Tales of You (Endgame)

[MastinSSK]

Hi all.

Rancid Broderick Drake is beyond obviously scum or at worst anti-town. We can already see this through a plethora of traits.

First off. the username.

Look at the word Rancid. It has a negative connotation. But why exactly? I like cheese, let's use cheese. If there was rancid cheese, what would you do? Toss it out. Because it's bad.
Case and point right there.

But it gets worse. We can look at Broderick as being another main indicator of how much they are anti-town. For Broderick consists of two parts "Bro" and "Derick". Now I don't know who Derick is but they are buddying to him as much as they possibly can from the get go! We should all look forward to this Derick as the sake of town and only see the sheeping, buddying anti-town nature of RBD.

But then Drake. Drakes aren't cool anymore. Why use that in a username? That's reason enough to vote them right now.

But if you can't see any of that, here's a couple of actually realistic predictions for how this game is going to go for these guys:

Nat and MuffinZ are going to self-vote in the very first post. But they're not going to do so in a traditional way.
No. The amount of synergy that they have will lead to an aggression. They are going to be questioning everyone. But they're never going to actually vote. They're never going to actually give real reasons for any votes they have. And they're going to get away with it because they're aggressive and because they're charismatic.

For all of these reasons, I can see nothing but a firm Day 1 lynch of
VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

[MastinSSK]

Oh, dear sweet christmas.

~Copper

Hi!

[MastinSSK]

hi guys

this post is town.

[MastinSSK]

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

Yeah. True. Or we could find MuffinZ (who hint is most cunning manipulator) also by page 5. And also by wagoning. Just join me!

Was that mastin or SSK btw

Does it matter?

[MastinSSK]

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

Yeah, but if we find out that she's scum apparently we'll just proceed to not lynch her for some reason.

Mind linking the reference?

[MastinSSK]

Yes, it does.

My goal this game is to figure out which of

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin) drew town role pms.

So by answering that simple question you could in fact help me solve the game that much earlier.

Or we can pretend I don't know it's mastin because if SSK ever made a post that long I think ms would freeze over, so there's that.

I'm also a bit too chickenshit to vote Nati.

pedit- I want the reference too. I want to sort Tammy as fast as possible.

All of these posts have been SSK. My playstyle has changed a lot since Januaryish. I just don't play a lot anymore.

But come on, vote Nat. He's already voted himself. His claim is ridiculous. Join us!

Yaaar, we be a hated miller age cop gladiator!

I dare ye treeweasels to counterclaim!

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

I wish more people would. I cannot in the life of me ever seeing this actually being a thing. But even if it is, any and all miller claims on balance should be policy lynched.

[MastinSSK]

beliffery is quite mellifluous. I approve.

No idea what that means. I'm going to assume that means you think they're town. I agree.

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

Yeah, but if we find out that she's scum apparently we'll just proceed to not lynch her for some reason.

Mind linking the reference?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=36665
Not anyone's finest hour.

Looks like a fun game. I wish this hydra had joined that game.

But I also don't see how that has anything to with Tammy being discovered as scum in early game? It looks more like a typical RVS?

I'm saying here, we could change that. You just have to vote RBD.

[MastinSSK]

What the fuck

Okay mastinssk can be town.

ONE DOWN FIFTEEN TO GO

Sweet! Thanks man! Always appreciate the town vote!

Red Gyarados, why did you feel the need to pretend that wasn't an obvious mastin post? I assumed you were joking in the first place.

Still not a Mastin post. Being completely honest here when I'm saying that all these posts have been SSK.

Red Gyarados, why did you feel the need to pretend that wasn't an obvious mastin post? I assumed you were joking in the first place.

I actually wasn't sure (yes, I realize the cogdis) seeing as I know there's a Nati/SSK dynamic that always happens. I attributed that type of post to said dynamic, but leaned more to it being mastin for the same reasons you obviously have.

Interesting. Why do you think I, as SSK, would not evolve the dynamic to such a post as that? And what do you think of it?

[MastinSSK]

I don't think there is anything you can possibly do to convince me that you're SSK.

I could crank out a paragraph about cheese? I could make all the posts about cheese.

[MastinSSK]

Can you rephrase the first question?

I thought it looks pretty atypical of you and Nati in games together. I have to go check the way you two interacted early in street racers, but the fact you keyed in on him felt good (yes, I realize scum-you would do the same)

pedit-

PLAY ALONG WITH IT AND IF THEY RECANT THEN WE LYNCH THEM FOR LYING

LAL works in cabd games right

Street Racers. Right. That game existed.

[MastinSSK]

I've never known
mastin to talk about tone
shouldn't that hydra know
that is my show

That's funny. That's nearly all of what I talk about.

btw Mastin will now actually be getting on this account.

PEDIT: RIGHT MASTIN? RIGHT?

[MastinSSK]

Spoiler: Now on the right account

Yo.

Mastin, here. I'm here to kill you all.

*Save you. SAVE you all.

...Crap.

(Out of hydra post for ego...and 'cause I lost the hydra password. I need to ping SSK for him to remind me.)

Anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...

-I'm still waiting for SSK to re-send me our password. (The problem is that he sent it to me over site chat originally, and that site chat log has been lost, meaning I no longer have it.)
-Until then, I'm hoping that the mods are okay with me posting out of hydra; I'll quote them all once I can. (Well, SSK probably will beat me to it.)
-But I did get our role PM, so I'm not playing blindly. With that in mind...

Yaaar, we be a hated miller age cop gladiator!

I dare ye treeweasels to counterclaim!

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

The sad thing is that I can equally see this being a scum joke, a town joke, a scum serious fakeclaim, or a town serious roleclaim.

Let's say town for the heck of it*.

Wait a minute. Wasn't mastin in that game >.>

As scum, yes. Cruised to an easy win.

I've also obvtown'd like 5 times before post 30, you're all welcome. Reach outs may commence at your earliest convenience.

We're town, you're town, let's lynch some scum.

I don't think there is anything you can possibly do to convince me that you're SSK.

Not even this?

In case anyone was wondering, RG are townish for posts 16 and 24. And because I modded FE Awakening and am pretty sure this is notscience.

This might actually be scum, though.

Holy bleep, they actually ARE scum.

Hello everyone. I am You.

VOTE: Clyton

Could be town, could be scum, lean towards scum.

What from post 20 made you think MastinSSK is town? I personally don't see it.
-FT

Bluntly, if you can't see it, then you're probably scum. Like, I didn't even have our role PM and I could tell SSK was town. (Granted, I needed to be absolutely sure, butyeah.)

Those are some complicated sample PMs.

This IS scum, though.

*Actually a little bit more than for the heck of it. I have a very, very good reason to believe the claim. I'll talk to SSK about how we'll handle that.
/is most certainly not a VT this game, and not ashamed to admit it.
(Through three.)

Derp. Through two, not three.

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

good point

tammy needs to town it up quickly

vote titan

vote titan

Hi!

VOTE: kagura

Okay here's what I need from you guys. Nacho, if you're town I need to feel it. Alternatively, Bork you can obvtown up your slot ASAP please. I will stay with you, but if you value my sanity at all (and if you're town you should!), you will please just do this for me.

I briefly skimmed the first couple pages, notscience here's an awesome town tell for me. I literally just woke up, and the first thing I did was log in to this game. Though I'd love to stay and goof off I've got to go to work.

This actually feels like a scum entrance into the game. Like...I guess it's the tone? The last post isn't the type of friendly banter from town trying to scumhunt a player they know and respect; it feels like scum forcing their way into getting towncred by being confrontational and trying to make it look like town. The earlier posts also feel fake, and honestly, really not liking those self-votes.

If this is for real, this might affect us.

I'm quite certain it'd affect us.

As I said, bouncing how to handle things exactly off of SSK. Butyeah.

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

I'm not seeing a town attitude towards demanding people prove they are town for the benefit of their mental state. Seems both forced and trying to stay in the upper hand.

What is this, an AP alt? (Stop stealing my thoughts before I think them!)

I do vaguely agree with Mac being townish, though not overwhelmingly so. (Yet.)

/4. Gotta go, briefly, so be back in a moment.

I actually think you're town.

Well, duh. That's 'cause you're scum and they're not on your team!

(Non-arrogant answer: They've already made themselves obvtown.)

I don't really get his entrance about RVS voting when at the time we were out of RVS.

Eh, it looks vaguely townish.

And no I'm not omgusing before anyone accuses me of that BS. But I do not believe for one second Town!Mastin makes those posts. I just don't.

Uh-huh. Sure you aren't. Sure you believe it.

My meds apparently aren't quite as effective as they're supposed to be, because bluntly, there's an extreme feeling that doesn't even feel like arrogance that both SSK and I, separately, are obvtown in our own ways. And that it seriously can't be more obvious.

(Admittedly, my posting has a flaw:
Slightly too many scumspects. Gimme a sec to sort 'em.)

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
^Already obvtown.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
^Thinking scum. (Not absolutely sure.)

3 Yukari Yakumo
^I'm just gonna say POE town 'cause screw it, too many scumspects.

4 orcinus_theoriginal
^Let's just call him town for the heck of it.

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
^Not feeling the townness.

6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
^Certainly feeling the townness.

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
^Also feeling townness. Strength yet to be determined.

9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
^Heck if I know, but let's just assume town for the time being.

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
^Could be scum, quite easily.

11 Lord Business
^AP Alt. (But town.)

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
^Eh, need more for surez, but an apt title; they're probably town so I'll probably be sheeping them.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
^Probably my strongest townread.

14 Cupcake Panda
^Scumread, strength to be determined.

15 PeregrineV
^Vaguely townish.

16 Clyton
^Vaguely scummish.

17 Mac
^Decently town, but not strongly so.

I'll see about making a list later. (Am multitasking quite severely.)

Yep, five scumreads. Four

might

be possible (especially given a stronger town, which I can already tell we have), but five? Heck no; I need one or two less.

Fox/Titan/Carbon are stronger reads than Cupcake/Clyton.

(And, yes. Fully aware of the arrogance. I don't know why. That's the thing my current medication is specifically meant to counter. But it's there all the same. That feeling that, yes. I'm on the right track. In spite of the fact that all logic says "stop being so arrogant", there's that

feeling

that I'm actually not wrong on these. Of course I'm not flipping the switch, though.)

Then she lets us know she did, in fact, get her role pm.

I asked for it specifically.

Her response to CarbonFiber that if he didn't see SSK was town then he's scum because she knew SSK was town before she got her role pm.

Yep! I could tell our slot was town before I got the PM. Asking for the PM was basically just a formality,

just

in case we were actually scum. (Playing blind as scum is extremely frowned upon. So

just

in case I was wrong, I needed it.)

Then he called my post confrontational with Nacho and Bork.

Because it was confrontational. You were confronting him. That's what the word means. It was the very LACK of friendly banter that set off the alarm bell. Like...I know you play with Nacho a lot. But your response? Wasn't the type of...whimsy?...I'd expect from town-not-knowing-alignment; it seems like scum-wanting-to-make-good-impression. Specifically BECAUSE Nacho'd expect it. Like...that same post made with a different tone/approach/angle would be town, but the way you did it felt...

off

.

I don't think for one second that she disrespects Nacho's ability in mafia so much that she thinks that Nacho would be swayed by me saying he'll see I'm town from my first post and call me town if he didn't feel it.

Not exactly sure I understand, but basically...yes? I respect Nacho's abilities. I don't think him townreading you would be the correct read, in spite of his otherwise-accuracy in reading players.

And I don't believe for one second that she actually believes my first post was emotional blackmail. She's played in enough games with me, as town and as scum, to not even entertain that.

Except past games with you is specifically why that post pinged me. It didn't feel like Tammy-town. At all.

From someone who seems to be so interested in/obsessed with 'tone' (which by the way is a really mercurial idea at this point, what do you even mean by that mastin?), to boot. I'm not sure how anyone could read your vote there as serious, nevermind someone even peripherally aware of the way you play mafia.

Tone was the problem. The self-vote was fake. The following post from the different head far too confrontational. (And, yes. I can't think of a better term, because it really was a confrontation. A direct challenge to Nacho. If that's not confrontational, what do you

call

confrontational?)

I don't think I could tell the difference between what Mastin just did and what she might have done if she was told who to suspect by a random number generator.

Odd. Both heads of yours have played with me before and know me just as well.

I needed to believe they were town, and I needed to believe they were town early. I wasn't confronting them, I was practically begging them to town themselves for me, so I wouldn't have to worry.

You're acting like these are different things.

Like I said. Different tone? Sure, not confrontational. But your tone? Was.

. I couldn't be more town in this game, and you obviously don't know or are pretending to not know what that looks like.

Except this? Is saying this.

Your game this game looks like it's meant to be an imitation of your towngame, rather than an actual towngame.

[MastinSSK]

mastin possibly trying to discredit
a nacho/tammy bond before it is made?

Nah. As scum, I sheep them both and keep on their good sides.

I've never known
mastin to talk about tone

Odd, considering it's been one of my signature methods since 2010.

[MastinSSK]

And, seriously. The Titan-Fox tagteam is just about as blatant as can be.

(Okay, that means I'm wrong on one. But still.)
VOTE: Fox and the Hound.
Actually stronger than Titan, in spite of my words.

[MastinSSK]

And no I'm not omgusing before anyone accuses me of that BS. But I do not believe for one second Town!Mastin makes those posts. I just don't.

See. It's this type of post that I talk about. Just look at this tone. But then there's nothing behind it! Bad, Titan, bad!

[MastinSSK]

(SSK, stop posting like me. It's MY job to imitate my hydra partners, not yours! )

[MastinSSK]

202 wasn't Mastin. >_<

[MastinSSK]

And no I'm not omgusing before anyone accuses me of that BS. But I do not believe for one second Town!Mastin makes those posts. I just don't.

See. It's this type of post that I talk about. Just look at this tone. But then there's nothing behind it! Bad, Titan, bad!

Bullshit mastin bullshit. You were in Tales of Vesperia where the entire scum team came after me and then claimed I was a rampant omguser when I identified their scum motivations. Nacho even accused me of omgusing and thought they were town and he did that to me in Tales of the Abyss as well when my case against scum got dismissed as omgus.

No, buddy, wrong head. But nice self-meta (with opinion added!) regardless.

[MastinSSK]

VOTE: Titan.

[MastinSSK]

No, not dissonance. Just us having decided a Titan wagon should go through.

[MastinSSK]

(Okay, granted, we're discussing that a bit. We really think she's scum, but I think a wagon on her going through might not be as productive as on others.)

[MastinSSK]

Expect the less arrogant half to have a post soon.

[MastinSSK]

Hey, look, it's a scumhydra thought process

No, actually, we have a very good reason for my wording.

[MastinSSK]

(SSK's going to kill me for all the 'crumbing I'm doing. )

[MastinSSK]

Butyeah. Might not get into synch, but both of us are largely thinking along the same general lines.

[MastinSSK]

the lass's words are curious
I'm gonna consult rquieux
but our vote is like gold
in the hands of the bold

Your vote sucks, and Nati would know that.

Couple of things here that really just aggrevate me, because I know you can do better to make yourself at least LOOK like town.
But no.
You begin by outright discrediting any reason for a vote that RBD has on you without actually defending yourself. But then it gets even worse, you're doing so by appealing to a head of a hydra. I'm tempted to say buddying, but no. I think it's a come back of Appeal to Authority. You're placing Nat as the only "reasonable" head of the hydra so that you can just discredit any post that they make because you could think it's not Nat.

That's an unreasonable standard to set. Those are reasons I just can't see this being a town post.

[MastinSSK]

Actually I don't like Mastin coming in and just town reading NachoBork as strongly. If Mastin is scum, then there's a good chance that that blatant town read and jump all over me for my first post means that they could be partners.

Actually, me turbotownreading Nacho is a scumtell of me and a sign that he's town. I don't turbotownread him when we're both scum; I let him take the helm on dictating our interactions. Because he's one of the only players who I consider to be a better scum planner than I am. (Where do you think I learned my technique?)

[MastinSSK]

We questioned NotScience's MastinSSK townread because nothing that SSK had posted until then was unfakeable.

In theory, sure, I guess not. In reality, I'm not sure how the heck there's any way anyone couldn't see the genuineness in SSK.

(For the record. Both SSK and I feel this post is off. Neither of us has a clue why. It just feels like...not townposting.)

[MastinSSK]

(For the record. Both SSK and I feel this post is off. Neither of us has a clue why. It just feels like...not townposting.)

SSK's theorizing a couple of things. One might have potential in his content. I'll hold off on commenting until I see more Carbon Fiber posts.

[MastinSSK]

snip

~ F-16

So while you describe all of your points in detail, you never really say anything solid. Mind elaborating on who you think are scum at the moment?

[MastinSSK]

Have you changed your play style so much in the past year or so that you've ditched your "I don't interact with my scum reads" thing?

Yep!

[MastinSSK]

(Uh-oh. SSK's reads are diverging from mine.)

[MastinSSK]

VOTE: Carbon Fiber.

[MastinSSK]

Ah, heck with it.
VOTE: The Fox and the Hound.

[MastinSSK]

(You'd be surprised how much wavering is going on. Not dissonance. All just me. )

[MastinSSK]

the lass's words are curious
I'm gonna consult rquieux
but our vote is like gold
in the hands of the bold

Your vote sucks, and Nati would know that.

Couple of things here that really just aggrevate me, because I know you can do better to make yourself at least LOOK like town.
But no.
You begin by outright discrediting any reason for a vote that RBD has on you without actually defending yourself. But then it gets even worse, you're doing so by appealing to a head of a hydra. I'm tempted to say buddying, but no. I think it's a come back of Appeal to Authority. You're placing Nat as the only "reasonable" head of the hydra so that you can just discredit any post that they make because you could think it's not Nat.

That's an unreasonable standard to set. Those are reasons I just can't see this being a town post.

AND you were in Attack on Titan AND Too Many Heads. Muffin can't really read me. He's the one who became less convinced I was scum in Too Many Heads while Nati was convinced I was scum. In Attack on Titan when Muffin was scum hunting me in the neighborhood and we got into our fight, Nati replaced in saw our interactions and declared me confirmed town and claimed we were now masons.

You're appealing to buzzword. If that was Nati to actually draw a link to a game in which he read me correctly and ignoring every reason why I'm town here is appalling. If that's a muffin vote, then okay, muffin can't really read me. But Nati can.

I never said one head is reasonable; I didn't make any qualifications for either head other than the Nati head can read me and the muffin head can't.

Wrong head again there. But once again, good job on the self meta. And also once again, great job on giving small examples.

But you should know a couple of things about Nat. For one, his reads are all off the cuff. You ask him to give a reason for a read and most of the time it'll be stuff that he just came up with. With his townread of you, in that one instance, I can nearly assure you that it was just luck. It happened to be good luck, but it was luck nonetheless.
Muffin, however, is also very skilled. It sucks that in that one instance he wasn't able to read you.
Experience builds knowledge though and you shouldn't be blaming this one instance on a weak appeal to authority.

Then you say though, that I'm just appealing to buzzwords and what I'm saying is meaningless. See. This again. You're discrediting for no real reason. Tell me: How is "Appealing to Buzzwords" bad? Because I don't see any reason as to why in that break.

But see, I think you're confusing what you actually said even though it's right above your post. You said that "Your vote sucks and Nati should know that". You do inherently give Nat a qualification when you place him as having a greater amount of knowledge out of the two heads. You are appealing to him because you are complimenting him. That's that.

Your post was scummy. Get over it.

[MastinSSK]

VOTE: Titan.

[MastinSSK]

I have more reads than I've been sharing thus far, but they're ephemeral enough to not be worth mentioning yet.

Every read is worth mentioning.

[MastinSSK]

Guh. Sorry, SSK.
VOTE: Carbon Fiber.

[MastinSSK]

first post ive read from you gj mastin

That's the second or third time I've done so, though. >_<

[MastinSSK]

Anyway, leaving. SSK's got ya 'til later tonight.

[MastinSSK]

Tammy will see me as obviously town as she's never yet been wrong. So you might as well find a better vote.

Odd that she hasn't, then, no?

(Also, worthy of note: there's one thing this game has in common with Vesperia: my role is such that I'm either never going to get or am going to get speedlynched the moment I claim it*. Sadly, I'm leaning towards the latter. Again. Let's just say it's the best role I could have but also the absolute utter total worst role I could have. Depending on the day. And in this game, it's more worse than best.)

*Also depends on the handling of the role.

I don't get where mastin's coming from at all regarding you being scum.

Mainly SSK's read at this point. On my end, I didn't like their posting; it felt artificial, and as I said, Tammy's post was bluntly put confrontational. She keeps insisting it was a polite request, but I see just an immediate face-to-face direct, well, confrontation (there's quite literally no other word to describe it) with Nacho to look good without actually being good.

I'm a real big sucker for her later more logical posts, though. Still suspicious, I guess, but it's not going to be my half pushing there. (I just won't stop SSK.)

Alright something to post for now as a response. RG, I ask you elaborate on your reasoning. What comparison do you have that you can use to compare to the posts I'm doing here regarding my authenticity? If you are uncertain about me being genuine, I can easily clear that up for you now.

On the other hand, I will be compiling and posting my full list reads very soon, and my opinion regarding the debacle between Titan and MastinSSK.

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

Clyton, I have no meterstick to judge with, only my gut. Your selfvote and then your response to Brian sounded artificial in nature. Like you were going through the motions (say, going to an ex's wedding and pretending you're happy for them)

My self-vote is a random vote as part of the RVS, and my response was all jokes and games until the /End JnG portion of my response post. This is because I realized the fact that MastinSSK is not fond of self-votes. Speaking of that, I forgot to unvote.

/Unvote

Now, continuing on, this is obviously not how I genuinely act, at least nothing compared to the outside sites where I played Mafia. I will not redirect the suspicion on myself, for I deserve it for such experimental meta actions. But do not misunderstand, I will not be bluntly giving a self-meta of myself. As stated before, I will let my actions speak for themselves, and I will let you and all the rest judge me accordingly to my actions.

This is town.

[MastinSSK]

Cupcake Panda (Katsuki) seems to not know a lot of people in this playerlist and is also a scumread. But, Mastin and Katsuki hydra'd together so that one is probably a joke.

None of my reads are jokes. Not even the ones on the players who haven't posted. ("...What." Yes, you heard it. Dead-serious townreads even on the players who haven't posted. Why? 'Cause I said so.)

I don't like the not trusting Nacho part in Post 146.

Oh, I trust Nacho, alright. I trust him to be competent, even. I just don't trust him to read Tammy, just like I don't trust Tammy to read you. (For what it's worth: I think there's only one scum between you two.)

Although everything I pointed out is possible for her to do as town, I think it is less likely than her manufacturing reads because of who she is reading as town and who she is reading as scum and the amount of information with which he developed those reads seems unlikely to be natural.

Uh-huh. Sure.

I do not like the posts,
Of the Fox and the Hound,
I would like to have them both,
Be put down at the pound.

So would I.
/leaving to do stuff.

[MastinSSK]

It could easily be something that they realized was a bad push.

To hell with that. I'll push whoever I dang-well please, lynchabilty be damned.

[MastinSSK]

@ Mastin, We played in Extra-terrestrial mafia and your posts sounded a lot different and involved. Why the change in demeanor when interacting with me?

Because there I was townreading your slot and here I'm scumreading it?

I am not sure which games he was referring to as sheeping you in post 197.

When will people learn that I don't really reference past games. (Except when I do.) Sheeping Tammy wouldn't be off of any past game, just my read of the situation and thinking, "Need to be on their good side."

[MastinSSK]

Like, seriously. ESPECIALLY in hydra-heavy games, I really don't reference the past; I reference the here and now.

[MastinSSK]

I would resort to option 2: using role abilities in helping us deduce the alignments of both of you.

Normally

, I'd strongly frown upon this tactic. It's typically a really, really bad idea to direct power roles to specific targets, 'specially when there's things like Godfathers, Commuters, Ascetics, or...*shudder*...hiders...that they could be, not to mention, roleblockers. As just a very, VERY small piece of the list. Like, normally, it's a Really Bad Idea^TM. But this game, it'd actually be ridiculously good. (I can't exactly give details without fullclaiming. Butyeah. In this specific circumstance, it'd become gamebreakingly powerful for us to be investigated. 'Course, I don't know the scum's power, so it's possible that it could be really bad if they can interfere. And even if the scum don't have a way to screw this plan over, it takes a LOT of trust on my end that I know what I'm talking about and am town making the request.)

There's LB, CF, Kagura and Mac

RG is a maybe-town read, But I do not like his play, And cupcake could be town but he'd, Be more in an area that's grey

Sure, I'll help. LB, Kagura, and Mac I all agree with, even though my Mac read is weaker. RG's a much stronger townread (NS can only make himself obvtown as town), and Clyton's also town. The problem is, there's a lot of legitimate concerns about Carbon Fiber. Cupcake also doesn't look like town to me.

