Tales of You (Endgame)

[The Fox and the Hound]

Hi everyone!

VOTE: Red Gyarados

For being too shiny. You're hurting my eyes.

~Copper (I have no idea if we're actually signing our posts)

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh, dear sweet christmas.

~Copper

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

Yeah, but if we find out that she's scum apparently we'll just proceed to not lynch her for some reason.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know why we're starting other wagons when we can find Tammy's alignment by bringing them to L-3 before Page 5.

VOTE: Titan

Yeah, but if we find out that she's scum apparently we'll just proceed to not lynch her for some reason.

Mind linking the reference?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=36665
Not anyone's finest hour.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Red Gyarados, why did you feel the need to pretend that wasn't an obvious mastin post? I assumed you were joking in the first place.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also, lol. Mastin is trolling you.

[The Fox and the Hound]

...Yes. Yes, she was.

And I'm actually tempted to agree with your towniness at this point.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't think there is anything you can possibly do to convince me that you're SSK.

[The Fox and the Hound]

In case anyone was wondering, RG are townish for posts 16 and 24. And because I modded FE Awakening and am pretty sure this is notscience.

[The Fox and the Hound]

(I have no idea if we're actually signing our posts)

Me neither! (We're not going to be very decisive this game, are we? )

MastinSSK opening in style!!! Our vote is better though. I don't know if Copper's given me permission to divulge this (sorry Copper!), but our plan is to have Red Gyarados 'almost' lynched, something like this:



and then BAM! PokeBall! Or a more hipster ball if that is your inclination, we're quite flexible. Also, use your imaginations and replace the scyther in the image with a horde of foxes, hounds, sheep, smiley faces and rancid cheese.

My goal this game is to figure out which of

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin) drew town role pms.

This is also quite clear elitism.

Oh ok, I guess we're getting serious now. Fine! And yeah I think Gyara is town too, but the Pokedex!!!!!

Argh stop posting.

Please.

~Tod

[The Fox and the Hound]

Hate to break it to you, here's another post.

I tend to key in on people I've really clicked when working with them as town before, and people I'm terrified of misreading again (I should probably add BRO/Desp in for the second category) which is why I keyed in on those.

Don't worry, I wasn't serious.

ALSO WTF ISNT COPPER A STEALTH HYDRA AS IS??!?!

This is clearly the better version now that it's Copper + Tod!

You only want us cuz we're shiny!

This is not

entirely

true. I have to admit my eyes are often drawn involuntarily to your voluptuous figure. And that tail wiggle.... mmmmm...

Also, do you and notscience communicate outside the thread?

~~

Unvote: Red Gyarados
Vote: CupcakePanda

[The Fox and the Hound]

Don't forget how attractively we bat our eyelashes.

Oh I would never! I was saving that one for later.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

Yes, although I don't really think they were doing it here (yet).

okay so can we just lynch LB today b/c both his/their posts are horrid regardless?

Actually, both of our heads liked and agreed with his first post, if it's the one I think it was. This is also me relatively endorsing the location of our vote. If you still think this you may need to spell it out, though it looks like maybe you don't anymore.

Also, horrid posts?

A player focusing entirely on the game setup and theme stands out as trying not to interact with the players.

And your hydra currently is demanding a few other people you know prove to you that they are town. The line of dialogue whereby you say how obvious it should be you are town suggests a self awareness you are playing up to a known town meta. And self awareness can be a scum tell.

By contrast I have seen rhymes, emotional blackmail, demands of obvious town play, discussion over the setup and one person pretending to be another person in they hydra. Horrid doesn't come close.

This actually seems like a pretty organic reaction to you Tammy, all things considered.

~Copper

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh. Sorry. Is that a functionally random vote, or a real one?

~Copper

[The Fox and the Hound]

okay so can we just lynch LB today b/c both his/their posts are horrid regardless?

Actually, both of our heads liked and agreed with his first post, if it's the one I think it was.
~Copper

Yeah I actually did too but I was just trying to get an aggressive reaction out of him so then Tammy can respond to him with a super duper town post.

I can't explain why I have differing reactions to jokey what-if-I-were-scum posts but I like this one

By contrast I have seen rhymes, emotional blackmail, demands of obvious town play, discussion over the setup and one person pretending to be another person in they hydra. Horrid doesn't come close.

Hey you should be happy it's only at five pages. Last time we all got together in hydras, there was what? 20 something pages in the first 24 hours.

I am honestly disappointed that this didn't happen.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Hi there, SSK.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Because clearly you must have just switched MS accounts too.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I believe what you meant to say was, "Out of hydra post to pretend all these posts aren't me"

[The Fox and the Hound]

I like ffery so far too.

I SEE HOW IT IS!

*doorslam*

Welcome to hydraing with ffery, where everyone is just going to call you ffery.

RG, I assume PV hasn't actually read the thread. And he probably never will.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ugh.

[The Fox and the Hound]

OMG. Mastin drew scum again?

What makes you think so? I don't know the difference, I just know that those posts would come off as scummy to me in a void/if I was naive wrt to the player behind them.

I would like as detailed an answer as you're willing to put the time into giving, and I will read games if I have to.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Mastin's.

[The Fox and the Hound]

His comment on Arthur's obvious joke and self-vote being scummy is lolwtf. Then he called my post confrontational with Nacho and Bork. I wasn't partaking in friendly banter, nor was I pretending to. I wasn't even scum hunting them in that post or being confrontational, nor was I pretending to. It was a simple request or a plea for them to make the alignment of their slot clear so I wouldn't spend my time worrying about them. That he misinterpreted that looks willful, even more so than Lord Business, who doesn't know that we play together often and so there might be a reason why I want to not have to worry about them. He was in Tales of Vesperia too, in which I mislynched Nacho due to incorrectly reading him until it was too late to do anything about it and there were several head butts between Bork's hydra and I until I recognized that they were in fact the vig who's shot I controlled.

This is a good point. From someone who seems to be so interested in/obsessed with 'tone' (which by the way is a really mercurial idea at this point, what do you even mean by that mastin?), to boot. I'm not sure how anyone could read your vote there as serious, nevermind someone even peripherally aware of the way you play mafia.

He then says he won't even take Nacho's word for his read on me based on me saying Nacho will recognize I'm town from my first post. I don't think for one second that he disrespects Nacho's ability in mafia so much that he thinks that Nacho would be swayed by me saying he'll see I'm town from my first post and call me town if he didn't feel it. I mean you only have to look at Too Many Heads to see that Nacho would absolutely come after me if he thought I was scum. He's pretty much the second best person able to read me on this site, and sure I can fool him sometimes for a little while, but it's not from me saying he'll read me as town from my first post. He'll read me as town from my first post because he'll probably recognize the tone there and he'll just be even more convinced as the game goes on. And I don't believe for one second that he actually believes my first post was emotional blackmail. He's played in enough games with me, as town and as scum, to not even entertain that. So, it's complete BS.

And mastin was in that game, too. ;_;
Although I know from Red Wine that you can play a mean scumgame when you want to, I can't help but think we're not going to see this happen this game.

His reads don't feel real.

This is the biggest issue for me. I don't think I could tell the difference between what Mastin just did and what he might have done if he was told who to suspect by a random number generator. I can't follow her logic because she has not provided any and does not appear to think this is something that is expected of her. It's like I'm playing mafia and she's playing fucking bingo or something.

[The Fox and the Hound]

From someone who seems to be so interested in/obsessed with 'tone' (which by the way is a really mercurial idea at this point, what do you even mean by that mastin?), to boot. I'm not sure how anyone could read your vote there as serious, nevermind someone even peripherally aware of the way you play mafia.

Tone was the problem. The self-vote was fake. The following post from the different head far too confrontational. (And, yes. I can't think of a better term, because it really was a confrontation. A direct challenge to Nacho. If that's not confrontational, what do you

call

confrontational?)

I didn't read it that way, more as a cry for help sort of thing. A reach out, if you will. I also feel like Tammy's POV on this can be trusted as there is not actually scum motivation to insist it wasn't confrontational, so I'm gonna go ahead and say my reading is correct.

I don't think I could tell the difference between what Mastin just did and what she might have done if she was told who to suspect by a random number generator.

Odd. Both heads of yours have played with me before and know me just as well.[/quote][/quote]
That doesn't mean I understand you. I will say, I have caveats about your slot, which I will explain at a later date.

~Copper

[The Fox and the Hound]

From someone who seems to be so interested in/obsessed with 'tone' (which by the way is a really mercurial idea at this point, what do you even mean by that mastin?), to boot. I'm not sure how anyone could read your vote there as serious, nevermind someone even peripherally aware of the way you play mafia.

Tone was the problem. The self-vote was fake. The following post from the different head far too confrontational. (And, yes. I can't think of a better term, because it really was a confrontation. A direct challenge to Nacho. If that's not confrontational, what do you

call

confrontational?)

I didn't read it that way, more as a cry for help sort of thing. A reach out, if you will. I also feel like Tammy's POV on this can be trusted as there is not actually scum motivation to insist it wasn't confrontational, so I'm gonna go ahead and say my reading is correct.

I don't think I could tell the difference between what Mastin just did and what she might have done if she was told who to suspect by a random number generator.

Odd. Both heads of yours have played with me before and know me just as well.

That doesn't mean I understand you. I will say, I have caveats about your slot, which I will explain at a later date.

~Copper

Fixed tags.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I saw me first matey rhymed
So I decided to tried
Mastin's prob town
but their buddying me is sound
so scum they may be
We shall see

I don't know about Titan
I'm kinda frightened
That Athena is back
In which case give 'em the rack!

VOTE: Titan

Like this is fucking bullshit. There is no way no how you are comparing me to that game. I couldn't be more different.

Doesn't self awareness of this fact make the defence null?

Yes and no. Tammy is special.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Color me surprised.

That was sarcasm.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And, seriously. The Titan-Fox tagteam is just about as blatant as can be.

Oh, I forgot agreeing with someone was a capital offense in the Talesverse. My bad.

[The Fox and the Hound]

(Okay, granted, we're discussing that a bit. We really think she's scum, but I think a wagon on her going through might not be as productive as on others.)

Hey, look, it's a scumhydra thought process

[The Fox and the Hound]

Cephrir is too involved and engaged with the game which makes me think he might be scum because from what I recall of Empire's game, Cephrir's towngame felt more laid back whereas here, it feels like he is trying to stay on top of things.

How the fuck do you get that I was laid back in that game? LAID BACK? I spent 70% of that game totally flipping my shit, are you kidding me?

Whatever though, it looks like this is gonna be another run-Ceph-up-early game, so I should be hating everything within 10 pages or so

[The Fox and the Hound]

@CF: That makes a little bit more sense I guess. However, the times that I wasn't doing much in that game were also the times when I wasn't under pressure. When someone starts firing at me, I have a tendency to respond with this.

I have more reads than I've been sharing thus far, but they're ephemeral enough to not be worth mentioning yet.

Also, I'm more engaged when I'm not a VT.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Meh, I guess I will then. I was content to just leave them for DV, but if anyone actually cares, I may as well. Obviously I think Titan and RG are town. I also have light townreads on Mac and Lord Business. I'm not seeing massive waves of town yet from some people that I really expect to see them from, but it's only been a day. And at this point I'm falling somewhere in the vicinity of null on you, Mastin, for a variety of reasons. More of a lots-of-good-things-but-also-lots-of-bad-things than an actual null read. But hopefully DV will have some insight on that front.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Cupcake is probably the closest thing I have to a scumread at this point, which admittedly is kind of sad. But I'm a townhunter at heart anyways.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

Pray tell?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I did like that he responded to Mastin that he's not getting lynched this game though. I'm not sure if I see a brazen statement like that coming from him as scum, but.

You have enough experience to know this isn't how it works.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

You usually interact with her much more before you nail down a read as evidenced by We're on a Boat and OCRemix. How did this read come by so quickly without much interaction?
~ F-16

Do you think he's wrong?

I am not sure. I want to hear his thought process. Do you think you did anything in this game that you would be unable to fake if you were scum?

~ F-16

Although I think I might be able to fool bork as scum, I don't think as scum I'd interact with him in quite the same way I've done here. It's a subtlety, but I think it's something that players who know me well probably pick up on.

v.v
I know no one's going to give a damn about my opinion but I think any better-than-slight townreads on you at this point are pretty ridiculous.

I think I like the Clyton reads wall, despite its ending sounding like a 5 paragraph essay.

p-edit: oh dang I agree with mastin what is this even

[The Fox and the Hound]

I may see if I can't solidify that a bit.

Rancid: Leaning Townish, but can easily be scum. He has good points about CarbonFiber's OP in response to Mac's metadive.

PeregrineV: Null but slightly leaning Townish too. Gives off that certain vibe I know of.

Can you go into further detail on these?

The Fox and the Hound: Null. Need more info on something with more substance (not posts regarding who's side you are taking)

I'm getting there.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you ever townread me early day 1 of a game I'll freak the fuck out.

If you ever become obscenely town day 1 of a game, I'll still let you know. 167 did not help, though.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I may see if I can't solidify that a bit.

Rancid: Leaning Townish, but can easily be scum. He has good points about CarbonFiber's OP in response to Mac's metadive.

PeregrineV: Null but slightly leaning Townish too. Gives off that certain vibe I know of.

