Comparative Religion Mafia GAME OVAH
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Oz Mafia had only factions competing to win.In post 138, Messiah Complex wrote:so you think all the churches are individual cults (that all have town win conditions)In post 130, leviathan93 wrote:I am under the impression they aren't. an apparently someone was just converted so I see cults (under the name churches) as the enemy.
???
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=31833
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You're right. Please continue your interrogation of Leviathan. If you share any "Ah ha" moments with us regarding his alignment, it would be appreciated.In post 281, Messiah Complex wrote:and the salient point in the post you quoted was that levi thinks all of the churches are enemies will still having town win conditions
your response was to bring up a game in which 6 factions + third partiesall had individual win conditionsas if this is even relevant at all
it makes me wonder why you even interrupted in the first place
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I can back you up. He is town. Word of Me.In post 234, AngryPidgeon wrote:This is too dumb to be scum, right? right?!? Come on this has to be town. This cant be mafia. ITs just too scummy. Its just too wow. Its town? I mean the words it says and the opinions it has. Its just gotta be? Someone back me up here?In post 233, leviathan93 wrote:How does anyone KNOW if someone is playing a town or scum wincon? the point is we DON'T!
both towntells and scumtells are bullshit. Especially when made by people who actually PLAY the game and have so many times. They know how to "fool" the system. Therefore it really comes into play that you can't trust anyone.
yes, there are majorly stupid or scummy things that can be said or happen, but I personally think that what is MORE scummy is finding scumminess in things that are pointless or stupid. or making big deals out of things.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Messiah Complex
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That would be ironic.
But, not sure yet that he's scum.
Because he is.In post 286, Jargonaut wrote:What makes you say that?In post 283, Lord God wrote: I can back you up. He is town. Word of Me.
But, for arguments sake, why would you think he isn't?
pedit: Fair enough. I am swayed more by logic based arguments, so if you have those kind of reasons to back it up, we can talk.
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You mean the part where I said:In post 313, AngryPidgeon wrote:That defense of Leviathan was so backhanded and scummy, idgi
How was it "backhanded"? I actually don't think I could have been anymore straightforward.In post 283, Lord God wrote:He is town.
And why is is scummy?
And why are you saying all of this while agreeing with me?
Vote: AngryPidgeon
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It wasn't a defense of Leviathan, but you can definitely take it as one.In post 382, AngryPidgeon wrote:In post 275, Lord God wrote:Oz Mafia had only factions competing to win.In post 138, Messiah Complex wrote:so you think all the churches are individual cults (that all have town win conditions)In post 130, leviathan93 wrote:I am under the impression they aren't. an apparently someone was just converted so I see cults (under the name churches) as the enemy.
???
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=31833No I meant this backhanded defense of Leviathan.In post 282, Lord God wrote:You're right. Please continue your interrogation of Leviathan. If you share any "Ah ha" moments with us regarding his alignment, it would be appreciated.
And I'm interested in whatever sumhunting Messiah wants to do, especially regarding Leviathan.
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Not really sure how this is about liking you or your opinions. It's about how I reached the conclusion that Leviathan is town, and you reached the conclusion that Leviathan is town, but you dislike my conclusion. Can you clear that up?In post 383, AngryPidgeon wrote:Yes?In post 381, Lord God wrote:And why are you saying all of this while agreeing with me?
Sorry, I dont scumhunt people based on whether or not they like me and my opinions. That sounds like something scum would do.
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I happen to like trying to figure the game out, even if I don't think it's right.In post 384, AngryPidgeon wrote:Its scummy because you quoted a game that Leviathan probably hasn't even read in defense of Leviathan thinking that this game has bizarre win conditions which it clearly doesn't.
As to the quoted game, it was based on this:
And the fact that Leviathan was in it.In post 125, leviathan93 wrote:Then apparently you have never played a game of mafia where there HASN'T been mafia. That's you not having the practical experience in games like that. not my problem.
I have read his posting. It comes from town.If you wanted to be townie, you could have stepped up to the plate and passed some sort of judgement on Levi's posting rather than calling him town and pointing at a Red Herring.
