Tales of You (Endgame)

[CarbonFiber]

Was that mastin or SSK btw

What the fuck

Okay mastinssk can be town.

ONE DOWN FIFTEEN TO GO

What from post 20 made you think MastinSSK is town? I personally don't see it.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

We questioned NotScience's MastinSSK townread because nothing that SSK had posted until then was unfakeable. I initially read NotScience as town but FT said that he could be scum but that he was drunk and to not take him seriously last night. So, we are still trying to figure that one out. On the other hand, I like most of NotScience's other posts and I thought that his determination to form a townbloc with people he liked felt pro-active and his declarations about his obvtowniness felt genuine. I'd still like a serious answer to the early MastinSSK townread before we nail down a read there. I can think of a few reasons why he might have a townread there but I'd like to hear his thought process.

I question why ffery and Beli are being read as town. I expected ffery to be more enthusiastic about playing with this playerlist and I don't see it yet. But I should be able to get a proper read later on. Also, could you point out which heads posted what so far?

Nacho's trolling feels like the Too Many Heads game and I want to townread him for it but I am not completely sure. Nachotown = game won.

It is obvious who LordBusiness is but I won't reveal their alt if they are not willing. The content he provided seems off with regard to the gamestate. Calling Titan's posts "emotional blackmail" feels like a stretch but tonally he comes across as direct and forceful which makes me think he could be town.

Cephrir is too involved and engaged with the game which makes me think he might be scum because from what I recall of Empire's game, Cephrir's towngame felt more laid back whereas here, it feels like he is trying to stay on top of things.

I am uncertain about Titan and MastinSSK. I never failed to easily read Tammy as town when she is town although I don't know if I'd be able to catch her as scum but if she is town, the game is in the bag as long as she is not killed N1 so that's another slot I am

hoping

is town. I like that MastinSSK picked up Cephrir's posts as scummy and I agree.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

snip

~ F-16

So while you describe all of your points in detail, you never really say anything solid. Mind elaborating on who you think are scum at the moment?

I didn't say anything solid because I don't have any solid reads. Most players are of a caliber that nothing they did so far is unfakable as scum. Cephrir could be scum.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

snip

~ F-16

So while you describe all of your points in detail, you never really say anything solid. Mind elaborating on who you think are scum at the moment?

I didn't say anything solid because I don't have any solid reads. Most players are of a caliber that nothing they did so far is unfakable as scum. Cephrir could be scum.

~ F-16

Why?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Cephrir, I was referring to the tone of your posts in NY169. There were times when you sat back and it felt like you weren't really on top of things. You made giant catch up posts, and easily read people as town or scum. There were a few posts where you hard-pushed your scumreads like StuffedCrust and Arthur but for the most part, your posts were meticulous or thorough. Here, the way you inserted yourself into the argument between Titan and MastinSSK felt like you were putting in extra effort to make your presence felt and your opinions known in a much stronger way than the effortless way you did it in NY169.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@Tammy, I read your ISO more closely. I actually think you are pretty town now. So, the reason I didn't initially have a strong townread was that your post 53 felt a little aggressive because I assume Nacho would probably town himself up regardless but I do like the follow up in 74 asking ffery what she thought of Bork. I like the suspicion of me as well since you never read me wrong before, I assumed scum-you would townread me to keep it consistent. Post 126 looked really town as well and 129 mirrored my thoughts and the rest of your ISO feels town as well. My mistake.

What do you think of NotScience's posts so far?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I am assuming the above is Arthur?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

it's tammy

That doesn't feel good.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Guh. Sorry, SSK.
VOTE: Carbon Fiber.

Lol. We are not actually going to get lynched in this game and there are eighteen days left and Tammy will see me as obviously town as she's never yet been wrong. So you might as well find a better vote.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

question why ffery and Beli are being read as town. I expected ffery to be more enthusiastic about playing with this playerlist and I don't see it yet. But I should be able to get a proper read later on. Also, could you point out which heads posted what so far?

I'm plenty enthusiastic about this game. However I'm hellaciously time constrained this month and it's impacting the amount of time I spend in all my games everywhere. I'll be going home in a little over a week and my play should start to be more "normal" after that.

What do you think about all the suspicion you guys have generated?

I guess part of it is justified. There are just some times when I know I entered the game awkwardly and draw suspicion because of that. It happens more often in games that I start in as opposed to replace into because I tend to replace in with a bang and keep it up for the rest of the game. That's partly why I wanted to experiment with not being present at the beginning of the game and coming up post RVS with analysis about the game. Titan's suspicion felt town as I explained. Unsure about Mastin and Rancid. Was it Beli or you that agreed with Rancid about our question to NotScience being off?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Are you and mastin writing from the same play book? There's just no way that can be read as aggressive. I don't see how you thought that. I think I prefer the emotional blackmail accusation because that at least gets to how I felt when I wrote that post. Why would you think that nacho would town himself up right away and why were you just writing nacho off as town before either head had posted? You know that I'm pretty decent at reading nacho, though I read him wrong for a bit recently when I should have recognized he was town. I just don't see how people who know me and know how I approach mafia don't see that as a plea for people I need to have sorted. What I find as somewhat amusing is the people I directed that post to, the people who it was written for, didn't have a problem with it but other people are like ohyoudint! And nacho who can read me better than almost anyone else on this site didn't see anything wrong with it and nacho would love to catch me and lynch me if I were scum, so I'm just kinda thrown here.

I just don't know what to think of you now. I expected you to pose some questions to me and try to figure out my alignment, not read my iso and go "my bad". It feels like appeasement. I might just need to take a step back though, I feel like I've already been kicked off balance and it feels like it was done on purpose again.

I have an early townread on notscience. I liked a whole lot that he wanted to sort me early. His aggressiveness and stance that he's obvtown fits his town games that I'm aware of. Unless he's changed his scum meta it's not so aggressive and involved. I also liked Brian skies post.

I am not writing Nacho off as town. I am hoping he is town. I wasn't trying to appease you, I read your ISO so I could hone in on why I didn't immediately townread you but upon reading it, I changed my mind. I wasn't trying to purposefully "kick you off balance," I was hoping I would read the thread and see that you were obviously town but it took more effort and scanning your ISO more closely to figure that out than it did in previous games. I think I'd be able to get a read on you more easily and more productively by working with you than questioning you.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Oh, and I was also expecting you to say something like you would be able to read my slot as soon as I posted in response to people discussing FT's initial post but you didn't say anything which made me wonder why.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I wasn't sure what I thought about it and wanted to see how you came in just how you did. I learned from attack on Titan that I want to read you as town and it can color my early reads. I wanted to see how you would interact with me. Also, my main focus early game was seeing if I could get a read on nachobork. I think they're probably town, so after that was me just settling in and dealing with what was here.

Okay, that's fine. I think they could be town but I'm pretty confident I'll be able to tell if Nacho is town as well sooner or later. What do you think of LordBusiness? While I didn't agree with any of his content, he came across tonally as town although it was a bit aggressive.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Hi Tammy!

You seemed to have sneezed or something at the end of giving your read on me- you added something after town.

I don't get where mastin's coming from at all regarding you being scum.

@F-16, While yes the interactions are

technically

fakeable, they felt genuine to me. I just felt like the conversation with me early came from a natural place.

Okay, I can see why you would think they are town. I am pretty sure their first post was prepared/null but the interaction came across as natural. I am not convinced that they are necessarily town though but the more Mastin posts, I should be able to get a read on him.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Explain your townlean on ffery and beli.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

You usually interact with her much more before you nail down a read as evidenced by We're on a Boat and OCRemix. How did this read come by so quickly without much interaction?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - What are your thoughts on Mastin?

Nothing in SSK's posts pinged for me and on a re-read I felt that he was natural and relaxed in his interactions with NotScience and his insistence on voting RBD didn't come across as fake.

I don't like Mastin's choice of targets who he calls scum and town in Post 141. He townreads RBD who are persuasive players. He scumreads Cephrir (which I guess I can relate to), he leans scum on Clyton who is a newish player and potentially someone that can be lynched. He scumreads us. FT doesn't play on mafiascum a lot and I haven't played as many games with this playerlist as some others have so he could be thinking of us as a potential mislynch down the road. Cupcake Panda (Katsuki) seems to not know a lot of people in this playerlist and is also a scumread. But, Mastin and Katsuki hydra'd together so that one is probably a joke. If NotScience is town, he has already started buddying with him. The entire post came across as calculated. I don't like the not trusting Nacho part in Post 146 and the vague townread on Mac while not committing to a position could be Mastin planning a late game mislynch on Mac the way he did in Anything Goes. He follows up with in Post 162 with an obvtown read on Nacho, GIF, and Orc (although the latter two hadn't posted but if they are town, they are not going to be mislynches since they know the playerlist very well). He feels the towniness in ffery and Beli which is again odd and nothing that ffery has posted is unfakable for her as scum. But ffery and Beli are not going to be mislynched in this playerlist so he needs to get on their side. The only thing that sticks out of this pattern of townreading the stronger players is his scumread on you. He mentioned that as scum, he sheeps you and Nacho and keeps on your good sides so the attack on you could be an effort to get Nacho to townread him. The push on us makes sense if you are misreading us because you misreading us would make our slot a viable mislynch. I also don't like his push on me for not having solid reads. It was page 7 in a large game so implying that it was scummy is a bit of a stretch.

Although everything I pointed out is possible for him to do as town, I think it is less likely than him manufacturing reads because of who he is reading as town and who he is reading as scum and the amount of information with which he developed those reads seems unlikely to be natural.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

You usually interact with her much more before you nail down a read as evidenced by We're on a Boat and OCRemix. How did this read come by so quickly without much interaction?
~ F-16

Do you think he's wrong?

I am not sure. I want to hear his thought process. Do you think you did anything in this game that you would be unable to fake if you were scum?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@ Mastin, We played in Extra-terrestrial mafia and your posts sounded a lot different and involved. Why the change in demeanor when interacting with me?

Hmm…Mastin said she sheeps me when scum? That…doesn't make sense. In Good v. Evil, she called me confirmed scum when she was scum and she pushed me and tried to get me lynched a good portion of the game, even made up this dream he had where I the queen bee had everyone doing my bidding and it was her job to save everyone from my scum self, or some shit like that. It wasn't until endgame that he made a weird maneuver and started push Nacho as confirmed scum that Nacho realized she was wrong about Mastin and we lynched him for the game. The other time when Mastin was scum was when he took over your slot in Attack on Titan, and he certainly didn't sheep me; he mostly just tried to frustrate the hell out of me when I correctly scum read him and she was telling me I needed to do better blah blah blah. The other times I've seen him as scum, we were partners.

That's why this attack makes no sense to come from town!Mastin. It doesn't look like either of them are trying to figure me out. They've decided they were going to push me as scum and are framing everything I've said to fit some scum narrative that makes no sense whatsoever. There's like literally no way I'm scum here, so it's just baffling. It makes a hell of a lot more sense that she watched how frustrated the entire scum team coming after me in Vesperia made me and that it made them look town. They're trying to look busy, they're not trying to find scum.

Also also I really really don't like his pointing out that he's not going to trust Nacho's read on me. He knows Nacho will town read me, and he knows that if Nacho is town he's not going to just let a lynch go through on me when I'm obviously town, so his predetermining that he's going to ignore it is awful.

I think Mastin realizes that

What do you make of his back-off based on being a sucker for your later "logical" posts? I've skimmed Good vs Evil as well so I am not sure which games he was referring to as sheeping you in post 197. And I agree that going after you could be a scum strategy after spectating on Tales of Vesperia. It would have to temporary though to snag a few townreads because an actual mislynch would be impossible.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, in your breakdown of reads, you have Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum. You seem to be saying now that the debate between Mastin and Titan could involve either of them being scum. Why? Do you see merits to both sides of the arguments? Also, can you link to a couple of town and scum games that you've played offsite.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

eeennnnnggggghhhhh

I'll get back to you on this. I'm going to go watch some Dr. Who and go to sleep. I need to step back from this game. I feel like you're manipulating me now and maybe everything I was thinking was wrong and that might not even be fair because you might not but you're taking my side on this Mastin thing when you came in not exactly being sure about me until I pushed you and it's freaking me the fuck out right now. I feel completely off balance and I need a break.

It took slightly longer for me to read you as town this game than it usually does but I am reading you as obvtown now and agree with your points. I guess my entrance was bad considering your scumread on me but I was looking forward to this game for quite a while and I intend to massively step it up as soon as I can develop some solid reads. I am not manipulating you, probably wouldn't even try it as scum. And it was your push on me that convinced me that you were town.
~F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, in your breakdown of reads, you have Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum. You seem to be saying now that the debate between Mastin and Titan could involve either of them being scum. Why? Do you see merits to both sides of the arguments? Also, can you link to a couple of town and scum games that you've played offsite.
~ F-16

I only put Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum for the sake of a reads list; it really has no significance to what I really think except which stance I'm learning towards to. I see merits to both sides of the argument. I believe that when I think from either person's perspectives, I can easily be Town or Scum in both scenarios.

