NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[ThAdmiral]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Lolz, I'll get on that

In other news I like being out of rvs within 3 live posts. While its sort of forced (what super early day 1 case stuff isn't) I still like rogers better for it.

I'm scum.

Lemme guess: "reaction testing"?

vote: bjc

There you go, now you can call me scum for "taking the bait".

[ThAdmiral]

That's even more scumtastic.

Obfuscation is now added to the lack of sincerity.

overstating a tad here

post 20 logic's got an overexplainy vibe

hyperagressive scum? shrug, too early to tell.

vote: Mister Rogers

"Too early to tell" but you'll vote him anyway?

ThAdmiral, is there any point to your vote on bjc other than to look town?

I just hate this sort of behaviour. And then he follows it up with "It's just a joke, sheesh" acting all surprised people are jumping on him after he claimed scum. Come on.

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Vote: ThAd

Just to clarify I'm not actually in a neighborhood.

Can you explain why you're white-knighting bjc so much?

[ThAdmiral]

So my question here is why the above fake-claim/joke is okay while mine isn't?

I didn't claim an anti-town role.

Also I left the bjc thing in because lynchbait can only be town, right? So you're townreading bjc? Why?

good question.

[ThAdmiral]

@ mastin: glad you think I'm town and all, and I agree with you on rogers but why is talah scum? Is it just because rogers was questioning her (?) early? I think talah reads pretty good personally.

[ThAdmiral]

1) Thad -- You are a very experienced player. Can you please explain to me why you are taking BJC's post so literally? If I didn't know it was you, I would think I was reading a low experience player.

Ok here's where I'm at.

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

Questions for you:
a) who are you an alt of?
b) why were you not in my neighbourhood mafia game? Would have been a perfect fit (although the game sort of sucked).

[ThAdmiral]

Well, I'm not really an alt of anyone but I have been playing Mafia for years on various sites. There is an account on this site (that I thought was lost but apparently its still here) called Lamont_Cranston.

Oh yes, my foggy memory banks are conjuring up vague recollections of a player with just such a name.

lol. I think I have heard of this game being mentioned many times; I just started playing Mafia again and well, I only play 1 game at a time and so, I guess I just missed it. It must of been pretty cool.

It was cool but sort of a failure from a design standpoint ( ). Mafia were a bit op.

@Thad: Well I guess the point is that my instinctual response is to simply ignore it and treat it as null and I have far less experience than you do.

Can you show me games where this has happened before and you reacted the same way?

I sort of have a rule where I don't provide links for my own meta (check my sig). I'm sure if you went looking, however, you would find me reacting in a very similar way in other games.

Are you interested in why I think it's multi-scum based on your one post? Because I have a clear though process on that, too.

Well I'm certainly interested.

Doc, scummy. Talah, scum. Doc could be scum. Talah

is

scum. Also, even if scum, there is such a thing as bussing. Especially in the RVS.

That said, while talah's scum...
VOTE: Damon Gant.
...My scumread here is much, much stronger.

You're going to have to explain the whole "Talah

is

scum" but "My scumread here (damon gant) is much, much stronger".

[ThAdmiral]

"Too early to tell" but you'll vote him anyway?

Should I be holding my vote back?

No, not really. It just read odd because you were like "do I think he's scum or not? unsure" but then you voted him, which indicates you do think he's scum.

Do you actually suspect bjc? If so, why? The only reason I find for your vote on him is that you don't like that he claimed scum.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm voting him.

I don't think I'm white-knighting him. I mean I don't have a take on him yet. I do think that the people voting him over claiming scum are somewhat scummy - you for trying to dodge the accusation of taking the bait by making light of it in your post, and Gant for voting him while only saying that he found his post peculiar, plus making out of game excuses.

I don't like that you are accusing me of white-knighting someone you're voting.

Maybe white-knighting isn't the right term. Chainsaw defending?

[ThAdmiral]

Ok time for some proper analysis.

Mister rogers - good aggressive start to the game to get us out of rvs. town
Talah - I like his 87, and I don't see scum taking on mastin and challenging his meta so blatantly. town
Damon gant - There's something about the way he posts that screams slightly-inexperienced town. Stubbornly going after bjc, questioning zdenek for accusing him of being scum without any explanation. town
Doc holliday - seems ok to me but hasn't done much. Null-leaning-town

Perev - not enough to go on. null
luca blight - not enough to go on. only mentioning the bjc situation looks bad though. still, null.

bjc - the scum claim itself is null (but annoying). The fact that his scum reads are based solely off people who voted him, and the fact that he has only interacted with people who voted him/questioned him looks bad. leaning-scum.
Zdenek - what's it up to now 6 scum reads and no town reads? Bullshit alarm is going off. scum
Anxiety - weak vote on rogers, weak vote on gant. leaning scum
Aptil - weak reads and a questionable read on bjc (as pointed out by talah). Null-leaning-scum

there's more people but I'll look at them later

vote: zdenek

[ThAdmiral]

Oh and ThAd is literally voting me for scum-hunting.

But you're not scumhunting, are you? You're just saying so-and-so is scum, and you're spreading your net wide. I would expect a normal town player who is actually trying to determine people's alignments to have come up with approximately the same amount of scum reads as town reads.

Ok time for some proper analysis.

Just throwing this in. I tend to agree with you that Mastin was buddying you earlier regarding your first post.

I don't think I actually said that tbh.

Damon gant - There's something about the way he posts that screams slightly-inexperienced town.

this isn't his first rodeo

Yeah it's probably his 3rd or something. I still consider that inexperienced.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok I take back everything I said about zdenek. The fake-vig was golden. bipolar is now basically conf-town, that reaction doesn't look fake at all. Zdenek - well he's porbably smart enough to pull off something like that as scum, but I'm not buying it. Town.

unvote

vote: 5nxi7ty

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd

??

Ok I take back everything I said about zdenek. The fake-vig was golden. bipolar is now basically conf-town, that reaction doesn't look fake at all.

I'm a sucker for a fake vig gambit. Normally they read contrived to me but I like this one.

I would expect a normal town player who is actually trying to determine people's alignments to have come up with approximately the same amount of scum reads as town reads.

At this stage of the game that's just silly.

Why?

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

How can those reads have any validity without a read on bjc?

Actually this is a good question.

[ThAdmiral]

Why?

Why in God's name should anyone have the same number as town reads as scum reads?

Not necessarily exactly the same, but I would expect at least 1 or 2.

@ mr rogers: wow a lot to respond to there. Kinda sad you have this whole paragraph about me and I'm still only null
It's sort of annoying that most of your reservations against me are based on the, perhaps misguided, belief that I'm some amazing and wise player. It actually made me chuckle a bit. That being said I've found the "lots of scum reads, no town reads" to be a pretty decent scumtell in the past - it's funny that since you value my experience so highly you would so instantly dismiss one of the only reads I actually based on personal experience!

[ThAdmiral]

Are you pushing ZD as scum with me here? I mean are you seriously doing that? Am I misunderstanding you?

You cleared ZD didn't you?

nah zd's good.

See what gets me is you pushed on this "reads" issue without addressing the content nor valuing the benefit of that content. I also don't understand why you would even bring this up since ZD is strong town for you now, right?

Because you are questioning my read of zd

at the time

. That is before he did the fake dayvig gambit.
And I believe I did address the content - Post 201:

Oh and ThAd is literally voting me for scum-hunting.

But you're not scumhunting, are you?

You're just saying so-and-so is scum, and you're spreading your net wide

. I would expect a normal town player who is actually trying to determine people's alignments to have come up with approximately the same amount of scum reads as town reads.

You must remember (and once again this is

at the time

, and I'm cool with zd now) that his scumhunting was just him quoting a bunch of people voting bjc and then saying "I've caught another one!".

[ThAdmiral]

I've read a game with you in it and you were a powerful and wise scum hunter there; a true presence to be reckoned with. Making scum tremble.

God what game was this?
You're making me blush.

[ThAdmiral]

\What do you think of Yates querying you on ZD?

Well my read of zd's fakevig and bipolar's reaction is based entirely off gut-feels. I'd be surprised if there were people who

didn't

have a different reaction.

[ThAdmiral]

2) You said you noted their interaction

at the time

which was RVS; I can only assume you meant scum buddying? If not, what did you mean? I saw potential scum buddying because its a thing scum can do in RVS (I'm sure Mastin has info about this).

Just to clarify here: who buddying with who?

[ThAdmiral]

\What do you think of Yates querying you on ZD?

Well my read of zd's fakevig and bipolar's reaction is based entirely off gut-feels. I'd be surprised if there were people who

didn't

have a different reaction.

So your read of Chem's reaction is only "gut"?

Well its "gut" in that I have no proof to back it up or anything. Like there are some reactions that just seem real to me, and some that seem false and (although I said I wasn't all that good in an earlier post) I think I'm pretty decent at distinguishing the two. If I

had

to quantify it I think scum (particularly scum that figured it was fake) would have made more of a strop about it and complained and gotten faux-angrier about it. Bipolar sort of just jokes about it - and the asking to see if he could post before the mod confirmed his "death" just feels genuine.

And you expect others not to agree with your gut?

Well to put it another way I'd be surprised if EVERYONE agreed with my gut read.

I noticed some posting earlier that if it turns out scum have daytalk would look pretty suspicious based on the right flips.

Since there's no real way to find out if the scum have daytalk or not are you willing to reveal these? Or is this information best revealed after other shit has gone down and we have some flips?

All I could come up with was that

she

was indicating I was an excellent push-target for the other team.

umm Mastin is a he

HOW WELL

DO

YOU KNOW MASTIN TALAH?

[ThAdmiral]

Well its "gut" in that I have no proof to back it up or anything. Like there are some reactions that just seem real to me, and some that seem false and (although I said I wasn't all that good in an earlier post) I think I'm pretty decent at distinguishing the two. If I

had

to quantify it I think scum (particularly scum that figured it was fake) would have made more of a strop about it and complained and gotten faux-angrier about it. Bipolar sort of just jokes about it -

and the asking to see if he could post before the mod confirmed his "death" just

feels

reads genuine.

Ok, so here we now agree (with the appropriate edit). So really, its more than gut right?

I suppose so.

