Comparative Religion Mafia GAME OVAH
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Hi guys. Reading up in detail, but I already skimmed the thread.
I'm Mastin's PT-buddy. I have recruitment power, but did not recruit Mastin.
My opinion is that my predecessor misplayed my role significantly, probably due to lack of presence. I will very likely partial-claim today once I have my bearings.
I'm Mastin's PT-buddy. I have recruitment power, but did not recruit Mastin.
My opinion is that my predecessor misplayed my role significantly, probably due to lack of presence. I will very likely partial-claim today once I have my bearings.
Quick thing that struck me as odd in my skim~
AP, why are you so ready to disbelieve BPC as a town rolecop, given you appear to be a rolecop miller?
I agree with the point that if he could actually see faction kills, he would be a cop+rolecop, but given the rolenames in the flips, a rolecopping ability would have to be "you get to see all the players' abilities," so it's not a crazy jump to me to think that he might add the factional aspect as a gambit.
AP, why are you so ready to disbelieve BPC as a town rolecop, given you appear to be a rolecop miller?
I agree with the point that if he could actually see faction kills, he would be a cop+rolecop, but given the rolenames in the flips, a rolecopping ability would have to be "you get to see all the players' abilities," so it's not a crazy jump to me to think that he might add the factional aspect as a gambit.
Reiterating, I did not recruit mastin, and am a member of my original church, for which I can recruit. I'm told my slot targeted someone else last night.In post 1128, mastin2 wrote:Btw, will have to check details of my PM later, but I don't think there's harm in claiming that my slot was a recruiter and recruited Quill but got itself converted to a different church which is so utterly devoid of content that I almost missed that there was a PT at all and wondered if the mod had forgotten to add me.
I'm pretty sure we've sorted out what happened, which makes AP almost certainly town unless he performed a very clever gambit. Reviewing my slot's behavior to see if that's plausible.In post 1323, Kagami wrote:Yes.In post 1320, Jargonaut wrote: Welcome Kagami! Just to clarify, you know why mastin got recruited into your church, but not why you didn't get recruited into his?
p-edit: that
If that's so, I don't understand why bacde jumped off of both the axxle and implosion L-1 to vote you. I feel like bacde scum implies one of those L-1s was scum-targeted.In post 1346, AngryPidgeon wrote:The scumteam is probably just BPC/Klazam/Bacde.
Only because of roleIn post 1354, AngryPidgeon wrote:Why do you think he is so town?In post 1351, Kagami wrote:I'm unwilling to vote BPC without a rolecop counterclaim at this stage of the game.
yes.Do you have any interest in Klazam or Bacde?
VOTE: Bacde
Because I just want to be 100% on AP town, but I'm willing to settle with 99%.In post 1359, Jargonaut wrote: Kagami, why did you want to know about people who have night recruits? I have one, but my church isn't empty.
Since I see no reason not to be forthright here, it seems as though you bussed yourself and mastin-slot, and scum roleblocked you. As a result, I recruited mastin, and mastin failed to attempt to recruit you.In post 1363, AngryPidgeon wrote:? I'm slightly concerned about the leaps people are making wrt actions -> alignment in this game. I understand why mastin thinks Im town (I think) and thats about it.In post 1362, Kagami wrote:Because I just want to be 100% on AP town, but I'm willing to settle with 99%.
Some alternative possibilities, which I consider unlikely, but possible:
1. Mastin is scum, and recruited no one.
2. The above is true, and AP is also scum, and this was an elaborate gambit that relied on them knowing I would recruit.
3. Mastin failed to recruit me for other reasons, most likely that there is some priority to cross-recruitment.
Case 3 seems reasonably plausible given the current game-state, but I still townread AP even under those circumstances.
p-edit: in the OP, bus is given preference to RB, therefore mastin being RB'ed implies they RB'ed you implies that you are town.
1. Mastin is scum, and recruited no one.
2. The above is true, and AP is also scum, and this was an elaborate gambit that relied on them knowing I would recruit.
3. Mastin failed to recruit me for other reasons, most likely that there is some priority to cross-recruitment.
Case 3 seems reasonably plausible given the current game-state, but I still townread AP even under those circumstances.
p-edit: in the OP, bus is given preference to RB, therefore mastin being RB'ed implies they RB'ed you implies that you are town.
Because it would otherwise be expending a significant amount of scum power for a gambit that would be uncertain to succeed. As far as I can tell, my slot in no way hinted that it could recruit.In post 1373, Jargonaut wrote:Why did it rely on knowing you would recruit?In post 1369, Kagami wrote:2. The above is true, and AP is also scum, and this was an elaborate gambit that relied on them knowing I would recruit.
...
I'd like to have a chance to read everything through more thoroughly before we lynch anyone, since we have time; I expect to be pretty active tomorrow.