Can you go into further detail on these?

The Fox and the Hound: Null. Need more info on something with more substance (not posts regarding who's side you are taking)

I'm getting there.

Certainly.

PeregrineV: Some people pointed out his OP as scummy, even questioning him on basis of "do you even know RVS is over?" It is an easy way to get into the game with that kind of OP. However, what if Peregrine legitimately did not even read the thread? What if he was just informing us that he was going to catch up and decided to post that hastily (because he doesn't have time to look back over multiple pages of posts)? When Peregrine was making the post, he simply did not know RVS was over and was under the assumption that it was still going on (it's Day 1 with one day barely passing; you don't expect much progress that early).

In order words, I believe the contents of his post is genuine. Also, better letting us know he's here rather than not posting yet (ElementalHawk).

Rancid: I based off his Towniness based on his exchange with Mac. They make a lot of good points that are very Town-directed. He falls under the same boat as MastinSSK where in Mastin's case, his responses are scummy but how he approaches them are Townish. Likewise, Rancid responses are Townish but how he approaches them can just as easily be scummy (following along the initiator aka Mac). Regardless, he is doing a good job giving off a null read with one head trolling with the pirate approach and the other head hiding behind that trolling head. Either way, he has something to hide.

Hm, alright. What did you mean by "that certain vibe"?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Re-evalauating, The Fox and The Hound look really town. FT and I discussed this read and we are in agreement that Titan, LordBusiness, and The Fox and The Hound are town.

In ISO, everything that Cephrir said resonated with me and makes sense with what I was thinking at the time. My only concern was that I wondered if it is too perfect. The obvtowning of NotScience, the suspicion of Mastin, the townread on Titan, the paranoia on ffery, it feels like a product finished to perfection with all the touch and finesse of an expert. BUT, I'll shut out that paranoia and go with them as towntells and I am deferring to FT a little because I always scumread Cephrir regardless of affiliation in games I am in or spectating. Titan, what do you think of Cephrir so far?

But barring anything major coming up, as NotScience would say, 3 down (Titan, LB, Fox), 13 more to go.

~ F-16

As much as I appreciate the flip around, I must confess it's a little weird.

CupcakePanda is not getting townier.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Catch-up time!

I'm so not feeling the hate on CarbonFiber's opening post. I thought it was rather lovely actually. Genuine-sounding scumhunting without unnecessary 'look at me! I'm so town' add-ons? Rock on! Not that there's anything wrong with unnecessary add-ons of course. But the lack of them at that point in time feels quite town to me! (Copper feels indifferent so this is just a Tod opinion)

I don't like Mastin scumreading my post. I feel that I have changed my posting style a bit recently, but even so I think my posts here so far are much closer to past-town-me and not really anything at all like past-scum-me, so I think it's odd that she got an excited scumread on us for that post.

I'm fairly solidly in the Titan-town camp at 179 and as far as I can tell, Copper was too (not 100% sure though), so I think a vote here is unusual. An explanation would be cool.

Tammy, defy the haters and continue being your wonderful emotional self! <3

Oh we're a team apparently. Cool!

Impression of Carbon Fiber at this stage (page 11) is still town, but I want to discuss with Copper. I would also like to see more FT posts.

The Fox and the Hound: Null. Need more info on something with more substance (not posts regarding who's side you are taking)

This is pretty underwhelming, as I feel we had lots of posts to analyse at this stage?

I'm tired and am going to stop at Page 14. I am thinking of having us push MastinSSK and although Copper's feelings there are... complicated, I think he'd actually like to scumread them, so unless there's some super wacky stuff in the next two pages, I could see that being where we go!

I will probably explain some reads later, but I might try coordinating with Copper first for ~unity~, so I don't know when that'll happen.

[The Fox and the Hound]

But Ffery's hydra's a minor townread. (Overall fferyness just seems town.) Just Sheep Us is *probably* town. (Yes, a guess.) Orc, in spite of basically just stopping in to say "hello", is a decent townread, too. (Content

could

be strong scumplay, but I don't think so.) PV's a very minor townread. (His attitude is sending off all kinds of townbells.)

This paragraph is just really bizarre. I wish you could stop with the "[player who has literally not posted] is town" crap, I'm trying to give you a fair chance here but that isn't helping. The cogdis of your read on PV is also disconcerting.

Also @wheover asked me about ffery-

It sounds different. Like, the hatred of the role pm seeps into her being.

I, conversely, strongly prefer scum. What makes you so sure that wouldn't affect our tone?

Ffery may think you're town, but getting townread for no goddamn reason sets off a lot of klaxons in

my

skull.

Good. It should.

After the game empire pointed out a couple of reasons I should never had read ffery as scum past like the second page anyway.

I'm not giving you those reasons this game.

This seems like oddly good posting to me?

~Copper

[The Fox and the Hound]

CarbonFiber, I just found your reversal to be kind of sudden- but IIRC you did the same thing in 169, didn't you?
So to answer Tod's implicit question, I /think/ so. Especially because of a particular reason for reading someone that was brought up in private and has pretty much never occurred to me before. I think I'm beginning to see the appeal of hydras as vehicles for learning to scumhunt.

Also, my second quote stripe in 416 is not intended to say anything about RG specifically.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Hydra partners are a reasonable explanation, and FT did post that we were town before you did. And Tod thinks you're town anyway. So, sure.

I agree with 418- if anything I got a little bit of a townvibe from their one post.

~Copper

[The Fox and the Hound]

This page is actually kind of beautiful. I don't even want to sully it with my presence. ffery gets a town lean and CF looks good too. The mutual pressuring seems right to me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And this is a vote to pressure her to speak up. I doubt a lynch can be made for her today.

Why do you feel the need to say it's a pressure vote out loud? This is bad because saying a vote is pressure weakens the effect of the pressure.

You're correct, but why is this scummy?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Point is, Elemental's basically doing one of those classic scum-tells -- calling Mastin + us scummy, but preparing to vote for us, not Mastin. Assuming Mastin is scum, Elemental is pretty much guaranteed scum.

-FT

I seem to be missing what you're talking about here.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know that "depth" is the word I'd use to describe what she was complaining about. I also get the feeling that she simply feels something is off and is having trouble putting it into words. I'm beginning to lean town on them after the prodding of your slot last page, that's one of the things I'm looking for. Admittedly, I didn't think all that carefully about the way she went about it particularly. But as I expressed in 474, I have them in a bit of an uptrend at present. Also, how does it not make sense, anyway? Just with regard to it not being different from F-16's normal behavior?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Depth does seem like the wrong word, yes. I can agree that F-16's townreads are explained pretty thoroughly.

I thought the exchange looked town because "this is the sort of thing ffery does normally", not because of the details. I'm certainly not sold enough on that to attempt to explain her thought process for her, and (perhaps selfishly) would have no objections to seeing that conversation continue anyway. I suppose I could take a stab at the follow-up element though, I could see it feeling a little like you're playing solitaire, getting reads but not pushing on them?

I think I'm a fan of you reaching out to me in the first place, but I'm afraid the art of the dance may yet be a bit beyond my reach.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Really sorry, but I won't be able to do this tonight. I've told Ceph not to worry too much about my reads for the moment, but I'm hoping to be back in the swing of things by tomorrow night.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why do people keep insisting LB is an alt when he clearly isn't?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why do people keep insisting LB is an alt when he clearly isn't?

He most definitely is an alt.

I don't understand, but...okay?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am back!! And I'll try my best to make it for good.

Nacho just told me that he's been posting early reads in our old Hydra QT from Legend of Zelda and I had no idea

He's got Tammy early town from (paraphrasing) genuine vesperia frustration + early reaching to/sorting of notscience head
LB/MastinSSK/RG are all early town reads for him too and I don't object to any of them (although I might still call LB null).

-b

p-edit: why did you use the term 'that was not

the

post I would have called you town for' (emphasis mine) as if you knew beforehand there was going to be one (but not necessarily which one).

What were Nacho's thoughts of us here? (Sorry to be focusing on Nacho's read and not yours, but there is a reason for it).

I remember grilling Tammy
She was in quite the fright
I assume she towned it up
Which was the goal of the night

unvote

What was so town about Tammy after you voted that wasn't there before you did?

I will say (and I think I've said before) that I actually like the idea of labeling a pressure vote as a 'pressure vote' because then if it's scum they know they're being scrutinised and then they freak out and WAMBAMJAM scum caught! (Well it might not work exactly like that but you get the idea).

Hmmm if I'm reading something right with mastin, I don't know if I suspect them more OR if I should go lol cabd game could be town. By play they're scum, but there's a tiny blip that makes me wonder when he hints about his role.

This is where I'm at right now too. :/

so which of the ceph/DV hydra is doing the super hardcore buddying?

I will buddy you until you bleed!!

CarbonFiber, what do you think of the softclaiming and what it suggests regarding mastinSSK's alignment? I haven't gotten the chance to discuss this with Copper, and at first I just dismissed it as not incredibly alignment-relevant, but it's gotten to the point where I think it could be quite excessive for scum. I know that I am more inclined to excessively hint at my role as town, for example. It's possible I won't get the chance to do a proper live correspondence (beyond a few minutes at a time) with Ceph for a while, so here's what I said in our QT after ISOing MastinSSK the night I caught up (I'm not going to make it more refined though as I'm probably not even pushing a vote here):

-I dont believe mastin's read of my post. Combine this with her thing with Titan (plus the way she backs down on the read seems incredibly sleazy to me, but I might try explaining that better later).
-As I said, the whole not trusting Nacho thing is ridiculous and has no good reason behind it.
-Implying that we're scum with Titan is ridiculous also? I might expect it from someone new but I don't think it's an accepted thing that scum buddy together that much, so I think they're just sore.
-215 is just 'oh look we're thinking this through we're so town' crap. 218 too.
-I think the crumbing is too showy.
-228 too!!!
-And the vote flipping

In general, I think there is such a 'look how town I am!' quality to many of their posts that I actually have a pretty passionate scumread on them. Their role stuff does make me cautious though, so I'd like to see what else they post and get their claim.

~~

But again, as I said, I'm not sure if I want their claim now, and while Ceph didn't disagree with my mastinSSK thoughts, he didn't exactly suggest lynching them either, so I'm not exactly sure what he thinks right now.

So yeah, that's where my thoughts are at anyway (nothing MastinSSK has posted since then has changed much except the more enthusiastic softclaiming). Agreements/disagreements would be much appreciated.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Although Nacho will probably call DV town >_>

There is the odd occasion where he doesn't. Usually we're either townbuddies or scumbuddies though so it's ok!

re: anyone asking about Nacho:

I haven't been able to make any contact with him since he posted in our hydra QT (and I subsequently first posted his initial reads). If I didn't mention your slot in that post, he didn't comment about your slot.

-b

No problem Bork. When Nacho gets here he just needs to explain why he hasn't called us (me) town yet!

~~

Regarding MastinSSK, I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from (and this is my fault). By 'look how town I am', I don't mean the arrogance. I mean that many parts of their posts feel fabricated in order to look town without there being any other point to it. This is not something I've felt about Mastin at least in my other games with her.

Urgh noo! I am so bad.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This paragraph is just really bizarre. I wish you could stop with the "[player who has literally not posted] is town" crap, I'm trying to give you a fair chance here but that isn't helping. The cogdis of your read on PV is also disconcerting.

This is especially concerning.

I can't imagine what could be concerning about that?

(Another helpful hint, you can differentiate legitimate wagons on me from not-right-and-maybe-scumdriven-wagons on me by that factor. There's actually solid reasoning that you just "get" for me being scum? I'm scum. You don't understand the wagon? That's because I'm actually town.)

Half the time, you're aware of how arrogant you are. The other half, you're so arrogant I want to smack you upside the head. This is one of the latter moments.

But again, as I said, I'm not sure if I want their claim now, and while Ceph didn't disagree with my mastinSSK thoughts, he didn't exactly suggest lynching them either, so I'm not exactly sure what he thinks right now.

I'm conflicted. If someone I'd never seen before came out and started playing like mastin has in this game, I would lynch them instantly. Objectively, I think their posts are scummy. They never give reasons for their suspicions, and when they do the reasons are explained really poorly, which is odd for someone who manages to post so many words. I've felt like they were trying to stuff CF into a scumbox at times just like they are accusing CF of doing to them. And I really don't like it when someone has a scumread on me yet can't give one solitary passable reason for it except to quote my posts and add the logical equivalent of "ew". But this is mastin. Spectating Vesperia I had him wrong early on for very similar reasons, and was never able to convince myself the slot was town even when I started getting reasons to. On the one hand, my gut is telling me she's scum, and I've been slowly discovering that my gut is better than my head lately, though in theory having DV's head too should be helping (and, I'm somewhat confident, already is). On the other, players who know mastin better than I do are calling her town and seem to feel pretty strongly about it. And when I've been in situations like that in the past, I have usually been wrong. (I'm also wrong more often than a RNG I'm pretty sure, but whatever. I should go back through my games someday and find out whether this is literally true.)

It's as I said before. You either get that we're town, or you don't. Like, there's no better way to describe it. No tell. No defense. Heck, no role. No play. Nothing changes those. Perhaps those things contribute to the whole. But ultimately, you either understand or you don't.

Excuse me, I'll have to go check my magic 8-ball, since apparently you are impossible to read without the aid of magic. Oh wait, no, I just don't believe you.

