net its more likely to contain the names of scum and scare the fuck out of them.

Is this because these are your actual reads or because you think it's appropriate to have this many?

lol... So, now, because I think you could be scum, I'm scum? Hoo boy...

yes, obviously I just NOW have a scum read on you. I apparently didn't call you scum back in 1300..

Well, must not have been important of a scum read enough to try to pin me down. I mean, with that many scum reads, you'd think you'd want to narrow the list by questioning everyone on there, but this is the first time we've interacted. So... yeah, just now.

[Snork]

actual reads though some I'm not too confident in.

Are these still accurate reads or have you changed this list at all? Would you mind putting them in order of strength (top being most confidence)?

[Snork]

AP, since you're here...

Blue below are additions I've made just now.

The only thing that really bugs me about Luca is the fact that my scum reads are advocating it as an acceptable lynch.

My top town reads right now are you

[Snow]

, MR, AP, Pisskop, Zd and mastin. Second tier would be Yates, DV, 4nx and pmatt.

Adding a third tier of null, maybe town, here: DG, Luca

Top scum reads are Talah, Thad, aptil,

DG,

Nero,

Rach.

Nulls are

nero (for now - his ISO is on my list), Luca,

and PV (who I was originally scum reading, but not sure if correct yet based on other posts).

Where would you disagree?

Actually, I'd like

MR,

penguin_alien

, mastin, PK, AP, and Zd to collab with me on these as well.

Ok, is there something you wanted to talk about specifically?

As far as reads go I'm somewhere around:

Town core: Penguin, Snork, PV
Probably town: Nero, Yates, DG, anxiety, snowstorm, Luca

I liked DV, but some of his recent opinions are less than sensible so Im bumping him into "not willing to lynch Today, someone should probably investigate this"-ville.
Zdenek I really don't know what to make of this game. I sort of like his reads, but not quite comfortable calling him town.

RM, matt, mastin are great targets for investigative PRs right now.

Scummy: Talah, Admiral, aptil, pisskop, Bipolar

I wanted to see your reads for a couple of reasons.

1) I wanted to see the differences between your scumreads and mine, and ask you what you see that I may be missing, and then figure out if I agree or not;

and

2) To see if there's anyone in your townreads that I felt really didn't belong there, and look into why.

I'm satisfied that my read on you is still correct. Questions for you:

- I'm guessing that RM, mastin and matt are your nulls? Would it be appropriate to add DV to your list of "good PR targets"?

- I thought you were pretty accurate reading mastin. Is it just his current V/LA that has prevented you from getting a read on him yet or is there something else?

- Regarding your town read of Nero, do you think his reaction to me the last page or two is alignment indicative at all?

- I can understand why you have aptil and Bipolar in your scum lists. How strong are those reads? If one or both are town, who would you replace them with?

- Talk to me about Pisskop. Why are you scumreading him?

[Snork]

AP, you think attacking someone for asking others to ISO them is a town reaction?

[Snork]

Mk. It didn't read indignant to me, but if you have experience reading him, I'll keep it in mind. I'm far more interested in Talah flip at the moment anyway.

[Snork]

The Yates scumreads don't make sense to you? I disagree with them, but I can understand them, so the pushers on that one aren't as scummy looking to me, I suppose. (I'm lazy or I'd be more specific with names, but I'm a pothead and don't remember).

If you go back to where Pisskop posted 847 there and read how he reacted to my poking, that's when I started to get a town feeling from him, but if you want to talk about indignant tone - that post definitely has it. (Actually, let me go look at that and tell you exactly why - brb)

[Snork]

And Talah started off really strong, and quickly descended into insane scum. At least that's the way it looked from my POV, so his "increasingly Talah" could be either town coming out of tunnel mode or scum prepping to bus, so I don't think it's a good tell.

[Snork]

Spoiler: this post by pisskop AP

Context: just before this post, I told him I thought his 4nx vote was opportunistic.

wrt Anxiety

338 initial opinion
437 analysis

Instead of yourself how about joining me on the anxiety wagon?
The bonus is he's actually scum!

How can I be the only person voting him?

BeetleJuiCe is fitting Stop your nonsense and make contents.

I think I can go for an anxiety wagon.

vote: 4nxi3ty

and still dont feel completely safe around Rogers.

Annnd look at that. I wont claim there wasnt oppurtunity; oppurtunity is awsome.

You cant say im trying to hide my votes when I have already cast more votesthan some will all game. It counter-intuitive to pretend Im trying to to be any sort of guileful by voting so noticeably. bad.