Also, the site I played cannot be viewed by outsiders unless you register an account. I can link you anyways, and you do the searching after making an account there. I will link you to a particular Death Note Mafia game where I was a SK with a bunch of other hidden abilities attributed to it. I believe that however unrefined my playstyle/meta was there, it still holds true to today.

If you want to question my playstyle/meta, then do so in a direct manner. I may have said that I wouldn't openly explain my meta bluntly, but it doesn't mean you can ask to fish out some information about myself from me.

My initial impression from your reads list was that it was meticulous and detailed and much more likely to come from town. The reason I wanted your games was to see how much you are capable of faking it as scum and if there were any patterns to your town and scum play. I might make an account there if it becomes necessary later on. What I wanted to see was games where you were town and mafia in. SK is usually different and I discount SK play for meta.

Also, you say I made "valid points" but without taking action. I agree that I usually wait for reads to solidify and hold off on voting a lot of the time until I am fairly certain about the direction I want to go. You say that your meta has similarities to that. What similarities?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, made the account. Can you give me a link to a town and scum game.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Titan, The Fox, and LordBusiness are probably town. I agree completely with Titan's analysis on Mastin. I was thinking literally the same things. Pretty sure F-16 agrees as well. Mastin showing way too much conviction for the positions he's taking - way over-the-top - which makes me think there is no thought process behind the positions.

Vote: MastinSSK

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I'll agree with you that the level of play there is vastly different from here and the notion that your town and scum play are similar at least on a surface level and there doesn't seem to be a lot of analysis at all.

FT and I don't feel that Titan's and Mastin's argument is one where both parties made valid points or one where it is difficult to get reads on both players such that we would need to wait for investigations.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Re-evalauating, The Fox and The Hound look really town. FT and I discussed this read and we are in agreement that Titan, LordBusiness, and The Fox and The Hound are town.

In ISO, everything that Cephrir said resonated with me and makes sense with what I was thinking at the time. My only concern was that I wondered if it is too perfect. The obvtowning of NotScience, the suspicion of Mastin, the townread on Titan, the paranoia on ffery, it feels like a product finished to perfection with all the touch and finesse of an expert. BUT, I'll shut out that paranoia and go with them as towntells and I am deferring to FT a little because I always scumread Cephrir regardless of affiliation in games I am in or spectating. Titan, what do you think of Cephrir so far?

But barring anything major coming up, as NotScience would say, 3 down (Titan, LB, Fox), 13 more to go.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Don't worry about it, you'll come around. Or did you want to discuss what was wierd?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Hold the phone

you aren't allowed to use my words and then not include me in the townbloc

You are on the borderline between townbloc and null for me. You gave two quick townreads so far. I flat-out disagree with your MastinSSK one since he is our strongest scumread at the moment. I am wondering how you were able to sort ffery so quickly.
~ F-16

Pedit: That's still really vague and I am just not seeing what you are seeing.

[CarbonFiber]

CarbonFiber, I just found your reversal to be kind of sudden- but IIRC you did the same thing in 169, didn't you?
So to answer Tod's implicit question, I /think/ so. Especially because of a particular reason for reading someone that was brought up in private and has pretty much never occurred to me before. I think I'm beginning to see the appeal of hydras as vehicles for learning to scumhunt.

Also, my second quote stripe in 416 is not intended to say anything about RG specifically.

I change my mind a lot although I don't remember anything specific from 169. My read here was more of FT going "The Fox and the Hound are so town" and asking me why I am not seeing it, then I re-read the thread again and realize that your thoughts processes match mine very closely. Upon the first read, I was focussing more on your tone and less on the content.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I think

Mac

is town from a re-read of the thread. I like his initial engagement with the game and the way he meta-dived FourTrouble in Post 67 while discussing the read with zMuffinman. I like his picking up on how FT is more aggressive as scum. I initially wondered why he didn't just wait for FT to make more posts but I can see the impatience from a town POV as well. Looking through how Mac discusses reads as scum, in Post 25 of Mini 1525, the first Tales game, he says thanks and puts it aside saying he will check the meta later. I also liked the actual difference he picked up regarding FT's opening tone. I usually read FT based on his openings so I think Mac is going about it in a productive way. ffery, do you agree with my assessment that Mac is playing more to his town meta. You played with him in the first Tales game and in AA:MFA when he was scum and town respectively.

My townread on

RedGyarados

is solidified after looking through his towngames to see that early and easy townreads are not features of his towngame and are at worst null. The rest of his play feels very transparently town.

Town (Strong -> Weak)

: Titan, Red Gyarados, Lord Business, The Fox and the Hound, Mac

Spoiler:

TOWN:
1 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
2 Lord Business
3 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
5 Mac

EVERYONE ELSE:
6 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
7 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
8 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK)
9 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
10 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
11 GuyInFreezer
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
13 Cupcake Panda
14 PeregrineV
15 Clyton
16 orcinus_theoriginal

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

EDIT:
*early and easy townreads ARE present in NotScience's towngame so it is not something to be concerned about.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@ ffery, okay.

@ Muffin, why?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Ugh, pedit, I meant at Nati.

[CarbonFiber]

What didn't you like about it?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also Tammy, I am on page 5 of my tenth? re-read and obsessively re-reading is a massive, massive towntell for me and I hope you of everyone here will notice that and see how fucking town I am so I can work with you and make this the best damn game I've ever played in my two years of playing mafia.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I have been assessing the game as a whole and trying to get reads on as many players as I can. I've got five solid townreads and narrowed down scum to four of the remaining eleven. I need Tammy to read me as town so I can effectively consolidate townreads and POE the scum. It is somewhat difficult to do that when your strongest townreads think that you are scum. Also, if you look at the Pick Your Poison game we played, working with Tammy is an easy and effective way to wreck scumteams, and she is easy to work with and scumhunt with one of the few players besides Nacho who I expect to read me correctly even while others struggle to read me. Z-Mafia is another example although I'll say that game was won mostly due to Nacho.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I have been doing that even while I haven't developed a townread on you, for instance asking what you thought of Mac.

I am curious though what did you find notable in NY169 in particular that would make it a priority for me? I'd probably want to compare notes even without considering NY169.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What specifically struck you as lacking depth?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

I'm more interested in the process than in the results at the moment.

The process of how I read you as opposed to whether I read you as town or scum? My priorities are different. I care about being right more than meeting expectations of how you would expect me to sort you. I'll be as transparent as I can to help you mutually sort me but I am not going to try and emulate previous games.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What specifically struck you as lacking depth?

~ F-16

follow-up. For instance your question about Mac. You usually follow-up and probe for more info when you get a short answer to a question.

Most of the time I probed for info in NY169, your general reaction was annoyance and reluctance and providing info. I remember you made a reads list and I asked you for explanations of every read on your list (even reads like Tammy who was obviously town). Upon re-reading the game and learning what worked and what didn't, I didn't feel like probing for info on every read is going to be a productive use of our time. I am confident in my read on Mac and you have in your townpile as well. That's enough for me for now. I'll probe for info on more contentious reads.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Your process of getting reads in general, not just a read of me. How players form their reads is more alignment-revealing than the reads themselves usually.

I agree. I think I've been fairly transparent about my reasoning for my reads. Are there reads you want me to explain?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

It revealed to me that Mac was town. I stopped at page 5 and Mac's ISO before I stopped for a while. I've since then been interacting with you.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm still concerned about notscience. Even sober, I still can't figure out what's town about post 20. I'm assuming it was post 20 that made him think that. I'll look more into his meta when I have a chance. I've only ever seen him as scum so far, and his play is consistent with his scum meta for the most part. He also never answered my question about what made him think it was town. I feel like it's little things like that which suggest it was contrived.

Orci's 378 is town, although not enough content there for a solid read.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

With Mac, I thought his meta on me was pretty fvcking town (what's the scum motivation for pointing out a major difference between my play as scum and my play here?).

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

This is my first game with Mac. I liked his Post 64 in response to zMuffin saying that he didn't like FT's post. He then follows up on it 20 minutes later with a quick meta-dive of a game where FT was scum. I read that game myself and noted FT's approach and saw that he was unreasonably aggressive with Rach which felt contrived to me. I've played 30+ games with FT offsite and we can read each other well. We both make it our top priority to sort each other out as soon as we enter the game. One of the things I use to read FT is to see how contrived his opening sounds. Mac picked up on

exactly

the sort of thing that would feel off to me from scum-FT so his meta was dead-on. Mac also mentioned that FT asks a lot of questions as town which is also very true.

I also think the fact that he chose to pro-actively meta FT is a minor towntell although that is a much weaker reason than the fact that his meta was surprisingly accurate.

I wanted to see if he routinely fakes meta-dives as scum just to be certain and his approach to your Fuzzylogic meta-dive in Tales of the Abyss was vastly different. He initially jumped onto Fuzzy, thanked you for providing the meta and left the thread. That makes me think he isn't as engaged as scum as he was here. Also, when scum fake meta-dives, they usually do it with pre-formed conclusion and it is rare that a player can nail down accurate points to fit with their conclusions.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

something about the chronology is bugging me. I'll go back over it in the morning.

I made my analysis post at around 3:15 while five pages in and stopped so I could study but I kept this page open to see if any new comments pop up before I started interacting with you.

I like that you picked up on this though. I have a probably unusual habit of keeping mafiascum.net open in a different tab while I work and checking in from time to time for new posts while re-reading the game using different tabs and that would be a very specific thing to point out.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm thinking Clyton is town, too.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

Elemental's post rubs me the wrong way. They're basically calling F-16 scum because his opinions change as he reads and re-reads the game. Very superficial analysis, considering that F-16's changes in opinion are responses to developments in the game, to re-reading, and have been explained. The non-committal suspicion on MastinSSK is also terrible, especially when combined with the analysis on us. I get the feeling that MastinSSK + Elemental are partners from this alone.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

Point is, Elemental's basically doing one of those classic scum-tells -- calling Mastin + us scummy, but preparing to vote for us, not Mastin. Assuming Mastin is scum, Elemental is pretty much guaranteed scum.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

The thing where you attack both your partner and the guy attacking your partner, but vote for the guy attacking your partner. Pretty sure it's a classic scum-tell, though it doesn't really matter. I'm not a huge believer in objective scum-tells. What I'm trying to say is that Elemental is scummy, and he's scummy cause his post was massive shit.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

Fox, what do you think of Breakfast? The whole bit where he says F-16's posts lack depth doesn't make sense. Thoughts?

[CarbonFiber]

It doesn't make sense because F-16's posts are some of the most in-depth analyses of behavior so far. Each of his town-reads was explained pretty damn thoroughly. You agree it was a poor word choice, right? I get having trouble putting thoughts into words. But why use the word "depth"? How does that relate to the explanation and follow-up thing? You seem to think the entire sequence was town, right? Help me understand Breakfast's thought process (and yours as well).

[CarbonFiber]

It is obvious who LordBusiness is but I won't reveal their alt if they are not willing. The content he provided seems off with regard to the gamestate. Calling Titan's posts "emotional blackmail" feels like a stretch but tonally he comes across as direct and forceful which makes me think he could be town.

~ F-16

I meant to ask this question last night. What made lord business go from "could be town" to your third strongest town read? And if his alt is obvious to you, how is he anything more than null right now? (I'm not asking for meta here in your response as I'm not interested in outing the alt, just trying to get at the basis for your read.)

There were a few posts in NY169 that felt off to me for all the right reasons. I didn't follow up on them but brushed them aside because I thought it was nothing. Same with a few posts from BB:HoH. I am pretty confident that if I get that vibe at any point, I'll be able to tell with certainty that LB is scum. I never got that feeling so far and his posts felt town. I asked FT what he thought and he agreed enthusiastically that LB was town.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

If it's really bugging you, what struck me as off about LB was when I tried to keep the mafia encryptor alive, he claimed that I was championing the cause. He also had a very, very subtle way of making suspicion on him feel like something that needs to have a lot of effort put in. It was really obvious in hindsight and I know why I didn't say it then. Damn, I wish we were Masons or something because I don't want to say just yet because he may do that in the future just in case I am wrong.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, I'm probably not going to do a lot to sort Nacho this game, since I'm better at reading bork.

There are other players whose reads of me you should be a little concerned about, I think. Nati should go without saying, but orcinus also has a fair bit of experience playing with me.

orcinus' modus in the early game is to vote players he wants to talk to. He dropped his vote and disappeared in this game. What do you make of that?

I somehow missed this post. I don't find anything overwhelmingly townish or scummy about Bork but I have more experience playing with Nacho than him so I'll wait to hear from him.