But Ffery's hydra's a minor townread. (Overall fferyness just seems town.) Just Sheep Us is *probably* town. (Yes, a guess.) Orc, in spite of basically just stopping in to say "hello", is a decent townread, too. (Content

could

be strong scumplay, but I don't think so.) PV's a very minor townread. (His attitude is sending off all kinds of townbells.)

Fox/Hound and Titan I go back-and-forth on. Yukari's attitude

could

come from either alignment, but something tells me it's town.

That's the best I've got.

I mean, even if you don't think I'm a worthy crewmember, you'll probably like SSK better.

I feel like you're manipulating me now and maybe everything I was thinking was wrong and that might not even be fair because you might not but you're taking my side on this Mastin thing when you came in not exactly being sure about me until I pushed you and it's freaking me the fuck out right now.

Aaaaaaaaaaand, if you're town, you're going to feel like I'm scum, encouraging you, 'cause this is one of the main reasons Carbon Fiber's surpassed you on my personal scum list.

Titan, The Fox, and LordBusiness are probably town. I agree completely with Titan's analysis on Mastin. I was thinking literally the same things. Pretty sure F-16 agrees as well. Mastin showing way too much conviction for the positions she's taking - way over-the-top - which makes me think there is no thought process behind the positions.

Vote: MastinSSK

Especially stuff like this.

What does this have to do with you playing the game?

Because playing if I was scum without my role PM would be basically cheating, since I'd be playing as town without the bias of my alignment, essentially.

[MastinSSK]

So my meds really aren't working, but for a different reason; my mind's still racing, this time with creative juices.

Like, seriously. ESPECIALLY in hydra-heavy games, I really don't reference the past; I reference the here and now.

Remember this? Well, as it turns out, thinking more on this was a key breakthrough to the article I've been meaning to write since AP's game has been over. Not this, precisely, but basically, I discovered the fundamental human drive behind the forces I want to describe, loosely put as being our ability to intuitively pick up on correlations, even though we often erroneously make causations of said correlations. (In site terms, seeing meta but using it wrong.) So having that breakthrough means that I've finally got what I need to write a good, solid, powerful article. Which is where I'm disappearing to for a while.

I'll catch up on the game later; I wanna write this while the inspiration is at its strongest, so I don't forget.

(Also, side-note, but related to the article: what I said here isn't technically true. I figured out at the same time as the above that what I really do is reference people. Not games, as others using meta do. You see it from me all the time: I'll explain a trait I do as *alignment*, and how I see that trait in another player, and how that leads me to believe said player is *alignment*, in spite of them not being me. I'll also plenty of times, say, call someone an "alt" not necessarily because I think that they're that player in disguise, so much as it is that the playstyle of that player is in line with that of a more recognizable name: AP, Nacho, ffery, and the like. But what I'm really going to get at in the article is referencing the person as they are a person. For instance, Tammy is Tammy. Nacho is Nacho. I don't go "anything. fucking. goes." *coughcoughbroseidonyousoowemeonecoughcough*. I will describe a trait of the player, perhaps that they displayed from a game like Anything Goes, but not specific to it. And then when asked for elaboration, I will try my best to explain my thought process. Linking to a specific game makes that easier, because it's basically saying, "something akin to this", in that it lets people know where I'm coming from. Which is also why I frequently have trouble explaining it in terms people understand. Because people EXPECT there to be a specific game. But while the trait I'm thinking of might be strongest IN a specific game, it's not something that I call up easily.)

Soyeah, see you after I finish doing MD stuff.
(Yes, my priorities are skewed. I know.)

[MastinSSK]

Eh, I'll work on the MD post tonight.

Orc, in spite of basically just stopping in to say "hello", is a decent townread, too.

i'm sorry what??

Exactly what it sounded like? Your vote on ffery was basically your greeting. It felt town. Could come from scum, don't think it did.

Still paranoid of Carbon-Fox, by the way.

Feeling mastin town from stuff like #165 - it's entirely tonal but very close to mastin town I've seen (and the one I wish I would've seen in Vesperia)

Sure there's plenty to townread me for, but 165 was really a load of null. 141, 161, and 173 are probably the strongest examples from that time, and even they're not that strongly town.

This paragraph is just really bizarre. I wish you could stop with the "[player who has literally not posted] is town" crap, I'm trying to give you a fair chance here but that isn't helping. The cogdis of your read on PV is also disconcerting.

This is especially concerning.

That post
it blows

^

Something doesn't sit right with me about 436. Perhaps it's the repetition of the same point twice, but I've spent about 10 minutes trying to decide if it's coming from a town PoV or scum, and as of yet, I'm undecided.

Strongly leaning scum.

These really throw me off. MastinSSK is really flip floppy here, and I don't like it.

(Helpful hint, flippity-floppity reads are something I've never been able to successfully fake 100% as scum.)[/quote] (Elemental Hawk

might

be scum, but eh.)

Elemental's post rubs me the wrong way. They're basically calling F-16 scum because his opinions change as he reads and re-reads the game. Very superficial analysis, considering that F-16's changes in opinion are responses to developments in the game, to re-reading, and have been explained. The non-committal suspicion on MastinSSK is also terrible, especially when combined with the analysis on us. I get the feeling that MastinSSK + Elemental are partners from this alone.

-FT

Funny, considering I picked up the vibe that he's partners with you, given the above.

Point is, Elemental's basically doing one of those classic scum-tells -- calling Mastin + us scummy, but preparing to vote for us, not Mastin. Assuming Mastin is scum, Elemental is pretty much guaranteed scum.

-FT

The thing where you attack both your partner and the guy attacking your partner, but vote for the guy attacking your partner. Pretty sure it's a classic scum-tell, though it doesn't really matter. I'm not a huge believer in objective scum-tells. What I'm trying to say is that Elemental is scummy, and he's scummy cause his post was massive shit.

-FT

(This is also a bit hypocritical.)

Where the fuck and BROseidon and Desperado?

Valid question. Lean towards it not being a scumtell, though.

Hmmm if I'm reading something right with mastin, I don't know if I suspect them more OR if I should go lol cabd game could be town. By play they're scum, but there's a tiny blip that makes me wonder when he hints about his role.

Read by play, not by role.
*votes us*
...Get better at reading play, THEN read by play.

If you ask mastin it would be an example of stron scum play, therefore it was a town tell for orci. At least that's what I got from it.

No, basically, the hello strongly looked town; the only reason orc isn't a much stronger townread is that it could be Tales-orc. I think it's a town him; I'm not certain it's a town him.

I don't see the reasoning behind the mastinssk wagon.

The reason is because it's Mastin and SSK.

(Another helpful hint, you can differentiate legitimate wagons on me from not-right-and-maybe-scumdriven-wagons on me by that factor. There's actually solid reasoning that you just "get" for me being scum? I'm scum. You don't understand the wagon? That's because I'm actually town.)

[MastinSSK]

you don't get to tell me to get better at reading play while having me as a scum read.

I think it's possible you're the yin to my yang so to speak and that freaks me out, but cabd game so lol.

You're not a scumread anymore, you're just not a townread. (Yeah, that's new, I know.)

And I sincerely doubt that your role is a yin to my yang considering my role is kinda sorta both a yin AND a yang.

[MastinSSK]

Tammy, I am not manipulating you on your read on Mastin. I am being very transparent about my read. I think they are scum primarily because Mastin thinks I am scum. There are other supplementary reasons and other things that felt off but overall it fits in exactly what I would expect from scum-Mastin. I don't believe that his read on me is genuine.

If anything, Elementalhawk's posts read as manipulation. He picked up on a post that would resonate with you and attacked me based on it possibly subtly hoping you would agree with it. I am not being subtle about anything. I blatantly agreed with your initial read and I don't agree that backing off would make Mastin town. He had two suspects, you and me. He could easily have called you town so that you wonder if he is town while attacking our slot because we are more certain in our read and easier to attack than you.

~ F-16

I don't think it is impossible for him to have an incorrect read on me. The way he developed the read felt off. He initially read Titan and us as possible scum after seeing some people say that FT's first post looked off. Then he noticed Tammy's incorrect read on me and chose to capitalize on it. He also noticed Tammy's paranoia of me being manipulating after I blatantly tried to explain to her that Mastin's was scum and changed his read so that he had us as scummier than Titan.

He then townread nearly everyone else who would be influential in gathering votes (Rancid, ffery-beli, GIF, Orc, Nacho-bork, with a leaning town on you) for very poor reasons. His reasoning isn't solid and reads look like they serve a scum agenda. He's also being generally unreasonable about his read on us which doesn't make sense from my previous experience with Mastin as town and his push on us felt like he was trying to frustrate us into reacting badly as opposed to genuinely trying to engage us. But I am way too happy and upbeat in this game to let that get to me so he doesn't know what he is dealing with.

~ F-16

The tone here just doesn't feel like town-F16. I dunno why. That's ignoring the content which I'm intentionally skimming. Something about him just feels

off

.

@Mastin: it throws my shit off when the target of my townread subverts the reasoning I gave, especially if they're townreading me.

Gonna need to be more specific than that. I've scumread lots of people stronger people are townreading; not sure who specifically you're referring to.

Like I just don' t get your angle here.

I don't have one.

That's actually a pretty dang large part of the problem.

[MastinSSK]

I don't know why she chose to scumread Tammy initially other than WIFOM or cred for going after high hanging fruit.

Or because, y'know. I scumread her.

Her reads on other players also don't feel like they are genuine and feel opportunistic.

So tell me again how targeting stronger players in the game is in any way opportunistic. (Granted, you can make a case for me being scum off of that! 'Cause targeting stronger players IS something I do as scum.

[MastinSSK]

I too can quote a bunch of your posts and say your tone feels "off" but I can't explain why.

And you wouldn't be wrong.

This is like you are intentionally accusing me in a way that is impossible to respond to.

Awful lot of words for something that's supposedly impossible.

Butyeah. Wasn't made as a case. Was made as an observation.

I've never been more invested and more determined to burn the scumteam to the ground.

Sure you feel different. But in the more...ragey kind of way? More determined to, well, prove yourself, sure, yeah, but...not in the town way?

/is distracted. Mind's not exactly making much clarity right now.

[MastinSSK]

Small selection. Disclaimer: to varying degrees; some are barely there while others show it very strongly. Disclaimer2, yes I know not all posts are from one head, but I don't read individual heads as town that much; they blend together in my mind, and you asked for the ragey I see; seeing ragey from a partner and having you blend together means I see the ragey as being from you, if that makes sense.

Spoiler:

The tone here just doesn't feel like town-F16. I dunno why. That's ignoring the content which I'm intentionally skimming. Something about him just feels off.

Really Mastin? I too can quote a bunch of your posts and say your tone feels "off" but I can't explain why. This is like you are intentionally accusing me in a way that is impossible to respond to. My tone feels fine. I've never been more invested and more determined to burn the scumteam to the ground and you picked the wrong fucking game to try to mislynch me.
~ F-16

A scumread on Tammy isn't sustainable because scum who scumread Tammy with shit reasons generally wind up dead. I don't know why he chose to scumread Tammy initially other than WIFOM or cred for going after high hanging fruit. He has to figure out a way to back out of the scumread and pretending to see eye to eye with Tammy and her suspicion of me was a perfect opportunity considering he was already working up a scumread based off of FT's initial post.

More than that, his engagement with us after he scumread us doesn't feel like he is genuinely trying to determine our alignment. His reads on other players also don't feel like they are genuine and feel opportunistic.

It isn't uncommon for scum to all attack the same player. I don't think he is scum for voting us over

"someone else"

. I think he is scum because his read feels fake.

~ F-16

I don't think it is impossible for him to have an incorrect read on me. The way he developed the read felt off. He initially read Titan and us as possible scum after seeing some people say that FT's first post looked off. Then he noticed Tammy's incorrect read on me and chose to capitalize on it. He also noticed Tammy's paranoia of me being manipulating after I blatantly tried to explain to her that Mastin's was scum and changed his read so that he had us as scummier than Titan.

He then townread nearly everyone else who would be influential in gathering votes (Rancid, ffery-beli, GIF, Orc, Nacho-bork, with a leaning town on you) for very poor reasons. His reasoning isn't solid and reads look like they serve a scum agenda. He's also being generally unreasonable about his read on us which doesn't make sense from my previous experience with Mastin as town and his push on us felt like he was trying to frustrate us into reacting badly as opposed to genuinely trying to engage us. But I am way too happy and upbeat in this game to let that get to me so he doesn't know what he is dealing with.

~ F-16

Tammy, I am not manipulating you on your read on Mastin. I am being very transparent about my read. I think they are scum primarily because Mastin thinks I am scum. There are other supplementary reasons and other things that felt off but overall it fits in exactly what I would expect from scum-Mastin. I don't believe that his read on me is genuine.

If anything, Elementalhawk's posts read as manipulation. He picked up on a post that would resonate with you and attacked me based on it possibly subtly hoping you would agree with it. I am not being subtle about anything. I blatantly agreed with your initial read and I don't agree that backing off would make Mastin town. He had two suspects, you and me. He could easily have called you town so that you wonder if he is town while attacking our slot because we are more certain in our read and easier to attack than you.

~ F-16

The carbonfiber points I promised:
222 – a lot of fence sitting on reads, yet goes into great detail to say very little. I get early game will not warrant strong reads, but why bother to waffle then?
233 – Acknowledges having nothing solid. So why waffle?

I posted my thoughts about the game. I could have chosen to post nothing but that wouldn't have been very helpful. Probably the same reason you made this post outlining a case on us in great detail and then waffle and say we could be town.

256 – U-Turn on titan seems off because even though you were happy to spend a lot of words saying very little, its only now that you read a person more carefully?

I didn't see anything obviously town from Titan on my first read of the thread. After Tammy engaged me, I read their ISO more closely to see why I didn't get a read and realized they were town all along and I had just missed some of the posts which made them town. I also initially forgot what I wanted to ask Tammy (why she didn't claim that she could read our slot as soon as I posted when other players were commenting on FT's posts but it turns out she was waiting on me to initiate interaction). Also, there is no way 254 came from scum so that sealed the deal. Part of my read was influenced by the push because I saw the obvtowniness there when I previously hadn't. If I were scum who hadn't read the thread carefully, I probably would have townread Titan as I usually do, not wait till I am certain. I've read Tammy as town off of less posts than here before.

~ F-16

Hey F16,
Are ye scum?
Muffin wants to battle ye,
I'm calling him dumb

-Nati

You called him the right thing. Give him a punch in the face to go with it.
~ F-16

Fox, what do you think of Breakfast? The whole bit where he says F-16's posts lack depth doesn't make sense. Thoughts?

I wasn't talking about lack of analytic depth. There is plenty of depth to most of his analysis. I was referring to lack of depth in interaction.

I think his reasons for thinking Mac is town are good, and fit what I've seen in the past from him in terms of how he goes about forming reads.

I asked FT whether my play lacked depth because I wondered if I was just having an off game but he flatly denied it and said I was probably playing better than anyone else which made your lacking depth comment sound off.

When you say lacking depth in interaction, are you saying that you would have preferred that I grill you on your Mac read more as being helpful and pro-town overall or just because it would fit in with my past meta in NY169? Upon re-evaluating my play, I eliminated aspects of it that I thought were unhelpful specifically extended discussion of agreed upon reads. I am going to play in a way I believe would help town the most regardless of what I did before. If I did it differently in a previous game, then I changed my mind since then as to what I believe is the most effective course of action.

Also, are you asking me to compare notes with you because it will help us both refine our reads or was it something you expected to see and didn't see it now? I'd like to know which it was since it'll help me optimize my play not just here but in the future.

~ F-16

If it's really bugging you, what struck me as off about LB was when I tried to keep the mafia encryptor alive, he claimed that I was championing the cause. He also had a very, very subtle way of making suspicion on him feel like something that needs to have a lot of effort put in. It was really obvious in hindsight and I know why I didn't say it then. Damn, I wish we were Masons or something because I don't want to say just yet because he may do that in the future just in case I am wrong.

~ F-16

It doesn't make sense because F-16's posts are some of the most in-depth analyses of behavior so far. Each of his town-reads was explained pretty damn thoroughly. You agree it was a poor word choice, right? I get having trouble putting thoughts into words. But why use the word "depth"? How does that relate to the explanation and follow-up thing? You seem to think the entire sequence was town, right? Help me understand Breakfast's thought process (and yours as well).

The thing where you attack both your partner and the guy attacking your partner, but vote for the guy attacking your partner. Pretty sure it's a classic scum-tell, though it doesn't really matter. I'm not a huge believer in objective scum-tells. What I'm trying to say is that Elemental is scummy, and he's scummy cause his post was massive shit.

-FT

Point is, Elemental's basically doing one of those classic scum-tells -- calling Mastin + us scummy, but preparing to vote for us, not Mastin. Assuming Mastin is scum, Elemental is pretty much guaranteed scum.

-FT

Elemental's post rubs me the wrong way. They're basically calling F-16 scum because his opinions change as he reads and re-reads the game. Very superficial analysis, considering that F-16's changes in opinion are responses to developments in the game, to re-reading, and have been explained. The non-committal suspicion on MastinSSK is also terrible, especially when combined with the analysis on us. I get the feeling that MastinSSK + Elemental are partners from this alone.

-FT

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

I'm more interested in the process than in the results at the moment.

The process of how I read you as opposed to whether I read you as town or scum? My priorities are different. I care about being right more than meeting expectations of how you would expect me to sort you. I'll be as transparent as I can to help you mutually sort me but I am not going to try and emulate previous games.

~ F-16

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

I have been doing that even while I haven't developed a townread on you, for instance asking what you thought of Mac.

I am curious though what did you find notable in NY169 in particular that would make it a priority for me? I'd probably want to compare notes even without considering NY169.

~ F-16

Also Tammy, I am on page 5 of my tenth? re-read and obsessively re-reading is a massive, massive towntell for me and I hope you of everyone here will notice that and see how fucking town I am so I can work with you and make this the best damn game I've ever played in my two years of playing mafia.

~ F-16

What didn't you like about it?
~ F-16

(I worked in reverse-chronological order.) Again, not entirety of them and not all of these are equal. Some barely there at all, some blatantly ragey.

[MastinSSK]

How on earth do you interpret any of those posts as "ragey?"
~ F-16

Because ragey does not equal

bold,

italicized,

underlined, CAPS LOCKED,

LARGE

FONT

posting. That's a type of rage, sure, but ragey posting isn't the same thing. It's, I dunno how to say it. Aggression? Hostility? Snappiness? Fury-that's-not-furious? That's the best explanation I've got.

I will also have to hear Mastin's defense.

I've got no intention of defending myself.

It's as I said before. You either get that we're town, or you don't. Like, there's no better way to describe it. No tell. No defense. Heck, no role. No play. Nothing changes those. Perhaps those things contribute to the whole. But ultimately, you either understand or you don't.

I am as convinced as I can be at this point. I am rarely this confident in my reads.

And I don't think you're town making this post. 'Specially since it goes against everything my lessons taught to you.

(By the way, Clyton is hilariously town in his posts. Yes, his tone is robotic, but his content is pretty dang solid.)

I'm really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally not liking Fox/Hound's posting, by the way.

In general, I think there is such a 'look how town I am!' quality to many of their posts that I actually have a pretty passionate scumread on them.

I've gone over this before,
Because this argument really smells,
For mastin, this isn't actually scummy,
If anything, it's a town tell

I wish. I faked it too much as scum for it to be a towntell anymore. Used to be, sure, yeah. Don't really think it is anymore.

I would expect that this,
Is something F16 should know,
For a meta-heavy player,
Why does his mastin read blow?

He goes on and on about mastin,
Forming a bad read on him,
But it's almost as if he's given mastin's ISO,
Nothing more than a simple skim

Yep, basically one of the main things about F-16. He's basically discarded everything he knows about me and treating me like a total stranger of a player.

Possibly in a game which is not a uPick, and not a Cabd game, I'd wonder if it makes that player town.

Actually, we didn't submit anything. I was busy at the time, highly V/LA that weekend. I saw the PM asking us to submit, and had an "Oh, crud" moment, since I thought SSK had submitted, I didn't really know what to submit, so I forwarded the PM to MafiaSSK, and basically left for the weekend. And returned to see in my inbox from him, "I'll let you pick.
Unless you want the mod to randomize choices for us."

...Which means unless he did submit something (I sincerely doubt it), it was randomly given to us. I like what we got; it

is

highly appropriate for us. But it wasn't something we actively chose to get. (I'm still figuring out how we'll claim one of our abilities, though; the mods wised up. Last time, I used TVTropes articles. This time, the name of the ability IS a TVTropes article, and I'm not sure I can link to that. )

I do wonder why mastin didn't just link your iso and call it "ragey" as there are some posts there that can only be called "ragey" if your dictionary defines "ragey" as inquisitive and reasonable sounding.

Because it's not the entirety of his iso that's ragey? I'm too lazy to explain why each and every one of the ones I linked to was ragey, but I CAN select the posts that have the rageyness strongest in them to give you a better idea of what I mean.

Do you think I am wrong about Mastin or should look at anyone else in particular?
Regarding Clyton's posts, they do sound unemotional but I am fairly sure that's his playstyle. I disagree with his view of the gamestate so that's something that should unravel as we get more content from him and he could be looking at it from a different POV.

This really.
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally.
Looks like scum manipulation to me. Like. I dunno how to best explain it. This is me, what I do as scum, trying to manipulate specific players? I'm not sure I can explain it better, but I can think of a game that kinda sorta can show what I mean. Read this post, and then read my posts in Too Many Heads, to see what I mean. This is the type of post I made towards the AP/ETL/Guyett hydra in particular, who I was mega-buddying mostly out of fear and necessity.

I'm not sure what to make of it, but the hey yeah investigate me thing bugs me too. Cabd's put godfather's in both of the last tales games and though I don't know if he'd put in the godfather who chooses what role would be shown to a role cop again, I'd bet he'd definitely put in something that could interfere, so IDK

Like I said. It requires trust on my end, that yes I'm town asking to be investigated and yes I know what I'm doing. But to re-emphasize. Any other role, I'd probably not ask. You can trust me that with THIS role, investigating me is a good idea, and if the investigation were successful, it'd be gamebreakingly powerful for the town. I'm well aware of what Cabd did last game. And that's why I said that investigating me requires trust, that I know what I'm doing, that if things worked out, I could address that exact concern. But I don't want to fullclaim. Perhaps D2, maybe later (like D3). I

could

claim, but again, think it'd be best to wait.

(Side-note, but one advantage of being in a Cabd game is that nobody's going to be able to figure out my role from the softclaims I've done. They may think they have. They're sure to have speculation in mind, and have plenty of ideas. But they'll never correctly figure it out. And yet when I pull the pieces together for a fullclaim, everyone will go, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That makes total sense now!")

This feels to me like you're trying to manipulate mastin's play to suit your thoughts, rather than manipulating your thoughts to suit mastin's play.

Also this.

Mastin says he thinks Elemental is our partner based on the same reasons I provided for believing Elemental is Mastin's partner.

Not exactly. I said my reasoning is

similar

. Haven't quite figured out how to properly express it, though. Kinda difficult to verbalize.

The point was that Elemental is casting far more suspicion on us than Mastin.

And you're casting more suspicion onto us than onto Elemental.

I never played with Mastin before, but from what I understand, shouldn't we expect better from her?

Welcome to reality, where Mastin is not nearly as competent as she is in theory. I wish. I wish I could come in. Name the scum. And be done. I wish I could do that, without it being arrogance and with it actually being correct. I wish I was a competent scumhunter. I wish I was a scumhunting goddess. But I'm not. I don't suck! By no means am I incompetent. But I'm not nearly as good as my reputation suggests; I'm overall mediocre. Perhaps mediocre-high overall, but still mediocre all the same.

She doesn't seem to be reading very carefully, or considering any sort of motivation behind posts.

'Course I'm not reading. I hate wallposts, 'specially wallposts that are hard to read thanks to bad paragraph formatting. But I am reading motivation. It's one of the main reasons that a lot of my reads have changed as they have.

I mean you're giving me a paranoia attack when you say "that thing you called me town for? I'm not town for

that.

You should be townreading me for

these things.

"

Ah. But I actually said "I'm not town for that. If you wanted to make an argument for me being town for similar, these things would be better...but even those kinda suck." And it's true. I'll shoot down bad reasoning for calling me scum, but in the interest of fairness, that also requires me to shoot down bad reasoning for calling me town.