There's a lot there so it's a bit hard to nail it down, but basically.. he was accused of something, and instantly showed his own history. It's kind of a soft and subtle tell for me, but it works so well in conjunction with others. Scum spend most of the time trying to blend in, move with the town, and hope to end up with a mislynch at the end of the day. That takes focus. It takes reacting to town's whims - not initiating their own motives (mostly). When you're reacting, you aren't planning who you're going to poke at next, or who you're going to watch, or what you "reads" are. You're simply trying to make it look like you are. In short, scum aren't going to be able to refute accusations as fluidly as town are. And this post shows pisskop being able to do just that without breaking a sweat. And you know what? He didn't even attack me in the end. He just showed me his evidence and moved on. <<< That's a townie attitude.

[Snork]

Did you go read the whole exchange?

[Snork]

Did you go read the whole exchange?

I skimmed it, I don't see what you think Im missing.

You called his anxiety vote opportunistic and unexplained. He linked to his posts where he talked about Anxiety?

This makes him [Town, Scum, Flying Pumpkin That Shoots Lazer Beams Out Of Its Ass] specifically because?

Cuz I think so. It's fine. I'm not exactly concerned about convincing you of his towniness. I'm just not interested in lynching him anytime soon.

[Snork]

You keep trying to twist it to fit what you think it was.

I saw a connection between you and Talah. I didn't know if it meant you were scum with Talah if he's scum, or if you were town regardless, or if it made you scum and Talah town, etc. Do you get what I'm saying? I saw a connection between you and Talah and I didn't know what it meant. I asked if anyone else saw something there and didn't want to introduce my own ideas of what it might mean. I wanted to avoid clouding others' perception of your ISO.

Instead of, like, I dunno, being rational about it, you go off saying that I found something scummy in your ISO and refuse to tell you what it is.

Which is complete bullshit and not true. You keep trying to say how that's not pro-town. Yet what you are calling not pro-town is NOT EVEN WHAT I DID.

[Snork]

And on top of all that, you freak out about it and attack me for it.

Way out of proportion reaction imo.

[Snork]

Just for asking people to ISO you? Are you for real...

[Snork]

Fucking hell Talah...

UNVOTE:

These are the current

off-wagon voters

, and there's at least one scum here:
DG (1): mastin2
Mastin (1): BP
Aptil (1): ThAd
Yates (1): pk
BP (1): Luca

{mastin, BP, ThAd, PK, Luca}

Other than mastin, those are all good possibilities.

--

Main wagons:

Luca (9): 4nx, pmatt, DG, Nero, DV, RM, Yates, Zd, talah

L-2

Talah (5): AP, pa, PV, Snow, aptil

--

I had originally split this up into "If Talah Town" and "If Luca Town", but realized the results are the same. At least one on each wagon should be scum.

- [TALAH WAGON] One of {me, AP, pa, PV, Snow, aptil} should be scum, at least. Of these, the only two I see as possibilities are PV and aptil.
* If town, either. If scum, I think aptil more likely to be bussing.

- [LUCA WAGON] One of {4nx, pmatt, DG, Nero, DV, RM, Yates, Zd, Talah} should be scum, at least. Of these, I would guess RM, maybe Nero, maybe DV. (Ignoring talah's presence here for purposes of analysis)
*If town, any of those would work. If scum, I'd say RM is the busser.

--

Suspicions aside, the biggest problem I have with the wagons is the fact that most of the people on the Luca wagon I do not have town reads on, or the town reads are extremely weak; whereas on the Talah wagon, when it was larger, had strong town reads on it.

(Note to self - go get that VC)

I need to time to go over this and reevaluate some things. And I really want to hear from pa at the very least before the day ends.

-- Also, ThAd trying to split the votes with his aptil "epiphany"...

[Snork]

At least one on each [Luca,talah} wagon should be scum.

Going to have to disagree with this.

If talah is town, then why are scum so hot to lynch Luca instead?

Yep. You see my problem with the Luca wagon.

[Snork]

Talah "pothead" is not a defence. It's literally that I have the worst memory in the world so answering shit with specifics takes me going back to get names. I just personally attribute that to smoking too much. (I suppose you'd have to know me. It's a big joke IRL.)

[Snork]

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

[Snork]

Yes. ThAd flashwagon, Go.

VOTE: ThAdmiral

[Snork]

Disappointed with mastin right now. Very much.

Also... wat Nero?

[Snork]

Where did I ever - EVER - even IMPLY that I ignore my town reads?

[Snork]

"I have all this free time but this game isn't important so I'm not gonna play."

Get out.

[Snork]

Snorks not catching up, bro. In fact Snork even said something along the lines of "I don't pay attention to my town reads." That's not a direct quote or anything.

[Snork]

"I have all this free time but this game isn't important so I'm not gonna play."

Get out.

She said she isn't going to read 60 pages (and frankly shes not missing much), she never said she wouldn't play

So... ignore the history of the wagons, ignore the evidence in the thread, ignore everything = playing?