Regarding Nati, I can generally tell if he is town later on in the game. Watching the Too Many Heads game, I was fairly certain Rancid was town. Spectating on Red Wine, I was quite sure Empire/Nati slot was scum based on both of their D1 interactions. So far Nati hasn't hit any of the town or scum markers I expected from him. In NY169, his posts came across differently but he was expecting me to do a meta-report on him so he might have been more welcoming because of that.

I'm not sure what to make of Orc disappearing after voting you. He certainly didn't do it in Tales of Vesperia and was quite ballsy going after Cait Sith but I'll keep an eye out for him.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Fox, what do you think of Breakfast? The whole bit where he says F-16's posts lack depth doesn't make sense. Thoughts?

I wasn't talking about lack of analytic depth. There is plenty of depth to most of his analysis. I was referring to lack of depth in interaction.

I think his reasons for thinking Mac is town are good, and fit what I've seen in the past from him in terms of how he goes about forming reads.

I asked FT whether my play lacked depth because I wondered if I was just having an off game but he flatly denied it and said I was probably playing better than anyone else which made your lacking depth comment sound off.

When you say lacking depth in interaction, are you saying that you would have preferred that I grill you on your Mac read more as being helpful and pro-town overall or just because it would fit in with my past meta in NY169? Upon re-evaluating my play, I eliminated aspects of it that I thought were unhelpful specifically extended discussion of agreed upon reads. I am going to play in a way I believe would help town the most regardless of what I did before. If I did it differently in a previous game, then I changed my mind since then as to what I believe is the most effective course of action.

Also, are you asking me to compare notes with you because it will help us both refine our reads or was it something you expected to see and didn't see it now? I'd like to know which it was since it'll help me optimize my play not just here but in the future.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Hey F16,
Are ye scum?
Muffin wants to battle ye,
I'm calling him dumb

-Nati

You called him the right thing. Give him a punch in the face to go with it.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

The carbonfiber points I promised:
222 – a lot of fence sitting on reads, yet goes into great detail to say very little. I get early game will not warrant strong reads, but why bother to waffle then?
233 – Acknowledges having nothing solid. So why waffle?

I posted my thoughts about the game. I could have chosen to post nothing but that wouldn't have been very helpful. Probably the same reason you made this post outlining a case on us in great detail and then waffle and say we could be town.

256 – U-Turn on titan seems off because even though you were happy to spend a lot of words saying very little, its only now that you read a person more carefully?

I didn't see anything obviously town from Titan on my first read of the thread. After Tammy engaged me, I read their ISO more closely to see why I didn't get a read and realized they were town all along and I had just missed some of the posts which made them town. I also initially forgot what I wanted to ask Tammy (why she didn't claim that she could read our slot as soon as I posted when other players were commenting on FT's posts but it turns out she was waiting on me to initiate interaction). Also, there is no way 254 came from scum so that sealed the deal. Part of my read was influenced by the push because I saw the obvtowniness there when I previously hadn't. If I were scum who hadn't read the thread carefully, I probably would have townread Titan as I usually do, not wait till I am certain. I've read Tammy as town off of less posts than here before.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, I am not manipulating you on your read on Mastin. I am being very transparent about my read. I think they are scum primarily because Mastin thinks I am scum. There are other supplementary reasons and other things that felt off but overall it fits in exactly what I would expect from scum-Mastin. I don't believe that his read on me is genuine.

If anything, Elementalhawk's posts read as manipulation. He picked up on a post that would resonate with you and attacked me based on it possibly subtly hoping you would agree with it. I am not being subtle about anything. I blatantly agreed with your initial read and I don't agree that backing off would make Mastin town. He had two suspects, you and me. He could easily have called you town so that you wonder if he is town while attacking our slot because we are more certain in our read and easier to attack than you.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I don't think it is impossible for him to have an incorrect read on me. The way he developed the read felt off. He initially read Titan and us as possible scum after seeing some people say that FT's first post looked off. Then he noticed Tammy's incorrect read on me and chose to capitalize on it. He also noticed Tammy's paranoia of me being manipulating after I blatantly tried to explain to her that Mastin's was scum and changed his read so that he had us as scummier than Titan.

He then townread nearly everyone else who would be influential in gathering votes (Rancid, ffery-beli, GIF, Orc, Nacho-bork, with a leaning town on you) for very poor reasons. His reasoning isn't solid and reads look like they serve a scum agenda. He's also being generally unreasonable about his read on us which doesn't make sense from my previous experience with Mastin as town and his push on us felt like he was trying to frustrate us into reacting badly as opposed to genuinely trying to engage us. But I am way too happy and upbeat in this game to let that get to me so he doesn't know what he is dealing with.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

A scumread on Tammy isn't sustainable because scum who scumread Tammy with shit reasons generally wind up dead. I don't know why he chose to scumread Tammy initially other than WIFOM or cred for going after high hanging fruit. He has to figure out a way to back out of the scumread and pretending to see eye to eye with Tammy and her suspicion of me was a perfect opportunity considering he was already working up a scumread based off of FT's initial post.

More than that, his engagement with us after he scumread us doesn't feel like he is genuinely trying to determine our alignment. His reads on other players also don't feel like they are genuine and feel opportunistic.

It isn't uncommon for scum to all attack the same player. I don't think he is scum for voting us over

"someone else"

. I think he is scum because his read feels fake.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

The tone here just doesn't feel like town-F16. I dunno why. That's ignoring the content which I'm intentionally skimming. Something about him just feels off.

Really Mastin? I too can quote a bunch of your posts and say your tone feels "off" but I can't explain why. This is like you are intentionally accusing me in a way that is impossible to respond to. My tone feels fine. I've never been more invested and more determined to burn the scumteam to the ground and you picked the wrong fucking game to try to mislynch me.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Please explain how I was ragey when I haven't said a single negative thing the whole game?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

How on earth do you interpret any of those posts as "ragey?"
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

So, anyone here still think MastinSSK is town?

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, I don't think anyone believes at this point that Titan is scum. I am not even sure how Titan figures into FT's question about whether anyone still thinks MastinSSK is scum. Nobody has claimed that it was a dichotomy of one scum among {Titan, MastinSSK}. One's townflip has absolutely no bearing on the other. I am not even sure why you bothered mentioning that you won't vote Titan. No one is asking you to nor is a Titan lynch even on the table. Also, why respond to a question of "Mastin is scum" with "I will vote neither Titan nor Mastin." It is also us and MastinSSK who are both scumreading each other now with Titan seemingly still solidifying their reads. Nobody is mentally locked into an idea that one of them ought to be lynched. Investigative abilities can be used on any player in the game. It would be

absurd

to use them on Titan as they quite obviously town. There is also no reason to specifically keep both of Mastin or Titan alive over any other player in the game. I don't want to lynch "

one of them.

" Where are you even getting this? I want to lynch Mastin. On the off-chance he flips town, Titan is still obvtown. But FT and I are both quite certain that he won't.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I definitely think having you explain your stances will help me get a read on you while letting me see where you are coming from. I think we've been viewing the game very differently. I think Mastin is scum and so want him lynched. I don't see the connection between him and Titan. They've argued just like any other players in the game. While I agree that their debate was intense, it was also short lived and there have been several other points of discussion in the thread. I am not seeing Mastin and Titan as a package deal or alternative choices because they've had an argument. Is it usual from your past games for players to choose between two sides of a major debate and have it as a highlight of a day? Also, can you explain why us scumreading Mastin would cause you to scumread us? This also ties into me wondering if you usually scumread both sides in a debate or if that's how you play the game.

I didn't initially vote because I was not certain enough that that was the way we want to go. I am usually slow to vote. When FT checked the thread, he emphatically agreed that Mastin was scum and placed a vote. I've been happy with our vote since. I am as convinced as I can be at this point. I am rarely this confident in my reads.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I mean, if you play at a site where people don't generally read others based on the tone of their posts, I can sort of understand why are still considering the possibility of Titan being scum. I've been told by Nacho once that he was playing with Tammy in an offsite game and she garnered loads of suspicion because the MTGS players weren't reading her based on her genuineness which is usually what most established players on mafiascum look for. But that's all secondhand, will wait for Nacho to comment on that. But if your scumhunting differs from most others, you may have different reads from people who play more here and perhaps strengths in different areas.

The site you linked had people almost random-voting D1 and didn't really have lots of good reasons for voting D2. Yet, here you are very thorough in meticulous in your analysis. Where did you pick up the skill to post that way and was there any in-between site you played at? How do you go from playing on a site with a lack of analysis to the extreme detail that you went into earlier?

~ F-16

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, I get the general idea of your playstyle. I'll wait to see more content from you.

DV, I don't think soft-claiming is alignment indicative either. I am fairly sure everyone has some sort of a role and that this is a role madness game like Cabd's previous Tales game. If MastinSSK is scum and intends to fake-claim or claim his real role and look town, he'd soft-claim as much as needed to look as town as he can. Possibly in a game which is not a uPick, and not a Cabd game, I'd wonder if it makes that player town. The last Tales game was lost because players believed Orcinus's fake claim. Everyone is probably going to have some sort of role and a claim isn't hugely alignment indicative. I am going by his play and I think his reads are fabricated. I'd like to hear more of your's and Cephrir's thoughts on his actual play.

Rancid, I am null on the "look at how town I am type" posts and am not scumreading MastinSSK for it. I think he is scum because his reads look fake and opportunistic.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm not sure which one he was talking about. I thought it was possible Clyton's mention of you as potential scum/as a possible lynch could come from reading you differently than most other players.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I believe he was talking about this game which I think is the second one you referred to.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What are your thoughts so far on the last few pages?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Do you think I am wrong about Mastin or should look at anyone else in particular?

Regarding Clyton's posts, they do sound unemotional but I am fairly sure that's his playstyle. I disagree with his view of the gamestate so that's something that should unravel as we get more content from him and he could be looking at it from a different POV.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Nearly everything I do in games I do for multiple reasons. I don't generally keep checklists of stuff I expect to see from players when I play with them. When something seems off in someone's play, then I think about why - what they're doing that I haven't seen before, what they're not doing that I have seen, etc. Those kinds of observations become shorthand in my reads, but there's usually a whole cascade of detail I can post when asked. Mac and I have played in about 10 games, now. And I just realized that this isn't your first game with him. He was one of the heads in the Stuffed Crust hydra. The head I was mostly townreading. :/

You said something earlier about thinking that you had irritated me in the ny169 game by asking for more detail about my reads. IIRC I did get snappish about being asked for updated reads at one point, but it was the week my laptop bit the dust and I was posting from a netbook or a tablet for a few days. massive rereads, heavy analysis, and even documenting my thoughts with links was a huge pain that week and I put it off until I bought a new laptop. IIRC it was 4 or 5 days duration.

I meant to respond to this but was waiting to develop a few more reads. I forgot that Mac was in NY169. I mostly only recalled Varsoon. I am trying to reset and re-read again to make sure I'm not incorrectly townreading scum. Titan and Mac are the ones I am most sure of as town at this point. What were the footnotes about Mac that concerned you?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

mastin's a fairly competent scum player and not afraid to go after strong players iirc, I'm also fairly certain he wouldn't ever take on a read he felt the need to back out of as scum.

Not being afraid to go after strong players has nothing to do with strategically backing down from a read. If you're competent scum, you adapt to circumstances. That means, you look for a way to back out of a read it isn't serving your interests anymore.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin says he thinks Elemental is our partner based on the same reasons I provided for believing Elemental is Mastin's partner.

But that totally ignores the point of my analysis. The point was that Elemental is casting far more suspicion on us than Mastin. Think about it this way, if Elemental were our partner, why is he going after us instead of Mastin? The whole point behind the tell is that you attack your partner, but then vote for the guy attacking your partner. It's not that explicit in Elemental's post (Eleental doesn't quite vote for us yet) but that's the gist of what he's doing.

I never played with Mastin before, but from what I understand, shouldn't we expect better from him? He doesn't seem to be reading very carefully, or considering any sort of motivation behind posts.

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

Peregrine, did you catch up? What are your thoughts?

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

I've been thinking about this game more and although I lean towards Mastin being scum more than town, I am not as certain as I was last night mostly because people who can actually read him and those who are obviously town seem to hold very strong opinions about him which makes me wonder if I am wrong.

I quickly re-read through Too Many Heads mafia where Rancid (Nati and Muffin) nailed down Mastin as scum with ease and their strong townread on him here gives me pause. I doubt Mastin would be able to manipulate them into lynching people that townread him. Rancid, I can see why certain things may not make him scum but what's the big picture? Can you elaborate on why he is so obviously town? One thing I noticed you picked up on in Too Many Heads was that Mastin can't replicate "whimsy" as scum. Is he whimsy here? Or has he done anything else that he can't replicate so far?

The other reason is Bork's read. Bork, are you still solidifying your town read on Mastin or are you sure about it? Can you explain your reasons for me? If town who should I be looking at instead? You mentioned Post 164 as very town. Can you elaborate on that? Also, what are your reads on Rancid and Breakfast so far? I am also having trouble reading Clyton because I was taking a much more different approach to the game that he was. Can you explain your townread there more in depth?