[MastinSSK]

Random softclaim again 'cause I'm an obsessive compulsive 'crumber:
My role makes me strongly believe we have four scum in the game--no more nor less, and probably no serial killer.
There

could

be a SK in theory, and theoretically I guess there could be five scum. (There's a minor precedence for it.) But I sincerely doubt that, overall.

I really think it's four this game. (Granted, not much of a statement, but it IS backed up by my role.)

I've been thinking about this game more and although I lean towards Mastin being scum more than town, I am not as certain as I was last night mostly because people who can actually read her and those who are obviously town seem to hold very strong opinions about her which makes me wonder if I am wrong.

You know...

...For someone accusing me of slowly backing out of a read after realizing it wouldn't pan out...

...This looks an awful lot like backing out of a read after realizing it wouldn't pan out.

Rancid, I can see why certain things may not make her scum but what's the big picture? Can you elaborate on why she is so obviously town? One thing I noticed you picked up on in Too Many Heads was that Mastin can't replicate "whimsy" as scum. Is she whimsy here? Or has she done anything else that she can't replicate so far?

This in particular looked bad to me.

Side-note, but an additional point of maybe-hypocrisy: F-16 accused me of townreading basically every stronger player and trying to mislynch the weaker players. Almost all of his posting seems to be doing the thing he's accused me of.

I think FoxHound be scummy,
Mostly for their tone,
Their content comes across flat to me,
It feels like a dull drone

It feels different from what,
Ceph was like in that large game,
But I don't know if his alignment,
Is why it doesn't feel the same

DV I dunno,
I haven't seen enough,
From what I've seen though,
I'm meh on his stuff

Basically this.

Also, on Cephrir.
DO.
NOT.
REFERENCE.
PREVIOUS.
GAMES.

Cephrir specifically tailors his play to the playerlist. When going up against players who know his scum meta, he can and has

perfectly

fooled them. The contemporary Maniacal Street Mafia and 165 games, as Bulbazak described, helped illustrate that skill. He'll be whatever he needs to be to make people townread him, and townread him they will. I believe he got a Don Corelone nomination, and if not, was on the level he could have gotten one. Basically, though...you've played with him? He's played with you, knows he played with you, and will have adapted to having played with you.

I don't read Cephrir off of meta. He's one of the only players who I will read purely. 100%. On just their play in the game.
...And on that note, he's still a scumread, albeit a minor one.

(Another helpful hint, you can differentiate legitimate wagons on me from not-right-and-maybe-scumdriven-wagons on me by that factor. There's actually solid reasoning that you just "get" for me being scum? I'm scum. You don't understand the wagon? That's because I'm actually town.)

Half the time, you're aware of how arrogant you are. The other half, you're so arrogant I want to smack you upside the head. This is one of the latter moments.

I strongly suspect the behavior you mention is because of my mental health issues, but eh, I'm slowly dealing with those. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...the post you're quoting? Isn't one of those moments. No arrogance. Just truth. You either understand me or don't. Players who understand me (of which there are less than a handful--AP and Muffin being the only two I can think of off the top of my head) just

get

me. Players who don't, well, don't.

But it also applies to the bit about the difference between legitimate and not-legitimate wagons on me. A wagon on a scum-me makes sense. It's something I have trouble fighting off, because it's true and I can't really defend; the best I can do is deflect. The wagon is solid, with solid town players, and it's a miracle each time that I skate by. A wagon on a town-me doesn't make nearly as much sense. It just appears, and is there. It's something that I easily could fight off, but choose not to, in part because of that mindset--it's not true, so I really don't bother putting in the effort to defend myself.

Objectively, I think their posts are scummy.

Like hell they are. Okay, perhaps this bit is arrogance. But while it's true that people knowing me know I'm town, in spite of whatever they see that might objectively say otherwise, I don't really think that the latter half of that statement is even true; I don't think they're scummy-on-surface. I could be a random alt posting the same things, a stranger, and I'd still be townreading me.

They never give reasons for their suspicions, and when they do the reasons are explained really poorly, which is odd for someone who manages to post so many words.

Again, both heads know me and should know better.

Excuse me, I'll have to go check my magic 8-ball, since apparently you are impossible to read without the aid of magic.

This is actually a very, VERY accurate description. (It's also true of how I scumhunt, as I told ETL in our Faith Healer game.) Offense, defense, whatev. It's just...

there

.

Do you really? Really really really REALLY really?

Mostly?

I just wish I could tell whether or not that's because you're making shit up.

Even as scum, I never do. Like, as scum, I can create any narrative I choose. Most of the time, I don't out of laziness; it takes a lot of effort to maintain realistic nonsense. So instead of making things up, I simply choose to post the truth, which is often the most effective weapon anyway. Sure, yeah, truth exaggerated to suit my needs, but truth all the same.

/26.

Running out of time, so other two pages will come whenever I return.

[MastinSSK]

I am extremely lost in this game, and I blame the overabundance of meta-references that I don't understand/have time to go research. I feel like I am playing a game with a gazillion inside jokes.

Someone talk to me.

Strongly feel like this post comes from scum.

VOTE: just sheep us

Valid point.

I think if I were completely left to my own devices I'd have mastin as more than likely scum.

What is

with

people reading my play as scum, yet concluding town from reputation, others, and whatnot? I don't see it. Like. Normally. I see it. If I'm not obvtown, I know I'm not obvtown and call tell. But...well. I'm obvtown.

Carbon Fiber (2): [/color]

MastinSSK

, Rancid Broderick Drake, Mac

Oh, shit.

So

that's

how it works. (And here I was hoping we could pull a fake-hammer gambit.)

It's only about a third of our claim (eh, more like 2/5ths), but I might as well fullclaim that aspect of our role. I'm not going to randomly fullclaim everything, but part of our role dictates that our vote doesn't count when on the lead wagon until there are nine or less players alive, akin to Saki being hated while there's more than five alive.

So basically, we can vote, but our vote won't count towards the lynch of a player (since lynching requires a player to BE the lead wagon) until 9 players. Thus, why I believe that we have four scum, since that's the cutoff point.

[MastinSSK]

I assumed people read the first set of mod posts and just took mental note of it.

I, uh, really didn't.

Like, the mods actually telling us how many scum are in the game is news to me. I really didn't know. You can tell I didn't, either; look here.

Yep, five scumreads. Four

might

be possible (especially given a stronger town, which I can already tell we have), but five? Heck no; I need one or two less.

I was basically saying, explicitly, "I think there's four scum, not five nor three." That, uh. Wasn't me joking around.

I'm a bit confused, so I would like you to clarify for me. Who is Saki? And how did you conclude 4 scum players based on your voting restriction again?

Previous Tales game reference--Saki's role was Hated when more than five players lived, and loved with five or less. This aspect of my role is similar, in that my vote won't count on the lead wagon until there are nine or less players alive. As for how I concluded four scum from that, it's simple, really. Why end my restriction at nine players? The obvious answer is that 9 alive with all scum living would be lylo. And 9p lylo requires...four scum.

As I said, this isn't the entirety of my role. There's a fair bit extra in there. (That negative utility obviously means my role has positive utility, too.) But it's a significant portion of my role.

[MastinSSK]

Did you not trust what Yulia Jue posted in her first set of posts?

No, I, uh...just didn't read.

[MastinSSK]

-_- I can't believe you didn't read that Mastin. Made me thought you were actually serious and wanted to try to gain something out of that.

Well, me not reading means that of course I was serious; I didn't know it was public knowledge.

[MastinSSK]

Something I didn't do before. Not going to explain 'crumbs from unclaimed aspects of my role, obv, but for the claimed aspect of my vote...

No, not dissonance. Just us having decided a Titan wagon should go through.

(Okay, granted, we're discussing that a bit. We really think she's scum, but I think a wagon on her going through might not be as productive as on others.)

Hey, look, it's a scumhydra thought process

No, actually, we have a very good reason for my wording.

This wording was very intentional. A wagon 'going through', in this case, being reaching the lynch threshhold...with us on it, actually being L-1. I wasn't sure how our role worked; the wording doesn't actually reference how our vote wouldn't count, just that it wouldn't. But basically, SSK and I both agreed the best use of it would be to have a person thinking they were hammered, when they were really at L-1. My wording on Titan, though, makes it clear that I thought choosing her would be sub-optimal, based on my experience of what she did as scum, thus, not as productive, but that because we were scumreading her anyway, we might as well vote there anyway.

Random softclaim again 'cause I'm an obsessive compulsive 'crumber:
My role makes me strongly believe we have four scum in the game--no more nor less, and probably no serial killer.
There

could

be a SK in theory, and theoretically I guess there could be five scum. (There's a minor precedence for it.) But I sincerely doubt that, overall.

I really think it's four this game. (Granted, not much of a statement, but it IS backed up by my role.)

And then there was this bit, too.

Other 'crumbs may or may not tie into this aspect of our role, but any I'm not listing are 'crumbs that at least partially (if not entirely) refer to other unclaimed aspects of our role.

Btw,
VOTE: Fox and the Hound.

Can

see Carbon as town

It's weird to me that you simultaneously think we should realize you're town, obvtown even, and yet admit that you are hard to read. V.V

Not what "magical townread" means? Like, it means that everyone should be realizing we're town, even if they don't have concrete reasons for it.

i also basically only have townreads still.

Feel free to share.

I've been pretty much constantly manipulating people for months and months and months and have made pretty awesome strides in my scumgame, and as a result, have become more of a paranoid person, AKA it's become even harder to make it past me lately.

Isn't that wonderful?

Is it bad that the main reason I'm not thinking you scum is all of a sudden me thinking that a scum-you wouldn't be tripping alarm bells immediately?

I don't understand where her read is currently coming from.

Bork looked town. Other players who I was suspicious of had interactions with you that didn't look scum-scum. Now, counter-intuitively, you blew all the towncred that bork had but threw it so far that it's rebounded back into town. Because I'm not liking your posting, yet am thinking that the dislike comes from you actually being town rather than scum. So...my read on you is...complicated?

ElementalHawk really looks like scum.

I think you know I'm on guard for that by now: why wouldn't you subvert your meta and make a push on either Tammy or I?

Because that wouldn't make sense for the situation?

Do you really think Tammy is able to manipulate me this easily?

Quite possibly, yes?

[MastinSSK]

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum.

Except there's literally nothing in there that doesn't look like it's easily a scum conversation, just slightly reworded? Like, I have no doubt that conversation happened, mostly as depicted. I just don't see how it's an alignment-indicative conversation, since with just the slightest of filters, the scum conversation changes to look town. So you wouldn't be faking anything; you'd just be slightly editing something. (The best weapon scum has is the truth.)

Still not completely certain about Mastin; however, with his role I'm just not certain that's a scum role.

Stop reading me on my role; read me on my freakin' play. Admittedly, my role has had a strong influence on my play, but it's a part of the whole, not the entirety of it.

Meeeeeeeeeh.

VOTE: ElementalHawk.

CLAIM: CONDITIONAL INNOCENT CHILD FRUIT VENDOR SWITCH FONIC JOAT

Sadly, I can see this being true. >_<

[MastinSSK]

Do ye ever get this itch
That ye really need to scratch?
Except ye do it with ye hook
And now ye need an eyepatch

Legitimately one of the funniest posts I've ever read.

I'm having flashbacks to every cephrir-scum game that I've ever seen

Thus why my vote is moving between them and ElementalHawk.

I'm replacing this lurkscum. I could read these 40 pages, cough of some faked scumreads, and vote townies, but I'd really just cut to the latter part of that? If someone could point me to a wagon on a townie that I could hop on and get this mafia win secured, that'd be great.

You town mastin? I can smell the fear on you, just surrender now, are you mafia?

I'm bulletproof. Just kidding, I'm a lyncher for mastinSSK¹.

VOTE: Cabd.

Vote: Cabd

FoS: The mod

VOTE: MastinSSK
Because they're probably scum, and even if they're not, I'm going to end up thinking they are, anyway.

1. BULLETPROOF lyncher for mastinSSK

Good

god

, you're scum this game. Like. Normally. Normally. There's that paranoia. There's that, "Maybe he's actually town". Normally, your posting can give me some sort of goodvibes. Town, scum, doesn't matter. Normally, there's some redeeming aspect about you that throws things into doubt. But right now? Not seeing it.
At all.

Like...this is the type of thing that I can just tell. There's a town AP and a scum AP. This...just simply isn't a town AP.

It's like you're scum, who knows that pretending to be town won't work, so you pretend to be town so badly that you know I'll think too bad to be scum-pretending in the hopes that it rebounds back into town.

Hey uh mastin. Your vote on me sucks. Whats up with that?

Weeeeeeeeeell...it did. And then you had to do that thing I do when I'm actually scum, especially scum replacing in. So it doesn't anymore.

[MastinSSK]

Like.

Normally, I give AP the benefit of the doubt.

But this? Is one of those times where I have that deep, deep feeling that giving AP the benefit of the doubt will let him murder us all.

[MastinSSK]

And revoting the slot for emphasis.
ElementalHawk was a scumread.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.
AP's just scum.

[MastinSSK]

@AP- you got scum, eh?

Sadly, yes. I wish it wasn't true. But all those times AP talked to me and was sad that I was scum (and was actually scum)? I, uh. Feel like I'm finally feeling them for him.

Like...all the posting on his page.

It's...it's scum-him.

Like, I'm not going to bother reading his interactions with others; he wants me and others to do that. But...he's just...well, scum.

[MastinSSK]

Like, AP.

I really <3 you. Really, really do.

But you are a cheeky, cheeky scumbutt this game and need to die in a fire.

[MastinSSK]

Really mastin? My entry post was practically trust tell levels of town. Are we doing this right now?

No. We aren't. I'm past that point.

Like.

I really want to trust you.
Really want to believe you.
If not. If not trusting you. I want to enter into that debate.
Just so that at the end of it, I could go "Oh, fuck, he's actually town."
Really, really want to.

But I can't. Because...you're not. I want it to be true more than any other player, believe me. Yet...you aren't.

Like, normally, I'd give AP a day or two just on policy of AP being AP. Normally, I'd also be giving him that benefit of the doubt. Normally, I'd try hashing things out with him. Normally, I'd do a ton of stuff differently. But, well...I've never felt this way. That role reversal, of me being the one having seen the confscumness of a player, rather than being the player seen as confscum. Yet I know it's true. It simply...isn't the town AP. So this game, I'm the player who gets to say that line, that "You're scum, aren't you?" overwhelming feeling of sadness that the friend you know and respect is your enemy and you know they are.

Because it's true.

when you where scum as the birdinabath hydra, who did most of the posting? What did the QT look like?

AP's response is accurate; that game was mostly him, with little QT. But my read doesn't come from meta. (Okay, so past games may influence my overall perception, but they aren't driving it.) Not from that game or any other. My read comes from AP being AngryPidgeon, and everything I know about him is essentially saying that--while he's attempting to put on a strong show--this...just simply isn't his towngame.

[MastinSSK]

Wait are you serious.

Yes.

Dead-serious. AP is scum. I really really wish he wasn't. But he is.

It wasn't just the entrance post. It was all of his posts, combined not with the actual entrance post, so much as how said post was done.

Mastin, this looks a lot like you from Game of Champions.

You mean the game where I correctly pegged you immediately as scum, but backed out of it later-on? And where I read too much into your interactions with others?

That game?

Well, then, yes. It is a lot alike; the difference being that this time, I'm not backing down and I'm not going to let your trolling interfere with my reads on other players. (And vice-versa.)

Stop confirmation biasing on me over air and calm down.

This is me calmed down, AP.
MORE THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER.
I want to read you as town.
More than any other player, I love to have a town you to blaze with. I love bouncing ideas off of you, to be there scumhunting with you. And even though we can get paranoid of each other, we still make a dang-good team. Shos's game being the most recent example. More than any other player, I would love to have you be there. I'd love to confbias you...to be town.

But I don't have that luxury. Because simply put? This? This...isn't a town-you. And your play here is making that progressively more obvious. I really wanted to be wrong about that. But I'm not. You're trying to buddy me. You're trying to sway me. But the town-you that I normally pick up on simply isn't there. AND I'M LOOKING FOR IT. REALLY DANG HARD. TRYING. TO. SEE. ANYTHING. A spec. That's all I'd require. Some morsel of doubt about you.

...There is none. Not out of confbias. Simply because...your game here isn't being town. It's meant to look town. And it's doing an apparently-decent job given the sudden waves of townreads on you, but...it's not. actually. town.

Trolling isn't a scumtell for me...at all and Im actually pretty amused to have such an elaborate greeting from you, but you are wrong?

For instance, a town-you I don't think would make the assumption that me quoting your opening post means I'm scumreading you for trolling. Especially not knowing me and knowing that, well, I communicate a lot through subtext and through tracking trains of thought. (In this case, indicating the beginning of a long spiral of scum-oriented talks.)

AP r u town

No, no, he isn't.

I'm preeeetty town this game, dunno how my opening posts didn't make that blazingly obvious. I cant claim town any harder than I already am.

Except that your saying this feels empty. See this? This is the type of posting I mean when I say, "I'm so obvscum it's painful, but switching 'scum' with 'town' might make nobody notice". Hollow, empty. The words don't feel genuine. Like...there are town entrances. There are town ways of doing what you did. And this...wasn't that.

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
3 Yukari Yakumo
4 orcinus_theoriginal
5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
7 MastinSSK (Mastin2, MafiaSSK)
8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
11 Lord Business
12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
14 Cupcake Panda
15 PeregrineV
16 Clyton
17 Mac

Probtown
Lord Business
Carbon Fiber
Clyton

Next level town
Titan
orcinus

Null on town side
Kagura or Yakumo
Mac
Red Gyarados
Stalin
Fox Hound

Null on scum side
Kagura or Yakumo
Cupcake
Just Sheep
Rancid

You're missing us.

I have this in my catchup wall somewhere, but Cupcake's super obvtown and the mislynch bait that's probably going to get lynched this game despite me pointing out why it's obvtown.

AP, I can understand misreading. (I kinda get the impression he's going to give up on trying to convince me so he can pull the long-con of others.) But why is Cupcake so town?

I skimmed MAc's ISO, seems fairly town to me. The rhyming is bound to get him attention so lightly town on him for that alone. I like where his attention is, hes being proactive, and feels open in general
There are a few small things in there that are just reallly unlikely to come from scum actually. At least from MOST scum players.

Lord Business looks pretty terrible from what I've seen.

This stuff is mostly null; AP would say it regardless of his alignment. But something here

is

pinging me; I'm not sure. I think it's the horribad LB read.

MAstin, THIS is the cheekiest post I've ever read. Calling me cheeky, Im gonna go cry now. Also if you are scum this is already masterful.

YOU. ARE. BEING. A. CHEEKY. SCUMFUCK.

Why is mastins vote crossed out and on red?

Read the thread; you'll figure it out. (Nobody tell him.)

[MastinSSK]

VOTE: PeregrineV

PV's null (on town side), and I don't see pressuring him doing anything.

How 'bout AP?

You're missing us.

Null on town side

Also realized you're missing ElementalHawk/AP.

[MastinSSK]

Mastin, I have a few questions if you are still here.

Not really around. You can ask, though.

They are also a lot alike in that you are pretty fucking town, but you have devolved into howling about me being obvious scum.

Because I simply am. not. seeing. the town. Like...this just feels

off

. Your take on things.

Its anti town regardless (and in this instance) you arent even right.

I want to believe, AP.
I want to believe.

I can't.

I did not make any assumption about your read on me.

Except you quite explicitly did. You assumed it was the trolling causing me to read you as scum, when it was, well...everything.

Why do you disagree about LB?

Proof that I'm looking at you: I actually isoed LB. And while LB didn't look as town as I remember...I just didn't get scumvibes at all. Instead, it felt like he's a player that a higher-level scumhunter will go for. Not mislynch bait, but not unlynchable and not someone who scumreading will have consequences for.

[MastinSSK]

1) What didn't you like about my townread on Mac?

I don't remember?

2) Why did you think me attempting to work with specific players was manipulation and equate it to your Too Many Heads posting when you know as I well as I do that working with specific players is beneficial as town?

The way it was done? Like, it doesn't look like you're looking for their input. It looks like you're trying to put them into a specific position that's advantageous to you.

3) What made you change your mind into "can see Carbon as town" from being so certain we were scum?

I saw potential town thoughts and had stronger suspects?

As I said, kinda...not here atm.

[MastinSSK]

Also, can you elaborate more on why you think scumreading LB wouldn't have consequences, and which scumreads would and why?

Because it's the type of player I push as scum, basically. A player you can actually get mislynched, but won't receive negative attention for pushing especially since scumreading them is plausible for town, but doesn't look like mislynch bait.

You yourself said that my Mac read was good.

No, your Mac read is obvious. Nobody's scumreading Mac nor will anyone ever scumread Mac because Mac's obviously town so townreading him is nothing special. At all.

I have no idea why you are assuming my attitude is scum here rather than town.

If I knew that, I'd actually be able to lynch you.

[MastinSSK]

But my entry post was really pretty town, especially the rolecard bit?

The problem with actual obvtown entrances is that they're often not tangible. Like...I know I am obvtown. But I can't tell you why SSK was or why I am. I know it's true. I can't point to it being true.

You...are. Basically, actual obvtownness is not solidified; faked obvtownness can be pointed to.

As scum I do my best to ignore you and encourage you being ridiculous when possible.

Which is, y'know, what I feel like you're kinda doing here, though this is an oversimplification of your scumplay and we both know it.

[MastinSSK]

Everything can be pointed to. And if this were true youd have something on me other than "But, but. HES SCUM. I just KNOW it."

This is a really, really bad answer. It's a cop-out then deflection.

Recently, my scumplay has been more antihero mafia-esque.

My memory must be muddy considering your play here

does

seem

extremely

akin to antihero mafia.

[MastinSSK]

You said that fake obvtownness can be pointed to. You aren't even pointing to anything.

You're tying two different points together that are completely different things.

I'm saying that if a player's actually obvtown, they can say they are but won't be able to explain it. That they can't point to a specific post and say "that makes me obvtown".
I'm also saying that I can't point to anything specific about you that makes you scum.

The two are entirely separate things.

[MastinSSK]

Yukari's catchup was largely unspectacular too. Possible scum there.

I'm saying town, for the heck of it*.

*Nah, not really. Yukari's actually a legitimate townread.

I haven't seen anything overwhelmingly townish from AP's slot and I think the interactions between AP and Mastin are too noisy and there is not a lot of attempt to persuade others to vote AP. I don't have a townread on Mastin either. I think Fox is likely town but I'll consider Nacho's read and go over DV games I've read. Mostly for my reference but feel free to add any other games. I was in the first one. The second, I read it a few weeks ago but need to go over again.

TOWN: Mini 1472: Welcome to Swagtown
SCUM: NY 160B: Welcome to Castle Zar

I also think I have a pretty good tell on Katsuki based on the flow of his reads but I'll need him to post more to see if I am right.

And you wonder why I scumread you.

I'm hopeful to interact with them to get an actual feel, but Im not overly confident in my ability to read BRO.

I call bullshit.

You aren't cozying up to Tammy are you

Actually, he is. I scumread him for it.

[MastinSSK]

I call bullshit.

Rather, I don't doubt that off of so little content, you could have doubt about him.

I call bullshit on the idea that you can't read him well, and not only that, but also that you're so neutral on him.

[MastinSSK]

Can you elaborate, mastin?

Gonna need to be more specific. I'm Mastin. I always never-elaborate in everything.

titan
kagura
carbon fiber

lord business
stalin
gyarados
cupcake panda

fox and the hound
peregrinev
angrypidgeon
mac

----------------------- <------- line of lynchability

clyton
yukari

orcinus
mastinssk
rancid drake

drake was the thor of the original set of five. lb, titan, gyarados, and stalin are all still town with the addition of carbon fiber, cupcake panda, and kagura.

cupcake is a bro read. ap's slot was below the line before he replaced in.

vote: rancid broderick drake

choo choo

Okay, Sheep Us is scum, because this scum list is

rat's-ass backwards

.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

VOTE: Fox and the Hound.
Almost typed Just Sheep Us, but this is better.

i'm so demotivated from playing this game right now

Don't really give a shit.

...The eff?

Guys.
GUYS.

I'm

the one who should be saying this. This is my line, that I'm demotivated from playing, that I suck, that I have issues and that I don't really care. You shouldn't be the ones delivering it! >:(
Seriously, stop making me play the role reversal. I'm never the person most motivated to play, yet this game I am!

Butyeah. Lynch Fox/Hound. Gladiate Sheep Us or AP. (Yes, I'm fully aware that I'm suggesting gladiating the same players that were victim to it last time. The difference is that this time, they could actually be scum.)

[MastinSSK]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
^Decent townread.

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)
^Strong. STRONG. Scumread.

3 Yukari Yakumo
^Definitely a townread.

4 orcinus_theoriginal
^Vaguely townish.