Fuck me; I've been doing this all wrong.

p-edit: Yeah Nero. READ THE WORDS YO. I don't give a fuck if someone is scumreading me, but even less so if I think that person is town. NOT "I don't pay attention to my town reads".

[Snork]

Lurking or V/LA is one thing, but this...

Y'all wanted to lynch bjc for defiantly claiming he liked lurking. This shmuck comes in here,

and admits to not caring enough to bother reading

and I'm supposed to lay down and let it happen? Fuck no. Have some goddamned respect for the other people in the thread.

The fact that I thought she was town makes this so much more a betrayal.

[Snork]

I am not raging.

But I am making it known I am disappointed.

I've been waiting for her to come back. I've been waiting to have some interaction and talk about her catchup and her thoughts on what has occurred since she was last here.

That's not going to happen. Hell yeah I'm pissed about that.

[Snork]

I mean, I dunno about you but I put work into every inquiry I make and I don't just do it for my benefit. I do it for the benefit of my teammates as well.

And one of them just slapped me in the face.

p-edit: mastin .....

I replaced bjc. Read my ISO if none else. I've commented on almost every event and interacted with most everyone.

p-edit: Nero, I saw it. I thought to myself, that's a big list. I had planned to ISO you and knew I'd get a closer look at it later anyway, which I did.

[Snork]

I don't even know how to respond to that.

[Snork]

Or ThAd.

[Snork]

It's cuz my avatar has pink in it, isn't it... that's why she thinks I'm a chick?

[Snork]

Nero, did you ever answer these?

@Nero:
1) Can you sum up the reasons why you think MR is scummier than anyone else in the game right now? It seems like the only stated reason was his post count, which you then followed up with saying you didn't like how he responded to you, but I don't really see where you are finding scum motivation in what he's saying/doing. Is there anything concrete you can think of on MR that led you to this conclusion?

2) Besides MR, where are your strongest suspicions currently? Why?

3) Pretend MR was lynched and flipped town. How would that affect the analysis you have up to this point? Where would you look next?

4) Pretend MR was lynched and flipped town. Who do you think would be the most likely partners? What makes you think so?

[Snork]

I could be insane, but I reallly think this looks like a Talah/mastin team.

No, you're insane.

[Snork]

At the very least your "he" feels like it's false and that it's a female scummer behind the keyboard. Have no clue what gives me that impression.

Don't worry, my one and only guess was a female scummer, so you aren't totally insane.

wtf... my gender is not up for debate. This is bordering on offensive.

[Snork]

The only reason you seem to think I'm someone else is because I know how to play mafia? I've read a ton of the games on this site and these large games seem more fun than newbies.

[Snork]

I'm not an alt.

Can we continue with the game now?

[Snork]

Because all of mastin's early posts show a pretty clear intention to find scum, not just make noise. Plus your reasoning doesn't make sense for Talah/mastin buddies.

[Snork]

It just seems like you came up with this because mastin isn't praising the Talah wagon right now, which is kind of appropriate given how disconnected she is from the thread.

p-edit: yeah yeah. Just trust me.

p-edit: See.

[Snork]

@mastin:

These are my current reads. Notes below to give a bit of context. Further info is on you to look into anything that sticks out.

Town: AP, mastin, Snow, pa (replaced Mister Rogers)
Probably town: Yates, projectmatt, 4nxi3ty, Zd
Null/very weak town: pisskop (replaced Doc Holiday), PV, DG, Luca
Dead null: BPC
Null/very weak scum: Nero, DV
Probably scum: RM, aptil
Scum: ThAd, talah

4 to 5 scum:
ThAd
Talah
RachMarie
aptil
{Nero, DV}

My largest scum read right now is Talah for pushing a shit wagon on lurkers and trying to justify it, attempting to cast suspicion on obviously townie townie people, most notably, AP, and after I replaced in and was no longer a lurker, went from townreading my slot to calling my reads "repulsive" (I'm thinking cuz partners are in it).

From Talah, DV and Nero dropped from maybe town to maybe scum based on their unreasonable and illogical defense of Talah.

ThAd has had wtf reads that make no sense; chainsaw defending Talah. Plus anyone on the Luca wagon is suspect.

RM has contributed less than you, gives shitty excuses at every turn, doesn't respond to inquiries, doesn't scum hunt, doesn't do jack shit, and then tried to slide onto the Luca wagon like it was the thing to do.

Aptil is less confident scum read based on (short) ISO. I think you should just read his ISO. Cuz I kind of want your impression.

BPC disappeared after the vig gambit, is supposedly back from his V/LA and hasn't done anything spectacular. Plus his reaction to the vig gambit was lame.

And regarding Luca, speed of the wagon, scumreads on it, townreads on the Talah wagon, bad mojo.