---

Other reads:

Bork's posting of

Kagura

feels very town on a re-read. I think by waiting for Nacho, I was missing the obvious. The way Bork engages with arguments gives me strong vibes from the first two Tales games and I didn't feel the same tone when following a scum game of his (We The Purple). His question to NotScience in Post 72 mirrored what FT and I initially wondered as well regarding NotScience's read on SSK. I also like his engagement with Rancid in Post 472 and it matches up with the critical thinking and assertively inserting himself into arguments that I've seen in Tales of Vesperia where he engaged Cait Sith on their arguments very specifically going over the details and he comes acrosss the same way tonally. I feel I was kinda missing the obvious with this read here. ffery, do you think I am on the right track? Because I'd probably bank more on my townread here than other previous reads which are growing a lot more stale. I am confident in this read even without hearing from Nacho at all.

Spoiler: Updated reads

Town (S->W): Titan, Bork, Mac, Fox, RedGyarados, LB

Pedit: Will get to the rest later.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Regarding MastinSSK, I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from (and this is my fault). By 'look how town I am', I don't mean the arrogance. I mean that many parts of their posts feel fabricated in order to look town without there being any other point to it. This is not something I've felt about Mastin at least in my other games with her.

What do you make of his early certainty in townreads and choices of players to townread for various reasons?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Cephrir, why did MastinSSK using a lot of eeee's annoy you? You did the same thing here as town in response to MafiaSSK.

Bork, thanks for the links, I'll take a look at them when I get a chance.

ffery, what are your read on Titan and MastinSSK?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, Tammy I feel there is something missing from your play so far.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

It feels like you are saying that if 3Dice is scum, there is probably one scum among the three of us but you are not sure?

Also, you said you had an urge to mediate between townreads. Who specifically were you referring to?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, Tammy I feel there is something missing from your play so far.

~ F-16

There's actually nothing missing from my play so far, and if I'm the strongest town read you say I am why not ask me or point out what you think is missing?

I was hoping to ask you once you respond. What I felt was missing is that you didn't have the same presence in the thread as you usually do when you are town like in both of Empire's game and the last Tales game where you controlled the direction and flow of the game. You don't always do it as town but when you do, I know you are town for sure. I was rather hoping you would show up at some point and take charge and point out that my paranoia of you is silly.

The other thing is that your interactions with me were different than what I expected and different from any other game so far. Specifically, when I asked you about Mastin, you agreed with me and then said my posts were "reasonable and inquisitive" but it just didn't have as much conviction and also you didn't comment on the interaction between Clyton and I regarding his thoughts about you and MastinSSK being a dichotomy. I guess I expected you to comment. Also, your interaction with me reminds me of what you said felt off about Sotty7 in Z-mafia regarding how she sorted JasonT1981. I felt that you interacting with me was off in the same way since you usually react differently.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I'll wait to see what your thoughts are when you have the time and are running at full speed. And your cat is adorable, there's no way he is scum.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I have Titan and Mastin as town and you as a fairly weak town read atm.

And no, I'm not assuming that one of you 3 are scum if 3dice is scum at all.

What changed since Tales of Vesperia where you were not confident in your ability to read Tammy based off of your Red Wine misread. How are you confident now?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Can you define "cross-current" because I have no idea what it means in a mafia context.

Regarding the two separate town games, are you referring specifically to the QTs or did you feel that the players were thinking along separate game interpretations in the thread?

What reads did you get out of the interpretations and misinterpretations of the game or "cross-currents" as you say. Who did you feel have the right and wrong interpretations and did that affect your read on them one way or another?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I think your expectations based on past games differ slightly from mine. For instance, I don't particularly care too much if someone fooled me in a past game and make it a point to delay a read on them although I sometimes do. It depends on a lot of other factors that influence that read. You on the other hand generally make it a point to delay reads that you've been wrong about before. That's why I misread your paranoia of Tammy in Tales of Vesperia as you faking it because if I had been in your position in Red Wine, I wouldn't have given it much thought. I was in the spectator QT of Red Wine thinking Tammy could be town although I had the rest of the scumteam pegged. That didn't affect my future reads on Tammy at all. In Z-mafia, I was confident in my townread. In Pick Your Poison, I was overwhelmingly confident. Although part of it could be because I was skimming the Red Wine game without thinking much and missed huge parts of it completely (especially her reaction to Cabd and how Empire lied about it being town) which I tend to do when I spectate compared with analyzing and re-analyzing the game as a player. I think your worldview is different in that you expect some paranoia for misreads. I believe that is why you felt something was off based on my early townread of you in NY169 because I townread Sangres at a few points in Micro 252 (although to be fair, Nacho's contribution to that townread was massive). It is probably the mirror image of the reason I initially misread you while spectating Tales of Vesperia because I figured if Tammy was town, it would be obvious so why would you be paranoid over Red Wine. Do you think that our different approaches there was a factor in your initial hesitation in your NY169 read of me?

So, I am not really sure what to make of Mastin's initial post to Tammy. It is possible his not taking it into account could be alignment relevant or merely something he missed, or something he did remember but thought that the games weren't connected. I too had a townleaning read on LordBusiness for his uninformed reaction although it has gone a bit stale now.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What do you mean by me "building my game" around Tammy? You've mentioned this before but as far as I recall, I spent plenty of time reading several players in the game. I think you've mentioned this phrase before with regard to Bert but I am not quite sure what you are referring to. As far as developing quick reads, I try to develop reads on players easily readable so I can work with them. If someone I work well with is hard to read (like Nacho), I sometimes invert that like in NY169 where I made that deal although I decided that's probably a bad idea.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

(Iirc That was my reaction to ffery, and I was actually telling the truth of how I prefer to play games. I'm extremely adaptable in games, malleable and moody. I won't always be a leader directing the game. If someone else steps into that role, I step back into a more evaluative role. UNLESS I have strong scum reads and I feel like I'm right, then I tend to push ahead. much of how I act and interact has to do with my reads, how I feel about my reads, how I feel my impact on the game is, what's going on in the game, how I feel my standing in the game is, and my mood.)

I know, that's why I only use it to sort you one way: town if you are a leader and null if you are not and try to read you some other way (as opposed to town/scum). I generally have to read more deeply into your play if you are not leading like in Z-mafia it was obvious why you were not because Nacho was doing that job quite well and RedCoyote did a really good job hiding which made most of us lack confident scumreads on that second day.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

My read on Mara/Cabd was a massive disaster I don't even want to be reminded of and basically helped Nacho grab massive towncred from whiteknighting. But you are probably right that I make some reads a priority. I was already somewhat suspicious of Maraca. I picked up on their fake-claim much later and thought it likely that they were not fake-claiming a PR, just their partner, that was what I told Cabd I might explain later on. But I probably should refine the way I townbloc to eliminate mistakes like NY169 and I am trying to work towards that.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I felt DV in Swagtown was more aggressive and on the attack than solidifying townreads so that threw me off for a while. There is less pushing of scumreads here. But I also read one of DV's scumgames very closely and he was quite pushy and opportunistic there but in a different way. I like most of the content they provided and I had a few moments of paranoia but I told FT that I always read Cephrir as scum and his job is to quell my paranoia whenever I present it if he genuinely believed that Fox was town (he does). I even linked him to Red Wine and NY169 just to make absolutely sure he is aware of how good Cephrir's scumgame is and he emphatically answered that he had as massively strong town so I feel pretty good about our slot's read on them overall.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I am hoping to put them aside as town but I'll probably end up linking it for FT at some point. Which posts of theirs concerned you regarding the manipulation?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What do you think of ffery's latest posts? I have a townlean but I am not as certain as I was in NY169 partly because I know there are a lot of things she can't fake when scum and was hoping to see if something pops up that'll help me know with certainty.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, Tammy I feel there is something missing from your play so far.

~ F-16

i'll pay attention

pedit: serious vote?

I think Tammy feels town overall. Maybe a weaker townread than I've had on her in other games but still town. I am looking for a few other things but that should be obvious as the day goes on.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Orc feels town too.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, here's who I think is town (will provide reasons later): Titan, Kagura, Mac, Fox, Breakfast, Orc, Red Gyarados, Lord Business
Scum are among: Rancid, MastinSSK, JustSheepUs, Cupcake, Clyton, ElementalHawk, Yukari, PereV

I need to refine this list a little and I'll re-read each of them to make sure.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Updating my reads. NotScience and LB sort of faded out so I don't really feel confident in those reads so I'll wait to see what they post after they come back.

I felt that

Orcinus's

confusion over FT and me and desire to sort FT felt genuine and the things he picked up on are accurate enough differentiators of our playstyles. The way he handled it didn't feel like it had an agenda as well. His reaction to MastinSSK in Post 378 felt fairly natural and his trying to sort Breakfast, then Kagura, then Titan (and then maybe FT and I) makes sense with what I would expect from Orc.

BreakfastWithStalin's

interaction with me felt slightly town and I felt the point about discussing reads more in-depth after NY169 made sense and is exactly the way I'd expect ffery as town to go about sorting differences in meta from game to game. I also think the pro-active, yet reserved manner comes across as townish and it feels like she has thoughts that she is holding back but in a natural way.

I'm going to reread the thread and Swagtown to solidify my Fox read and see what RG and LB produce when they come back.

Spoiler:

Town (S->W): Titan, Kagura, Mac, Orc, Breakfast, Fox <gap> RedGyarados, LordBusiness

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Are you townreading me cold f16, or is meta involved there?

Honestly, I am not sure how I want to approach this read. I'll try to respect your decision to want to be read cold but I can't just forget what I know of your meta. I won't say it in the thread though, it'll all be in my head. I do have a question: why did you make a case on our slot and conclude that our later posts are town? You even asked me why in post 527 why I was posting anything if I had nothing solid and am waffling so I assumed if you were waffling on me, by that logic you wouldn't want to post anything.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

You're gonna have to lay that one out for me, I don't get it.

The way Orc pointed out a post from me and said that it isn't part of my meta and then realized he was confusing me with FT felt genuine. I don't see the point of faking it as scum. While it is possible he could be scum that was genuinely confused, I don't think it is likely because of the way he approached it, pro-actively asking ffery to help him out there. I also felt his overall demeanor felt lighter and more natural than Tales of Vesperia. You were in the spectator QT with me watching. Do you disagree and do you have any comments about any of other reads?
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Flippy as in easily swayed. I mean it seems convenient that 3 posts after Tammy says his post is terrible, he comes back and says he iso'd Tammy and she's pretty town. It also seems kind of weird that CF instantly sees the genuineness NS was referring to right after he points it out to him. CF - What specifically from Titan's ISO changed your read around?

I explained the things I found town in Post 256. If you are asking why I didn't townread them in my first post, I only read the thread once and it wasn't enough to get a read. When they engaged me on it, I read their ISO and realized that they were town. Also, their push on me felt incredibly genuine and influenced my read. That wasn't there when I made the initial post.

There is no "convenience" in changing positions so drastically. If I were scum, I'd probably just townread Titan and be done with it considering I never misread Tammy. Look at the timing of the posts 239 and 256. I was reading Titan in ISO for about 45 minutes. That's actually a pretty massive towntell for me but I'd only expect people who know me to realize that. I don't scan a 65 post ISO for 45 minutes as scum to try to get something out of it because I just don't

care

that much.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, I'd like to hear your thought process. I think it'll help. Can you go over it please?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What are the reads that you are getting that conflicts with other people's reads? Have your reads changed since the last time you posted them?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery, for someone who is closely scrutinizing my interactions with other players, I am curious why you haven't commented on me ignoring all of Nacho's posts?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Orc, what is the problem with pointing it out? I wanted to see if I could solidify my read for good.

ffery, that's fine. I'll wait to hear your thoughts after you finish catching up with the game. Also, another thing I wondered when re-reading our earlier back-and-forth, why did you choose to ask me to elaborate on my Mac read in particular as opposed to reads that you are less certain about? For one, I already explained my read on Mac before you asked, and for another, your usual strategy seems to be to discuss more contentious reads as opposed to agreed upon ones, correct me if I am wrong here. I was going off of your 626 as an example.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't asking ffery why she didn't interact with Nacho. I was asking her why she didn't comment on me not interacting with him. But you are right, I should have waited. I hadn't realized that she wasn't caught up.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

What do you mean by me "building my game" around Tammy? You've mentioned this before but as far as I recall, I spent plenty of time reading several players in the game. I think you've mentioned this phrase before with regard to Bert but I am not quite sure what you are referring to. As far as developing quick reads, I try to develop reads on players easily readable so I can work with them. If someone I work well with is hard to read (like Nacho), I sometimes invert that like in NY169 where I made that deal although I decided that's probably a bad idea.
~ F-16

Your read of Tammy seemed like your highest priority in NY 169, and it seemed/seems the same here. Read priority is part of it, but from there you aggressively townbloc based on her reads, and in NY169 you did so by excluding players (mainly Mara/Cabd, who were bleeding PR tells) who didn't agree with you about her and that she was scumreading because of their push on her. You scumread them and I think at one point on day 1 were trying to drum up a wagon on them.

