Mini 1579: The Great Flavor Caper (Game Over)

[Mirhawk]

Vote: Bacde

Yeah I'm not going to justify this.

[Mirhawk]

I'm comfortable with my vote. Bacde's already trying to strongarm the rest of the town.

[Mirhawk]

And Chaoslord segways into manipulation in post two.

Unvote

Vote: Chaoslord

@Bacde - You mistake my intent. Whats really important here is that everyone understands they should listen to me instead of you.

[Mirhawk]

it wasn't his RVS that gave him away. There are some other patterns there too that are interesting.

What is this?

I would also like an explanation of this. It looks like you were expecting bacde to continue the push and provide the reasons for you.

[Mirhawk]

@Knife
What about Yankees post makes "outstanding"? It's a good point but I'm not seeing as how anything in it is indicative of anything other then JB not thinking before he posts.

You're obviously getting a hard scum vibe from it, mind explaining why YOU think JB's scum or are you just trying to float with the current town attitude.

[Mirhawk]

Right

[Mirhawk]

Chaoslord is cautious, that pretty much sums the whole thing up. Also, we both know what Chaoslords response will be and you'll have to unvote him afterwards anyways so why drag it out?

I agree that Reinoe's vote on bacade is weak, but why is he your back up vote?

[Mirhawk]

@mirhawk
what are your thoughts on Elyse and Sharpest?

The tone of Elyse's posts suggests a soft attack on you without taking a solid position. Her vote on chaoslord was ridiculous, especially seeing as how she told him exactly how to remove it. If feels to me like she was looking for a place to temporarily place her vote so she wouldn't have to commit to one of the serious wagons.

Sharpest tried to slip onto Joshes wagon using yankee's reasoning, and when I called him on it he popped smoke and provided nebulous "reasons". I think he had no actual reason to get on that wagon and was trying to get in on the action because either josh looked vulnerable, or he wanted some separation between the two of them.

@Josh
Ignoring slandaars repeated requests for you to answer that question isn't going to make it go away.

[Mirhawk]

@Titus
I resent the implication that everyone should be reading as much into your crazytown scumreads as you do.

Besides even if slandaar was purposely ignoring reinoe's question, so what? What would be the scum motivation for doing that?

[Mirhawk]

That's stupid.

I'm pushing for an answer from JB because I care what his answer is.

Conversely I don't care what slandaar's answer is.

[Mirhawk]

@reinoe
No you're pretty much dead wrong, I know for a fact that both slandaar and I are both interested, but that's not what this is about anyway.

Titus says that both Chaos and I should have pressed slandaar for an answer to your question. It's not my question and I don't particularly care what the answer is so why should I be pushing him to answer? Since you and Titus are the ones who appear to be interested in his answer its your responsibility to continue pushing for it, not mine.

@Titus
It makes perfect sense, you're just being deliberately thick.

I don't care about slandaar's view, I do care about JB's answer to that question though. Those are quite obviously two separate things.

[Mirhawk]

Maybe I'd care a little more if your question hadn't been so inane.

[Mirhawk]

@Sharpest
I think we've had a breakdown in communication. I was under the impression that the "great post" of yankee's that you were voting because of was post 55. Your vote isn't nearly as bad if its taken in context to post 48.

@Titus
I don't care what slandaar does with the information. I seconded the question because I wanted it answered. If you can't tell the difference between those then that's your problem, not mine.

I'm also curious as to how this is a defense of slandaar. I'm pretty sure the closest I've come to that is stating that I don't care if slandaar answers reinoes question or not.

[Mirhawk]

No particular reason.

I left it there originally while I waited to see what way sharpest and JB were going to jump, but neither of them has done anything to warrant me moving it yet.

If you're asking about my opinion on chaos, it that he's likely town.

[Mirhawk]

no he is defending josh... including calling the question of Josh, inane, please try and keep up. His whole vote on me was for my hoping on Josh. I do not see how he is defending Saalandar... guess we read it differently.