[Snork]

Nero

, did you ever answer these?

@Nero:

1) Can you sum up the reasons why you think MR is scummier than anyone else in the game right now? It seems like the only stated reason was his post count, which you then followed up with saying you didn't like how he responded to you, but I don't really see where you are finding scum motivation in what he's saying/doing. Is there anything concrete you can think of on MR that led you to this conclusion?

2) Besides MR, where are your strongest suspicions currently? Why?

3) Pretend MR was lynched and flipped town. How would that affect the analysis you have up to this point? Where would you look next?

4) Pretend MR was lynched and flipped scum. Who do you think would be the most likely partners? What makes you think so?

[Snork]

Nero, please answer it. It would help me clarify your slot.

[Snork]

OH! Tell me of this illogical defense of Talah.

also nope.

By pushing the counterwagon. Duh.

[Snork]

It is to me cuz I don't think scumreading Luca makes sense.

[Snork]

If you're trying to read mastin, using Talah to do it is dumb. Especially if Talah is scum cuz that's not something mastin can control.

You should read mastin based on what SHE does, and if you're using Talah as a gauge, use HER behavior towards TALAH, not the other way around.

[Snork]

It is to me cuz I don't think scumreading Luca makes sense.

So you think its illogical to scumread Luca and yet

Probably town: Yates, projectmatt, 4nxi3ty, Zd

all of those are Luca voters

+ if Talah is scum she's going to have buddies that are bussing her.

AND if you still think Talah is scum then it makes zero sense to unvote her and attempt a Thad flash wagon.

If Talah flips town who is scum on the wagon and why?

Dude none of them are town-reading Talah. Except maybe 4nx but he's had more town content than you, who tunneled on MR for how many pages?

[Snork]

AP is *twitchy* in this game. He's too quick to call people scum

This is exactly why I'm townreading him.

[Snork]

I think further Day 1 discussion is pretty moot.

This is pretty poor, considering mastin just started back in here and pa has yet to post since replacing in....

Plus, that entire post is far more dramatic than is necessary when your wagon is L-6 and Luca is L-1.

[Snork]

If Talah flips town who is scum on the wagon and why?

You know I already answered this, right?

- [TALAH WAGON] One of {me, AP, pa, PV, Snow, aptil} should be scum, at least. Of these, the only two I see as possibilities are

PV and aptil.

* If town, either. If scum, I think aptil more likely to be bussing.

- [LUCA WAGON] One of {4nx, pmatt, DG, Nero, DV, RM, Yates, Zd, Talah} should be scum, at least. Of these, I would guess RM, maybe Nero, maybe DV. (Ignoring talah's presence here for purposes of analysis)
*If town, any of those would work. If scum, I'd say RM is the busser.

[Snork]

If you haven't got enough for at least a leaning read yet in that quarter then you need to leave it for another day anyway.

What does this mean? I'm town-reading mastin pretty strongly.

[Snork]

unvote, vote: aptil

K.

Let's chat.

[Snork]

If you haven't got enough for at least a leaning read yet in that quarter then you need to leave it for another day anyway.

What does this mean? I'm town-reading mastin pretty strongly.

Oh. I thought you meant that you wanted the day to continue on so you could get a read on mastin.

No I wan't her help reading others.

[Snork]

but it's not really about mastin. I'd like to hear from penguin_alien,and there's still people I haven't really engaged yet, and I kinda feel like I'm gonna die tonight so I want to make the most of the day.

[Snork]

If you are town then this is mindblowingly anti-town, borderline blacklist worthy and your follow up that you still think Luca is a good lynch makes it even worse.

Oh fuck you. Stop backing off your scumread.

Can we not do this again? If you are town, this is not the best use of your time.

[Snork]

Christ 2 days left...

VOTE: Talah

btw Luca, this is not a pass for you. Talah is almost certainly scum, or I need to seriously re-evaluate some of my town reads. But you need to pick it up or find a replacement.

[Snork]

aptil is a good option too but not for D1. I'm looking for scum but failing that I want information out of D1's lynch.

[Snork]

And after today we need to sort the lurkers. Waiting to get to them until D3+ is just asking for a deadline LYLO from lack of activity.

[Snork]

This a million times, especially bolded. Snork scum.

If you think I'm scum, you either do not know how to read anyone or you are scum misreading me on purpose.

[Snork]

lol... I almost want to go

OOH YOU CAUGHT ME \o/

[Snork]

How am I backtracking when I'm scumreading both of them? Talah's reads posts really made me pause, and Luca was at L-1, while Talah was at L-6. It wasn't happening. Plus, I wanted to see what kind of reaction that would get, but yeah I really wanna lynch ThAd too.