It seems everyone is giving Mastin a pass due to self-meta (including Thad who specifically forbids it for himself)

Just to clarify I don't necessarily give people a free pass due to self-meta (although I don't find it as useful as other people might think it is for the very reason you go on to state) I just don't provide my own self-meta to anyone who asks for it. If they want it they can go and find it themselves. Reason: laziness.

completely agree with pere's 294 - I can understand not having a scum-read on bjc, but there is really no way people should have a townread on him. This goes to rogers, projectmatt and potentially others I forgot.

I'm scum.

Town.

*sigh*

In other news I like being out of rvs within 3 live posts. While its sort of forced (what super early day 1 case stuff isn't) I still like rogers better for it.

No opinion on Talah's half of this?

I do get to it if you read on.

vote: Yates

Because 323. Nope, that's a lot of not matching my limited experience with him.

Can you elaborate?

Anxiety is pretty town.

UNVOTE: ; VOTE: Talah

Why do we always disagree about everything?

Ok I take back everything I said about zdenek. The fake-vig was golden. bipolar is now basically conf-town, that reaction doesn't look fake at all.

Wow. I expected something more pragmatic from you at least. Thank fuck Yates has the common sense to recognize a nulltell when he sees one.

and the asking to see if he could post before the mod confirmed his "death" just feels genuine.

No? That trust in Zdenek being honest feels entirely misplaced and over-the-top nonchalant.

-On 4nxi3ty
He's logical, and I've seen him before,

but something about his posts unsettle me

. Watching.

It's probably, you know, his lack of content and lack of conviction in his reads.

[ThAdmiral]

Why do we always disagree about everything?

Is it because you received a mafia role PM this game? I dont think we've been the same alignment ever. (Usually Im scum not you though )

Holy shit you're right. not about the me having a scum pm, but I literally think we've never had the same alignment!

[ThAdmiral]

271 is odd because I wouldn't expect 'gut-feels' to have the impact that they did on ThAd's reads.

I would very much like Thad to address this.

My response is: why not? Gut feels are some of the most compelling reasons to change an opinion. When I started playing I used to not trust them but now I consider them a valuable tool.

It's probably, you know, his lack of content.

not true. Sure I'm not doing what the majority is doing (flooding the thread with quote stripes and readslist), but I'm still throwing ideas out there and interacting with multiple people.

I haven't seen you take one firm position on anyone or anything.


I'm still a bit behind, up to page 18.

[ThAdmiral]

Bjc townread

I believe there is more credit to the townreads based on his first post than some people think. Actually consider it.

Scum generally want to avoid attention. This already makes his post quite undesirable for scum, and I think that someone fairly new (as bjc seems to be) would be especially hesitant to do something so potentially controversial. The other scum option is to attract attention, and use it to create early townreads on oneself (e.g. by claiming scum and then making it clear it was a reaction test and 'scumhunting' from it). However, the posts that follow his 'scumclaim' seem to suggest that he isn't trying to look good, but at the same time, the fact that he actually scumhunts from it leads me to conclude that he's genuinely scumhunting while not being showy about it as I feel scum would be.

I just want to point out here that he has succeeded in avoiding attention. He has one vote (mine) and 9000 people townreading him.

Yeah I think next time I'm scum I'm going to claim scum at the start of the game and then just ride the townread wave all the way to victory.

oh lordy this game is making my eyes bleed. It's going to be tough for players to catch up and dig for scum interactions if this keeps up. (imma take a break from posting in this thread til tomorrow night, take some time to actually read shit instead of skimming, and hopefully make some room for some less active players to get involved)

yeah AP, I don't see anything wrong with DV's other reads - yet there's bound to be scum sidling up to my lynch by now - why I want to hear more from him to make sure.

pisskop and roger attacks were fairly reasonable, guts undecided on thad.

More strong stances form 2nxi6ty.

Can we just wagon someone please? At this stage I don't even care if it's me.

Instead of yourself how about joining me on the anxiety wagon?
The bonus is he's actually scum!

How can I be the only person voting him?

[ThAdmiral]

I think I agree with this.

VOTE: bjc

@bjc

- Is voting for you the only way to extract content?

No... Not at all.

Are you voting me because you think I'm scummy or just to be stupid?

What have you actually provided without being voted first?

[ThAdmiral]

And if I'm content with lurking?

Is everyone still townreading him?

If anything, I believe his refusal to play seriously under pressure actually kind of solidifies my townread of him.

About bjc. I'm leaning town on him. Mostly because of all the flak he's gotten.

Fucking hell.

[ThAdmiral]

I mean I kind of just stumbled onto this but its really kind of bizarre how this all went down and you both end up taking the exact same tact. Is there any explanation for this?

We're not neighbors...we're lovers!

btw I am actually keeping up with this game but I'm at work and can't really post at length.

[ThAdmiral]

So here's what's going to happen with my pet scumlurker over the next few days:

HAI LUCA

He'll post just around or after the next dodge with an opinion on one or two of the non-controversial but mentioned players, probably laying down suspicion on someone like bjc or a quizzical query on Admiral or Pere.

A couple of days later, he'll apologise for lack of content again, and promise a catch up in the next couple of days.

He'll come back with three or four days from deadline and post a strong position on a townie for bad reasons. Then he'll attack one or two popular alternatives, very gently mind you, and place his vote on said strong-positioned townie. Posting twice or three times in the process!

Then two days out from deadline he'll say his vote needs to change to the most popular town candidate for lynch, and if there's opportunity or division close to deadline, he'll compromise on whatever townie's available.

I'm an Oracle.

Best post 2014.

Reaction Test: failed. YOU have been playing mafia too long to be dumb enough to think that was an ACTUAL scum slip accusation.

If I were scum I'd push that point and call it a "slip" until you were hanged.

Point of that post, though, is that it's dumb to tell people what you would do as scum and to try to pretend that the fact you aren't doing that is why you are town even though you just showed that you are aware of your scum meta and could therefore alter your meta accordingly.

Wait. Aren't you doing exactly that? Saying what you would do as scum? See bolded.

I don't care about Mastin...I don't care about Apitil...I don't care about Thad. The only thing I do care about is lynching your scum ass but this will be like Harry Potter where I peg the scum and derp town don't listen to me.

It would help if you read the entire game, posted more, and presented your case on mister rogers clearly and in dot points. I've got to say it's going to be a tough sell because rogers is on a lot of people's town-lists, me included.

Ya, thats pretty bad. People voting on a lone wagon should consider changing that.

Anx is my strongest scumread by far. I'm actually sort of bemused as to why I've been the only person voting him all game. I know 6 days isn't a lot but I still feel there's a little bit of time before we have to start condensing wagons and narrowing down our choice to just a couple.

Like of the wagons with more than 1 vote (and we're talking about a situation where the largest wagon has an almighty 3 on it, so its really no great difference anyway) I have no interest in voting talah or damon gant, luca blight is just a straight up lurker and that would be a cop out, yates and pisskop are in my null pile but I feel like I would like them to stick around a bit longer, leaving bjc as the only wagon I'd be happy with - but even there he's just replaced out and I feel the replacement deserves a chance to at least read up on the game and post some thoughts.

How do people feel about 4nxi3ty? Every reread of the ISO I do makes me feel worse about him.

Unvote: Luca Blight
Vote: 4nxi3ty

Happy to switch back to Luca if that's what people want, but we are at the stage of the day now where we need to be wagoning, so I want to try a new angle.

734 for reasons.

YES!

Good man.

More pls.

[ThAdmiral]

ATTENTION EVERYONE

Well who is the scum here then? If he believes that there is nearly always a scum involved with meta talks then surely this should be top priority line of inquiry for him.

nah, I'll leave that for later. Rather have mastin around before getting into that shit. Perfectly fine as a loose end, someone else can pick it up maybe, or I can if I'm still around.

Not sure how you feel? What does that even mean? It looks like he's just keeping it open to use this against DV later if he feels like it.

story of my life this game: be honest about my uncertainty->get accused of leaving my options open.

Oh woe is me!

Do you see how he just complains about people thinking he's scum and STILL HE AVOIDS TAKING A STANCE. Look at the bit about Mastin. He's not even attempting to derive a scumread out of something that he himself brought up. He even suggest someone else doing it. Wtf?

This is what came up when I typed "anxiety wagon" in to google.



ALRIGHTY EVERYONE, HOP ABOARD!!!




(yes I'm campaigning now, its come to that)

[ThAdmiral]

I know what you're thinking: what will I get if I jump on board the anxiety wagon?

Well here are the benefits:

- you get to combine forces with renowned and venerable scumhunter Mr T. Hadmiral
- your avatar will be "photoshopped" on to the delightful picture of google's very own Anxiety Wagon, complete with what I believe is a small daschund
-

you will be voting for scum

[ThAdmiral]

LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WE'RE HAVING!!!

[ThAdmiral]

I go away for one day and there's 14 fucking pages, are you kidding me?

Page 33: rip in peace Anxiety wagon. You know what's funny is that no one seems to have a problem with the wagon itself, just the people on the wagon. It's like no one even mentions anxiety or anything to do with anxiety about why the wagon isn't good. I'm mainly looking at snowstorm, ap, pisskop here.

Page 34: pisskop and snork fight. They both seem pretty abrasive so its entertaining, but otherwise unenlightening.

Page 35: pisskop v snork continues. As does rogers v nero. If I had to pick sides I'd go with snork and rogers, but I have little interest in lynching any of these people. Well, I could probably be convinced to vote pisskop if it came down to it.

Page 36: More rogers v nero.

Page 37: Rogers encourages nero to give input on people other than rogers. Rach states rogers v nero feels like t v t. I have to agree.
talah jumps off the anxiety wagon. What it's still the equal largest with a paltry 3 votes?
LIKE ITS ALL GOOD AND WELL TO BE DISSIN' PEOPLE'S WAGONS, BUT THEN YOU GOTTA PROVIDE A DECENT ALTERNATIVE. AND I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE LUCA IS A FUCKING COP OUT.

Page 38:

LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WE'RE HAVING!!!

Haha that is funny. You are coming across as town to me, as is Pisskop, so I will go ahead and UNVOTE: Pisskop

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

This seriously needs lynching. This is the best contribution he could come up with? Not to mention he said he wouldn't post reads until giving the thread his full attention. This does not look like the post of someone who has given the thread 15 minutes.