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)
^Eeeeeeeeh.

6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)
^Seriously, seriously town.

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)
^Pretty town.

9 ANgryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)
^Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you. Sorry gonna make you cry, never gonna say goodbye, on guard for lies, and'll hurt you.

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)
^EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHH...

11 Lord Business
^Decent townread.

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)
^Either didn't learn their lesson or are scum.

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)
^Obvtown.

14 Cupcake Panda
^Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh.

15 PeregrineV
^Need more, vaguely townish.

16 Clyton
^Decently town.

17 Mac
^Basically obvtown.

[MastinSSK]

mastin, are you scum, or are you still just sucking?

I asked first.

Mastin, what happened to lynching AP?

You're worse.

At least a scumbird isn't going to alienate me by trying to lynch RBD.

[MastinSSK]

RBD is a gladiator.

They die.

It's relatively simple.

1: Gladiator Miller Age-Cop, more precisely.
2: Gladiator is not an inherently scum role.
3: Even if it was more anti-town than pro-town (and your hydra is EXTREMELY biased about that), this is a CABD game. CABD.
4: And don't read a player off of their role. (LEAST. OF. ALL. IN. A. CABD. GAME.) You read them off of play.
5: In which, the hydra is obvtown.

I repeat.
You scum, or just really, really this bad?

[MastinSSK]

Why does AP get the monologue about how scummy he is yet we don't?

'Cause he's AP, duh.

I mean, do you actually expect to get us lynched because at the moment my suspicion is that you don't actually care.

Hmm...

The Fox and the Hound (3): Kagura, orcinus_theoriginal, Mac

I'd say yes. Yes I can.

As for caring. No, not really between my scumspects? Don't give a damn who gets lynched, so long as it's one of them. Try to lynch one of my strongest townreads, and it doesn't matter that I don't have a functional vote; I will

make. you. pay

.

[MastinSSK]

1) Marginal relevance.

Like hell it is. I'll lynch anyone dealing with a simple role since roles this game are explicitly not simple.

2) Neg utility for town, pos utility for scum means that it's an anti-town role in the hands of town and a very powerful role in the hands of scum.

BUT THAT DOESN'T CHANGE THE ALIGNMENT OF THE PERSON USING IT.

3) Marginal relevance.

Like HELL it is. THE. TOWN. LOST. LAST. GAME. BY. IGNORING. THIS.

4) That's not the only thing guiding the read.

5) Says the guy who's called obvtown Katsuki and obvtown me scum.

If I misread Katsuki, this will be the first game I've done so. You, you can just be badtown since I've lost all my respect for you as a player if you're town because if you're town,

you're making the EXACT SAME FUCKING MISTAKE IN EVERY DAMN GAME

, which is why I'm hoping you're scum. So I'm not scumreading you for being scum. I'm scumreading you out of HOPE.

[MastinSSK]

This hydra and us are now a four player hydra. Pretty much where I am except I have PV and Katsuki as hard town.

Well, three until I ping SSK. Probably should do that.

Why are you reading katsuki as scum, then.

I'm not, not yet. It's an "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh" read. There's something that I'm waiting on to be sure.

[MastinSSK]

1) Bad assumption is bad.

No. It's called actually using my fucking braincells to have determined RBD is town.

2) That doesn't mean you don't lynch it.

I refuse.
REFUSE.
To believe a town you.
Is so incompetent.
As to legitimately.
Honestly.
Seriously.
Believe.

That you lynch a town role on policy just for being anti-town. Because that's what you're suggesting. Not a lynch on scum, oh no. Not a lynch because a player has done anything wrong. A lynch. On fucking policy. About a role that you don't like. In spite of how that role can (and has!) been used to great success by town.

3) Which game are you referring to

The town lost the last Tales game BY TAKING THE ATTITUDE YOU ARE.

[MastinSSK]

This hydra and us are now a four player hydra. Pretty much where I am except I have PV and Katsuki as hard town.

Well, three until I ping SSK. Probably should do that.
.

Nah, Mastin we're solid. The power of four exists!

CEPH I LOVE YOU

Unvote: Rancid
Vote: MastinSSK

But as for this. Why the change? What could Mastin possibly have done in those posts to convince you that we're scum?

[MastinSSK]

1) "He has a complicated role, therefore he's town."

No. But viewing the role as a whole IS AN ESSENTIAL PIECE OF THE GAME.

EVEN THOUGH THAT ROLE MAKES SENSE AS A SCUM ROLE.

Like hell it does.

I'm not the only one that thinks they're scum.

Sure, the others thinking they're scum are on my personal shitlist.

Town also has lost games for not lynching the obvscum gladiator (last I checked, you WON a game that way), so you're points bad and you should feel bad.

Yeah, key word, obvscum.

zMUFFINMAN. IS. THE. CURRENT. DON. CORELONE. NATIRASHA. IS. NOT. A. SLOUCH. RBD. IS. A. BEAST. And you think that their posting is obvscum?

Fuck no.

I get and how easily I self destruct.

Go ahead. Because I already have. Do me a favor, BROseidon. If you're town? Never sign up for a game I'm in again, because your arrogance. You making the same fucking mistake. Game. after. fucking. game. Is godfuckingawful.

[MastinSSK]

AP USED THAT EXACT ENTRANCE, NEARLY VERBATIM, IN A GAME WHERE HE WAS TOWN.
SO TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW IT'S "NOT A TOWN ENTRANCE"

THE. VERY. FACT. THAT. IT. IS. THE. SAME. THING.

PV is totally disengaged from the game in a way that he usually isn't when he's town.

I've seen it from him as town. It's not as common, but not unheard of, either.

As for GIF, not only is there a lack of town stuff from him, but him being a complete lurksack is exactly the sort of thing I associate with his scum game. He doesn't like being scum and it shows in his attitude towards the game.

Meh.

[MastinSSK]

Oh look, SSK decided to show up.

DOST THOU ALSO WANTETH TO BE SMITTEN

Mastin's been taking pretty damn good care of our slot so I haven't showed up Oh, and I'm SSK, so you know, I lurk.

But you have just been getting on my nerves. I do think that you are one of the scum. I think your pushes have been filled with bullshit. I don't like your use of meta. It's getting harder to see how you're town and way more easy to see how you're scum.

I'm leaving our vote where it is for now. But yeah.

I SMITETH THEE OH MIGHTY SMITER.

[MastinSSK]

arrogance.

Hey, kettle? You're black.

You're blacker!

[MastinSSK]

AngryPidgeon:

I'm blackmailing you. You sheep me on Fox/Hound, I consider letting you live. You don't? And it'll take a fucking innocent child role from you for me to not lynch your god-damned scummy ass. No, not a cop inno. I'm lynching you if you get a cop inno on you if you go against this. This is something you sheep me or die on.

PeregrineV:

I want you in the game analyzing. Even if you're town, I wouldn't cry at your death at this point, which is bad for you.

GiF:

The same, but more.

Clyton:

Where'd you go, man? You need to get in here and analyze Fox/Hound.

Lord Business:

While AP is a seriously awesome vote, I think Fox/Hound is the play for today.

Titan:

Your vote's likely good, but I really think you're wrong about Fox/Hound being town.

ffery/Beli:

PV's not a good lynch for today. Please consider Fox/Hound.

ns/Brian Skies:

PV's not a good lynch for today. You're both obvtown, so you need to be helping us lynch scum. Like Fox/Hound.


YEAH. I WENT THERE.

[MastinSSK]

arrogance.

Hey, kettle? You're black.

The difference is? I recognize the arrogance. And try to keep it under control.
If BROseidon is actually town this game?

He hasn't.

I owe him no apologies if he's town, though I'm increasingly convinced that I will because he's

actually

scum.

Someone tell me why ElementalHawk is scum.
3dice's posts were pretty town to me?

All of them looked incredibly faked. Artificial. Convenient, manipulative, and not making sense coming from town. But more than that, AP's just painfully obvious scum.

You can't overlook the fact that multiple people are scum reading the same person, and we can't all be scum.

Given who's pushing the RBD wagon?

Yes. You can.

Why don't you go run more towns into the ground with StrangerCoug-esque lynches. Sounds like a great plan!

Let's see...who mislynched me, then Molla, and had Majiffy as scum and townread both Jake and Titus? Oh, yeah. You did. (Who here had Jake and Titus near the top of their scumlist? Oh, yeah. I did.) What day was the SC mistake? Oh, yeah, D1. What days were the mistakes on me and Molla? Oh, yeah. D3 and D4. Who here had their reads change and tried to figure things out? Oh, yeah, I did. Who here never changed his scumread until that player died? Oh, yeah, you did. So let's see. Who truly ran the town into the ground that game?

As I said. If town? Same. fucking. mistake.

[MastinSSK]

Nabbed.
Grabbed.
(Loosely) Lad.

[MastinSSK]

Also why am I getting "because AP is scum" when I asked for "why is EH scum"

Same slot?

And you think pretending to acknowledge it counts for anything while you keep insisting you are infallible.

If I was insisting I was infallible, I'd still be pushing both Titan and Carbon Fiber.

Speaking of which...

F-16:

One and only reach-out I'm doing to you. Bluntly, I'm town. Don't give a shit if you've got concerns otherwise. You got questions on my play that're relevant to my reads, I'll answer, but otherwise, chasing me is a waste of time, so drop it. Fox/Hound is scum. So if you're town, listen to my words.

And I have always and will always read massive unjustified overconfidence as scum because that is literally the definition of me scum.

Ah, good, thanks for the scumclaim (hypocrisy).

[MastinSSK]

But all you did was giving me a half-assed answer with basically "but this AP here though"

Well, yes.

Your post doesn't seem so much like a reach-out more than "sheep me" because you haven't left any room for refining our reads or admitting you could be wrong based on me having contradicting reads.

You're not right nor not wrong; it's a little bit of both. It

is

a reach-out, to bridge the rift between us. It is

also

an attempt to get players sheeping me, since I need sheep in order to actually get a scum lynch. Yet it's also not a "sheep me", because I'm not asking for players to vote for Fox/Hound specifically, even though I strongly lean that way. I'm asking for feedback on all my scumspects, 'specially since I think that one of the big three (no more, though admittedly POSSIBLY less) is actually town.

How about you start with explaining your scumread on Fox and the Hound?

Conveniently enough, Xenogears just ended last night. Cephrir was the only scumbag that I was able to reliably read as scum. ONLY scumbag. And he was also? The second-most-obvtown scum player, behind mollie. Maybe even moreso. He didn't get lynched; he got nightkilled by the serial killer, who I'm not certain was aiming for scum. (I'll have to ask Aegor that.) It's a lot of reading, but this isn't something you'll understand by reading my iso and then Cephrir's iso. This is something you need the context in order to be able to understand. But simply put...

It's exactly as I described in here. Cephrir is one of THE best players at knowing his own scumplay and tailoring his play in the current game to avoid getting caught by the players he thinks matter. (For instance? Far more important to fool ffery than it is to fool me, at least as far as Cephrir is concerned. Far more important to fool Nacho than me. Because Cephrir knows them and fears them, whereas he has little to none of me.) He can never get universally townread; the tactics he uses to dodge suspicion from one party paint him in bad light to another. But through this tailored play, he is able to get FAR too many townreads and dodge way too many bullets.

This is why I don't read Cephrir off of past games. I read him off the current game. And I don't read the literal content. His literal content looks town. It always does. It did in Xenogears, too. I read the words behind the words, the mindset of the content, and from that I generate my read. I can see him posting things that are meant to look good and sound like they could be genuine, but they also come off as being flat and intentionally-invoked.

All-in-all, Cephrir is the type of player who you have to look at the reasoning, not the wording. And his reasoning here is basically the same thing that I used to catch him in Xenogears. He's doing things that he really shouldn't be doing if he was town. Among them, his push on me. Because in Xenogears, he knew I was town and that I wasn't giving reasoning, yet he brought it up in this game as if he had never encountered it before.

DV, I admittedly don't have recent experience reading. But I'm treating his half the same way I'm treating Cephrir. I'm not caught up in the past about DV. I'm focusing on reading him in the present...in which, he still looks like scum.

Do you feel that it is fake here?

Maybe. (See below.)

Let's assume you are town. In that scenario, let's say Rancid is also town. I'm actually more convinced 3Dice/AP could be scum and that's a push I can get behind.

Bluntly, AP's the alternative lynch to Fox/Hound today. There's an outside chance of a Sheep Us lynch, but I think that's overall sub-optimal. (See below.)

Correction: Just Sheep Us, AP, and Fox/Hound are all defending one another in one form or another.

One of the main problems I have with a scumteam of The Big Three here is exactly that, by the way. For all three to be scum, they'd have to be stealing a play out of MY handbook.

Admittedly, not impossible especially given AP. But their interactions don't look like all-scum. It looks like two of them are scum, yes. But while not impossible for all three to be scum...I kinda doubt that they are. Seems too easy, too simple. Especially given AP SPECIALIZES in misdirection-with-interactions as scum. (Seriously, that's his strongest scum trait. If I were to assign scum players to have specialties, that would be his. To interact in a way that no town player is able to successfully figure out. Nobody. Not even me. Will ever be able to figure out his scumbuddies off of his interactions, and often not off of interactions to him in games with daychat. It's what he does best.)

And of the three...I'm scumreading Cephrir, and I'm scumreading AP. I'm not actually scumreading Sheep Us, so much as it is that I'm merely hoping for their sakes that they're scum and not just bad-town. (Again.) I'm preeeeeeeeeeeeetty much going to lynch all three of them

anyway

, just as a precaution, but I don't think that they're all scum. Just mostly scum.

[MastinSSK]

Point of regard, I'd rather not be gladiated?

Well, yes, but this is true alignment-regardless.

I'm going to be blunt.

Today, we're lynching one of {Just Sheep Us, The Fox and The Hound, AngryPidgeon}.
RBD is going to gladiate one of the two survivors.

There's no other way the days will go.

So you wanna live?
Bluntly, fullclaim now.
Not later.

Now.

Let's face it, no matter what your role is, it's not going to do any good to the town if you get lynched. IF you're town, scum using their abilities (maybe including a nightkill) on you could only be protown, since they're using their abilities to interfere with a scummy player rather than on a more town player. So to be frank. You need to fullclaim. Immediately. You know my logic is true. And quite frankly, I'm going to take it as a scumtell for you to refuse. No "just trust me" will work, here. There's no sweet-talking you can do. No role you can possess. That would save you.

[MastinSSK]

There are players with townreads on us. She'll probably need their help if she wants us lynched!

Yep, which is precisely why I talked to every single player I could think of possibly being any help on the matter at all, who wasn't already there. (That said, should probably write appeals to bork/Nacho to help me write more convincing cases. Don't really need to ask zMuff/Nati, since we're a 4p hydra at this point and they already know.)

Not interested.

1: Just you, or the entire hydra?
2: Why not?
3: How 'bout AP? Any interest there?

(Side-note, but I just now realized that Titan's new avatar is Prometheus. That took me way longer than it should've to get.)

[MastinSSK]

If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional.

The problem is, this is exactly the thing you specialize in doing as scum.

I don't understand how you can even think that I should clearly think Mastin is town, because they've given me basically no reason to at all and plenty to think the opposite, ie pushing for an easy mislynch on me like it's literally a stronger conviction than most people's religions and still can't even pretend to have a reason excpet "this is soooooooooooooo scum" as though having a sufficient number of vowels in a word makes it extra convincing.

You're an easy mislynch, you think you're obvtown. Choose one; you can't have both.

[MastinSSK]

This is town as fuck.

Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.

Im not going to full claim just because its on the mastin agenda, mastin.

And I explained the reasons.

You are not escaping a lynch.

We don't lynch you today, it's tomorrow. If not then, D3. You are not escaping that fate. I explained explicitly why you claiming would be pro-town. Because if we're not wagoning you today (which would force you to claim anyway), we're wagoning you tomorrow in a 1v1 against Rancid, which will 100% result in your lynch because nobody here is going to choose to save you over saving Rancid. And if Rancid 1v1s the survivor of Fox/Hound and Sheep Us rather than you, we just wagon you on D3.

You KNOW it's true. So I say again. You wanna live? You need to prove it.

[MastinSSK]

"I don't read Cephrir off past games but let me tell you about Xenogears". Lol.

I'm not using Xenogears to read you. I'm using it to illustrate how I read you. There, it wasn't meta, either. There, it was just reading you in the then and the now.

You may notice that I won the argument there and came reasonably close to getting you lynched.

A lynch on me was never going to go through, by the way, because too many people get me, understand me, and can read me and tell when my wagon's driven by scum.

For someone so concerned with how good I am at imitating my town game you sure don't seem to be considering that I was doing exactly that in Xenogears.

Except I am, quite explicitly?

You are not in charge.

Oh, but I am. Who here is getting wagoned? Rancid, myself, or...you, AP, and DespBro? Yeah, my point exactly. You can call that coincidence if you'd like, that my top three choices are the top three wagons, or call me scum conveniently having my top three choices be the top three wagons, but that isn't true. I created them, those wagons, with my influence. To say it was all me would be arrogance, but to say I play no part in their existence is ignorance. So, yes. I am in control.

I wasn't before, and I was fine with a push on me. But when you tried to get a Rancid mislynch, that I couldn't let go through. So I took command. I'll step down when I have good reason to do so. But for right now, I am in control. There are others who have influence. I am not a soul tyrant. But ultimately, in spite of me being the one person who has no vote, I am the girl with the most control over the votes.

You and RBD are the only people aggressively misreading me, so Im not exactly shaking in my boots over here and Im not going to out my nice little role just because mastin wants it so.

Yeah. The two players in this game

having the most charisma

are scumreading you...and one of them has a fucking gladiate that they fully intend to use within The Big Three that you are among.

You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum.

No, my point is that you are scum because you are

arguing that your posting doesn't sound like scum

, when that's

precisely

the thing a scum-you specializes in doing.

[MastinSSK]

Will read 57/58 and such later, but...

Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

^Ceph's take on me.

Posting quickly, be back much later.

[MastinSSK]

IM NOT GOING TO GET LYNCHED WITH THIS ROLE AND NO IM NOT CLAIMING IT.

The two are mutually exclusive?

This could come from either alignment and I dont see why you care so much.

The way it's done makes the difference, though. And I care as much as I do because people are letting them get away with a BS point that at BEST (KEY WORD BEING "AT BEST" MEANING CAN BE AND I THINK IS WORSE!) is null.

Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

Again, it's the way it was done. This is something a bit difficult to describe, since it kinda ties into the magic-town stuff, about a player who either is or isn't scum. And that's part of it. A town player generally has a good idea of why they're town...but can't (or if they can, won't) point to specific things that make them town, especially not things tied to the difference/similarities between games.

This game does not look like town PV btw.

Nor scum-PV. Because there is no PV to be seen, yet, not really. PV not giving content isn't a scumtell; it's a nulltell. So it'll be easier to get a read on him after there is more content. (And if he doesn't give it, then he can be lynched. But it wouldn't be a lynched-for-being-scum; it'd be a policy-lynch, to stop dragging the game down with lack of contribution, a factor that can and has lost him games. Yet this isn't a D1 thing; this is a much later day, like at least D4, thing.)

But can you really say this about mastin with a straight face after anything goes?

He can, and can even mean most of it together, too. Problem is that he probably wouldn't be, sooooooooooooooooo, yeah.

Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

These reads don't jive with your posting. Like...I should be in the 'probably town' pile as I am, but...all your posting places me in the town pile. (For that matter, I think Mac's similar.) Vice-versa for RBD. They deserve the town spot, but all your posting is saying probably-town. Red Gyarados and orc are randomly thrown in there, too.

The bits below that also feel off. The Clyton-in-rest bit in particular.

All-in-all, this reads list feels like it could come from any AP...who has posted differently. From AP as he's posted this game, this reads list feels...

off

, in an intangible way that eludes me.

Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

^Ceph's take on me last game.
Posting quickly, be back much later.

And now that I am back, I can elaborate. Basically, this is how Cephrir viewed me last game. Someone who, in spite of scumreading him, was no threat, and in fact, he thought I was mislynchable. He's got the exact same read of me this game. He doesn't think I'm a threat. He doesn't think that my scumread on him is problematic. He thinks he can actually get a lynch on me. And this attitude towards me is, again, a large part of the reason I think he's scum. (I had better wording in my head at the time, but I can't pull past-me's reasoning up.) Basically...he's playing a con game. Again. Like he was in that game. There were a multitude of comments about him being townread, and at least one or two of them were from meta if memory serves me. Because that's what he wanted them to see.

And this game, he's doing the same thing. There are a fair number of people townreading him, a LOT from meta, because that's what he wants them to see. Instead of him actually being town, he's made himself look like town. That's basically the main reason AP's scum, too, because AP's done the same damn thing. Yes. They look good, because they put effort into looking good. No, they aren't actually good. Because that wasn't their goal. They aren't aiming to be town; they're aiming to do a good job of looking town. That's my read of them, of their posting, of their situation.

[MastinSSK]

Would you like me to post your take on players when you were scum?

No, but I can fake my thoughts of scum on each of the players, as they originally were and as their replacements come. (Obviously, has the same problem as last game in that I don't actually know who would be scum.)

I swear everything you've posted today sounds like the mastin from our scum qt in Anything Goes.

You know why I was so proud of Anything Goes? Because Anything Goes is the closest I have ever gotten to 100% faking my towngame. I broke half a dozen of my strongest towntells that game and then some, and hit 100% of the right notes. Not only that, but I managed to predict basically most of the outcome of the game early-on with my analysis of the players. It's the best scum game I had ever done at the time.

But I am getting really. fucking. sick. and. tired. of. people. comparing. every. damn. game. to. anything. fucking. goes. EVERY. DAMN. GAME. I was scum. I played well, in spite of seeming obvscum to others. I won. Get over it. And read me in the now. Not the then.

Maybe it's because you sound like you have an agenda rather than you're trying to solve the game.

It's a Cabd game. Of course I have an agenda. What that agenda is will have to wait. (Yes, another softclaim. Dealwithit.) The two are not mutually exclusive.

Right now I'm not really sure how to parse the brouhaha between AP/JustSheepUs/Mastin/RBD with Fox and Hound on the side. Have you been able to take away anything from all that?

There could be three scum in there, but there's probably two.

Hint: It's not RBD.

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing she's going to claim is going to be her real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game.

Umm...
...About that.

My role's anything but 'pretty useless'. It's actually pretty freaking strong an ability. The vote removal disability is basically balancing out the awesomeness of the other aspects of my role.

[MastinSSK]

I mean Muffin is a ridiculously difficult lynch and I don't understand the protectiveness towards him because he isn't one that needs any.

1: Rancid's hated, so taking one less to lynch makes it easier.
2: He was also the lead wagon.

So I'd say my hydra buddy did need a helping hand, yes.

You're missing drive to explain why AP is scum, though.

The drive behind APscum is that he replaced in as scum...in the slot most heavily suspected by the town.
And quite possibly mirroring me in Attack on Titan, with scumbuddies in the firing line.

AP is not the type of scum player to make an intricate plan. He's impulsive, living in the now, for the most part. His best ideas as scum are done not well in advance, but at most with one night of planning before-hand. AP will have a map on what to do immediately, but his long-term plans are incredibly vague. You'd be lucky to see a kill/lynch map laid out from him, even given daytalk, since that's simply not his style. It's one of the main areas that he differs from me as a player. The drive behind AP's posting is to survive, not to lynch scum.

I dunno maybe we're delusional but I have never seen ceph look as town on day 1 as he looks this game and beli agrees that he's town as fuck.

The heck are you smoking?

No.
I still don't really like Orc.

Eh, sure, but I don't dislike him, either.

[MastinSSK]

Which is part of why mastin calling my game here a lot like Antihero mafia was just flatout baffling.

In hindsight, Game of Champions would be a better comparison. Butyeah. No metaz 4 u.

Why are you doing this? This really is not town motivated...at all. Claiming flavor? Trolling about your role? Ok maybe. This?

The only answer you're getting to this is that the answer's in my iso. I'm not going to respond to (for lack of a better term--MS.net really only has two) rolefishing. (It's not asking explicitly for a claim, so not that. It's not subtly prodding for a roleclaim, so not rolefishing as rolefishing. But...a weird middle-ground?)

[quote="In post 1537, AngryPidgeon"Im a little startled that you have him as "aggressively null". Talk to me about why that is.[/quote] He'd be town if Tales didn't happen.

Why Yukari is a legitimate townread?

Eh, it's weak, but I think GiF's stances here are slightly more likely to come from a town-him.

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

This is town as fuck.

I think I second this, and have retracted my scumread on Fox at the minute. They're still null because I think their reasons for pushing RBD are poor, but that post was good.

What the hell, Mac.
What. the. hell.