Our religion will be very hard for scum to deal with if I can consistently make the hammer vote, so please don't give anyone the option to self-hammer while I'm not around. As mastin said, recruiting anyone out of our religion is basically a scum-claim for this reason.
Our religion will be very hard for scum to deal with if I can consistently make the hammer vote, so please don't give anyone the option to self-hammer while I'm not around. As mastin said, recruiting anyone out of our religion is basically a scum-claim for this reason.
So my understanding is that:
Day 1
MC recruits AP
Night 1
AP busses
mastin recruits me
I recruit AP
bacde recruits MC
klaz recruits BPC
Levi self-recruits into LG's religion
LG recruits Klazam
BPC recruits Jargonaut and sends a message to AP
implosion recruits Bacde
Jargonaut recruits Bacde
Axxle recruits bacde, fails to delay implosion
MC does nothing
Day 1
MC recruits AP
Night 1
AP busses
mastin recruits me
I recruit AP
bacde recruits MC
klaz recruits BPC
Levi self-recruits into LG's religion
LG recruits Klazam
BPC recruits Jargonaut and sends a message to AP
implosion recruits Bacde
Jargonaut recruits Bacde
Axxle recruits bacde, fails to delay implosion
MC does nothing
We are not 100% on this. All I know is that my slot received no recruitment message.
I've considered the possibility that cross-recruiting (I rec mastin, mastin recs me) is handled thusly:
Some priority is generated between the two recruitment requests (randomly), in our case my recruitment resolved first. Mastin had the opportunity to accept or decline. If he accepts, that's it and his recruitment fails. If he declines, my recruitment fails and instead I would have been recruited to his religion. I asked UT about this, but he gave me a not-terribly-informative response.
^If this is how it works, then there's no reason to believe he (you) were blocked.
The belief was that if there was a roleblock, it would have to be performed by a player who did not recruit. I now have reason to believe there was no roleblock, so that's moot.
I'm just sorting out the gamestate right now. Recruits are extremely relevant to that, since players are recruiting specific slots for a reason.
Aside from recruiting, the bus drive surely happened, as did the bizarre message that BCP sent. I also have questions about mastin's recruitment and recruitment in general that I'll ask her in our PT.
It's as you say, having an action doesn't mean someone is town, but how they use it is. AP's bus-drive, for example, was a very reasonable town usage (swapping himself with a scumread).
I'm just sorting out the gamestate right now. Recruits are extremely relevant to that, since players are recruiting specific slots for a reason.
Aside from recruiting, the bus drive surely happened, as did the bizarre message that BCP sent. I also have questions about mastin's recruitment and recruitment in general that I'll ask her in our PT.
It's as you say, having an action doesn't mean someone is town, but how they use it is. AP's bus-drive, for example, was a very reasonable town usage (swapping himself with a scumread).
I'll explain this later, btw, but first I want to talk to mastin. There's an inconsistency in her PT posts that I want to sort out.In post 1427, Kagami wrote: I now have reason to believe there was no roleblock...
What do those abilities have to do with BPC's?In post 1430, Jargonaut wrote:Gah, phone. Meant to take back the word "confirmed."
Anyway, given that there's a delayer and a bus driver, BPC's message ability looks town.
I need to talk to her about some things in our PT before I seriously consider that.
Her role-claim is superficially alignment neutral, but seems to me like it has far more pro-town utility than pro-scum utility given what we know about the setup so far. It would be pretty difficult to prove that she's not making it up, but there is some evidence that at least half of the claim is true.
There's some train-of-thought inconsistency in the PT that seems funny to me, but I don't see any obvious scum-motivation in it.
Altogether, I'd be pretty sad to lose a follower; this religion is pretty awesome. I haven't told mastin exactly what are powers are.
Her role-claim is superficially alignment neutral, but seems to me like it has far more pro-town utility than pro-scum utility given what we know about the setup so far. It would be pretty difficult to prove that she's not making it up, but there is some evidence that at least half of the claim is true.
There's some train-of-thought inconsistency in the PT that seems funny to me, but I don't see any obvious scum-motivation in it.
Altogether, I'd be pretty sad to lose a follower; this religion is pretty awesome. I haven't told mastin exactly what are powers are.
That alone doesn't make LG town. I don't see how scum-LG would have been able to avoid admitting to knowing that levi is town by the end of the day.
How LG played it rings town to me, though. His trajectory is fairly consistent with "I'm going to scumhunt by seeing who goes after my conf-town neighbor." It's also not obvious to me why an LG-team would kill MC, given that MC was scum's best bet to get rid of an unlynchable without wasting a shot on him themselves.