[Snork]

Snork: oh u be scummy for defending Talah by pushing the counterwagon. And having a scumread on Luca
Nero: But I'm not alone....
Snork: Well you have a town read!!!!

This makes no sense and does not match my recollection of anything I've said.

You're scummy both for townreading Talah and pushing the Luca wagon; Talah is not fucking townie in the least and to me, you'd have to be stupid, blind or scum to be on any other wagon.

[Snork]

Not to mention that your attacks on me really look like scum trying to make as much noise as possible, because half the shit you make a stink about is like so completely twisted up and makes no sense. Like, you freaked out about the mere thought of being ISO'd...

[Snork]

No I'm reading you perfectly fine, mate.

This is a scumclaim.

[Snork]

Well to me, you'd have to be stupid, blind or scum to be this short-sighted.

Why is it short-sighted? I know my alignment and I know that he's wrong. Which means either he's scum who is purposely trying to make me a viable lynch option or he's town with extremely unreliable reads. Given his join date and the way people have talked about his experience/skill, which do you think is more likely?

We can talk about pisskop, ThAd, Aptl, and Snork TOMORROW.

Why am I even in this list?

[Snork]

Talah (8): AP, pa, PV, aptil, luca, mastin, talah, snork
Luca (7): pmatt, DG, Nero, DV, RM, Yates, Zd

Not voting luca or talah: snow, ThAd, 4nx, BPC, pisskop

Snow, ThAd is not happening today.
BPC is behind and pisskop has disappeared.

ThAd and 4nx voting aptil with 1 day left to deadline.... are you

trying

to get a NL D1?Honest question...

Nero still never answered my questions to him regarding his attack on MR.

This entire situation is fucked up. Talah is scum and he's going to live another day because the off-wagon voters have already said they aren't interested in voting Talah and aren't even voting the other wagon, so the day could even end with no lynch and that is unacceptable.

I'm done. My vote has been made. If people want to be lazy then so be it. I'm gonna take a closer look at my nulls, and try to sort them out, like DV.

[Snork]

I agree that Snok's attempted CW to Thad is p bad. The leading wagon was Luca, so it was affectively an attempt at a not Luca lynch.

Where did I say it wasn't? In fact, I said it was:

How am I backtracking when I'm scumreading both of them? Talah's reads posts really made me pause, and Luca was at L-1, while Talah was at L-6. It wasn't happening. Plus, I wanted to see what kind of reaction that would get, but yeah I really wanna lynch ThAd too.

Also, "keeping Nero at arm's length"? What do you want me to do? I've engaged him and he refuses to answer the questions I posed to him about analyzing his own reads. We have less than 2 days left, I'm on the wagon of my choice, I've poked the people I was able to poke, and that's about it for the day for me. Thanks to ThAd and Nero, I may actually survive the night, but ThAd is still scum, and when he flips scum (or I flip town), that scumclaim post will be glaring you in the face.

What you fail to realize, Nero, is that I don't give a fuck how you think anything I do looks cuz I know what I'm doing and I know why. If you actually have any intention of determining the reasoning behind what I do, you'd ask, not just throw around empty accusations and rally for my lynch.

I've posted my reads multiple times and explained why I think certain people are scummy. People don't have to agree. I don't really care. My job is to be transparent and produce as much information as I can so that when I die it can be used effectively. My job isn't to belay your paranoia. Most of my reads are pretty solid at this point; there's only a few nulls to work out left, and flips will facilitate that. Of the nulls, I'm most interested in DeasVail and what he ends up doing.

[Snork]

AP, explain what you mean about the Zd kill?

[Snork]

You think scum would kill someone they were already trying to lynch?

[Snork]

I mean, if they knew they would flip town, and chose to push them during the day, why would they want to then flip them?

[Snork]

Both of them being town means a lot needs to be reevaluated. I think aptil or RM are good options, as well as going back to Gant.

I have some notes I wanted to share but they are at home. Will post my updated reads/thoughts later tonight.

[Snork]

Also pa... where is the rest of your catch-up? Your analysis? Nothing to say except sniping at Nero for voting you?

[Snork]

RM are you making the excuse for your vote on Luca that you were reading her based on a game you were in with her at the time where she had not flipped? Really?

[Snork]

A game where she supposedly was cleared?? And you had no reason to believe at that time the cop was lying since he flipped town cop... so you voted Luca based on that game where she was a "cleared" player...

Yeah that doesnt hold up Rach. That is the shittiest excuse ever, not to mention why are you bothering with excusing your vote? Do you feel guilty about it?

VOTE: RachMarie

[Snork]

Oh speaking of DV... I'd like his perspective of the wagons yesterday - what he was thinking at the time, from just before they tied up.

[Snork]

AP that post you quoted of 4nxi3ty's... I didn't catch it until you reposted it but he says "incoming mislynches" there which really kind of stands out. I'll have to go check the context on that but that doesn't bother you?