There's literally nothing there that's town. Not a thing.

[MastinSSK]

Oh please, you just want meta to go away because it doesn't benefit you.

*cough*.

[MastinSSK]

I've also realized that if mastin and the rancid pirates are town then the scum team has made a deviation from my last several games from attacking me for weird reasons and are instead calling me town. (Though the attack by those two was fucking weird.). IF that's the case then I'm not sure how to distinguish right now between town recognizing me as town and scum calling me town because that's what they're supposed to do. It's fucking with my head to start looking cross eyed at people calling me town.

Do what you're supposed to be doing anyway: look at their reasons for having done so and realize some don't add up.

I'm not sure what to make of diplomatic broseidon.

OH MY GOD WAIT HAS BROSEIDON STARTED BEING DIPLOMATIC

Eh, I wouldn't say he has or that it's truly a scumtell from him, but I approve of the vote anyway.

I'm trying to remember a time you tunnelfucked someone like this and weren't scum.

Plenty of games. I've also had plenty of scumgames where I didn't tunnel. I'm lazy, though. Suffice to say, tunneling wouldn't be a scumtell; it's an indicator of my mental health, not my rolecard.

That said, Fox/Hound isn't tunneling. It's just that their posting is...well, flat. Hollow. Empty. Without heart. There are elements there, sure, yeah, but said elements look like a fakery of the real thing rather than being the real thing. If I thought they could be town, I'd express it. I don't.

I have a bunch of townreads of various strengths atm, but only 1 other candidate for townbloc. Possibly 2. I need a little more data.

I'd like to point out that the lack of readslist from you is a bit concerning.

*twitch*

I did have this reaction to 1603.

Bork's posting kinda sorta pinged me, and I think it was that he has me as basically the foundation of his townreads. But for some reason, in spite of the sudden paranoia, I'm leaning town there anyway.

[MastinSSK]

I can't parse what is scummy about that

^
Like, normally. If I do something scummy, I can tell I've done something scummy. I can get why people see something suspicious about me, even if I know they're ultimately wrong. I'll recognize it, acknowledge it, and then move on.

...But Beli? You're high on something, 'cause I really can't follow

that

.

Okay in what way is mastin town your rock?

Yaaa, mastin is either scum or channeling House Party mastin this game. I suspect the latter, but either way.

Fuck it.

VOTE: Angry Pidgeon.

Not like my vote actually counts anyway. Might as well place it here to make a statement.

Rancid town and amusing as fuck.

For the record.

Anyone with Rancid as town has reason to strongly believe me as town.
Anyone with AP somehow as town (they really shouldn't) has reason to strongly believe me to be town. (Heck, even if they think AP's scum they should still be thinking me town anyway. )
Anyone who has BOTH as town (although they're wrong on AP) should also have me as essentially conftown, since AP and zMuff are the only two players I can think of off the top of my head to instinctively, 100%, "get" me and never misread me.

Granted, that relies on trusting them (you should trust Rancid), and only applies if you townread them (some scumread both, oddly), butyeah.

I dunno about AP. I've been fooled before, but I can't decide on paranoia alone.

AP's just scum.

I've admittedly wavered a bit here and there. But he's just...not town.

[MastinSSK]

Bork's posting kinda sorta pinged me, and I think it was that he has me as basically the foundation of his townreads. But for some reason, in spite of the sudden paranoia, I'm leaning town there anyway.

...what?

-b

Kinda self-explanatory?

I felt a massive, "HMMMMMMMMM..." with your posting for a bit (and theorized it was off of the defense of me), but ultimately, in spite of how I feel like I should be paranoia-reading you right now, I'm still reading you as town anyway.

[MastinSSK]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)

So I want to talk about each of the players in more detail. Conveniently enough, I just discussed bork yet he's also the first on the list, meaning I might as well knock him out of the park first.

I remember really strongly liking bork's early posting, though I don't remember why. I think it mighta been due to jiving well, seeming casual, relaxed, and all-in-all, that town tone. That, however, is weak.
I remember not liking Nacho's posting, as if it felt like the scum him who I've wanted to catch for ages now...and then it dawned on me that that's pretty much precisely why he probably wouldn't actually be scum. Because while I am weary of a scum-Nacho, I know Nacho's scum game has taken strides, and his game here doesn't seem super-strong. It feels okayish, but not super-mega-strong like I'd kinda be expecting of a scum-him. So I overall reached the conclusion of him being town.

When it comes to bork's posting, I'm not sure what it is about it. It's like that same posting said a different way would look like scum, but said the way he does just feels like town. And how to describe it eludes me. It just feels like...I dunno, transparent? Like I can follow a stream of thought, and that his thoughts when presented before me look immensely town.

So overall, while I have had paranoia of them, I'm thinking town.
And screw it, right or wrong, I'm sticking with stronger-town.

[MastinSSK]

I just don't get how you aren't feeling town-sincerity dripping from that post I called out.

THERE IS NONE.

That's why.

Like.

If there was one post.

ONE.
Post.

Of theirs I could call insincere.

It'd be that one, above all others. You're calling

the scummiest of the scummiest posts

they've made to be a crowning moment of towniness.

I don't get why you think scum-ceph would follow the xenosaga playbook given the player overlap.

He's not. He's following his own playbook. Said playbook has some overlap, like not thinking me to be a threat. But he's not playing the same as in Xeno. Heck, if he was, I might counterintuitively be townreading him. (No, not really.) He's just playing scum, in general.

[MastinSSK]

2 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir and DV)

Coincidentally enough, that made a nice segway into the next player on the list.

As a warning, there's basically nothing here that I haven't already said. But basically...the main reason they're scum is that they haven't been posting as town. There's a lack of sincerity in their posting, especially in their shallow scumhunting. Their posting is manipulative rather than analytical, and they're playing reactively rather than proactively. Additionally, their posting is largely buddying. Know what's really part of the reason they're scum? A lack of provocation. Of safeness in their posting. The closest they come to it is in their dismissive posting, which itself is, well, scummy.

I pulled up their iso, and I'm seeing all of this, quite strongly, throughout their posting, in basically every section of the game. That lack of true, well...effort, for lack of a better word. There's nothing in there that is remarkable. Just stuff meant to look good that vaguely points people in directions that are beneficial to them.

I really can't describe it better than that.

[MastinSSK]

mastin how confident are you in my reads?

What

reads?

(If you mean in general, though...enough to want to synch, not enough to blindly sheep.)

how confident should I be in your reads?

My confidence is 95% on the stronger reads. But since I could be arrogantly pushing the wrong areas...oh, I'd say...about 80%? Seems about right; my stronger reads you can be 80% confident about. (Some much higher, some much lower.)

[MastinSSK]

Been trying to ignore the shit you're spewing about me but seriously, a lack of provocation?

Yes. Of your posting being safe, rather than riling feathers.

You apparently can't point to anything in particular.

It'd be pointing to essentially everything. I could explain stronger ones, weaker ones, and why they are what they are, but I meant it when I said, I could go into basically any spot in your iso and see them.

Also, at least half of that post if true indicates simply that I am indeed Cephrir, so good for you

This is also a scum way of wording it, though in this case I actually do lack the wording to explain why.

[MastinSSK]

3 Yukari Yakumo

Unsurprisingly, this one's going to be short. There's really not much to see one way or the other. That said, while GiF's earlier posting made me vaguely think town, for the overall attitude and the weirdness of his posting (among other reasons), now, I'm not so sure. He's the closest thing I have to a true null read.

[MastinSSK]

What should tell me that THIS time I should subsume my reads and follow yours?

Because this time, I actually have the backing of others, and because this time, the players I'm mainly focusing my attention to are players I'm actually at least somewhat a respectable authority on.

Secondly, that's exactly what I'm doing right now.

No, you're defending against me. The closest to riling me up you've done is the dismissiveness you had towards me. Which is still not ruffling feathers up.

Then DO IT.

No. Takes too much time, nobody would read, would accomplish nothing but clutter the thread.

[MastinSSK]

4 orcinus_theoriginal

Bluntly, the only reason orc's not a much stronger townread is out of paranoia. His posting has been insanely town. His way of greeting others and his reactions to it have been town, and his sorta-lurkiness also comes across as being town. Basically, while he hasn't done much, everything he's done has looked town. As I said, the only doubt there is, is because I know he's a competent scum player. And because there's not much content, he could theoretically be scum not wanting to show his hand.

But other than that, town.

Sooooo, not as strongly town as Kagura, but basically right up there at that level, I suppose.

[MastinSSK]

5 Titan (Tammy + Sir Arthur Dane)

For the record, I still don't think that Tammy was ever truly obvtown. I could see them being scum posting a lot of what they have. Their reads being massively out of whack with mine is also something that concerned me, because all-in-all, something about them did kinda feel off.

...But I ask myself, "Do you truly think they could be scum?" And the answer, while a reluctant yes, spawns the question, "Okay, dumb question; do you truly think they actually

are

scum?", to which, the answer--after a small bit of pondering--never changes. Closing eyes. Breathing in. Clearing mind. And as exhaling, shaking my head.
No.
No, I don't.

Which begged the question, if they're not scum, where do I place them? I haven't felt them obvtown. I still don't. But my answer was quite undeniable. In spite of not having any reason. No logic. No backing. Off of just my gut, my instinct, my feeling. I look at them and think, how town are they?

Near the top of my townreads. Something about them just feels like town. Not obvtown. That's a different feeling. But...still town.

Kinda wish I had a way to make that make sense, but this is the best I've got.

[MastinSSK]

Take this chip

AND EAT IT

Coincidentally enough, I've been reading a few TVTropes articles centering around Light Yagami.

[MastinSSK]

6 Rancid Broderick Drake (zmuffinman and natirasha)

Bluntly, these guys are obvtown. They're my strongest townreads, and always will be. I don't suck at reading Nati; I caught wind of him-as-scum decently-easily last time I hydraed with SSK. (For that matter, SSK is apparently excellent at reading Nati. And while SSK hasn't been actively participating--again--if he so much as had a morsel of suspicion about Nati, I can assure you, he'd be down Nati's throat.)

And zMuffinman is someone who I generally can read well, too. As my mental health has degraded, so too has my accuracy, but my firm calls on him haven't been wrong. My suspicion on him in Touhou, my firmer townreads in the Xeno games (the ending doesn't count), and so on and so forth. And this just feels like the town-him. I suppose it is theoretically possible that my skills have degenerated to such a low that he completely eludes me, but I sincerely doubt that.

Basically, everything about their play is town. That's aside from how others have read him, too. The wagon on them built up a bit too easily for them to actually be scum, and then there's also their role and how they've handled it. All insanely town. Throw in what would have to be the most blatant buddying act of all time with regards to them essentially sheeping me, and you've got someone who is quite literally essentially a 4-player hydra with me, in that they are pure town.

[MastinSSK]

That shit ruins your free time, you were warned.

Ever had 300+ tabs open of TVTropes?

I have.

Trust me.

I know.

This is me as a recovering addict.

[MastinSSK]

8 Breakfast With Stalin (Hydra of ffery and beli)

I guess they're town. I don't really have anything saying why, nor really a classification. I suppose they're basically midgrade town. Not weak, not strong, just town. There's concerns about things in their play, but ultimately, I feel like they're more town than not.

[MastinSSK]

9 ANgryPidgeon 9 ElementalHawk (Prohawk+3dicerolling)

This one's going to be tough to explain. Basically, ElementalHawk's posting came across as not astronomically scummy, but definitely a leading candidate for scum. It wasn't pure scumposting, but it was quite bad. They posting a lot of halfhearted, flat, empty stuff, which when put together painted a picture that didn't look town.

Enter the AN gry Pidgeon. I won't pretend to have perfect accuracy reading him. I get paranoid of him being scum all the time. Yet ultimately...when he's town, I've always ended up figuring it out. When he's scum, I've nearly always ended up figuring it out. (And the times I didn't, I had him as suspicious but ultimately dropped him for whatever reason.) For him to be town here, I'd have to have been really off my mark, off my game, for far too consistently long; it'd basically be a record. Because I'm not seeing the town in him.

Instead of seeing a town-AP, I'm seeing an AP-pretending-to-be-town. The actions he do vaguely look town. The words he says vaguely sound town. But how they're done, how they're said, simply...doesn't. I really really wish there was a better way for me to describe the mechanic between AP and I, the dynamic we've had. But this is the best I've got. His posting has been sketchy, with all of it essentially...well, not being the strong AP I know. The best word I can think of to describe it is that it feels halfhearted, rather than sincere, but even this doesn't convey the message.

[MastinSSK]

10 Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16)

Best word I can think of to describe them is nulltown. Maybe just fulltown, but I dunno.

I really didn't like their earlier posting; it did feel fairly bad, and their posting has seemed to be consistently buddying. It's like...it's like I expect more out of a town-F16, if that makes sense, and that I simply wasn't seeing it. And that initial bias is still there, now, holding me back from a proper townread, since there's still that lingering doubt that, maybe, they actually are scum.

...But they're a lot like a much weaker Titan reads-wise. In that when I ask myself what my read on them is, my first instinct is instantly, "Town." And when I ask myself if I'm really sure, I get an "I guess?" response back. I can see the town. Do I believe it? I kinda want to. Sorta actually do. But I don't think I fully can. It just feels like something's not entirely right, I guess.

Soyeah, nulltown.

[MastinSSK]

11 Lord Business

Admittedly, my read here is stale, so he's been knocked down a peg or two. But I really liked him at the beginning of the game, and unlike players I've had doubts about, I've never really seen anything making me doubt Lord Business was actually town. Other than his slight drop in overall presence, that is.

So decently strong town, probably around ffery level. (Maybe a bit above, maybe a bit below.) I'll maybe get back to you on this one later.

[MastinSSK]

12 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon and Desperado)

Not a strong scumread, but a scumread. Basically, their stances this game have been fairly off, as has their reasoning and their interactions, and how people interact with them. I should have more to say, but that's really all I can think of.

[MastinSSK]

13 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies and notscience)

Admittedly, their weaker presence in the thread is reason to be concerned, but I really think they're town. I recently came from a game where notscience's lack of presence was used against him, and he was town. So it does happen. And he did establish himself early-on as fairly strongly town. So I'm holding onto that. I've liked them overall, even if I'd prefer them be here more, so decently strong town, above ffery.

[MastinSSK]

14 Cupcake Panda

Okay, at this stage, is probably town anyway, but bluntly, is acting anti-town and will likely continue to do so throughout the whole game as honorary-scum.

[MastinSSK]

15 PeregrineV

I'll have to get back on you on this one. Overall feeling at the moment is mehtown, but I need to iso him. More content from PV would be appreciated, though.

[MastinSSK]

16 Clyton
17 Mac

I'm lumping them together, 'cause why not. Both are townreads. The only difference is in strength.

While Clyton's posting has that robotic voice, the content contained within is insanely town. His oddities can be explained as being unfamiliar with site meta, but said oddities are played in such a way that I have a tremendously difficult time imagining that they come from a scum-him. Furthermore, if he was scum, I'd expect some sort of hint as to him being more familiar with our meta than he ought to be. Yet none exists. Rock-solid town, no, but a very strong townread, yes.

Mac's basically right up there at Titan levels of town. His posting's simply town; it's pretty dang obvious. If there's anyone here who

doesn't

have a townread on Mac, maybe I'll be bothered to explain. But basically...his posting is town. It's really obvious.




I'll compile all these later, and make a readslist out of them. Shouldn't be that hard to piece it together, though, if you're impatient.

[MastinSSK]

DV Analysis:

Shockingly enough, I am not so biased as to ignore this. I'm not reading the external links. However, I did read the rest. My conclusion was that I could understand what you were seeing, and that it wasn't impossible, just that your view of it isn't strongly plausible, either.

And tunneling is EXACTLY what mastin is doing this game.

You would

think

so, but no.

Im p sure the only reason anyone's paranoid is because mastin keeps accusing me of generically vague crap like "Im just trying t5o look town" which doesnt actually mean anything and that Im playing to Antihero mafia which is laughable.

That you're strawmanning my points like this again points to you being scum, AP. You said it yourself. You 'get' my reads, understand where they come from. You'd know what the "vague crap" would really be if you were town. (Well, you know regardless. You'd just be willing to explain it as town.)

Anyone with AP somehow as town (

they really shouldn't

)

has reason to strongly believe me to be town.

Sorry mastin, you can't have your scumread on me and vouch for my read on you at the same time.

Emphasis added. I'm not. I'm saying those who think you're town should also be trusting the townread in me, because if you were town and I wasn't, then said townread wouldn't exist. Not like this. But quite explicitly, I fully recognize they have no reason to townread me if you're scum. (Other than that a scum-AP is literally the last person I would ever consider bussing. ) And that I think you're scum.

K a lot of mastin's posting has been really stream-of-thought this game and thats why shes been a townread for me. The issue is looking back, Im really not seeing anything thats actually extremely town in the stream of thoughts / feelings posts that are going on.

Bullfuckingshit. The reason I'm town isn't some shitty stream-of-consciousness thought that I can also pull off as scum; the reason I'm town is because I'm town, and you damn-well know it. A town-you doesn't have a reason like this for me to be town to begin with; a town-you just knows. Especially evident in the latter half. Literally could not get more obvtown this game than I have been. All my thoughts are there, explained, and if you were actually town, you'd be able to follow along with all of them and understand them, even if ultimately disagreeing with some.

It almost all looks really overly static which is a symptom of mastin rolling scum (AG mafia , /in-15, mini 1408).

LIKE HELL MY READS HAVE BEEN STATIC. Sixteen players in the game other than me. One handful. LITERALLY ONE DAMN HANDFUL. Hasn't changed. (Rancid. Mac. Clyton. Ignoring strength-of-read changing, that's literally it. You can throw in Red Gyarados and Lord Business for reads that have never dipped even remotely close to the nullline, but that's it.)

I. JUST. WENT. INTO. EXPLICIT. DETAIL. ABOUT. EACH. PLAYER. And for a lot of them (probably shoulda done it for all of them), how that read has formed throughout the game. FILLED. TO. THE. BRIM. WITH. CHANGE.

Saying that Im "trying to look town" is literally the vaguest argument since literally everybody in the game is trying to look town.

Yet it's the best wording I've got.

Know what you said about me in Too Many Heads?
It wasn't some concrete scumtell you used to pin me.
It was the general feeling of my posting there.
Know what zMuff said about me there, and in Titan?
Basically the same thing, though he later found a description of "whimsy" that sort-of worked.

You're asking me to give a concrete scumtell on you, when you know DAMN good and well that none exists. Not one so easily defined anyway. I did my best to describe it. I can't give a much more competent argument than that.

Really not seeing any truly genuine explanation behind the gut and that worries me.

IF I HAD ANY EXPLANATION FOR THE GUT READ, I WOULDN'T BE CALLING IT A GUT READ.

AP. Is. Scum.

[MastinSSK]

I reall do expect SOME level of competence from town-mastin.

Okay.

How's this.

I think I finally have it.

The scumtell that describes AP.

AP's scumtell is, put in simplest terms, "You can't

prove

I'm scum, nyehnyeh."

And that's what he's doing.

[MastinSSK]

Okay.

In fairness.

AP and I are alike.
That scumtell is partially my own.
But it's his more than mine. I have other scum traits that better define my scumgame. (Among them 'lack of whimsy', for lack of a better term.) They partially define AP, but don't work as well for him as they do for me because while we're similar, we're not identical.
So when I say "You can't prove I'm scum", it's something that admittedly is something I've discovered to be among my own sorta-scumtells.

But it's not mine. It's AP's. Because when I think about one statement. That entirely encapsulates the vast majority of AP's play as scum? Across all games. Antihero. Game of Champions. Harry Potter. Wherever. It's that one statement, boiled down, just applied in different forms. AP can't be proven to be scum. That's him. That's who he is as a scum player. You can have all the suspicion in the world. But every time it's correct, the reasons are never quite tangible. Never provable. Because that's what AP's scumplay is, that's what AP's scumplay does.

[MastinSSK]

MastinSSK (4): CupcakePanda, Carbon Fiber, The Fox and the Hound, Yukari Yakumo
AngryPidgeon (3): Lord Business, Clyton, mastinSSK

Somebody want to summarize these two wagons?

Basic version: Katsuki's Katsuki, and will never change votes. Carbon Fiber's been scumreading me all day. (My read is currently town on them, but ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.) Fox/Hound are extremely likely scum. GiF, well, I really don't know why he's there. Could be scum, but not a top candidate.

The wagon is based off of...well, I don't actually particularly know, to be honest.

Lord Business is a decent townread, as is Clyton, though I forget their reasoning for being on the wagon. My reason is that this is ANGRYPIDGEON we're talking about, and he's basically just playing as a cheeky scumbutt this game.

What prompted this decision?

Seemed like a good idea to do.

Where are you getting this from?

While I don't think there's anything preventing me from saying, I think it's not something I want to discuss publicly at this point in time. Sorry.

MastinSSK wagon going strong!!!

Which never actually happens if I'm actually scum.

Mastin, your push on the slot in particular is reeking with bias thanks to the "I hope that you are scum because if you're town you're repeating the same mistake over and over again..."

Oh, yes. Quite aware. I happen to think they're possibly scum on other merits, but there's a reason I'm not actually voting them; it's because I fully recognize the bias there.

We can additionally lynch orc who is incredibly disengaged, having weird interactions with ffery (paranoia is usually the overarching theme when he's town, and this isn't one of those games where ffery should be a ride or die townread for orc. Xenosaga was one of those games, but this is not.)

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

I caught something in 1741, but shocker. Because I'm not confbiasing, I can't actually remember what. Thankfully,

Cupcake should not be a strong townread for anyone. Meta can go fuck itself.

I've got this! This half-assed, half-hearted "meta is bullshit" is entirely fake, especially since if AP was going to make this type of point, he'd have made it way sooner as town.

[MastinSSK]

Bit more of a mental note to myself, since I'm getting ready to go to sleep for the night, but I did the read of others and something I wanted to do was compile them into a single post. That'd be a perfect time for the updates to them. (And yes, in such a short timeframe, they will be updated, because again, quite explicitly not static stale reads.)

Which would be the first step towards a properly formatted readslist, soyeah. Something I'll HOPEFULLY get around to.

[MastinSSK]

This reads like it's straight from a book. I fucking love it and just had to get it out of my system.

Testament to my skill as a writer, so thank you for the compliment. (I totally wasn't even trying, there, so if you seriously mean you think that came from a book and that it was a good book...then, well. I wrote good stuff! )

By the way, Rancid--read the entirety of your post. (Needless to say, we agree on a lot, and you make me feel a lot better about many of the things I was saying.) Will respond to it later. But I'm beginning work on something I'm calling the "Ballad of Tales". And it's going to be long itself, soyeah. Will be focusing there.

I think the thing that really bugs me is her tunnelvision on Fox and AP.

It's only tunnelvision if it's wrong.




Butseriously. Said it before--none exists. I'm scumreading them. Not deathtunneling them.

But the Fox post back from Ceph that felt really genuine and pretty much the sole reason I have a townread on that slot at the moment was pretty much ignored and classed as "not town" by mastin, and that was a cause for concern for me.

Mac, it gets a lot to cause me to use that emoticon. In this case, of utter sheer stupidity. That post you're calling the only reason to have the slot as a scumread would be, by itself, enough alone for me to scumread them. There is quite literally nothing town in there. At absolute best, you could argue it being null. But that's ignoring all the wrongness in it that made it a scumpost. Rancid kinda described it, I've kinda described it, I'll try to better describe it later. But simply put, you're wrong.

In your Walking Dead post you link, you say mastin exists only in the form of "AD is scum." What differs from mastin there, and mastin here preaching to the choir that AP/Fox are scum, and not really willing to even consider changing her viewpoint?

Point of contention, in Walking Dead, I did eventually 'reach out' to players about my Dan read. And here I'm again not tunneling, since I fully admit that I could be wrong. (I just don't think I am.) Not an answer, though, since the only answer I can give you is that the two games are nothing alike.

(Oh. That also reminds me. It's something that I'd forgotten about, but I just remembered that I hated people using Walking Dead as a scum meta for me, since I felt it was not a true representation of my scumplay, and was sub-par. Which ironically enough has now been reversed with me being sick of players referencing the pinnacle of my scumplay in Anything Goes and consistently comparing my games to that game.)

And finally, the vote was pretty opportunistic given Just Sheep Us had thrown down a vote on them posts before.

Actually, I think that Fox/Hound's vote came before Just Sheep Us voted. But I think they were heading that way anyway, so point still kinda sorta stands.

Aaaand after writing all that, I've ooh'd and aah'd over my read on them.

Then you shouldn't be doubting me about my push on Fox/Hound.

Who are we voting?

Fox/Hound, I believe.