How LG played it rings town to me, though. His trajectory is fairly consistent with "I'm going to scumhunt by seeing who goes after my conf-town neighbor." It's also not obvious to me why an LG-team would kill MC, given that MC was scum's best bet to get rid of an unlynchable without wasting a shot on him themselves.
He wasn't as forthright when I asked him, interesting.In post 1453, Klazam wrote:from what i was able to clarify from the mod- If Kagami and Mastin(abel)'s recruits both went through on each other, they would have just swapped religions. so clearly something happened to mast in's recruit.
Mastin hypothesized a roleblock in our PT, which I agreed made sense at the time, I wouldn't call it lying.In post 1458, Klazam wrote:Why does role block stay impossible? if it is, that would mean Mastin is 100% scum by virtue of lying.
I agree with AP, something has to give, and it could well be mastin's story. She needs to answer some questions.
p-edit: I think Levi claims to have begun in LG's church.
If LG had just gone the whole day pretending he didn't know levi was town, it would look pretty bad when Levi says "hey guys, LG knows I'm town." If he pulled it off and somehow levi never got suspicious, what would he do about his PT? He'd have to not recruit anyone, since they'd know from the PT that levi was conf-town, and then there'd be a missing recruitment action, or LG would have to claim some night action that might end up getting him in trouble. He'd also have to use the night-kill on what is really a pretty poor target, as well as forfeiting the possibility of a double-vote. Playing along is clearly the better option for scum-LG as well as town-LG.In post 1459, Jargonaut wrote:Yeah I'm wondering the same thing.
How do you figure this?In post 1450, Kagami wrote:That alone doesn't make LG town. I don't see how scum-LG would have been able to avoid admitting to knowing that levi is town by the end of the day.
I want to talk to mastin before I say why I know that AP wasn't blocked.
This is one of my questions that mastin may as well answer out here.In post 1469, Jargonaut wrote:Mastin referenced the fact that my recruit got directed at him
My understanding of mastin's claim is that she was recruited by jargo (she got a bunch of questions and chose to join the religion) and then she joined my religion, since I recruited her (aztec religion is mine). This isn't consistent with bacde's experience of getting to choose among multiple suitors as stated in the rules.mastin wrote:I'm not sure whether it was actually a choice (initial PM said Abelcain could choose to answer questions and not join, but Abelcain chose to answer questions AND join), but I got recruited into a new church, following the aztec god of war.
The NAR on what constitutes "successful targeting" is unclear, and UT has refused to comment on it.
My interpretation is that targeting as a thing may occur before action resolution. i.e. I target mastin with a doctor action, then whenever the action sequence reaches Doctor or Protect [not sure which in UT's chain] that action will resolve if nothing interferes, but if mastin is as claimed, then after I've successfully targeted her, she will target me with a jailkeeping action, which will resolve before my doctoring and thus prevent mastin from receiving protection.
It seems vaguely possible that targeting is unaffected by the bus driver ability, and it's only the resolution that's redirected, and thus no one successfully targeted mastin, but that seems kind of crazy. I asked UT a question trying to sort this out, and he pointed only to the wiki (which doesn't address this) and asked me to stop asking questions. =\
My interpretation is that targeting as a thing may occur before action resolution. i.e. I target mastin with a doctor action, then whenever the action sequence reaches Doctor or Protect [not sure which in UT's chain] that action will resolve if nothing interferes, but if mastin is as claimed, then after I've successfully targeted her, she will target me with a jailkeeping action, which will resolve before my doctoring and thus prevent mastin from receiving protection.
It seems vaguely possible that targeting is unaffected by the bus driver ability, and it's only the resolution that's redirected, and thus no one successfully targeted mastin, but that seems kind of crazy. I asked UT a question trying to sort this out, and he pointed only to the wiki (which doesn't address this) and asked me to stop asking questions. =\
Could be that targeting occurs after bussing then, but that means you should have jailed BPCIn post 1537, mastin2 wrote:Can't be true, because if that were true, there'd literally be no such thing as unsuccessfully targeting me.In post 1534, Kagami wrote:My interpretation is that targeting as a thing may occur before action resolution. i.e. I target mastin with a doctor action, then whenever the action sequence reaches Doctor or Protect [not sure which in UT's chain] that action will resolve if nothing interferes, but if mastin is as claimed, then after I've successfully targeted her, she will target me with a jailkeeping action, which will resolve before my doctoring and thus prevent mastin from receiving protection.
The only way mastin could have recruited me is if there's a second bus driver who switched me and implosion, and implosion hasn't claimed to have been recruited for whatever reason.
This also implies that UT put a second bus driver in the game, which is just an awful idea.
I guess he could have made a special "recruit blocker" that blocks only recruits and is super secretly not included in the OP's NAR, but that would also be pretty awful.