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Sounds like this is really bothering you:In post 390, AngryPidgeon wrote:Well yes, if it was clear how you reached your conclusion about Levi town we wouldnt be having this discussion. All you did was link an alignment-madness game he was in, imply that it makes him town here, and then never actually talk about why you think Leviathan is town. And then you later denied that game being related to your townread on Levi in the first place, so now there actually is nothing to suggest you should be townreading Leviathan.In post 388, Lord God wrote:Not really sure how this is about liking you or your opinions. It's about how I reached the conclusion that Leviathan is town, and you reached the conclusion that Leviathan is town, but you dislike my conclusion. Can you clear that up?
Feel free to convince me otherwise, but if your upset because you don't think I have a reason to townread Levi, then can't help you there. You can call it meta, gut, etc. if that helps you reconcile.In post 283, Lord God wrote:He is town.
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Psalms 33:4In post 393, Jargonaut wrote:P-edit: LG why won't you tell us where your read comes from?
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Yes. But, even if he didn't join you, did you get notification that he accepted?In post 606, Bacde wrote:Hes in the graveyardIn post 605, Lord God wrote:Did he accept?In post 562, Bacde wrote:I recruited messiah to relieve him of your scumness, but too bad he died.
Also, why would you recruit AND accept a membership request?
In post 1, Untrod Tripod wrote:3. In the event of a player being recruited by more than one Church, that player will decide which suitor gains their faith.
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I get humor, and like humor. The trolling-that-hides-motivation-behind-actions is the part that's difficult to fathom as a playstyle for town.In post 608, AngryPidgeon wrote:It really just depends on what type of player you are. I read town-motivated trolling as such fairly accurately because it resonates with how I think when I play.In post 604, Lord God wrote:Yes. Makes you wonder at why town would ever do it.In post 463, Klazam wrote: I hate when people are trollish- harder to divulge scum motivation.
People who play the game 100% straight and w/o a single instance of humor or emotion are kind of cold on my radar because I have a hard time getting inside their head. I dont care if their logic is flawless or terrible, that is ultimately a reflection of how much respect I will have for their brain power, not my opinion on whether or not their logic is dedicated to achieving a scum or town win. At least early on. This post can probably be ignored seeing as how its not super relevant to the game.
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I hope/think it helps me figure you out.In post 645, Bacde wrote:What are you confused about? I have a recruit ability and I was recruited. There wasn't any choice in the matterIn post 638, Lord God wrote:@Bcade- I would like to understand better.In post 611, Lord God wrote:Also, why would you recruit AND accept a membership request?
How does me answering this question help you Find scum?
I was going by Rule #3, so not sure how you had no choice.
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If Messiah was really vig-capable, then I could see AP wanting that variable out of the way. With that said, I also think AP would try to get at least one townkill from it.In post 668, Klazam wrote:My AP read- Ap's posting is trollish and not "clean" which makes me lean scum, but there's just no way i could match up the messiah kill with AP being scum.
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@Axxle-(939)- Good enough I suppose, plus you dropped out of hammer range. If you are good at finding town, who are your townreads?
@Quill (948)-The fact that Messiah said dayvig and there was none made me think gambitting town. The only reason scum would kill him for being a dayvig was if they were really convinced of it, which does point back to AP.
@Quill (948)-The fact that Messiah said dayvig and there was none made me think gambitting town. The only reason scum would kill him for being a dayvig was if they were really convinced of it, which does point back to AP.
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Disagree on Bcade.In post 1027, Axxle wrote:Bacde, BPC, levi are my strongest.In post 974, Lord God wrote:If you are good at finding town, who are your townreads?
BiPolar did something I liked as town early game.
Levi is town.
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One Fighter Jet coming up!In post 1047, Axxle wrote:http://explosm.net/comics/3577/In post 1045, implosion wrote:Lord God also exists
@AP, you might be right about BPC but I'm not going to admit it just yet.