I'm really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally not liking Fox/Hound's posting, by the way.

What is the point of continuing to do this? Do you think adding more Es will get us lynched?

I do wonder why mastin didn't just link your iso and call it "ragey" as there are some posts there that can only be called "ragey" if your dictionary defines "ragey" as inquisitive and reasonable sounding.

Because it's not the entirety of his iso that's ragey? I'm too lazy to explain why each and every one of the ones I linked to was ragey, but I CAN select the posts that have the rageyness strongest in them to give you a better idea of what I mean.

This delivery was incredibly lackluster.

Do you think I am wrong about Mastin or should look at anyone else in particular?
Regarding Clyton's posts, they do sound unemotional but I am fairly sure that's his playstyle. I disagree with his view of the gamestate so that's something that should unravel as we get more content from him and he could be looking at it from a different POV.

This really.
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally.
Looks like scum manipulation to me. Like. I dunno how to best explain it. This is me, what I do as scum, trying to manipulate specific players? I'm not sure I can explain it better, but I can think of a game that kinda sorta can show what I mean. Read this post, and then read my posts in Too Many Heads, to see what I mean. This is the type of post I made towards the AP/ETL/Guyett hydra in particular, who I was mega-buddying mostly out of fear and necessity.

Do you really? Really really really REALLY really?

You, not able to explain something? Fancy that. I just wish I could tell whether or not that's because you're making shit up.

Suffice to say I continued to want to angrily quotestripe the rest of this post, but I won't bother as it would not be terribly productive.

Bork's posting of

Kagura

feels very town on a re-read. I think by waiting for Nacho, I was missing the obvious. The way Bork engages with arguments gives me strong vibes from the first two Tales games and I didn't feel the same tone when following a scum game of his (We The Purple). His question to NotScience in Post 72 mirrored what FT and I initially wondered as well regarding NotScience's read on SSK. I also like his engagement with Rancid in Post 472 and it matches up with the critical thinking and assertively inserting himself into arguments that I've seen in Tales of Vesperia where he engaged Cait Sith on their arguments very specifically going over the details and he comes acrosss the same way tonally. I feel I was kinda missing the obvious with this read here. ffery, do you think I am on the right track? Because I'd probably bank more on my townread here than other previous reads which are growing a lot more stale. I am confident in this read even without hearing from Nacho at all.

I was not feeling as much glorious town light as I was told to expect here, but I'm starting to come around. In particular I think it was 623? where I just was seeing some pretty substantial townposting. I would like Nacho to get in here already, all the same, even though I've recently learned the hard way that I can't read him worth shit.

Also, as this was brought up peripherally at some point, I have made most of our posts thus far.

~Copper/Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm reluctant to use the meta tells
I've discussed elsewhen and elsewhere
By now Ceph should do quite well
at hitting those markers square

I've actually been passively concerned about my usual baselines swapping places for a couple games now and potentially getting me in trouble. Simply because playing with people I expect to be able to read me decently well (or who at least are aware of my tropes) should make me more confident when I'm town and less as scum. But I think it's fair to start moving towards throwing those out given ASOIAF, as much as the contrary might benefit me as both alignments. I think I know which of my things still hold to some degree and which are basically dead, though? But I'm not telling anyways~

[The Fox and the Hound]

Cephrir, why did MastinSSK using a lot of eeee's annoy you? You did the same thing here as town in response to MafiaSSK.

What annoys me is the uselessness of repeatedly linking to my posts, saying she doesn't like them, and pretending doing that enough counts as a reason to scumread me. She seems pretty convinced we're scum, but isn't pushing me except by stating that opinion over and over and over again. The Es bit is just sass.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Regarding MastinSSK, I think people are misunderstanding where I'm coming from (and this is my fault). By 'look how town I am', I don't mean the arrogance. I mean that many parts of their posts feel fabricated in order to look town without there being any other point to it. This is not something I've felt about Mastin at least in my other games with her.

What do you make of his early certainty in townreads and choices of players to townread for various reasons?
~ F-16

The certainty is something that I feel could come from Mastin as either alignment. I don't really get much from the choices of townreads either. You could be right that some of the choices were deliberate, but I'm not actually sure if scum use things such as influence as reasons for their reads (but if you do this as scum then my point has become invalid). For me, at least, my reads when scum are more influenced by what I think I can most convincingly fake than anything else.

~~

I also hope to be pushing scumreads more when I have less going on. (Only 1 more day!! )

[The Fox and the Hound]

Cephrir specifically tailors his play to the playerlist. When going up against players who know his scum meta, he can and has

perfectly

fooled them. The contemporary Maniacal Street Mafia and 165 games, as Bulbazak described, helped illustrate that skill. He'll be whatever he needs to be to make people townread him, and townread him they will. I believe he got a Don Corelone nomination, and if not, was on the level he could have gotten one. Basically, though...you've played with him? He's played with you, knows he played with you, and will have adapted to having played with you.

I don't read Cephrir off of meta. He's one of the only players who I will read purely. 100%. On just their play in the game.
...And on that note, he's still a scumread, albeit a minor one.

This had me grinning like an idiot :3
Apparently I am susceptible to flattery.

(Another helpful hint, you can differentiate legitimate wagons on me from not-right-and-maybe-scumdriven-wagons on me by that factor. There's actually solid reasoning that you just "get" for me being scum? I'm scum. You don't understand the wagon? That's because I'm actually town.)

Half the time, you're aware of how arrogant you are. The other half, you're so arrogant I want to smack you upside the head. This is one of the latter moments.

I strongly suspect the behavior you mention is because of my mental health issues, but eh, I'm slowly dealing with those. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut...the post you're quoting? Isn't one of those moments. No arrogance. Just truth. You either understand me or don't. Players who understand me (of which there are less than a handful--AP and Muffin being the only two I can think of off the top of my head) just

get

me. Players who don't, well, don't.

But it also applies to the bit about the difference between legitimate and not-legitimate wagons on me. A wagon on a scum-me makes sense. It's something I have trouble fighting off, because it's true and I can't really defend; the best I can do is deflect. The wagon is solid, with solid town players, and it's a miracle each time that I skate by. A wagon on a town-me doesn't make nearly as much sense. It just appears, and is there. It's something that I easily could fight off, but choose not to, in part because of that mindset--it's not true, so I really don't bother putting in the effort to defend myself.

There are a lot of words here, but they don't mean much of anything to me.

They never give reasons for their suspicions, and when they do the reasons are explained really poorly, which is odd for someone who manages to post so many words.

Again, both heads know me and should know better.

I don't think it is actually within my ability to convince myself that this sort of thing comes from a town mindset, even though I'm aware that you always do it.
I can't help but wonder whether it might not be a coincidence that DV and I are both getting the same vibes, but with so many players disagreeing, I'm thinking we might be smart to step away from you and watch for a while.

Excuse me, I'll have to go check my magic 8-ball, since apparently you are impossible to read without the aid of magic.

This is actually a very, VERY accurate description. (It's also true of how I scumhunt, as I told ETL in our Faith Healer game.) Offense, defense, whatev. It's just...

there

.

:S
It's weird to me that you simultaneously think we should realize you're town, obvtown even, and yet admit that you are hard to read. V.V

you're talking to me like you think i'm town

What is the significance of this?

Orc feels town too.
~ F-16

You're gonna have to lay that one out for me, I don't get it.
Still, I'm not likely to either. I hold orc to high standards and he's not even approaching them yet, but he can have some time.

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

It's worth noting that I think I have a little bit of a particular metascumtell on orc that I'm looking for this game. Something I've noticed after 3 games with him & watching Vesperia. It's not something I'm likely to see one way or the other for a while, and that's all I plan on saying on this matter for now.

[The Fox and the Hound]

What is the significance of this?

I feel like I laid out why I asked this in like the next line of that post

Less approachable in other games as which alignment? Or just in general? If the latter, then who cares?

[The Fox and the Hound]

OK. I think that was what I wanted you to say. I guess it's not surprising that I look favorably upon early ffery paranoia

[The Fox and the Hound]

You're gonna have to lay that one out for me, I don't get it.

The way Orc pointed out a post from me and said that it isn't part of my meta and then realized he was confusing me with FT felt genuine. I don't see the point of faking it as scum. While it is possible he could be scum that was genuinely confused, I don't think it is likely because of the way he approached it, pro-actively asking ffery to help him out there. I also felt his overall demeanor felt lighter and more natural than Tales of Vesperia. You were in the spectator QT with me watching. Do you disagree and do you have any comments about any of other reads?
~ F-16

He's still on trial as far as I'm concerned. I don't think there's any doubt his mix-up was legitimate, but I don't care about it very much. By comments on other reads, I will assume you mean the list you just gave. I'm gonna make this post then go find it.

@orc: Agreed, Hawk is not looking too great.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Tammy, here's who I think is town (will provide reasons later): Titan, Kagura, Mac, Fox, Breakfast, Orc, Red Gyarados, Lord Business
Scum are among: Rancid, MastinSSK, JustSheepUs, Cupcake, Clyton, ElementalHawk, Yukari, PereV

I need to refine this list a little and I'll re-read each of them to make sure.
~ F-16

I have a readlist from DV that's a couple days old so I'll refer to that as well.
Titan: Agreed.
Kagura: I'm leaning this way. DV is waiting on Nacho to judge substantially.
Mac: Wouldn't put this nearly as strongly as you do, but yes. DV wanted to do some research.
Breakfast: We're both leaning town.
Orc: Wasn't really here yet when DV posted this. I have no opinion yet.
RG: Probably.
LB: Probably, but DV was more hesitant.

Of your scumpool, our only disagreement with you is Clyton. We both feel he's town. The rest range from null to scummy.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sorry to everyone for my recent absence. Catching up now.

In what frame of mind did this "classic" scum-tell make sense to you? We aren't playing a "classic" style. We are a hydra. I feel like MastinSSK is scum, Dice feels like you are scum, I made the first vote, we haven't come to a consensus about changing the vote so he decided to post some of his early reads. Sounds to me like you are lining up lynches here.

If CarbonFiber is lining up lynches as you say and is scum, then that means he's trying to get his partner (MastinSSK) lynched followed by you, which doesn't seem very worth it for scum? If MastinSSK is town, then there's no lining up of lynches at all, so I don't understand your point.

on the contrary, we're doing a 100% self-meta game.

Explain why you are the alignment you are in the next post!

Is it just me or would this actually be a useful question to ask people?

~~

Vote: ElementalHawk

This vote is Fox + Hound approved.

[The Fox and the Hound]

YESSSSSS

[The Fox and the Hound]

YESSSSSS

~other head

[The Fox and the Hound]

We should rename ourselves 'Nacho's Groupies' or something.

[The Fox and the Hound]

hey DV I currently don't have a townread on you
how does that make you feel?

Is this a joke?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Do you think you'd have the balls as scum to scumread me a second time in a row?

PEdit: It might be.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Do you think you'd have the balls as scum to scumread me a second time in a row?

PEdit: It might be.

Obviously.
Guess you have to look at your play this game and tell me if it makes sense for me not to be townreading you.
What do you think?

I've been pretty town this game (I know there are times when I'm town and it doesn't show so well but this is not one of those times), so the only way I see you not seeing it is if you're scum going for the big move of NOT townreading DV!!! I mean it'd be all nice looking and rebellious because why not go for the easy option of townreading me like you always do as scum? But the big ??? is that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Unless this is all some ploy to make me ~react~ in which case I don't think it's very funny?

PEdit: Orci, I think you might have the wrong head.

PEdit: Ok?

[The Fox and the Hound]

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

Because I'm town and you're you and even though this sounds incredibly and awfully sappy, usually you're the one to townread me when no one else does!

[The Fox and the Hound]

And the last time I felt I was town and you didn't you were scum so....

[The Fox and the Hound]

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

Because I'm town and you're you and even though this sounds incredibly and awfully sappy, usually you're the one to townread me when no one else does!

the why was referring more to what have you done that is town

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum. I would have had to fake my thoughts on Mastin to look like I'd posted them in a hydra QT two days prior and I don't go to those kinds of lengths as scum. That was the only time I thought as I was posting that I was being really town, but I think I've been quite town and unlike scum-me throughout as I've mentioned before, and Tammy's townread in particular makes me more confident that you would recognise this.

Nacho, if you're town, you need to stop this and show me that you are, because I'm trying to think of reasons why you're not scum here and I'm struggling.

Also, why does Mastin's claim need to be a fakeclaim?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Tammy, are you here?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Tammy, are you here?

halfway! I'm here, but my brain is thinking about it.

Ok, when you're ready, thoughts on Kagura would be appreciated.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This will have to wait until tomorrow. I'm about to pass out.

I lean town there though, but I'm guessing you want me to actually talk about it, so! Tomorrow.

That's fine.

[The Fox and the Hound]

hey DV I currently don't have a townread on you
how does that make you feel?

I'm not DV, but somewhere far short of pleased. Especially given that it sounds like DV's past experience with you resembles my own. I fully expect to hear you give me some shit about Ice and Fire here, but the fact is that you've never been wrong about me when we've both been town, so this is really not working for me. This is a strong playerlist, and one in which scumcho would be pretty short on easy mislynches. Meanwhile, you know that I am an easy mislynch without someone to whiteknight me, and you are supposed to be that someone. Once again I find myself thinking of Open 527, where you scumread me for vague reasons and guess what, they were bull.