Then vote him? My townread on gant is wavering.

Talah votes himself. Why do people do this? ffs

Page 39: Deas vail returns. his shortlist to lynch is: anxiety, pisskop, aptil. Not a bad list. Talah v snork forms, the ultimate battle of cat v dog.

Page 40: luca blight reappears and jumps on the growing talah wagon. He is a bit of a serial wagon jumper isn't he? I feel like he's going to cop flack for this, and he'll deserve it too.
I have to say I like snork's posting. He seems to be trying to get a genuine read on people, like talah, instead of just looking for ways to twist words and condemn them.

Page 41: this page is entirely rogers, talah, snork and is about the most inane shit you can imagine.

page 42: oh my fucking god will you idiots shut up! This was so frustrating to read.
so this is why I wake up to 14 fucking pages.

page 43:

WTF are you all arguing about?

snowstorm summarising my thoughts exactly

It's not worth reading, trust me. None of it.

Snork, to his credit, accurately describing the previous few pages

Snork and Snowstorm trade reads. Not terrible lists but I'm in both scum piles so I don't love them

that

much.

Page 44: Matt comes back in and votes luca blight. Gant also votes blight. I'll be surprised if luca isn't the lynch today but I still can't help feeling its a bit of a cop out.

Well, let me ask, what do you think of Luca?

Luca is scummy as heck. Obvscum. But he is also low hanging fruit. He's great bus material. He's a bad analysis wagon (imo -- am I wrong?); we'd probably be doing scum a favor by lynching him (I know sounds bizarre but if you don't get my point, meh).

Here's the other thing: On the off chance that Luca is town (I don't believe it for a second BUT he does seem to being scummy in a way, deliberately) that will DEFINITELY be a bad wagon to analyze because everybody and his brother wants to vote Luca -- and you know what? Something is wrong with that. But hey, don't get me wrong the dewd is obvscum.

This is a pretty good post that more or less describes my feelings about the luca wagon.

page 45:

@ZD: No, votes for Luca are not scummy but in my opinion, they are a great place for scum to be bussing & maybe even hiding (their votes).

Then again if luca does get lynched his wagon will be a pretty decent place to go looking for scum, no matter what he flips.

Looks like the Luca wagon is picking up steam. Still not sure why but whatever.

It's because he's not posting for stretches and then coming in to place a wagon vote. It's pretty obvious really.

I don't want to read the talah-bert rogers-snork threesome so was there anything important there?

No.
I read it all and... just no.

Nero jumps on the luca wagon, stating that regardless of alignment players like this should be lynched. I think that's something we've always disagreed with.
Rogers accuses nero of bussing.

page 46:

I sure hope pages 37 to 46 are less pedantic bullshit than p 36 was.

Uh I don't think you're going to like page 41-43 all that much...

page 47: I don't like mr rogers trying to bully deas vail in to scumreading talah. To be honest I'm not convinced that talah is scum either. I think he's acting stupid particularly in regards to the self-vote and the whole not answering snorks question for 3 pages, but that type of stubbornness reminds me of myself when I'm town and being attacked.

[ThAdmiral]

Has Thad been like this uber town scum hunting presence no (but his last post was pretty good except my gosh did you really try to say Talah not scum hunting is a symptom of people attacking him? I mean REALLY!?)

I think sometimes people can get caught up in siege mentality where you go uber-defensive and uber-stubborn. I say this from my own presonal experience, I'm not sure if Talah is the same way as I've never played with him before. I'm just not as quick to condemn him as others.

[ThAdmiral]

I never lie about real life issues, including my experience, including any real life circumstances, anything which isn't "really" game related. Not as any alignment.

You have more than 8 games experience. Why did you try to pretend that was all you had and use that as an excuse for your scummy behavior?

Why have you misrepped the meta case against you THREE times. Not ONCE have you properly responded to it.

You are scum.

I gotta say I have a problem with the meta case as well. Apart from the fact that I feel meta can be overrated as a scumhunting tool, I simply don't think you can get an accurate meta read on someone who has played 8 games on this site. I had a cursory look myself (something I hate doing because I'm lazy) and while there was a

general trend

of "active posting + scumhunting = town, less active + less scumhunting = scum" it was from a very small sample size, many of which talah replaced in to or out of (or, in one example, both). As far as I can tell talah was only scum twice: 1) semi experimental - a 9 player mini that went for 18 pages, and 2) epic XD mafia - a game in which he didn't post until 304, and then replaced out 14 posts later.

I don't think there's a case to be made based on meta.

And just pointing out, this is NOT a meta case. Its a case that is being confirmed by meta. I don't normally use meta very much anyway.

Ok, but all I've seen from you in the last 10+ pages is meta. I honestly don't remember anything meta-based.

Talah's posts, actions, and votes have a verifiable history IN THIS THREAD of being scum. There are

verifiable inconsistencies, a neglect to scum hunt, lies, opportunistic votes, and unwillingness to be accountable for his reads/actions IN HIS ISO

. Stop ignoring it!

Can you give examples for each point you've raised? From what I remember talah copped a lot of flack because he was being obstinate and for doing stupid stuff like voting himself which I still don't think is necessarily a scumtell.

If Luca is town he is the worst player I've ever played with. He's got to be scum, right?

Logic dictates he should be, but sadly players like this can often flip town as well.

[ThAdmiral]

So...we just lynch Talah and go from there? I'd prob be ok with that.

Don't throw in the towel just yet. I'm the closest to being convinced to vote rogers as I have been this game.

[ThAdmiral]

So...we just lynch Talah and go from there? I'd prob be ok with that.

Don't throw in the towel just yet. I'm the closest to being convinced to vote rogers as I have been this game.

Rogers ain't happening today and don't you give replacing slots some leeway?

Is he actually replacing? I took that as an overreaction that he's going to back down on.

[ThAdmiral]

So anyways, why do you want to vote Roger?

Mainly because of the whole vote bullying thing he's been doing. I also agree that when he first addressed you it sounded odd (the whole "hey I see you're voting me, what do you think of these other people").
Also I realise my townread on him was basically because he was posting a lot, and that's not actually a good reason to have a townread on someone.

[ThAdmiral]

Rach's post literally make no sense; why would I jump off the wagon of the player with the second highest votes, to someone with no votes? How is that targeting low hanging fruit? I said his posts seem scummy, I never mentioned his V/LA. Rach is the one going for low-hanging fruit, not me.

This is actually a decent point from luca, and it makes rach look bad - as if she just wanted in on the wagon without being too controversial.

[ThAdmiral]

OK, STOP THE PRESSES. I'VE FOUND SCUM!

Basically I don't like either leading wagons tbh. So I decided to look back through the thread to try to rally support for an independent third party.

Obviously I knew I was happy to lynch

Anxiety

for coasting and having wishy-washy reads.

But I also found

Rach marie

- for coasting, voting nero because apparently he is more active when he's town (a poor reason to vote, also on a person who wasn't around to defend themselves at the time - smacks of a vote park), and trying to sneak on to the luca wagon uncontroversially with a hypocritical reason (going after low-hanging fruit).

But then I looked at

Aptil

.

If you haven't done it yet ISO him. He only has around 30 posts so it won't take long.

- he is also scummy for coasting
- he is scummy for post 1216 in which he hedges his bets on bjc/snork (he says snork is town-posting, but bjc replaced out scummily)
- he is scummy for accusing dg of being a "dodgy character" for not joining the talah wagon in 1236 even though

he himself had not joined the talah wagon at this point

- he is scummy for eventually voting talah but

never really providing a reason as to why he thinks he is scummy

other than claiming that he is "bad all over" in his

first post

- NOTE: This is even while in 595 he reads luca as scum, he suggest that luca and talah are scum together in 1214 and 1224, but then in 1279 states: "VOTE: Talah- This is much better than lynching Luca". Um, Why?

Fact: he lacks internal consistency. Verdict: he is scum and must hang.

THERE IS STILL TIME.

TALAH IS STUBBORN BUT PROBABLY TOWN, LUCA IS TROLLING BUT IS JUST AS LIKELY TOWN AS SCUM

JOIN ME AND I WILL LEAD YOU TO VICTORY

VOTE: APTIL

[ThAdmiral]

Also, ThAd's vote on aptil is at best, really odd. I didn't like that.

Please tell me what's odd about it. I don't like either leading wagon. I don't want to vote for either talah or luca.

Also, ThAd's vote on aptil is at best, really odd. I didn't like that.

Are you thinking Luca-ThAd scum team? talah-ThAd scum team? What? I have to double check but my impression of ThAd is that he'd bus his mother.

Or maybe they're both town and ThAd would like to distance himself from both of their wagons? I can't quite pick apart what the motive was, but I just didn't get it from a town POV. At least when he was on 4nx it seemed like he was on some one-man crusade he did believe in. Moving his vote onto another dead wagon...I don't know, just something doesn't feel right. It feels tokenistic - something I'd attribute to scum rather than town.

Anxiety wagon wasn't going anywhere. On looking back at the game I felt I had a strong case against aptil, furthermore many people had expressed suspicion on him and he was in a lot of people's scum lists. I genuinely thought it had a chance to take off. 3 days is (was) plenty of time. I've seen successful counter wagons formed in less than an hour if the town has its shit together. Once again no one is really saying "no I don't want to lynch aptil" it's all "well I don't want to split the vote". If everyone actually voted instead of wavering we might have been able to push it through.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

It is to me cuz I don't think scumreading Luca makes sense.

So you think its illogical to scumread Luca and yet

Probably town: Yates, projectmatt, 4nxi3ty, Zd

all of those are Luca voters

+ if Talah is scum she's going to have buddies that are bussing her.

AND if you still think Talah is scum then it makes zero sense to unvote her and attempt a Thad flash wagon.

If Talah flips town who is scum on the wagon and why?

This a million times, especially bolded. Snork scum.

unvote, vote: aptil

This is probably my favourite post in the game so far. Tears of joy are in my eyes. Have I been wrong about anxiety?

APTIL WAGON LIVES!!!!

ALL ABOARD!!!!

[ThAdmiral]

This a million times, especially bolded. Snork scum.