The next ping was when she went after Muffinati and brought up his Don Corleone. Burden of Proficiency is not just a harseshit argument, it's a logical fallacy.

*cough*. (Fun fact: I wrote the bit about BoP in that article on a recycled piece of paper during a 15 minute break in my work. Still have the original copy. It's jammed in on the side of the paper with stuff on it, rather than the back, since the back also had stuff relating to that article. It's better than writing on the thin paper you're meant to wash your hands with, at least! [Which, yes, I have done...a lot.] The bookshelf where I store these things is filled with bits and pieces of random inspiration, a fair amount related to mafia games, that I felt compelled to write.)

For those too lazy to read my work: yes. Yes, I most certainly do believe in it, and strongly advocate it.

It paints Cephrir as the kind of player who is contemptuous enough of mastin's ability to see her as an easy mislynch

regardless of game state

and that's a mountain of rubbish so tall it's visible from the fucking moon.

Uh, I didn't say regardless of gamestate? I'm saying the perceived gamestate is the same. Cephrir thought I'd be a mislynch that game. He thinks I will be a mislynch this game. The two are entirely separate; the quote was to demonstrate the basics for how his mind works on those things, and why he'd think them this game as well, more or less.

An iso of Kagura and perhaps one or two posts quoted to illustrate the points you are trying to make would go far to bolster your read.

Since it's forum mafia and all.

PV's scum.

You have yet to provide a singular EVEN GUT reason for explaining your read on me.

MY.
POSTS.
ARE.
FILLED.
TO.
THE.
BRIM.
WITH.
EXPLANATIONS.
FOR.
MY.
READ.

(BTW, this quote is again the "You can't prove it, nyehnyeh".)

I've said the things making you scum and quoted posts and done literally everything that I can think of to explain why you're scum this game. Explained the history, gave the backstory, showed your character, described why it is sketchy, and have been telling people about it the entire time.

A town-you doesn't make this BS point against me, because. Yet again.

A town-you knows what I'm saying

. You're pretending (AND YES IT IS PRETTY DAMN OBVIOUS PRETENDING) not to. Like, there's subtext to my points that you've ignored. There's blatant content that goes beyond subtext into explicit definitions which you're ignoring. It's literally impossible for me to explain it better than as I have. Yet you act as if there's nothing there at all.

You know who IS guilty of the heinous "Cant prove Im scum?"

Spoiler:

I know why Bork hasn't posted anything town

It's cause I'm posting it in my six QTs or whatever the fuck, right?

-b

(see: nitpicky attacks on bork for QT shit seems far more like scum throwing things at a wall to see what sticks as opposed to genuine AP paranoia).

Like hell is that "can't prove it". That is flat-out attacking you and your shitty reasoning.

in spite of how I feel like I should be paranoia-reading you right now

I seriously have no idea why you think this and I would really like to clear this up.
-b

I should be paranoid of you being scum. Should be.
I'm not.

I guess we can do this on all the players, but see 1775. You are making very vague statements that require more work to refute than it takes you to make, very much like making someone prove a negative.

Or, maybe I should say your post was pre-answered. This pre-answer ios an example of why I disagree with this read.

You, not able to explain something? Fancy that. I just wish I could tell whether or not that's because you're making shit up.

This is seriously not a town-PV.

A town-PV...how do I describe it? Is analytical. This PV? This PV...is hostile. A town-PV will have snark, but not of this nature, not derogatory. Not like this. Basically, this is too aggressive, forceful, hostile, and presumptuous to be a town-PV. Admittedly, I don't have much exposure to a scum-PV, but I've seen PV in a ton of his towngames. I've seen him run the gauntlet from lurker to active scumhunter, I've seen him play from beginnings and in middles and in ends, as town, and give actual effort. I've been exposed to how he treats the game as town, and this?

Simply isn't it. There's a lack of questions. Lack of not-knowing-things. Lack of lack of knowledge, you could say. He's not guessing. He's not theorizing. He's not analyzing. He's arguing. And I've never seen that from a town-PV. Ever.

[MastinSSK]

At this point I'm thinking that the appreciation will be less than originally intended.

Oh, on the contrary. I couldn't appreciate your posting more. I would have had you at nulltown for basically the entirety of the day, but in the span of one page, you managed to reveal traits that simply put don't come from your town self.

Ironically, this is one thing that AP actually gets right. One area where he is posting things that line up with my thoughts. And basically the first damn thing. (Literally the first damn thing.) From him that I've seen even remotely approaching town.

But Im not seeing your usual efforts to identify townies and connect/work with them. Im not seeing any attitude that suggest you rolled town (direct, but humorous).

(The latter parts, eh, haven't really paid that close attention to PV's reads, which seemed fairly null. I'm more talking about his attitude outside the reads.)

I also don't understand why you're like half reaching out and half taking underhanded potshots at me.
-b

That's almost certainly the scum PM doing the talking. If you look at a lot of his interactions with other players, there's the same thing. For instance, with me.

...You know what? That's another thing about a town-AP. A town-AP, even if I'm scumreading him, wants to work with me. Instead, he's been antagonizing me basically the entire time. Yes, I antagonized him first. But town-AP works with me

in spite of my antagonism

. (Gears of War springs to mind.) There's no effort to work with me. There's no attempt to synch up. Only an attempt to put me down.


So where I'm at right now:
AP's scum, distancing from PV who's also scum. Fox/Hound is

probably

scum, but not certainly, believe it or not. That AP and PV are both essentially chainsaw defending Fox/Hound hardcore means that for them to both be scum (which I think), Fox/Hound either wouldn't be scum or would be their strongest power role. There is at least one more, though I'm not entirely sure who it'd be. The best bets I have are Just Sheep Us and GiF, but it wouldn't be out of the question for it to be one of my weaker townreads. I do think that group's where we should focus our efforts, though.

[MastinSSK]

And yes my point is that mastin is either scum or really REALLY wrong this game.

The 'really wrong' possibility seems like a huge afterthought.
-b

Because it is.

One of the main reasons AP thinks I'm scumreading him (though ultimately, it's only one reason among many) is that AP entered and immediately buddied me with absolutely zero paranoia of my slot at all. (Which, interestingly enough, is one of my favorite moves to pull on players I fear when I'm scum. Especially AP. But I've also done it on BRO, back when I actually respected his skills, in Theatre.) It was insanely different from his entrance into Hard Boiled, even though it superficially resembles there, because AP is trying to mimic that effect.

That you like her posts? Im not insane... Calling someone a rock and then backing down when I ask you what about mastin you like is pretty sketch.

However sketch bork's posting may be, yours is 1000% more sketch.

[MastinSSK]

Tammy

,

please don't leave the game. Don't be discouraged from posting because of the load of fluff in the game. I was a little exasperated as well but I am trying to find out what is important and what isn't. You are literally one of the only players I am seeing eye to eye with that is also active and posting a lot of reasonable things that I can understand in the midst of all the other stuff to parse through.

Your posting is not bad and anyone who is critisizing it or complaining about it is either scum or can't read. If I have to pick one playerslot's posts I am looking forward to reading in this game, it would be yours. We both have very, very similar reads and I need your help in POEing the rest of the game. Get in here and play the game and we can win this by D4 after hopefully four scum lynches.

inb4 AngryPidgeon: "LOL buddying"

~ F-16

This post is actually insanely town.

Fuck any calling it null, and AP for calling it scum buddying.

This is townposting. Pure and simple. This is not manipulation. This is a sincere plea, for help in figuring things out, and addressed to a player that they respect dearly. I've been second-guessing my second-guess of my Carbon Fiber read, wondering if maybe he was actually scum. But no. He isn't. He's town, and I'm going to defend him to the death, now. Bump near the top of my townreads, in fact.

(Sometimes, all it really takes is one post.)

[MastinSSK]

Except you flatout admitted that you dont have a good reason for reading me as scum right here (well admitted that you didnt have one UNTIL here):

I reall do expect SOME level of competence from town-mastin.

Okay. How's this. I think I finally have it. The scumtell that describes AP. AP's scumtell is, put in simplest terms, "You can't

prove

I'm scum, nyehnyeh." And that's what he's doing.

Good fucking god, you're a misrepping scumbag.

My iso has been filled with reasons your slot has been a scumread since before you were in it, and continued into when you replaced in, and well after it. Yes, not a concrete scumtell. Because I didn't have the scumtell locked down, didn't have the wording to describe it, didn't have something that captured the essence of your scumplay. That post was when I finally got the way to succinctly sum it up.

That doesn't invalidate the

literal fucking MOUNTAIN of reasons I had posted before then

. (To call it just a 'wall' of reasons would be inadequate to explain the scale. There's only so large you can make a wall before it stops being a wall and becomes a mountain.)

[MastinSSK]

Im not going to go quote shit from my ISO right now, but I HAVE been caring about what you say.

Caring, sure. You'd care about my posting regardless of either of our alignments because it's important.

I didn't say you didn't cared, though. I said there's no appreciation in there. Just putting me down. Deriding me. Dismissing me. Rejecting my efforts, and basically no attempt at synching up. There's "you suck" and such, but no effort to understand me. No effort to try and get me to understand you.

[MastinSSK]

What the FUCK. I SAID NO FUCKING THING ABOUT THAT POST.

'Course not. But Carbon Fiber's someone you've been calling out, and I was making a joke about how you were likely going to be calling him out on it like he said you would.

[MastinSSK]

But Carbon Fiber's someone you've been calling out, and I was making a joke about how you were likely going to be calling him out on it like he said you would.

Like, really. That should be pretty freakin' obvious that I was referring to that, and not to a nonexistent future post that'd be after that. Something not entirely serious which still conveys my thoughts on the matter. There's no way you'd legitimately read that as me saying you said that when no post saying it exists.

[MastinSSK]

Yes and you agreed with my suspicion on them for that post.

Except I didn't. Scumread. Past tense. And I wasn't agreeing. I was commenting. My read on them had changed, was changing, and has continued to change.

Now it's not. It's town. Not moving from that.

[MastinSSK]

...Which is still a comment.
"Yes, he is cozying up to Tammy. I scumread him [at the time] for it."

That's kinda self-explanatory.

[MastinSSK]

(Was, is, and will continue to buddy, no doubt.
...And I have no problem with this.)

[MastinSSK]

Oh, I suppose on an extremely technical note, that's something I did agree with AP on for a section of the game. Before he came in. Thus not actually agreeing with him.

Butyeah. Tammy's town, F-16's town. Throw in Rancid and Mac, and you've got a solid townbloc core. (There are townreads who don't make the cut for townbloc material and players who would make the cut if my townread was strong enough, but working on it. For instance, would love to have Kagura and Stalin inside. Kagura's kinda close but needs to be refined, Stalin is a bit more iffy.)

[MastinSSK]

Oh, and for clarity because apparently it's not obvious:
No, my read on Stalin is not 'iffy townread'. They're much, much lower on my townlist than I would prefer, and would be among the candidates for scum if there were any to be within my townread. But they'd be at the rear end of that list, because they're still solidly on the townlist. Just...not as strongly as I feel they should be. They're a townread. Not strong. Not weak. Some things strengthen it, others weaken it. Thus, the iffy bit. Because if they were townbloc material, it'd be them getting stronger rather than weaker. The opposite hasn't happened, but is still a concern of mine. Stalin just...isn't leaving a strong impression, is the best way I have to word it. Strength of reads-wise, they'd be at around the Gyarados level, perhaps ahead or perhaps behind. Which is slightly above LB and Clyton honestly, so basically...highest-tier town that's not in townbloc is the read on them, if that makes sense.

[MastinSSK]

A strong town read doesn't automatically equate to a townbloc ticket from my perspective.

Nor mine. Tammy and F-16 are in the bloc not because they're townreads, but because they're strong players capable of working with others in the townbloc...and are also townreads.

Similarity in reads would make a townbloc consisting of...Rancid, basically, and that being it.

[MastinSSK]

('Course, a detail you mighta picked up on is that I'm actually outside my townbloc, since part of townblocking is voting together, and, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell......)

[MastinSSK]

actually, beli doesn't townbloc at all. He's going along with my efforts in that direction because he's a dead game sport.

Eh, fuck it, I'm calling this town, too. It might not be (not as town as what F-16 did), but I had a random urge to call this town soyeah.

[MastinSSK]

Fuck any calling it null, and AP for calling it scum buddying.

What the FUCK. I SAID NO FUCKING THING ABOUT THAT POST.
<snip>
UNVOTE: ; VOTE: MastinSSK
Over it. You are the weakest link.

I can't really say I didn't expect this at some point, since recent posts by AP have been kinda hinting at going in this direction, but I don't really believe this was the straw that broke the camel's back for a town-AP on mastin being scum.

^That.

You do realise that neither F-16 or Tammy appear to be town reading you, right?

So? They'll realize they're wrong eventually, and when they do, interest in working together will rise.

I mean... Yeah... I don't envision myself being able to work with F16 at all this game.

Call me an optimist, then, 'cause I can.

I mean. There's a lot of interest in AP. Some in PV. Scattered interest in Fox/Hound, though there's resistance. Some in Just Sheep Us, too, albeit not enough for a lynch. All we really need to do is unite behind one of them, even if we completely and totally utterly disagree about all the others.

[MastinSSK]

They'll realize they're wrong eventually, and when they do, interest in working together will rise.
------------
There's a lot of interest in AP.

(BTW, I do see these as being tied slightly together. If F-16 is serious about reaching out to players, then talking about AP would be a great place to start. Both have meh-reads on him if memory serves, rather than townreads.)

[MastinSSK]

Btw, last I checked, I somehow have the second-highest post count. Shame on y'all.

Still want to compile my readslist together. Still want to write the Ballad of Tales. Still need to respond to things in the megawall. But for the time being, this'll do.

PeregrineV (1): Kagura
MastinSSK (6): CupcakePanda, Carbon Fiber, The Fox and the Hound, Yukari Yakumo, Just Sheep Us, AngryPidgeon
Just Sheep Us (2): orcinus_theoriginal, Red Gyarados
AngryPidgeon (3): Lord Business, Clyton, mastinSSK
The Fox and the Hound (1): Rancid Broderick Drake
Not Voting (4): Mac , PeregrineV, Titan, Breaskfast with Stalin

Bork/Nacho:

PV's one of the backup options, but I really don't think we're going to get the support needed to actually lynch him, in spite of how he's scum.

What're your thoughts about Just Sheep Us, AP, and Fox/Hound? Individual, and overall if you can.

Yeah. I know. You're busy. But you both have me as a townread, so you want me to live, you need to have a viable counterwagon to me to pull it off.

Katsuki:

Bluntly, you're wrong.

F-16 / Tammy:

Legitimate offer to work with me, now. I'm not attached to the Fox/Hound wagon. But I really think your townread there is wrong. Yet that's not the purpose of the conversation. The conversation I have in mind is about others. Players like AP. Like PV. Analysis there.

Normally, I'd reach out to Fox/Hound just in case my scumread there is wrong. But while I should be doing so, bluntly, I don't think I have anything to say to them.

GiF:

You get your ass in here and start playing or you'll get lynched. On policy, if nothing else. Aside from Kats, everyone this game has given more than you. Unlike Kats, you don't have meta pointing to you being town.

Desp/BRO:

If you're town? Get into the game more. Nothing you've done this game has been really true scumhunting--if it exists, then I don't remember it. I see policy-votes and laziness. So get active. Post. And in particular, analyze AP. Who you should both be familiar with. Tell me with a straight face that this is the town-AP you know.

AP:

My offer for you to fullclaim still stands.

orcinus:

While your vote may be good, a DesBro lynch is unlikely to happen today. I believe you're kinda busy, but if you're town, we, uh...kinda need you posting, here.

notscience:

Motivate Brian Skies to play.
Also, where are you at in the game yourself?

zMuffinman:

Fox/Hound likely isn't happening today. We can lynch it tomorrow, but today we need to be open to any of scumspects, and, well, the wind flows towards AP.

Mac:

Hate AP's content this game, now's the chance to prove it.

Beli:

Your read on me sucks. Assuming me-town, where do you stand? Approximately, anyway.

ffery:

Still no readslist. Please remedy that. It can be tentative. It doesn't need extensive reasoning. It can be subject to change. Heck, it doesn't even need to synch with Beli. Give me something, though.

Guh. This was far more demanding in tone than I was hoping it'd be. Sorry. Sorta distracted. I'll try to be more diplomatic and less forceful later, and reword these same things so that they're not commanding.

[MastinSSK]

That said, though.

You might think that as the lead wagon, claiming to have influence is arrogance and ignorance.

But analyzing the other players, here...

PV's the only one who will join the wagon, and that's L-2.

Theoretically.

Theoretically

.

There are enough. Beli wants to vote. Titan could vote. Orc could randomhammer. So could Brian Skies. Mac's read on me has wavered, too.

Yet there's too strong resistance. zMuffinman. Kagura, both heads. Plus I'm of course no slouch myself. All know me to be town. And that's just those with a concrete opinion on me. Clyton and LB are likely both to come to my aid when called. Tammy won't risk lynching me if I'm town, especially not if she's suspicious of the wagon on me, and with a fair amount of time on the clock. And though Beli wants to, ffery's similar to Tammy in that regard. She won't let it happen. And Mac? Mac's read on me has also been on town, and he is actually listening to zMuff and Kagura and me, meaning he wouldn't.

All of that means that, at L-2, the only players who could/would join are orc and Gyarados, who both have shown the reckless tendencies. But their voting requires specific circumstances, circumstances unlikely to come to pass.

Simply put, it's not happening.

[MastinSSK]

give me a person to discuss with you

AngryPidgeon.

I have to leave, but I'll give specifics of your request later.

[MastinSSK]

Guh. I suck. There are things I should be doing, and here at 3 am, all I can think of to do is to get caught up.

Its not like Im married to this mastin vote, there simply isn't interest in people I want to lynch.

And this is why AP is scum.

A town-AP.
Never.

Never.

NEVER.

Would default to lynching me. If a town-AP has no attachment to voting me,

AP votes for some other player

. Because he gives the benefit of the doubt, because he loves playing with me, working with me, because he thinks I'm a valuable player, even if I have been having bad days. Yet here, he's explicitly saying he's not attached to it. That the vote isn't strong. Yet he's kept it there.

You will never find a game with a town-AP where he does this with me. You can find it in some of his scum games, though. (Not all, of course; it is not a universal scumtell for him. But it IS a scumtell.)

This is basically the main attitude difference between a town-AP and a scum-AP. That fundamental divide in mindset, where a town him will always have that respect, and a scum-him will not, essentially.

You arent doing anything worth working with.

Oh, I've done plenty. My reads will never be as solidly grounded in logic as those of others. I wish they would be, but I can only do it as scum. (And stopped doing it as scum because it became a scumtell.) But I have explained things. I have given reasoning, shown my perspective, and bluntly, raised some damn fine points that are there to be read by others. And I continue to do so. I'm not rehashing the same old points over and over again. Each time, I'm bringing new things to the table, or an alternative way of explaining the things at the table already.

And, yes. My game has been off its mark, at least partially as of recently. But not entirely. I've been mediocre, not trash. So treating me as trash is a very bad idea. My reads aren't trash. I'm probably not a scumhunting goddess. I probably haven't named the entire scumteam. I'm probably not even close to having them nailed down. But I'm also probably not entirely wrong. I'm also probably on the right track. I'm also probably more right than wrong overall. That's been true for my play in every single towngame of mine--decent, but not stellar.

So, yes. I have plenty to worth with. Both in reads and in reasoning.

And yes welcome to me and mastin in games.

IN WHICH OUR DYNAMIC IS NOT SOMETHING TO BE CASUALLY BRUSHED ASIDE.

Actually just welcome to me. My reads have been more on the tame side compared to like street racers >.>

While this is something you'd do as either alignment, and the opposite is true as either alignment about equally as well, you

do

have an

overall

tendency to SLIGHTLY (ever so slightly) have your "tamer" games be scumgames, AP.

Okay. How's this. I think I finally have it. The scumtell that describes AP. AP's scumtell is, put in simplest terms, "You can't

prove

I'm scum, nyehnyeh."
And that's what he's doing.

Except when Katsuki does the same thing literally two posts before this, you don't call him on it, despite it being what of a universal psychological trick?

Not sure I understand? Katsuki most certainly hasn't taken a "you can't prove I'm scum, nyehnyeh" attitude, and even if Katsuki had, this is a scumtell for AP specifically anyway.

What I really don't get is you having Titan as a strong townread based off of

my

post.

Umm, she's not? She was town before that, off of essentially (for lack of a better term) gut. My read on her hasn't changed since I made the readslist (well, over the course of 16 posts anyway), where she nearly topped the townlist. You joined her as an equally-strong townread; you didn't cause her to join you as one.

I feel like you are trying to get those votes.

Well, I am. Not necessarily on AP, but on someone, someone who actually has a chance of being scum, yes. AP's my preference, of course.

You did waver in your townread a bit but I'm still having trouble understanding how you actually believed the stuff you posted early game.

It's not exactly hard to understand; I fail to understand how people don't understand. I saw Titan as not being obvtown, but being manipulative. When you came in and buddied her, I saw similar. SSK actually being active at the time and sharing similar thoughts to me helped, too. Basically, there was something that felt weird in your interactions, and I thought at least one of you scum because of it. (My Fox/Hound read got tied into there, too, though I forget why.)

Wow.

ns's vote on me looks terribad if mastin flips scum.

Yeah, so did Esp/Molla's voting patterns when I flipped scum in House Party.
...Oh. Wait.

(Normally, I wouldn't make this type of heavily snarky post. But admit it, BRO deserves that. )

[MastinSSK]

(Okay. So I technically started the post closer to 3:15. Butyeah. Close to 3:45. Really need to get some sleep, here, so this is it.)

[MastinSSK]

But again why I should come begging to you for your wondrous insight is beyond me, especially since a lot of our read is probably based on the fact that mastin's pushing us-town.

So basically.

The entire reason you're voting me.

Is explicitly OMGUS.

PLUS others who I think are likely town and respect the opinion of that agree with me to some extent.

...Except that zMuffinman is one of literally only a handful who can correctly read me 100% of the time and he has me as town, and Kagura has Nacho who's got a very high accuracy as well and he's got me as town. (Admittedly, bork's the main pusher there, but Nacho does have me as town, he's just not around to say it.)

And literally every player who has played with me many times has me not solidly below the null mark. (Admittedly, a fair number of them HAVE me at the null mark, for various vague reasons.)

I'll be posting my thoughts soon. But first, I need information. What are the characteristics of a Cabd game? If I know, I can adjust my approach.

Well, I'm not an expert myself, but basic rundown is:
-Role madness. Everyone has a role.
-Explicitly bastard-mod elements. Players can be lied to.
-Setup spec heavily discouraged, leading to town losses.

[AP Never] Would default to lynching me. If a town-AP has no attachment to voting me, AP votes for some other player. Because he gives the benefit of the doubt, because he loves playing with me, working with me, because he thinks I'm a valuable player, even if I have been having bad days. Yet here, he's explicitly saying he's not attached to it. That the vote isn't strong. Yet he's kept it there.

The problem with this forced-ass case is that I DO have an attachment to voting you.

LIKE HELL YOU DO. Not as town, anyway. NAME ONE GAME. (Aside from our first game.) ONE. FUCKING. GAME. Where you voted me as town and had this attachment to voting me.

THEY DON'T EXIST.

You've suspected me. Yes, you have. You did in Too Many Heads. /invitational 15. Probably multiple others that I'm forgetting. Yes. Suspected. And briefly voted, sure, yeah. BUT YOU DIDN'T KEEP THE VOTE ON THERE. You're a lying scumbag. A town-AP. Never. NEVER. Defaults to voting me. And furthermore! A town AP never defaults to lynching me! Even when you're suspicious of me. Even when you have that feeling I'm scum. You've never let it go through.

I suspect you arent going to be a valuable player so long as Im in the game if you are town, so no.

THIS.
IS NOT.
HOW A TOWN-AP.
THINKS.

This is advocating a lynch on me not because I'm scum, but because he thinks that I'm never going to be useful. THAT. ISN'T. AP. Not as town, anyway. This is thinking like scum and letting it into his posting. He's not analyzing my alignment and trying to work with me. He's casting me aside, discarding me. This wasn't him in Hard Boiled. This wasn't him in Gears of War. Hell, this wasn't him in Too Many Heads, either.

Dont put words in my mouth please.

Fuck you, you absolute hypocrite. THIS IS THE ENTIRETY OF WHAT YOU'VE DONE WITH MY POSTING.

And its posts like this that look like scum-mastin, so yes Im 100% cozy with voting you unless you want to take up my offer to lolwagon PV.