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Just finished his ISO and he seems to have townreads with reasons for BiPolar/Klazam, thinks your town (maybe scum) for your claim, started Quill as null and is now town, Jargo, AP (sort of), Bcade, Levi as town, I went from town to null.In post 1059, Axxle wrote:What's your read on implosion?
Not sure on some of these, but at least he is voting AP.
If I make a vote on implosion, it would be a compromise lynch. And with 11 days, why compromise when we can lynch professional scum?
Vote: AngryPidgeon
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You actually scummed up one of the primary reasons- your whole Bcade back-and-forth. Calling him scum all game and yet both are voting implosion. And I think this has been happening all game, if I can be bothered to go look it up.In post 1062, AngryPidgeon wrote:Because you have no actual reasons for believing Im scum?In post 1061, Lord God wrote:why compromise when we can lynch professional scum?
Im not scum.
I am town.
Im actually participating in this game which makes a lynch on me one of the most shitty lynched imaginable, just gut the town why don't you.
The reasons for scumreading me continue to blow.
Bacde probably is scum tbhbut Im too much committed to not pushing it emotionally right now to actually do it.
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Levi is town.
We have multiple claims and a gambit or two which led to some townreads.
We have implosion at L-1.
AP & Bcade have been calling each other town and scum all game.
This is the short of it off the top of my head. Details are in the posts.
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-BiPolarChemist
I liked your reads list in 522. You gave specifics to reinforce your reads.
I liked your reflexive roelcop thing with the fractional nightkill question. The fact that I also liked the overall resolution was just gravy.
-Jargonaut
I was voting Bcade before, but no one else seemed interested since his name wasn't implosion. Angry was my second choice.
-AngryPidgeon
Don't forget about how you have been calling Bcade scum-maybe-town all game and yet "coming together" to lynch
BiPolarChemist (232)
Quill (411)
Bob (556)
Me (1156)
As for the Mastin thing, I think you both have enough integrity not to talk about the game while in it or joining a game of which you already had knowledge of.
-Mastin
Welcome. We got time, but please avoid a deadline push.
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I am actually completing the reasons why I think you are scum.In post 1207, AngryPidgeon wrote:Are you trying to convince me that I'm scum with Bacde?In post 1206, Lord God wrote:Don't forget about how you have been calling Bcade scum-maybe-town all game and yet "coming together" to lynch
This point is just so extremely short-sighted and I dislike it. Firstly, you pretty much have not considered (or at least shown that you considered) any other possible explanation for what you've observed here. Your case is basically just an observation about what we are doing and leaving it open for people to infer why it means we are scum together. Obviously the conclusion you want people to draw is that we are 1) distancing with elaborate scum theater and 2) voting together despite that because we apparently have balls of steel and no shame and also a desire to just quicklynch townies blatantly apparently.
[ego] I'll give you that Im one of the few people insane enough to actually do something like that [/ego], but Im not and I probably wouldn't because I wouldn't see a particular need to blatantly vote alongside someone with whom my actions were meticulously calculated in attempt to appear NOT related. Moving on, what I REALLY dislike is that you haven't really talked about our individual parts of the interactions, rather just lumping us together like a forgone conclusion. A conclusion that looks pretty to be sure, but actually has no thought behind it on your end other than packaging up our interactions and implying that they look bad. Anyone who actually stopped to think about it though would realize how ludicrous it is for someone to blatantly sheep a scum buddy they are putting in effort to distance from..repeatedly.
What of the possibility that just one of us is scum? What if its just Bacde and hes intentionally trying to make me look scummy should he die all game? Im not saying thats the case, but that you haven't even considered anything like this and went straight from A -> C without stopping to think about any other possibility bothers me. TL;DR: Your read is actually just superficial and pretty on the surface, but lacking in any thought behind it.
How is it short-sighted to point out behavior that has been going on since the game started? Pretty much since page (21,23, Jargonaut)
I have no desire to quote each of your posts, or even group of posts, to say the same thing I'm saying now. It's kind of obvious to everyone. But, it even took me this long to decide that this is probably not town and town. Saying that you can figure the other person out by together lynching the rest of the players does not fly.