I did have a townread on bulder, but this takes precedence very easily, I don't know shit about him. It looks to me, to us actually, as much as our first reactions in private were to make excuses because we want you to be town, like perhaps you've decided not to even try to fool us here. You know that you can't expect me to throw myself in front of a train for you ever again after 169. I'm still pissed at myself for that, I really believed I could trust my own top townreads and that I at least had one thing I could do better than a die roll in this game, but apparently not. If I'm no longer a source of towncred for scumyou, scumyou's best play is quite possibly to get rid of me ASAP while it's still easy.

I could be wrong. Maybe DV is actually secretly playing in a way that looks like scum DV. I wouldn't know. But he's been pretty town from my naive standpoint. Maybe I'm weird this game for some reason that I don't see or understand and I wish you'd tell me what it is if so, so we can talk about it and I can convince DV that everything is my fault all the time always. My automatic reaction to the snarky way you presented this was that it felt genuine, but I know at this point that you are capable of convincing me you're genuine when you aren't. So the answer is "very, very nervous." The worst part of all this could be that I know perfectly well that I will never win an argument against you. I'm sure you would have no trouble getting me lynched in any game at any time if you decided to do so, because I'm godawful at arguments as you well know, all the moreso when I'm town. I'm still holding out some kind of hope that this is some sort of stupid reaction test, but I'm honestly a little hurt if it is.

What I'm hearing about your mutual past with DV is really not helping either. Here's a couple snippets.

And the thing is, I'm not familiar with your meta so I don't know when it comes to you, but I think I've been quite town despite my limited content and Tammy's townread on me makes me more confident of this (she's generally slower to townread me than Nacho is), so I don't understand why Nacho as town here wouldn't be. Also Nacho has made it quite clear that I'm part of his non-townread so I wouldn't worry about you. I don't think it makes much sense for him to scumread us as scum, but I'm worried it makes less sense as town.

YUP.

The only time he was scum and me-town he tried the same thing but I think he ended up backing off eventually. Not sure if he has the balls to scumread me a second time in a row as scum, but he might intend to be doing this to look town (i.e. it would be much easier for him to just townread me as scum). Problem is that I think I've been pretty town this game, so why is he not townreading me????

And this is a pretty good incidental summary of your trajectory on me in 169. So... help me find a reason why you aren't just scum, we're both grasping here. And it's going to have to be better than "oh pff you think I'd do that again" because yes, yes I do.

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

Because I'm town and you're you and even though this sounds incredibly and awfully sappy, usually you're the one to townread me when no one else does!

For anyone who's not aware, this is true of both of our heads. Hence our discomfort.

And the last time I felt I was town and you didn't you were scum so....

Hello both of our me town/nacho scum games, how are you today.

-Ceph, obviously

[The Fox and the Hound]

i mean you obviously know what i'm doing here is asking you to expand on your full thought process for ffery-town and how strongly you feel about things so that i can see her reaction, right?

yeah except i don't really want to explain my full thought process for fery-town yet

which is why i linked you to the part where i said it was a discussion that i'll save until later

Vote: Fox and the Hound

maybe

i'm waiting to see how their read on me develops

unless you have something to show me that will convince me that i won't need to wait?

I get how we're going to be a little weird automatically this game. I also am pretty lost about what I'm supposed to look for in you at this point, because I thought you were pretty town in Vesperia, though like I said I may have picked up one thing. But I guess your read on me is going to have to wait because I am not particularly feeling anything about you yet, at least on a surface level, putting aside the "fuck I have no idea how to read orc what do I do" bit.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Research being?

I remembered that every game we'd played together had you replacing out early on and I was wondering whether it was alignment-indicative that you were actually really getting into this game. I am still conflicted here. Every town game of yours that I could find from my experience with you and a couple of your more recent ones, you replaced out (except for a hydra game) and the only scumgame I looked at was one where you stayed in and produced content (it was a previous Tales game). The problem is that thinking like this has burned me before and both Ceph and I think you look town from your play here.

I will ask though, was there a reason why you replaced out in so many of your previous games and not here?

Foxy doesn't come off great from the interactions with Nacho around about 850>#860. Like he's trying to manipulate Nacho into townreading him by laying down the threat of a scumread.

The only thing that gives me pause is why they feel Nacho would care about a scumread when he's being pretty much transparent town right now.

The problem is that I don't think he's that transparently town, and him not townreading me is actually a big deal!

Except there's literally nothing in there that doesn't look like it's easily a scum conversation, just slightly reworded? Like, I have no doubt that conversation happened, mostly as depicted. I just don't see how it's an alignment-indicative conversation, since with just the slightest of filters, the scum conversation changes to look town. So you wouldn't be faking anything; you'd just be slightly editing something. (The best weapon scum has is the truth.)

You may be right I guess, but we're town so it really shouldn't matter.

Meanwhile, you know that I am an easy mislynch without someone to whiteknight me, and you are supposed to be that someone.

This is me too! This hydra was meant to be.

[The Fox and the Hound]

But the only reason you're not seeing him as town is because he's not reading you as town - and your refusal to see it from a different perspective other than "no townread, must be scum" is worrying.

Like you're not even considering Nacho can be town AND wrong, you've just launched an assault on why he's scum.

I am worried that Nacho not townreading me is influencing me more than it should, but although his posts are townish, I don't think anything couldn't be faked by scum, and I think I'm pretty obviously considering that he's town and wrong. The problem here is that Nacho always townreads me to the point where it's become a running joke, even once when I was scum on an alt and a popular scumread. Do I think Nacho could catch me as scum now? Yeah, probably. It's been a long time since I've been scum against him. But would he not townread me when I'm town and think I'm quite transparently so? I don't think so.

Trust me that I really want Kagura to be town and prove us wrong somehow, but I think the possibility that they're scum and no one's seeing it is a very real one.

[The Fox and the Hound]

RG, do you have a solitary read that is even slightly controversial?

[The Fox and the Hound]

The reason I was able to use that argument to good effect in ice and fire is because it was based in fact. It's unfortunate, because that probably means my response will only make Nacho suspect me more if he's town, and gives him a pretty easy way to push me harder if he isn't, but that's how I actually feel.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm having flashbacks to every cephrir-scum game that I've ever seen

Except for 165 but fuck that game anyways

So like, one game?

[The Fox and the Hound]

In swagtown, nacho suspected you, and I think looking back at that game you were transparently town.

I think he thought I was town there?

I also get what you say about how he could just be wrong, and I think it's possible that it's gotten to the point where Ceph and I have built each other up to a state of extreme paranoia, but the paranoia remains, and I still think Nacho not townreading us is odd at the very least.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I mean there's a difference between 'DV might be town, but not sure' and 'DV I don't townread you har har'.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm not seeing where he did, but I'm probably wrong and it's not very important anyway.

As for Kagura here, I still don't know. I really want to see more posts from Nacho.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ugh Nacho, please if you're town just show me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Hey it's totally fine. Don't worry about it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm not DV, but somewhere far short of pleased. Especially given that it sounds like DV's past experience with you resembles my own. I fully expect to hear you give me some shit about Ice and Fire here, but the fact is that you've never been wrong about me when we've both been town, so this is really not working for me. This is a strong playerlist, and one in which scumcho would be pretty short on easy mislynches. Meanwhile, you know that I am an easy mislynch without someone to whiteknight me, and you are supposed to be that someone. Once again I find myself thinking of Open 527, where you scumread me for vague reasons and guess what, they were bull.

Look.

I'm not Nacho and you're not DV, but how are you not taking Nacho's post as anything besides a reachout/pressure to get a read? Because that is pretty transparently what it is.
You said "bulder (fucking really? did you just read vesperia where orc did that on purpose?) looked town". There's a pretty good reason for that - I am town and I'm really easy to read (as stated by plenty of others around the thread).

I'm curious: should others be hard townreading you at this point in the game, in your opinion?

-b

I guess it could be that...
DV and I have been all over a rabbit hole, into and out of it and all around, since we saw those posts, between "maybe we're stoking each other's paranoia fires too much and we're just going insane" to "what if we're right? No one else will ever see it". You are right that I shouldn't throw my read on you out the door. I suppose that was kind of unfair... And given that ffery thinks you're town and I think there's a pretty decent chance she's town, and I know perfectly well she's more qualified to handle your slot than I am, maybe if I was smart I would sheep her. But I don't really do that.
I'm not used to being reached out to, I'm used to no one caring about my opinion, so I guess that could be something I'd miss... I guess I should stop losing my head at least until we get clarification.

Should others be hard townreading me yet? Probably not, speaking for myself at least. It makes sense to me that there would be a lot of hesitance to trust me, and I'm not surprised about that. The actual scumreads I was not expecting, and they do put me on edge. I still have a mafia-victim-complex from my lynchbait days, even though it's becoming less justified. I feel reasonably good about my ability to demonstrate I'm town, but the possibility of not getting that chance scares me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Should others be hard townreading me yet? Probably not, speaking for myself at least.

I get the pathos stuff - this is actually pretty much exactly how I feel when more than a few people in a game fuck up their read on me.

But you don't really seem concerned with most of the playerlist, emotionally (or at least you weren't until Nacho did it).
Why is the Nacho read on you such a special case to you?

-b

History. We were scumbuddies in one of my first games back on the site, and since then that insight into my scum thought process, he's been pretty good at reading me. There was a time I would have said perfect Sometimes it takes him a couple days to figure out that I'm scum when I am, but he

always

usually figures it out, and when I'm town he knows it. It started as being one of the few who understands how I work in terms of natural inclinations (at a basic level, I'm unconfident and wishy-washy as town, and superconfident and aggressive as scum). I've improved from that open-book baseline as both alignments, but the point remains, my default expectation is to be whiteknighted regardless of his alignment (and I literally always need it day 1), and he has only ever scumread me incorrectly when he was scum, or (once) very briefly. There is most definitely more emotion attached to that read for me than that of anyone else who's expressing serious suspicion of me. And quite possibly anyone else at all.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Okay so, I'm going to ramble a bit. If I don't make sense, don't mind me, I've been swamped under a pile of grading and my brain is fried. I'm leaning town, I want to even say they're a strong town read but I'm slightly held back there. I'm not even sure why really. Arthur has them as a scum read, but he didn't respond to my questions about his reads this weekend. Basically bork looks town, and I'm somewhat dependent on others for reaffirming that read. So far ferry and Orc seem to have him as strong town so I'm somewhat comforted there. I suppose they could all be scum doing the kumbaya were not distancing dance but it doesn't feel that way. Nachos a little different for me. His tone has occasionally been stilted but he also feels more free and lighthearted. I recently misread nacho for awhile in vesperia, and in not being able to see where he was town in that game I think I've added more markers to read him with. Anyway, I liked his comments to orci, and I can see his comments to you. One of the things he told me in vesperia was that after ice and fire he was rethinking some of his biases in an effort to not get so blindsided again, so in that regard I could see him being a little more cautious.

I think I might have overreacted to Nacho's entrance, as looking back there's really nothing to contradict bork's claim that he was merely trying to get a read on me/us and I actually like his posts when looking back at it objectively. This still means he wasn't townreading me though which is concerning and remains a surprise to me, and I think the only time he's gone so far as voting me before was N's game where he was scum, which I believe is where a large part of my concern is coming from. Ceph is pretty much where I'm at on this and right now I'm concerned enough about the possibility that we have inappropriately fueled each other's paranoia there that I'm willing to hold off on getting carried away ]and reconsider things later, and I imagine Ceph will be happy with this too. I think that's close to what our plan's been the whole time though, as it's not like we've decided to lynch Kagura or anything (yet ).
Also, is bork being town meta-based or based on his play here?

Your predecessor was pretty scummy but I'm leaning town due to the replace

What did you find town about him?

[The Fox and the Hound]

So orc, do you want to hear why you have zero business thinking you can play the meta card on me or are you determined to be obstinate about this

[The Fox and the Hound]

This whole "I'm soooo town for no reason" "You're soooo scum for no reason" deal is a massive distraction from anyone accomplishing anything at all.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Scumread on AP slot quickly evaporating. Mine is anyways.

Not that it's looking incredibly likely that it'll matter.

[The Fox and the Hound]

@Foxboy: Why would your (lack of) scumread on me not matter? Ar you already resolved to getting lynched or something?

Little bit. If I don't though I'll probably still be something other than a universal townread which is the only time anyone ever listens to me so

(Symphonia II was actually ditched by team symphonia to work on vesperia, leading to a very subpar sequel cranked out by team Legendia)

It had its high points.

Okay just one really.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Then again, maybe people listen to DV. Do people listen to DV?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Then again, maybe people listen to DV. Do people listen to DV?

LOL

[The Fox and the Hound]

absolutely nothing, aside from "orcinus is stupid enough to still rely on replace out=town, most of the time"

So then how does your read there change from leaning scum to leaning town?

PV, I am confused as to how quoting the post helped at all?

We'll also probably be changing our vote but not sure where to yet. Stay tuned!

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sheep, why is mastinSSK under the line?

[The Fox and the Hound]

You certainly know how to make friends don't you angry pigeon.

And whoever it was that called me an AP alt, I do hope you weren't referring to this guy. His posts have been a reflection of the early pressure mastinSSK put him under.