LIKE HELL THAT WAS SCUMASTIN. You literally couldn't get a more town-Mastin post. Sure, you can argue it came from a scum Mastin. Scum Mastin makes posts that look like town-Mastin. BUT THAT POST. WAS QUITE EXPLICITLY. THE TYPE OF POST TO COME FROM TOWN MASTIN. And you damn-well know it.

Yeah, so did Esp/Molla's voting patterns when I flipped scum in House Party.
...Oh. Wait.

Are you seriously bringing this up?

You misrepping scumbag. LET'S LOOK AT THAT QUOTE WITHOUT VITAL CONTEXT REMOVED.

Wow.
ns's vote on me looks terribad if mastin flips scum.

Yeah, so did Esp/Molla's voting patterns when I flipped scum in House Party.
...Oh. Wait.
(Normally, I wouldn't make this type of heavily snarky post. But admit it, BRO deserves that. )

Of course I'm not fucking serious.

You loltunneled StrangerCoug D1 much like me here.

The difference is that there, I was never able to explain things.

Here, I have been laying out the damn case for literally the whole fucking god-damned day.

You misread the crap out of BRO (probably much like here).

And Desp, I might add, for the same reason: erroneously expecting them to be competent at reading me yet scumreading me wrongly.

You ranted and walled and shoved and got your MLs before people got suspicious and lynched you over how wrong you were.

BULLFUCKINGSHIT. The only mislynch I pushed was SC on D1. EVERY OTHER DAY, I was trying to figure things out. I had BRO as town multiple times. I analyzed things and had two scumbags NEAR THE TOP OF MY SUSPECT LIST. I had ETL, Majiffy, Molla, and Dan (all town) as townreads throughout the game. I also scumread the SK, who while not groupscum was still scum. Wrong my ass. The only scumbag never to enter my sight was dramonic, in large part thanks to you giving him the horribly-OP scum hider. How many mislynches did I cause? One. How many would-be mislynches did I fight to stop? Three. How many scum did I advocate the lynching of? Technically, three. How many town players did I waver on? Admittedly, three, but two of them were BRO and Desp. (With Desp as town for the majority of the time.) Was my performance great? No. Good? Not really. Okay, mediocre, average? Yes. Not terrible. Not something to be dismissed.

But ya bring up the game people keep saying your play here miiight resemble because its a town one.

AND WHO HERE IS MOST GUILTY OF THIS?!?
(Answer: Fox/Hound.)

[MastinSSK]

that's why my townbloc is pretty small. my reads list has a few players I'm willing to lynch today.

Just mastin? Or literally 8 people? Come on, that doesnt cut it. Sitting back and cruise controlling is not getting anywhere . Try narrowing down who you want to lynch and actually, IDK, voting or otherwise talking to those people?

You 2 have been hydra-dissonancing in general over this game and I have a hard time telling where you guys actually have focus on (other than Beli wanting mastin). Your lack of vote is pretty unacceptable at this stage of the game. Like. Figure out a reasonable pool of people you want lynched and be proactive about it.

Waffling in the corner about who may or may not be OBVTOWN enough to be part of le club is not helpful and, like I said, you are never going to make the golden dream perfect townblock causem evidenced by literally every game ever. So actually do something proactive instead of whatever it is you guys are doing right now. Which seems to be Beli wanting to lynch mastin all giddily but deferring to ffery and ffery not doing anything but trying to craft the master townblock at the speed of paint drying and with relevance on part to the points in Whose Line is it Anyway.

If you were actually discussing scumreads with your town core and voting them, then great! But you really arent. Hop to that.

Have to leave, so no time to detail this, but this is also from a scum-AP. Basic rundown (advanced version to come when I have time),
A town AP is aggressive, yes.

But this AP is flat-out commanding, demanding, and bluntly, derisive. Which are not traits of his town self. Town-AP pushes who he wants to, but he pushes as a person largely by himself. Scum-AP, shown here, is largely focused on controlling the flow of the game.

[MastinSSK]

Back, so can now explain.

that's why my townbloc is pretty small. my reads list has a few players I'm willing to lynch today.

Just mastin? Or literally 8 people? Come on, that doesnt cut it. Sitting back and cruise controlling is not getting anywhere . Try narrowing down who you want to lynch and actually, IDK, voting or otherwise talking to those people?

This is not treating Ffery as another player. This is saying a lot of things that are meant to sound protown but are really just derisive of her and accomplish nothing.

Waffling in the corner about who may or may not be OBVTOWN enough to be part of le club is not helpful and, like I said, you are never going to make the golden dream perfect townblock causem evidenced by literally every game ever.

Again. This is not an effort to work with the player in question, respecting their talents. This is not an effort to understand them. This is meant to do one thing: say, "you suck", while also encouraging them to make a reckless vote.

Furthermore, he's treating them like a strong townread. Yet there's no (for lack of a better term) trajectory to show they deserve that attitude. Okay, so AP posted a readslist once which quite frankly I forget the content of. But that reminds me--you know something about that readslist he posted? It lacked a catch-up behind it. A town-AP would have stream-of-consciousness type catchup where he would post his thoughts as he was reading, even if they ended up ultimately redundant. He didn't. A scum-him could do it, too, and to some extent, I'm willing to bet he did...
...In the mafia QT. There's literally nothing. Nothing. Indicating that he's done the reading that he claims to have done.

Again. AP as town, aggressive. Not dismissive.

LIKE HELL YOU DO. Not as town, anyway. NAME ONE GAME. (Aside from our first game.) ONE. FUCKING. GAME. Where you voted me as town and had this attachment to voting me.

THEY DON'T EXIST.

This is a lie.

Oh, really?

Let's look, shall we?
Invitational 15. Linked post is beginning of scumread, with vote. The very next fucking post is an unvote.
It goes back on, but soon comes off, and stays off. A lot.
A lot a lot.

Oh, yes. Scumreading me more than not scumreading me. I'll skip ahead: last vote, still not voting me.

Not there.

Read this game. From the linked post--that's AP's entrance into the day...immediately (correctly) scumreading me. In spite of calling me scum for literally the entirety of his remaining iso, he never votes me. He votes other players.

Anything Goes, where I was an immediate scumread. He does vote me here, but unvotes. Desire existed, but no actual vote. He doesn't vote me again until here, in spite of the scumread. And while he does keep it for a while, he does get off. And it doesn't go back on until here. (It leaves, but does go back on.)

This game is the closest I've come to eluding AP. And in that game...AP was catching on and only didn't get me because he got lynched.


Oh, and while we're on meta.
This is AP as scum, buddying me.
Same thing here. Antihero mafia is a key way to view AP's take on me when he's scum.
This game, offsite, where AP buddies me hardcore and is forced to scumread me later-on. (No iso feature, so you'd have to go through pages manually. Control-f for his name, and it'll be easier.)
The original APscum, mastintown game. Where even when voting me, AP was buddying me. Because his vote wasn't meant to lynch me, it was meant to manipulate me.

This is AP as town, pleading with me.
A similar AP town game, pleading. If you run the iso, you see that he takes time to develop the townread on me. And pleading once it exists.
This is the closest AP's ever come to having a townread on me immediately and consistently as town, and it is again pleading.
A town AP who takes time to develop his read on me. No need for pleading, though, since I had a cop inno. (It should be telling that he WAS my cop choice!)
This is AP, whose read on me never got a chance to develop.
This is AP, who works with me when we're both town.
This is him, having a read on me, but his doubt on me was faked by him not hiding behind me when if he actually thought I was scum he would have. He got paranoid, but ultimately pulled through.
A town AP picks up on me being town, and no paranoia until here. He still pulls it through, ultimately concluding SK-or-town.

Run isos or dual isos of the differences in the games.

The closest game AP has to wanting me dead was Anything Goes. When his scumread on me was immediate and never wavered. And even then. Even then. He did. But that game itself is an abnormality. The vast majority of AP's towngames with me have him taking his time to read me, getting paranoid, having the feeling be mutual if I'm also town, but ultimately having the correct alignment after push came to shove. Because he gets me.

It's mutual. My ability to read him is not as good as his ability to read me, but it's fairly good overall. Because I take my time, prod around, and after our spats, I can tell. More often than not. His alignment.

This is AP as scum.

If you are town then you are tunneling me into the ground which has never actually happened to date either.

Yes it has. In Game of Champions, where I only backed down thanks to your claim. In Antihero, where you never left my scum list. In Pick Your Poison, I don't remember if my vote ever left you, but I was hounding on you the whole game.

Stop trying to deflect things onto Foxhound.

SAYS THE GUY WHO HAS BEEN DEFLECTING ONTO A TON OF TOWN PLAYERS. Like, say. Kagura.

I disagree that town AP doesn't work to control the flow of the game.

Maybe the wrong word. But see my elaboration. AP as town is arrogant, sure. AP as town will work with others, sure. But AP as town is not derisive of others. AP as town is not dismissive of others. AP as town might be demanding, but not like this. It's an entirely different AP. It's more than tone, but that's the best word I have in my vocabulary for it. His attitude is just...entirely different.

[MastinSSK]

Also PV is totally a buddy that mastin is bussing but refuses to actually consider pushing when I bring it up.

YOU CHEEKY SCUMFUCK.

THIS. IS. EXACTLY. WHAT YOU. HAVE BEEN DOING.

And that is the difference with mastin here who gets paranoid of me but will actually put effort into understanding my reads/views and mastin here who is trying to ping anything and everything on me in really vague terms.

THERE IS NOTHING TO UNDERSTAND.

Like. Your reads. There are none. None that can be understood. Everything you're posting is entirely wrong and opaque. There's zero transparency. NOTHING. That I can get. The only things you've posted that I've agreed on are things I've already commented on as being fucking side-notes of yours compared to the massive amounts of...well...NOTHING. In your posting.

IF THERE WAS ANYTHING IN YOUR POSTING THAT COULD BE UNDERSTOOD, I WOULD BE LITERALLY THE FIRST GOD-DAMNED PLAYER TRYING TO UNDERSTAND IT. But there's nothing there. That I can.

I wanted you to be town.
So damn bad.
I wanted there to be things that could hint at it.
BUT THERE'S NOTHING MORE THAN THINGS TOO SMALL TO EVEN BE CALLED MORSELS.
No thoughts to be followed.

Just, "lol, u".

[MastinSSK]

I am sooooo happy Pere finally popped in and posted the player list and did absolutely nothing else. I'm also looking forward to the fact that he probably won't do anything all weekend long because it's the weekend! Maybe Monday, he'll repost the player list for us again. I was really wondering how I would know who was playing, so glad he's on top of that!

Lol this is town.

This is literally the first content AP posted. A quote of Titan being town. For something that she would post as either alignment. (For that post, Tammy, am I wrong?)

VOTE: Cephrir
Now THIS is a scummy wagon vote.

Second non-defensive content. And it's sheeping.

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum. I would have had to fake my thoughts on Mastin to look like I'd posted them in a hydra QT two days prior and I don't go to those kinds of lengths as scum.

Wait, people think this is scum? Has it done something absurdly scummy?

Which he immediately takes back. I really don't get why he could townread this.

My only request is that we lynch Yakuri whoever the fuck by D3 at the latest. Wow. If its scum, its gotta go. If its town, its REALLY gotta go.

I guess I get the Yukari suspicion, but it's lurker-hunting.

where are you heading with your vote? I know it's on the fox and I may endorse that, but you questioned it one or two posts later. Unless that wasnt srs, I can't tell

I don't really have anywhere that I'd rather put it right now. Figured I'd sheep orcinus who seems fairly town so far. That Fox/Hound post I quoted was less townie than I made it out to be although the sentiment behind it does look town to me.

Orcinus is somehow town. He does take the Fox/Hound bit back, but not really.

I skimmed MAc's ISO, seems fairly town to me.

The rhyming is bound to get him attention so lightly town on him for that alone. I like where his attention is, hes being proactive, and feels open in general

Lord Business looks pretty terrible from what I've seen.

The Mac read I get...but ironically, this is actually an overexplanation of it. Mac was town for being, well, obvtown. Again, AP's reasoning here is too detailed. And I can understand the sentiment that LB's posting wasn't that solid; I looked at the time. But pretty terrible? I can't.

(Side-note, but reading AP's iso, it's far more dodgy-as-fuck than I remember it having been. Seriously, read his god-damned iso this game and tell me it's straight-up honest and to the point, rather than evasive.)

and I think the main thing I noticed are some tonal issues that are lacking here

How did your read progression of bork go in that game and what tonal issues do you mean specifically?

First bit of scumhunting in a long time, and he's going in against bork (/Titan?).

Alright, thats a pretty town sentiment re: Borktells.

What is your reason for voting BRO/Desp?

And there's follow-through, but again, I don't understand the push at all. The towniest thing here is inquiring about BRO/Desp...but AP's not giving things, himself.

While I sympathize with this, I know BRO at least has been disappointingly unmotivated in some town games of his recently. No idea about desperado. I'm hopeful to interact with them to get an actual feel, but Im not overly confident in my ability to read BRO. so ya, get the frustration but I dont know if hes scummy for that.

@Foxboy: Why would your (lack of) scumread on me not matter? Ar you already resolved to getting lynched or something?

@F-16: Mastin is town. Stubborn. Tunnely. Town. I say this and I may end up waffling on her later in crippling bouts of paranoia and fits of crying, but shes town despite what I may or may not say in the future
You aren't cozying up to Tammy are you

This is quite literally one of the only things in AP's posting that I get. Because he's explaining the reluctance on BRO (though he does so via defending them ), and inquires into Fox/Hound. Plus, his point about F-16 is something that I picked up on previously and had already posted about well before.

PV, you think one of KAgura/Yakumo is scum but not both?

And the line about PV is vaguely understandable.

The next thing even close is this, and this, with DesBro and Fox/Hound pushes.

There's content here, but other than Rancid being town, I simply don't follow.

So not liking: F-16, BRO, GIF. Would lynch. Also maybe Kagura, Bork needs to talk to me.

And again, don't understand these.

Oh. And other side-note. For a player accusing me of not evolving reads...
...AP's reads haven't really evolved much. Still having F-16 as suspicious, still attacking Kagura, and such.

Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

I've moved down. Clyton moved up. PV moved down, too, but...what else has changed? Basically, nothing. Not before, not after.

Butyeah. Again. There's not much in there that I actually get, aside from this.

This game does not look like town PV btw.

And that's something that would be true AP's alignment regardless, since in basically any scumteam, PV's going to be the weakest link that they're fine with bussing.

This is halfway through AP's iso. Halfway through, and yet all I have is this.

I suppose it'd be unfair to say literally nothing to understand. But there's so little that it is a solid figurative nothing. In his posts. That makes even a remote amount of sense.

[MastinSSK]

Ffery. stop being useless. Its making you hard to read.

Ok so I WAS doing exactly that in Xenosaga, so what is your point >.>

Compare the two, though.
"Ffery, stop being useless. Makes you hard to read."
Casual. Lighthearted. Playful banter, almost. But also productive. It's scumhunting. Lightly, yes. But doing so all the same.

that's why my townbloc is pretty small. my reads list has a few players I'm willing to lynch today.

Just mastin? Or literally 8 people? Come on, that doesnt cut it. Sitting back and cruise controlling is not getting anywhere . Try narrowing down who you want to lynch and actually, IDK, voting or otherwise talking to those people?

You 2 have been hydra-dissonancing in general over this game and I have a hard time telling where you guys actually have focus on (other than Beli wanting mastin). Your lack of vote is pretty unacceptable at this stage of the game. Like. Figure out a reasonable pool of people you want lynched and be proactive about it.

Waffling in the corner about who may or may not be OBVTOWN enough to be part of le club is not helpful and, like I said, you are never going to make the golden dream perfect townblock causem evidenced by literally every game ever. So actually do something proactive instead of whatever it is you guys are doing right now. Which seems to be Beli wanting to lynch mastin all giddily but deferring to ffery and ffery not doing anything but trying to craft the master townblock at the speed of paint drying and with relevance on part to the points in Whose Line is it Anyway.

If you were actually discussing scumreads with your town core and voting them, then great! But you really arent. Hop to that.

"What the fuck. You need to step up your game. It's unacceptable."

No lightheartedness. This isn't playful banter. This isn't scumhunting, either. It does nothing. It's an attack, an attack on essentially the playstyle of the person.

It's an entirely different post.

ENTIRELY.
Different.

READ THE DAMN POSTS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SIMILAR.

They're two different worlds entirely. One from town, the other from scum.

[MastinSSK]

Note you did not follow up on this at all.

Yes, I have. I pointed out that PV's one of the options, though an option that I don't think has enough support to go to a lynch. Like Fox/Hound. I did a situational analysis, and my conclusion was scum, but that it's not something that we'd be able to actually pull off.

[MastinSSK]

Fuckin' hell, so this is what it feels like.
It sucks.

I really am the AFB of this game.

Nobody's listening.
I have basically the best damn case I could ever possibly make against AP.
All the right points are there.

Yet it's not working.
And AP?

Is likely laughing.

Laughing

.
At me.
That he's finally going to get his revenge. (Total revenge, too.)
Given that he's got daytalk. And can say "whoah, holy shit, that was actually a valid point" to some of my finer moments and "lol, legitimately don't know what Mastin's going on about" for some of my lesser points and an overall "too bad there's too much noise, 'cause if the town actually listened to her, we'd be fucked".

[MastinSSK]

This is not treating Ffery as another player. This is saying a lot of things that are meant to sound protown but are really just derisive of her and accomplish nothing.

Uh ya except you literally just accused me of actively manipulating her. Now Im just trying to look town. But this is something I never do as town.

Those things augment each other, not contradict one another. A post that doesn't accomplish anything pro-town but sounds good, is manipulative, and is putting her down.

A reckless vote?!?! @?!!???@?@?@?@ Jesus, do we have to reach Page 100 before ffery can make a vote?

It's not ffery not-voting. It's ffery-voting me. Yes. That would be reckless, given that

I am the lead fucking wagon

. If she voted some random scumbag, sure, not reckless. If she voted a town player under no danger, wrong, but at least not a risk. Voting me, which circumstances paint as the most probable scenario from voting now?

Yes.

You know this, AP. A town-you wouldn't make such a god-awful point.

So I pretty much have zero intent to respond to all those bogus meta spam accusations. If someone has something they want me to address specifically, I will.

AKA,

I actually raised good points you can't argue against

. You're picking and choosing the weakest ones in my argument to point out and destroy, to give off the impression that all of them like that. (I believe that's the classical definition of strawmanning?)

This is not treating Ffery as another player. This is saying a lot of things that are meant to sound protown but are really just derisive of her and accomplish nothing.

Uh ya except you literally just accused me of actively manipulating her. Now Im just trying to look town. But this is something I never do as town.

Those things augment each other, not contradict one another. A post that doesn't accomplish anything pro-town but sounds good, is manipulative, and is putting her down.

A reckless vote?!?! @?!!???@?@?@?@ Jesus, do we have to reach Page 100 before ffery can make a vote?

It's not ffery not-voting. It's ffery-voting me. Yes. That would be reckless, given that

I am the lead fucking wagon

. If she voted some random scumbag, sure, not reckless. If she voted a town player under no danger, wrong, but at least not a risk. Voting me, which circumstances paint as the most probable scenario from voting now?

Yes.

You know this, AP. A town-you wouldn't make such a god-awful point.

So I pretty much have zero intent to respond to all those bogus meta spam accusations. If someone has something they want me to address specifically, I will.

AKA,

I actually raised good points you can't argue against

. You're picking and choosing the weakest ones in my argument to point out and destroy, to give off the impression that all of them like that. (I believe that's the classical definition of strawmanning?)

[MastinSSK]

Know what?

Fuck this.

It's not like I'm going to get nightkilled at this point anyway.

AP's going to get total revenge. Total revenge because not only am I right, not only is he scum, but also because he gets to lynch the one player he wouldn't be able to nightkill.

Claim: Ruca Milda, Reincarnated God

.

I am essentially a modified treestump. It's not called that. And is broken into two halves, but is the best description for my role. I'm not just nightkill immune. I'm immune to ANY form of death except lynch. That's the death-immune part. The no vote part you've already seen. I am a child from innocence from Naraka (which, yes, means I'm an innocence child ), but thanks to this trope (actually, a cousin trope, but it's the actual name of the ability, so I'm not sure I can claim that), I'm classified as both male AND female for abilities dependent on gender.

You can find my iso literally filled to the brim with things about this.
Like why this is a strong ability, why I wasn't afraid to hint at it, why I wanted to be investigated (because a scum who is both kill-immune AND investigation-immune is horribly overpowered), and why I said that it's a role that would either conftown me or get me speedlynched. (Depending on how it's perceived.)

[MastinSSK]

*Actually a little bit more than for the heck of it. I have a very, very good reason to believe the claim. I'll talk to SSK about how we'll handle that.
/is most certainly not a VT this game, and not ashamed to admit it.

This was in relationship to Rancid's claim of being an age cop. Being classified as a child and having a note say that might have been an oddity. Having a specific clause about us being both male and female for gendered abilities meant that it wasn't an oddity, it was a mechanic. Meaning the claim was real.

I also reference the voting ability, and how we'd best be able to play it.

You can also see that I was being a lot more confrontational than normal for large segments of the game, specifically because I wanted that nightkill.

(Also, worthy of note: there's one thing this game has in common with Vesperia: my role is such that I'm either never going to get or am going to get speedlynched the moment I claim it*. Sadly, I'm leaning towards the latter. Again. Let's just say it's the best role I could have but also the absolute utter total worst role I could have. Depending on the day. And in this game, it's more worse than best.)

*Also depends on the handling of the role.

What is the best role I could have?

Being right on my reads

and the scumteam not able to do a god-damn thing about it

.
What is the worst role I could have?
Being wrong on my reads,

and being unable to die to end my misery

.

And the handling the role bit is for both the approach to maximizing nightkills on us and also about how we handle the votes.

[quote="In post 377, MastinSSK"

Normally

, I'd strongly frown upon this tactic. It's typically a really, really bad idea to direct power roles to specific targets, 'specially when there's things like Godfathers, Commuters, Ascetics, or...*shudder*...hiders...that they could be, not to mention, roleblockers. As just a very, VERY small piece of the list. Like, normally, it's a Really Bad Idea^TM. But this game, it'd actually be ridiculously good. (I can't exactly give details without fullclaiming. Butyeah. In this specific circumstance, it'd become gamebreakingly powerful for us to be investigated. 'Course, I don't know the scum's power, so it's possible that it could be really bad if they can interfere. And even if the scum don't have a way to screw this plan over, it takes a LOT of trust on my end that I know what I'm talking about and am town making the request.)[/quote] Why would it be gamebreakingly powerful for me to get investigated?

Because having confirmed town unkillable is gamebreakingly powerful

.

I like what we got; it

is

highly appropriate for us. But it wasn't something we actively chose to get. (I'm still figuring out how we'll claim one of our abilities, though; the mods wised up. Last time, I used TVTropes articles. This time, the name of the ability IS a TVTropes article, and I'm not sure I can link to that. )
------------
Like I said. It requires trust on my end, that yes I'm town asking to be investigated and yes I know what I'm doing. But to re-emphasize. Any other role, I'd probably not ask. You can trust me that with THIS role, investigating me is a good idea, and if the investigation were successful, it'd be gamebreakingly powerful for the town. I'm well aware of what Cabd did last game. And that's why I said that investigating me requires trust, that I know what I'm doing, that if things worked out, I could address that exact concern. But I don't want to fullclaim. Perhaps D2, maybe later (like D3). I

could

claim, but again, think it'd be best to wait.

(Side-note, but one advantage of being in a Cabd game is that nobody's going to be able to figure out my role from the softclaims I've done. They may think they have. They're sure to have speculation in mind, and have plenty of ideas. But they'll never correctly figure it out. And yet when I pull the pieces together for a fullclaim, everyone will go, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That makes total sense now!")

More of the same. Again. A highly-appropriate role for me to get (especially for AP to mislynch!), the name of an ability being a trope (okay, so not exactly, but it's one word's difference relating to the medium), and the bit about it being best to wait.

Maybe it's because you sound like you have an agenda rather than you're trying to solve the game.

It's a Cabd game. Of course I have an agenda. What that agenda is will have to wait. (Yes, another softclaim. Dealwithit.) The two are not mutually exclusive.

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing she's going to claim is going to be her real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game.

Umm...
...About that.

My role's anything but 'pretty useless'. It's actually pretty freaking strong an ability. The vote removal disability is basically balancing out the awesomeness of the other aspects of my role.

My agenda was drawing fucking nightkills.

And my role isn't pretty useless; it's fairly strong. And me admitting it was fairly strong was to serve that damn agenda to draw fucking nightkills (or at the very least, a roleblock!), because the scum would see my claim and fear it.