I think either one or both of you is scum. My current preference would be a Bcade lynch, but that is followed closely by a a AngryPidgeon lynch. With a flip of one of you, I can then read the interactions from both a town PoV and a scum PoV to see which it more closely matches.
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I like Levi's idea of ranking players left.
Bcade- Pushing, lynching, voting, but avoiding accountability. I don't think I ever read a why that couldn't apply to 4 other people. Whole game has been like that.
AP- Doing a circly dance with Bcade, with the net effect of a lot of noise. Like the logic of stuff like 1752, but with the actual result it could have come equally from scum or town.
implosion- Can't seem to nail down a scmread or be nailed down as town. Day 4 and not much of a an impression or impact, and that is worrisome on day 4.
Axxle- push and resultant claim seemed town enough. Otherwise also not much of an impression or impact- see above.
Klazm- Is also a member of my church. I was hesitant at first, but his play in the PT and his play here are in-sync. Also, I liked his response to BPC gambit from day2.
Me & Levi
Highest chance of being scum-
Bcade- Pushing, lynching, voting, but avoiding accountability. I don't think I ever read a why that couldn't apply to 4 other people. Whole game has been like that.
AP- Doing a circly dance with Bcade, with the net effect of a lot of noise. Like the logic of stuff like 1752, but with the actual result it could have come equally from scum or town.
Next tier-
implosion- Can't seem to nail down a scmread or be nailed down as town. Day 4 and not much of a an impression or impact, and that is worrisome on day 4.
Axxle- push and resultant claim seemed town enough. Otherwise also not much of an impression or impact- see above.
Town-
Klazm- Is also a member of my church. I was hesitant at first, but his play in the PT and his play here are in-sync. Also, I liked his response to BPC gambit from day2.
Confirmed town-
Me & Levi
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In post 1872, leviathan93 wrote:Actually. i think i've been duped...like majorly. I will no longer be participating in my PT because I am fully in believing that the last two scum are Lord God and Klazam...
Kind of interested in how you came to that conclusion. If you don't want to discuss it now, that's cool, but I'd like to hear it post-game, regardless.
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Yes, it is, but since he is a secondary scumread, would like to hear more from you about other players.
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AP, you seemed to have covered every argument, even if it contradicts other arguments that are opposite.
I expected that you recruited Bcade for a reason. I would think that reason would be to either bulk up your church & legitimatize your interactions (if you are scum) or to figure out Bcade (if you are town).
1. You haven't indicated any church actions that have changed
2. You are simultaneously calling Klazm out (and me, since I use the same argument) because we are basing part of our reads on PT postings.
3. Conversely, Bcade has not confirmed your Messiah conversation, nor has he gave any indication of sorting
4. The fact that I have to ask for this and you have been called out on it is now, IMO, going to color any response you now try to "produce". I figure that would be the first thing you do in the church, with the second being to report your findings here.
The issue of the double-voter is pretty much a non-issue, I think. In almost every game I've played, every double-voter loses that double-vote at lylo, regardless of town or scum. If UT does let scum get it at lylo, then it pretty much is game over. Since I have no control over that, I'll assume the standard and not factor it into anything (but Klazm pointing it out is another reason he's town).
I could keep bringing up points about why you're probably scum, but you seem fully aware of it, so there you go. And your posts seem to indicate you'd be willing to lynch anyone except AngryPidgeon or Leviathan. Obviously,
I expected that you recruited Bcade for a reason. I would think that reason would be to either bulk up your church & legitimatize your interactions (if you are scum) or to figure out Bcade (if you are town).
1. You haven't indicated any church actions that have changed
OR
given you a read OR
a better read on Bcade. 2. You are simultaneously calling Klazm out (and me, since I use the same argument) because we are basing part of our reads on PT postings.
3. Conversely, Bcade has not confirmed your Messiah conversation, nor has he gave any indication of sorting
YOU
out in your PT.4. The fact that I have to ask for this and you have been called out on it is now, IMO, going to color any response you now try to "produce". I figure that would be the first thing you do in the church, with the second being to report your findings here.