Plain and simple he appears to be panicking.

unvote
Vote angry pigeon

You want to try and select me as the scapegoat, away you go. You can even scream OMGUS now.

This doesn't seem like it's a thing that is actually happening at all.

scumlist thing

Talk to us about Cupcake and Clyton. Otherwise we're not actually far off, which kind of surprises me.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ma Chere Mademoiselles, it is with deepest pride
and greatest pleasure
that we welcome you tonight (or today depending on what timezone you're in!).
And now we invite you to relax,
let us pull up some rope
as The Fox and the Hound proudly present....

....

our vote!

(I know it's the wrong movie, but it's Disney so all the same thing right?)

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

Know that our vote is made with love, and that your name is also Brittany (who would have guessed it?). Orc and Yukari were probably Kurt and Rick respectively but our heart (do we have one or two between us? I'm not sure) is all yours. <3

Copper may be better able to elaborate on his points, but these are the main things behind our read:

-The biggest thing for me was the vote on Titan at 176, where both Ceph and I were thinking they were solidly town, followed by the unvote in 433 because Tammy apparently 'towned it up'. The problem here is that Tammy had actually towned it up before they even voted, and I don't see how there was any different towning up after that. So I think the read/votes here aren't genuine (i.e. scum).
-Ceph didn't like the gladiate threat and mentioned that you were deliberately worthless so that's probably part of it for him.
-Also, even though this came in after we had decided to put our vote here, we both think that 1159 was scummy. I can point to Song Contest U-Pick, where out-of-touch-with-the-game Nati is much more apathetic than actually angry, being open about not being caught up but not really caring about it, while Ceph hasn't seen Nati display this much emotion except as scum, so this is actually probably a significant part of our read now.

And obviously we don't think they're very town.

So what do you need to do?

Just sheep us and Just Sheep Us!

[The Fox and the Hound]

Yeah, I haven't seen as much Nati as other people here, but 1159 is not sitting right with me at all. The only time I feel like I've seen him get frustrated like that was in Cash Cabd while he was hammering himself. And I don't see what's to be frustrated about. Feels like fake ATE to me, and especially off because of the player behind it.

I've been feeling weird about them all game, and I thought the over the top reaction to Sheep (who I've been leaning town on since they started playing) was wrong. They're not OMGUS types but I can't see anything other than that as justification for it. And it was in response to a read list I agree with the majority of (and that was Desp, who I've generally wanted to lynch on sight in the past). I know the scum can't all be in the {orc & lurkaderps} group that populates the rest of my possible scum pool, and RBD is the only Big Player I'm not getting at least decent vibes from.

DV's already hit on the rest. This feels like a good vote.

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Mastin, what happened to lynching AP?

[The Fox and the Hound]

mastin, are you scum, or are you still just sucking?

I asked first.

Mastin, what happened to lynching AP?

You're worse.

At least a scumbird isn't going to alienate me by trying to lynch RBD.

Why does AP get the monologue about how scummy he is yet we don't?

I mean, do you actually expect to get us lynched because at the moment my suspicion is that you don't actually care.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sheep, if I ask Ceph nicely and he says yes, do you think you'd be up for dead smiley?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sheep, if I ask Ceph nicely and he says yes, do you think you'd be up for dead smiley?

Please answer, as I'm entirely serious. I am feeling really strongly right now about mastin-scum, and usually when I'm this passionate about a read it's right, and I know it's not confirmation bias because I was actually townreading Mastin for her AP thing, but hey, it turns out she doesn't actually care about that as much as she said she did and doesn't actually care about saying anything about us other than 'they're just sooo scum' even though people actually have townreads on us and so there'd probably need to be some convincing done if she's going to lynch us, so what's the answer to all this??? She doesn't actually care, does she?

[The Fox and the Hound]

CEPH I LOVE YOU

Unvote: Rancid
Vote: MastinSSK

[The Fox and the Hound]

Sheep, I'm not sure if Mastin/Rancid is a thing and I think Mastin is the better vote of the two fwiw.

PEdit: Already covered. May try and explain better later.

[The Fox and the Hound]

arrogance.

Hey, kettle? You're black.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am fully aware GIF has had access issues recently, but it's not the lurking itself that makes him scum, it's his whole attitude towards the game. I thought I made that pretty clear with the last sentence, but apparently I need to spell it out very clearly for the slower players

If I'm counting correctly you have now identified five scum without the slighest shadow of a doubt within two pages. Congratulations! That's probably real conviction!

[The Fox and the Hound]

Someone tell me why ElementalHawk is scum.
3dice's posts were pretty town to me?

As evidenced by mastinscum trying to drive a poorly reasoned train through his replacement, he wasn't scum.

[The Fox and the Hound]

As evidenced by mastinscum trying to drive a poorly reasoned train through his replacement, he wasn't scum.

And yet you guys apparently thought he was scum up until he was replaced.

So this is a load of shit.

One of these things does not follow from the other

[The Fox and the Hound]

why

that's a tall order, i don't know if this scumteam can handle it

[The Fox and the Hound]

One of these things does not follow from the other

You thought they were scum. You voted them because you thought this. GIF asked why people thought this. And you answered with that. Which is a load of shit.

I kinda wanted to hear from RBD why Elemental/AP is scum.

I'll get to it soon

we thought they might be scum

now, we don't think they are scum

it's almost as though something really drastic changed in the interim

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't think repeating something like that is telling in any way, shape or form. I am not giving points for calling oneself obvtown, although it can be done correctly.

It amuses me that apparently I have to have reasons for things and you don't. And Mastin doesn't even have to pretend to have any!
But I'll humor you since DV apparently doesn't think you're both scum. I've gotten pretty good gut feelings, but if I have to try explaining them. The interactions with mastin expressed a lot of the exact same frustrations I've been feeling with them the whole game but that I haven't really put into so many words.( In no small part because I was trying to give space knowing that I'm always going to think mastin is scum. But I just cannot do it, apparently.) There's the treating mastin as town bit, which I don't think I could honestly maintain even if I believed it when someone was making as incredibly shitty a case on me as that one. The mini reach to me in 1113 was a nice little bit of morale that doesn't do much in the way of scum motivation and gave me a little more energy to not just give up, though at this point I probably would again if I wasn't upset.

I'm sleep deprived as all hell right now and I need to sleep. Maybe DV will feel like dealing with this bullshit but I wouldn't blame him if he didn't

[The Fox and the Hound]

Like did you even fucking read the back and forth between AP and mastin?

He's calling his own entrance obvtown

When it's so easily fucking fakeable as scum that it's not funny

Because, as you said, it's just a fucking nearly verbatim imitation of an entrance he's done as town before. He knows people in this game know he's done it as town before. It's not a fucking difficult thing to do as scum. But he calls it obvtown and he's hoping people look at it and think he's town because he's done it as town before.

It's the exact fucking move he'd pull here as scum, and the way he interacted with Mastin after it is further evidence of this

I absolutely read it, and the whole thing had me feeling like I'd want to strangle mastin if I were in his shoes.

I don't know why you are so hung up on the entrance.

[The Fox and the Hound]

arrogance.

Hey, kettle? You're black.

The difference is? I recognize the arrogance. And try to keep it under control.

You don't. You like to talk about it, and it almost becomes it own fucking meta-arrogance. And you think pretending to acknowledge it counts for anything while you keep insisting you are infallible. And I have always and will always read massive unjustified overconfidence as scum because that is literally the definition of me scum.

Bad night, hope you get lynched while I'm asleep

[The Fox and the Hound]

I've read over the last few pages with a clearer mind and I still think MastinSSK is scum.

Reading over 1015 and 1066, it doesn't make any sense for MastinSSK not to lynch AP here. The only benefits are that lynching AP-town raises many more question marks for Mastin than lynching us-town, and if AP is scum, well, the benefit is obvious isn't it?

Also, to AP that asked this, the above was the basis of my question. It sounded from Mastin's posts as if she would go all-out on trying to get you lynched.

As I mentioned before, all Mastin has said about us is that we're really really scum. There are players with townreads on us. She'll probably need their help if she wants us lynched! But no, there is no attempt to explain her read or interact with others about us until after I bring this up, reinforcing the likelihood that she just doesn't care! Scum doesn't need us lynched as long as it's not one of their own that is, and this is exactly how I feel about the AP thing too. I thought that MastinSSK was town because bussing AP would have been totally unecessary, and getting AP-town lynched would have burned a lot of mastin's towncred, but now there is no need! Us and Sheep have magically become scumreads greater than the strength of AP who Mastin has a strong history with and really thinks is scum! I really think there's something wrong here.

I still believe in the earlier things too even if no one else does.

Although their defenses, their reasoning for their arguments, and their accusations are all wavering and breaking apart,

How so?

Point being, thats your opinion. Is it wholly unreasonable for someone to townread Tammy on her later posts rather than immediately? I mean really?
That post made me laugh though.

Everything is opinion here, and I still believe Tammy was much the same before the vote as after. Right now though, I doubt that Mastin/Rancid would be buddying together so much as scumbuddies, and I feel my case on MastinSSK is a lot stronger than what Ceph and I had on Rancid.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think I may be wrong, but I don't think the argument was stupid.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know why you are so hung up on the entrance.

Because BRO is trying to say that him repeating an entrance he's done before as town makes it a town entrance here.

The interactions with mastin expressed a lot of the exact same frustrations I've been feeling with them the whole game but that I haven't really put into so many words

The interactions with mastin were him trying to get mastin of his back. It's the same thing mastin did in the hydra open.

There's the treating mastin as town bit, which I don't think I could honestly maintain even if I believed it when someone was making as incredibly shitty a case on me as that one

Except AP basically needs to do that. If he tried to push mastin-scum here, it'd practically be a scum claim

Again, it is the same thing mastin tried to do in the hydra open with AP. He had no choice.

The mini reach to me in 1113 was a nice little bit of morale that doesn't do much in the way of scum motivation and gave me a little more energy to not just give up

. . . . .

Even if you are town, why couldn't this be simple buddying?

Nothing here is a good reason to think AP is town.

Look. I am not good at conveying why things mean to me what they do. My townread stands. If you can't handle the fact that I tend to come up with strange and seemingly illogical reasons when I'm pushed for them, you should hang me every game. If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional. I happen to think the position that I am scum is not only untenable but becoming increasingly so.

Like Mastin looks really obvtown here and you're hiding behind the mask of "omg I always read Mastin as scum!" to call him scum which is a load of bullshit.

No, I'm not. That explanation is not why I think Mastin is scum; it's why I haven't been shouting that he's scum from the rooftops since the moment the game started. She doesn't look obvtown. I don't understand how you can even think that I should clearly think Mastin is town, because they've given me basically no reason to at all and plenty to think the opposite, ie pushing for an easy mislynch on me like it's literally a stronger conviction than most people's religions and still can't even pretend to have a reason excpet "this is soooooooooooooo scum" as though having a sufficient number of vowels in a word makes it extra convincing. How am I, or really anyone, supposed to townread that, and above all how can you possibly be surprised when I don't.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Well, if anyone wants to actually make an effort despite the fact that the links hate me, they're dual isos of me & generic/bulbafenix respectively.

[The Fox and the Hound]

How about you start with explaining your scumread on Fox and the Hound?

Conveniently enough, Xenogears just ended last night. Cephrir was the only scumbag that I was able to reliably read as scum. ONLY scumbag. And he was also? The second-most-obvtown scum player, behind mollie. Maybe even moreso. He didn't get lynched; he got nightkilled by the serial killer, who I'm not certain was aiming for scum. (I'll have to ask Aegor that.) It's a lot of reading, but this isn't something you'll understand by reading my iso and then Cephrir's iso. This is something you need the context in order to be able to understand. But simply put...

He was aiming for scum. See dead QT. Because he was an idiot.

This is why I don't read Cephrir off of past games. I read him off the current game. And I don't read the literal content. His literal content looks town. It always does. It did in Xenogears, too. I read the words behind the words, the mindset of the content, and from that I generate my read. I can see him posting things that are meant to look good and sound like they could be genuine, but they also come off as being flat and intentionally-invoked.

This doesn't mean anything. What the hell is wrong with my mindset.

All-in-all, Cephrir is the type of player who you have to look at the reasoning, not the wording. And his reasoning here is basically the same thing that I used to catch him in Xenogears. He's doing things that he really shouldn't be doing if he was town. Among them, his push on me. Because in Xenogears, he knew I was town and that I wasn't giving reasoning, yet he brought it up in this game as if he had never encountered it before.

"I don't read Cephrir off past games but let me tell you about Xenogears". Lol.

But, actually, I would love to talk about Xenogears, because I've been treading on fucking eggshells trying not to. Why do you think I was trying not to jump down your throat this game, it's because at first I thought you felt the same way you did in that game (i.e. "damn I see absolutely no way this can possibly be town"). I've been trying to play it off like I have substantial meta with you apart from that game but I actually pretty much don't. Anything I've claimed to know about the way you play has basically been that. You may notice that I won the argument there and came reasonably close to getting you lynched. I also scumread you in that game because I literally knew I would be jumping down your throat if I was town. And hey guess what, here I am. I know there are style issues muddying things here and I don't even give a fuck. I'm done trying to convince myself to hold back because you literally could not be scummier. For someone so concerned with how good I am at imitating my town game you sure don't seem to be considering that I was doing exactly that in Xenogears. Yet another thing that bothers me is that you would approach me in exactly the same way you did that game, with random ass scumreads. Of course I'm going to blow up on you. I really fucking hate baseless reads. It's ridiculous that you think that means anything.