[Snork]

I just meant the usage of "incoming mislynches". Even if he was townreading both slots - I don't recall exactly which but I don't think he was - why would he call them that? The statement isn't about mastin; it's about 4nx. And not the point he was making.

[Snork]

Yes I know they flipped town. At the time of that post though, the flip is irrelevant because it hadn't happened yet.

[Snork]

Oh ffs... nevermind.

[Snork]

(Just realized that was posted today.)

[Snork]

meh

vote: Talah

more than willing to switch to Luca if it makes it further

This is weird.

[Snork]

The fact that both wagons were town really screws up everything I did yesterday, but I think the way to analyze this would be to first look at those people who flipped between the two wagons without much reasoning, especially earlier in the day.

end of day 1 VC

Switched sides.

Defended counter wagon.

Luca (VT) lynched D1:

Luca (11):

projectmatt, Damon_Gant,

DeasVail,

RachMarie,[/i] Yates,

talah,

ThAdmiral,

SnowStorm,

Nero Cain,

[/i] penguin_alien,

aptil

Talah (7):

AngryPidgeon, PeregrineV,

Luca Blight, Snork, Zdenek

,

4nxi3ty,

BipolarChemist

Yates (1): pisskop/TheWayItEnds

Demon_Gant (1): mastin2

The two that stand out the most are RachMarie and SnowStorm. I was actually pretty surprised with his switch to Luca, tbh. I don't remember who switched to talah [edit: ISO'd 4nx looking for something else, and found that he had switched from Luca to Talah - which is why I quoted that post in my last as weird], if anyone, after being on the Luca wagon. Penguin_alien's slot also switched but this occurred after the replacement, so I'm not really counting it here.

I still think ThAd is scum based on the way he was defending talah without logical reasoning, unlike DeasVail or Nero who easily gave me their thoughts on it. I also think I need to reread the whole game with this information and I really don't want to do that. It was a rough read the first time. But I'm also fucking pissed at the flips and I know my reads were probably all wrong.

Based on a few ISOs I did this morning and what I remember most, this is my updated list.

Post-flip reads:

Town:

DeasVail
Aptil
BipolarChemist

Probably town:

Yates
Nero Cain
AngryPigeon

Unknown/the rest:

Projectmatt
PeregrineV
Pisskop/TWIE
Mastin2

Could-be scum:

Penguin_alien
SnowStorm

Damon_Gant

4nxi3ty

Scum:

RachMarie
ThAdmiral

Also took a look at my reads list from before the flips to see if any connections sparked as far as I why I put them where I did and if the flips affected any of that. The above reads, obviously reflect those changes.

Pre-flip reads:

Town:

AP, mastin, Snow, pa

Probably town:

Yates, projectmatt, 4nxi3ty,

Zd

Null/very weak town:

pisskop, PV, DG,

Luca

Dead null:

BPC

Null/very weak scum:

Nero, DV

Probably scum:

RM,

aptil

Scum:

ThAd,

talah

---

Zdenek (VT) shot N1.
Talah (VT) shot N1 (by aptil)

As far as the nightkills, I'm inclined to believe aptil. I mean I really want to and don't really have a reason not to at this point.

I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to get out of the Zd kill, though I don't think it's likely scum chose to kill someone they were already pushing (re: AP's vote/push on pisskop/TWIE) unless they thought he softclaimed something. So, either I missed that or he didn't and there's some other reason he was killed.

I don't know. I'm not so good at NKA and I'm actually pretty hesitant to try cuz its all pretty much speculation. I've seen it used effectively to catch scum, though. I've also seen it effectively used by scum to frame someone else. Ugh.. talk about WIFOM. The very definition there...

I hate this right now. I'll be back later.

p-edit: Read up re: 4nx. Maybe sound forced cuz I don't know what the fuck to do now.

[Snork]

Nero I was responding to AP making the suggestion that pisskop must be scum because Zd was killed. I was explaining why I don't think that's useable logic cuz there are just as many reasons for that to not be the case as there are for it to be. I wasn't saying pisskop is not scum because he tried to lynch zd. I was saying that AP's reasoning for pushing pisskop today is confbias and not reliable. At least that's what I was getting at.

[Snork]

I don't know; that wasn't the point I was making at all. But I have to look at all the VC's again anyway so I'll let you know if I see something regarding Zd.

[Snork]

Post-flip reads:
Town:

DeasVail

Aptil

BipolarChemist

Why?

DeasVail because when I was poking at him yesterday about town-reading Talah, he answered me pretty naturally. At the time, I thought it was smoke because I was scumreading talah so hard. I'd originally had a pretty good townread on him until he started bucking the talah wagon anyway, and talah flipping town nullifies the entire argument I was forming on why he was scum.