If you think I'm scum, you either do not know how to read anyone or you are scum misreading me on purpose.

No I'm reading you perfectly fine, mate.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

I don't believe you actually think that is why we voted you.

Please do tell then.

[ThAdmiral]

lol, keep digging

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd and 4nx voting aptil with 1 day left to deadline.... are you

trying

to get a NL D1?Honest question...

I know it's an unpopular position on this site but I'd literally rather no-lynch than lynch someone I think is town.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

Where'd Snow_Storm say the first bit?

No one said those exact words, but I'm reading between the lines on the timing in which they attacked me - right after I tried to start a counterwagon.

[ThAdmiral]

fuck it I'd rather talah stay around than luca

vote: luca

[ThAdmiral]

TheAdmiral, what occurred within the space of five minutes to change your opinion from this:

I know it's an unpopular position on this site but I'd literally rather no-lynch than lynch someone I think is town.

to this:

fuck it I'd rather talah stay around than luca

vote: luca

? Also, if you've read Talah's posts, he has made it clear he doesn't intent to 'stay around' even if he isn't lynched as he has apparently had enough of this game.

A lot of things but the tl;dr is I changed my mind.

I feel if talah lives to day 2 he will stay around.

[ThAdmiral]

TheAdmiral, what occurred within the space of five minutes to change your opinion from this:

I know it's an unpopular position on this site but I'd literally rather no-lynch than lynch someone I think is town.

to this:

fuck it I'd rather talah stay around than luca

vote: luca

? Also, if you've read Talah's posts, he has made it clear he doesn't intent to 'stay around' even if he isn't lynched as he has apparently had enough of this game.

A lot of things but the tl;dr is I changed my mind.

I feel if talah lives to day 2 he will stay around.

You deserve a better explanation than that.

1) I'm not as bullish about you being town as I am with talah (although if I had to bet I would say you are probably town as well)
2) It is less about killing you than it is about saving talah

Basically I realized that while I could have stubbornly stuck to my guns I would rather have some say in who gets lynched after all.

Talah saying he and Luca are equally good lynches and then self voting despite being the smaller wagon is just ham and bad. Luca hasn't been selfvoting or otherwise saying hes a good lynch as far as I remember.

Stupid plays like this are stupid for either alignment, and I would say even more unlikely from scum.

Talah has had more meaningful interactions with other people . Analysing his wagon would be more useful than Luca on day2 . We have a good deal of information to go by from there on .

Just pointing out that this is scum bullshit.

OH FUCK YES A TRIPLE POST!!!

You've finally upgraded from mere double posts.

I hate the Luca wagon marginally less than the talah one. I thought there were a couple of people on aptil when I voted; apparently not.

Definitely plan on revisiting this tomorrow.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

I don't believe you actually think that is why we voted you.

Please do tell then.

Both Snork and I had expressed suspicion over you and had you in our scum tiers. It's naive to think that we'd just start a CW on you because you started one, and for some reason you don't strike me like the naive type.

That fake-interpretation of our actions was just a way to discredit our attempted CW on you because you present a silly hypocrite reason that was never given by us and ignore the actual reasons behind the vote.

I'm still waiting for these supposed actual reasons btw.

And don't try and pretend you didn't use the negative sentiment surrounding me because of my proposed counterwagon in an attempt to get a wagon started on me. Otherwise why vote me right then and not any time earlier in the day?

Aptil is a newb, who I have a decent ability to read.

And? He only has about 30 posts, so it shouldn't take long.

I know it's an unpopular position on this site but I'd literally rather no-lynch than lynch someone I think is town.

fuck it I'd rather talah stay around than luca

vote: luca

Lucy. You've got some 'splainin' to do.

See above.

Btw I really appreciate your anxiety read. Where the fuck were you earlier when we may have been able to push a lynch through on him?

[ThAdmiral]

Had a little accident involving a mandolin making breakfast this morning.

That's like one of my worst fears.

in other news

vote: aptil

[ThAdmiral]

Is it that reasonable? I mean, would we start a counter-wagon on someone just because they did it too? That's just dumb, especially when you're not taking our reads in consideration. Would we start a CW on ThAd if we did not have a scum read on him? Well, I wouldn't. So to think that we'd start a CW on ThAd just because he had started one too, not taking into account our reads on him, is not reasonable at all. Add to that that he did knew we had scum reads on him, so it's not like he wasn't aware like you're suggesting.

Spoiler:

Snork and Snowstorm trade reads. Not terrible lists but I'm in both scum piles so I don't love them

that

much.

His reaction was just bad and the only purpose it had was to discredit our votes on him based on something he "assumed" for no logical reason.

Vote: ThAdmiral

Ok I'm going to take you back to how things were going down at that time. This is going to be fairly in depth and since the main purpose is to clear all this up for you I'm going to spoiler it. Other people are welcome to read it if they want but I doubt they will find it too interesting.

Spoiler:

ok so we are back at page 58 and I've just tried to start a counterwagon from the main two wagons on aptil.

Not many people commented on the suggestion, however Deas vail said "maybe tomorrow" (post 1446) and yates suggested me voting luca instead (post 1461).

In post 1463 snork analyses the people on the various wagons, and at the end of the post says:

-- Also, ThAd trying to split the votes with his aptil "epiphany"...

Here snork clearly indicates he thinks I am scummy for creating a counterwagon, particularly one with express intention of splitting the votes.

Gant in 1471 also says:

Also, ThAd's vote on aptil is at best, really odd. I didn't like that.

Yates questions Gant about it in 1477:

Are you thinking Luca-ThAd scum team? talah-ThAd scum team? What? I have to double check but my impression of ThAd is that he'd bus his mother.

Gant replies and elaborates on his position:

Or maybe they're both town and ThAd would like to distance himself from both of their wagons? I can't quite pick apart what the motive was, but I just didn't get it from a town POV. At least when he was on 4nx it seemed like he was on some one-man crusade he did believe in. Moving his vote onto another dead wagon...I don't know, just something doesn't feel right. It feels tokenistic - something I'd attribute to scum rather than town.

Gant is showing how he feels I could be scum now because I started a counterwagon - not necessarily because a counterwagon is in itself scummy, but because my attempt felt tokenistic.

Snork adds in:

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Which is where you come in with:

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Now it's possible that I've misinterpreted your reason for voting me, but I don't think I misinterpreted snork's. He himself expressed suspicion due to me trying to form a counterwagon, and also responded to gant's argument that my attempted counterwagon made me look scummy. The timing of your vote lead me to believe that you were also jumping on for similar reasons. You say you weren't. Ok. But looking at the history and timing of everything can you still say that it is

illogical

for me to think what I did?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still waiting for these supposed actual reasons btw.

And don't try and pretend you didn't use the negative sentiment surrounding me because of my proposed counterwagon in an attempt to get a wagon started on me. Otherwise why vote me right then and not any time earlier in the day?

You're waiting, since when? You never showed any interest in the reasons behind my read on you until now. Well, this approach is actually one of them. You just don't seem interested in getting reads on people. Like you say, you're just waiting, waiting for people to do something "scummy" that you can throw against them. Your posts just don't show a town mindset.

Honestly I saw myself on a number of scumlists but couldn't remember much, if any, reasons why. I generally don't respond to people unless they make a case against me because otherwise what am I responding to? I feel like I've responded to most questions that have been asked of me however.

I don't understand what you mean by me "waiting for people to do something "scummy" that I can throw against them". Can you point out where I've done this? The point is sort of baffling to me.

I did not vote you because of your attempted Aptil CW. I voted you because at that moment I wasn't happy with either of the main wagons and Snork had expressed that he'd like your lynch too. So I decided to give it a shot. I must say though that I do think your suspicion of Aptil is BS, so yeah I didn't like that you tried to start a counterwagon on him, but it wasn't the act in itself that made me vote you.

Ok, can you explain why my suspicion of aptil is bs? I don't think you've mentioned this before but I'd love you to explain your stance now.
And just to be clear you are saying that my attempt to start a counterwagon

did indeed

influence your decision to vote me? (although wasn't the sole/main reason you voted me?)

As for my other reasons to suspect you:

I don't like ThAdmiral. I didn't like the way he approached the bjc situation. His vote on him doesn't bother me as much as the fact that he seemed frustrated that bjc would get away with town reads, the only reason to be frustrated about that is if he's scum. IDk why town would express being so annoyed at bjc and the claim. His whole position on the matter doesn't make sense to me. Aside that there's nothing in his posts that make me lean town on him. Oh, also, I'm not thrilled about his reaction to the fake Vig. One second he was voting Z. the other he's kneeling before him praising the gambit. Too much.

^Here. Your approach makes no sense coming from town. You voted bjc for his scum claim, then you said it was a null tell, but you kept expressing frustration towards people town reading him. So if you were not voting him for the scum claim what were you voting him for? And if you really thought the scum claim was a null tell why did you only complain about the town reads and not the scum reads based on it?

Let me break down the bjc situation for you:
1) I voted bjc because I hate stupid scum-claim gambits like that. I did not vote him because I thought he was scum

at that point

. It was more to teach him a lesson etc.
2) People started defending bjc and attacking his attackers, and I found it odd because I didn't see why anyone could think he was town. I felt the scum-claim was a null-tell at best.

I most clearly state my position at the time here:

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

And also here, where I admit that I'm not necessarily voting bjc because I thought he was scum (to a question

you

asked me):

Do you actually suspect bjc? If so, why? The only reason I find for your vote on him is that you don't like that he claimed scum.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm voting him.

My stance on bjc changed somewhat when I took in to account his reaction to the people voting him. I explain my stance here:

bjc - the scum claim itself is null (but annoying). The fact that his scum reads are based solely off people who voted him, and the fact that he has only interacted with people who voted him/questioned him looks bad. leaning-scum.

Does this clear everything up? Given that I already answered a question

asked by you

about my stance on bjc far earlier in the game I hope and trust you will actually remember my response this time.

[ThAdmiral]

A game where she supposedly was cleared?? And you had no reason to believe at that time the cop was lying since he flipped town cop... so you voted Luca based on that game where she was a "cleared" player...

Yeah that doesnt hold up Rach. That is the shittiest excuse ever, not to mention why are you bothering with excusing your vote? Do you feel guilty about it?