The issue of the double-voter is pretty much a non-issue, I think. In almost every game I've played, every double-voter loses that double-vote at lylo, regardless of town or scum. If UT does let scum get it at lylo, then it pretty much is game over. Since I have no control over that, I'll assume the standard and not factor it into anything (but Klazm pointing it out is another reason he's town).
I could keep bringing up points about why you're probably scum, but you seem fully aware of it, so there you go. And your posts seem to indicate you'd be willing to lynch anyone except AngryPidgeon or Leviathan. Obviously,
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Then you are hiding it really well. See my post above this one. See your play go downhill from day1 to now. See you willing to be lynched since the beginning of the game.In post 1913, Bacde wrote:What about if im town
But, looking over your posts, I now see
I was wrong that Bcade didn't talk about church contents. And is concluding AP is scum?In post 1845, Bacde wrote:In the pt angrypidgeon seemed really convinced klazam was scum.
I figured that everyone suspected me/angrypidgeon/implosion which was cool because i think angrypidgeon and implosion are scum
Reread mastins reads. Mastin is good, but he has me as scum and angrypidgeon as town, which is wrong. Mastin always townreads angrypidgeon unfortunately. But implosion was his top scumread.
I dont think anyone townreads implosion, he is the safest lynch today. I am town.
Mmmmmmmmmmm.
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In post 1915, implosion wrote:I would like someone to make the case for LG-town clear. I'm not entirely sure why he's been written off as town other than the one-way mason thing, but it's felt that way.
I feel ap is town. If someone wants to argue against that i'd also like to see a case for him as scum. I can probably be sold on lg-bacde right now. I can probably be sold on most things right now to be fair though... which is a problem.
I was kind of hoping that being in a pt witha spammerbacde or ap would help me be motivated to post more actively in this game. Unfortunately that dream got stepped on.
You two can just spend the day cross-voting each other. It'll make sure your votes are probably on scum, and if not, at least you can wait until everyone else does all the scumhunting for you.In post 1916, Axxle wrote:I think I like AP scum here but I should reread. His day 1 half push plus super defense on jargo + bob lynch + messiah kill all points there so far.
Maybe klazam for his lylo fearmongering. I mean we all know what will happen if we mislynch here
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1. OKIn post 1926, AngryPidgeon wrote:Mostly to try and get a better read on him. I won't pretend that bulking my church is good from my perspective, but if that were truly my goal I would have recruited someone from your church.In post 1924, Lord God wrote:I expected that you recruited Bcade for a reason.
1) I still want to to think about everything. I could summarize whats happened since Bacde joined:
Tl;DR: We haven't said much of interest. I felt like Bacde might be faking a town read on me in there but Im not convinced either way. Bacde hasn't done much other than ask me about mastin replacing in and who I think is scum.
Spoiler: Summary
2) To be fair, I'm calling everyone scum. At this point Im not going to even remotely pretend that I like the state of my reads. I'm still trying to figure things out in a way that makes sense to me and the figure out where I want to go from there. The thing I am calling out though is that you haven't posted much in the thread. Your D1 content is >50% asserting that Levi is town and not much else. You barely posted Yesterday (did you?) and I don't recall you doing too much on D2 (certainly didn't address mastin) other than call me/Bacde a team and never really explain why that makes sense (it doesn't). Wait, I just reread your (2) and I think I got sidetracked. I don't know what your point is.
3) Then ask Bacde to confirm the messiah conversation. I don't know what there is that you want confirmed.
4) Ask me for what?
2. Yes, you are calling everyone scum.
I think I have about 45ish posts with this one.
Day1 was a plan made in the church PT to see who was chomping at Levi. He was bait, since we both knew him to be town. If I recall correctly, no one really bit as hard as you when I said (and insisted) he was town. That has probably colored my perception of you, but I feel like everytime you do something I feel is from town, you do something else that feels from scum.