BipolarChemist because I really really really liked his returning post.

[Snork]

Oh I forgot to explain why DG is italicized in my updated list.

Towards the end of the day, his posts became much better, and I was seeing some subtle town things in the way he was saying things that I didn't think scum would think to adjust.

He's in the could be scum list only because of the flips. I'd like to actually talk with him a bit today and sort that out, but gut tells me he is the most likely to be town out of those listed in could be scum and scum.

[Snork]

Fucking. Pisskop was scummy BEFORE the Zd kill. The Zd kill is more reason to vote him IMO, its not a fucking complete case on its own 2 legs.

This made me and I kinda think AP's town for the way he's pushing pisskop. Pisskop was sarcastic and rude, not scummy. I could see where he was coming from and in the end talah and luca both flipped town so any reads based on which of those anyone thought were scummy should be null and void.

[Snork]

lol... he's not lolmegatown. He's probably the most easily moved out of that section, but I like it. What do you want me to say? The flips hit me like a ton of bricks and I have a lot of shit to look over.

What are your updated reads right now, AP?

[Snork]

Town: Nero, Peregrine,

Anxiety

, aptil (pretty town for vig claim)
Probably town, want to talk to them more: Yates, mastin
Town? Possibly stale reads, could be (probably is?) a scum here: Snork, PA, Snowstorm, Damon Gant
Meh: Pmatt, RM
Scummy: TheWayItEnds, Bipolar, ThAdmiral,

DV

Ok cool. I disagree most with the bolded. The rest I either agree or I'm not sure enough to say (mostly, TWIE, PV, pmatt). Can you explain your PV town read?

And as far as stale reads, which of these were based on your talah read, do you remember?

[Snork]

Gant, you actually answered part of what I wanted to know, which was where your reads currently sit. I am personally not sure what conclusions to make from Zd's flip or kill, so as far as making a connection between that and anyone else I don't really know. It's not something I know how to use, or even I don't know that it CAN be used. Right now I'm focusing on sorting the reads that I had in connection to my read on Talah.

I think Rach's behavior towards the two wagons yesterday, and her attempt to excuse it all away today are really, really scummy, and that's kind of the direction I'm going in now. Also, 4nxi3ty saying he much preferred the Luca wagon, but voting Talah as a "compromise" and then never going back to Luca, despite that being his preferred lynch is rather strange.

[Snork]

(snork might be town for the "oops nvm you posted that today" - showed a genuine reaction imo along with taking time to look at a player and going back to look at the context)

Really? I dont see how making a point on someone and then taking it back because its provably wrong is a town tell?

I don't think it's an anything tell. I think it's me assuming (incorrectly) that you were ISOing people and pointed out something about 4nx from the previous day. The post you quoted wasn't significant when I came back to this thread so it didn't stand out until you quoted it. I assumed it was from before the lynch, so I commented on it. And I pushed that until 4nx responded that they both flipped town, which seemed an odd explanation for the quote, so I went back to check where that quote came from, and realized it was from today and not yesterday.

Not really sure what else there is to that but that.

lol... he's not lolmegatown. He's probably the most easily moved out of that section, but I like it. What do you want me to say? The flips hit me like a ton of bricks and I have a lot of shit to look over.

Using the flips as a wildcard excuse for reevaluating everything is a copout that Ive seen scum use before. I'd like you to say WHY it looks town? That was sort of the point of me engaging you about the post you said looked town.

wut? Are you seriously accusing me of excusing my read on BPC when I've stated multiple times where it comes from? I am reevaluating everything

cuz I was dead fucking wrong on talah

and not only that but Luca flipping town

as well

throws a huge wrench into my methods.

You

should

be reevaluating as well, yet you question ME about doing so?

Obviously I don't have a good answer for my BPC read. I never said it was rock solid, and even when you asked about him and DV together it should have been pretty clear based on the answer I gave you that it was a gut read, yet you are acting like this is news.

[Snork]

SnowStorm is playing a good game. I have him leaning Town but my confidence is shaky. When I start thinking I may be wrong, he responds with a strong post or good logic when pressed.

I haven't played with him enough to know what this means but I don't remember him being this - logical? focused? organized? - in Rocky Horror.

The bold is exactly the problem I am having with him. His posts are good but his votes are not. Was he scum or town in Rocky Horror?

[Snork]

And to add to that, AP, the only reason I even mentioned the flips is because continuing my ISOs will likely change my list. I already explained he's the weakest read in that section, and I have yet to ISO him.

[Snork]

That is not at all how I'm acting. In fact, you're asking me questions about my reads, and I'm answering in the context of my reread. How can you then say that I'm excessively talking about reevaluating when you're the one who keeps asking me about it?