My ability has the drawback of my vote. (Thus why it's best described as a modified tree stump.) But has the massive advantage of--if the town trusts me--me being invulnerable and the scum being screwed over by me.

Which you see in my answer.

Why are you doing this? This really is not town motivated...at all. Claiming flavor? Trolling about your role? Ok maybe. This?

The only answer you're getting to this is that the answer's in my iso. I'm not going to respond to (for lack of a better term--MS.net really only has two) rolefishing. (It's not asking explicitly for a claim, so not that. It's not subtly prodding for a roleclaim, so not rolefishing as rolefishing. But...a weird middle-ground?)

Run my iso and look for the 'crumbs. (I'm doing it quickly, so I'm sure I've missed plenty regarding the unclaimed aspect.) It took every bit of diplomacy to find an answer that would work and not reveal my hand of, "I claimed that I had a strong role specifically so that the scum would try to nightkill me; there's literally no other reason I'd do that."

Total. God. Damned. Revenge.

[MastinSSK]

Oops. For clarity,

*Actually a little bit more than for the heck of it. I have a very, very good reason to believe the claim. I'll talk to SSK about how we'll handle that.
/is most certainly not a VT this game, and not ashamed to admit it.

This was in relationship to Rancid's claim of being an age cop. Being classified as a child and having a note say that might have been an oddity. Having a specific clause about us being both male and female for gendered abilities meant that it wasn't an oddity, it was a mechanic. Meaning the claim was real.

I also reference the voting ability, and how we'd best be able to play it.

You can also see that I was being a lot more confrontational than normal for large segments of the game, specifically because I wanted that nightkill.

(Also, worthy of note: there's one thing this game has in common with Vesperia: my role is such that I'm either never going to get or am going to get speedlynched the moment I claim it*. Sadly, I'm leaning towards the latter. Again. Let's just say it's the best role I could have but also the absolute utter total worst role I could have. Depending on the day. And in this game, it's more worse than best.)

*Also depends on the handling of the role.

What is the best role I could have?

Being right on my reads

and the scumteam not able to do a god-damn thing about it

.
What is the worst role I could have?
Being wrong on my reads,

and being unable to die to end my misery

.

And the handling the role bit is for both the approach to maximizing nightkills on us and also about how we handle the votes.

Normally

, I'd strongly frown upon this tactic. It's typically a really, really bad idea to direct power roles to specific targets, 'specially when there's things like Godfathers, Commuters, Ascetics, or...*shudder*...hiders...that they could be, not to mention, roleblockers. As just a very, VERY small piece of the list. Like, normally, it's a Really Bad Idea^TM. But this game, it'd actually be ridiculously good. (I can't exactly give details without fullclaiming. Butyeah. In this specific circumstance, it'd become gamebreakingly powerful for us to be investigated. 'Course, I don't know the scum's power, so it's possible that it could be really bad if they can interfere. And even if the scum don't have a way to screw this plan over, it takes a LOT of trust on my end that I know what I'm talking about and am town making the request.)

Why would it be gamebreakingly powerful for me to get investigated?

Because having confirmed town unkillable is gamebreakingly powerful

.

I like what we got; it

is

highly appropriate for us. But it wasn't something we actively chose to get. (I'm still figuring out how we'll claim one of our abilities, though; the mods wised up. Last time, I used TVTropes articles. This time, the name of the ability IS a TVTropes article, and I'm not sure I can link to that. )
------------
Like I said. It requires trust on my end, that yes I'm town asking to be investigated and yes I know what I'm doing. But to re-emphasize. Any other role, I'd probably not ask. You can trust me that with THIS role, investigating me is a good idea, and if the investigation were successful, it'd be gamebreakingly powerful for the town. I'm well aware of what Cabd did last game. And that's why I said that investigating me requires trust, that I know what I'm doing, that if things worked out, I could address that exact concern. But I don't want to fullclaim. Perhaps D2, maybe later (like D3). I

could

claim, but again, think it'd be best to wait.

(Side-note, but one advantage of being in a Cabd game is that nobody's going to be able to figure out my role from the softclaims I've done. They may think they have. They're sure to have speculation in mind, and have plenty of ideas. But they'll never correctly figure it out. And yet when I pull the pieces together for a fullclaim, everyone will go, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That makes total sense now!")

More of the same. Again. A highly-appropriate role for me to get (especially for AP to mislynch!), the name of an ability being a trope (okay, so not exactly, but it's one word's difference relating to the medium), and the bit about it being best to wait.

Maybe it's because you sound like you have an agenda rather than you're trying to solve the game.

It's a Cabd game. Of course I have an agenda. What that agenda is will have to wait. (Yes, another softclaim. Dealwithit.) The two are not mutually exclusive.

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing she's going to claim is going to be her real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game.

Umm...
...About that.

My role's anything but 'pretty useless'. It's actually pretty freaking strong an ability. The vote removal disability is basically balancing out the awesomeness of the other aspects of my role.

My agenda was drawing fucking nightkills.

And my role isn't pretty useless; it's fairly strong. And me admitting it was fairly strong was to serve that damn agenda to draw fucking nightkills (or at the very least, a roleblock!), because the scum would see my claim and fear it.

My ability has the drawback of my vote. (Thus why it's best described as a modified tree stump.) But has the massive advantage of--if the town trusts me--me being invulnerable and the scum being screwed over by me.

Which you see in my answer.

Why are you doing this? This really is not town motivated...at all. Claiming flavor? Trolling about your role? Ok maybe. This?

The only answer you're getting to this is that the answer's in my iso. I'm not going to respond to (for lack of a better term--MS.net really only has two) rolefishing. (It's not asking explicitly for a claim, so not that. It's not subtly prodding for a roleclaim, so not rolefishing as rolefishing. But...a weird middle-ground?)

Run my iso and look for the 'crumbs. (I'm doing it quickly, so I'm sure I've missed plenty regarding the unclaimed aspect.) It took every bit of diplomacy to find an answer that would work and not reveal my hand of, "I claimed that I had a strong role specifically so that the scum would try to nightkill me; there's literally no other reason I'd do that."

Total. God. Damned. Revenge.

[MastinSSK]

I dont get what you are claiming really. You are immune to things other than night kills....but not lynches. So you are basically bulletproof.

The PM was quite specific.
All forms of death except lynch.

Which implies there's forms of death other than nightkill. Poison. Daykills. Strongman-kills (which I'm probably immune to). Or maybe there are multiple ways of death during the night (vig + mafia, for instance), and the wording was just a catch-all "you're BP". Heck, it's a Cabd game; it could be a massive red herring which simply means, "immune to mafia's kill". I can speculate all I'd like on what could be in the game off of that phrase, but the phrase exists all the same.

You say AP acts differently in a way that you never see him do. Having seen the scum him, I can also infer that he is acting different from his scum self. Is this your perspective, or how he acts is still more aligned to his scum self than his town self?

AP is THE best player at manipulating his own meta, better than even me. (And I'm an expert at it!) His scum self will always be different from another scum self. But yes. There is a certain way that AP acts as scum that he doesn't display as town. And this game is it.

Fuck, he's basically just channeling Katsuki right now and how Kats handled AP's claim.

Mastin, if you are alive in LYLO (which you will be if you aren't lynched), it is an auto-loss, isn't it?

No. I gain my vote back at 9 players. With four scum alive, that's lylo.

(AP's post in a sec.)

[MastinSSK]

Ya, thats pretty much it. Mastin is being distracting and not willing to cooperate on reads despite this.

I AM PUTTING MORE EFFORT INTO COOPERATION THAN LITERALLY THE ENTIRETY OF THE REST OF THE GAME.

Wait...she claimed before that her vote starts applying once there are 9 people left. So I dont know how she is comparing this to a treestump role. Unless that was a lie in the first place to keep us interested in NOT PLing her for effectively being hated.

You misrepping son of a bitch.

NOT.
HAVING.
MY.
VOTE.
UNTIL.
NINE.
PLAYERS.
WHILE.
BEING.
BULLETPROOF.
IS.
A.
MODIFIED TREESTUMP.

I said modified.

Modified

. On both halves. Total kill immunity but not lynch immunity. (Tree stumps can't be lynched.) No vote until nine players. (Gaining the vote back is not part of the treestump role.) MODIFIED. But still best described. AS BEING A FUCKING TREESTUMP.

[MastinSSK]

What's that phrase?

Objectively bad play from an objectively good player is coming from scum?

AP could not be this fucking dense as town as to not understand the role. LITERALLY. COULD. NOT. It's a fairly fucking self-explanatory role.
I can't die, except by lynch.
I can't successfully vote, except when there's 9 players or fewer.
Not being able to die but losing your vote is a treestump.
The abilities when combined make...a fucking modified treestump.

[MastinSSK]

I know you dont support having cops investigate lynchbait.

And at the time I made the offer, I thought myself obvtown.

I STILL FUCKING AM, BY THE WAY.

The difference between my scumgame and towngame.
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FUCKING NIGHT AND DAY.

And this is the day.

[MastinSSK]

NO YOU ARE NOT. YOU REFUST TO TALK ABOUT PV.

I DID TALK ABOUT PV. It's literally right there in my damn posting.

I TRIED TO TALK ABOUT CF.

...As a scumread of yours. No sell.

I TRIED TO GET YOU TO RECONSIDER YOUR DUMB BORK READ.

...Which, again, makes no fucking sense.

[MastinSSK]

Fine but you are pushing your claim like it makes you conftown which gives me these gagging impulses.

No, I've been pushing that I should be conftown WITHOUT the need for the role. That the role is iffy, and COULD do that but could also invoke the opposite.

And you selling your play like you were~trying~ to get shot is really REALLY sketch and EXACTLY what I did as scum in GoC mafia where I talked about how I wanted to get investigated in order to be conftown BP.

Fuck that. Bulletproofs' sole fucking goal is to get shot at as many times as they can.

I had plans.

To not claim. To have you shoot at me, multiple nights, and wonder, "WHY THE FUCK WON'T SHE DIE?!?" Maybe waste some strong scum power in a failed attempt to take me out. And wondering. What the hell was keeping me alive. I thought it all out. Even had plans to fakeclaim that my BP deactivates when my vote activates as a tradeoff. (Though, I realized that I wouldn't be able to work out a way to pull that off, since I would never claim to lose my BP if I actually lost my BP. )

THAT IS HOW I THINK. YOU KNOW IT.

[MastinSSK]

I want the noise to stop but would strongly prefer to not focus elsewhere. I am scumreading MastinSSK and AngryPidgeon with MastinSSK being the stronger read. I don't mind lynching AP and I don't rule out bussing or scum theater.

You want AP-Mastin scumgame interactions? We have one. Dual-iso us.

We don't bus.

1) You flatout ignored me when I brought him up as a compromise wagon.
2) "Oh AP is scumreading CF, fuck that". Ya mastin ,thats proof that you are workign with me at all.
3) "Oh Bork as scum? Thats dumb" Ya mastin, thats proof that you are working with me at all.

I didn't ignore him. I analyzed him and pointed out that a lynch on him was likely not viable.

Prove me wrong. Get support going there. Go ahead and try. I don't actually have a vote. So I can't control the flow onto there at all. YOU. CAN. But you won't.
And I'm working with everyone, not just you. And your F-16 read is wrong. And your Bork read I simply don't understand.

No town.

There's nothing town.

[MastinSSK]

Hey Mastin, since you are well-versed in Cabd games, why don't you have the honor of telling me what makes a game a Cabd game? Is it the roles? Is it only a red herring aspect?

As I said, I'm not well-versed. I pointed out the reasons in one of my posts. You asked the question before, so I answered it in my iso somewhere.

And? You certainly haven't done anything that points to that being your goal.

EXCEPT LITERALLY ALL MY FUCKING POSTING HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON GETTING SCUM TICKED OFF ENOUGH TO NIGHTKILL ME.

That is how you think yes. But its not a TOWN thought process explicitly. Im sure you are quite capable of thinking as either alignment. What do you hope to gain arguing with me anyways?

Like hell it isn't. The scum-me plans victory. Not fakeclaims. The scum-me maps out manipulations. Not laying out a claim. (Seriously, iso me for 'claim' and 'role'.) My plans rely on players. PLAYERS. Not roles. I never rely on my role for victory as scum. EVER. The closest I did was in Mindreader Mafia...where it was the PLAYERS I was exploiting, not the role.

And this is a deflection away. The thing isn't "me thinking", it's

what I'm thinking about

.

And the reason I'm arguing is because I'm showing why this. is not. the town-you.

[MastinSSK]

Except you are not really trying to get AP lynched the way you tried to get our slot or the Fox and the Hound lynched.

LIKE HELL I DIDN'T.

But anyway.

I have to leave.

I'll love it when AP switches back to voting me when I'm away.

If he actually cheerleads for a PV wagon while I'm away (rather than having that be a throwaway vote), I'll be impressed.

[MastinSSK]

I know you dont have a vote but get on PV please.

No.

I'm not going to let my statement about you be weakened.

Besides.

It'll help show things more clearly.

You keep voting PV when I'm not there, you prove me potentially wrong. But I win anyway since that's a PV vote.
You switch off PV when I'm not there, you prove me right.

Either way, I win.

[MastinSSK]

Like hell it isn't. The scum-me plans victory. Not fakeclaims. The scum-me maps out manipulations. Not laying out a claim.

This coming from the girl who REFUSES to claim miller as scum because SHE WANTS TO KEEP HER FAKECLAIM OPTIONS OPEN.

Umm...

AP.

What you're saying there.

Kinda fucking proves my point.

A scum me doesn't lay out a fakeclaim because I keep my fakeclaim options open.

I've been fucking softclaiming my role the entire god-damned game which would be explicitly closing off my fakeclaim options.

[MastinSSK]

If MastinSSK flips scum, I think you should at least re-evaluate Rancid on D2 given his interactions with MastinSSK.

And WHEN I flip town...

...You do what?

[MastinSSK]

If MastinSSK flips scum, I think you should at least re-evaluate Rancid on D2 given his interactions with MastinSSK.

And WHEN I flip town...

...You do what?

(I actually did have a thought when driving. Of maybe-he's-actually-scum. But I told myself, "Screw it. Right, wrong, doesn't matter. Stick with the townread anyway.)

[MastinSSK]

Let's please NOT wagon PV. I'll even bear the noise if it means one of Mastin or AP get lynched today but it would seriously suck to have all this scum theater end in a PV mislynch.

(In particular, AP does have a point. F-16's defense of PV really, really sucks.)

[MastinSSK]

Oh, and I've somewhat calmed down, but not enough to reliably post calmly.

I am pinging SSK to let him know that I'm getting him mislynched, though, so that if he wants to contribute, he'll need to do it fast.

[MastinSSK]

WHY IN THE FUCKING HELL ARE WE AT L-4? ALL OF YOU BETTER GET YOUR ASSES OFF OF THE WAGON. BECAUSE IT IS WRONG.

I mean first just think about it! Why in the world would a mod give our voting restriction to a scum player? How does that benefit them? It doesn't! It only detriments them and their team!

But fine! You say that logic can go fuck itself. Let's look at the actual vote reasons and see if they're quality. Because my guess is that they're not.

The vote from CupcakePanda:

I ACTUALLY DID A CATCHUP?
WHAT A MIRACLE
EVEN IF IT WAS A SKIMTHROUGH

VOTE: MASTIN

Yeah. Self-admitted skimthrough then just votes us. No reason given, heck even if there is a reason its halfassed because they only skimmed it. NO! BAD VOTE!

CarbonFiber, freaking quality hydra, come on show me a quality vote:

Titan, The Fox, and LordBusiness are probably town. I agree completely with Titan's analysis on Mastin. I was thinking literally the same things. Pretty sure F-16 agrees as well. Mastin showing way too much conviction for the positions he's taking - way over-the-top - which makes me think there is no thought process behind the positions.

Vote: MastinSSK

A couple things to note with this one. True, they have given some reasoning since, but this vote itself when it was made, NO BAD VOTE!

1. It is still their first and only vote, a couple of days into the game.
2. What type of a bullshit reason is "too much conviction" especially with Mastin?

BAD VOTE!

Fox and the Hound, I'm pretty sure you're still scum so I'm expecting much from your vote but let's see:

Sheep, if I ask Ceph nicely and he says yes, do you think you'd be up for dead smiley?

Please answer, as I'm entirely serious. I am feeling really strongly right now about mastin-scum, and usually when I'm this passionate about a read it's right, and I know it's not confirmation bias because I was actually townreading Mastin for her AP thing, but hey, it turns out she doesn't actually care about that as much as she said she did and doesn't actually care about saying anything about us other than 'they're just sooo scum' even though people actually have townreads on us and so there'd probably need to be some convincing done if she's going to lynch us, so what's the answer to all this??? She doesn't actually care, does she?

CEPH I LOVE YOU

Unvote: Rancid
Vote: MastinSSK

This is just hypocritical. Really. NO! BAD VOTE!

GIFfy I really do like your modding. Show me that your votes are good too:

I agree.
VOTE: MastinSSK

...
Such blatant vote copying and mindlessness of thought is so common for a scum tact that this is the definition of the scumtell of sheeping. You could not get any more blatant with this.

NO! BAD VOTE!

Just Sheep Us, is your vote truly worth sheeping? I'm guessing not, but we'll find out:

VOTE: mastinssk

Since apparently RBD ain't happenin'

No. It's not. This is bandwagon hopping. You think you can just get on to a mislynch because it's popular. No.

NO! BAD VOTE!


Don't let the goddamn numbers fool you people! All of these votes are dumb. They're nonsensical. We're town and you can see it for yourselves.

SSK OUT.

[MastinSSK]

^posts like that make me die on the inside and you just keep doing them

Explain. I'm curious.

[MastinSSK]

@ Muffin, I am trying to work with you to see if I can make sense of the game with you-town and if you want to do that, I'm all ears.
~ F-16

So, if you made this offer to me, it never got followed through on. If you made it (too lazy to check), why wasn't it followed through on (don't say "because you spammed"), and if you didn't...why not?

I don't think you realized how you came off in the early game, with the obvtown declaration on relatively thin soup, and how weakly supported your 180 on Titan looked. Probably the only reason I gave it the credence I did was because of your reaction test of me in 169, which also looked objectively weak to me, and raised some questions about your alignment that I harbored for a good while afterwards.

Yeah, I can tell when I make an "off" entrance that is my fault. I enter games in a variety of ways, sometimes well, occasionally badly. This was one of the latter times. I understood that the initial suspicion was justified.
~ F-16

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiit a sec.

I was trying to go through your iso and figure out your mastin read earlier today, F-16. It's not clear at all why you think she's scum.

It progressed through the pages:

1) My initial scumread - I don't think Mastin's push on us was genuine.

2) Later on, she pushed the Fox and the Hound even though their responses were incredibly genuine. Her post about Ceph viewing him as a mislynch was bad.
3) Her role takes away one town vote. Rancid's role requires one less vote to lynch. What do you think of that?
~ F-16

So wait, you're a

shittier

tree stump.
And you're calling it the most powerful role ever?

No, it's modified. Stronger in some ways, weaker in others. And it is a strongish role, yes. Not as strong as I implied, yes. Because the whole idea of softclaiming was to get scum to nightkill me.

Mastin was (is?) confident AP is scum

I'm going to burn in hell for this.
I'm regretting even the thought of typing it.
I mean, doing so is basically revoking any "I told you so" cred I could have at endgame.
And sabotaging any future efforts to that endeavor if I change my mind back.
*pause*

It's.
*groan*

...It's.
(I don't want to say it. I really don't.)

...It's "was".

*grimaces*
VOTE: PeregrineV.

[MastinSSK]

Naturally, I would advise you to vote for Mastin should I agree with your arguments. Do you believe you can start a wagon for RBD?

For someone seeking clarity of others' opinions, your own seem a bit hard to parse.

From what I can gather, you have me as town and don't have Rancid as scum (but not necessarily as town), but it's really hard to follow your reads, here; mind clarifying them?

You have been scumreading Mastin. Have you ever townread her as well?

Actually, that's a good question. I'd have to figure out our game history. AP's I mostly know instinctively, but BROseidon I haven't memorized.
I remember he townread me in Theatre Mafia...where I was scum.
I remember he townread me in Xenogears...but only

after

my mason softclaim was made known, not before.
He might have townread me in Xenosaga, but I'm a good 95% positive whatever read AFB had on me that game came from the Angry half, not the BRO half.

I remember him scumreading me in Anything Goes (correctly, though again with AP), and I also remember him scumreading me in House Party. We've had one or two other games where he was scum, but that's actually all I can really remember from him.

[MastinSSK]

For players who were so concerned about NOISE NOISE NOISE.
You guys sure are making a lot of fucking noise.

Look.
Rancid's town, period.
F-16 may be town. (I waffle on that, lean against, but will not gambit on that.)

We let this debate be settled later. On a future day. We can do that, you know. Let it slide for one fucking day. If it's that important, we debate it during D2.
But at the deadline for D1 is NOT. I repeat,

not

, the time to settle this. Not in favor of either goddamned player.

You lynch someone, it's outside the two. PV, myself, let's limit it to those two options, because face it, those are the only realistic lynches.
You don't want to lynch either, tough shit, you're resigning us to a no-lynch, because there's no fucking way that we're lynching either Rancid or Carbon Fiber today.

(Why am *I* the voice of reason? >_<)

[MastinSSK]

For players who were so concerned about NOISE NOISE NOISE.
You guys sure are making a lot of fucking noise.

If you don't believe me, take a look.
You just made five fucking pages.
Of what can be boiled down as such:
"We're counterclaiming miller, with this extra ability."
"Well, you're scum, then, because that doesn't add up. Also, have some details of our ability."
"I think that this one's scum."
"No, it's clearly that one who's scum."
"Umm, Cabd game? They both can be town, you know."
"True, but I still think this one's scum."
"No, that one is scum!"

Five fucking pages.
Of nothing but that.

[MastinSSK]

(Though, for the record:
Cabon's 55/45 scum/town. A reduction of 5% comes from me seeing how Carbon's claim kinda sorta fits as town.
Rancid's 90/10 town/scum. A reduction of 5% comes from some aspects of how they're handling the claim not seeming entirely town and as a result, me not quite seeing how it'd fit as town.

But overall, I'll judge by play over claim. Thus why said reductions are only slight, and Rancid's play is immensely town and F-16's is vaguely-but-not-strongly scum.)

[MastinSSK]

We're NOT doing a compromise deadline wagon when there is a counterclaim.

Yes.
Yes, we are.

Because that's the pro-town play.

If there was reasonable doubt about the plausibility of there being two millers, sure, yeah. Lynch a miller.
There isn't.

Both could be town.

Furthermore, while neither ability can be proven via cop investigation, both abilities can be proven by other methods.

We'll never get a clear understanding of the alignments of either, especially not in a Cabd game.
But we'll have a much better understanding after a day or two.
There are certain roles in which you lynch one after there's been a CC, in certain circumstances. Especially out of theme games, it's practically the default except in some rare cases.
This is not one of those times.

[MastinSSK]

But if you really want to lynch a miller claim, F-16, by all means, self-vote.
Rancid's never getting lynched today.
EVER.

Even if you had all the scum and all the members of the neighborhood backing you (let's assume there's no overlap), you'd still end up falling short.

Push me. Push PV. Sure. But Rancid's living today.

[MastinSSK]

GET IN THE HYDRA QT. Also What is your general policy on Hated claims?

When I get home.

My policy on Hated claims is...there is no policy, they're a nulltownish claim where their handling is case-by-case.

And stop pushing Carbon Fiber. Let that be sorted later.
Keep pushing PV.

[MastinSSK]

RBD is pretty sure about their CF read, do you not give that any weight?

Some. zMuffinman is a badass scumhunter. Not a scumhunting god. I like his points, really like them. But I'd rather not risk lynching Carbon on D1 if F-16's actually town.

[MastinSSK]

IDK if Id even claim Hated if I were a mafia hated.

And lose the towncred? Pfft.
(Also, would cause you to get lynched if people thought they were bringing you to L-1, soyeah.)

[MastinSSK]

Okay. PV's just scum.

Rancid, AP, you want F-16 dead today, I get that.

But he can wait.

PV's just a plain simple scumbag.

[MastinSSK]

Actually.
I just thought of something.

Rancid's role deals with age. (Wouldn't surprise me if it deals with gender, too.)
Carbon's role deals with game.
Both roles are millers.
Cabd game, yeah. So they might have one be town and one be scum yet claims mostly real.

But the claims augment each other.
Not contradict each other.

Similar to the rolecops last game.

I'm not lynching Carbon Fiber today. They're not a townread, but not a scumread, and this is just too much a possibility for me to ignore.
I'm never lynching Rancid. They're my strongest townread, and their role makes a ton of sense.

Lynch me, lynch PV, or no-lynch, goddammit. We're not lynching the millers.