Umm no. Pretty sure I'm not defending JB.

The question that I called inane was reinoe's.

I also never voted for you, and I'm fairly certain I implied that I thought you could be bussing your scumbuddy at some point.

[Mirhawk]

Vote: Josh B

That's not what I want to know. I want to know specifically WHY you voted for bacade this game. I don't really care what he did in that other game unless it directly relates to why you voted for him in this one.


reinoe's using negative reinforcement to make things that aren't all that scummy look worse then they are.

Titus does this in pretty much every post.

[Mirhawk]

@TSO
What are your thoughts on Elise?

@Titus
Have you played against Slandaar when he was town?

[Mirhawk]

Its perfectly possible to be manipulative in a non deliberate manner.

It was fairly unimportant, and he fessed as soon as I called him on it instead of trying to pretend it didn't happen so I'd call this pretty small potatoes.

@Titus
Slandaar was scum in deaths diner.

[Mirhawk]

Manipulation is at its heart just a adjusting the way you say something so it will be received in the most favorable way possible. Have you ever known someone who consistently downplays the achievements of others or phrases the stories they tell to make themselves look better then the other people involved. It's not like these people are purposely trying to continually make the people around them look worse, its subconscious, that's just the way they talk.

To be fair this isn't what chaos did. He made a soft scumpush on bacde which included a mild attack on bacde's credability.

I considered it relatively minor, so when I called him on it I wasn't very serious.

His backdown seemed pretty legitimate so I dropped it.

[Mirhawk]

He never did, I was paraphrasing. What he did say was that if he did manipulate that it was unintentional.

Don't try to drag me into this, I think chaos is town.

[Mirhawk]

Now wait a minute. You say he "never did" what, exactly? Never confessed? You did say he "fessed." So if he fessed as you say so, would you please link that post for us please?

First he said it wasn't his intent to manipulate. He later in that post said "If I came off manipulative then that was not was I intended at all." His first sentence doesn't mesh with his third.

As I said, I was paraphrasing. So no, he did not directly admit to manipulation. Rather he allowed for the possibility that he had been doing some.

[Mirhawk]

JB's lurking is paying off, as it appears that now half the town has forgotten about him. In post 40 you claim your vote was on other "patterns" and not his RVS vote. Why did you say that seeing as how you've decided that the reason now is completely his RVS vote?

Bacde is fine, I'm more worried about reinoe and Elise. I get scum vibes off both of them.

[Mirhawk]

Except bacde and Slandaar aren't attacking each other, you're the only one who's voted for pacman so far, and the only real buddying I've seen is between you and reinoe. I don't think these games are as close a comparison as you think.

Did bacde say those things about pacman? Cause I don't remember that.

Titus, whats your position on JB? Half the discussions in town revolve around him but I don't think you've touched him.

[Mirhawk]

Saying Josh B hasn't done bullshit is scummy

This is stupid and untrue.

Also, JB hasn't done shit. He made a scummy early vote and tried to wave it off with meta and lurking.

[Mirhawk]

No he hasn't. Wanting evidence is not scummy.

Are you on acid? This isn't the reason anyone's voting him.

[Mirhawk]

There might be substance somewhere in Wakes big ass post, but It's hidden pretty well behind heaps of bad logic.

[Mirhawk]

Wakes pushing a case on Chaos based on the dictionary definition of the word manipulative and the assumption that people cant manipulate someone unintentionally.

Which is bullshit.

He is then later surprised when someone calls him on it being bullshit and assumes that because that person is disagreeing with him they must be scum.

I think you're only defending him because he thinks bacde is scum, which incidentally is the same reason I think you're defending JB.

[Mirhawk]

So JB decides to stop pushing players who'll fight back and go right for a lurker.

And what was that non-RVS reason for voting bacde? I don't think I heard you.

@Slandaar
Your thoughts on Elise and Wake?