Anyway, I may be seeing parallels that aren't really all that strong here.

So, I re-read NY169 and I am pretty sure I townblocked based on my own reads so I am not sure what parallels you were looking for but I think you misunderstood how I developed my reads. I had about 5 solid townreads: your slot, Tammy, Desperado, Pieguyn, Bert. No one else really influenced those reads and I pretty much came up with them myself and I remember both you and Tammy were gut-scumreading Pieguyn and Desperado but I was arguing for them (mostly Pie) being town and attempting to persuade the others. I tend to re-evaluate reads if my townreads disagree with me if I am not confident about them. But if I am, I am usually the one persuading the others to lay off and it shows more with my townreads i.e. I am more stubborn about derailing bad lynches than caring too much about which of my non-townreads are lynched.

As for read priority, it depends on the game. I read players that I find easiest to read first and then move onto harder to read players. I'll consider their opinions but I wouldn't townbloc based on their reads if I didn't agree with them. I use it more as a springboard for re-evaluating reads and meta-diving.

I was wrong about Maraca but I was scumreading them for a while and they too were scumreading me and we were locked onto a mutual tunnel. I am not sure what you mean by "excluding players" from a townbloc. I wasn't trying to exclude them so much as (incorrectly) pushing their wagon. That's also probably the only read I was ridiculously off on D1 on. I think you are wrong about your expectations of what parallels to look for and you shouldn't be expecting me to townbloc based on other player's reads because that isn't how I play the game.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, I have a few questions if you are still here.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

1) What didn't you like about my townread on Mac?

2) Why did you think me attempting to work with specific players was manipulation and equate it to your Too Many Heads posting when you know as I well as I do that working with specific players is beneficial as town? In fact, I've seen you stress a lot about how town need to understand other player's reasoning, persuade them, and appeal to them in your MD articles.

3) What made you change your mind into "can see Carbon as town" from being so certain we were scum?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, can you elaborate more on why you think scumreading LB wouldn't have consequences, and which scumreads would and why?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I haven't seen anything overwhelmingly townish from AP's slot and I think the interactions between AP and Mastin are too noisy and there is not a lot of attempt to persuade others to vote AP. I don't have a townread on Mastin either. I think Fox is likely town but I'll consider Nacho's read and go over DV games I've read. Mostly for my reference but feel free to add any other games. I was in the first one. The second, I read it a few weeks ago but need to go over again.

TOWN: Mini 1472: Welcome to Swagtown
SCUM: NY 160B: Welcome to Castle Zar

I also think I have a pretty good tell on Katsuki based on the flow of his reads but I'll need him to post more to see if I am right.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Yeah, I loved reading the Castle Zar game watching you and Empire solve the puzzle.

I am not yet sure on Just Sheep Us. There is actually something I am waiting for so I'll get back to you on this.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@F-16: Mastin is town. Stubborn. Tunnely. Town. I say this and I may end up waffling on her later in crippling bouts of paranoia and fits of crying, but shes town despite what I may or may not say in the future
You aren't cozying up to Tammy are you

Of course I am cozying up to Tammy (and her kitten).

I'll take your Mastin read into consideration if I develop a townread on you at some point. Do you have any completed games with Mastin besides Anything Goes as town/scum, scum/scum etc? I want to look at your interactions more.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@ Katsuki, who are your other scumreads and who are you reading as town?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I don't even get in what world anyone can consider Tammy's/my analytical posts being bad while condoning the noise created by other players. Come off it, Nati, that's just disingenuous.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I don't know what you are talking about or why you are demoralized. If you genuinely have a problem, I am all for resolving it.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

If that's the case, his annoyance is misplaced. He could maybe address the people creating noisy back-and-forths as opposed to someone like me who is keeping noise to a minimum. There is plenty of stuff that I haven't responded to and don't intend to because I don't believe it will help me solve the game. Most of my back-and-forths are questions, conversations, or analysis/explanations of reads.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

F-16: One and only reach-out I'm doing to you. Bluntly, I'm town. Don't give a shit if you've got concerns otherwise. You got questions on my play that're relevant to my reads, I'll answer, but otherwise, chasing me is a waste of time, so drop it. Fox/Hound is scum. So if you're town, listen to my words.

Your post doesn't seem so much like a reach-out more than "sheep me" because you haven't left any room for refining our reads or admitting you could be wrong based on me having contradicting reads.

BUT, I'll roll with it to see if we can get somewhere.

How about you start with explaining your scumread on Fox and the Hound? I've looked at their posts, I've seen them vote RBD in response to Desp's push. I've seen them switch back to you and throughout that, I saw their posts as incredibly genuine and was on the point of ditching my scheduled meta-dive if Tammy and Nacho are on the same page as me (btw, Tammy/Nacho,

are

you on the same page?)

What am I missing?

Also, Desp and BRO look pretty town. BRO's rage seems to be a feature of his towngame although I've seen him do it before as scum. Do you feel that it is fake here?

That puts me with 9 townreads now leaving MastinSSK, Rancid, Clyton, PereV, Cupcake, AP, GIF

I lean gut-town on Clyton, Cupcake and PereV but I need more info to solidify those reads.

Let's assume you are town. In that scenario, let's say Rancid is also town. I'm actually more convinced 3Dice/AP could be scum and that's a push I can get behind. Maybe Cupcake but that's more due to a lack of content but I can buy Cupcake-scum if Mastin-town.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Oh, as to why I am townreading BRO and Desp: Desp's reads list is very close to mine. I am seeing eye to eye with them. There are a few other reasons I want to wait to explain them. It'll be clearer later.

Pedit: I think Clyton could be town. I have a hard time reading him so I am trying to get as much content from him as I can get. Cupcake could be town too but I need more content. Same with PeregrineV. I'll explain the reads when I have something more solid than gut. I don't think my reads are infallible. All it took was Nacho saying he was reading DV as scum to want to revisit that read. "Solid" is relative. I am not going to try to lynch every player outside of my town-list till LYLO. I'll refine my reads as the game progresses.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

So not liking: F-16, BRO, GIF. Would lynch. Also maybe Kagura, Bork needs to talk to me.

I find it odd that you consider working with other players to be scummy. I generally bounce thoughts off of others, Tammy in particular to help me refine my reads and build concensus.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

So not liking: F-16, BRO, GIF. Would lynch. Also maybe Kagura, Bork needs to talk to me.

I find it odd that you consider working with other players to be scummy. I generally bounce thoughts off of others, Tammy in particular to help me refine my reads and build concensus.

~ F-16

Also, most players bounce thoughts off of each other to refine their reads. Tammy and I have done it in the past few games we've played. I don't like that you tried to spin it in a negative way ("cozying up" = scummy) because it feels like at some level, you are trying to discourage town cohesion. The posts on the page you pointed out as well as earlier posts involved getting each other's input to see if we have any new insights.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

ffery, where are you and Beli at with your scumreads?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Ok, I'll ISO RBD with this post in mind in a bit. I mean, mastin is pretty town though and I wouldnt describe what I've seen from RBD->mastin as buddying, rather townblocking? Their attitude towards mastin is a pretty fucking hardsell to assume mastin town, RBD scum.

I don't like this post. Clearly you are aware that town work with each other and collaborate. Yet, you are pointing out CF-Titan interactions as "cozying up" as opposed to two players townblocking. I initially thought you were joking but after seeing you are serious and seeing that you understand that town work with each other, I don't like your previous post.

-----

I'll look into the Xenogears game when I find some time. But I am holding onto my Fox read. I'd like to hear Nacho's read on DV as well since he was scumreading them.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Yes the difference being that rbd is blatantly town and showing no subtlety in defending mastin.

You are buttering tammy up by reminiscing about games she won as town, irrelevantly.

It is not that she necessarily won the game, it was that I read the game and enjoyed the way it was solved by the town so I mentioned it. The game was relevant because I intend to discuss DeasVail's meta when I get a chance a re-read it and have some thoughts. I don't really care if she won or lost the game. I would have mentioned my thoughts about it if I felt like it. It is still a good meta-reference.

I think you were probably talking about a different thing in reference to RBD/MastinSSK but when I talk about townblocking, I am talking about mutual townreads bouncing reads off of each other and refining them, sometimes based on past games that both have played in or spectated. I find it incredibly pro-town, no one is perfect and having second opinions always helps.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

It is not that she necessarily won the game, it was that I read the game and enjoyed the way it was solved by the town so I mentioned it. The game was relevant because I intend to discuss DeasVail's meta when I get a chance a re-read it and have some thoughts. I don't really care if she won or lost the game. I would have mentioned my thoughts about it if I felt like it. It is still a good meta-reference.

If you want to talk about DV, then talk about DV, you have yet to actually do that other than to link 2 games and jump to the conclusion that hes town.

You have spent more time being Tammy's fanboy than you have actually explaining why those games make DV look town here. Who is a leading wagon right now.

LOL, the games I linked were mostly for my reference but also just in case anyone wanted quick access to what I was referring to. I was going to get back to it later to explain my DV read, I said as much. It is not the I posted links to games I follow up later on.

Tammy mentioned that she played both games sparking casual conversation and I replied that I liked reading them because I did and I wrote it in a single sentence while also answering another question about my read on Desp. You can feel free to ask Tammy whether she thinks I am cozying up to her or whether we are collaboratively working together. I don't like you characterizing the latter as the former. It feels like you are undermining collaboration by painting it as a one-sided thing.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I was going to get back to it later to explain my DV read, I said as much. It is not the I posted links to games I follow up later on.

What? I really do not know what you are arguing here.

You linked 2 games. You then subtly buddy up to Tammy by talking about how really enjoyed watching her win those games.

You have yet to actually talk about those games, other than that, at all.

If you have a point to make a bout DV being town, it really shouldn't take you that long. You wouldn't have linked DV games with the intent of explaining a jumped-to conclusion about DV's alignment wrt those games if you didn't have some basis for believing those games show his alignment is more likely one thing than the other.

DV is a leading wagon. If you really want to look like you are doing something other than just linking random ass games, buddying Tammy, and WKing DV, then actually do what you keep saying you are going to. It really shouldnt be that difficult.

Dude, posting game links with no explanation is part of my playstyle. If you want links to past games where I did this, ask. I usually tend to follow up on them later on. I have yet to talk about them, so what? I will do it when I will.

There is no subtle buddying here. She was the one who engaged me about it she was in one of the games and I said I liked reading it because I had fun watching it unfold.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, what do you think of AP's buddying accusation? I didn't feel that it was genuine.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

You have spent more time being Tammy's fanboy than you have actually explaining why those games make DV look town here. Who is a leading wagon right now.

...it's because I'm awesome?

(Insert cool awesome gif here.)

What the heck Tammy, I expected you to have my back there.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@ AP, not sure if you are misunderstanding but I

do

intend to post stuff about DV. It'll come when I am ready.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I've got five solid townreads and narrowed down scum to four of the remaining eleven.

Oh yeah, this was the point and the specific post that made me think, "bullshit"

Especially given one of your oh-so-solid town reads was FoxHound. The rest I could maybe understand, but even then, I did not believe you as town would really think your reads were infallible that early in the game.

You've seen me play as town before, right? You think I wouldn't have five solid townreads by post 450?

-FT

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, what do you think of AP's buddying accusation? I didn't feel that it was genuine.

~ F-16

I'm not sure what I think of it. I do certainly think it's odd and didn't consider it until you pointed it out that he automatically considered mastin/muffin town blocking cut couldn't see the same thing here. AP is a bit of a question mark for me here. I'm realizing that I've never been town in a game with Angry Pigeon; the closest I came was being an SK in a game where he was mafia. Right now I'm not really sure how to parse the brouhaha between AP/JustSheepUs/Mastin/RBD with Fox and Hound on the side. Have you been able to take away anything from all that?

I am seeing Fox and Bro-Desp as town with Mastin/Muffin/AP scum.

Fox's reactions to the pressure on them felt incredibly genuine and most of their posting so far is relatable and makes sense. Their Disney picture presenting the Rancid vote was hilarious and natural. I didn't like Mastin saying that he was not going to let them mislynch Rancid. I mean Muffin is a ridiculously difficult lynch and I don't understand the protectiveness towards him because he isn't one that needs any.

BRO and Desp's reads match mine very closely, I don't have a read on BRO yet but I can see eye to eye with Desp.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

CF less so, but it could be from feeling like my overall play style is in a state of flux and F-16's meta-based questioning of me gives me the feeling that I need to stay within my usual envelope, but it doesn't FIT.