Since then has been me trying to figure out if you really are, and if your not, can I trust your posts. Between the two of you 9you & Bcade), you have more that looks like it's from town, but your also the scummier of the two overall.
My point on 2. is that we used the church to get better reads and scumhunt better. I don't feel like you are using yours the same way.
3. Just having confirmation of no lies or lies by omission. Be better if it wasn't Bcade, though.... Mastin was in there, I'll go look if he confirmed your Messiah interactions.
4. *sigh* results of your PT "sorting" of Bcade
Got interrupted and lost my point of responding.
Anyway, Mastin.
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It was. It was also supposed to have more "help" from Levi, but he did his job of drawing votes well enough.In post 1931, AngryPidgeon wrote:The issue (and you cannot really argue this) is that you blindly asserted he was town over and over. I happened to agree with your conclusion, but your posts didn't really indicate WHY you had reached it.In post 1929, Lord God wrote:no one really bit as hard as you when I said (and insisted) he was town
I called your defense of him 'backhanded'. That wasn't to mean "sideways or direct" but rather "lacking in justification". Which you are now claiming was mostly intentional, so you tell me.
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Misread 1845 then.In post 1933, AngryPidgeon wrote:3. Mastin was never in my PT. He was in Kagami's. Abelcain recruited me which got bus'd over to Mastin.In post 1929, Lord God wrote:3. Just having confirmation of no lies or lies by omission. Be better if it wasn't Bcade, though.... Mastin was in there, I'll go look if he confirmed your Messiah interactions.
4. *sigh* results of your PT "sorting" of Bcade
3a. Well, you'll have to count on Bacde for that. Alternatively, I will probably be recruiting you tonight if we are both still alive for obvious greedy reasons and you can be satisfied then.
4. Getting there. Like I said, he hasn't posted anything in a little bit and what he HAS posted hasn't been inspiring either way.
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↑ Klazam wrote:I was townread d1, then scumread lately-(which i dont know why, but ok)
Still waiting on bacde but we need to move on and get discussion going.
At this point the only sure read i have is axxle-town. I think bacde might be town too- him not hammering ap when he could have earlier in the game reads to me as a town move.
That leaves lord god and implosion as scum. Lord god did a good number on me this game, but the more i think about it, i really believe that he is scum. I posted in the pt last night that i was gonna vote lg, and the way lg reacted was really weird to me.
Jargo's interactions with implosion was off, too if i recall correctly. And in the pt, lg seemed to be dismissing me associating implo and jargo. I'll need to look it over again in the morning.
Axxle, why delay implo if youre scumreading me?
OK, how was it weird?
I don't recall dismissing anything, but I'll go look and see what your talking about.
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You replaced in for Bcade, who was so obvious town, and then you read the game and developed reads. You tell me.
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You keep saying this like I think you're scum. Since I made it pretty clear I don't think you are, pretty certain I'm not voting you.
Actually, going to go with my strongest scumread, since I have yet to be talked out of it. And being wrong on AP doesn't mean I'm wrong here.
Vote: Cabd
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One of the 2, apparently. Since I don't think you are, and I don't think Axle is, and implosion can't be (but I lost the reason why again- why not implosion?)
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Would also like to see the night actions stuff since not sure how some of them would interact.
Klazam- I think I had you confused with someone else, but realized it too late after recruiting you. So I had to come up with a way to town read you to make our "all-town" neighborhood effective. The stuf with bipolar was a good excuse.
But otherwise, jargo smacked out the blue kind of hurt. And axxle's arbitrary town read based on claim was not something I expected to get away with, but that got like no pushback at all. Weird stuff.
More later when I 'm not on the phone.
Klazam- I think I had you confused with someone else, but realized it too late after recruiting you. So I had to come up with a way to town read you to make our "all-town" neighborhood effective. The stuf with bipolar was a good excuse.
But otherwise, jargo smacked out the blue kind of hurt. And axxle's arbitrary town read based on claim was not something I expected to get away with, but that got like no pushback at all. Weird stuff.
More later when I 'm not on the phone.
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