[Mirhawk]

I'll keep it in mind,

but it wasn't his RVS that gave him away. There are some other patterns there too that are interesting

.

In case it wasn't clear this is what I was referring to, and have been referring to the entire time. So no I don't feel like this issue is particularly resolved

Also, if you feel that me and knives are scum why are you voting slandaar?

[Mirhawk]

@wake & mirhawk
what do you think about slandaar's claim in light of TSO's speculations.

I was never particularly convinced that lynching slandaar was a good idea in the first place, his claim doesn't change that.

TSO's theory has to do with the interactions between players, seeing as how I'm one of the players in question I can't say as I feel it's particularly worrisome. Besides if there are two scumteams then the first time we hit scum we'll likely see some indication that there is a separate team.

In any case I still want to string up JB.

[Mirhawk]

Knives case is built out of moonbeams. I've only ever asked you one question, and you still haven't answered it to my satisfaction.

[Mirhawk]

I probably won't be able to answer it "to your satisfaction".

After stalling for five days? You're right you probably won't.

[Mirhawk]

@Titus
I post every day, but I work ten hour days and phones aren't allowed on site (which is semantics I suppose as I detest posting from my phone). Your guys peak activity happens while I'm at work.

Unvote

I'm undecided as to the truth of the claim, but there's more to be gained by giving him the benefit of the doubt then not. Also there's a pretty good chance of scum just killing him tonight anyways.

I'm undecided on wake, my scumread on him was dependent on Titus being scum, and my scumread on Titus was dependent on JB being scum. It should also be noted that as soon as JB claimed Doc Titus's games improved by a fair margin. Her current play is much better then it was even yesterday.

@Wake
Your review of pacman was rather bland, is there a reason you only reviewed pacman? Why not do a player for whom there was more to go on? Also I was under the impression from your post before that one that you would be posting your thoughts on multiple players.

@TSO
What do you think about some of the players who aren't bacde, slandaar, titus, Josh, or SKOT? I've seen you say a fair bit about them, but I'm not sure what your opinions on the other half of the town is.

@reinoe
Pretty much the same question I asked TSO, except I'm curious as to your opinion on SKOT.

[Mirhawk]

I'm inclined to believe Wake. Since backup cop is dependent on the presence of an actual cop and with two PR's already claimed there would be less chance of that, it's not a stellar fakeclaim.

Massclaim is an option but I would prefer to suss this out without resorting to that.

If we consider Slandaar and JB which is easier to confirm? I'm thinking Slandaar. Kill patterns could indicate if he is what he says he is, Docs are nearly impossible to verify.

Alternatively we could lynch neither and wait for the hypothetical cop to tell us which is lying. Though this comes with the disadvantage of the cop being NK'd as there is a smaller pool of players for the scum to choose from to find them seeing as how we already have at least a pair of claims.

[Mirhawk]

Nevermind, unless we claim we wont know if wakes lying or not.

[Mirhawk]

I think several of you are thinking it, but I'll bring it up anyway. We might as well leave all the claimed PR's for today, some of the doubts associated with them may resolve itself given time anyways.

@Slandaar
I could buy TSO scum, I haven't seen anything out of him that make me feel like he's particularly town. But by the same token I haven't seen anything that makes me feel particularly like he's scum either. Do you have anything on him not meta related? I've never played with him before so I'm not sure what his regular behavior is like.

I could go for Elise, I've had my eye on her since that chaoslord thing at the beginning of the game. I don't think any of her subsequent behavior is particularly scummy, but I don't think she's looking for scum very hard either. That business between her and reinoe had the smell of trying to look busy while avoiding the other wagons.

Vote: Elyse

Titus is pretty loud and vocal, she's also elicited a lots of mixed responses from the rest of the town so I think there's good odds of her getting copped, viged, or NK'd at some point. So there's no need for us to vote for her.

@Wake
This is kinda unrelated to the game. In one of my first games on site the IC in my game (I think it was Nacho) told me that while sometimes longer posts are required, keeping your posts shorter makes other players more likely to stay interested in them.