VOTE: RachMarie

I actually agree with snork here, this definitely needs to be explained.

I used my 1-shot vig abilities to kill Talah . That is why i did not care about who it was at the end of the day because we were very close to the deadline and i had made up my mind to shoot the survivor if the person lynced out was town .

unvote

No reason not to believe him at this point.
If there are further multikills he's probably an sk and we'll deal with him if and when.

vote: rachmarie

[ThAdmiral]

Uhhhhhhhh. RM had a scumread on Luca in a newbie game. She thought he was playing the same here? She votes him?

I mean as far as reasons to vote someone go, thats weak, but I dont see how its as egregious as you are making it out to be.

He had no cop clear here so I was able to go with my gut it is that simple.

I'm actually with snork here. If luca was playing the same way and was ostensibly town in the other game doesn't it stand to reason that luca would be town in this one as well?

Put yourself in rach's shoes for a second.
You think player X is scummy in one game because of how he plays. A cop claims and says player X is town. "Oh I guess I was wrong about player X" you think.
You are now in a different game with player X. Player X is playing

the same way

as they did in that other game.

Do you:

a) think they are scum and vote them, even though you were wrong about them last time?
or
b) remember that you were wrong about them in that other game and think they could likely be town in this game as well?

But you know what: if you don't agree with this point, fine (even though it makes perfect logical sense). Just look at Rach's iso instead and still tell me that she's town.

You mentioned it twice. What relevance does my join date have here? You have no idea what my experience with mafia is, and it is irrelevant to the point being made.

Bringing it up only serves one purpose: to distract from the inquiry at hand

This is also true.

also wondering if snowstorm is currently bussing thad.

Wait what? Since when have you had me as scum? Last I remember was 456 in which you said:

guts undecided on thad.

In fact I thought you recently implied I was town with:

post 1733-1734 by mastin feel like trying to paint me, damon, and thad badly for the incoming mislynches. Although it could be town suspicious of the wagons. We'll see how mastin plays today.

ya ever since I've been the default push for him I've been like: maybe? and now that he give up on me for a Rach lynch I'm like O_O

So wait: you felt better about me when I was

pushing for your lynch

, rather than when I started pushing for someone else's?

matt, damon

lol

lol
This game feels so serious but that really made me laugh for some reason. so silly.

[ThAdmiral]

Um Thad I moved on, but you bring it back up, the other game JUST ended and he turned out to be SCUM in that game not town. JS

Holy fuck.



What about "at that time" do you not get?
YOU DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS SCUM AT THAT TIME BECAUSE HE HAD A CLAIMED INNOCENT ON HIM.
WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

WHAT HE FLIPPED POST FACT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

Ok, do you understand now?

I don't think you're this stupid so I can only assume you are intentionally missing the point.

[ThAdmiral]

Um nero can you explain what happened from here:

I do NOT have a town read on Rach

As of right now I'm thinking that scum are in

Mister Rogers
Snork
AngryPidgeon
Luca Blight
BipolarChemist
Yates
PeregrineV

RachMarie

Zdenek

I ABSOLUTLY want all of Rach, Blight and Chemist gone before lylo.

to here:

I DO have a town read on Rach regardless of how terrible she is.

?

[ThAdmiral]

Come on dude. I know it's different days but that doesn't answer the question, which is what lead you to change your read on rach.

You don't need to get defensive, I genuinely want to know. I don't have you as a scum read. Although if you continue acting like this I might.

[ThAdmiral]

But why does that make her town?

[ThAdmiral]

Spoiler: End of Day One

VOTE: talah.

I don't care for the meta. I don't think it's a very accurate point when it doesn't add to why he'd play like he has in this game.

Any evidence that talah is scum is present in this game. I think all that's wrong about his play has been pointed out by MR

and lost in between pointless discussion.

Anyone who has doubts should just ISO him. It worked for me.

Here you're free of talah doubts.

Someone else pointed out that all the effort that Talah made in that bru-ha-ha produced no townie contributions from Talah but yet the effort was there. Its just not right.

Exactly, we don't even need to go into particular arguments, talah has the second highest post count and all his effort has been put in overreacting to people and generating mostly pointless arguments. That's not how you play as town.

The more I think about talah the better I feel about lynching him.

Feeling good about the lynch.

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

And yet.

VOTE: talah.

VOTE: Luca.

IDEK

And you can't slate me for lurking when you're arguably the biggest lurker in this game.

Am I? Wow, that sucks. At least I bothered enough to play the game instead of just walking the plank towards a day 1 lynch and suddenly realizing it was a bad idea.

And here you blame Luca for his lynch while saying now that you weren't happy about it.

This is good stuff.

I used my 1-shot vig abilities to kill Talah . That is why i did not care about who it was at the end of the day because we were very close to the deadline and i had made up my mind to shoot the survivor if the person lynced out was town .

unvote

No reason not to believe him at this point.
If there are further multikills he's probably an sk and we'll deal with him if and when.

vote: rachmarie

if you do not believe me then you should not unvote me .
VOTE: The Admiral

Oh, silly aptil.

I have a tendency to think really bad pushes usually make a player town.

Ok, I don't necessarily agree but I see where you are coming from at least.

I'm kinda worried about you and thinkin' maybe I was wrong. I don't really didn't like your 1924 'cause instead of just asking why I had a town read on Rach you attempted to make me look scummy an undermine my derail of the Rach lynch and that doesn't look real townie too me. I also feel like it was super obvious that that I was town reading her today and I can't understand why you'd think my comments YESTERDAY had anything to do with TODAY. This seems deceitful. Like any scumtell, its not 100% but you shadowing Snork on his reasoning for a Rach lynch is iffy.

I don't really care if you don't like my 1924. I was pointing out what looked like a glaring change of heart with little to no explanation. Hell yes I'm trying to undermine your derail of the rach lynch because I think she is scum and I want her lynched.

I completely disagree that it was super obvious that you were reading rach town today. You mentioned her here:

Yea, Rach is clean 'cause AP is

scum

dirty. Snork's reasoning for voting Rach seems legit and AP fighting that is p derpy. Might switch my vote to AP. An AP-PA scum team makes sense too!!!

and here:

I DO have a town read on Rach regardless of how terrible she is.

I don't remember you referring to her

at all

other than that today, although if you did please point it out to me. Why would I assume your stance has changed from one day to the next when you didn't say anything about your stance changing??

[ThAdmiral]

I'll respond to snowstorm in a sec, I have another question for nero:

If I'm interpreting correctly if snork and I hadn't attacked rach you would still be reading her as scum?

[ThAdmiral]

It's not as illogical as it is naive, which is what I called it first. I don't believe you or anyone else could genuinely think we'd vote you solely because of your CW attempt. By doing so you're ignoring all that's been said and done before that and a lot had been said and done up to that that point and by ignoring all that you reduced our votes to a simple and weak reason that also looked hypocrite because of the way you worded your reaction.

Ok I admit I didn't think that was the

only

reason you were voting me. I definitely thought it was a large part of why you were voting me, though, and more importantly why you were voting me at that time.

I mean, you only go after scummy players - players whose play does not fit the common ideals of good town play - like bjc, Aptil (pre-claim) and Rach. They all looked/look scummy, but as far as good reasons that point towards them actually being scum, they're close to none. You seem to be more worried into pursuing the scummy stuff because it's scummy than into understanding whether or not scummy means scum.

Call me old fashioned but I tend to think that if someone is acting scummily they are probably scum.

I generally find scum in two ways: early I try to look for people acting scummily, late I tend to use poe based on my town reads because I am generally more confident in my ability to find town (with good reason - I'm 3-0 so far in this game). I think what you are trying to say is that I don't take motivation in to consideration but this is completely untrue. I always consider motivation. For example I strongly believe that it benefits scum to fly under the radar (aka coast etc.), so I often attribute this behavior to people I think are scum.

So overall, you had a whole lot of nothing on him, which makes your vote and push on him even worse. All that conviction just reads as a big facade for a hollow case. So yeah, I did not have a problem with your attempt at creating an alternative wagon but I didn't like that you chose to do with on Aptil, with those reasons ad with that overly convinced tone.

I think its a bit much to say I had nothing on him. I'll admit I was probably wrong about aptil (there's like a 1% chance he's scum and gambitting but I don't really think so) but I think even he would admit he was flying under the radar a bit due to the fact he had a pr. Anyway the alternatives to my case were Luca (who was town) and Talah (who was town), so my case couldn't have been much worse than the cases on either of them.

As far as my tone of conviction, well I've found you are far more likely to get people to follow a case if you put a confident front on it rather than saying something like "here's my case, I'm not 100% on it, but there you go". It's similar to albert b rampage's theory of trying to lynch scum (link). I don't agree with everything he says in that, but I have to admit I've picked up a few things from it.

Question though: if you thought it was bs at the time, why didn't you call me out about it at the time?

1. That is dumb.
2. As you say, it was a null tell. The same way you found it odd that there were people defending bjc from attackers, those defenders found it odd that someone would attack bjc for what they considered to be a null tell. Makes sense no?

1. Well I guess I was being dumb then.
2. Perhaps I should have been harder on the people attacking bjc for claiming scum, but then again I sort of felt he deserved the negative attention. In any case it seems like we agree he shouldn't have been viewed as town for claiming scum?

I remember your answer. I was just not satisfied with it as it wasn't very clear and either way I didn't like it. You were either voting him because you suspected him, which you hadn't given any good indication of; or you were voting him because of the scum claim which you said was a null tell, which would just be dumb.

Like I said I guess I was being dumb then, in your opinion.

Once again why not mention this at the time if you were not satisfied with my answer back then?

[ThAdmiral]

ThAd, what's your read on me?

You've done enough to make me suspect you are opportunistic scum, but I haven't completely discounted the possibility that you are misguided town.

Something penguin alien said that struck a chord was that you tend to respond to arguments against you with denial, and I don't like that.

[ThAdmiral]

If you think changes of heart with no explanation is scummy then why are you not suspicious of Snork who pretty much did a hard reset for little to no reason? I also (surprisingly!) agree with AP who first brought this up.

snork's change of heart did make me raise an eyebrow but he explains his thoughts pretty clearly in 1790. The fact that he was so sure talah was scum and she flipped town is an adequate explanation of why his reads may have been so shaken up.