DV, I admittedly don't have recent experience reading. But I'm treating his half the same way I'm treating Cephrir. I'm not caught up in the past about DV. I'm focusing on reading him in the present...in which, he still looks like scum.

He absolutely bloody well does not.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional.

The problem is, this is exactly the thing you specialize in doing as scum.

I don't understand how you can even think that I should clearly think Mastin is town, because they've given me basically no reason to at all and plenty to think the opposite, ie pushing for an easy mislynch on me like it's literally a stronger conviction than most people's religions and still can't even pretend to have a reason excpet "this is soooooooooooooo scum" as though having a sufficient number of vowels in a word makes it extra convincing.

You're an easy mislynch, you think you're obvtown. Choose one; you can't have both.

No.
As a player I am an easy mislynch.
I am becoming pretty town here to anyone who is paying attention, but evidently nobody is.

So you wanna live?
Bluntly, fullclaim now.
Not later.

Now.

Blow me.

^

You are not in charge. You are not even town. Oh but please tell me more about how arrogant you aren't, this whole post. Really, I'm interested.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This is town as fuck.

Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.

This is impossible to respond to. You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum. There is nothing I can do with that.

It IS that and not this as you would know if you bothered to look at what I posted, but you don't need to because you already know I'm town.

Im not going to full claim just because its on the mastin agenda, mastin.

And I explained the reasons.

You are not escaping a lynch.

We don't lynch you today, it's tomorrow. If not then, D3. You are not escaping that fate. I explained explicitly why you claiming would be pro-town. Because if we're not wagoning you today (which would force you to claim anyway), we're wagoning you tomorrow in a 1v1 against Rancid, which will 100% result in your lynch because nobody here is going to choose to save you over saving Rancid. And if Rancid 1v1s the survivor of Fox/Hound and Sheep Us rather than you, we just wagon you on D3.

You KNOW it's true. So I say again. You wanna live? You need to prove it.[/quote]
I will spare the thread the agony of reading a post in which I vote you 50 times.

This is scum confidence, it is that simple. You are trying to create the illusion that the flow is in your favor and this is essentially kingmaker. Newsflsah, it isn't.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This is town as fuck.

Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.

This is impossible to respond to. You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum. There is nothing I can do with that.

It IS that and not this as you would know if you bothered to look at what I posted, but you don't need to because you already know I'm town.

Im not going to full claim just because its on the mastin agenda, mastin.

And I explained the reasons.

You are not escaping a lynch.

We don't lynch you today, it's tomorrow. If not then, D3. You are not escaping that fate. I explained explicitly why you claiming would be pro-town. Because if we're not wagoning you today (which would force you to claim anyway), we're wagoning you tomorrow in a 1v1 against Rancid, which will 100% result in your lynch because nobody here is going to choose to save you over saving Rancid. And if Rancid 1v1s the survivor of Fox/Hound and Sheep Us rather than you, we just wagon you on D3.

You KNOW it's true. So I say again. You wanna live? You need to prove it.

I will spare the thread the agony of reading a post in which I vote you 50 times.

This is scum confidence, it is that simple. You are trying to create the illusion that the flow is in your favor and this is essentially kingmaker. Newsflsah, it isn't.[/quote]

[The Fox and the Hound]

Well okay, the flow IS in your favor, and that's nice.

But it's not kingmaker.

[The Fox and the Hound]

If you're town, I would like you to iso me again, try to be just a teensy bit objective, and tell me you still think I'm scum, and why would be appreciated but is optional.

The problem is, this is exactly the thing you specialize in doing as scum.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[The Fox and the Hound]

RBD scumread is because they've been buddying the fuck out of mastin at every juncture, even when she's making pushes that are terribad (like the early tammy push, the CF push, etc).

I have a physical drawing up through page 24 of positional stuff, and the core of the game early on was very much mastin/tammy/f-16 once he moved in. Fox/Hound buddied behind Tammy, and RBD buddied behind mastin. This led me to strongly think that 1, maybe 2 people in that core group are scum. Fox/Hound and RBD make the most sense given how the attacking/defending/chainsawing mapped out.

I don't feel like this is actually a real thing

I buddy strong townreads, that is just how it works, and I wouldn't call rbd scum for that reason either

[The Fox and the Hound]

You are basically devolving into arguing that I am scum because I don't sound like scum.

No, my point is that you are scum because you are

arguing that your posting doesn't sound like scum

, when that's

precisely

the thing a scum-you specializes in doing.

How's that not using meta working for you, oh just fine actually since this meta is not even correct

Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

[The Fox and the Hound]

The only player in this game actually deserving of being called obvtown is Tammy.

Personally I think F-16 is almost as strongly town, but it's not "obv" or everyone would agree to it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Graaaah ok.

Town: Tammy, RBD
Probably Town: Mac, MastinSSK, Orcinus, Red gyarados?
I don't know, leaning town?: Foxhound, Stalin, LB
Less than Town: Peregrine, F-16, Kagura
Needs to die regardless of alignment: GIF
The rest: Cupcake, Clyton, Katsuki, Sheep Us

Wait that adds up to 17 wtf happened here.

Have you read the thread?

[The Fox and the Hound]

(But I've read a good 2/3s all together probably just bouncing around.)

Is there something egregious about my reads?

Not aside from me disagreeing with it. Do you have reasons for disliking Kagura apart from the little semantics thing you just did? I would tell you to go through F-16, but if you don't like him now you probably won't like the rest either. I'm surprised you don't have an opinion on Sheep.

[The Fox and the Hound]

So you wanna live?
Bluntly, fullclaim now.
Not later.

Now.

Blow me.

Oh good I haven't gone insane.

And Ceph!!!

Yep, which is precisely why I talked to every single player I could think of possibly being any help on the matter at all, who wasn't already there. (That said, should probably write appeals to bork/Nacho to help me write more convincing cases. Don't really need to ask zMuff/Nati, since we're a 4p hydra at this point and they already know.)

I addressed this in the same post that you quoted so you either didn't read all of it or are trying to make it look like I have less of a case than I did.

Why would you have had to fake the Mastin thoughts and do the QT stuff?

I just copy+pasted what I'd posted in my QT with Ceph a couple of days earlier and I think that I paid much less attention to making sure what I was saying made sense there than if I was making a post here, so if I was scum I either would have had to post my thoughts about mastin in our QT instead of in here (which I don't think makes much sense as scum?) or pretend that I had posted something in the QT 2 days ago and try and make it look like I wasn't caring too much about explaining myself. Someone did mention that it was possible I would fake this as scum and maybe it is? But I don't think it's something I would do? I don't know.

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing he's going to claim is going to be his real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game. Do you disagree with that?

I do.

What's the difference? Scum-Nacho doesn't really have to call you scum and get your attention: he can wait until late game when all of the people who could possibly support me and could possibly sniff out me scum despite bork apparently not being aware that we have a scum role PM instead of sorting you out almost immediately like I'm doing now.

Well that's the thing! It doesn't really make sense for scum-you to not townread me, but I don't think the consequences are all that bad. You know that I'm not totally irrational so maybe you'd think I'd expect you to townread me even as scum, and if I think you are scum, you know as well as I do that it's not a big deal to your survival chances. So, I thought that town-you not townreading me made less sense than scum-you not townreading me.

BUT I ACTUALLY THINK DV MIGHT ACTUALLY BE TOWN

I don't know if I can say the same for you.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Do ye think
That I be town?
Please let it be so, Nacho
Don't let me down

-Nati

I was gonna vote you before I was pinged by the Fox!

Oh, so you really were... um, okay... that makes me go back to feeling conflicted again, I guess it would have been really easy for you to take bork's explanation if it wasn't true, but I don't really see any reason for this even though I'm trying to.

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing he's going to claim is going to be his real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game. Do you disagree with that?

Pretty sure DV already said this but yes.

BUT I ACTUALLY THINK DV MIGHT ACTUALLY BE TOWN
AND IM STILL NOT DONE READING BUT I ALSO LIED TO MY GIRLFRIEND ABOUT BEING CAUGHT UP

Are you deliberately ignoring me? I couldn't blame you for that strategy on some level but if that's the case I'd like to hear you say it. Perhaps it would be intelligent for me to do the inverse/converse, whichever of those is the right one

[The Fox and the Hound]

Trying to explain why I am not scum is not alignment indicative and never will be

Again, it's the way it was done. This is something a bit difficult to describe, since it kinda ties into the magic-town stuff, about a player who either is or isn't scum. And that's part of it. A town player generally has a good idea of why they're town...

but can't (or if they can, won't) point to specific things that make them town, especially not things tied to the difference/similarities between games.

This is just not true. I know when I feel a way I've felt before and when something happens to me that's happened before.

Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

^Ceph's take on me last game.
Posting quickly, be back much later.

And now that I am back, I can elaborate. Basically, this is how Cephrir viewed me last game. Someone who, in spite of scumreading him, was no threat, and in fact, he thought I was mislynchable. He's got the exact same read of me this game. He doesn't think I'm a threat. He doesn't think that my scumread on him is problematic. He thinks he can actually get a lynch on me. And this attitude towards me is, again, a large part of the reason I think he's scum. (I had better wording in my head at the time, but I can't pull past-me's reasoning up.) Basically...he's playing a con game. Again. Like he was in that game. There were a multitude of comments about him being townread, and at least one or two of them were from meta if memory serves me. Because that's what he wanted them to see.

And this game, he's doing the same thing. There are a fair number of people townreading him, a LOT from meta, because that's what he wants them to see. Instead of him actually being town, he's made himself look like town. That's basically the main reason AP's scum, too, because AP's done the same damn thing. Yes. They look good, because they put effort into looking good. No, they aren't actually good. Because that wasn't their goal. They aren't aiming to be town; they're aiming to do a good job of looking town. That's my read of them, of their posting, of their situation.[/quote]

Would you like me to post your take on players when you were scum?

No, but I can fake my thoughts of scum on each of the players, as they originally were and as their replacements come. (Obviously, has the same problem as last game in that I don't actually know who would be scum.)

See this is great and all, but none of it works unless you've already decided AP and I are scum. When you start scumreading me for playing like town, I start to walk out.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Quote tags are SO HARD

[The Fox and the Hound]

But I am getting really. fucking. sick. and. tired. of. people. comparing. every. damn. game. to. anything. fucking. goes. EVERY. DAMN. GAME. I was scum. I played well, in spite of seeming obvscum to others. I won. Get over it. And read me in the now. Not the then.

Oh please, you just want meta to go away because it doesn't benefit you.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Orcinus is pretty fucking town

o.o

RBD is town as fuck for the Hated Miller claim out the gates.

o.o

Correction: Just Sheep Us, AP, and Fox/Hound are all defending one another in one form or another. My vote stands, because I am not too entirely convinced with Fox and Hound. Although their defenses, their reasoning for their arguments, and their accusations are all wavering and breaking apart, I do not want to foolishly rush in to lynch them if their directions are misguided. I rather use AP's death as proof of Fox and Hound's alignment; this is something I am more comfortable with. But if the overall majority of the people here decides to lynch Fox and Hound, then so be it. I do not mind at all, but my suspicions on AP and Just Sheep Us stands firmer than the suspicion put on Fox and Hound.

I really enjoyed the sticking to the AP vote here, as well as the explanation even though I don't feel it's completely logical. AP put it well, it has a sense of pride about it that feels like town wanting to have been right.

Town

Fox
Mac
CF
JSU
Kagura
fery
notsci
Kat bc everyone said so
clyton
LB
Titan

town but due to doublecheck bc holy hell so much opposition
AP

scum
mastin

rest I have no memory of them

Even though this seems bizarre at first glance, I can actually empathize. I don't exactly have a zillion scumreads either.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Clyton, if you could answer my question regarding your claim that our arguments are wavering and breaking apart that would be great.

And Orcinus is pretty fucking town

I know Ceph o.o'd at this already, but why?

Orci, why are you no longer voting for us?

Not much else to say other than I still think MastinSSK is scum and still think people should vote for them!

[The Fox and the Hound]

On PV, I haven't been getting the townfeels from him that I've been hoping for, but that doesn't necessarily mean scum.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Been trying to ignore the shit you're spewing about me but seriously, a lack of provocation? Now you're just completely making shit up.

Those words look nice, but you apparently can't point to anything in particular. Also, at least half of that post if true indicates simply that I am indeed Cephrir, so good for you

[The Fox and the Hound]

Been trying to ignore the shit you're spewing about me but seriously, a lack of provocation?

Yes. Of your posting being safe, rather than riling feathers.

First of all, it's ruffling feathers. Secondly, that's exactly what I'm doing right now.

You apparently can't point to anything in particular.

It'd be pointing to essentially everything. I could explain stronger ones, weaker ones, and why they are what they are, but I meant it when I said, I could go into basically any spot in your iso and see them.

Then DO IT.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Secondly, that's exactly what I'm doing right now.

No, you're defending against me. The closest to riling me up you've done is the dismissiveness you had towards me. Which is still not ruffling feathers up.