Another thing that might help is I've noticed is that lots of your longer posts are quite dense. If you split your post up into smaller chunks with empty spaces in between it can make it easier to read. I know when I have four pages of posts to catch up on and I run across a really dense one I don't pay as close of attention as I should.

[Mirhawk]

That's fine, just as long as you keep up on the later stuff too.

Whats your take on the Elyse - Titus throwdown?

[Mirhawk]

*Reveals

Annihilator Beam

*

My top three are Elise, Josh B, and wake.

Elyse - Her initial push on chaos felt fake to me. I suspected at the time that she was trying to fly under the radar, nothing she's done since then has made me think she intends to do otherwise. I've seen no indication she's actually trying to find scum, and the reason I don't like her push on reinoe is because I feel she's using it to avoid commenting on the rest of the town again.

Wake - Initial case on unintentional manipulation was malarkey, I still think he was only pushing it to see who would bite. He's been playing the apathy card pretty hard and has used it to avoid taking any hard stances on pretty much anyone.

Josh B - Weakest scumread and the most in flux. I still don't like his early play, I think he was deliberately avoiding a concrete answer to my question because he didn't have one. May also have been lurking to avoid talking about it. Conversely, since he claimed (and thus started posting more) I've found myself liking several of his posts and have a much better opinion of him. The Doc claim also makes me pause.


The two players I suspect the least are almost certainly bacde and Chaoslord.

I can't really think of anything on bacde other then the fact that he doesn't scumhunt nearly as much as his votecount suggests

Chaos is a lot easier. He's lurked a lot more in the second half of the day, and I frankly don't really know where he stands on most of the players in town. I get the impression he's playing it really safe.

Ironically enough Titus manages to be an honorable mention on both my scumreads AND my least suspected players. I can't keep my opinion oh her steady, as she manages to say something to make it jump back and forth every other page.

As for the townblock, I don't really know where Titus was going with that. Two players who think each other are town don't need some magical title to not vote for each other. Personally I think the power of never having reinoe disagree with her is going to her head.

As for your last question, I've only played with Titus once before and I can't talk about it.

[Mirhawk]

Fine, I'm tired of arguing about this anyway.

VT. Popcorn Titus.

@EPM
Why do you think I'm scum?

@Elyse
If you want people to stop thinking your scum how about you stop acting like scum. Why are you still pushing that shit with reinoe? It's at best a dead end.

[Mirhawk]

This is like the 5th wagon you've ran up. Calm the fuck down, lynch TYR the fuck up.

This is quite literally the worst person we could lynch today.

[Mirhawk]

Titus, I have at no point seen anything that makes me think that slandaar is going to let you tell him who to kill. And again, Yankee is a shitty kill.

[Mirhawk]

Your motive is and was fairly transparent Pacman.

[Mirhawk]

Right, accusing reinoe of buddying Titus, then switching it to Titus buddying reinoe when nobody bit on the reinoe angle is the height of scumhunting.

This vote on me is the first legitimate case I've seen you push all game.

TSO are you scum? Because every time you say something I think "that's an awful lot like something I would expect scum to say".

[Mirhawk]

Titus stop playing up the leashing. We all know the reason you want a leash on Slandaar is because he's probably going to shoot you tonight.

@Slandaar
You think Titus is scum, that's fine. Who do you think her team are? Does this mean you think Elyse is town?

[Mirhawk]

@Slandaar
Yeah I've gotten around to reading it now.

Your town play in that game is very similar to how you're playing in this one.

Ironically, Titus's play is pretty much nothing like this game at all.

Pacman was also in that game as town. His play has a similar tone to the other game, but he scumhunted more in that game and posted far more frequently.

[Mirhawk]

@Pacman
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29925
This is the game Titus linked me to.

[Mirhawk]

There's a lot of hemming and hawing going on here when it should be fairly apparent whats actually going to happen.