Second, I never said he was a super strong townread. I even mentioned it yesterday when he posted that, that I liked the post and thought it made him town. I also never said it was based on talah or luca being town. I don't know if you are just not understanding what I'm saying if you are purposely trying to twist it to fit your agenda, but in either case, I'm not "refusing to talk" about it. That's all I've been doing.

It's not a strong read. There aren't a million details I can point to be all like "LOOK HOW TOWNIE HE IS" cuz it's not there.

I don't really know how many times I can answer the same question - IT'S A GUT READ BASED ON HIS RETURNING POST. IT SOUNDED GOOD TO ME. I LIKED THE THOUGHT PROCESSES, I LIKED THE RESPONSES.

I mean.. what the fuck do you want? Why are you all of a sudden so hung up on BPC? If you think he's scum, fucking push him.

[Snork]

No AP. I am getting frustrated with you because I've already answered the question and you just want to rush my process. Idgaf if you aren't satisfied with my reads. They make sense to me and if you're town, I hope they will eventually make sense to you. If you don't get the concept of how I group my reads, oh well. That's your problem, and not mine.

[Snork]

Yeah I get it AP. And I'm lazy. I haven't done that yet. I'm only getting prickly at you rushing me and seemingly not understanding that's all there currently is to that read. I didn't really read your response to his return post in depth yet cuz I'm busy. That doesn't mean it's not gonna happen here in the next day or so. But the more you pester me, the more time I spend just responding to you rather than doing the rest of my ISOs and it's not like I have unlimited posting time.

[Snork]

RM thad .. and one of 4nx or... I kinda wanna say PA. Despite how much I was townreading MR, I really dont like her lack of analysis thus far. I've read some of her other games and like... her posts here seem busy but unproductive. Also i am liking nero more and more so i think he might be onto something there just not sure yet.

[Snork]

Re-read your ISO. Changed my mind.

[Snork]

I'm actually going to stop posting while I'm working cuz I don't have the time to go back and find what it was, and I just seem to get myself into dumb arguments over that.

I'll be back later with my reasoning for the updates to my reads list.

[Snork]

His play in that game was similar to the play in this game but I was not able to talk about it.

Right. So, in

that

game, he was a cleared player, and as the town cop had already flipped, and you immediately voted the remaining player in LYLO there, you had no reason to believe Luca was scum. She was playing similarly here as she was there, yet here you voted her because you thought she was scum, even though she was playing the same as there, where she was a cleared player.


....

Why would you vote a player you thought was town? She was playing similarly, wasn't she? And she was cleared in that game, correct? Yet you voted her here...

...

Am I the only one who has a problem with this?

[Snork]

RIGHT. So Luca was "clear", playing similarly as here,

and yet you still voted!!

Please do not treat me like I am stupid or like I don't know how to play this game.

Read my posts. I did not "miss" that Luca was falsely cleared.

In fact, I read the entire last two days of that game.

So I know that despite Luca essentially being a town player there, and playing similarly here,

YOU STILL VOTED HER HERE

.

[Snork]

What you are saying IS A LIE and MAKES NO SENSE.

It does NOT explain why you voted. It does NOT justify your mysterious switch to Luca from Talah. It does NOT excuse your terrible scummy posts.

[Snork]

And IF you flip town, you'll be the first to join my blacklist.

[Snork]

Uhhhhhhhh. RM had a scumread on Luca in a newbie game. She thought he was playing the same here? She votes him?

I mean as far as reasons to vote someone go, thats weak, but I dont see how its as egregious as you are making it out to be.

Read what she said again. Luca was "cleared" by the town cop, who died before LYLO, flipped town cop. RM had

zero reason to believe at the time of her vote in this game

that Luca

in the Newbie game

was actually scum. In fact, she believed the cop clear so much, that she immediately voted the other player in LYLO. It only came up AFTER she voted Luca

HERE

that the cop was a newbie who

lied about his result

and Luca ended up being scum.

This happened AFTER the vote on Luca in THIS game.

At the time of her vote IN THIS GAME, Luca was CLEARED in the Newbie game. Luca was PLAYING SIMILARLY THERE AND HERE. Rach thought Luca was TOWN in the Newbie. Rach then VOTED LUCA HERE.

She is claiming that the reason she voted Luca here is because she was playing similarly there, EVEN THOUGH SHE THOUGHT LUCA WAS FUCKING TOWN THERE.

SO CONVINCED, SHE VOTED THE OTHER PERSON IN 3P LYLO

.

p-edit:

1) I am not a fucking newbie TYVM. So fuck off trying to discredit my reads.

2) I am not scumreading her for lying. I am scumreading her for trying to use a NON-REASON to justify her shitty hop onto the Luca wagon yesterday UNPROMPTED.