I have been in the thick of this game. I'm not letting you take that away from me. You can be as wrong and or scum as you want, but I'm doing my fucking best here.

Then DO IT.

No. Takes too much time, nobody would read, would accomplish nothing but clutter the thread.

...k

[The Fox and the Hound]

So I want to talk about each of the players in more detail.

What prompted this decision?

It feels okayish, but not super-mega-strong like I'd kinda be expecting of a scum-him. So I overall reached the conclusion of him being town.

I can point you to a couple of recentish Nacho scumgames that are not super-mega-strong. Where are you getting this from?

ALSO SHE THINKS BREAKFAST WITH STALIN IS A FUNNY NAME
I LIKED SCUMFUCK MORE

So did we!

This seems like an unnecessary posts that adds nothing to the game

I could say the same about this post. Why does it matter?

~~

MastinSSK wagon going strong!!!

Spoiler:

[The Fox and the Hound]

@Breakfast 1769, which I'm not going to bother quoting because it's huge.

First of all, I really like this post, and it's articulating better a lot of things I've been trying to say.

The wall seems a little uncharacteristic of Beli, but I may have seen unfortunate games and/or the hydra may be having an impact. Still definitely a net positive. I'm beginning to like reading hydrae based on the person I'm less familiar with, maybe it's just because I'm lazy.

Most importantly, it describe's PV's style really well and makes me feel bad for any insulting of him as a player that I have definitely done in other games and possibly this one as well. My mild desire to lynch him has diminished a bit (in addition to his posts this past page or so, which I like as well).

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh, there's a massive wall mostly directed at me that I somehow missed. I'll deal with it later.

[The Fox and the Hound]

For starters, 383, unless I'm completely blind, contains no reference to RBD. Secondly the case itself was filled out by nonsense. A matter of opinion is their first reason ("we think Tammy towned it up before RBD, therefore RBD is scum") which comes around six or seven hundred posts before they actually present it as a case.

I don't think this is fair because every scumread is a complete matter of opinion, so arguing that our (or in this case my) opinion is inferior is not something I appreciate.

I'm not going to ISO you. I can tell you why I think you're scum off the top of my head. All your pushes this game have come from a place that doesn't make sense from a town perspective. Your mastin push is a really good example of this (I am still not sure why you actually think mastin is scum when they're really obviously not and I see you using the excuse that you always think mastin looks scummy to hide behind in the same way you did in Xenosaga) but all of your other pushes come from a place that makes just as little sense. The vote on me? What the fuck was that bullshit? Honestly. Like wow. I know it was the DV head but fucking wow. One of the most hilariously bad votes I've ever seen placed on me. And when I pointed out how fucking illogical it was, you guys just shrugged it off and said, "Nope, still not wrong!" Really. Fucking. Town. Of you guys.

First, I think I've been very clear about why I think mastin is scum so please don't complain about not knowing why if you're going to claim you know everything off the top of your head without ISOing us. And I think the suspicion of us is stupid too, but I'm not going to go on and on about how shit it is. I could go on a rant about your reaction to my accusation about your read on Titan when your read on us is equally opinion-based (which is entirely what I'd expect), but as I've probably implied, it'd be a pretty stupid endeavor. I'm willing to consider that you're town (Ceph still has you as scum though as far as I'm aware), but I'm not sure why you'd expect us to listen to you and worship you as the almighty, all-powerful rancid cheese when you're apparently confident that we're scum? HMMMM.

Regarding your townread on Mastin, you're welcome to share your reasoning for it if you want? But again why I should come begging to you for your wondrous insight is beyond me, especially since a lot of our read is probably based on the fact that mastin's pushing us-town. What I've read so far in favour of mastin-town though has not changed my opinion either. If I only had a weak scumread on mastin then my attitude would likely be different, but this is not a weak scumread and I'm not going to do my usual thing anymore of letting my lack of confidence (sssshhh you didn't hear anything. Mastin's scum ) prevent me from pushing a scumread, especially when I have someone who I can 100% trust the sincerity of that agrees with me, PLUS others who I think are likely town and respect the opinion of that agree with me to some extent. So if you're town, to be completely frank, I ask that you get off your high horse and actually consider that your reads might not be the hottest thing out there, because I can say with 99% certainty that they're not (the remaining 1% is because I actually forget what our role is so maybe I've repressed the knowledge that we're scum even though I actually like being scum and Ceph is just humoring me. Idk!). If you're scum... well... just continue doing what you're doing I guess because I'd imagine it's a lot of fun.

Not completely caught up. Will hopefully get to it tomorrow.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I want to catch up and post something, but every time I look at the thread my eyes glaze over and I want to go to sleep.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Let's please NOT wagon PV. I'll even bear the noise if it means one of Mastin or AP get lynched today but it would seriously suck to have all this scum theater end in a PV mislynch.

How does anyone else not see that through all the fog and the noise and the junk, Mastin and AP's main goal has been to get a lynch that is not them.

I'm going to head out but I'll try and articulate why I feel PV lynch is bad when I get back.

~ F-16

Have you already articulated why you think it's scum theater, or is that as much of a Bat Deduction as it looks like it is?

Just based on how shitty a job they seem to be doing of actually trying to get each other lynched? 'Cause that doesn't quite seem like a thing to me. You'd have to be arguing the point of their spat is to get the pressure off mastin, which it doesn't do at all?

I agree about PV though, I liked the page he showed up for, and I don't ordinarily like anything from him ever.

[The Fox and the Hound]

(Brief iso says you said it was a possibility a couple pages ago- but has something changed to make you feel more strongly?
While I'm at it, 2041 is a townpost, but I already knew you were town so it's not that relevant)

[The Fox and the Hound]

(It should also be really clear that I have zero intention of working with someone who is voting Mastin, but even if I did, I don't have any intention of working with someone whose reads I don't understand, and

who won't explain how they came about their reads

)

lol

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm going to, I'm being lazy rn

[The Fox and the Hound]

Cabd

protip: this is where your argument stops being valid

though CF's argument remains rather silly all the same

[The Fox and the Hound]

^posts like that make me die on the inside and you just keep doing them

[The Fox and the Hound]

^posts like that make me die on the inside and you just keep doing them

Explain. I'm curious.

I can't stand the "let me personally appeal (but not very well) to everyone in some group" posts. It's, like... not mafiascum scummy, but the conventional definition of scummy. I need a synonym for that. That one in particular was also painfully formulaic.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Apologies to all (especially Ceph), but this week hasn't been a good one for me, and I feel it's affecting my posting in ways that I'm not comfortable with. I'll make sure I'm caught up on things by deadline (worst case is that it's right before deadline though), but I'm not up to doing this right now. Sorry again.

[The Fox and the Hound]

As a response to those RBD posts oh so long ago, here's a summary of why we've thought mastin was scum.

-Early scumreads on CF and Tammy made no sense, felt calculated/forced. Nothing since has particularly felt unforced, because I never see any thought processes.
-Frequently claims to have reasons for things and will steadfastly refuse to provide them when questioned (see 1668/1672)
-Tunnel on us for bullshit/nonexistent reasons, and the attitude that the best way to go about the case was to shove it down everyone's throats by repeatedly just saying we were scum until it became part of the town's dialogue/subconscious. This is a great way to get mislynches.
-A LOT of little things like the Appeal To Everyone posts, and the things DV listed in 591 which set us on this track in the first place
-The cogdis of expecting everyone to townread them while insisting they are impossible to read, then getting suspicious of people who read them incorrectly

This is ignoring the the AP/mastin shit, I don't recall much of it and I am sure as hell not reading it again.

I did that without consulting DV so I'm sure he would have more to add. I just wanted to get this out of the way so I can stop feeling like I can't play this game until I respond to it.

Now to catch up.

[The Fox and the Hound]

OK. So ctrl+F "mastin" in your ISO shows me the closest you ever came to giving reasons for the mastin read were 1315 and 1344 (the latter of which i'm including even though it could only be called "reasoning" very, very, very loosely).

Am I correct in assuming this is it or is there more you just haven't talked about at all in thread?

Since 1315 appears to be the crux of your reasoning, is this an accurate summary:

- Mastin should have voted AP, but didn't (let's ignore the fact that mastin's vote will never count on a wagon that goes to lynch and assume this means anything)
- Mastin suspects you

Am I missing something here?

BTW this is comical, you can't have read that hard because ctrl-F'ing mastin turns most of our iso yellow

[The Fox and the Hound]

So 36 hours to deadline? Can we decide on something?

I dont get why nobody will actually vote PV.

Im having a really hard time buying that CF sat on a miller claim for so long for no reason, especially when claiming it could get motion for an RBD lynch that he wants so bad.

I don't understand why anyone wants/wanted to lynch PV.

[The Fox and the Hound]

depends

how likely do you think it is for there to be multiple millers?

After vesperia I am not going down that fucking road again in a cabd game.

-b

This is pretty much the only reaction that should be happening. Why is no one else having this reaction. Lynch on play, please.

Nothing RBD has done looks scummy. The claim looks town. The over aggressiveness in all aspects looks town. The trolling looks town. The emotion looks town.

I havent read a point against them that looks valid. Certainly not the "counterclaim" Certainly not anything you guys have posted.

Literally the only reason I would want to lynch them is for the Hated part.

You baffle me.

GET IN THE HYDRA QT. Also What is your general policy on Hated claims?

When I get home.

My policy on Hated claims is...there is no policy, they're a nulltownish claim where their handling is case-by-case.

And stop pushing Carbon Fiber. Let that be sorted later.
Keep pushing PV.

The enemies-into-teammates bit with AP is weird and sudden. I didn't mind when it was "okay AP might not be scum" but flipping to trying to get AP's help with something? I dunno. Then again, given the below, possibly irrelevant??

I'm going to go all anti-town on y'all and pull a grand Mastin gambit.

VOTE: MastinSSK.
(Not like my vote matters, though.)

Do not lynch Rancid.
Do not lynch Carbon Fiber.

Lynch either myself or PeregrineV.
There are no other options for today.

Not one, but TWO players I'm saying never-lynch, AND entering into a 1v1.

Okay. So like. On the one hand, there is a trajectory to this that made it not so surprising what the ultimate outcome would be. Some part of me could see this being an elaborate hoax.

On the other, this is such a town thing to do that it hurts my thinky brain parts. I guess there's some universe where this is mastin covering for scumbuddy rbd because mastin thinks she's the less likely of the two to ever be lynched. However, I don't actually believe rbd and mastin are both scum; it's possible but mindblowingly unlikely. But like. The physical selfvote, while not actually meaningful, is actually made of conviction. I don't know how this leaves me feeling about the slot. It's almost enough to make me rethink the entire game's worth of shitposting. I need to talk to DV about this. I dunno, maybe I can be convinced it's just a really good ATE, but it's

good

.

[The Fox and the Hound]

By nature of me accepting the existence of two millers in the game, I see your CC as illogical. You were clearly focusing on the miller aspect earlier; now, you are focusing on the hated aspect of RBD, something you can confront everyone with without the need for roleclaiming.

This is actually a teensy bit of a good point.

The only way I see this being a gambit from CF is if this was cooked up by the scum team, but his play of if they don't flip scum lynch/vig me tomorrow thing feels pretty real. :/

Oh you don't need to mention that to me.

@CF: Let's assume RBD and you are truly town. A lynch on RBD goes off successfully and he flips town. As a response, you think throwing down your own life as a result of your failure will be satisfactory for the town? It will erase the guilt you have given yourself? Goddamn think about the pivotal role you can play and never say such a thing; anyone can still be an asset after such a mistake as that. Your demise on the following day will only happen if a majority sees you as scum due to whatever factors; let that statement speak for your own demise, not because you will willingly be lynched/vig'd.

If you truly live to see beyond the light of this day, I want to give you a specific neighbourhood to construct. Let that be your redemption (in my eyes).

Paranoia theory:
There is no neighborhood for today.
The claimed neighborhood is entirely made up of scum.
/AP.
(Because this is totally AP's type of theory to make.)

Does this explain CF's avoidance to my requested demands? Even a simple no would suffice.

Sorry, I forgot to respond. I'll use it in the best way I see fit. I'm considering asking a strong townread to claim their title D2 so that I can activate a neighborhood for everyone in their title (I won't be in it).

~ F-16

Wait so you won't be in any neighbourhood outside of Abyss? I was hoping that you can use your neighbourize ability to include me into the neighbourhood with you and directly investigate me through there via words of discussion, since apparently, you don't have a strong townread on me and assumingly, you want that dealt with.

Sometime on Day 2 someone is going to have to explain to me why everyone isn't reading this as town

Falcon - Why did you think a miller neighborizer was unlynchable in this game?

Also, please catch up soon and let's co-ordinate a lynch which doesn't suck even if it means RBD is not getting lynched today. Like MastinSSK or AngryPidgeon.

At this point, I feel Pere's posts are pretty obviously town. That leaves {GIF, Clyton, LordB} as the only people I am not strong townreading as the final partner to Mastin/Rancid/AP.

~ F-16

F16, you didn't answer the question.

Compare the Syryana's reaction to my miller cc and RBD's reaction to CF's miller cc.
What do you think?

The difference is circumstantial.