There's not enough support to run Titus up today, so that's not happening. So unless we want to lynch a lurker, (which by the way will have to be yankee, which will give us no information) we more or less have to go for Elyse. Unless of course anyone thinks we should go for a claimed PR instead, which also isn't happening because of a lack of agreement on not only which of them is the scummiest, but whether or not it would better to wait to see if the PR situation resolves itself overnight anyways.

Also, I find TSO's continued insistence that we should pick someone else because we have "lots" of time scummy seeing as how he doesn't seem inclined to say why Elyse is a bad lynch or who we should lynch instead (aside from suggesting a lurker which is a frankly unhelpful statement).

[Mirhawk]

Titus... what the fuck?

What exactly are you threatening Wake with, why are you even pushing on him?

[Mirhawk]

I'm back, will post as soon as I'm caught up.

[Mirhawk]

you got ran to L-1 as an SK d1

you have no hope of winning

how does it feel

Wow

----
How is Chaoslord being townread? He's been oppertunistic all game by only making safe votes other people are already supporting, and he avoids commenting on pretty much anything important. Also as I recall it bacde wasn't so much defending him as he was attacking Wake's case on him.

Also Reinoe is yet again trying to run up wake over that backup cop / deputy business. Despite the fact that it's wrong. Backup is a modifier on any role, and it's not outdated. Deputy is either a flavor name for backup cop, or another role altogether. You keep claiming to get this stuff from the Wiki, but honestly none of that shit you keep saying is in there.
What exactly makes reinoe town?
Was it the fact that he never once questioned the way Titus excessively townread him?
Or how he parroted her all day?
Or perhaps it was the omgus on Elyse?
Or the lack of scumhunting all of day one?

I'm inclined to believe JB's Doc claim. A doc makes sense with two scum kills per night, not to mention that three scum and a SK would be fairly heinous, but two scum with a roleblocker is perfectly feasible.

I am in fact inclined to not disbelieve any of the PR claims, including the possible dayvig.

Vote: Reinoe

[Mirhawk]

If there was a town doc other then Josh SKOT would be alive.

[Mirhawk]

So Multishot Dayvig, Cop, Doctor, Backup Cop, Serial Killer, and possibly a mafia Roleblocker.

I don't think so, someone's been telling lies.

I think I would be inclined to beleive JB. With all the killing roles floating around it would make sense for the scumteam to be small, which means they would probably get a PR, and the roleblocker would explain why SKOT died.

Unvote
Vote: Wake

This means I'm likely wrong about Reinoe though.

[Mirhawk]

Somewhat, though I am curious as to why you never considered Titus might be buddying you. You just sort of went along with it.

[Mirhawk]

The reasons come down to balancing. A multishot dayvig won't be scum in a game this size, especially if there's a serial killer as well.

The serial killer (not to mention the dayvig) makes for a quicker trip to lylo, so I figure there must be a smaller scumteam. Two scum is weak though so they probably have a PR of their own, I'm thinking Roleblocker as it would also substantiate the reason JB couldn't protect SKOT. Not to mention that a doctor makes sense with two anti-town killing roles and meshes nicely with a town Dayvig.

That gives town a Cop, Doctor, and Multishot Dayvig. Which is actually fairly powerful.

Backup cop is a weakish role in that it requires the cop to die before use. When the dayvig was oneshot I was willing to buy into it, but not with a multishot.

[Mirhawk]

Boon who are you? Are you in this game?

[Mirhawk]

Serves me right for falling into the pit of setup speculation. Before boon fired the second shot I wanted Reinoe, with Chaos as my backup. I don't think I would have caught JB though. I had pretty much cemented the idea in my mind of having a doc in this setup. Should have stuck to my guns I guess.

Losing TSO was a bad hit, him and boon were the only players I thought of as Obvious town.

Congrats to scum for pulling it off.

[Mirhawk]

Also Phok did a great job in the modding, the balance was a little swingy but it was fun nevertheless.