Are you like being dense here or are you just scum? In those same posts you quoted today it shows me town reading Rach. Are you really getting fussy about me changing my stance without using the words "I've changed my stance" And yet you also quoted my posts from yesterday wich shows me scum reading her and my posts from today that show me town reading her but you say it wasn't obvious? Come on man, this is starting to look like some fake derp.

No, you're the one that's being intentionally dense.
Obviously I recognize that you CURRENTLY read rach as town. I'm interested in

the process of change

. THAT is what I don't get. I don't get what happened in your brain to move rach from scum who you wanted lynched, to town.

yes but you'll need to explain what that has to do with anything.

I was hoping the inherent ridiculousness of your stance would become apparent, but clearly not.

[ThAdmiral]

Nero - the only reason you are townreading Rach is because I'm scumreading her?

But you don't even know my alignment? Neither of us have flipped... why aren't you basing your reads on what people have done? You saw how well association reads worked yesterday....

I think the CASE on Rach is crap. PERIOD. Though I am cautious about you and Thad, I could see where his pointed question would lead you to believe that.

Clearly there is a lot you and I agree with in regards to rach as we were both scumreading her day 1. It's also clear, however, that we disagreed about what snork pointed out about rach at the start of today (i.e. luca being cleared by cop in another game, although he was actually scum), even though rach later admitted it was only because she was "confused" about the other game - which in many ways shows that snork's (and by extension my own) position was justified.

You've said it was a crap attack multiple times, maybe I just need you to clarify to me exactly what was so crap about it.

I also agree with what snork says here:

Well ok that's fine if you think my reasoning is crap. But I guess I don't understand how that changes your perception of

her

… if you thought she was scum, my consideration of her play wouldn't, or shouldn't change that, since that is my doing and not hers. The same should be true if you thought she was town.

so what do you think of all the others calling her town?

I know this was addressed to snork but I'm personally baffled by it. I'm focusing on you, however, as to my knowledge none of the other people had so clearly identified her as scum yesterday.

[ThAdmiral]

I'll respond to you in a sec but just for the record, what is your read on Snork?

I'm wavering. I didn't like bjc. I liked snork's entrance to the game. I didn't like his attack and vote on me, especially considering he was also keen for a talah lynch and talah had more votes. I've been largely liking him today. Overall I'd say town.

So the chain of events go something like this:

Rach finds Luca scummy in random newbie game>>>>Rach finds Luca scummy in this game>>>>Rach forgets the inno in a newbie game>>>>Rach still wants a dead Luca in this game.>>>Rachs last post in this game>>>she rereads the cop claim.

Are you arguing that she had the foresight to hop on Luca and then "lie" in the newbie game that she forgot the cop claim just so she could defend herself here? I think her play makes perfect sense and I don't think she's lying about forgetting the cop inno.

Well I didn't read that quote by rach in the other game which does lend creedence to her forgetting genuinely. It does seem like you are making a lot of excuses/allowances for her though. Does it not bother you that, in your own words, luca's play in this game compared to the other one was "night and day".

Furthermore do you understand that's not the only point against her? This is from a post I made yesterday:

But I also found

Rach marie

- for coasting, voting nero because apparently he is more active when he's town (a poor reason to vote, also on a person who wasn't around to defend themselves at the time - smacks of a vote park), and trying to sneak on to the luca wagon uncontroversially with a hypocritical reason (going after low-hanging fruit).

Thad shouldn't live much longer, lets put him out of his misery.

vote:Thad

Hey nero, you're case is so bad it should make you town read me!

Nero I understand you thinl the CASE is crap. I don't think you're getting my point, which is that if you are scum reading two people, one of which is scum reading the other, and the next day that person is still scum reading the other, and forms an argument that you think is crap, that shouldn't affect your read on rach. If anything it should strengthen your scumread on me yet that hasnt happened. You all of a sudden town read rach and are pushing thad.

Yeah nero's lost the plot in this game as far as I can tell. I had a pretty decent townread on him yesterday but I have no fucking clue now.

Nero thinks shes town and I don't pretend to know why, but Nero looks pretty town this game so Im not concerned.

How do you take nero's change of heart on rach from day 1 to now, furthermore the reason for his flip?

[ThAdmiral]

VOTE: Way dude

He replaced in for pisskop and based on the off the wagons, and I do think there was probably ONE scum off both town wagons and the others were split tween the two town wagons, I think pisskop was the scum off both wagons.

Pisskop was inactive. I don't think he necessarily chose to be off both wagons.

This is such an inane reason to vote someone.

[ThAdmiral]

Musn't question rach, though, because she "always plays like this" and is "clearly town".
ffs

[ThAdmiral]

This is all she said about that slot previously:

I was reading Pisskop's ISO who replaced him? Because I am not liking what I see so far in that slot.

[ThAdmiral]

then move your vote

move

your

vote!

[ThAdmiral]

He's just a really cool guy, how could you think he's scum?

[ThAdmiral]

In all seriousness I guess the case for town-thad is that no one has been able to really quantify why they think I'm scum, or if they have reasons they are weak/invalid
- Snork was on me day 1 mainly for defending talah, but as it turns out I was right about that one.
- Snowstorm doesn't like me because of my behaviour regarding bjc early day 1 but I feel like I've adequately explained my thought process there. He also accused me of going after scummy people, which I'm happy to admit being guilty of.
- ap didn't like me yesterday because I thought zdenek was town after his fake-vig gambit (although I was right about that one as well)
- gants been flipping back and forth between town and scum-reading me, however when he's been scum reading me it's mainly because I've felt weird/odd/uneasy to him
- aptil is voting me because... I don't know. Possibly because he incorrectly thinks I didn't believe his vig claim?
- you're voting for me, as far as I can tell, because you disagree with my push on rach, even though you agreed with me yesterday that rach was suspect

have I forgotten anyone?

Like, seriously - if you think bad cases being pushed against someone makes them town I should be among your top townreads.

[ThAdmiral]

Am I scum, yates?

[ThAdmiral]

Like, seriously - if you think bad cases being pushed against someone makes them town I should be among your top townreads.

Thad, did you go back and look up the people voting you or did you remember that all off the top of your head?

Bit of column A, bit of column B.

Nero

: Has tunnelled the Mister Rogers/penguin_alien slot. Really difficult for me to get a read on.

null

That might have been true yesterday but he's been on me and snork more today.

Good post otherwise. It reads genuine.

[ThAdmiral]

You're also fueling suspicion with frustration in the case of your suspicion of bjc and Rach. You said you didn't suspect him and that you only voted him because you didn't like his play. As town you should have put that aside and move on, instead you kept expressing your frustration towards him while you were voting him, which makes no sense to do as town because by doing so you were contributing to a general negative opinion on someone you didn't even suspected, which also helped in creating a distraction in him. I don't care how well you explain this, it was not town play.

It was the first few pages of day 1. I didn't have a proper suspicion on anyone! But I was happy to keep my vote on bjc because I didn't like his scum-claim, and I also didn't like his response to people voting him. It was a good a place as any to keep my vote, and far better than most.

You're doing the same thing with Rach. Idk if you actually suspect her or not, but you're expressing frustration towards her town play and towards people town reading her (much like you did with bjc's tow reads). You appear to be frustrated because people are town reading players who, from your POV, do not deserve those town reads, even if they're most likely town. And you're channeling that frustration into your suspicions and votes because that frustration is genuine, which is something a fabricated reason wouldn't be.

Yes I'm frustrated people are town-reading rach because of reasons like nero's "snork and thad's case is bad = rach is town", a bunch of people saying "rach is town coz nero sez", and your:

Snork is still a strong town read. I agree with his reasons to suspect Rach, but I am not comfortable with lynching her. I find the amount of town reads on her pretty odd, I mean, considering how scummy her posts are. So I'm inclined to believe Rach is town.

I mean you agree with snorks case. If I remember correctly you were suspicious of rach's behavior day one as well, but because people are townreading her for no apparent reason you also think she is town.
It fucking boggles the mind.

[ThAdmiral]

So Thad, if a case was being pushed on me for something that I didn't do you'd think I was scummy right?

If I had a fairly strong existing scumread on you it wouldn't automatically make me start reading you as town.

I also find it hard to believe that someone like ThAd, who has a join date from 2006 and who does appear experienced would let himself get blinded by bad play.

Does bad play = scum? Clearly not because if it did we'd all be voting rach.
Anyway I wasn't blinded by shit, you just don't understand how I work. My mind is like a fucking laser.

Ok Nero I can see it,

VOTE: Thad

What a fucking surprise. No reasoning provided of course.

unofficial vote count:

SnowStorm [3 votes] (penguin_alien, Angry Pidgeon, Damon_Gant)
ThAdmiral [3 votes] (SnowStorm, aptil, RachMarie)
TheWayItEnds [3 votes] (Nero Cain, DeasVail, Mastin2)
RachMarie [2 votes] (Snork, ThAdmiral)
4nxi3ty [2 votes] (PeregrineV, Egg)
AngryPidgeon [1 vote] (TheWayItEnds)
mastin2 [1 vote] (Yates)

2 players are not voting: {projectmatt, 4nxi3ty}

[ThAdmiral]

Wow Thad did you completely MISS all the stuffs I posted?

That being said, I am quite willing to move over to another scumspect Way, again to prevent a NL situation.

Way to misrep, dude.

Bullshit. This is "all the stuffs":

Not feeling a strong towny vibe from Thad either this does not feel like his game in other games we have been in together.

I will say that where Thad and Snow are, are great places for a scum vote, not starting the wagon, not being the hammer but somewhere close to the end.

Now go ahead and manufacture some reasons retroactively about what you saw between the following two posts:

need to look at him closer and I just might, he fits in the place where scum might be, though I am still not convinced that Way is town.

Ok Nero I can see it,

VOTE: Thad

I mean if you "saw it", which you clearly did I'm sure, then you'll have no trouble explaining it.

[ThAdmiral]

Thad is sheeping an obv bad case and has been sitting on that wagon despite the fact that said wagon isn't going to go through and he's done jack shit today besides tunnel Rach and defend himself.