This also implies that UT put a second bus driver in the game, which is just an awful idea.
I guess he could have made a special "recruit blocker" that blocks only recruits and is super secretly not included in the OP's NAR, but that would also be pretty awful.
mastin doesn't seem to have realized that this explanation doesn't fit the NAR of this game until I point it out deep in page 2. I only figured it out myself when I asked if it was possible to recruit a reflexive jailkeeper and got a yes response.
(you can see why UT asked me to stop asking mechanics questions >.>)
(you can see why UT asked me to stop asking mechanics questions >.>)
Look, I didn't get a recruitment or anything suggesting that you attempted to recruit me.
The NAR of this game is very clear that bus driving is the only thing that can mess with a recruitment. We have more than enough evidence that AP bussed himself and you, unless you think BPC, AP, jorg and I are a four-man scumteam.
Do you really believe UT put two bus drivers in the game? And that bus driver chose to swap me with Implosion (I think he's the only one who isn't confirmed to be in a non-solo religion other than AP)?
I can imagine various scenarios in which scum!mastin thought she could get away with this; the simplest being that she planned to claim that she was roleblocked, not realizing the game had an unusual NAR (notice that
The NAR of this game is very clear that bus driving is the only thing that can mess with a recruitment. We have more than enough evidence that AP bussed himself and you, unless you think BPC, AP, jorg and I are a four-man scumteam.
Do you really believe UT put two bus drivers in the game? And that bus driver chose to swap me with Implosion (I think he's the only one who isn't confirmed to be in a non-solo religion other than AP)?
I can imagine various scenarios in which scum!mastin thought she could get away with this; the simplest being that she planned to claim that she was roleblocked, not realizing the game had an unusual NAR (notice that
no one
appears to have noticed this).Mastin has claimed to recruit me. I received no indication that there was a recruit attempt, and I clearly was not recruited. I'm not recruitment immune or anything like that.
What should have happened is that I went to her religion, and she joined mine.
She claimed that AP must have been roleblocked (directed to her), which I thought was a pretty good explanation at the time. As I asked questions to UT about mastin's claimed jailkeeping ability (I wondered how I was able to recruit her), it became clear that you couldn't block a recruitment. The answer for why is the NAR in the OP, which apparently no one noticed.
Thus mastin lied about having attempted to recruit me. I can think of multiple reasons for doing so as scum, but nothing plausible for how this happened as town.
What should have happened is that I went to her religion, and she joined mine.
She claimed that AP must have been roleblocked (directed to her), which I thought was a pretty good explanation at the time. As I asked questions to UT about mastin's claimed jailkeeping ability (I wondered how I was able to recruit her), it became clear that you couldn't block a recruitment. The answer for why is the NAR in the OP, which apparently no one noticed.
Thus mastin lied about having attempted to recruit me. I can think of multiple reasons for doing so as scum, but nothing plausible for how this happened as town.
Hey guys, I see the thread is open.
Firstly, I was immune to all actions last night. The verbiage prob means even recruits. I see there are other claims for the no kill, but this would also have stopped any kills on me.
UT told me something that's pretty critical to explaining yesterday. Mastin's role pm did indeed tell her that she was a reflexive jailkeeper, however the definition of jailkeeper was not the normal one. Being "jailkept" by mastin's power meant that you were protected and roleSTOPPED (not blocked), and that her role PM apparently wasn't clear on this, which is something I'd like to talk about post-game.
As a result, our cross-recruit caused me to "immediately" become rolestopped and her recruit on me failed. This is also why the message from BPC went through. Not sure if AP's ability triggered it too, but based on a slightly unclear statement, it didn't and that anything that targeted AP simply targeted Mastin instead.
Firstly, I was immune to all actions last night. The verbiage prob means even recruits. I see there are other claims for the no kill, but this would also have stopped any kills on me.
UT told me something that's pretty critical to explaining yesterday. Mastin's role pm did indeed tell her that she was a reflexive jailkeeper, however the definition of jailkeeper was not the normal one. Being "jailkept" by mastin's power meant that you were protected and roleSTOPPED (not blocked), and that her role PM apparently wasn't clear on this, which is something I'd like to talk about post-game.
As a result, our cross-recruit caused me to "immediately" become rolestopped and her recruit on me failed. This is also why the message from BPC went through. Not sure if AP's ability triggered it too, but based on a slightly unclear statement, it didn't and that anything that targeted AP simply targeted Mastin instead.
^yepIn post 1708, AngryPidgeon wrote:See, I think a town player would have said: "I definitely do not believe your claim. I didn't try to kill anyone last night".In post 1705, Jargonaut wrote:I definitely do not believe your claim. You claim to have4different abilities, one of which is is an immediate guilty should (any) of your PT partners be scum.