Ffery, what do you mean by this?

Also, you said that you are concerned Nacho hasn't approached you with his reads but I see you haven't either. You had similar concerns with me early game. Do you generally prefer to be approached for comparing notes as opposed to pro-actively asking it of others?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Your post is actually a pretty good example of what I mean. What I generally prefer doesn't matter. I'm outside the general preferences envelope this game. You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect. For, me that's not the stuff reads are made of. The dance isn't choreographed in advance.

And I've actually reached out to nacho at least a couple times and haven't gotten much if anything in response.

Actually, I've been doing the opposite of that. I mentioned earlier that I am not going to emulate what I did in previous games and refine my play to be as pro-town as I can and if it doesn't match expectations, then those expectations will have to shift. I am not sure how you got the exact opposite impression from what I am saying.

I am asking about your general preference because it seemed rather odd to ask why someone isn't comparing notes with you as opposed to just saying "

here are my reads, what are your thoughts?

" or just asking what I thought of player X etc. But, I can buy that staying aloof and waiting to see who approaches you helps you get reads on those players. Your preference matters because it will help in developing a read and to establish a baseline although I am going to see a few past games for this.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Good luck with that. I just said in the post that prompted your inquiries that my usual envelope doesn't FIT. You may find some signs of change in some recently completed games. I really don't know. I haven't been happy with results lately. Something needs fixing.

I think I misunderstood your posts. I assumed that you were saying that my play doesn't fit the usual envelope as opposed to

your

play but that makes a lot more sense now.

I wanted to know whether your being observational/hands off this game is intentional, and if so what is the purpose of it? And how you got the impression of tailoring my game to expectations when I said I wouldn't?

I am also not asking you to stay within your usual envelope. When I am seeing differences, I am enquiring about them to make sure I understand the reasons for the deviation.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I can see the hands-off approach as necessary based on the direction this game has taken.

I am still confused by this quote though:

You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect.

It seemed like you were saying I was trying to tailor my interactions as opposed to me expecting you to stay within an envelope. Can you clarify?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Im having a hard time seeing how someone could find that team to be a reasonable suggestion, but ok. Explain to me why it makes sense to you? I get the fox townread.

I could speculate. I am not going to. But I tend to go over interaction analysis with flipped scum later on in the game so that'll have to wait.

I'm not going to rush my F-16 read. I'd say that I'd like to see more of FourTrouble, but I'm much less familiar with his play than with F-16 so I'm probably better off trying to figure out the head I know better. From my perspective, living inside my own head and knowing how game events strike me and motivate me, I'm finding the stuff that he jumps on to be kinda meh. When I've been scum against town-him, that's not how I felt about his lines of questioning, so I dunno. Not knowing his alignment and not feeling like I'm under the meta Eye of Sauron, the questions just don't always seem like they'll be useful in sorting me. I try to cooperate when people are sorting me, but it helps if I have the sense that their questions will be useful.

I had the distinct impression that you didn't know how your response to my push on you in Empire's game was alignment indicative. Perhaps you are more attuned to the stuff that gives you away when you are scum but aren't as self-aware when you are town? But other than that, I am not sure why you have a ton of trouble sorting me considering I have a pretty massive body of work. Are there any positions you'd like me to explain in more detail?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@ Ffery, it is up to you to disagree if you don't think it was alignment indicative. It is just that your overall demeanor about disagreeing with what I picked up keeps puzzling me although I still lean quite town on your play. I don't agree that the stuff I picked up on is meh, I'd ask you to elaborate if you think it will be productive. Otherwise, hopefully, we'll understand it better as the game progresses.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Prod-dodging. Still working on some analysis. I'll put up my read on DV tonight or tomorrow and hopefully get a chance to discuss during the weekend.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Beli, where are you at with your reads on Rancid and AP?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

DV Analysis:

I felt DV's progression of suspicion on Rancid felt incredibly town. In particular, I liked how he went from having mild concerns in Post 383 towards a full-out case and vote in Post 1165. A lot of the reasoning he provided there also made a ton of sense considering Rancid's reaction of wanting to gladiate BRO and Desp wasn't the strongest. I also liked the additional criticism of Nati's outburst since was misdirected. Even more than the content, the ostentatious tone with which he cast the vote felt incredibly bold and not at all "

safe

" the way Mastin is portraying Fox's posting to be. Regardless of whether you actually agree with DV's reasons, I didn't feel like voting Muffin's slot who is one of the most difficult lynches on the site to be either safe or opportunistic (and no, being hated doesn't make him a significantly easier lynch). I like the reasons DV provided for his vote, I like the timing and I liked the forcefulness with which he presented his case.

Take a look at how he presents his scumreads in his other town and scum games.

SCUM:
NY160B: Welcome to Castle Zar: The timing of his Snowstorm scumread in Post 555 felt off and ill-timed, pushing on reasons that he never commented on before and having no real read-progression. He also wasn't very ostentatious or attention grabbing with the way he pushed the read and it felt a lot more weak and his heart really wasn't in it.

/in-vitational12: His scumread on Penguin who was a likely lynch in Post 334 again came across as sleazy and opportunistic and not at all like he genuinely believed the reasons behind it. It was also somewhat nebulous and the reasons he provided were weak and not concrete at all.

TOWN:
Mini 1472: You can see that the way DV asserts himself is completely different from his scumgames. The reasoning he provides for his push on PurpleLobsta here in Post 249 and the way he presented it was much more solid than any of his scumgames and gives the impression that he genuinely believed what he was saying. His continued push in his later posts also had the same solid backing and confident reasoning and he isn't afraid to put himself in the limelight.

Song Contest Upick: Note in particular his read on T-Bone and it comes across as very natural and the push is strong and the language he uses in Post 1699 feels like he isn't holding anything back. This differs from the often stilted tone in his scumgames where the fact that he doesn't really believe in his reads becomes evident.

Overall, I like the content that the Fox and the Hound have provided. Their positions are relatable and understandable, I can follow most of their reasoning, and the way DV pushes his reads feels a lot more like his pushes as town than scum.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Its part of why I disliked CF's posts about DV (looks like just pinning meta to justify a pre-decided read to a degree).

I initially had a townread on Fox. I searched through his meta to either confirm or reverse my read. I was open to reversing it if I found that DV played more to his scum-meta. I had an initial read but it wasn't "pre-decided" what my final read would be. By that logic, you'd never do a meta-dive except for flat null-reads.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Here's where I am at:

I am not opposed to an AngryPidgeon lynch and he is a much better lynch than most and I'll switch if that's the way we want to go.

What I'd strongly prefer we not do is lynch any of Just Sheep Us or The Fox and The Hound.

They along with Titan, Kagura, Mac, Breakfast, Orc, and Cupcake are strong townreads. RedGyarados and LB are weaker townreads. RG is mostly because FT is concerned about them but the replacement queue involved needing NotScience replacements so I am thinking town. That leaves MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, Clyton, GIF, and PeregrineV.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, so I read the wall (skimmed a few parts), I am not going to do a piece by piece response of everything in it although I'll post general thoughts on stuff that's useful.

Explanation of my read on Cupcake for PeregrineV

:

Here's the baseline I have for Katsuki (Cupcake) as scum: Katsuki is very good at predicting the ebb and flow of wagons. He can generally tell when a wagon takes off and when it won't. For the most part, he knows where the town herd will go before it actually happens. It is a useful skill as scum and Katsuki as scum is known to go with the flow or precede the flow if he can predict it. See Anything Goes which you were in for example. I also have played a game with Katsuki as scum (Death Note) where I noticed the same tendencies.

His play here is far away from his scum play and actually matches the against the grain nature of his town play. I'd expect scum-Cupcake to vote us, or the Fox and the Hound at various points but he doesn't. He resolutely stayed on MastinSSK for the entire time despite signs of the movement of the town herd in various directions. I didn't want to reveal this at first because if he was scum, I'd rather he not know how I was reading him until I got enough data to make a determination. It is nearly the end of D1 and I am confident at this point that he is showing no inclination to move with the herd (arguably, his vote is in Mastin who was at times the biggest wagon BUT he kept his vote on Mastin when lots of people townread him and other wagons were popping). He is playing

nothing

like he was in Anything Goes, do you agree?

My "scum are among" group isn't a list of players that I am scumreading but rather a list of players that I wasn't townreading. Leftovers. Null and scum reads. All POE'd from my town pile. I at first didn't want to add Katsuki to my town pile because I had too little info. But now I am happy to do it. And yeah, he didn't post anything other than trolly stuff but it was more of the lack of opportunistic wagon hopping that has him as town. I had a feeling he was town even towards the beginning but it wasn't strong and I was holding off waiting to see if he does anything scummy. He didn't.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I was just about to head out when your saw this ^ post.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on nearly all of our townreads and can POE the game pretty easily. I think scum are trying to sow apathy by posting massive mountains of bullshit.

Is there anything you wanted to discuss while you are here?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy

,

please don't leave the game. Don't be discouraged from posting because of the load of fluff in the game. I was a little exasperated as well but I am trying to find out what is important and what isn't. You are literally one of the only players I am seeing eye to eye with that is also active and posting a lot of reasonable things that I can understand in the midst of all the other stuff to parse through.

Your posting is not bad and anyone who is critisizing it or complaining about it is either scum or can't read. If I have to pick one playerslot's posts I am looking forward to reading in this game, it would be yours. We both have very, very similar reads and I need your help in POEing the rest of the game. Get in here and play the game and we can win this by D4 after hopefully four scum lynches.

inb4 AngryPidgeon: "LOL buddying"

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

PV feels town (gut for now, explanation later). That's 11 townreads. Some are weaker than others but it is a great start. I got scum narrowed down to 4 out of 5. Now I really have to head out.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, I am not sure how you switched to a townread on me based off of one post when I've made over a hundred posts that have actual content but if I squint, I can maybe get it. What I really don't get is you having Titan as a strong townread based off of

my

post. Clarify this for me.

I want to see you as town, especially when you make an effort to work with others but it feels like too little, too late and I feel like you are trying to get those votes. I make a post asking Tammy to stay in the game and suddenly you want to work with both us and Titan and have both slots as really strong town. You did waver in your townread a bit but I'm still having trouble understanding how you actually believed the stuff you posted early game.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Hey Brian, while you are still here, I'd like to hear your thoughts on meta-dive on DV. I also think a lot of what you are seeing as flat comes from DV's personality, as someone mentioned, he gives off a friendly vibe which can often be misinterpreted in mafia games if people consider aggressive = town, etc.

Their "sincerity-oozing" post wasn't really bad but that's not why I'm townreading them. I townread them because the way they are pushing their reads feels town and matches up with what I expect of DV as town.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

It is up to you if you want to look at his meta. My post was in response to your saying that you were wondering why people were townreading the Fox and the Hound and you seemed to want to discuss that read.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

@ Breakfast, I agree with most of your list. The only one I really disagree on is Rancid. I don't have GIF as a strong townread either but he is null. Cupcake is a strong townread for me. I am on the same page with the Beli head on MastinSSK so I think that's who we should lynch today especially since there is no one that both of you are reading as scum.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

It gave me pause but it is a Cabd game. I am going to try not to let setup-spec outweigh day play.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, if you are alive in LYLO (which you will be if you aren't lynched), it is an auto-loss, isn't it?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I want the noise to stop but would strongly prefer to not focus elsewhere. I am scumreading MastinSSK and AngryPidgeon with MastinSSK being the stronger read. I don't mind lynching AP and I don't rule out bussing or scum theater.

What I really, really don't want to do is turn two potential scum wagons into a deadline lurker town wagon and lynch PeregrineV.

I am strongly concerned that AP and Mastin are throwing out his name in the midst of their loud argument. That is a worst possible outcome I can imagine coming out of Day 1 where we let BOTH of them slip by and lynch PV.

So, yes, PLEASE stop spamming and burying the thread (I believe this is intentional on their part), but no I don't want to focus elsewhere. I'd like everyone to see Mastin and AP for the scum they are and vote them.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

We don't bus.

Except you are not really trying to get AP lynched the way you tried to get our slot or the Fox and the Hound lynched. You are just creating a noise trying to convince him that he is scum while telling him to start wagons on other people.

He responds by telling you to help him lynch PereV.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

F-16 can you list who you currently have as town and scum?

Sure. I won't do the townbloc/other town thing because in an ideal world, I'd work with all of the town.

Town (Strongest->Weakest)

:
1 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
2 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
3 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
4 Mac
5 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
6 Cupcake Panda
7 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
9 orcinus_theoriginal

<gap>

10 GuyInFreezer
11 PeregrineV
12 Lord Business
13 Clyton

Scum (Strongest->Weakest)

:
14 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
15 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK)
16 AngryPidgeon

Notes:
I really don't see GIF-town or GIF-scum but ffery-read influences that a bit and in any case, he is not getting lynched.
I don't have

great

reasons for thinking Pere is town. He just feels like a mislynch/lynchbait.
If MastinSSK flips scum, I think you should at least re-evaluate Rancid on D2 given his interactions with MastinSSK.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Sure. I won't do the townbloc/other town thing because in an ideal world, I'd work with all of the town.