Syryana? Saw the counterclaim, and the way you did it was town. Your CC was done in a town way, so Syryana townread you for it. It literally went,
"I'm a miller."
"Sincerely doubt there's two."
"Waiting on if that's serious."
"It is."
"Well, that was done in a town way, so I think it's possible you're town."

This game?
"I'm a miller.
*later*
No, seriously, I am."

*much, much, much later*
"I'm counterclaiming miller. Here's why I didn't claim it initially, and why I haven't been focusing on the miller claim being scum."
"Wait, there are...issues...with the narrative you're presenting."

And there are. The context is important. F-16's play isn't impossible to come from town, but there IS reasonable amounts of doubt about it being from town, given the issues in the claim. (ISSUES. THAT. PARAPHRASING. WOULD. HELP. WITH. I might add.)
Your play wasn't impossible to come from scum, but there was basically no doubt that it was from town anyway.

It's more of a mindset I was comparing to.

In buzzword Syryana's response was "ok cool you're town let's work together"
In here RBD looks like he's instead trying to discredit the counterclaim.

Get the difference?

Sir yes sir

[The Fox and the Hound]

I'm going to sleep. I'm not voting CF, and I really really want Rancid to address the miller claim and why he's a miller if not a replica.

I'll be around tomorrow.

muh flavor

Wtf is this shit?

I saw no reason to bring it up because all claiming miller day one does is devolves any relevant discussion during the day into "is he faking or not" and ends with me being lynched, which is fucking dumb.

Here!

I think this might have gotten missed anyway--Desp should have remembered since this is part of what pinned him down in that game.

To go further, we decided to claim Hated Miller for two reasons at the beginning

1--shits and giggles, in case it wasn't obvious, neither muffin or I had any intention of playing seriously.
2--Due to site culture, any miller claim is town, and we needed to make sure to coax it out. We just didn't forsee a goddamn neighborhood.

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm also saying we're not Hated. It's literally impossible to hate the Sword Dancer.

...No.
VOTE: RBD.

All these mastin arguments are like.... "ya ok maybe mastin is doing town things.....

but she could just be manipulating us

"

I know :S

Incoming read list, DV can tell me why I'm wrong when he shows up. It's not gonna have reasons though because I'm sleepy.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Ceph, not sure where you are getting at. What's the reason behind your read switch?

~ F-16

It's not a switch yet. But volunteering to be lynched for someone is really fucking town, especially when the momentum was still such that it could have legitimately happened.

[The Fox and the Hound]

TOWN
Titan
Clyton
CarbonFiber
Stalin

PROBABLY TOWN
Kagura
Sheep
Mac
PV

THE REST
Yggdra (goodposting these last few pages)
RG (stale)
AP
LB (stale)
Cupcake (I don't give a ton of credence to meta that I haven't personally witnessed)
Orc

LITERALLY JUST CLAIMED SCUM
RBD

NOT APPEARING IN THIS READLIST
Mastin

[The Fox and the Hound]

I take it back, Yggdra can be probably town for 2690 alone.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Please don't post 500 more pages while I'm asleep, TIA

[The Fox and the Hound]

The mastin read is weird

Yes, it is. For now though, I've decided to stop viewing her posts through whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses is and try to see them as potentially town; we'll see how that makes me feel slash if I'm capable of seeing them coming from a town mindset if I squint hard enough.

and the flop onto RBD feels uninspired?

??????

Yeah I'm not going to apologize for spending most of my time in-thread trying to get scum lynched, especially when my other reads and a lot of backend are on-record in the neighborhood QT, and when I have made other fairly clear stances this game.

Especially in the context of a game where scum (you and RBD) are trying very hard to drown everything under the mist.

For a player concerned about the mist, again, your iso seems to have quite a lot of noise in it.

Because again. You've spent basically all that time lynching two players.

One of which I know 100% to be town.
The other which I'm 95% certain is town.

You don't owe an apology if you're scum. You owe no apology if zMuffinman were to somehow flip scum. But otherwise? Fuck yeah you do. There's only so many times you can use the excuse of "I had a bad game" before you realize you're doing something deeply, deeply wrong.

You know, being aggressively wrong is not a heinous crime, Mr. "MafiaSSK is confirmed town."

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know why anyone thinks this is town ATE, it looks like scum ATE to me.

What I view as a scumclaim more than the thing Sheep is hung up on is the way they reacted to CF's miller claim while not being a miller. Look at their posts directly after the claim. From here, they look really really terrible.

@2790: there will probably be a lot considering how many players' reads on each of you are largely based on stances you've both taken.

[The Fox and the Hound]

What's bad about being on both those wagons?

[The Fox and the Hound]

What I view as a scumclaim more than the thing Sheep is hung up on is the way they reacted to CF's miller claim while not being a miller. Look at their posts directly after the claim. From here, they look really really terrible.

Problem:

As scum, why would they take the claim back? Knowing it'd bite them in the ass. Why do that, when they weren't getting lynched? Why do that? Why "scumclaim" when they can ride out deadline and be fine? Why not keep up the charade, ESPECIALLY given the people thinking two millers was possible? Why take it back, at the absolute worst time they could possibly choose to take it back?

It's not scumplay.

It's townplay.

Best example to come to my mind instantly would be (*groan*) House Party, and my mason fakeclaim with Majiffy. If I had been scum, there would have been no reason to let people suddenly doubt that. But because I was town, I couldn't in good conscience let myself do that. So I took it back, even though in hindsight I shouldn't have.

Same basic thing here.

Counterpoint: The town play, in my mind, would be to take it back immediately, before it causes what it's causing right now. Instead, they threw doubt on F16's claim and continued scumreading him, then called him conftown like 10 pages later. I don't see town motivation in that delay.

What's bad about being on both those wagons?

They're both on incredibly-strong town players? Who have been posting content consistently and are obvtown by play, and scumhunting consistently and raising a lot of good points?

Wouldn't it be weirder if I wasn't on both of them, considering that I've been scumreading both of you for most of the game? o.o
Not everyone sees everything the way you do :S

[The Fox and the Hound]

DV here, catching up now. Don't feel like you need to wait for me, as I can't promise that I'll be able to read everything by deadline, but I'll probably post out-of-context thoughts as I go through every 5 pages or so just in case it's interesting to anyone for some reason! Yeah.. I don't know.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Saying things over and over again won't make people believe them.

Actually, that does work a surprising amount of the time. I noticed once that good players often get their lynches through this way, so I tried it. It actually does work when the playerlist isn't stacked.

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

After this post, RBD shouldn't be considered as a lynch.

Would you consider anyone else for a lynch after they posted something like this?

No. Fuck no. Is your only excuse "oh he's the Don Corelone and he could fake this"? Because that's a horrible excuse and you know it.

Yes? It's not really that indicative of anything unless it's followed up on, and it's still arguable then?

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

The problem with the PV analysis in 1816 is that I think scum are much more likely to play according to past town meta (unless they don't like scum/are very transparent), while a town player's play is likely to be evolving such that their townplay

will

change. So, I think that unless PV's play matches his scum meta, there is actually more reason to see a change from his townplay as being town rather than scum. (And I'm leaning town on him based on his posts around the 70-78 period).

(Which, interestingly enough, is one of my favorite moves to pull on players I fear when I'm scum. Especially AP. But I've also done it on BRO, back when I actually respected his skills, in Theatre.)

Is this assuming BRO is town here?

Update on wagon thoughts at page 76: RBD lynch > PV lynch. Still think Mastin's better (but that's purely a Tod opinion). Obviously I've still got many pages to go though.

~DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

I once again remind all people wagonning RBD of the post that should be enough to yank them out of their tunnel stupors.

If they do it and it looks genuine, I'd probably be swayed, but otherwise not by this alone.

[The Fox and the Hound]

^DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

Is this what you're referring to Mastin?

I don't like Mastin scumreading my post. I feel that I have changed my posting style a bit recently, but even so I think my posts here so far are much closer to past-town-me and not really anything at all like past-scum-me, so I think it's odd that she got an excited scumread on us for that post.

Hmmmmmmm

[The Fox and the Hound]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

After this post, RBD shouldn't be considered as a lynch.

Would you consider anyone else for a lynch after they posted something like this?

No. Fuck no. Is your only excuse "oh he's the Don Corelone and he could fake this"? Because that's a horrible excuse and you know it.

Yes? It's not really that indicative of anything unless it's followed up on, and it's still arguable then?

~Ceph

Please be my rock, Cephrir.
Please don't be incredibly blind.

I'm a candidate for being a rock now? Hum.
I'm doing the best I can with the mediocre-at-best eyes I have in my skull. I may respond well to being shown the proverbial light.

[The Fox and the Hound]

They can't do it because it's a massive rules violation.
The way that this situation has come about is incredibly town and I really want you to think about if this comes from scum or not. Do you really think tha Muffin and Nati's frustration is fake, bullshitted, come up out of the blue? Because we have all seen Muffin fight lynches before. Has he ever fought a lynch like this at all?

You're probably better off directing this at Ceph than me right now as I'm not caught up and am not going to make Ceph change our vote with me having been so inactive lately, but I'm not sure I like a PV lynch either based on what I've read and am still MastinMastinMastin as far as scumreads go.

I'm trying to catch up though, and will get back to you if I form a more confident opinion.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Oh that was Ceph.

[The Fox and the Hound]

yeah, but it's what your argument was based upon so....

[The Fox and the Hound]

Kagura, can you link me to the ones that you feel are most town? (Or at least to where they are in the thread)

[The Fox and the Hound]

Also, I don't imagine you've changed your mind on Mastin by any chance?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Wait, what?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Something weird must have gone down while I've been away.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think scum are much more likely to play according to past town meta (unless they don't like scum/are very transparent), while a town player's play is likely to be evolving such that their townplay

will

change.

You realize you argued earlier in the game that this game resembling your past townplay and not your scumplay made you town, right?

(Nullscum moves to weakscum.)

As DV has pointed out, this is apparently based on DV expressing one viewpoint while I expressed another.

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

I once again remind all people wagonning RBD of the post that should be enough to yank them out of their tunnel stupors.

If they do it and it looks genuine, I'd probably be swayed, but otherwise not by this alone.

They can't do it because it's a massive rules violation.
The way that this situation has come about is incredibly town and I really want you to think about if this comes from scum or not. Do you really think tha Muffin and Nati's frustration is fake, bullshitted, come up out of the blue? Because we have all seen Muffin fight lynches before. Has he ever fought a lynch like this at all?

Somehow I didn't get that 'rules violation' was the conclusion. I thought that the conclusion was 'meh, I don't feel like it', which wouldn't do much for me. Also, we asked if we could paraphrase or even quote parts of our hydra QT earlier in the game and it was fine, is that totally different?

I thought it could be. But I am feeling pretty good about you being town at this point (pretty much no thanks to you, but all the same) and I do trust towncho's reads more than my own. I don't know. If you can come up with a decent compromise lynch I might be okay with it but I'm not gonna go totally against my own reads either.

I haven't actually seen Muffin fight a lynch before that I recall?

~Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Addendum: I started writing that post before everyone started voting despbro and I am not a huge fan of that wagon :S

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think both BRO and Desp are really, really incredibly town.[/quote

Did bro tell you he was going to telegraph the presence of your neighborhood to me?

I didn't catch it at the time, but that's what he did.

I never did this.

You're blatantly lying and so obviously trying to misdirect a mislynch onto me it hurts.

What is this post going on about?

[The Fox and the Hound]

Who are your strong townreads?

Titan, Clyton, CF, ffery, maybe you.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Kagura, what is it that makes you think the meltdown isn't some desperate attempt to avoid lynch? The QT paraphrasing thing almost reminds me of the claiming shenanigans of Macrophage in that Last Will game way back. It's weird and looks like something scum wouldn't do, but I'm wondering if there is really any point to it other than a fabricated attempt to look town?

I guess I know that if I'm in the mood for it, I'll become increasingly desperate as scum to the point where I'll do things that I wouldn't normally do in an attempt to have people townread me, so I want to know what in particular makes you think this is not the case here.

[The Fox and the Hound]

^-DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

I still wanna lynch RBD, but if not, anyone up for a mastin lynch?

I would be. Maybe Ceph wouldn't be? He still has to get back to me in the QT about RBD. grrr.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I still wanna lynch RBD, but if not, anyone up for a mastin lynch?

I would be. Maybe Ceph wouldn't be? He still has to get back to me in the QT about RBD. grrr.

Believe it or not, there is a large number of lynches I would currently prefer. Also, check the QT.

Vore: orcinus

Vote: orcinus

[The Fox and the Hound]

wall of feels

...
Ouch, my feels...

[The Fox and the Hound]

-DV (I'm going to make signing at the top a thing)

I'm very hesitant to go for AP now for reasons I don't want to discuss now but probably will some time later. I'm actually ok with Orci but I've decided that any decision on our vote is going to go to Ceph unless some reason he wants it to be otherwise.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Obviously if he gets to L-1 I'll probably discuss them though, but I feel that would be sub-optimal.

[The Fox and the Hound]

This is a message in a bottle from beli:

"JESUS FUCKING CHRIST WHERE DID ALL OF THESE PAGES COME FROM THERE ARE LIKE 15 OF THEM.

FUCKITY FUCK FUCK FUCKING FUCK."

Yeah I've given up on doing a proper catch-up today.

-DV

[The Fox and the Hound]

My initial thought is that Orc's BSing with the governor thing.