How am I sheeping, when I was saying rach was scum yesterday?
I don't even consider what I'm doing defending myself, rather pointing out that there is no case on me.

As far as I can tell the state of the game right now is:
- rach is town coz reasons
- I'm scum coz reasons

This is possibly the stupidest game I've ever been a part of. And if no one is going to listen to sense or reason I can hardly fucking be bothered.

[ThAdmiral]

Is tunnelling scummy nero?

Because you tunnelled the fuck out of rogers yesterday, and today you're tunnelling the fuck out of me.
Yeah I can see you're voting someone else. Why? You're telling people to vote me. You've clearly "pegged" me as scum. Why wouldn't you leave your vote on me. I'd have more votes than twie if you did.

Oh because you're hedging your bets. Got it.

I don't know why you decided to started defending rach, but the best I can come up with is you fucked up. Somewhere along the line you thought you were supposed to have a town read on rach, and when you realised you fucked up you could have either gone back on your word or doubled-down and you doubled-the-fuck-down. Ballsy. I'll give you that.

You scummy fuck, nero. I don't believe I actually sided with you day one. Even today I didn't think you were scum until recently. I think it was wishful thinking. I didn't want to think you were scum. I let my personal opinion of you as a player cloud my judgement. But with every post it became clearer and clearer.

You scummy fuck.

Forget everything else there is no way your flip on rachel makes any sense. You were scum reading her day 1. Rach makes this post:

BTW peeps

a Newbie game just ended and Luca and Joker were the scum and won

Newbie 1476 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38637

We had a Doc and a Cop (Doc died N 1), Cop was a newbie (Burn 209) who did not cop correctly. Instead of waiting til he got a guilty, he claimed cop on D 2 with an inno read on Notty, and lied that he had a cop clear on Luca. 3 person LYLO was Luca, myself, and Jake.

So yeah there was cause to see Luca as a scumspect on D 1 here in this game.

Snork responds with these two posts:

RM are you making the excuse for your vote on Luca that you were reading her based on a game you were in with her at the time where she had not flipped? Really?

A game where she supposedly was cleared?? And you had no reason to believe at that time the cop was lying since he flipped town cop... so you voted Luca based on that game where she was a "cleared" player...

Yeah that doesnt hold up Rach. That is the shittiest excuse ever, not to mention why are you bothering with excusing your vote? Do you feel guilty about it?

VOTE: RachMarie

A perfectly reasonable set of questions considering how rach worded it.

You post 10 times without mentioning that it is a shit case. Which is funny since you are so adamant now that it was so clearly a shit case.

Oh this is gold. I didn't spot this before.
From a long post of yours:

Nero, give me a short thing on why I should vote for PA.

Nero has been talking about Rogers all of Yesterday, did you not care then?

Why DV and not Rach?

To put this in to context both rach and dv had asked nero for content. Basically nero is asking AP here: why do you consider only dv to look bad because of this, and not rachel as well. He is suggesting that rach should look bad as well.

This is after the snork case.

This is when nero was supposed to have been "townreading" rach.

This is bullshit.

Cut ahead...

After aptil claims I unvote him and go to my next highest scumread which is rach, not only because of my existing suspicion but because of the points raised by snork. Nero mentions nothing about me agreeing with snorks case. If the case was so bad why did nero not mention anything until much, much later? Because he retconned a fake reason to think I'm scummy.

cut ahead...

snork and rach argue about how what she's claiming makes no sense.

Then nero say:

Yea, Rach is clean 'cause AP is

scum

dirty. Snork's reasoning for voting Rach seems legit and AP fighting that is p derpy. Might switch my vote to AP. An AP-PA scum team makes sense too!!!

Honestly I still don't know how much of this is sarcasm and how much isn't. But nero clarifies at least one part of it here:

I DO have a town read on Rach regardless of how terrible she is.

He goes on further to explain his read on rach's behaviour:

In a newbie game, Luca trolls it up and plays like his join date, he gets a cop inno.

In this game, Luca trolls it up and plays like his join date, Rach thinks he's scummy and votes him. Snork says Rach is scummy.

I think there are players who are scummy/terrible regardless of alignment so Rach finding Luca scummy makes total sense 'cause his play WAS scummy.
Snorks reasoning isn't that horrible (he's wrong and I could see it making sense from his POV.) Could scum make that up and push it? Yeah but I don't think I'll entertain a Snork lynch today.

I'm just going to repeat one piece of that post:

Snorks reasoning isn't that horrible

(he's wrong and I could see it making sense from his POV.) Could scum make that up and push it? Yeah but I don't think I'll entertain a Snork lynch today.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
The reasoning isn't that horrible. Yet its a clearly shit case. And anyone who might agree with it is scum. Apparently.

Fuck I just found another pearl.
Check out this exchange:

I don't like that we are excusing shitty play just because this player always plays shitty.

If she's town, she has been dead fucking weight.

So was Luca but weren't you screaming and hollering that I was scummy for wanting Luca dead?

Explain how Luca was so much more useful than Rach?

Combine that with nero here:

I think there are two types of players on this site. Those that act scummy regardless of alignment and those that try to look town as scum. This isn't exactly my first rodeo and I've seen players like Luca flip both town and scum. He DOES have a better chance to flip town based on sheer numbers alone but like I said he's not someone I'd care to keep around and scum can still EZly act like this.

vote:Luca

If anyone falls in to that first category rach does. And yet Nero still doesn't want to lynch her. Because he thinks she's town because of a crap case. Which is bullshit.

[ThAdmiral]

die in a fire you scum fuck

vote: nero

I don't know if you are protecting a partner or whiteknighting town, but I now know that YOU are a scummy piece of shit. And what's frustrating is you're somehow getting away with it.

[ThAdmiral]

Keep double posting you scum fuck.

[ThAdmiral]

I'm not moving my vote. I'm not moving it if it kills me.

Because I'd rather be dead than exist in a game where people like you can act like you do and get away with it.

Nothing you say makes any sense. You are lying about fucking EVERYTHING.

And when I flip town anyone who is

paying attention

, anyone who has

any sense

, anyone who

uses any logic whatsoever

will know that you are scum and lynch your scummy ass.

Sadly for this game that probably means no one will vote you.

[ThAdmiral]

Do you think my double posting is a scumtell?

no but right now it's really grinding my gears

[ThAdmiral]

VOTE:

No reason, The Admiral just seem very sophisticated to me.

I like this guy.

So, now we have ThAd being stubbornly useless and people saying he's town because no scum would do that. BS.

Welcome to this game, where the cases are made up, and scumpoints don't matter.

I figure if I can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Yea but I didn't IGNORE the rest of the game while I tunneled on Rogers or you.

Neither did I. You're trying to say that all I did today was vote rach, defend myself

and nothing else

, which is more bullshit, but what should I expect from you.
- I had a back and forth with snowstorm
- I had a back and forth with you
- I gave my opinions on snow, snork, gant

Yes I defended myself. YOU FUCKING ASKED ME TO!

whats your town case on Thad?

The case is wrong but town push crap cases all the time. I've never said that "anyone that agrees with this case is scum"

But you voted me because I agreed with snork.
You specifically said I was scum for "sheeping snork's case", soooooooooooooooooooo...

ok, if I'm alive tomorrow all I'm going to do is tunnel town and defend myself so not gonna comment on anything else.

and then when someone calls me scum I'm going to fake rage and misrep their posts

Yeah, and next game I'm going to claim scum, lurk, and have no internal consistency.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't think me being V/LA for a chunk of the beginning of the game constitutes lurking.

Eh it was more of a conglomeration of you, rach and bjc.

But umm...I'm not happening today so pick someone else.

In fact, tell me about projectmatt, PV, TWIE and Mastin.

and Yates

I'm at work now so I don't have time for lengthy iso's or anything but my general feelings are:
projectmatt - don't have a problem with him, generally understood where he is coming from, he can be town
pv - low quantity, decent points, standard pv. No strong read but I lean town.
twie - I was in two minds over pisskop yesterday and twie hasn't done anything that screams town today - I certainly wouldn't lose sleep if he was lynched. At the same time I think people are overplaying how scummy he's been. I think there are better options.
Mastin - I'm not going to lie, I like the town read on me. I've generally agreed with her reads but I would like more mastin-like levels of activity from her slot.
Yates - probably need to reread but I can't remember many strong stances, if any. A bit wishy-washy, leaning scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ snork: It doesn't matter what I do you will read it as more "proof" that I'm scum.
I make a case against someone - "you're going after people that look scummy/low hanging fruit"
I blow up against nero - "you're faking it"

I bet you if I didn't make any cases I'd be scum for lurking.
I bet you if I was all chill with nero I'd be scum for "sounding too calm" or some bs

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry that was supposed to be

@ snowstorm:

[ThAdmiral]

If you think ThAd is scum, then you'll need to show it. 2296 is ThAd spelling out reasons why he's calling bullshit on Nero's read. Since you disputed none of it, I take it you agree with his take on it?
Hint: "I don't like his tone/emotion/font color" is not the same as examining his argument.

WTF? How about you read my posts. I explain my scum read on ThAd and the reasons behind it in like every other post I make.

Your reasons boil down to: "he's scum because I think he's scum and I don't agree with him"

[ThAdmiral]

A lot happened since I last checked in. Rm claim clears her, and explains neros flip. I was right, at least, that it made no sense.

Unvote

Once again I'm not all that keen on either wagon. Lean towards twie, it feels like the mastin case is heavily meta related which I don't really like.

Vote: twie

[ThAdmiral]

Well the easy solution is to have six protect snork tonight. If snork dies six is confscum.

Unless scum have a roleblocker...

Maybe the best plan is for both rach and six to flip a coin on whether to protect snork or not, then the scum are forced to choose whether to shoot snork and potentially waste their shot, or shoot someone else. I dunno, just spitballing.

In any case.

vote: ap

[ThAdmiral]

Oh god, Yates could tell you alllll about what happens when you argue about what to do with confirmed SKs:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=23662

Thad was in that too actually. As was PV.

Yeah and I'm still pissed at Tammy for killing me as well. Fuck Tammy.