In an ideal world it's possible to. :/

I sometimes take a super-inclusive approach to townblocking, but lately it hasn't worked out that well when I do. In fact, lately finding one or two players I feel like I can really work with on reads is doing pretty damn good.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I

am

effectively townblocking by working with a few players and am in sync with them like Titan/Fox/Kagura/JSU more than others but it is not set in stone and I am open to working with anyone that I think is town.

I think my biggest issue with the concept of townblocking by marking out a line is that it can sometimes divide the town. I've been in two games where it hapenned before and both times, it was difficult to get anything done. Fortunately, it hasn't happened here. I don't want there to be a situation where us/Titan/Fox/BRO-Desp all want to lynch one person and you/Mac/Kagura/GIF want to lynch another. The other issue is that people outside the townbloc can sometimes be easier to work with (for instance I delineated a townbloc in NY169 but Mara was easier to work with than say Generic who was scum there). The third issue is that by marking out a bloc, I'd essentially be emphasizing which players I'm

not

working with as opposed to the ones I am which again doesn't build an inclusive community to share opinions. I'm already working against the scum and I don't want to exclude half the town from working with me as well.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Let's please NOT wagon PV. I'll even bear the noise if it means one of Mastin or AP get lynched today but it would seriously suck to have all this scum theater end in a PV mislynch.

How does anyone else not see that through all the fog and the noise and the junk, Mastin and AP's main goal has been to get a lynch that is not them.

I'm going to head out but I'll try and articulate why I feel PV lynch is bad when I get back.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Independent scum reads on both of them.

Obviously, that's me speculating but it doesn't matter today. What I care about is we lynch one of them and not deadline wagon PV. I agree with you regarding PV. I liked the questions he asked me while tracking down my Cupcake read and it is something that I had left unexplained at the point he asked.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Obviously, that's impossible considering it is a loaded question.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

If you are town, we both have AP as scum. The only thing about my reads you disagree on is that I am calling you scum as well as one of your townreads. I don't think you are transparent enough to expect everyone to read you right. I also don't think disagreeing with you (or anyone else) on a read means that person is bad at the game.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Muffin, I am not going to convince you that you are scum. It is a pointless exercise/spam.

Let's assume you are town and I'll try to figure the game from there and see if it makes sense. Mastin-town. You don't disagree with the majority of my reads. AP and BRO/Desp are your scumreads apparently. Who else then? PV?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Yeah, reading them as scum-together kinda blew my mind.

What were your thoughts about their interaction?

---

@ Muffin, I am trying to work with you to see if I can make sense of the game with you-town and if you want to do that, I'm all ears. I am not going to make a case on you to "refute" and continue spamming up the thread.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I was trying to go through your iso and figure out your mastin read earlier today, F-16. It's not clear at all why you think she's scum.

It progressed through the pages:

1) My initial scumread - I don't think Mastin's push on us was genuine.

2) Later on, he pushed the Fox and the Hound even though their responses were incredibly genuine. His post about Ceph viewing him as a mislynch was bad.

3) His role takes away one town vote. Rancid's role requires one less vote to lynch. What do you think of that?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I don't think you realized how you came off in the early game, with the obvtown declaration on relatively thin soup, and how weakly supported your 180 on Titan looked. Probably the only reason I gave it the credence I did was because of your reaction test of me in 169, which also looked objectively weak to me, and raised some questions about your alignment that I harbored for a good while afterwards.

Yeah, I can tell when I make an "off" entrance that is my fault. I enter games in a variety of ways, sometimes well, occasionally badly. This was one of the latter times. There was enough information in the thread for me to have easily townread Titan when I entered the game but I didn't absorb all of it to develop a read. I only did upon being asked so that was an "off" note and I understood that the initial suspicion was justified. Also, Titan's push on me made them obvtown and it wouldn't have been incredibly productive to continue pushing. It was similar to my push on ETL in There is No Doctor where I instantly facepalm at myself and realize that the person was town all along. I think the suddenness of the realization makes it difficult for people to follow.

It would be much, much easier for me as scum to just say that Titan is town and leave it at that since if they are town, they would become obvtown anyways. I wouldn't want to develop an unnecessarily complicated read.

At this point, I think there is enough in the thread to realize that everything I am doing is to advance the town wincon even if it didn't originally become clear. I am developing and posting my reads and POE and arguing for lynches while keeping the noise level in the thread to a bare minimum by moving away from back-and-forths that I don't think will help or benefit the town. I also doubt I would pour this much genuine effort to work with not just a few players but with everyone.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, ffery I am not really seeing why you have trouble following my thought process or play in this game. Compared to Mastin, Muffin/Nati, and AP who have literally buried this thread under an avalanche of back-and-forths that bear no purpose to the thread other than make it difficult for the other players to catch up and post, I think the scum motivation is rather obvious here. Nati complaining about the game state and blaming it on me (and Titan) isn't something that actually makes sense considering he also commended Mastin and AP for their "brevity." Sure, he also commended you and your posts aren't noise by any means, but his overall representation of the gamestate is hugely off. Whether it makes him scummy is debatable but it is clear to me who has an interest in progressing the game and who is trying to bury it. Since you've been pretty cagey about your thoughts, I am not sure how you are viewing this game or where you are coming from and I'd like to see it. I also want to know if you think Nati's complaints about the game have any merit whatsoever considering the stuff he and Muffin are posting, and their choices in who and what to engage and how. At this point in time, you're the only player here that I trust has read every post written in this game and has read what I read and seen what I saw. What do you want to do with the rest of this day? How can we optimize the remaining time we have and help the town the most?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

You're talking about post 1158?

That post was not long after AP replaced in, and before most of the shit hit the fan.

I understood where he was coming from, but I also know how 169 was getting to him and killing his interest in the game at times.

I'm part of the problem, though, when it comes to the extinction of <30 page day 1s.

The thing about 169 is that I could tell that Maraca were a bad push even as I pushed them. That's why I jumped off so easily. Me and Mara/Cabd both got too involved in pushing each other and I could see why Nati would say that my posts were bad at that point because the overall push was just bad from both sides. But I don't any of my pushes in this game were "bad" or something I would regret and apologize at endgame for. I get the 180 on Titan but it is what it is and I explained it as well as I could and it is up to others to figure it out.

Nati and I didn't have any trouble bouncing thoughts off of each other in later days in 169 either.

I didn't understand where he was coming from in Post 1158. It didn't make sense to me. What's the background, i.e. where is he coming from with regard to this game?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

the extinction of <30 page day 1s.

That wasn't as in-depth as I hoped but okay. If I stretch, maybe I can buy he wanted numerically lower number of posts and were complaining about the most prolific posters. But what's the big picture? Why are Rancid town?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

CF, I don't remember if you ever said what specific impressions changed when you reread Tammy - what posts you reinterpreted, etc. If it's in your iso could you link it?

I am going to spoiler my response to cut the walls. Feel free to skip if you are not ffery.

Spoiler: ffery

Look, if you are trying to sort me, I'll help you out. I don't really think you understand how I play this game nor are you making an effort to. (Well, I think you are town and are making an effort to read me obviously but you are going about it in a way that isn't going to reveal my alignment.)

I don't make bad or sub-optimal plays as town. I sometimes overlook things that are clearer to me on a re-read. Like the read on Titan. I overlooked it the first time but when I re-read the same information a second time, I found alignment revealing info. I'm happy to explain this and work with you on it even if it means I am doing this for the fourth time in this game if I at least saw some effort from you in moving the game forward as opposed to a complete lack of reaction to my asking how you are reading Rancid as town, and to how you think we can best make use of the rest of this day (which I am surprised you ignored). I probably will end up doing it anyways at some point.

My reaction test in NY169 wasn't objectively useless. I probably won't try it again because it is atypical of my playstyle. And if you really want to know the difference between your town and scum reactions to handling disagreements in reads, you are more evasive as scum, but confrontational as town. That's why I interpreted your refusal to work with me in Micro 252 as you being scum, and the same thing in NY169 as you being town. I guess you could fake it but it ties more into circumstances. It is like you said towards the beginning of this game about Bork. A lot of things can be faked but the entire situation needs to be considered. I can tell why it is difficult for us to work together this game because the pushes I made so far are to some extent reactionary - accusing people based on a conflict I had with them as opposed to doing it in an "unbiased" third party view. I understand your general condescension towards anyone that pushes players in that way and if I played in the way I played in HPCOS for instance, I assume you'd be happy to sync on reads. But play depends on the gamestate and I get reads of varying strengths when I get them.

In any case, the things you are looking for that you believe that I do as town (develop townblocks off of other players reads for instance) are not going to happen because I don't actually do that and those assumptions on your part stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of my playstyle. You mentioned before that you were looking for "parallels" to that here. Problem is, the parallels will be non-existent since they are not part of my playstyle. I already made a post explaining this but if you go hunting to see where I townblocked based on another players reads so you can put me as town, you won't find it because it came out of something you misinterpreted. And like I pointed out, my 5 strongest town reads on NY169 were based almost entirely off of my own reads.

Failing you realizing how to interpret my play, find someone who actually does understand my play or syncs up and works with me smoothly and easily and ask their opinion. Nacho for example is a good candidate for that because he knows my playstyle incredibly well, better than anyone else on this site. Tammy does too and we have a fairly good understanding of how we get our reads and how we can sync. Even Beli probably has a more in-depth understanding of my playstyle from the one game we played together, we worked fairly well together and eliminated three scum in three days for a perfect win.

If you want to read me by yourself, you are going to need a paradigm shift in how you approach my play. You can't excuse my shift on Titan because you apparently think it is an objectively bad play and that you thought something else was objectively bad play in NY169 and therefore I could be town here. The problem being that they aren't objectively bad plays. I told you in NY169 why Casso was scum and you pretty much dismissed it there as well, presumably because you thought they were objectively bad reasons?

I am pretty certain at this point that the model you have for my play is hilariously inaccurate and wrong. Even if you correctly read me as town, it feels more like you are reading me as town for the wrong reasons and co-incidentally got it right. I am not town because I made a play you disagree with. I am town because of the massive amount of content I produced in this game, my activity level (yes, it IS that simple sometimes, I lurk as scum), my genuine and non-stop effort to get this town on track and work with people to secure an optimal lynch. I am town because of how much my actions and analysis help the town, how conscious I've been to reduce the amount of noise in this thread, and how much serious, serious effort I've put into solving this game. That's why I am town. Could I fake it? I am meh as scum but not terrible. I could fake a few things. I could fake a meta-dive. I could fake frustration. I can scum-theater with my buddies. But I just don't have the same drive, the same passion, and the same unwavering determination to win the game.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm about to head to bed. Ffery, I'll get to your post later.

Mac, "so much fucking noise" is sort of the reason I haven't produced a case on RBD. I didn't intend to get them lynched today so what's the point in creating additional noise. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I

could

have produced an unnecessary case to which you might have responded with "so much noise" but pick one. There will not be a noiseless case. Also, do you really think you can be convinced to vote RBD? I don't think you are but I may be mistaken, correct me if I am wrong.

I'll make a case if I intend to get a player lynched. I am still thinking things over on whether I want to push an RBD lynch today.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

No I won't be convinced in the slightest

Then I see zero value in making a case. I am not going to make a case for your entertainment.

I make cases to push for lynches.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Actually Mac, why are you so hung up on making a case to the point where you take the lack of one as a scumclaim? You just said that you can't articulate what it is you find scummy about our slot. So, by your logic, I should assume that you have nothing and that it is a scumclaim?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Where did I say that I had a case that I refused to post?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

That's fine if you misread. But it basically comes down to you trying to get me to articulate a gut read. I'm not sure where your issue is. Help me figure it out.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Was that Brian or NotScience?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I really need to get to bed as well. Someone quote Mac's post where he voted me and tell him he is bad and should feel bad for voting someone because they didn't make a case and restore my faith in humanity.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

And yeah, I figured the above was Brian, never mind.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I wasn't really sure when to come out with this but I am going to post it now:

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

We are counterclaiming Rancid Broderick Drake as a miller.

Here is our full role claim:

1) Our character name is Luke from Tales of the Abyss.

2) We are a town replica.

3) We return as "replica" to all cops.

4) We also have an ability to set up neighborhoods. Each day, we send the name of a mothership title (like Tales of the Abyss) to Cabd and he sets up a neighborhood for all the people in that title. For instance, we sent him "Tales of the Abyss" today and he set up a neighborhood for us, BRO-Desp, Nacho-Bork, and GIF. (This is the reason why I haven't interacted with Nacho in thread and I figured ffery/others would pick up on it). Based on the interactions in the neighborhood, I am massively confident that BRO and Desp are town.