[ThAdmiral]

Busy at the moment but will be able to get on later and post some analysis. Essentially this has come down to poe and I doubt we can lose this even if I am lynched along the way (which I suspect will happen)

[ThAdmiral]

basically conf town:
Snork
TheWayItEnds

probably town vig:
SiX

remainder:
Damon_Gant
DeasVail
penguin_alien
PeregrineV
projectmatt
SnowStorm
Egg

Of these:
egg, penguin_alien, peregrineV were on the mastin wagon. Egg gets bonus points for being on early and trying to push it through as opposed to jumping on late. Pv's vote was interesting as he didn't wait for mastin to claim. Not sure whether that is more likely from town or scum.
snowstorm is likely not aligned with mafia as ap and mastin were voting him and pushing pretty hard day 2.

Will look in to damon, deas, and projectmatt, and also check out peregrine.

[ThAdmiral]

Still here no replacement needed! Just had a bit of a pile-up of work and social stuff recently.

I know I promised some iso's and more analysis. They are coming.

[ThAdmiral]

Ok so SiX is going to bodyguard me, ffery is going to shoot someone not ThAd within {SnowStorm, DG}, and I'm going to investigate ThAd.

Plan sounds good to me, although I'd say the shot should be out of DG and PA instead of snowstorm. Both AP and Mastin pushed pretty hard for a snowstorm lynch.

I think its weird that town have two vigs, but I don't see any reason why fferylt would claim the kill as scum. As scum all it would have achieved is to put unwanted attention on her and made it so town decided her kill rather than shooting who she wanted.

As someone else said scum surely don't have an rb as they would have used it on snork last night, so either way we should get a result tonight.

Current clear and reads list is:

Cleared:
Snork
TheWayItEnds
DeasVail

Vigs:
SiX
fferyllt

town reads:
Egg
SnowStorm

remaining:
PeregrineV
Damon_Gant
penguin_alien

don't see a way we can lose it from here if we just keep working via process of elimination.

[ThAdmiral]

Assuming 5 scum.

11 players, 9 town, 2 scum

If we mislynch - 10 players, 8 town, 2 scum (5 clears)
if fferylt hits town - 9 players, 7 town, 2 scum
mafia kill one of the clears - 8 players, 6 town, 2 scum (4 clears)

snork will have another result, making 5 clears, so even in a worse case scenario we go in to tomorrow with 6t:2s of which 5 are clears.

yeah there's no way we lose from here

[ThAdmiral]

You're assuming scum don't have a doc. You're assuming both "town" killers are town.

You're probably making other assumptions, too.

I don't have a full grip on the gamestate yet but this complacency worries me.

Our information is growing, while the scum numbers are dwindling. Unless there's somehow 6 scum, which I really doubt, we have at least two mislynches left plus all the night results.

I just don't see how we can lose it from here.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't really know what else there is to say. I'm happy to lynch one of damon, pere or penguin alien, preferably in that order.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't really know what else there is to say. I'm happy to lynch one of damon, pere or penguin alien, preferably in that order.

Why that order?

Damon has been flip-floppy about quite a few things, and has often had me as scum for not much reason other than that I "seem" scummy.
Penguin I have had a decent town read on since he was rogers, and pere is just null so they are in that order by default.

[ThAdmiral]

Yeah it looks like chips on the table time.

I'll go ahead and

vote: damon gant

as well

[ThAdmiral]

Worst balance I've ever seen. And that's saying something, since I've seen my own modded games.

Even with the best possible luck scum were fucked in this game.

[ThAdmiral]

Firstly scum needed one member who didn't give a positive to the gunsmith.

Secondly the gunsmith should have technically got a positive off a "cop" role, like a gunsmith role is supposed to.

Thirdly the friendly neighbour ability is just unnecessary.

Fourthly if you are going to give this much power to town give more than just a ascetic role to scum that would have looked suspect even if it had worked. Plus it didn't even work if I had to shoot someone so when I was by myself it was just one rung above completely useless.

Lastly yes even with all that we were unlucky in that all the roles were on people that at points looked like possible lynch targets, and other lynch targets were cleared by the gunsmith.

Fact is the gunsmith was a cop in this game with a

very

slight chance to make it uncomfortable for one of the vig roles who in turn had a decent chance of being believed by town anyway if they claimed.

This game proves, yet again, that if you put a cop in a game and don't either give the scum a lot of power to fight it, or make it heavily reduced (for example one shot would have gotten closer to balanced) it makes it almost impossible for the scum to win unless they somehow luckily kill it day 1 or 2.

In this set up scum should have either had 5, had some decent prs, or at very least there should have been an sk to add more of a wild card element.

[ThAdmiral]

Like I hate to sound like a bitter sore loser after a game but I do feel we were up against it, and I don't know why yates was modkilled either.

Aside from that I do thank the mod for running the game. Was always active with votecounts and did a great job getting replacements to keep the game ticking over.

[ThAdmiral]

If this game was played 10 times town would win 7-8 of them. Guarantee it.

Vig hit only town in this game. Could you imagine what would have gone down if they actually hit scum?
As I said only way scum wins is by luckily killing the gunsmith before they claim, else there is way too many clears for the scum to have to kill through (or just straight up scum results). Plus town has two ways to protect the gunsmith after he claims anyway.

The one other slightly possible chance for scum to win is if gunsmith targets one of the vigs at night and town doesn't believe the claim and lynches. Even then it probably just evens it up a little bit.

4 scum 16 town everyone vanilla is very close to balanced, and in this town gains 4 very relevant prs including one powerful one, and scum get one fairly shitty pr. At very least scum needed a rb to deal with the gunsmith. There was no way for us to play around it.

[ThAdmiral]

Town can win on night 2 in this game! Extremely unlikely but the possibility exists.

Best case scenario for scum, including vigs only hitting town, gunsmith being shot night one, friendly neighbour being killed as well etc. is 5 mislynches in a row.

[ThAdmiral]

Well I have even more reason to feel aggrieved then.

[ThAdmiral]

Well I have even more reason to feel aggrieved then.

Or maybe not, when you don't have all the information on what happened. You're making assumptions because you don't have the complete information and feel slighted because the result punished your team, but that's part of what a modkill involves, and it was not a decision that was taken lightly. We were not out to punish

you

and I was sorry that you had to deal with the rest of the game by yourself, but you have no reason to feel aggrieved toward Plessiez or anyone but Yates.

The concept of scum having to work to win a game is not and should not be new. The concept of scum being able to lose even if they play a perfect game should not be new.
The balance was pretty decent and I would have liked to play in this game if it had been an option.

Oh just let me have my bitch, please.



...seriously though the game wasn't balanced

[ThAdmiral]

but ultimately town played well and that's why we won.

I certainly think some town played really well, yourself included. I also think there were other town that were gifted with roles/results that gave them almost 100% clears despite their play. Not naming names or anything...

[ThAdmiral]

I suggested a Yates force replace 'cause a modkill p much fucked the scumteam over but Yates couldn't talk about his slip

If a slot is compromised, it's compromised regardless of who holds it.

Yates slipped about a scum QuickTopic in his picture, yes. For the sake of the integrity of other games, we were considering a modkill in the game that involved that QuickTopic (this game) and that game alone. Yates asked me to delete the image, I denied him as other people had already seen it, it was public information, and we were investigating the issue; Yates followed this up by messaging Plessiez to ask him to delete the image, and did so while attempting to deceive Plessiez about his motivations.

As was mentioned elsewhere, we expect honesty from players and moderators when dealing with the site staff and each other, and attempting to remove evidence of a game event through deceitful methods and going behind a list moderator's back are not acceptable behaviors.

If you're going to punish him, punish him. But if you aren't site banning him is there any point in ruining his reputation?

Just like it isn't right for others to speculate about the happenings without knowing the full story I think its also unfair to slander someone who isn't here to defend themselves.

[ThAdmiral]

This is turning in to mafiascum gossip girl.

[ThAdmiral]

scum qt: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/RtvxeTnnNwY

If the game had been drawn out, with conflicting claims and the compulsive vig shoot town, the ascetic being investigated. I think it would have been very different. With the game going so fast, it meant that town had time to trust the claims.

Yeah I think in general though town tends to believe claims until they are proven to be wrong. As you'll see the idea was for our players to claim joat hybrids (like rach and six) but that backfired when a) mastin was lynched without the opportunity to claim, and b) ap did claim a joat hybrid but was proven false by the odd gunsmith ability wording.

Also if I had been investigated it would have looked like snork was blocked (i.e. his ability failed), not that I would have come up innocent. It really wouldn't have helped us much at all, and in fact would have made me look more suspect anyway.

[ThAdmiral]

If you're coming from the basis that 4 scum and 16 town mountainous is balanced, sure this will look townsided. The thing is, you're wrong that is not even fucking close to balanced. 2:11 mountainous is theoretically scum sided and scum sided in practise. 1 strong PR + 3 weak ones was pretty much needed.

Theoretical balance ignores so much about what makes mafia "mafia" (i.e. the whole bit about players using logic and experience to root out scum) that I've found it best to only use as an extremely rough guide. In reality 9:2 is closer to being an even game than 11:2 because, really, if town mislynch 4 times in a row in a game this size they deserve to lose.

As I couldn't find probabilities for a 16:4 mountainous anywhere I calculated it myself. With random lynching, town win such a game 17.8% of the time. Indeed, to make a 4 scum mountainous theoretically town-sided, you need a staggering 71 town players. Of course we can talk about scumhunting and whatever, but scumhunting's effect is a long, long, long way from balancing a 17.8% win rate. Calling 16:4 mountainous even close to balanced is ludicrous. Power roles are clearly needed here.

See above.
I really don't think you are giving enough credit to town players. And simply put games shouldn't be 50/50 based on theoretical random chance. Town will almost always lynch above random levels. Admittedly 17% is quite low, but I think "actually" balanced games generally would be "theoretically" balanced at about 30% town/70% scum.

I mean surely you can see that in a real life, with real players, 4:71 would be absurd.

This will never happen but I'd love to see 16-4 mountainous and the setup for this game run 100 or 1000 times each. I'd bet on the mountainous game being more balanced over the long run.

[ThAdmiral]

2) Day 1 lynch is either random or worse than random

Well you're wrong.

In any case we're somewhat moving away from the initial issue which is: do you think this game was balanced?