-- Moving on, reasons for why we are counterclaiming now as opposed to earlier.

I honestly wasn't sure whether RBD were gambiting with their miller claim or were serious. It only slowly started to sink in at some point that they were serious about it. I was also certain enough about Mastin being scum that I was fine with a Mastin lynch followed by RBD locking themselves into a gladiate with BRO-Desp and then counterclaiming them. As it turns out, we seem to be headed toward a mislynch one way or another. I am not really sure at what point I realized that RBD were serious about their claim and re-read our role realized we had the same role. But on an initial read, I sort of skimmed through and didn't really register that we were a miller.

We claimed in the neighborhood. Only BRO-Desp were online and responded to it.

So, basically

RBD is scum

. We are counterclaiming their role. This is not a lolgambit. I don't do those. Whether or not you believe this was the optimal time to claim is always going to be debatable. I am happy to answer questions but this is going to be a 1v1 with us and RBD.

I expect other questions like why we were tunneling Mastin as opposed to RBD: I was sure he was scum. Initially we thought RBD were gambiting so didn't pay attention. Later, they claimed they would gladiate BRO-Desp so were biding our time hoping to get another scum read lynched while they lock themselves into a gladiate with an outside player (us) counterclaiming them assuring their lynch. Any other questions, we'll answer as we see them.

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

[CarbonFiber]

Oh, also there was no need for us to rush into cc'ig RBD. If we die and flip, they get hanged so it is not a like a cop guilty where we have to out it before we die.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Ugh, I am terrible at not letting mafia interfere with rl. I kept my laptop with me in bed last night and kept posting till 5AM in the morning. I have classes and stuff to go to today and I'll re-read the last 5 or so pages tonight in detail.

I don't get why people are seeing both us and RBD as town. I strongly recommend we lynch them. I'm "if they flip town, lynch/vig us" confident.

Because AP once put two millers in a game doesn't mean it happens regularly or that the counterclaim should be dismissed. It is very, very rare.

Muffin claims he is going to flip "Sworddancer, town battleseeker" where I am claiming we will flip as "town replica."

Look at the scum role PMs on the first page. They all contain the word replica. We're a replica because our character is supposed to be one, but is somehow town in this game.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

We're NOT doing a compromise deadline wagon when there is a counterclaim.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Because we are going to be in the same position tomorrow except with a bad deadline (most likely town) lynch on our hands. There is no

need

to find a deadline compromise wagon.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

So you expect to be alive tomorrow.

Yes. I don't expect to be nk'd. But if in the event that we were, the neighborhood would have outed our role.

Elaborate on "replica." What does that exactly mean you are a town replica?

See the scum role PMs at the beginning of the game. They are all replicas. Our character Luke is one of them and hence we return "replica" to all cops which is basically an elegant way of saying "miller."

f-16, kagura is currently voting PV and you're pretty vehemently against that lynch.

That doesn't appear to have impacted your read of them. But, now I"m very curious about your thoughts regarding Nacho's reasons for thinking PV is scum. As well as curious about the details of his read, but he hasn't been around to discuss them.

Nacho didn't say anything about PV in the neighborhood. When he voted PV, I had no opinion of him. I liked PV's posts that he made after Nacho's vote.

We still thinking both are town.

Beli wonders if lynching one makes sense purely to cut down on the noise going into day 2, and would lynch RBD over F-16 because of the gladiate being more likelly anti-town.

I'd rather not lynch either atm.

Listen to Beli? Look, this isn't an AP game and you know better than I do that AP is a "mindfuck" type of mod who would put two millers in the game to screw with people's heads. You also know better than me that Cabd is much, much more elegant. While his roles are complex, it is highly, highly unlikely he'd just stick two millers into a game.

I get your townread on both of us but think about who else it could be. You seem to have no scumreads. We could find the lurkiest, least town player that we find and lynch them as a deadline compromise or we face the fact that scum are among the more active players. Let's say we lynch Pere or LB. We're back at the same spot tomorrow with RBD and us going at each other. Lynch them, we'll be basically conf-town. There is much more utility in doing this.

Also, F-16 talk to me about your LB read.

The way he initially approached Titan and his direct and forceful tone made me lean town. He faded out a bit which made the read slightly stale. I still think RBD is the better lynch.

Look, I agree with you about LB being probably town and with Beli about PV being town. Scum are most likely Mastin/Rancid/AP/someone else and they are all vehemently arguing against lynching either of us so they can nail down a compromise lynch today and delay this for tomorrow.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm only open to lynching Rancid or Mastin. PV's not getting lynched.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

There are NOT two millers in the game ffs Brian.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Hey Brian,

Vote RBD. If they are not scum by role, they are scum by play.

If they flip town, lynch/vig us.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, RBD is HATED which means we don't want them around in LYLO. Why is everyone hardcore defending a scummy player that should be policy lynched for being hated that just got counterclaimed as a miller?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

You can die tomorrow after RBD. Also, laying yourself on the line for a hated townie claim is rubbish.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Also, RBD is HATED which means we don't want them around in LYLO. Why is everyone hardcore defending a scummy player that should be policy lynched for being hated that just got counterclaimed as a miller?

~ F-16

F-16, look past the role. Look at the play. And look at other zmuffin town and scum games. You know, that meta stuff you do. Tell me how their play looks like their scumgames. Convince me. I don't think you can, but you absolutely won't convince me on the basis of you both being millers.

Why are you this obsessed about lynching the person you're counterclaiming in a fucking CABD game?

Nothing that Muffin has posted in the thread is a genuine effort to solve the game. His primary purpose in the game is browbeating everyone who scumreads MastinSSK. Him, Mastin, and AngryPidgeon make the most sense as a scumteam.

Muffin as town is actually useful to the game. See Cash Cabd, he was incredibly obvious town there.

Also, why are you against voting a hated claim? They ought to be lynched at some point before LYLO. With them alive, we have one less lynch.

Nati's posts are nothing like his play in NY169 where he was genuinely trying to work with players and solve the game. Like it's that obvious, I don't know what to tell you or how to convince you and I don't know even if I can and I don't know if anyone can. You are not a player that uses reasoning to refine reads. It is more of a "

have you read this player correctly before

" type with you. I explained why Casso was scum or at least not town in NY169. Your response was to say that you believe Mara's and Sakura's townreads over my scumread because they have experience playing with Nacho never mind that the don't have the accuracy that I did.

I made a huge long rant about your play but I decided to delete it. You have more experience with Nati so nothing I say is going to convince you. So, I guess I'll wait for Nacho to come and knock sense into you because whether or not you are convinced depends more on who is making the argument as opposed to whether they make a persuasive case. So, yeah, I am not going to bother.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, you are confusing two alternate scenarios:

1) The most likely one: RBD is scum - lynch him.

2) The much less likely one: RBD is a hater town miller. Hater claims ought to be lynched because they give town one less lynch if they are alive anyways.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

* hated

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, are you actually serious with the whole "I need to look over the claims" shit? I am pretty obviously town here and I am cc'ing RBD. Not sure what your confused about.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, are you actually serious with the whole "I need to look over the claims" shit? I am pretty obviously town here and I am cc'ing RBD. Not sure what your confused about.

~ F-16

Serious as I can be!

Needing to look over the claims doesn't mean I suspect you, it means I want to look over the claims to see what makes sense. I'd be completely shocked if you were scum here pulling this, but that's not my point. I believe you believe he's the scum you're counterclaiming, but I'm not sure he's scum.

I don't really know why you're giving me a hard time about wanting to look back at things though. I mean some people give me a hard time for being too careful and reviewing things to make sure it all makes sense, but I don't know why you would.

I'm sorry. I guess I was playing this game at a faster pace than some others and didn't realize that you were still trying to make sense of the whole thing. I guess what I am trying to say is that even if players aren't entirely convinced he is scum, he is still a better lynch than a deadline wagon or a no lynch. I don't want to get into a mentality of "let's make absolutely sure Rancid is scum and if we are not 100% sure, we'll lynch PV." Because the other side of the equation doesn't make sense either because if you are setting that standard for RBD, you ought to set it for any player you lynch. This is more for the rest of the town, I don't know if you in particular have any scumspects in mind.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Why did you think a miller neighborizer was unlynchable in this game?

I wasn't actually soft-claiming with the "we're not getting lynched." I was looking forward to playing in a Cabd game for a while and it came when I was relatively freer irl so I was going to give it everything I've got, be active and not fall behind. It is more that I intend to give maximum effort into the game, enough to be easily readable as well.
~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Why did you think a miller neighborizer was unlynchable in this game?

Also, please catch up soon and let's co-ordinate a lynch which doesn't suck even if it means RBD is not getting lynched today. Like MastinSSK or AngryPidgeon.

At this point, I feel Pere's posts are pretty obviously town. That leaves {GIF, Clyton, LordB} as the only people I am not strong townreading as the final partner to Mastin/Rancid/AP.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

No, it's been a while since either said anything in there.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Paranoia theory:
There is no neighborhood for today.
The claimed neighborhood is entirely made up of scum.
/AP.
(Because this is totally AP's type of theory to make.)

Does this explain CF's avoidance to my requested demands? Even a simple no would suffice.

Sorry, I forgot to respond. I'll use it in the best way I see fit. I'm considering asking a strong townread to claim their title D2 so that I can activate a neighborhood for everyone in their title (I won't be in it).

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - Can you tell me why Lord Business's first post to me rang as town to you?

Mostly gut and tone. He just seemed really forceful. I am not as sure now because I am still trying to reconcile whether he faked it but the reason for faking was because he wanted to hide his alt as opposed to hide his affiliation. He is one of the only people who is not a strong townread. What do you think?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I get why you think it is off for me to read him as town because you don't think that I should consider it above the level of stuff that he can fake. But the thing is, there is a very specific way he attacks players and backs down from them that is difficult to articulate and pin down.

Do you remember in NY169, you went inactive for a while, and I called you and asked to discuss my scumread on him initially in the game and asked about your thoughts based on the VisCon game? I had that feeling then. I later pushed it to the back of my head but I know the feeling I had and why and it didn't raise those same alarms here. I am not strongly townreading him. At the time I made the read, it was early in the game and it felt somewhat townish. But now, he is probably the weakest, nullest townread if that makes sense.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

As for the lack of suspects, I am feeling surprisingly confident on where the scumteam is: MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, and one of {Clyton, LordB, and maybe Yggrdra Union but I don't think so}.

[CarbonFiber]

Will get to the rest in a bit after combing through the pages I skimmed but Yggdra Union is holy fuck town.

Ffery, I'm sorry about shutting you down earlier. I guess the problem was that I was initially being patient and trying to work it out but didn't feel like I could get anywhere but then you showed a willingness to work with me just when I stopped caring. I'll go over your posts and reset and restart again so we can talk about our viewpoints of the game. My updated reads once you include PereV and Yggdra as strong town are that there are four scum among these five players {Rancid, Mastin, AP, Cltyon, LordB}. I am fairly confident on the first three. I think the last scum is one of Clyton or LordB through POE.

I am not sure where you stand on Mastin right now. I could at least get your unwillingness to lynch Rancid but to get Mastin off the hook as well based on that is feels like putting two scum off the table. I agree with Beli on his Mastin read and I actually he made very, very good points about Mastin that I wasn't able to make myself. Let's face it, you have no scum reads but someone has to be scum. If you can show me at least a few players that are actually scum, it would be nice. At this point, you are looking at the lurkers - to lynch the least town player in the game (which is probably PereV and I just don't think he will flip scum. Again, I agree with Beli's view as he was reading things quite similar to me pointing out that PV is lynchbait and there is like a miniscule chance he will flip scum.

I am not arrogantly arguing that my reads are better. On the contrary, I think you are a good enough player to be a massive enough threat to scum that scum would be trying to do everything they can to hit the right notes with you because a single misstep could cost them the game. It is harder to tell when someone is scum if they are specifically appealing to you and I've been in the same situation before if I am in a playerlist where scum would consider me their biggest threat. If you are unmoving on Rancid for today, at least consider MastinSSK. Lynching a random lurker that I am pretty confident won't flip scum just sucks and we start over tomorrow with possibly the best townies dead and the scum in a stronger position. Also, AP is a great choice for a lynch as well. I am not going to provide reasoning for Rancid as scum if it is not going to convince you, but Yggdra/Pieguyn is also on the same page and I think we should consider that as well as they are really, really, really obvious town. Me, BRO, Desp, Pieguyn all agree that Rancid is town and that's why I think you should maybe reconsider that Nati was specifically appealing to you as opposed to any of the rest of us. Even if you are so confident, at least don't take his word that MastinSSK is town and lynch Mastin. Mastin's scumflip (which I feel pretty confident on) might be cause for a reset.

~ F-16 (FT seems to have checked out of this game so until he returns (if he does) all posts are going to be mine)